Double tall mocha and a vaporizer bowl, no whip cream

November 16, 2009 10:07 PM

America’s First Cannabis Cafe Opens(at 4:20). [Via]
posted by Burhanistan (119 comments total)

I like how this article seems to stop in the middle of a thought.
posted by Electrius at 10:11 PM on November 16 [7 favorites]

If this lasts 30 days it will be a great month for America. If I was an employee, I'd have my lawyer on speed dial.
posted by Crotalus at 10:19 PM on November 16

Not to be a buzzkill, but Rumpspankers had some really interesting soups. I'll miss it.
posted by mumkin at 10:22 PM on November 16

Huh. There's a place around here (L.A.) which serves coffee and sells MJ, and has been open for a few months now.
posted by blenderfish at 10:26 PM on November 16

this shit with the inside jokes/references, double entendres, puns, etc. in the marijuana community has fucking got to stop. it's so boring, and does nothing to help legitimize their cause.
posted by rainperimeter at 10:41 PM on November 16 [31 favorites]

Isn't coffee bad for health?, they ought to look into closing them up.
posted by rainy at 10:41 PM on November 16 [2 favorites]

If this lasts 30 days it will be a great month for America. If I was an employee, I'd have my lawyer on speed dial.

Why? Medical pot has been legal in California for like a decade now, and I assume for a while in Oregon too. And coffee is freely available in both states. So I'm not quite sure what the big deal is.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:44 PM on November 16

If you like to get stoned and sit around with people in severe pain, this place is for you.
posted by twoleftfeet at 10:44 PM on November 16 [16 favorites]

this shit with the inside jokes/references, double entendres, puns, etc. in the marijuana community has fucking got to stop. it's so boring, and does nothing to help legitimize their cause.

Chill pills will be sold across the street at Portland's brand-new Chillax Cafe.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:46 PM on November 16 [19 favorites]

Also, the people who really need medical pot tend to be too sick to get out of bed, let alone go to a stoner cafe. So if anything this is ammo for the "they don't really need it, they just want to get high" crowd.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:47 PM on November 16 [2 favorites]

If you like to get stoned and sit around with people in severe pain, this place is for you.

So it's like my doctor's office, but with better music?
posted by Avenger at 10:50 PM on November 16 [5 favorites]

this shit with the inside jokes/references, double entendres, puns, etc. in the marijuana community has fucking got to stop. it's so boring, and does nothing to help legitimize their cause.

Well I don't personally agree with it, but if they want to celebrate Hitler's birthday that's their choice.
posted by drjimmy11 at 10:51 PM on November 16 [2 favorites]

Also, the people who really need medical pot tend to be too sick to get out of bed, let alone go to a stoner cafe. So if anything this is ammo for the "they don't really need it, they just want to get high" crowd.

The hell? Some people who really need medical pot tend to be too sick to get out of bed, but some people who need medical pot tend to be people undergoing chemo who get debilitating nausea and vomiting after a treatment. Those people go to and from those treatments while not in a bed.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 10:55 PM on November 16 [2 favorites]

Also, the people who really need medical pot tend to be too sick to get out of bed, let alone go to a stoner cafe. So if anything this is ammo for the "they don't really need it, they just want to get high" crowd.

"The people who really need medical pot" have cancer, AIDS, glaucoma, and chronic pain, among other things. None of which necessarily make you "too sick to get out of bed, let alone go to a stoner cafe" -- these are long-term, day-to-day conditions.

If these people can get up to go to the pharmacy, they can get up and go to "a stoner cafe". You don't stand outside the pharmacy telling people that they "don't really need" their medication because they're strong enough to stand in line at Walgreens, do you? I hope not, but judging by your comments here, I can't be sure...
posted by vorfeed at 11:04 PM on November 16 [16 favorites]

If this lasts 30 days it will be a great month for America. If I was an employee, I'd have my lawyer on speed dial.

Why? Medical pot has been legal in California for like a decade now, and I assume for a while in Oregon too. And coffee is freely available in both states. So I'm not quite sure what the big deal is.

I think the big deal is that it's still illegal under federal law (and has been for decades). The only things that's changed is Eric Holder has told his department not to prosecute people for medical marijuana possession in states where it's legal; that theoretically could change whenever Eric Holder wants it to change without warning. Then the Feds could come busting in the door to arrest all those terrible, dangerous criminals.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 11:06 PM on November 16

I'm betting that the bakery mentioned in the article is pretty happy to have this contract. I see this as win-win for everyone involved. Seriously, who cares if people want to use their medically-approved weed in a private establishment? I've never heard of people getting really belligerent or committing violent crimes while stoned, so what exactly is the "downside" to this? If it's getting people out of their homes and into society where they can interact with other people, it'll keep them happier and healthier. I see that as all "upside."
posted by heyho at 11:14 PM on November 16 [2 favorites]

this shit with the inside jokes/references, double entendres, puns, etc. in the marijuana community has fucking got to stop. it's so boring, and does nothing to help legitimize their cause.

How many comments before someone gets on their high horse about the 4:20 reference, I asks myself as soon as I read this post. Five. Normally I would just bypass this, as I do most of the condescending finger-wagging that will inevitably go on in any post about pot. I certainly haven't had much time or use for recreational cannabis smoking in quite a long time and I never had a lot of affection for the "lifestyle" side of it.

But you know, I always read these comments about how the stoners hurt the cause with their insistence on, you know, getting high. And what a bunch of shit that is. Without stoners there would be no cause, without stoners marijuana, medical, industrial, or otherwise, would have sunk like a stone below the surface of the sea of public discourse many decades ago. The number of straight players, be they doctors, politicians, academics or scientists, who have been willing to stick their neck out one iota over the absurd legal status of marijuana has always been a tiny minority. The "marijuana community" had dragged every single concession it's gotten out of with straight society with negligible assistance from outsiders and if they want to have the occasional giggle along the way, hey, I say fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. The idea that stoner goofiness is what's holding back the cause of the legalization of whatever aspect of marijuana, now that's a real joke.

I'll grant you it is boring, though, but fuck, you know, that's weed for you.

(not stoned or otherwise intoxicated, just tired and grumpy)
posted by nanojath at 11:25 PM on November 16 [40 favorites]

fuckin'a nanojath, why don't you take a hit off this spliff. your tam is on too tight bro.
posted by rainperimeter at 11:35 PM on November 16 [1 favorite]

Isn't it America's SECOND canabis cafe. Last time I was in Vancouver i stumbled across one that had been opened for years
posted by MrMerlot at 11:37 PM on November 16 [1 favorite]

fibromyalgia? Hmmm.
posted by Ron Thanagar at 11:37 PM on November 16

Isn't it America's SECOND canabis cafe. Last time I was in Vancouver

Yeah you go ask a Canadian if they're "American" and see how they react.
posted by nanojath at 11:43 PM on November 16 [11 favorites]

your tam is on too tight

Yeah, nothing personal, brother, I just need sleep.
posted by nanojath at 11:44 PM on November 16

Isn't it America's SECOND canabis cafe. Last time I was in Vancouver

No, you're thinking of Vancouver's Brah Bistro. Totally different.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:14 AM on November 17

I was at something very close to this on Saturday, the Valencia Cafe on Valencia and Duboce in SF. It has a regular cafe storefront; I didn't even realize it was a dispensary as well until recently. In fact, I was parked in front if, looking at the green awning with the two caduceuses and being perplexed. "That really looks like a weed club" I said to myself. Turns out there's a club in the back.

Anyway, this concept sounds cool and I hope it spreads. Don't like it? This is America, personal freedom, FU, etc.
posted by MattMangels at 12:17 AM on November 17

How many comments before someone gets on their high horse about the 4:20 reference, I asks myself as soon as I read this post.

What if you really needed the marijuana for, you know, the medical reasons you've been licensed for, but didn't really want to associate with the culture.. isn't that what these sorts of places are supposed to be for? To feel better with medication but not make yourself into an outisder?
posted by setanor at 12:23 AM on November 17

What if you really needed the marijuana for, you know, the medical reasons you've been licensed for, but didn't really want to associate with the culture.

Presumably, you won't go to this cafe in that case. I don't think attendance is compulsory for everyone in Portland using medical marijuana. Those people would presumably get their pot from another source, and use it at home, alone.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:41 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

Presumably, you won't go to this cafe in that case.

I really felt this was an accurate portrayal of the use of these cafes:

If it's getting people out of their homes and into society where they can interact with other people, it'll keep them happier and healthier.

Where is the room for subculture? Do you think the people that really need this medication and really need this socialization would rather have these references and would rather have all this "Oddly Enough"-baiting novelty than just a place to get together and be sociable as normal with others who happen to need the same thing?
posted by setanor at 12:51 AM on November 17

Ok, so, I don't think I'm gonna get an answer to this on metafilter, but I guess I'll just put it out there anyway:

What good does locking up people caught with several ounces of marijuana for a period of years do? Why is society a better place after that happens than it was before?

I promise I will engage any answer to that question without swearing and with only a minimal amount of sarcasm.
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 12:53 AM on November 17

it's so boring, and does nothing to help legitimize their cause.
This comment could apply equally to Marijuana smokers.

Personally, I think this'll continue for a few months, and then it'll get closed down. It could be argued that this is a small step against prohibition, but it's more likely that it'll be used as a poster child for arguments against any kind of relaxed legalisation.

Doublewhiskeycokenoice: I'm sorely tempted to take your challenge.
posted by seanyboy at 1:10 AM on November 17

So, not the first Coffee/Weed place in America, let alone North America. They're probably not so big on research; then again, none of the potheads I knew in College were, either. :)
posted by blenderfish at 1:25 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

What good does locking up people caught with several ounces of marijuana for a period of years do?

It enhances the bottom line of private prisons, allowing the CEO to send his children to expensive private schools where they will have enough upper-class connections to not only get completely fucked up every weekend but also dodge any possession charges. It also enables the private prison to funnel funding to "tough on crime" congresspersons, enabling them to send their children to expensive private schools where they will have enough upper-class connections to not only get completely fucked up every weekend but also dodge any possession charges. Those children can then grow up and work in the political machine that churns out more "tough on crime" congresspersons who can push through tougher penalties for minor possession charges, thus completing the circle of life.
posted by cmonkey at 1:30 AM on November 17 [37 favorites]

Also, the people who really need medical pot tend to be too sick to get out of bed, let alone go to a stoner cafe. So if anything this is ammo for the "they don't really need it, they just want to get high" crowd.

Now tell us about the difference between women who "really need" abortions and women who just don't want kids.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:42 AM on November 17 [11 favorites]

. . . and does nothing to help legitimize their cause.

Which part of the cause has been delegitimized?

What I see is 14 states with active medical marijuana programs/laws and actual real legalization being discussed in serious circles for the first time in my short life.
posted by IvoShandor at 2:27 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

Recent polls show that 44% of the US population support legalization. The AMA recently put out a statement calling for the reclassification of marijuana so that it's no longer a schedule 1 substance. In California there are various plans to get a "legalize, tax, and control" initiative on the 2010 ballot.
posted by Rhomboid at 2:30 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

To add to Rhomboid's comment above - Nate Silver had an interesting take on all this legalization momentum back in February.
posted by IvoShandor at 2:36 AM on November 17

Dude, where's our order?

Oh sorry dude, I totally like forgot, what did you order?

Ummm...
posted by mattoxic at 2:56 AM on November 17

You don't often get to see a true "tipping point" occurring in real time, but it seems that it's happening now with the normalization of marijuana use and country-wide prospects for legalization (...but maybe that's just the weed talking).
posted by Auden at 3:11 AM on November 17

Serious question: what sort of hoops would a California resident need to jump through to gain admittance?
posted by ryanrs at 3:12 AM on November 17

I think it's a bad idea to try to use medical marijuana laws as cover for recreational use. It does tend to delegitimize the medical argument. I thought this from digby was funny:

The real problem here in LA is that the city council pretty much punted on the entire issue and allowed dispensaries to crop up every couple of blocks --- and frankly, the pot sellers were so in-your-face that it was only a matter of time before the church ladies insisted that someone put a stop to it. (When "Dr Kush" opened on the Venice boardwalk with bikini clad girls passing out cards in front yelling "the Dr is IN" I knew the jig was up.)

posted by delmoi at 3:27 AM on November 17

I'm surprised and disappointed (I know, I shouldn't be surprised) about some of the negative, uninformed and irrational comments at the bottom of the oregonlive.com article. Seems the less people know about a topic the stronger their opinions and the more they want to dictate to everyone else.

...sigh...
posted by joz at 3:27 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

this shit with the inside jokes/references, double entendres, puns, etc. in the marijuana community has fucking got to stop. it's so boring, and does nothing to help legitimize their cause.

Man, someone better tell the coffee folks, because they've been punning it up for the longest time. Whether real or fictional, you end up with cafes like "Central Perk" or "Common Ground." Don't even start with the chocolate people. The jokes could fill an entire thread here.
posted by explosion at 3:56 AM on November 17 [5 favorites]

Yep, bad weed jokes suck. Guess what? Bad jokes suck. Pretty much across the board.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 4:03 AM on November 17

Presumably, you won't go to this cafe in that case. I don't think attendance is compulsory for everyone in Portland using medical marijuana. Those people would presumably get their pot from another source, and use it at home, alone.

I can hear Beck, Hannity, et al:

That's the next step, bra. The Man, fulfilling his Socialist agenda, will soon require citizens to go to government-sanctioned toking-up stations. It's all in the Plan. Wait and see.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 5:18 AM on November 17

Oh yeah, and remember, pot makes you paranoid.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 5:19 AM on November 17

Isn't coffee bad for health?

Quite the contrary
posted by Jaltcoh at 5:29 AM on November 17

Let them have their pot. And their cocaine, and their heroin. Just don't expect me to pay for their hospital bills when they drive a car and crash, their unemployment benefits when no employer will hire a drug user, and their house when they can't pay their mortgage because all their money went to drugs.

It's a slippery slope my friends.
posted by dearsina at 5:46 AM on November 17

The comments on the article are raising my blood pressure. But I guess that's not something pot's good for.

only in america imagine that i suppose thats the ONLY medication in this world they claim will work.. what a bunch of %$$%% all the pot heads love this who's going to monitor these people actually taking it and selling making a profit off of it . chalk up another win for you druggies hope the police are checking for prescriptions at the door going in and out matter of time before high crime is there DONT POST COMMENT TO THIS CAUSE I AINT READIN IT AND I AINT BUYING IT ...SORRY

I want to dissect this comment and mount it on the wall.

*ALSO IN AMSTERDAM
*HOW DARE PEOPLE SELL MEDICINE FOR A PROFIT, THAT'S SOCIALISM!
*That second to last sentence just kind of meanders and dies. It's almost like you're... high. You're so high you forgot you like pot.
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:48 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

>
Yeah! And if you get cancer from your cigs, or get in a crash because of alcohol, or suffer a heart attack from caffeine, or an allergic reaction to aspirin, YOU ARE NOT GETTING ONE RED CENT FROM ME, YOU FILTHY USER!
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:50 AM on November 17 [8 favorites]

>
Many liberals don't want to admit this, but marijuana was not created for recreational use. What happened was that early on in creation, Satan decided to poison the atmosphere with a poison that causes madness, to scare people away from the one true faith. At first, God thought a flood would be all it would take it destroy the menace, but He found that just drove the toxin into the soil, bound to seep out yet again.

To resolve this, God bestowed a humble weed the capability to suck the THC out from the earth and sequester it in some ugly leaves only the most deranged would try to smoke and/or eat.

Every time you remove one of those leaves from a marijuana plant, you release the madness venom back into the biosphere. It's a well known fact that the Satanist Lobby is pro-marijuana. As America is a Christian nation, it is the least we can do to put these degenerate polluters in jail. After all, if you dumped mercury in the city reservoir, you'd get arrested, right?
posted by mccarty.tim at 6:05 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

Let them have their pot. And their cocaine, and their heroin. Just don't expect me to pay for their hospital bills when they drive a car and crash, their unemployment benefits when no employer will hire a drug user, and their house when they can't pay their mortgage because all their money went to drugs.

You seem to have misunderstood the point of "medical marijuana". There is a decent explanation here.
posted by creasy boy at 6:06 AM on November 17 [3 favorites]

Let them have their pot. And their cocaine, and their heroin alcohol. Just don't expect me to pay for their hospital bills when they drive a car and crash, their unemployment benefits when no employer will hire a drunk-driving alcoholic, and their house when they can't pay their mortgage because all their money went to drugs alcohol.

This is not a FTFY. This is a hey, look, think about this. We've done prohibition, and it cost us a lot, socially and economically. What did we get out of it? Organized crime?

I mean, do you write your congresscritters and demand that the laws be changed so that you don't have to pay for the treatment of the more than 13,000 people who die of alcohol-related failure? More than 22,000 people a year die of alcohol-related causes (not even counting accidents or murder!).*

Come on. Think a little bit before hauling out the "well, I don't wanna pay for..." argument. Or maybe don't haul it out at all, since it's a terrible, terrible argument that collapses if you look at it hard.
posted by rtha at 6:06 AM on November 17 [13 favorites]

...alcohol-related *liver* failure is what that should say. Too early. More coffee. OH NOES DRUGS!
posted by rtha at 6:09 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

While I quite agree that the puns etc. around these establishments and this culture is quite insufferable, medical marijuana use really just amounts to, as I see it, a form of hospice. It's not curing anything, and is entirely about the comfort of the patient. So, point and scoff if you must but let the poor bastards with AIDS or severe arthritis do what they want and leave 'em alone.
posted by jimmythefish at 6:12 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

I was surprised by how cheesy the marijuana culture in Amsterdam was. I was expecting sophisticated Bohemian cafes, but instead got juvenile-level references. Maybe there was some of that and I missed it. My memories of that city are pretty vague.
posted by yeti at 6:14 AM on November 17

Related: Breckenridge, Colorado recently legalized Marijuana.
posted by baserunner73 at 6:33 AM on November 17

It's not curing anything, and is entirely about the comfort of the patient.

Of course not, but the medical establishment per se doesn't always have the cure for ailment. Anti-depressants don't cure depression, tranquilizers don't cure anxiety, pain medications don't cure pain, cancer drugs don't exactly cure cancer, etc etc... but they're still valid in they context they are used because they, presumably, promote a better life for the individual.
posted by tybeet at 6:38 AM on November 17

Let them have their pot. And their cocaine, and their heroin. Just don't expect me to pay for their hospital bills when they drive a car and crash, their unemployment benefits when no employer will hire a drug user, and their house when they can't pay their mortgage because all their money went to drugs.

It's a slippery slope my friends.

"Slippery slope" usually refers to the logical fallacy as demonstrated in your above logic.
posted by explosion at 6:44 AM on November 17 [14 favorites]

I'd respect the anti-legalization folks more if they stopped pretending it was about health and admitted it was about denying pleasure.

I still wouldn't agree with them, of course. But at least they'd get points for honesty.
posted by Joe Beese at 6:52 AM on November 17 [7 favorites]

I thought we didn't do single link Onion articles.
posted by cjorgensen at 6:59 AM on November 17

"Slippery slope" usually refers to the logical fallacy

But it's not necessarily a fallacy. In fact, it's fallacious to assume that any slippery-slope argument is a fallacy. Some slippery slopes are real. Whether the legalizing marijuana --> legalizing cocaine slippery slope is real, is another question. I'm not convinced by that argument, but it's not totally implausible. Labeling things as fallacies is lazy reasoning.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:00 AM on November 17

I'd just like to say: wooo hoooooooo!!!!!!
posted by sickinthehead at 7:01 AM on November 17

it's not totally implausible.
Are you sure?
posted by ook at 7:06 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

How many comments before someone gets on their high horse about the 4:20 reference

I was a bit disappointed the post wasn't made at 4:20.

What, you had to sleep? Sissy.
posted by rokusan at 7:16 AM on November 17

Are you sure?

What's the point in asking me if I'm "sure" I agree with my own comment? Naturally, I believe what I said -- otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

Is it "totally implausible" that the legalization of marijuana could nudge society toward legalizing cocaine? Again, I don't think so. To look at it another way, if we were ever going to legalize cocaine, we'd probably legalize marijuana first. Thus, I could imagine someone who was really, really afraid of cocaine getting legalized wanting to make sure no currently illegal drugs are legalized since that would increase the likelihood of hard drugs eventually becoming legal.

I think that would be a silly way to look at things, and it's not my position -- but not because it's a "slippery-slope fallacy." It's not illogical to suppose that a small step might lead to a bigger step. In fact, there are many real slippery slopes. (For instance, relatively minor bans on cigarette smoking have led to broader bans on cigarette smoking, and might lead to still broad bans in the future.) I just don't happen to find it convincing in this case. Just because an argument is unconvincing, even laughable, doesn't mean it should be glibly dismissed by pinning a "fallacy" label on it.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:21 AM on November 17

Jaltcoh,

As far as I am aware there is little if any evidence that the body has cocaine receptors specific to the drug that dramatically alter pain signalling and memory. In this way cannabinoids are like opiates. Both species of drug have specific receptors and chemical subtypes that alter noxious stimuli, and have therefore been found to have medical benefits for comfort that are in many cases profound.

If cocaine can prove itself of similar benefit, then it too should be legalized for medical use.

If you have not seen the benefits of THC for medical issues firsthand, stay away from that end of the debate. It's like telling an ALS victim you oppose stem-cell research right before you run away to finish exercising. It's insensitive and tone deaf.
posted by docpops at 7:28 AM on November 17 [3 favorites]

Let them have their pot. And their cocaine, and their heroin. Just don't expect me to pay for their hospital bills when they drive a car and crash...

Driving on drugs is one thing, but imagine if they legalized alcohol and people started driving drunk. That would be pure insanity.
posted by snofoam at 7:28 AM on November 17 [5 favorites]

Quite the contrary.

Dr. Miia Kivipelto, an associate professor of neurology at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm and lead author of the study, does not as yet advocate drinking coffee as a preventive health measure. “This is an observational study,” she said. “We have no evidence that for people who are not drinking coffee, taking up drinking will have a protective effect.”
posted by adamdschneider at 7:32 AM on November 17

Can secondhand smoke be counted as an employee benefit?
posted by buzzman at 7:35 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Rhode Island is looking into possible legalization, too.
posted by lunit at 7:35 AM on November 17

Isn't it America's SECOND canabis cafe. Last time I was in Vancouver i stumbled across one that had been opened for years

Just to clarify, there have indeed been pot cafes operating off and on in Vancouver since at least the mid-90s. The boldest of them - occasionally raided at the behest of the DEA, only to be reopened weeks later, sometimes under under new names - were established and run by longtime legalization activist Marc Emery.

As reward for his pioneering efforts, Emery currently awaits extradition to the US for selling marijuana seeds to American customers by mail. Because this is not actually illegal in the jurisdiction where his business is based, Canadians should find his extradition troubling - if not outright appalling. Of course, he didn't really need pot and just wanted to get high, so maybe that means he deserves it.
posted by gompa at 7:38 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

Dr. Miia Kivipelto, an associate professor of neurology at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm and lead author of the study, does not as yet advocate drinking coffee as a preventive health measure. “This is an observational study,” she said. “We have no evidence that for people who are not drinking coffee, taking up drinking will have a protective effect.”

Unless you factor in the antioxidant levels of coffee and the theory that antioxidants prevent free radical damage for which there is evidence.
posted by tybeet at 7:50 AM on November 17

Maybe if it were legalized, stoners would stop thinking my birthday is such a special day, and would stop making me have the same conversation repeatedly:

Trader Joes Wine Store Rasta Man: (Checks ID) "WHOOOAAEEEH!"

Me: *blank*

TJWSRM: "Your birthday is FOUR TWENTEEEE."

Me: *Awkward laugh* "Oh my god! Yes it is! You're right!"

TJWSRM: "Your birthday must be fuuuuuuuun."

Me: "It generally is. I like karaoke."

TJWSRM: "You're lucky."

Me: "I think so."

TJWSRM: (Makes toking gesture with hand, squints eyes.) "You have a goooood day!"

(This has happened FOUR times. Same guy, same conversation.)
posted by functionequalsform at 8:03 AM on November 17 [10 favorites]

In 1970, I was sure that I would open such an establishment in the future.
Now, I find, I am in the wrong state. (Pun intended, man.)
posted by Drasher at 8:05 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

.
posted by andreaazure at 8:15 AM on November 17

Did California just get served by Oregon? Cali is going to have to fire back with a pot house of their own now. If IF our leaders were smart they would just come out and say "Look religion nut cases 75% of the population smokes it up and 20% of the population would smoke it up if the stuff was legal. Therefore we are legalizing it and putting a tax on it. You nut cases can go pound sand." Within a month honestly I doubt we would have a national debt.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 8:19 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

Dude, ok, I'm apparently the only one who noticed, but that NORML chick totally sounded like she had the toke-snuffles.

Good on you, Oregon. Power<--fight it.
posted by saysthis at 8:21 AM on November 17

Dude, ok, I'm apparently the only one who noticed, but that NORML chick totally sounded like she had the toke-snuffles.

NORML staff all seem to be daily tokers, which may just be counter productive to their cause, paradoxically.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:34 AM on November 17

>
As a person born on 12/25, I empathize. Hence, I'm calling for a War on Christmas down the hall in the other thread, even though I am a Presbyterian.
posted by mccarty.tim at 8:35 AM on November 17

Is it "totally implausible" that the legalization of marijuana could nudge society toward legalizing cocaine?

At one point in our not-very-distant past, both marijuana and cocaine were legal in the U.S. You could buy them in pharmacies, even!
posted by rtha at 8:35 AM on November 17

Just because an argument is unconvincing, even laughable, doesn't mean it should be glibly dismissed by pinning a "fallacy" label on it.

There is no evidence that the recent push to legalize marijuana has anything to do with trying to legalize cocaine. Trying to make that connection is a leap of logic, not at all logical. Besides, cocaine is already legal for medical use (usually as a topical analgesic), and nobody is pushing for recreational use. Marijuana is not legal for medical use, at least not at the federal level.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:40 AM on November 17

NORML staff all seem to be daily tokers, which may just be counter productive to their cause, paradoxically.

A lot of activists are not users at all, sometimes specifically for reasons related to PR and politics, but NORML doesn't have any policies about it for their staff, AFAIK.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:42 AM on November 17

Of course, he didn't really need pot and just wanted to get high, so maybe that means he deserves it.

I like Marc Emery and respect him a hell of a lot for sticking his neck out, but I saw this coming a long way away. He's been trying to provoke either the Canadian or US governments to take strong action against him, so he could fight the legal battles and maybe win a bit for our side. Not that he wanted to be put in jail, and I don't think he ever really thought he'd be extradited, but he's said many times that he's not afraid of getting hit with charges, and he has deep pockets to pay for his defense. His seed business has been very lucrative. He's a showboat, but he's very sharp. He may not win all his battles ahead, but I wouldn't underestimate him.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:46 AM on November 17

Serious question: what sort of hoops would a California resident need to jump through to gain admittance?

Become an Oregon resident and registered patient. At this point, only Montana and Rhode Island have reciprocity, where they accept cards from other states with legal programs.


If cocaine can prove itself of similar benefit, then it too should be legalized for medical use.

Uh, it is legal for medical use.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:00 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

Ok, so let me get this straight. OR just opened the first ever legal cocaine dispensary/cafe?

Oh I'm sorry I guess we got off topic.

also, whoever said this really sucks - so much that I'm not even going to mention your sucky name, just quote your suck:

Also, the people who really need medical pot tend to be too sick to get out of bed, let alone go to a stoner cafe. So if anything this is ammo for the "they don't really need it, they just want to get high" crowd.

I've seen everything along the spectrum from "clearly needs" to "clearly is a stoner with a license" here in CA and in terms of real compassion, I would rather let a few stoners thru the door than deny one person their pain or nausea meds.

Oxycontin is fun right? People are recreating on it. So maybe that should be illegal too eh? No, it shouldn't because people need f'ing pain meds you ass.
posted by cbecker333 at 9:01 AM on November 17

NORML staff all seem to be daily tokers, which may just be counter productive to their cause, paradoxically.

Not in my experience, actually, and I work with quite a few of them. There are many reasons why people work on legalization other than personal use. And there are a lot of people in this movement who both use personally and have clear philosophical and political reasons to work to dismantle prohibition.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:05 AM on November 17

also, whoever said this really sucks - so much that I'm not even going to mention your sucky name, just quote your suck:

Way to take the high road.
posted by peeedro at 9:11 AM on November 17

Way to take the high road.

Poop poop ass crap fart.
posted by cbecker333 at 9:15 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

Not in my experience, actually, and I work with quite a few of them.

My mistake. Back in the early '90s I knew a few local NORML staffers and they seemed a bit too stoned and rough around the edges to be taken seriously by Texas policymakers (not that they would've been taken seriously even if they were "clean cut").
posted by Burhanistan at 9:16 AM on November 17

I'm sorry but it's hard to engage someone in a serious debate when we have a double-standard. By saying "but people will get high for fun!" you're arguing for a completely different standard of acceptability as compared to ALMOST ALL the other pain medications out there, which people take for fun CONSTANTLY.
posted by cbecker333 at 9:20 AM on November 17 [3 favorites]

Something I came across recently:

Today Show: Stiletto Stoners

Now that casually pro-pot segments are airing on the effing Today Show, can we just go ahead and legalize. If a show my conservative, 1950's-minded mother watches is okay with comparing a joint to a glass of wine, then I don't see any more barriers.
posted by naju at 9:35 AM on November 17 [2 favorites]

I'm sorry but it's hard to engage someone in a serious debate when we have a double-standard. By saying "but people will get high for fun!" you're arguing for a completely different standard of acceptability as compared to ALMOST ALL the other pain medications out there, which people take for fun CONSTANTLY.

What they said - and it's a hell of a lot less harmful to get a buzz off the weed than it is to get a buzz off, say, Oxycodone or Xanax

Also, the people who really need medical pot tend to be too sick to get out of bed, let alone go to a stoner cafe. So if anything this is ammo for the "they don't really need it, they just want to get high" crowd.

Or maybe it's what helps them kill the pain enough so that they can get out of bed and conduct their daily lives - and see the above quoted comment as well (I've been prescribed at one point or another various opiates, benzodiazepines, steroids, SSRI/SSNRIs, muscle relaxers etc and I can tell you which one has the best acute effects and the least side effects [hint: it's the illegal one that grows in the ground])

Or maybe they just prefer it, as did Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking (rumored), and a bunch of other famous, accomplished, intelligent types I won't bother Googling - you can do that yourself, and besides, it's almost noon, and that's my midday dosage time
posted by jtron at 9:50 AM on November 17

Gingerbeer - its utility in medicine is restricted to use as a topical vasoconstrictor. To say it has medical benefits is a reach, since we could use other compounds as well like epinephrine if necessary, and the cardiac toxicity of cocaine makes it a little dicey.

But I bet you already knew that.
posted by docpops at 10:00 AM on November 17

Dude, this is the bluest website I've ever seen.
posted by swift at 10:01 AM on November 17

Oh Northeast Portland. Have I told you lately how much I love you?
posted by Lutoslawski at 10:15 AM on November 17

I've got nothing really to offer this conversation except to put a e-face to medicinal marijuana.

In May of 2000 I was diagnosed with testicular cancer. The treatment involved three cycles of chemotherapy, each of which was five days on, 16 days off. My cancer had reached stage II and the tumor was pressing on my aorta, causing considerable pain. When I had an "on" day, chemotherapy lasted eight hours. It was pretty stressful being in the infusion center for that long. Although I was in my early twenties and in good health (apart from the cancer and all) I was surrounded by older and sicker people. Some would occasionally wail from pain or delirium. Some would spend the entire day dry heaving.

During my first cycle of chemotherapy I was taking one medication to manage the pain and another to manage the nausea. Both meds had unpleasant side-effects, causing constipation and unimaginably bad heartburn respectively. As a result I started taking two additional meds to manage these side-effects. Despite this, eating was intolerable. I started losing weight and had little energy. I tried marinol, but it had such a tiny effect that I couldn't tell if the pill was working or a placebo effect was.

I had the good fortune to receive this cancer in California. Armed with a letter from my oncologist I got a "patient's card" that got me into any number of "buyer's clubs" around the bay area. As an ex-stoner, these clubs delighted and depressed me at the same time. There was a salesperson behind the counter who could explain the differences between varieties much like the delivery man in "Half Baked." All of the wares looked a lot better than the pressed bricks I used to smoke back east. The club smelled wonderful.

Inside almost every table was full with people who either looked very sick or very poor. They all seemed to be having a good time, playing board games and listening to music. Despite their good spirits I could easily tell they were in pain just by looking at them.

Due to the chemo cocktail I was getting I absolutely could not smoke, lest my lungs fill up with scar-tissue permanently. I invested in a vaporizer which let me try some of the wonderful varieties of flora. My favorite of all time was called "Romulan IV." But to endure eight hours of chemotherapy I needed comestibles. This is about as close as nature intended us to get our cannabis and it was by far the most effective. It took a little while to get the dosing right. I recall spending almost an entire day uncomfortably high after learning that the "double strength brownies" were a little bit stronger than 2x.

Eating a doped lemon bar in the morning would manage my pain for most of the day and handle nausea better than any meds I had taken. It's side-effects were beneficial as well. My appetite increased, both from lower nausea and the munchies, and so did my energy level. By my third cycle I had eliminated all of my meds and had started to gain weight back. Being mildly buzzed also helped sit through a day of infusions and the burning sensation and acute waves of nausea I'd get when they started giving me the good stuff.

The fact that there is even an argument against allowing sick people access to this incredibly cheap and effective medication blows my mind. The stoners are irrelevant. People inhale paint for crying out loud. Is it really so important to keep citizens from an effective medication so that it won't be abused?
posted by chemoboy at 10:25 AM on November 17 [261 favorites]

It enhances the bottom line of private prisons...

Oh, thanks. That clears it up. I shoulda known...
posted by Doublewhiskeycokenoice at 10:30 AM on November 17

Oxycontin is fun right? People are recreating on it. So maybe that should be illegal too eh? No, it shouldn't because people need f'ing pain meds you ass.

And to the same point, you don't have a fairly well-organized movement pushing to keep local "heroin dispensaries" open to assist people with dealing with pain, because, amazingly enough, you can go to your doctor and be prescribed a range of opium-derived painkillers (made from legally grown poppies in places like Tasmania). You want a medical product somewhat related to marijuana the only thing you can get is synthetic THC. It won't work as well and may very well make you much, much higher than the effective dose of high quality marijuana for the same condition, but you know, it'll keep kids from getting the idea that marijuana isn't totally dangerous and evil. Right?

Medical marijuana could very easily be made available through conventional medical channels. Hell, the federal government's been distributing marijuana to a handful of people for over 30 years without incident. Pharmaceutical growers could be appropriately licensed just as legal opium poppy growers are and people with a proper prescription could pick it up at the pharmacy. Researchers could do real science on what constituents do the most good for particular conditions and develop methods of delivery that preserve the benefits of smoking (fast action, self-titration of dose, eliminating physical ingestion when nausea is a factor) while minimizing its health impacts.

And yes some amount would be diverted for recreational use as is the case with pretty much any psychoactive pharmaceutical including oxycodone, methylphenidate and OTC cough syrup for that matter. The whole reason a less structured and more exploitable local dispensary system for marijuana has sprung up is because the federal system - the one with processes in place to formalize the approval of a drug for specific conditions and to keep watch over doctors writing iffy scripts for financial gain - refuses to treat the issue on its medical merits. I honestly don't think there would be a viable movement for state-by-state legalization if rational federal medical legalization were allowed. People would consider the problem solved, the effect on recreational use would be negligible (the massive black market being already in place). I would certainly support this because I think it would mean a much higher percentage of the most serious medical cases where medical marijuana could do good would gain access to it and could do so without fear of federal reprisal. But no, it can't happen because it might undermine the marijuana prohibition effort, thus thwarting its important benefits like making people like the most vicious criminals in Mexico billions of dollars.

Damn this subject angries up my blood.
posted by nanojath at 10:48 AM on November 17 [6 favorites]

Gingerbeer - its utility in medicine is restricted to use as a topical vasoconstrictor. To say it has medical benefits is a reach, since we could use other compounds as well like epinephrine if necessary, and the cardiac toxicity of cocaine makes it a little dicey.

I read the comment that gingerbeer replied to as implying that it was cocaine was not legal for medical use. The fact that its use is limited doesn't change to fact that it's legal. (And if other "non-fun" drugs do cocaine's medical job just as well, then why is it still used for medical purposes?)
posted by rtha at 10:52 AM on November 17

> Not in my experience, actually, and I work with quite a few of them.

My mistake. Back in the early '90s I knew a few local NORML staffers and they seemed a bit too stoned and rough around the edges to be taken seriously by Texas policymakers (not that they would've been taken seriously even if they were "clean cut").

I imagine it may have changed some since then. I've been continually surprised by the number of people in this movement who *don't* smoke, although I really shouldn't be, as I'm one of them.
posted by gingerbeer at 11:32 AM on November 17

rainperimeter: "this shit with the inside jokes/references, double entendres, puns, etc. in the marijuana community has fucking got to stop."

Wait, wait, wait. You mean for the last 20 years, people have been thinking my name was a drug reference? I'll have you know I meant sailing. And not that kind of sailing either. This kind of sailing.

Kids today. Wacky weed, long hair, and disrespectful attitudes. Pull up your pants! Why in my day....wait, what was I just talking about?
posted by dejah420 at 11:36 AM on November 17 [1 favorite]

> Gingerbeer - its utility in medicine is restricted to use as a topical vasoconstrictor. To say it has medical benefits is a reach, since we could use other compounds as well like epinephrine if necessary, and the cardiac toxicity of cocaine makes it a little dicey.

But I bet you already knew that.

Indeed. Yet it is Schedule II, meaning that you may in fact prescribe it, albeit with an enormous amount of paperwork. As opposed to, oh say, cannabis, with clear documented medical benefits, minimal toxicity, and little potential for abuse, which is Schedule I. My point is not that cocaine is a great medical therapy, but rather that our scheduling system is not exactly "evidence-based," and to address your statement that cocaine wasn't legal for medical use.
posted by gingerbeer at 11:40 AM on November 17 [4 favorites]

SE Portland Sailing Society?
posted by rainperimeter at 11:44 AM on November 17

Gingerbeer - those are excellent points. Thanks.
posted by docpops at 12:12 PM on November 17

Of course not, but the medical establishment per se doesn't always have the cure for ailment. Anti-depressants don't cure depression, tranquilizers don't cure anxiety, pain medications don't cure pain, cancer drugs don't exactly cure cancer, etc etc... but they're still valid in they context they are used because they, presumably, promote a better life for the individual.

I don't disagree...I'm just saying that purely medicating often has a different function than what one would consider a form of hospice - a typically end-state care situation which considers the comfort of the patient above their long-term well-being or recovery. I get the sense that a lot of medical marijuana prescriptions are for people who are in such a situation, though as evidenced in this thread this isn't always the case. Still, medical marijuana use has a social side, as seen here, that other medications don't have. It's a way for people to connect as well as self-medicate, which is very rarely the case in so many other treatments for pain and likely very helpful for a lot of people. If bad jokes, stoner culture and getting out to a cafe with their new-found friends makes them feel more connected, alive etc. then good on 'em.
posted by jimmythefish at 2:41 PM on November 17

Still, medical marijuana use has a social side, as seen here, that other medications don't have. It's a way for people to connect as well as self-medicate, which is very rarely the case in so many other treatments for pain and likely very helpful for a lot of people.

My experience with patients is the opposite. The only reason there is a social element to obtaining medicinal THC is that the law is so byzantine and mercurial that entire social networks have to be set up to assist people who would otherwise crave the dignity of a simple private transaction with their doctor and pharmacist. People with chronic pain just want to live their fucking lives unimpeded, same as you and me. Attending social gatherings is no more likely an attractive option for them as it is for any of us, most of whom I suspect are fairly private and introverted, hence our attraction to Matt's expansive web experiment.
posted by docpops at 2:53 PM on November 17 [1 favorite]

People with chronic pain just want to live their fucking lives unimpeded, same as you and me. Attending social gatherings is no more likely an attractive option for them as it is for any of us, most of whom I suspect are fairly private and introverted, hence our attraction to Matt's expansive web experiment.

I'm willing to accept that, but do they all? Would such a place as this exist if what you say is true? Or is having the option to go to a cafe such as this seem like a good option for some?
posted by jimmythefish at 3:01 PM on November 17

I was on medical MJ for two years for my back problems, but gave it up last week due to growing frustrations with how things are set up here in California. It's a joke that you have to pay street prices for pot at the dispensary. And forget about using your health insurance to obtain your medicine. I'm glad the option to legally obtain weed is there, but the program sure has a long way to go.
posted by porn in the woods at 3:05 PM on November 17

People with chronic pain just want to live their fucking lives unimpeded, same as you and me.

As a chronic pain patient myself, I suspect that "wanting to live our fucking lives unimpeded" is half the reason why conventional medicine sometimes falls short in treating things like chronic pain. When the discomfort of the patient is itself the primary symptom, options like communal therapy aren't just "an impediment". Being given a bottle of pills and going home to take them alone may not be as effective as medicine taken together with others who understand your pain. I think that environment (or "set and setting", as they say in the drug community) is vastly underestimated as a contributor to patient well-being.

In short: we're primates. We seek others like us, and when we hurt, we huddle together. Comfort has a power all its own. I suspect this is part of the reason why so many people fall for woo-woo "alternative" treatments like crystals and touch healing -- yes, they do nothing, but if the practitioner is warm and caring and spends time with the patient, and the doctor doesn't...

That said, I agree that many people would rather just get their medicine and go home. However, that option already exists for medical marijuana patients in Oregon. There's no harm in having a more social option. I mean, people who drink coffee or alcohol just want to live their fucking lives unimpeded, too, but there's still a place for the coffeeshop and the bar as well as Mr. Coffee and the local package store. In many ways, taking drugs alone runs counter to our social instincts.

Also, it's worth noting that those Volcano vaporizers they're using cost over five hundred dollars apiece. Many (if not most) patients cannot afford to spend $500 when they could be using a $10 pipe or $5 rolling papers, even though using a vaporizer is much healthier than smoking cannabis. Thus, there's a real health benefit to going to someplace like this.
posted by vorfeed at 3:54 PM on November 17 [5 favorites]

vorfeed: the Oxygen Mini is only $100! and i've... heard from some friends that it works fantastic.
posted by Mach5 at 4:36 PM on November 17 [1 favorite]

vorfeed - that's an excellent insight. I would be the first to agree that social isolation is a tremendous risk factor for illness and worsens pain. My feelings expressed above are borne out of my understanding of the law. It really is not as simple as filling a prescription, and it certainly is true that it requires more effort and skull-duggery than most people feel comfortable with. Remember that the largest demographic of chronic opiate users are older patients with arthritis. A lot of these folks would likely do better using topical THC formulations but there isn't a straightforward avenue to obtain a reliable and consistent means to the end product. In Oregon you cannot pay for your product, as I understand it. You can't even barter services. So it's a bit of a mess at this point, unless you are inclined to add the social element to your life.
posted by docpops at 6:05 PM on November 17

I've got anxiety and fibromyalgia, but weed doesn't help them, in fact it makes them worse, so I'll keep getting my supply illegally. It's a peculiar ethical stance, perhaps.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:21 PM on November 17 [1 favorite]

Can you go to a pharmacy and get your medical pot? with measured dosages? There are few instances where sick people congregate in a social setting to get medicated. So, it seems kind of odd to me.

Whoever upthread called it a tipping point is right. There's overwhelming evidence in favor of medical marijuana and substantial support for legalizing and regulating recreational use. We have so many more pressing issues for law enforcement and the judicial system.
posted by theora55 at 7:14 PM on November 17

If cocaine can prove itself of similar benefit, then it too should be legalized for medical use.

You've never heard of a TAC preparation? I'm surprised, maybe it is just an ENT thing.
posted by geoff. at 8:05 PM on November 17

Oh oops, you already addressed that. Well that's what I get for skimming through the thread.
posted by geoff. at 8:06 PM on November 17

I tried marinol, but it had such a tiny effect that I couldn't tell if the pill was working or a placebo effect was.

That was exactly my experience with it, too. I went through chemo in 1990 for non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. No clubs back then, but I had access through the usual channels, and my oncologist told me if I were caught with it he would testify on my behalf in court. Since I lived in NM, the most I'd face is a misdemeanor, but it was great to know he'd back me up. My treatments weren't as severe as yours, but definitely chemo takes its toll, and it was the only thing I tried which allowed me to keep food down. It made the days I had to go to the clinic tolerable, but without it was miserable, and I tried everything else to manage it, too, and nothing else did, but marijuana just worked.

As mentioned, Marinol flat out did not work for me, which is disappointing. From what I understand, the THC is suspended in mineral or vegetable oil, which doesn't allow it to be easily ingested. It passes through without being absorbed, and it doesn't contain the other cannabinoids, which can be beneficial when balanced in a particular way for different medical needs.

Oddly enough, NM did make medical marijuana legal back in the '70s in the form of a pilot program for cancer patients. Turns out my oncologist was involved in that, and had testified in front of the NM state legislature to support it. It was a promising program, but a few years down the road and the state failed to fund it anymore, and it died on the vine.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:28 PM on November 17

My feelings expressed above are borne out of my understanding of the law. It really is not as simple as filling a prescription, and it certainly is true that it requires more effort and skull-duggery than most people feel comfortable with.

Yes, I agree. This is especially true in California, where the medical MJ laws have created a bit of a circus. However, to be fair, this is pretty clearly the fault of the Federal government, not state medical marijuana laws. Marijuana needs to be re-scheduled; until that happens, you can't blame states for keeping it out of the existing medical system, because Federal law says they have to.

My own state of New Mexico has non-profit producers which supply patients with pot, and the state also allows patients to grow their own and/or buy it on the street. I think this is about the best system possible under current Federal laws -- it allows people who don't want a "street" experience to deal with a state-licensed production system.
posted by vorfeed at 8:47 PM on November 17 [1 favorite]

I'm a little confused with the snarkiness about medicinal marijuana users... Am I too sick to get out of bed or am I out wrecking my car?

I've often thought it would be nice to get out and socialize somewhere where the inebriates are not drunks and lushes in a bar. (Not that all alcohol drinkers are such, but MY friends are.)
posted by _paegan_ at 11:10 PM on November 17 [2 favorites]

In all seriousness, username aside, I quit smoking a few years ago...mostly cause the only person I knew who sold it moved away, and it's pretty hard to find a connection when you're my age in the suburbs.

But, since I quit smoking, the amount of painkillers I take has gone through the roof. I have arthritis, I've had knee surgery on both knees, I have major joint damage, spine damage, and I have pain artifacts from a massive accident about 10 years ago.

It used to be that I could smoke about one joint a day...maybe two, but usually one...a couple hits at a time, and be perfectly maintained. I still functioned as a high level information worker, I was making a 4.0 in grad school, and I don't think anyone except my closest friends/family even knew I smoked.

But painkillers? You can't just take a little bit at a time to maintain. There may be time release drugs out there, I dunno...but I don't have health insurance, so I stick with a relatively low cost, fairly low dose of hydrocodone...but I guarantee you that even at low doses, I'm more dopey on drugs than I ever was on pot. I get sleepy, I get irritable, and because I live in fear of the FDA and their absurd crackdown on painkillers, I take less than I need to actually manage the pain because I don't want to show up on their radar, and I don't want my doctor to show up on their radar.

If medical marijuana was legal, my doctor has already said that he thinks that's a better option for me, because it works so much better than the drugs we've tried...but it's not legal. Because it's not legal, I can't risk myself, my property, and my kid to go find a dealer, just so I'm not in constant pain.

Our prohibition on weeds is ridiculous. Our nanny state stance on painkillers is absurd. We have let the puritans take control of the medical process, and that's just outrageous.

So yes, if there were a cafe like this in my town, absolutely I would visit it. And folks can make all the stoner jokes they want, but if I could just live my life like a healthy pain-free adult, I think that would be super.
posted by dejah420 at 8:30 AM on November 18 [8 favorites]

On the whole opiate diversion question, no pharmaceutical products ever need to be encountered to obtain this drug effect. Simply go (in California) to Ace Hardware in February, pick up a flat of "lavender breadseed poppy" seedlings, grow according to instructions obtainable at countless gardening websites, then prepare according to countless other "poppy tea" websites and there you have it. In fact, you don't even have to grow the poppies, zillions of "decorative poppy heads" sellers are clamoring for your business with quite reasonable prices on Ebay, etc.

The drug warriors' main weapon is your own ignorance, never forget that.

The FKN news lays it out very succinctly.
posted by telstar at 4:09 PM on November 20