These two teachers
July 26, 2001 12:17 AM Subscribe
These two teachers had the nerve to expose more kids to AP English classes, their reward? Removal from the program by a principal. How can teachers persevere when the parents and/or administration are both set against them?
The principal is probably not a bad guy, just worried about how the lower total percentage passing looks to the school board. He should instead be happy that great numbers of students are interested in studying English, now including students who aren't good enough to pass the test but who want to try.
What Culver City's principal failed to note was that the passing rate fell because Goldberg and Mortenson had been so successful at building that program. From a handful of students in the 1980s, Culver City's AP English classes have grown to include nearly 200 students, 113 of whom took exams in AP English in May.
That is more students than take AP exams in all subjects at most American high schools, where AP is often reserved only for the elite.
Maybe people should write to him. He probably means well and just needs some encouragement to do right.
posted by pracowity at 2:41 AM on July 26, 2001
What Culver City's principal failed to note was that the passing rate fell because Goldberg and Mortenson had been so successful at building that program. From a handful of students in the 1980s, Culver City's AP English classes have grown to include nearly 200 students, 113 of whom took exams in AP English in May.
That is more students than take AP exams in all subjects at most American high schools, where AP is often reserved only for the elite.
Maybe people should write to him. He probably means well and just needs some encouragement to do right.
posted by pracowity at 2:41 AM on July 26, 2001
I was in advanced placement english in high school, and believe me, the principal was not shy about quickly shuffling strugglers to the other english classes in a quick and hurried way. The more in the class struggling, the more failing, the more parents complaining, the worse the principal looks.
posted by benjh at 3:59 AM on July 26, 2001
posted by benjh at 3:59 AM on July 26, 2001
It looks like just one more of the effects of the unwarranted emphasis put on test results. Good guy or not, when it came down to making a decision the principal looked at test results instead of what was actually going on. Test results can turn a class into statistics, and statistics are dangerous things when not carefully maintained.
posted by Nothing at 4:23 AM on July 26, 2001
posted by Nothing at 4:23 AM on July 26, 2001
Looking at raw percentages rather than real numbers is the killer here: how many of the students taking AP English improve their overall grades? I'd imagine it's bloody loads.
posted by holgate at 4:28 AM on July 26, 2001
posted by holgate at 4:28 AM on July 26, 2001
One of the points of AP classes is you give students more challenging work but then give them higher grade points and maybe college credit as a reward. In my highschool, an "A" in an AP course was worth 5 points toward your average instead of 4, which meant it was possible to graduate with something like a 4.2 average if you took several AP classes.
Now, if the students who take these classes and get these extra grade points aren't actually learning enough to do well on AP tests, maybe they're getting underserved credit. These may be great teachers, but if they're having to tell students basic stuff like limit passive voice and use slang like "you know" or "whatever" in your papers, then I question whether the students are really doing AP-level work. It seems these gifted teachers could still get students excited about English without pretending the students are doing higher-level work than they actually are.
Trying to squeeze everyone into advanced classes penalizes the students who are capable of advanced work. I know I would have been pissed-off if my AP English classes had wasted time going over basic grammar instead of discussing literature and how to write about literature.
posted by straight at 5:47 AM on July 26, 2001
Now, if the students who take these classes and get these extra grade points aren't actually learning enough to do well on AP tests, maybe they're getting underserved credit. These may be great teachers, but if they're having to tell students basic stuff like limit passive voice and use slang like "you know" or "whatever" in your papers, then I question whether the students are really doing AP-level work. It seems these gifted teachers could still get students excited about English without pretending the students are doing higher-level work than they actually are.
Trying to squeeze everyone into advanced classes penalizes the students who are capable of advanced work. I know I would have been pissed-off if my AP English classes had wasted time going over basic grammar instead of discussing literature and how to write about literature.
posted by straight at 5:47 AM on July 26, 2001
eh... it's just a case of a principal not knowing what's going on. administrators never do. they come up with ideas that sound good. our principal probably couldn't recognize by name more than 10% of our student body, and most of those were just because they were athletes.
Of course, in my school, you didn't get any extra credit (like having an A count as a 5-point) for taking AP classes, which is why our top GPA's went to people whose schedules consisted of weightlifting and leisure time activities. I'm not surprised they have to discuss basic grammar in an AP class. This is our public school system we're talking about. It doesn't matter how smart your kids are if you don't teach them anything (and they're not going to learn grammar by watching movies like First Knight, Up Close and Personal, and War of the Roses -- three of the worst movies ever, btw).
posted by dagnyscott at 7:13 AM on July 26, 2001
Of course, in my school, you didn't get any extra credit (like having an A count as a 5-point) for taking AP classes, which is why our top GPA's went to people whose schedules consisted of weightlifting and leisure time activities. I'm not surprised they have to discuss basic grammar in an AP class. This is our public school system we're talking about. It doesn't matter how smart your kids are if you don't teach them anything (and they're not going to learn grammar by watching movies like First Knight, Up Close and Personal, and War of the Roses -- three of the worst movies ever, btw).
posted by dagnyscott at 7:13 AM on July 26, 2001
eh... it's just a case of a principal not knowing what's going on. administrators never do. they come up with ideas that sound good. our principal probably couldn't recognize by name more than 10% of our student body, and most of those were just because they were athletes.
Of course, in my school, you didn't get any extra credit (like having an A count as a 5-point) for taking AP classes, which is why our top GPA's went to people whose schedules consisted of weightlifting and leisure time activities. I'm not surprised they have to discuss basic grammar in an AP class. This is our public school system we're talking about. It doesn't matter how smart your kids are if you don't teach them anything (and they're not going to learn grammar by watching movies like First Knight, Up Close and Personal, and War of the Roses -- three of the worst movies ever, btw).
posted by dagnyscott at 7:13 AM on July 26, 2001
Of course, in my school, you didn't get any extra credit (like having an A count as a 5-point) for taking AP classes, which is why our top GPA's went to people whose schedules consisted of weightlifting and leisure time activities. I'm not surprised they have to discuss basic grammar in an AP class. This is our public school system we're talking about. It doesn't matter how smart your kids are if you don't teach them anything (and they're not going to learn grammar by watching movies like First Knight, Up Close and Personal, and War of the Roses -- three of the worst movies ever, btw).
posted by dagnyscott at 7:13 AM on July 26, 2001
I'm considering another spin - perhaps Mr. Principal is a little tired of being overshadowed by his in-demand English teachers, and is trying to pull them down a peg by using statistics that don't necessarily bear the full story of what's happening in the AP English classes.
Now, if the students who take these classes and get these extra grade points aren't actually learning enough to do well on AP tests, maybe they're getting underserved credit.
Not doing well enough on the AP English test to get the college credit is not necessarily demonstrative of your ability in the subject matter. This isn't like mathematics where ability always walks hand in hand with being able to come up with a precise, uniform answer to a question.
And it could well be that many of the students are doing excellent work in the class but still don't do well on standardised testing. Some of the most well-written and well-spoken people I know fall apart entirely when confronted with pre-sealed test booklets and scantron sheets.
These may be great teachers, but if they're having to tell students basic stuff like limit passive voice and use slang like "you know" or "whatever" in your papers, then I question whether the students are really doing AP-level work.
Passive voice writing is common, just read through MetaFilter and the associated blogs/journals/whatever of those who contribute here! And I didn't get the impression that the colloquialisms were being used in papers, but in student comments in class and that's what the teachers were instructing them to avoid.
posted by Dreama at 8:11 AM on July 26, 2001
Now, if the students who take these classes and get these extra grade points aren't actually learning enough to do well on AP tests, maybe they're getting underserved credit.
Not doing well enough on the AP English test to get the college credit is not necessarily demonstrative of your ability in the subject matter. This isn't like mathematics where ability always walks hand in hand with being able to come up with a precise, uniform answer to a question.
And it could well be that many of the students are doing excellent work in the class but still don't do well on standardised testing. Some of the most well-written and well-spoken people I know fall apart entirely when confronted with pre-sealed test booklets and scantron sheets.
These may be great teachers, but if they're having to tell students basic stuff like limit passive voice and use slang like "you know" or "whatever" in your papers, then I question whether the students are really doing AP-level work.
Passive voice writing is common, just read through MetaFilter and the associated blogs/journals/whatever of those who contribute here! And I didn't get the impression that the colloquialisms were being used in papers, but in student comments in class and that's what the teachers were instructing them to avoid.
posted by Dreama at 8:11 AM on July 26, 2001
The fact that AP classes are called "advanced" is laughable, and a sad indicator of how our society cheapens itself.
Oh sure, everyone talks about saving the Precious Precious Children, but when it comes to paying for it, suddenly the support vanishes in favor of rhetoric about Black Helicopters, why MY kids should be homeschooled so they don't run into any unsavory darkies, and how the IRS is an illegal organization.
Children, in this country, are nothing more than political weapons, and walking-talking symbols.
Here's an amusing little game: every time you hear someone talk about children, mentally substitute volk instead (any fascist codeword will do nicely). I find it useful.
posted by aramaic at 8:13 AM on July 26, 2001
Oh sure, everyone talks about saving the Precious Precious Children, but when it comes to paying for it, suddenly the support vanishes in favor of rhetoric about Black Helicopters, why MY kids should be homeschooled so they don't run into any unsavory darkies, and how the IRS is an illegal organization.
Children, in this country, are nothing more than political weapons, and walking-talking symbols.
Here's an amusing little game: every time you hear someone talk about children, mentally substitute volk instead (any fascist codeword will do nicely). I find it useful.
posted by aramaic at 8:13 AM on July 26, 2001
aramaic - WTF? Did you forget your meds this morning? Or still bitter because you couldn't get in to the AP classes? Advanced placement education is one of the few ways we still support our kids, by allowing those who actually want to learn something - instead of just showing up to be baby-sat 8 hours a day - get some value out of public education.
posted by m.polo at 9:26 AM on July 26, 2001
posted by m.polo at 9:26 AM on July 26, 2001
I don't think one single parent was against these two teachers
I didn't mean in this case, but overall - but I should have been more clear.
Somewhat similar situation seems to have happened at my old high school where the year after I graduated, the new principal didn't like the "benefits" that kids in IB classes got, so he bumped a lot of the teachers to regular classes and basically moved funding over to the "Cities In Schools" program - which was basically full lof losers who never cared about learning.
posted by owillis at 9:30 AM on July 26, 2001
I didn't mean in this case, but overall - but I should have been more clear.
Somewhat similar situation seems to have happened at my old high school where the year after I graduated, the new principal didn't like the "benefits" that kids in IB classes got, so he bumped a lot of the teachers to regular classes and basically moved funding over to the "Cities In Schools" program - which was basically full lof losers who never cared about learning.
posted by owillis at 9:30 AM on July 26, 2001
m.polo: I think we actually agree, to an extent. AP is what all of school ought to be like (except the remedial stuff, of course).
And, since you brought it up: I was an IB kid. We generally laughed at the AP weenies, and took their finals as weekly quizzes (in math & physics). Neener-neener! ;-o
posted by aramaic at 9:49 AM on July 26, 2001
And, since you brought it up: I was an IB kid. We generally laughed at the AP weenies, and took their finals as weekly quizzes (in math & physics). Neener-neener! ;-o
posted by aramaic at 9:49 AM on July 26, 2001
Aramaic: I have to disagree with you there.
I was in AP english classes 6 years ago, and its about the only worthwhile class I took in high-school.
High school is a joke, obviously. I breezed through with A's the entire time and never did homework nor studied for tests.... except for those AP english and science classes.
As a matter of fact, those classes were more dificult than quite a few of my college classes.
Oops. Ok, I just read your next post...."AP is what all of school ought to be like "
Ahh well.
posted by Espoo2 at 11:23 AM on July 26, 2001
I was in AP english classes 6 years ago, and its about the only worthwhile class I took in high-school.
High school is a joke, obviously. I breezed through with A's the entire time and never did homework nor studied for tests.... except for those AP english and science classes.
As a matter of fact, those classes were more dificult than quite a few of my college classes.
Oops. Ok, I just read your next post...."AP is what all of school ought to be like "
Ahh well.
posted by Espoo2 at 11:23 AM on July 26, 2001
I'm with Espoo2 on this one. I think the only real work I did was for the AP and Honors classes. We didn't have weighted grades either. It's sad that administrators have to be so damned concerned about how they look to everyone else that they can't stop for a minute to see what the kids themselves are saying. How often do kids even fight for the teachers they like anymore? I took AP Chemistry, AP English, and AP European History my senior year and only took the test for English, but that doesn't mean I didn't learn a damn thing about Chem or European History in the meantime. I just didn't care enough about college credit for the others to fork over the dough for the tests.
Excuse me, please, I'm having a Stand and Deliver moment... "The mailman. I strangled him. His body's decomposing in my locker!"
posted by evixir at 11:34 AM on July 26, 2001
Excuse me, please, I'm having a Stand and Deliver moment... "The mailman. I strangled him. His body's decomposing in my locker!"
posted by evixir at 11:34 AM on July 26, 2001
Nothing: Test results can turn a class into statistics, and statistics are dangerous things when not carefully maintained. Homer, "Facts Schmacts. Facts can be used to prove anything even REMOTELY true." *grin* But now, for a more applicable (unknown) quote, "A person uses statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost - for support, not illumination." When any organization, be they corporate, educational or whatever, looks at the numbers MORE than the people and the actual situations in order to make decisions, the decisions just won't be good.
posted by thunder at 12:37 PM on July 26, 2001
posted by thunder at 12:37 PM on July 26, 2001
I was the kid who was not allowed in the AP courses because my GPA was too low (I didn't do my homework but aced just about every test) almost destroyed my chances to get into college. My saving grace was my ACT score (which was one of the highest in my graduating class, for the record).
The fact that any high school student who shows the potential and is willing to be challenged is being denied these "advanced" courses is revolting.
posted by tj at 1:51 PM on July 26, 2001
The fact that any high school student who shows the potential and is willing to be challenged is being denied these "advanced" courses is revolting.
posted by tj at 1:51 PM on July 26, 2001
The problem is that these teachers should be encouraging kids to take the classes, but not take the tests.
On an aside, what besides tests should be used to rate students? Certainly not grades; as straight pointed out, those are entirely subjective, and often tampered with. Moreover, if someone breaks down on a test, doesn't that say something about them as a person? If someone seems well-spoken and intelligent on the outside, but collapses into idiocy at the slightest of insignifigant stress? Seriously, the "I'm a bad test-taker" excuse is increadibly lame, in the "no leg to stand on" sense. You can take all of the standardized tests as many times as you want, and if you've prepared yourself properly, the tests should be the most relaxing four hours of the day.
Oh, and yes, the AP tests are a joke. I got a C in AP Physics, and I still aced the test without studying.
posted by Ptrin at 3:01 PM on July 26, 2001
On an aside, what besides tests should be used to rate students? Certainly not grades; as straight pointed out, those are entirely subjective, and often tampered with. Moreover, if someone breaks down on a test, doesn't that say something about them as a person? If someone seems well-spoken and intelligent on the outside, but collapses into idiocy at the slightest of insignifigant stress? Seriously, the "I'm a bad test-taker" excuse is increadibly lame, in the "no leg to stand on" sense. You can take all of the standardized tests as many times as you want, and if you've prepared yourself properly, the tests should be the most relaxing four hours of the day.
Oh, and yes, the AP tests are a joke. I got a C in AP Physics, and I still aced the test without studying.
posted by Ptrin at 3:01 PM on July 26, 2001
i guess i'm stoopid, Ptrin. i got B's and A's in my AP English classes, but passed only one of the exams (barely, with a 3 on the lit one).
posted by moz at 3:04 PM on July 26, 2001
posted by moz at 3:04 PM on July 26, 2001
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