Metafilter: Now with yellow subtitles!
June 18, 2010 8:14 AM   Subscribe


 
"The thought of various spinaches makes me yearn" may be my new motto.

Yellow subtitles are somewhat easier to read; they are less likely to disappear against light-colored backgrounds. There was a series of samurai films released in the US in the 90s (maybe called "Samurai Cinema" or something similar) that used three colors of subtitles -- red, green, and yellow -- which they would tie to different actors, which made tracking a quick-moving conversation much easier. I haven't seen this in any other releases -- I have no idea if people didn't like it that much, or it was too expensive, or what.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:24 AM on June 18, 2010 [2 favorites]


GenjiandProust: "three colors of subtitles -- red, green, and yellow"

The great thing about doing multi-colored subtitles with anime is that you can match the words to each character's hair.
posted by charred husk at 8:31 AM on June 18, 2010 [11 favorites]


Personally, I find color subtitles in a b/w film distracting in the extreme.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:35 AM on June 18, 2010 [2 favorites]


Gah. Yellow subtitles.
Right up there with the mega large font subtitles as one of the quickest ways to kill a movie experience.

My dream DVD player magically puts the subtitles into the unused letterbox space. Thus far, it remains a dream.
posted by madajb at 8:41 AM on June 18, 2010


The article seems to be focused mostly on foreign film, but I'm generally amused when the subtitles apparently match an earlier version of a script.

This seems to happen more on Hulu than on broadcast TV, but it's always interesting to see an earlier version of dialogue, but hear the final version.
posted by madajb at 8:43 AM on June 18, 2010


Ah, my film studies professor wrote a book that basically demolished film studies. He claimed that subtitling on foreign films raised the one question that initiated film studies. Essentially the whole field boils down to one question, can we interpret a film with subtitles with our own knowledge, including knowledge of the "language of film?" Or would we need to be a member of the foreign society, knowing its language and all the cultural nuances, in order to fully understand it?

Of course, having destroyed the whole subject, in just the introduction to his book, he became a celebrity in film studies academic circles. I read his book's intro, and I stopped there, I decided I never needed to read anything more about film studies, not even from him.
posted by charlie don't surf at 8:57 AM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


Sometimes I'll watch a subtitled movie and then later realize I have a false memory of hearing a character speak English, even though I know I was only reading the English while listening to a different language. It's fascinating.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:01 AM on June 18, 2010 [2 favorites]


"The thought of various spinaches makes me yearn"

i hereby give up my passport. WTF

though I will say that its very hard to translate bollywood songs sometimes with any degree of relevance or meaning through the metaphors and idioms that tend to be used

"sandalwood like body, flighty personality" does not a love song make
posted by infini at 9:16 AM on June 18, 2010


If we're talking about subtitles, you need to see the Russian film Night Watch, which saw limited theatrical release around 2005 and is available on DVD. (If you get the DVD, the version with the good subtitles is on the unmarked side. Flip it over.) Whispers peek out from behind people, shouts dominate the screen, the call of a vampire shows in red and dissolves like blood in water.

It's the only film I've seen that does anything creative with the form of its subtitles, and even if you don't like the movie, it's worth seeing for that.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:16 AM on June 18, 2010 [22 favorites]


I recognize that maybe it's a bit of a niche concern, but I'm surprised the author doesn't touch on the typography of subtitles. There are a lot of things that can make me lose interest in a film, but none as quickly as bad typography in the subtitles.
posted by tuck_nroll at 9:22 AM on June 18, 2010


It's the only film I've seen that does anything creative with the form of its subtitles, and even if you don't like the movie, it's worth seeing for that.
posted by Pope Guilty


Yes, cool subtitles indeed, but unfortunately I think it's an egregiously terrible movie (ymmv). Another film that made interesting use of its subtitles (the movie was in english but it had subtitles for some foreign conversation) was Man on Fire, which is a film where Tony Scott's insane need to hyperstylize everything actually works (he wasn't nearly so successful at this with most of his other films).
posted by haveanicesummer at 9:26 AM on June 18, 2010


All stories, even true ones, become fictions in their telling.

QFT.
posted by squalor at 9:27 AM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


tuck_nroll: There are a lot of things that can make me lose interest in a film, but none as quickly as bad typography in the subtitles.

There's a fair bit of grousing out there that Cameron can afford to make one of the most expensive movies in history but couldn't pay to do better than a papyrus knock-off.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:30 AM on June 18, 2010


Yes, cool subtitles indeed, but unfortunately I think it's an egregiously terrible movie (ymmv).

Which is a real shame, because the novel it's based on is a tremendously fun read and is as much about ethical debate as it is about wizards and vampires.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:31 AM on June 18, 2010


There's an important difference between subtitles and intertitles.
posted by sciurus at 9:35 AM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


Sometimes I'll watch a subtitled movie and then later realize I have a false memory of hearing a character speak English, even though I know I was only reading the English while listening to a different language. It's fascinating.

I have had this experience as well, but language is funny that way. In Jim Jarmusch's Night On Earth, two passengers in a Paris taxi are quizzing their African-born driver on where he is from. He mentions that he is "ivoirien" (from the Ivory Coast) and they turn it into a play on words -- "il voit rien," pronounced almost identically, is French for "he sees nothing" (i.e. "he is a blind taxi driver"). I cannot for the life of me remember how they conveyed this in in the English subtitles, though.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:35 AM on June 18, 2010


Raise your hand if you're a subtitles all on the time household. I have a bad ear for accents and I'm easily distracted at home, so the captions help me follow.
posted by The Whelk at 9:36 AM on June 18, 2010 [12 favorites]


Whispers peek out from behind people, shouts dominate the screen, the call of a vampire shows in red and dissolves like blood in water.

Do not want.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:37 AM on June 18, 2010


A friend of mine worked at blockbuster in the UK and was constantly annoyed by the fact that company policy dictated that he had to tell people when they were renting a 'foreign film' that had not been dubbed. Apparently a large percentage of people would decide not to rent something because of it.

One thing I always find frustrating when watching movies in English with Finnish subtitles (I'm effectively bi-lingual), is the "Do you mind..." construction in English. Most Finnish subtitles translate the construction to "May I..." The problem is the response: spoken, they say 'No' while the subtitle says 'Yes'. Depending on the timing of the subtitles/dialogue, this can really pull you out of the film.

And there is no place for yellow subtitles in this universe. Well, except maybe in VHS copies of Chinese martial arts movies with really terrible translations. It's a part of the charm.
posted by slimepuppy at 9:38 AM on June 18, 2010 [2 favorites]


Yellow subtitles are a lot more readable against a black and white movie than white subtitles are.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:41 AM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


The problem is the response: spoken, they say 'No' while the subtitle says 'Yes'.

heh.
posted by infini at 9:41 AM on June 18, 2010


Sometimes I take the smartness game too far and try to watch a film in one language I've studied, with the DVD subtitles set in another (say, a Hindi film with Spanish subs). The end result is usually a headache-inducing mental tug-of-war that yields, if such a thing is possible, negative comprehension. I ask myself, why would a person do that?

Actually, what's almost as bad is watching a film with the subtitles in the same (foreign to me) language as the dubbed voice track. Somehow, even though they're both translations from the same language into the same other language, the dialogue on the screen never matches the dub. Why god why?
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:44 AM on June 18, 2010


Lukyanenko is one of the few authors I give permission to write vampires, the other two being Gaiman who quite thankfully never gives Silas more than an uncle's interest in Nobody Owens, and Pratchett because you might as well have fun with the confluence of vampires and flash photography.

We often watch films with subtitles because one of us is HoH and it's easier than pausing a film to explain what the heck everyone was whispering about.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:49 AM on June 18, 2010


One thing I won't miss are the switchable subtitles on DVDs. They're a simple bitmap that's laid over the image with no anti-alasing, so they have awful jagged edges (see the 8½ screenshot in the linked article). Very ugly and distracting.

BTW: the best subtitles ever (and the source of the do not want meme).
posted by zsazsa at 9:50 AM on June 18, 2010 [11 favorites]


All I ask with subtitles is that they throw a dark border around them. I remember watching a film a few years ago which used all-white letters, and it was mostly fine until there was a scene which featured the two main characters having an extended conversation in a car. The scene was shot through the front window, so the hood took up most of the bottom of the frame. The car was, of course, white, meaning that the entire piece of exposition was completely lost as white text on a white background makes it difficult to follow the nuances of the dialog.
posted by quin at 9:57 AM on June 18, 2010 [2 favorites]


Somehow, even though they're both translations from the same language into the same other language, the dialogue on the screen never matches the dub. Why god why?

The dub translation has to sound good and take exactly the right amount of time to say. Sub translations have a little more flexibility to be closer to the original.
posted by Jeanne at 9:59 AM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


though I will say that its very hard to translate bollywood songs sometimes with any degree of relevance or meaning through the metaphors and idioms that tend to be used

You mean they're supposed to make sense? :)
posted by zarq at 10:30 AM on June 18, 2010


Faint of Butt: "Sometimes I'll watch a subtitled movie and then later realize I have a false memory of hearing a character speak English, even though I know I was only reading the English while listening to a different language. It's fascinating."

Actually, in Hunt for the Red October, they slowly transition from Russian and English subtitles to no subtitles. So you might remember there being subtitles but they're not around for long.
posted by pwnguin at 10:35 AM on June 18, 2010


yes :)

in a way, they evoke emotion
posted by infini at 10:35 AM on June 18, 2010


in a way, they evoke emotion

Oh, definitely. I was joking. :)
posted by zarq at 10:37 AM on June 18, 2010


When I've seen a foreign-language movie enough times, I can turn off the subtitles and follow the dialogue from memory. Once I switch from reading the movie to watching it, it becomes a whole different film. I guess I'm picking up nuances that I missed on earlier viewings, because I was too busy reading the subtitles. It's great, because even if I've seen the movie half a dozen times, I can watch it again with fresh eyes.
posted by twirlip at 10:40 AM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


I suspect the longer they're around, the less distracting they will be. Nondiagetic music was so distracting when it started getting added to films that partrons complained. Now it's just part of the expected film experience. When people expect subtitles to be yellow, they no longer will stand out as being unnatural or distracting.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:42 AM on June 18, 2010


Somehow, even though they're both translations from the same language into the same other language, the dialogue on the screen never matches the dub. Why god why?

The dub translation has to sound good and take exactly the right amount of time to say. Sub translations have a little more flexibility to be closer to the original.
posted by Jeanne at 12:59 PM on June 18 [+] [!]


yeah, I know that's the literal truth. but won't somebody think of the language learners!
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:45 AM on June 18, 2010


Subtitles can be fucked up, though. If you've got a copy of the Gunsmith Cats anime (it's the only one I own, shut up), compare the subtitles to the dubbing- the subtitles are god-awful, while the dubs are reasonably well-acted.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:47 AM on June 18, 2010


I always found it interesting that on some dubbed films, particularly Hong Kong action movies, the english subtitles are often far less dumbed down than the dubbed dialog. In some cases, it's like watching two different movies simultaneously...
posted by nonliteral at 10:53 AM on June 18, 2010


I find it baffling that so many countries watch so many hollywood films in dub, and that actors usually are dubbed by the same voice. I heard a story about a fan revolt when Brad Pitt had a different voice for some movie. I'm glad that the few foreign films we get in theatres in the U.S. are always subtitled (excepting animated features, where I think good dubbing can work).
posted by haveanicesummer at 11:04 AM on June 18, 2010


Sometimes I'm bothered by subtitles in english-speaking films, when they subtitle random dialogue from foreign speakers. In one of the Bourne films there is some wholly unnecessary subtitling in the first scene where they aren't saying anything that you couldn't have grasped from the visuals, and I think the scene would have been more effective without the subtitles.
posted by haveanicesummer at 11:07 AM on June 18, 2010


I recognize that maybe it's a bit of a niche concern, but I'm surprised the author doesn't touch on the typography of subtitles. There are a lot of things that can make me lose interest in a film, but none as quickly as bad typography in the subtitles.
posted by tuck_nroll at 12:22 PM


font freaks are soOoOoooo weird
posted by liza at 11:08 AM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


I grew up watching old foreign films and TV series, and not understanding a lick of the language, developed a quick eye in reading the subtitles (or at least skimming them to get the gist of the context). I'd like to think that helped me better enjoy the imagery without losing sight of what's being said.

I'll still toggle the subtitling option on English-language films, even if the disc only features closed-captioning. It's like having the script for those moments when the audio is a bit too quiet, or drowned in ambient noise, or misheard due to regional accent.

The better subtitling productions often don't try to alter the context or cultural differences to suit the intended audience. I was happy to learn that in the US-production of Miyazaki's "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi" that Disney declined to alter the translation of seal (jitsu-in), although the writers admitted that they found it would have been too difficult to try to explain what it was and why it was so important.

One thing that always irked me was a conspicuous absence of subtitles when the actors were speaking. I remember, as a kid, asking my grandmother what someone was saying in a TV drama when a bit of dialogue between a man and woman didn't have a translation. She gave a long pause, and finally said, "Nothing."
posted by CancerMan at 11:20 AM on June 18, 2010


"Sometimes I take the smartness game too far and try to watch a film in one language I've studied, with the DVD subtitles set in another (say, a Hindi film with Spanish subs)."

I had a similar experience with Predator 2. I was in Spain for a month. The subtitles were in Spanish, the film itself was dubbed in Basque. At the time I think I did pretty well in my overall understanding of the film dialogue.
posted by caution live frogs at 11:23 AM on June 18, 2010


This seems to happen more on Hulu than on broadcast TV, but it's always interesting to see an earlier version of dialogue, but hear the final version.

Has anybody noticed that on In Plain Sight the captions for what's-her-name's voiceover monologues are often (usually?) completely different than what she's saying? But usually come to the same point in the end. My theory is that when someone is rattling along like that, it's hard for captioning to keep up, so they make a different, shorter version. This is based on short-version captions I've seen for briefer individual speeches, too, on various shows.

But I'd be curious to hear others' theories.
posted by not that girl at 11:23 AM on June 18, 2010


Raise your hand if you're a subtitles all on the time household. I have a bad ear for accents and I'm easily distracted at home, so the captions help me follow.

Also, it's great for watching shows when the kids are awake and making noise in the background.
posted by not that girl at 11:26 AM on June 18, 2010


Raise your hand if you're a subtitles all on the time household. I have a bad ear for accents and I'm easily distracted at home, so the captions help me follow.

Right here, but it's mostly because I find modern movies to be mixed horribly.
Which leads to a lot of "What'd he say?" without subtitles.
posted by madajb at 11:42 AM on June 18, 2010


I dunno. My ex was into closed captioning because he was unfamiliar TV American accents and I found it totally disorienting and distracting.
posted by infini at 11:46 AM on June 18, 2010


Has anybody noticed that on In Plain Sight the captions for what's-her-name's voiceover monologues are often (usually?) completely different than what she's saying?

Totally.
Anyone notice the same thing on the actual broadcast?
posted by madajb at 11:48 AM on June 18, 2010


At the invitation of a group of five ESL Hong Kong students years ago, I went to see "The Empress Dowager", a film they highly recommended. The actors spoke Mandarin, which was also written out along the top of the screen. At the bottom, there were two subtitles, in Cantonese and English, one atop the other. All the subtitles were in a somewhat blinding white. I, of course, read the English - a little stilted but it made sense with the images. When we discussed the film later, the students told me they only partly understood the spoken Mandarin, tried their best to decipher the written Mandarin but had trouble, hence relied on the Cantonese and bits of the English subtitles to follow what they were also viewing. They were multi-taskers before their time! BTW, even though I haven't seen this film since, I recall liking it very much - apart from a scene where courtiers spoon the brain out of a live monkey as if it were caviar. Sorry for the visual.
posted by drogien at 11:57 AM on June 18, 2010


Raise your hand if you're a subtitles all on the time household. I have a bad ear for accents and I'm easily distracted at home, so the captions help me follow.

As much as I love Life of Brian, there are some thick accents in that movie, and the complete lack of subtitling on my DVD means that I had to watch it several times in order to figure out what was going on.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:01 PM on June 18, 2010


As much as I love Life of Brian, there are some thick accents in that movie, and the complete lack of subtitling on my DVD means that I had to watch it several times in order to figure out what was going on.

This reminds me of the part in Snatch where Brad Pitt's accent is so think the subtitles throw up their arms in frustration.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:03 PM on June 18, 2010


all I read of the last sentence was 'snatch' 'think' 'frustration' ~ then the scene changed
posted by infini at 12:09 PM on June 18, 2010


Sometimes I'll watch a subtitled movie and then later realize I have a false memory of hearing a character speak English.

I got this effect very strongly after watching Aguirre: The Wrath of God. Later I learned that the movie had been filmed in English and dubbed into German in post. Perhaps some impression of the original language made its way into my subconscious.
posted by Iridic at 12:51 PM on June 18, 2010


*Raises hand* We are a subtitles-always-on household as well. It's really amazing how much disparity there can be in the quality of subtitles, even on big-budget films or high-profile television shows.

Seeing a typographical error or misspelling in a subtitle always makes me need to rewind the film to make sure I was correct in spotting it. It's like seeing a boom mike. Sometimes it seems the subtitlers just wrote them in real-time as they watched the movie, without proofreading, content in the knowledge that no one at the production company is actually going to check their work.

Yes I'm talking to you, JR Media Services of Burbank, CA. Here's a quick tip: you never actually mean "solider". Spellcheck is a crutch.

And I'm guilty of mixing the languages of the audio and subtitles when possible, especially on games (usually only European-made games do this, unsurprisingly). Maybe so I can pretend it's a more educational experience.
posted by Durhey at 1:03 PM on June 18, 2010


Ages ago, I was duly impressed with the subtitling into French of the Marx Brothers' Duck Soup -- they extended the effort of translating the wordplay to the point of renaming Rufus T. Firefly “Antoine,”, so at the point in the script where Groucho tells Mrs. Teasdale "he can always put a Rufus over her head," they can use the French to offer her an "An-toît-ne" (toît being French for roof).
posted by Shepherd at 1:19 PM on June 18, 2010


I dunno. My ex was into closed captioning because he was unfamiliar TV American accents and I found it totally disorienting and distracting.

Totally different thing. I used to have the closed captioning on due to badly mixed movies/tv shows and my my hearing being diminished by misspending my youth in factories and loud bands. Now I keep them on for the hilarity. Among the things I have seen:

In late 2001 the Canadian parliament was debating Bill C-36, which was designed to help fight terrorist-related activities. The CC rendered the words "anti-terrorist bill" as "Yankee terrorist bill."

A late-season X-Files episode had the ersatz-Mulder, Agent Doggett, theorizing about the near-unstoppable Super Soldiers they were facing. His dialogue: "Near as I can tell, they are the results of a government program to make ordinary men invincible." The CC replaced "ordinary" with "ornery" which was also accurate and much more vivid.

A news piece about a controversial artist noted that his work "rasies a middle finger to contemporary morays," which called to mind the image of him going down to the pond and flipping off the eels.

A possible subliminal message: Jon Stewart saying "Welcome to the Daily Show!" was rendered as "Welcome to Democrats!"

A 2003 news piece about the Toronto tourism industry post-SARS outbreak included efforts to assure visitors that they would be "safe from czars."

A documentary on Masada mentioned that the Jews retreated there from the Romans in the year 66, and held out until 70 A.D. or 1788, depending on whether you listened or read.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:49 PM on June 18, 2010 [3 favorites]


Another film that made interesting use of its subtitles ... was Man on Fire

The A-Team has similar stylized subtitles.
posted by ODiV at 2:34 PM on June 18, 2010


One thing I absolutely love about subtitles, even in a film with language I understand, is the ability to watch the movie at 3X or 4X speed and still understand it. This has enabled me to get through some movies that would otherwise be interminable in pacing, or which I'd only watch for the sake of closure.
posted by BrotherCaine at 5:45 PM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


I'm a poor student of French, and so I seek out French movies that have French subtitles. My reading comprehension (poor) is a lot better than my listening comprehension (awful), so having the subtitles there helps a lot. Over time, I've gotten better (though not much) at relating what I hear to what I know from the page.

A great film for comparing class accents in French is Les rivières pourpres. The movie itself is terrible on so many levels, but comparing the accents of the cops to the accents of the professors is extremely interesting. The working class accents of the cops were completely incomprehensible to me without the subtitles.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 6:48 PM on June 18, 2010 [1 favorite]


My hearing is near-perfect, and I prefer subtitles/captioning on. I hate the paraphrasing (just copy and paste the fucking screenplay then set the timing, assholes) or omissions. Mostly what I prefer about them is it allows me to know exactly what the characters are saying, in case a word or two gets garbled due to noise, music, or accent. My wife, on the other hand, with her lousy hearing, for some reason dislikes subtitles altogether.

My wife and I agree on one thing: it sucks when they put the lines on the screen BEFORE they're actually said. It's like mini-spoilers.
posted by grubi at 10:01 PM on June 18, 2010 [2 favorites]


A documentary on Masada mentioned that the Jews retreated there from the Romans in the year 66, and held out until 70 A.D. or 1788, depending on whether you listened or read.

My kids were watching a cartoon today (Fairly Oddparents? Something like that) and the captions repeatedly rendered "coconut bar" as "coco nutbar," which just kept cracking me up for some reasons.
posted by not that girl at 10:12 PM on June 18, 2010


I hate the paraphrasing (just copy and paste the fucking screenplay then set the timing, assholes) or omissions.

Heh. This is partly why things are paraphrased - what's in the script is rarely exactly what's said. But I agree with the non-parenthetical part of your statement.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 12:12 AM on June 19, 2010


I hate the paraphrasing

Translation is paraphrasing. If they just transliterated word by word, you'd get Babelfish.

I'm always happy when I disagree with the way a subtitle was phrased, since it means I understood the dialogue...or misunderstood it.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 12:40 AM on June 19, 2010


I believe the paraphrasing in question is when what is said on the soundtrack is not what is printed in the same-language subtitles. I agree with the hate for it.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:42 AM on June 19, 2010


You got it, Pope Guilty. You hear "Peter and I went up to the Cape for the weekend, and now I'm all sunburned." but you read "I gotma sunburn at the Cape."

BLEARGH
posted by grubi at 6:52 AM on June 19, 2010 [1 favorite]


A friend of mine worked at blockbuster in the UK and was constantly annoyed by the fact that company policy dictated that he had to tell people when they were renting a 'foreign film' that had not been dubbed.

Oh good gracious. A chain-video-store employee did this to us once when my husband and I were renting a subtitled movie. What I wanted to say (but did not) with faux-bright-eyed sincerity was this: "Oh, that's okay, I'll read them outloud to him."
posted by trunk muffins at 10:27 AM on June 19, 2010 [2 favorites]


You may laugh at this, but I worked at Blockbuster when Pan's Labyrinth came out. One Saturday evening I got the following call:

CALLER: Hey, I was just in there and I rented Pan's Labyrinth.
ME: Uh huh.
CALLER: I just started watching it.
ME: Uh huh.
CALLER: It's in SPANISH.
ME: That's true.
CALLER: (Obvious pause to allow me to correct this horrendous mistake)
ME: (Saying nothing)
CALLER: Why isn't it in English?
ME: There are subtitles.
CALLER: If I wanted to read I wouldn't have gotten a movie! Can I come back and get it in English?
ME: They only made it in Spanish.
CALLER: My brother was watching it on HBO this morning and it was in English. That's why I got it.
ME: I don't think that's true.
CALLER: But this one's in SPANISH.
ME: I know.

I also had at least three customers who tried to get a refund for their rental because of this same thing.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:17 PM on June 19, 2010 [5 favorites]


When I'm relaxed and alert, I'm mostly okay with subtitles, and get that effect mentioned above, where I remember the movie being in heavily accented English. But I get annoyed when watching a film over here in Europe, in original English, but when someone speaks something other than English, I get German subtitles (or Dutch w/French, when in Belgium).
posted by Goofyy at 9:27 PM on June 24, 2010


« Older Is this love that I'm feeling? Nope, just the...   |   Quality is the best business plan Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments