Translation: some people will feel bad if this thing is built, and we need to take these feelings into account, even though proponents “have every right to build at this site.”That brought to mind this scene (staring around 2:30).
So let’s try some comparable cases, OK? It causes some people pain to see Jews operating small businesses in non-Jewish neighborhoods; it causes some people pain to see Jews writing for national publications (as I learn from my mailbox most weeks); it causes some people pain to see Jews on the Supreme Court. So would ADL agree that we should ban Jews from these activities, so as to spare these people pain? No? What’s the difference?
Wonkette operative “Evan B.” writes: “The debate over the planned mosque at Ground Zero seems a bit retarded to me; I work directly between the planned mosque and a mosque that has existed before 9/11 and continues to operate to this day. The existing mosque and the proposed mosque are probably 800 feet apart; one city block, let’s say.” This is humorous!FiveThirtyEight: A Street-Level View of the "Ground Zero Mosque"
There's not going to be some huge, ostentatious mosque with some minaret or some giant crescent located "at" Ground Zero, nor within clear sight of it, nor even on the way (in terms of virtually all natural paths a commuter or tourist might take) to Ground Zero. Rather, there's going to be a mixed-use retail building that contains some kind of reformist mosque, located somewhere in its general vicinity -- as there already is now. It would not impose upon or offend anyone unless they were going out of their way to be imposed upon or offended.posted by Rhaomi at 4:55 AM on August 1, 2010 [32 favorites]
Could this thread have gone any more predictably?Here you go.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:28 AM on August 1 [+] [!]
Sure. There's no Meta yet.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:29 AM on August 1 [+] [!]
Good point.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:30 AM on August 1 [+] [!]
I'm not. They don't know how to handle dissent.Looks like they do, actually. You said your piece, the people who disagreed with you said their piece, and you still have an account. By the logic of your original post, you know that you anger and unsettle people on MeFi, so you're the insensitive clod who has no respect for others. Oh, snap!
If the builders of that center don't understand why this is upsetting to New York in general and 911 victim's families in particular they deserve the Insensitive Clods of the Year award. Period.Christians who evangelize in Saudi Arabia are upsetting to many people. Jews who have jobs in government are upsetting to many people. Blacks who want to drink from the same fountains as whites are upsetting to some people. It's a difficult, upsetting world that we live in. The important question is, "What is upsetting, and is it a legitimate grievance that should be honored? Or is it simply bigotry?" For better or worse, the vast majority of New Yorkers -- any much of the rest of the nation -- have decided that it's simply bigotry. You're on the losing side of that argument, statistically speaking. Sorry.
Talk about tone deaf. If they had any compassion or brains they'd build elsewhere. Because if their goal is mutual respect and peace this is a hell of a way to go about it.There's a lot of interesting subtext in this statement, mostly because it demonstrates how thin the "We're not at war with Islam, we're at war with radical terrorists" fig leaf is. For years, it's been said that the real problem with 'Muslim moderates' is that they don't condemn the radicals, that they don't reach out and engage in positive ways, that they're too willing to close ranks and defend terrorists because they're fellow Muslims.
Putting a 15 story mosque inside the world trade center is the biggest fuck you to al-qaeda i can think of.Seriously: we're talking about a community center and place of worship. Religious intolerance should not be answered with religious intolerance. We are better than that.
Sends the right message. America is tolerance. You are twisted, fundamentalist fucks. We won't let you divide the West against the Islamic world. We are one.
For those that do need educating in tolerance, they just got poked in the eye with a sharp stick. The proponents of this site are not being "culturally sensitive" to those who are still insensed that those towers were brought down in the name of Allah.After writing my earlier post, I read what's been said in the interim. I appreciate, Alia, that you're trying to articulate your point in a way that meets the MeFi consensus opinion halfway. (Your most recent post boils down to, 'You people understand tolerance, but those who don't are bothered by this.')
You've got every right in the world to disagree with the majority in this thread. However, to suggest that you're being suppressed because those you disagree with provide evidence for their views and ask you to provide evidence for yours seems a bit odd to me.tdismukes, to be fair to Alia when one finds one's self as the voice of opposition in a thread where pretty much everyone disagrees with you, keeping up can be hard. Whether you're right or wrong, having a dozen people all taking a crack at what you said -- and insisting that you're dodging their insightful rebuttal because you only responded to the other 11 -- is tough.
I'm as much a freedom loving guy as the next, so I don't understand the ADL position that it is just a tasteless place to build. Why not a theme park on German History two blocks from Auschwitz? German is now a great democratic state so what's the problem?Considering the fact that Cordoba House is being built by people who oppose Islamic radicalism, I'd say that it's more analogous to "A museum about Germans who opposed the holocaust." And I don't think many people would find that inappropriate, unless they had some axe to grind about 'The Krauts.'
The community board, made up of...well...PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH THE PLACE IS GOING TO BE BUILT voted overwhelmingly to allow it to move forward. Fuck the polls, if the people who live there support it by a vast majority, it should be built.This is the interesting part. It's not as if a gang of guys in white robes flew in from Saudi Arabia and announced they'd be building a mosque on ground zero.
The United States was founded on principles of religious freedom that Christian fundamentalists are very speedy to invoke when they feel that their own freedoms are being infringed in any way.
I still say this is tonedeaf. For many victim's families this really is, as one letter I saw stated, like having the family of the person who murdered your loved one move next door.But think about it. Would you really have a problem with the family of the murder moving in next door? They had nothing to do with it, they had no control over their relative. And probably, they feel bad and embarrassed. America, to a large extent is about individualism, and that means not holding family members responsible for things their relatives do. If the family backed up and defended the attacker, it would be another issue, but clearly these people don't.
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
Rasmussen polling occupies an odd place in the political culture. In the conservative world, it is the gold standard. If you go to a conservative set on basically any random day, you'll see somebody touting a Rasmussen poll. Here is John McCormack at the Weekly Standard touting a poll showing huge support to repeal the Affordable Care Act. Here is Peter Wehner at Commentary doing the same. Rasmussen frequently asks unusual polling questions that produce results almost certainly calculated to demonstrate public support for the conservative position. (Here's one example of a loaded Rasmussen question.) Rasmussen has become a right-wing celebrity. He's the author of a conservative book. This fall he is a featured guest on National Review's cruise, along with other conservative luminaries.and then there's Harry Enten's hard-core pollster take on the issue.
Part of Rasmussen's celebrity status derives from the fact that even his polls on commonly-asked questions skew strongly toward the conservative position.
How do we know that a percentage of the tithe in a new mosque doesn't go to the top of the Islam religion, who support stoning for adultery, and capital punishment for people who try to leave the religion? Not to mention cutting off your hands(s) for stealing.Now is the time for the slow-clapping.
Ezra Levant column on the topic. I have no way to confirm or deny his ostensibly factual statements. It is encouraged to debate those ostensibly factual statement rather than the ostensible reputation of the writer.The headline is, "Should we build a mega-mosque at Ground Zero?" I don't know what that writer's reputation is, and I have no comment on it, but nine words into his column he'd already made significant two factual errors.
I'm a Muslim, but calling it "not a mosque" is a bit of a red herring. There's still a prayer center where the daily and Friday prayers will be held. There will be classes and activities just like "regular" mosques. It's a community center with an embedded mosque, basically, no matter how else it's billed. The idiots kvetching at it won't really care either way because it's connected to Muslims.By that standard, O'Hare airport is a church.
You people are having such fun with your wacky analogies that you're entirely missing Burhanistan's point, which is that whether you say it is a mosque or just a building that contains a mosque doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the bigots who don't want it there.There is nothing wacky about that analogy; it's not even an analogy. I can attend Christian church services in a dedicated chapel at O'hare airport.
It isn't "technically" a mosque from a fiqh perspective. But that whole argument is really beside the point. It's an Islamic center that is being protested.And that's my point. It's an Islamic community center, and that's what they are protesting. Christians helped construct a community center in my town, and they called it just that: a community center. The fact that they brought kids tere every halloween to tell them about Jesus, held worship services there on Saturday nights, and conducted all-night prayer vigils, didn't stop them from saying it was a "community center" and not a "church."
Ok, then we were talking somewhat at cross purposes then, and are in basic agreement about it.I also re-read over what we both said, and after taking a breather I understand what you're saying as well: it's technically not a mosque, but it is a place where Muslims will worship and connect spiritually, and so on. By the standards of those who are objecting, it is effectively a mosque.
Bin Laden would sooner dispatch a truck bomb to destroy the Cordoba Initiative's proposed community center than he would attack the ADL{....} al Qaeda's goal is the purification of Islam (that is to say, its extreme understanding of Islam) and apostates pose more of a threat to Bin Laden's understanding of Islam than do infidels.Meanwhile, Sen. Joe Lieberman sticks to vague fear-mongering as he joins the pile-on: "I've also read some things about some of the people involved that make me wonder about their motivations. So I don't know enough to reach a conclusion, but I know enough to say that this thing is only going to create more division in our society, and somebody ought to put the brakes on it".
I know Feisal Abdul Rauf; I've spoken with him at a public discussion at the 96th street mosque in New York about interfaith cooperation. He represents what Bin Laden fears most: a Muslim who believes that it is possible to remain true to the values of Islam and, at the same time, to be a loyal citizen of a Western, non-Muslim country. Bin Laden wants a clash of civilizations; the opponents of the this mosque project are giving him what he wants.
"Mr. Gingrich, while recognizing that there are more than 100 mosques already in New York City, said, 'There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia.'"*FWIW -- The Vatican has been negotiating for permission to build the first church in Saudi Arabia with talks beginning in 2008.
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,posted by ericb at 2:04 PM on August 3, 2010 [3 favorites]
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
The American Center for Law and Justice, founded by the Reverend Pat Robertson, plans to file a petition that the Landmarks Preservation Commission acted arbitrarily and abused its discretion.It's just pathetic how far they twist logic to try to make it sound like they aren't just a bunch of bigots. "We must preserve this precious ex-Burlington Coat Factory outlet store, for it has such historic value to outerwear enthusiasts and garment sales historians worldwide!" Give me a break.
This comes after the panel voted unanimously to deny landmark status to the building at 45 Park Place that would be torn down so the mosque can be built.
According to the State Department's assessment, "Hamas terrorists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks, including large-scale suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets."You know what? It is a complex question. Hamas is not just an anti-Israel organization. It's also the largest supplier of humanitarian aid to Palestinians. It's not a bunch of hippies holding hands and singing, but even that link there says that a particular faction of Hamas has committed terrorist acts. Moreover, what the hell does that matter? Lots of fundamentalist Christian pastors refused to condemn Eric Rudolph, and we let them build churches. Should they submit a questionnaire to you before being able to practice their religion freely in the US?
Asked if he agreed with the State Department's assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, "Look, I'm not a politician.
"The issue of terrorism is a very complex question," he told interviewer Aaron Klein.
source (the wholly unbiased New York Post)
The F.B.I. said Imam Feisal had helped agents reach out to the Muslim population after Sept. 11. “We’ve had positive interactions with him in the past,” said an agency spokesman, Richard Kolk.The whole thing is just oddly unsatisfying.
The Cordoba Initiative hasn’t yet begun fundraising for its $100 million goal. The group’s latest fundraising report with the state attorney general’s office, from 2008, shows exactly $18,255 — not enough even for a down payment on the half of the site the group has yet to purchase.[via]
The group also lacks even the most basic real estate essentials: no blueprint, architect, lobbyist or engineer — and now operates amid crushing negative publicity. The developers didn't line up advance support for the project from other religious leaders in the city, who could have risen to their defense with the press.
"The real story of the Ground Zero mosque is that the project only became feasible because of the appalling and astonishing fecklessness of the officials who were charged with the reconstruction of the site and the neighborhood all the way back in 2001. "posted by Joe in Australia at 5:51 PM on August 19, 2010
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posted by amro at 2:41 AM on August 1, 2010 [11 favorites]