March.
October 26, 2004 3:13 AM Subscribe
I have traditionally disliked Eminem because of his sometimes powerfully divisive message.
That said, the video and song is damn powerful. After all this time, Eminem might finally be growing the hell up.
Even better, though... this video is freely available on archive.org.
posted by insomnia_lj at 3:23 AM on October 26, 2004
That said, the video and song is damn powerful. After all this time, Eminem might finally be growing the hell up.
Even better, though... this video is freely available on archive.org.
posted by insomnia_lj at 3:23 AM on October 26, 2004
Obviously doesn't hate Bush as much as he hates losing money.
posted by fullerine at 3:23 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by fullerine at 3:23 AM on October 26, 2004
If Bush wins this election, consider your options. If Bush STEALS this election, get out of the USA. Seriously.
Maybe you claim political asylum somewhere.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 3:29 AM on October 26, 2004
Maybe you claim political asylum somewhere.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 3:29 AM on October 26, 2004
Superb superb song. Should have been released a month ago.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 3:41 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by Pretty_Generic at 3:41 AM on October 26, 2004
Wonder why so late? This might've had some effect on young voters had it been played on MTV for the last month.
posted by LouReedsSon at 3:59 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by LouReedsSon at 3:59 AM on October 26, 2004
His record label Vivendi Universal (who just MAYBE chose to release the god-awful Just Lose It before this, and who just MAYBE like having Bush in charge) are showing the video too, but of course they require registration.
Verily I shall bugmenot on their ass.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:02 AM on October 26, 2004
Verily I shall bugmenot on their ass.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:02 AM on October 26, 2004
Real and WindowsMedia
Username: BushBash2004
Password: vote
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:09 AM on October 26, 2004
Username: BushBash2004
Password: vote
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:09 AM on October 26, 2004
[Children speaking]
I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republic for which it stands
One nation under God
Indivisible…
[Eminem]
People, this is it. It feels so good to be back…
Scrutinize every word. Memorize every line. I spit it once, refuel, reenergize, and rewind. I give sight to the blind, my insight through the mind. I exercise my right to express when I feel it's time.
It's just all in your mind, what you interpret it as; I say to fight, you take it as “I’m’a whip someone's ass.” If you don't understand, don't even bother to ask a father who has grown up with a fatherless past, who has blown up now to a rap phenomenon that has – or at least shows – no difficulty multitasking and juggling both; perhaps mastered his craft, slash-entrepreneur who has helped launch a few more rap acts, who has had a few obstacles thrown his way through the last half of his career. Typical manure. Moving past that. Mister kiss-his-ass-crack, he's a class act; rubber band man, yeah, he just snaps back.
Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel. We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors. Come on!
To the people up top, on the side and the middle: Come together, let's all bond and swamp just a little. Just let it gradually build, from the front to the back; all you can see is a sea of people, some white and some black. Don't matter what color, all that matters is we’re gathered together to celebrate for the same cause, no matter the weather. If it rains let it rain – yeah, the wetter the better! They ain’t gon’ stop us – they can't – we’re stronger now, more then ever.
They tell us “No,” we say “Yeah;” they tell us “Stop,” we say “Go.” Rebel with a rebel yell, raise hell – we gon’ let ‘em know. Stomp, push, shove, mush – fuck Bush. Until they bring our troops home!
Come on just . . .
Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel. We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors. Come on!
Imagine it pouring, it's raining down on us, mosh pits outside the Oval Office. Someone's trying to tell us something. Maybe this is God just saying we're responsible for this monster, this coward that we have empowered. This is Bin Laden – look at his head nodding. How could we allow something like this, without pumping our fists?
Now this is our final hour; let me be the voice and your strength, and your choice. Let me simplify the rhyme, just to amplify the noise. Try to amplify, times it, and multiply it by sixteen million people, all equal at this high pitch.
Maybe we can reach al-Qaida through my speech. Let the president answer our high anarchy. Strap him with an AK-47. Let him go fight his own war, let him impress daddy that way. No more blood for oil, we got our own battles to fight on our soil. No more psychological warfare to trick us to thinking that we ain't loyal if we don't serve our own country; we're patronizing a hero. Look in his eyes, it's all lies. The stars and stripes? They've been swiped, washed out and wiped, and replaced with his own face. Mosh now or die.
If I get sniped tonight, you'll know why: ‘Cause I told you to fight!
Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel. We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors. Come on!
And as we proceed to mosh through this desert storm in these closing statements … If they should argue, let us beg to differ as we set aside our differences, and assemble our own army to disarm this weapon of mass destruction that we call our president, for the present … and mosh for the future of our next generation, to speak and be heard … Mr. President? Mr. Senator?
[Child’s voice]
Can you guys hear us?
[Children’s laughter]
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:35 AM on October 26, 2004
I pledge allegiance to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republic for which it stands
One nation under God
Indivisible…
[Eminem]
People, this is it. It feels so good to be back…
Scrutinize every word. Memorize every line. I spit it once, refuel, reenergize, and rewind. I give sight to the blind, my insight through the mind. I exercise my right to express when I feel it's time.
It's just all in your mind, what you interpret it as; I say to fight, you take it as “I’m’a whip someone's ass.” If you don't understand, don't even bother to ask a father who has grown up with a fatherless past, who has blown up now to a rap phenomenon that has – or at least shows – no difficulty multitasking and juggling both; perhaps mastered his craft, slash-entrepreneur who has helped launch a few more rap acts, who has had a few obstacles thrown his way through the last half of his career. Typical manure. Moving past that. Mister kiss-his-ass-crack, he's a class act; rubber band man, yeah, he just snaps back.
Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel. We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors. Come on!
To the people up top, on the side and the middle: Come together, let's all bond and swamp just a little. Just let it gradually build, from the front to the back; all you can see is a sea of people, some white and some black. Don't matter what color, all that matters is we’re gathered together to celebrate for the same cause, no matter the weather. If it rains let it rain – yeah, the wetter the better! They ain’t gon’ stop us – they can't – we’re stronger now, more then ever.
They tell us “No,” we say “Yeah;” they tell us “Stop,” we say “Go.” Rebel with a rebel yell, raise hell – we gon’ let ‘em know. Stomp, push, shove, mush – fuck Bush. Until they bring our troops home!
Come on just . . .
Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel. We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors. Come on!
Imagine it pouring, it's raining down on us, mosh pits outside the Oval Office. Someone's trying to tell us something. Maybe this is God just saying we're responsible for this monster, this coward that we have empowered. This is Bin Laden – look at his head nodding. How could we allow something like this, without pumping our fists?
Now this is our final hour; let me be the voice and your strength, and your choice. Let me simplify the rhyme, just to amplify the noise. Try to amplify, times it, and multiply it by sixteen million people, all equal at this high pitch.
Maybe we can reach al-Qaida through my speech. Let the president answer our high anarchy. Strap him with an AK-47. Let him go fight his own war, let him impress daddy that way. No more blood for oil, we got our own battles to fight on our soil. No more psychological warfare to trick us to thinking that we ain't loyal if we don't serve our own country; we're patronizing a hero. Look in his eyes, it's all lies. The stars and stripes? They've been swiped, washed out and wiped, and replaced with his own face. Mosh now or die.
If I get sniped tonight, you'll know why: ‘Cause I told you to fight!
Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel. We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors. Come on!
And as we proceed to mosh through this desert storm in these closing statements … If they should argue, let us beg to differ as we set aside our differences, and assemble our own army to disarm this weapon of mass destruction that we call our president, for the present … and mosh for the future of our next generation, to speak and be heard … Mr. President? Mr. Senator?
[Child’s voice]
Can you guys hear us?
[Children’s laughter]
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:35 AM on October 26, 2004
[this is good]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:38 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:38 AM on October 26, 2004
"Voters typically know incumbents well and have strong opinions about their performance. Challengers are less familiar and invariably fall short on straightforward comparisons of experience and (in the presidential arena) command of foreign policy. Some voters find themselves conflicted - dissatisfied with the incumbent yet also wary of the challenger - and may carry that uncertainty through the final days of the campaign and sometimes right into the voting booth. Among the perpetually conflicted, the attitudes about the incumbent are usually more predictive of these conflicted voters' final decision than their lingering doubts about the challenger. Thus, in the campaign's last hours, we tend to see 'undecided' voters 'break' for the challenger."
- Mark Blumental, pollster
We're gonna win!
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:50 AM on October 26, 2004
- Mark Blumental, pollster
We're gonna win!
posted by Pretty_Generic at 4:50 AM on October 26, 2004
Homophobia: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
18th century gender mores: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Cynical pandering: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Arrogance: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Face like a horse's ass: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Oh, well. I guess, for the next seven days, he's our bastard.
Right?
*retch*
posted by stonerose at 5:39 AM on October 26, 2004
18th century gender mores: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Cynical pandering: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Arrogance: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Face like a horse's ass: Bush, yes. Eminem, yes.
Oh, well. I guess, for the next seven days, he's our bastard.
Right?
*retch*
posted by stonerose at 5:39 AM on October 26, 2004
stonerose: the main thing they have in common is that they're both very good at manipulating the masses. It's just one of them happens to be an entertainer and the other happens to rule the free world.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 5:45 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by Pretty_Generic at 5:45 AM on October 26, 2004
I seem to be missing the part of the brain that allows one to enjoy the work of Mr. Eminem. I find him boring, bullying, self-absorbed, and ultimately, not at all entertaining. But if he actually tips any votes in favor of Kerry, I'll be impressed.
posted by Outlawyr at 6:05 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by Outlawyr at 6:05 AM on October 26, 2004
I find the animation crummy and the rapping shoddy. At least he is using the venue to encourage young folks to vote, despite the fact that the message comes long after voter registration for this election has ceased. It is a nice, but late, attempt.
posted by sciurus at 6:11 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by sciurus at 6:11 AM on October 26, 2004
I seem to be missing the part of the brain that allows one to enjoy the work of Mr. Eminem.
It was probably bludgeoned to death by the part that calls him "Mr".
posted by jpoulos at 6:25 AM on October 26, 2004
It was probably bludgeoned to death by the part that calls him "Mr".
posted by jpoulos at 6:25 AM on October 26, 2004
one of them happens to be an entertainer and the other happens to rule the free world
Sure, but many would argue that the distinction between those categories is rapidly losing any meaning. In any case, they both work in the realm of ideas. Usually, bad ideas.
posted by stonerose at 6:27 AM on October 26, 2004
Sure, but many would argue that the distinction between those categories is rapidly losing any meaning. In any case, they both work in the realm of ideas. Usually, bad ideas.
posted by stonerose at 6:27 AM on October 26, 2004
"Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel. We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors. Come on!"
These words could just as easily have come from a Bush inc. troop rallying speech. Trust me. Follow me. I'll lead you through this scary dark time. Anger, Fear, Follow the Leader.
How about this idea; educate yourself and vote for the person you think will help you and your country out of this mess.
posted by Outlawyr at 6:27 AM on October 26, 2004
These words could just as easily have come from a Bush inc. troop rallying speech. Trust me. Follow me. I'll lead you through this scary dark time. Anger, Fear, Follow the Leader.
How about this idea; educate yourself and vote for the person you think will help you and your country out of this mess.
posted by Outlawyr at 6:27 AM on October 26, 2004
Neat video, but aside from the visual message, which I agree is very strong, the rap itself lacks any meat and comes across to me as a simple twist on the usual rap meme of look-at-me-i'm-the-best-buy-my-records. Eminem may be voting for Kerry, but I think this is more of a publicity stunt for Eminem than anything else. There's no such thing as bad advertising for a musician, is there?
/cynical viewpoint
posted by ashbury at 6:39 AM on October 26, 2004
/cynical viewpoint
posted by ashbury at 6:39 AM on October 26, 2004
I think that if you remove personal discussion of Eminem from the discussion, and focus on the message, its pretty scary.
These words could just as easily have come from a Bush inc. troop rallying speech. Trust me. Follow me. I'll lead you through this scary dark time. Anger, Fear, Follow the Leader.
How about this idea; educate yourself and vote for the person you think will help you and your country out of this mess.
How about educate yourself (which is partly the message of the song I think - ie "No more blood for oil, we got our own battles to fight on our soil"), but be ready to fight if (when?) the right tries to steal another election from you. This is the problem with you American Liberals - you guys pretty much let Bush steal the election without a fight.
That is the message of the song. Don't let them bully you.
posted by Quartermass at 6:49 AM on October 26, 2004
These words could just as easily have come from a Bush inc. troop rallying speech. Trust me. Follow me. I'll lead you through this scary dark time. Anger, Fear, Follow the Leader.
How about this idea; educate yourself and vote for the person you think will help you and your country out of this mess.
How about educate yourself (which is partly the message of the song I think - ie "No more blood for oil, we got our own battles to fight on our soil"), but be ready to fight if (when?) the right tries to steal another election from you. This is the problem with you American Liberals - you guys pretty much let Bush steal the election without a fight.
That is the message of the song. Don't let them bully you.
posted by Quartermass at 6:49 AM on October 26, 2004
No, the message is; follow me and I won't let them bully you.
"follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong." Etc. General Eminem is rallying the troops to follow him, give him strength, place your faith in him. We suck up to one bully so he'll protect us from another bully. He stands above all the others, he preaches to them/us. He tells us what to do. It's just more ego driven crap.
posted by Outlawyr at 7:08 AM on October 26, 2004
"follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong." Etc. General Eminem is rallying the troops to follow him, give him strength, place your faith in him. We suck up to one bully so he'll protect us from another bully. He stands above all the others, he preaches to them/us. He tells us what to do. It's just more ego driven crap.
posted by Outlawyr at 7:08 AM on October 26, 2004
That was one of the first things that struck me too, outlawr - that there were a lot of I's and me's. Perhaps that's simply the way people who use this sort of medium (rap and hip hop) speak, but it smacked too much of "don't listen to him, listen to me". Either way, this video wasn't for my eyes and ears, it was for Eminem's legion of sheep fans who might not vote if it weren't for Eminem telling them to. (of course, if they didn't register, it's too late, isn't it, which is another reason why I suspect Eminem. He has the sense to time things better, as he's shown quite well in the past.)
posted by ashbury at 7:21 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by ashbury at 7:21 AM on October 26, 2004
Wonder why so late?
Are you asking that about the artist....or about those who've had to be dragged kicking and screaming into finally acknowledging that they were utterly wrong to support Bush and his yellow war?
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 7:23 AM on October 26, 2004
Are you asking that about the artist....or about those who've had to be dragged kicking and screaming into finally acknowledging that they were utterly wrong to support Bush and his yellow war?
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 7:23 AM on October 26, 2004
Jesus Christ, people, he's just an entertainer. Sure, he might convince little Johnny to stick it to his old man and vote for Kerry, but giving Eminem this kind of power is almost, but not quite, as bad as giving it to Dubya.
posted by bondcliff at 7:30 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by bondcliff at 7:30 AM on October 26, 2004
By the way, there are states where it's still not too late to register. My state, Minnesota, for example, allows registration on the day of the election.
posted by jnthnjng at 7:31 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by jnthnjng at 7:31 AM on October 26, 2004
Song is mediocre. Video and message is excellent, I think.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:11 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:11 AM on October 26, 2004
ahem, *are* excellent, sorry
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:12 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 8:12 AM on October 26, 2004
It's no "Have You Forgotten." In fact, it barely registers on the Toby Keith scale.
posted by Stan Chin at 8:20 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by Stan Chin at 8:20 AM on October 26, 2004
The visual is powerful - I enjoyed the ultra-fluid 2d silhouettes.
I don't 100% get eminem but I can assure you that reading his lyrics and parsing the words is not really the way to understand his appeal. Fulminating on his moral bankruptcy gets you nothing either - moral bankruptcy is his street cred.
The main thing that I see here is that he knows his audience has no faith in the president anymore. His audience? He is really big with low-income young men - whites, blacks and hispanics. Just like the guys who are serving on the front lines. He does appeal to a big segment of middle class and upper class America, but he talks about growing up poor all the time.
This strikes me as a bellwether. Michael Moore style propaganda is now coming from mainstream artists. The Bush white house has lost the PR war with the American people. I don't think the general public has the stomach for another thousand casualties and I think that the young men that we need to fight the war don't have any faith in Bush.
posted by rks404 at 8:23 AM on October 26, 2004
I don't 100% get eminem but I can assure you that reading his lyrics and parsing the words is not really the way to understand his appeal. Fulminating on his moral bankruptcy gets you nothing either - moral bankruptcy is his street cred.
The main thing that I see here is that he knows his audience has no faith in the president anymore. His audience? He is really big with low-income young men - whites, blacks and hispanics. Just like the guys who are serving on the front lines. He does appeal to a big segment of middle class and upper class America, but he talks about growing up poor all the time.
This strikes me as a bellwether. Michael Moore style propaganda is now coming from mainstream artists. The Bush white house has lost the PR war with the American people. I don't think the general public has the stomach for another thousand casualties and I think that the young men that we need to fight the war don't have any faith in Bush.
posted by rks404 at 8:23 AM on October 26, 2004
The Bush white house has lost the PR war with the American people.
???
I wish that were true, but wishing won't make it so.
posted by Outlawyr at 8:51 AM on October 26, 2004
???
I wish that were true, but wishing won't make it so.
posted by Outlawyr at 8:51 AM on October 26, 2004
It's demagoguery and I absolutely love it, it makes me proud to be an American in a nightmarish cyberpunk 2004 dystopia.
posted by inksyndicate at 8:56 AM on October 26, 2004
posted by inksyndicate at 8:56 AM on October 26, 2004
Come on kids! Let's put on our black hoodies and play Follow the Emperor!
posted by Outlawyr at 9:18 AM on October 26, 2004
This might've had some effect on young voters had it been played on MTV for the last month.
And then MTV would have been required to show pro-Bush programming as well, for balance.
posted by kindall at 11:31 AM on October 26, 2004
And then MTV would have been required to show pro-Bush programming as well, for balance.
posted by kindall at 11:31 AM on October 26, 2004
I liked it, if only because it's been so long since I've seen popular hip-hop that wasn't about drugs, money and/or sex.
I don't care if it sways votes, or anything... I'm just glad to see a mainstream hip-hop artist attempting political content again.
posted by mosch at 11:38 AM on October 26, 2004
I don't care if it sways votes, or anything... I'm just glad to see a mainstream hip-hop artist attempting political content again.
posted by mosch at 11:38 AM on October 26, 2004
Eminem's legion of sheep fans who might not vote if it weren't for Eminem telling them to.
Look, Ashbury, I'm an eminem fan. Despite his homophobia, arrogance, etc. -- those things are irrellevant; he's a musician. In particular, an extraordinarily talented emcee. Listen to the individual syllables in here (as in, listen to this part of the song; don't just read it):
1. scrutinize/memorize/reenergize/exercise
2. word/line/refuel/rewind (sonnet form, if you want to catagorize)
3. sight-blind/insight-mind/right-express-time
4. I'm not about to chart all of them, but individual vowels are varied and bump up against each other nicely.
And this, of course, is entirely leaving out the way the words are said; a good portion of eminem's appeal is his technique (flow, polyrhythms, etc.).
posted by Tlogmer at 12:39 PM on October 26, 2004
Look, Ashbury, I'm an eminem fan. Despite his homophobia, arrogance, etc. -- those things are irrellevant; he's a musician. In particular, an extraordinarily talented emcee. Listen to the individual syllables in here (as in, listen to this part of the song; don't just read it):
Scrutinize every word. Memorize every line. I spit it once, refuel, reenergize, and rewind. I give sight to the blind, my insight through the mind. I exercise my right to express when I feel it's time.A couple of the cool things apparent on first glance:
1. scrutinize/memorize/reenergize/exercise
2. word/line/refuel/rewind (sonnet form, if you want to catagorize)
3. sight-blind/insight-mind/right-express-time
4. I'm not about to chart all of them, but individual vowels are varied and bump up against each other nicely.
And this, of course, is entirely leaving out the way the words are said; a good portion of eminem's appeal is his technique (flow, polyrhythms, etc.).
posted by Tlogmer at 12:39 PM on October 26, 2004
i think rks404 nailed it. this video is a *huge* surprise for me. a year ago (even months ago), there's no way i could have seen Eminem doing this. i still don't believe it today. it's almost like a dream ...
i also agree with mosch. a very refreshing change of subject matter for mainstream rap.
I don't think the general public has the stomach for another thousand casualties and I think that the young men that we need to fight the war don't have any faith in Bush.
i think you're wrong about the general public, and right about the young men.
the public has never had a problem with high body counts, as long as they think they're winning (and its not their sons dying).
the soldiers are a different story. the big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is that the troops are informed and the public isn't, instead of the other way around. compare TV coverage of Vietnam (lots of raw footage) to TV coverage of Iraq (lots of people on TV talking). compare what a U.S. serviceman knows about WMDs in Iraq to what a U.S. serviceman knew about communism in Vietnam.
the center cannot hold.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:44 PM on October 26, 2004
i also agree with mosch. a very refreshing change of subject matter for mainstream rap.
I don't think the general public has the stomach for another thousand casualties and I think that the young men that we need to fight the war don't have any faith in Bush.
i think you're wrong about the general public, and right about the young men.
the public has never had a problem with high body counts, as long as they think they're winning (and its not their sons dying).
the soldiers are a different story. the big difference between Vietnam and Iraq is that the troops are informed and the public isn't, instead of the other way around. compare TV coverage of Vietnam (lots of raw footage) to TV coverage of Iraq (lots of people on TV talking). compare what a U.S. serviceman knows about WMDs in Iraq to what a U.S. serviceman knew about communism in Vietnam.
the center cannot hold.
posted by mrgrimm at 12:44 PM on October 26, 2004
Never enjoyed an Eminem song before today. I agree with insomnia_lj, it's pretty powerful.
Will it make a difference in the election? Probably not.
posted by eyeballkid at 1:07 PM on October 26, 2004
Will it make a difference in the election? Probably not.
posted by eyeballkid at 1:07 PM on October 26, 2004
individual vowels are varied and bump up against each other nicely.
I feel kinda turned on.
posted by eatitlive at 1:10 PM on October 26, 2004
I feel kinda turned on.
posted by eatitlive at 1:10 PM on October 26, 2004
And then MTV would have been required to show pro-Bush programming as well, for balance.
Ummm, no. The Fairness Doctrine was abolished during the Reagan era. Not to mention the fact that cable stations are not held to the same standard as broadcast channels.
posted by Juicylicious at 1:25 PM on October 26, 2004
Ummm, no. The Fairness Doctrine was abolished during the Reagan era. Not to mention the fact that cable stations are not held to the same standard as broadcast channels.
posted by Juicylicious at 1:25 PM on October 26, 2004
And then MTV would have been required to show pro-Bush programming as well, for balance.
Ummm, no. The Fairness Doctrine was abolished during the Reagan era. Not to mention the fact that cable stations are not held to the same standard as broadcast channels.
posted by Juicylicious at 1:25 PM on October 26, 2004
Ummm, no. The Fairness Doctrine was abolished during the Reagan era. Not to mention the fact that cable stations are not held to the same standard as broadcast channels.
posted by Juicylicious at 1:25 PM on October 26, 2004
tlogmer, I don't know what your point is as regards to voting. Yeah, he might be amazing, but did he make you wanna vote, and if so, are you voting for him or against Bush?
posted by ashbury at 1:32 PM on October 26, 2004
posted by ashbury at 1:32 PM on October 26, 2004
are you voting for him or against Bush?
him = eminem, by the way.
posted by ashbury at 1:34 PM on October 26, 2004
him = eminem, by the way.
posted by ashbury at 1:34 PM on October 26, 2004
Did ,a href="http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/36517#756744"> someone ask for Toby Keith? Check out Honkey Talkers for Truth for another musical response to Bush in an interesting genre.
posted by vitpil at 2:08 PM on October 26, 2004
posted by vitpil at 2:08 PM on October 26, 2004
Gah, sorry about that. It should be:
Did someone ask for Toby Keith? Check out Honkey Talkers for Truth for another musical response to Bush in an interesting genre.
posted by vitpil at 2:12 PM on October 26, 2004
Did someone ask for Toby Keith? Check out Honkey Talkers for Truth for another musical response to Bush in an interesting genre.
posted by vitpil at 2:12 PM on October 26, 2004
So he knows how to rhyme. Great. That doesn't make the song good.
If he were really cool he would have ended with this:
The alliance will die. As will your friends. Good, I can feel your anger. I am unarmed. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete.
posted by Outlawyr at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2004
If he were really cool he would have ended with this:
The alliance will die. As will your friends. Good, I can feel your anger. I am unarmed. Take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete.
posted by Outlawyr at 2:22 PM on October 26, 2004
Yes, I see you're obsessed with a motion picture from 1977. There are many medicines to treat you.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 2:33 PM on October 26, 2004
posted by Pretty_Generic at 2:33 PM on October 26, 2004
Despite his homophobia, arrogance, etc. -- those things are irrellevant;[sic] he's a musician.
Tlogmer, I generally respect your opinions, but really... think about what your statement entails: 'he's a musician who makes controversial political/ethical statements... but don't bother judging him on that basis; after all, he's just a musician.'
Do you want to let me know when I should take an artist's opinions seriously? Because apparently, I shouldn't decide this on the basis of what the artist says or writes. Better yet, go tell it to some closeted ghetto gay kid. They're the ones who have to deal directly with the social dysfunction Eminem helps to create and sustain.
posted by stonerose at 5:53 PM on October 26, 2004
Tlogmer, I generally respect your opinions, but really... think about what your statement entails: 'he's a musician who makes controversial political/ethical statements... but don't bother judging him on that basis; after all, he's just a musician.'
Do you want to let me know when I should take an artist's opinions seriously? Because apparently, I shouldn't decide this on the basis of what the artist says or writes. Better yet, go tell it to some closeted ghetto gay kid. They're the ones who have to deal directly with the social dysfunction Eminem helps to create and sustain.
posted by stonerose at 5:53 PM on October 26, 2004
Would have been good if it wasn't spoilt (like all his stuff) with his rampant bloated arrogance and inflated self-regard; it's like floating a turd in a puch-bowl and inviting everyone to the party. Shame.
posted by Blue Stone at 6:20 PM on October 26, 2004
posted by Blue Stone at 6:20 PM on October 26, 2004
Fair point, stonerose. But judging musicians on their politics is always a tough call. Wagner wrote amazing, amazing music, and he was a fascist. Does that mean his music shouldn't be performed? I don't think so (disclaimer: I write (amateur) music myself), but the point is that reasonable people can disagree on it.
Of course, Wagner's music doesn't have lyrics and eminem's does; often damaging ones. But what pisses me off is that people like Outlawyr, who don't understand hiphop, assume that his music is only about the lyrical content. It's not -- yes, rap-pop tends toward the banal, but so does most pop; hiphop, as a medium, is as complex, varied, and filled with potential as classical music, jazz, or indy pop. In 50 years, young post-hiphop artists will be protesting about being pushed aside by the Lincoln Center in favor of money-losing performances of Lose Yourself. (Sidenote, pushing the analogy much too far: eminiem is sort of the hiphop Dave Brubeck -- white, popular, accessible, overshadowing equally talented black emcees. But still great music.)
That was the attitude I was responding to; maybe I went overboard in defending this particular emcee. ("I'm a fan of eminem" -- that could be amended to "I'm a fan of eminem's music".)
go tell it to some closeted ghetto gay kid.
I actually went out with a guy who grew up in central detroit (not the ghetto, really, but close enough). And yes, his life was hell before he got out and into the University of Michigan (partly because his orientation's too obvious for him to hide, though of course being closeted isn't much better). I do mean hell; if not for antidepressants, he probably wouldn't be here.
But though eminem's homophobia's done damage, it's worth looking at in cultural context. The level of anti-gay bigotry in poor areas (especially poor african american ones) is un-fucking-believable. But eminem's not doing carribbean dance-hall calling for literal gay-burnings. His use of "fag" smarts me as much as it does you, and as much as "nigger" would a black person, but it's a word that, to most of his audience, no longer means "gay". It means "faggy", in the most stereotypical sense (weak, inept, tasteless, subhuman), but not homosexual.
And yes, these things are tied together, functionally, but it's always worth distinguishing effective bigotry from intended bigotry. (Not doing so is the biggest thing that's cut off academia from the rest of the country.) This bigotry isn't intended, and eminem's gone to pains (perhaps prodded by his managers in the face of boycotts, perhaps not -- for all I know eminem's spent the last 2 years in a continuous heroin haze; he's going to have an immensely entertaining Behind the Music) to moderate his image: including (and defending) a sympathetic gay character in his movie, performing duets with Elton John, etc.
Thinking this over again, I do actually have a sort of "thanks, but fuck you" response to this video, emotionally, but I haven't decided whether it's totally warranted. In the areas with the most homophobia, it comes from everywhere; whatever tiny reinforcement the occasional "fag" lyric gives is lost in a sea of similar content (and probably counterbalanced by eminem's radical (for those areas) public acceptance of gays). For people who listen to a lot of hiphop, he's only one of hundreds of other emcees.
So he knows how to rhyme. Great. That doesn't make the song good.
Sorry, but you don't understand hiphop. It's not poetry set to a beat. If you want me to point out more of what makes the song good, I'll do it.
I don't know what your point is as regards to voting.
No point whatsoever. If anything, I was trying to turn the discussion away from the election.
posted by Tlogmer at 7:24 PM on October 26, 2004
Of course, Wagner's music doesn't have lyrics and eminem's does; often damaging ones. But what pisses me off is that people like Outlawyr, who don't understand hiphop, assume that his music is only about the lyrical content. It's not -- yes, rap-pop tends toward the banal, but so does most pop; hiphop, as a medium, is as complex, varied, and filled with potential as classical music, jazz, or indy pop. In 50 years, young post-hiphop artists will be protesting about being pushed aside by the Lincoln Center in favor of money-losing performances of Lose Yourself. (Sidenote, pushing the analogy much too far: eminiem is sort of the hiphop Dave Brubeck -- white, popular, accessible, overshadowing equally talented black emcees. But still great music.)
That was the attitude I was responding to; maybe I went overboard in defending this particular emcee. ("I'm a fan of eminem" -- that could be amended to "I'm a fan of eminem's music".)
go tell it to some closeted ghetto gay kid.
I actually went out with a guy who grew up in central detroit (not the ghetto, really, but close enough). And yes, his life was hell before he got out and into the University of Michigan (partly because his orientation's too obvious for him to hide, though of course being closeted isn't much better). I do mean hell; if not for antidepressants, he probably wouldn't be here.
But though eminem's homophobia's done damage, it's worth looking at in cultural context. The level of anti-gay bigotry in poor areas (especially poor african american ones) is un-fucking-believable. But eminem's not doing carribbean dance-hall calling for literal gay-burnings. His use of "fag" smarts me as much as it does you, and as much as "nigger" would a black person, but it's a word that, to most of his audience, no longer means "gay". It means "faggy", in the most stereotypical sense (weak, inept, tasteless, subhuman), but not homosexual.
And yes, these things are tied together, functionally, but it's always worth distinguishing effective bigotry from intended bigotry. (Not doing so is the biggest thing that's cut off academia from the rest of the country.) This bigotry isn't intended, and eminem's gone to pains (perhaps prodded by his managers in the face of boycotts, perhaps not -- for all I know eminem's spent the last 2 years in a continuous heroin haze; he's going to have an immensely entertaining Behind the Music) to moderate his image: including (and defending) a sympathetic gay character in his movie, performing duets with Elton John, etc.
Thinking this over again, I do actually have a sort of "thanks, but fuck you" response to this video, emotionally, but I haven't decided whether it's totally warranted. In the areas with the most homophobia, it comes from everywhere; whatever tiny reinforcement the occasional "fag" lyric gives is lost in a sea of similar content (and probably counterbalanced by eminem's radical (for those areas) public acceptance of gays). For people who listen to a lot of hiphop, he's only one of hundreds of other emcees.
So he knows how to rhyme. Great. That doesn't make the song good.
Sorry, but you don't understand hiphop. It's not poetry set to a beat. If you want me to point out more of what makes the song good, I'll do it.
I don't know what your point is as regards to voting.
No point whatsoever. If anything, I was trying to turn the discussion away from the election.
posted by Tlogmer at 7:24 PM on October 26, 2004
Actually, I'll make that official: Thanks, but fuck you. (Thinking about what I'd do if this was 1961 and he was saying "nigger-lover".) I still like the music, though.
posted by Tlogmer at 7:40 PM on October 26, 2004
posted by Tlogmer at 7:40 PM on October 26, 2004
How incredibly lame of Blue Stone, Outlawyr, etc. These are the same kind of people who would criticized "What's Going On" or "War" or "Imagine" for political reasons had the times been different.
To them, it's not about the music, but about whether the music supports their ideology -- sort of like the American equivalent of China's Cultural Revolutionaries, waving their little red books in people's faces. Their doctrinaire beliefs have apparently left them tonedeaf, and unable to recognize a good rap when they hear it.
When a rap artist talks about gangbangin', pimpin', or killing people, that's ok, as the status quo is safely protected. They'll humor the artist, and even get up on their feet to do the "white boy shuffle" should circumstances be appropriate.
But when a rapper talks about voting, that's a threat.
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:41 PM on October 26, 2004
To them, it's not about the music, but about whether the music supports their ideology -- sort of like the American equivalent of China's Cultural Revolutionaries, waving their little red books in people's faces. Their doctrinaire beliefs have apparently left them tonedeaf, and unable to recognize a good rap when they hear it.
When a rap artist talks about gangbangin', pimpin', or killing people, that's ok, as the status quo is safely protected. They'll humor the artist, and even get up on their feet to do the "white boy shuffle" should circumstances be appropriate.
But when a rapper talks about voting, that's a threat.
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:41 PM on October 26, 2004
I think it's good and powerful, but i still dislike and distrust him. Hopefully, it will remind kids to vote (which was well done in the video, and also a reminder of voter suppression past and present)--There's a campaign on to get MTV to play it more on TRL. (Who would have thought Howard Stern and Eminem would turn out to be so pro-voting?)
posted by amberglow at 7:42 PM on October 26, 2004
posted by amberglow at 7:42 PM on October 26, 2004
When a rap artist talks about gangbangin', pimpin', or killing people, that's ok, as the status quo is safely protected.
Says who? This is one of the very reasons that I don't like the genre, whether it's true to life or not. I realize that these artists are describing how life is in their neighborhoods, but that still doesn't make it ok to often glorify in it.
To them, it's not about the music, but about whether the music supports their ideology -- sort of like the American equivalent of China's Cultural Revolutionaries, waving their little red books in people's faces. Their doctrinaire beliefs have apparently left them tonedeaf, and unable to recognize a good rap when they hear it.
I haven't paid attention to the political leanings of bluestone and outlawyr, but I don't believe they are against the message, they simply don't like Eminem. And they don't have to. I realize that the discussion is polarized between Eminem the artist and this particular message vs. Eminem and his trademarked arrogance, homophobia, etc. As any discussion involving Eminem and rap will eventually become.
The thing that these people don't like about Eminem, as I see it, is that he isn't very trustworthy. Is he using the current election as a form of furthering his career or does he really care about who wins this election? I can't tell without hearing what he says in an interview about his political leanings, so I have to remain ambivalent about his intentions. THe message is important, however, and if he clears things up for anybody then his job is well done.
As tlogmer mentions above, Wagner was a fascist who made beautiful music which was open to interpretation. Eminem on the other hand makes it very clear how his words and music should be interpreted, so the comparison isn't very good. I think it's impossible in this case to separate the message from the messenger.
Despite his homophobia, arrogance, etc. -- those things are irrellevant;[sic] he's a musician.
And just for the record, I do believe that artists can and should throw their weight around concerning hot issues. What makes them any more or any less able to make decisions or have feelings about these circumstances than anybody else? Musicians often walk on a "higher" plane than most of us, but this doesn't give them carte blanche to behave any way they want to, which is yet another reason why rap music bothers me: given a chance to change their world, rappers instead often rap about drugs, murder, immoral living, etc. I realize I'm painting with a broad brush, but as far as I'm concerned, this is the way it is.
Anyway, I'm losing whatever point I was trying to make...
Amberglow said it best: I think it's good and powerful, but i still dislike and distrust him.
posted by ashbury at 8:21 PM on October 26, 2004
Says who? This is one of the very reasons that I don't like the genre, whether it's true to life or not. I realize that these artists are describing how life is in their neighborhoods, but that still doesn't make it ok to often glorify in it.
To them, it's not about the music, but about whether the music supports their ideology -- sort of like the American equivalent of China's Cultural Revolutionaries, waving their little red books in people's faces. Their doctrinaire beliefs have apparently left them tonedeaf, and unable to recognize a good rap when they hear it.
I haven't paid attention to the political leanings of bluestone and outlawyr, but I don't believe they are against the message, they simply don't like Eminem. And they don't have to. I realize that the discussion is polarized between Eminem the artist and this particular message vs. Eminem and his trademarked arrogance, homophobia, etc. As any discussion involving Eminem and rap will eventually become.
The thing that these people don't like about Eminem, as I see it, is that he isn't very trustworthy. Is he using the current election as a form of furthering his career or does he really care about who wins this election? I can't tell without hearing what he says in an interview about his political leanings, so I have to remain ambivalent about his intentions. THe message is important, however, and if he clears things up for anybody then his job is well done.
As tlogmer mentions above, Wagner was a fascist who made beautiful music which was open to interpretation. Eminem on the other hand makes it very clear how his words and music should be interpreted, so the comparison isn't very good. I think it's impossible in this case to separate the message from the messenger.
Despite his homophobia, arrogance, etc. -- those things are irrellevant;[sic] he's a musician.
And just for the record, I do believe that artists can and should throw their weight around concerning hot issues. What makes them any more or any less able to make decisions or have feelings about these circumstances than anybody else? Musicians often walk on a "higher" plane than most of us, but this doesn't give them carte blanche to behave any way they want to, which is yet another reason why rap music bothers me: given a chance to change their world, rappers instead often rap about drugs, murder, immoral living, etc. I realize I'm painting with a broad brush, but as far as I'm concerned, this is the way it is.
Anyway, I'm losing whatever point I was trying to make...
Amberglow said it best: I think it's good and powerful, but i still dislike and distrust him.
posted by ashbury at 8:21 PM on October 26, 2004
1. Eminem's music is open to interpretation. (Less so than wagner's, of course.) And when rappers talk about shooting people, it's often tongue-in-cheek.
2. Bashing an emcee for arrogance is like bashing a writer for using MS Word. It's not an important part of the music.
posted by Tlogmer at 9:17 PM on October 26, 2004
2. Bashing an emcee for arrogance is like bashing a writer for using MS Word. It's not an important part of the music.
posted by Tlogmer at 9:17 PM on October 26, 2004
Another great anti-Bush music video, from Skinny Puppy spin-off Ohgr: Majik.
posted by homunculus at 9:36 PM on October 26, 2004
posted by homunculus at 9:36 PM on October 26, 2004
Who on earth suggested that one ought to like or trust pop musicians? In my experience at least, they're often complete assholes, whether they raaaaawk or not.
More so if they have teh Rawk, even.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:46 PM on October 26, 2004
More so if they have teh Rawk, even.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:46 PM on October 26, 2004
Mosh the Vote: Wear a black hoodie on election day.
The Politics of Mosh.
I'm aware that Eminem has unsavory qualities and I've never really liked hip-hop terribly much anyway, but he's clearly fucking brilliant. About 18 months ago I heard a terrific analysis of his work by a literature professor, probably on Chicago's WBEZ (I've searched the NPR archives). It was the most illuminating analysis of an artistic work -- that I didn't understand -- that I'd heard since, well, Leonard Bernstein explaining the musical concepts behind Tristan und Isolde as expressed in as few as two or three notes in combination.
The video has many subtleties: the soldier gets past the cops by wearing his uniform, the riot cops turn out to be blocking polling places, the framing of the opening scene is masterful in giving us a chilling dissonance. (Both this video and Fahrenheit 9/11 had the planes crash into he towers offscreen. Both Fahrenhype 9/11 and Celsius 41.1 show the crashes and explosions -- in their trailers. Discuss.) Putting himself into the Bush seat, even for a moment, was mind-bending (and the book was upside down, just like that popular UL). This is a major work, despite the "crude" animation (which I think is meant to contrast with the clips from "reality" as well as act iconically). And yes, he talks that way -- all the Is and mes -- because that's a conceit of his (he even turned a song about his daughter into a whinefest); here he's using his Pied Piper position as a call to arms, turning a focus on the self into selflessness, which is itself interesting.
posted by dhartung at 1:36 AM on October 27, 2004
The Politics of Mosh.
I'm aware that Eminem has unsavory qualities and I've never really liked hip-hop terribly much anyway, but he's clearly fucking brilliant. About 18 months ago I heard a terrific analysis of his work by a literature professor, probably on Chicago's WBEZ (I've searched the NPR archives). It was the most illuminating analysis of an artistic work -- that I didn't understand -- that I'd heard since, well, Leonard Bernstein explaining the musical concepts behind Tristan und Isolde as expressed in as few as two or three notes in combination.
The video has many subtleties: the soldier gets past the cops by wearing his uniform, the riot cops turn out to be blocking polling places, the framing of the opening scene is masterful in giving us a chilling dissonance. (Both this video and Fahrenheit 9/11 had the planes crash into he towers offscreen. Both Fahrenhype 9/11 and Celsius 41.1 show the crashes and explosions -- in their trailers. Discuss.) Putting himself into the Bush seat, even for a moment, was mind-bending (and the book was upside down, just like that popular UL). This is a major work, despite the "crude" animation (which I think is meant to contrast with the clips from "reality" as well as act iconically). And yes, he talks that way -- all the Is and mes -- because that's a conceit of his (he even turned a song about his daughter into a whinefest); here he's using his Pied Piper position as a call to arms, turning a focus on the self into selflessness, which is itself interesting.
posted by dhartung at 1:36 AM on October 27, 2004
I liked it. I also like Eminem, as I tend to get that "Slim Shady" is an ironic character he created to play the part of a mainstream hip hop artist, which he does brilliantly and somewhat subversively.
posted by The God Complex at 3:25 AM on October 27, 2004
posted by The God Complex at 3:25 AM on October 27, 2004
Dhartung, I hope you are the canary in Bush's coalmine.
posted by crasspastor at 5:30 AM on October 27, 2004
posted by crasspastor at 5:30 AM on October 27, 2004
"But what pisses me off is that people like Outlawyr, who don't understand hiphop, assume that his music is only about the lyrical content."
Why do you assume that I don't understand hiphop, because I don't like Emperor Eminem? Why would I think it's only about lyrical content?
"It's not poetry set to a beat."
Boy is that an understatement. Lyrics don't need to be poetry to be good, but these lyrics are neither good nor poetry. But what's really most distressing about your post Tlogmer is the strained apology for Eminem's homophobic lyrics. To say it's only a drop in a bucket is to ignore how the bucket became so full.
As for insomnia_lj, you need to develop your critical reading skills.
For the record, I love music of all genres, but do not like Eminem. I do not like George Bush. I do like Star Wars, but I believe the quote was from Return of the Jedi, which came out after 1977, but before last week, which seems to be the only relevant frame of reference for some. I dislike people who try to convince others to put on the same uniform and march behind them, regardless the cause. We can work together for social and political justice without losing our individuality and without placing our faith in self appointed leaders. That's what America is (supposed to be) all about, baby.
posted by Outlawyr at 6:47 AM on October 27, 2004
Why do you assume that I don't understand hiphop, because I don't like Emperor Eminem? Why would I think it's only about lyrical content?
"It's not poetry set to a beat."
Boy is that an understatement. Lyrics don't need to be poetry to be good, but these lyrics are neither good nor poetry. But what's really most distressing about your post Tlogmer is the strained apology for Eminem's homophobic lyrics. To say it's only a drop in a bucket is to ignore how the bucket became so full.
As for insomnia_lj, you need to develop your critical reading skills.
For the record, I love music of all genres, but do not like Eminem. I do not like George Bush. I do like Star Wars, but I believe the quote was from Return of the Jedi, which came out after 1977, but before last week, which seems to be the only relevant frame of reference for some. I dislike people who try to convince others to put on the same uniform and march behind them, regardless the cause. We can work together for social and political justice without losing our individuality and without placing our faith in self appointed leaders. That's what America is (supposed to be) all about, baby.
posted by Outlawyr at 6:47 AM on October 27, 2004
I'll probably get called a racist and a snob for raising this question, but... when an artist's fanbase is composed largely (not exclusively or even primarily, mind you) of a great many uneducated "take things as I see them" people, isn't that artist's use of irony somewhat problematic? I'm not saying "you're not allowed to be ironic, because your audience doesn't know how to take it" - I'm honestly trying to puzzle through how we deal with that.
I think if an artist really cares about conveying a message, sees that his message is being misconstrued or misused, and doesn't take steps to counter that, then irony becomes dicey terrain. What steps should s/he take? I dunno. Maybe this, along with his renunciation of homophobia in his movie, are Eminem's attempt to take those steps.
posted by stonerose at 6:54 AM on October 27, 2004
I think if an artist really cares about conveying a message, sees that his message is being misconstrued or misused, and doesn't take steps to counter that, then irony becomes dicey terrain. What steps should s/he take? I dunno. Maybe this, along with his renunciation of homophobia in his movie, are Eminem's attempt to take those steps.
posted by stonerose at 6:54 AM on October 27, 2004
I'm intrigued by the way the video evokes the rage and discontent of hip hop and other dystopic urban visions (going all the way back to Blade Runner) only to channel it into a civics lesson: Get Out And Vote. It's like Schoolhouse Rock meets Grand Theft Auto. (And that's not to diminish the video's effectiveness, either. I can still sing the Schoolhouse Rock songs.) The similarity between the video's animation and game animations or anime intrigues me, too.
I dislike people who try to convince others to put on the same uniform and march behind them, regardless the cause.
We all do. But look at it purely on the level of the video. When "the mob" races in to the building they've gathered in front of, they stop, line up, and sign in to vote. They act as individuals. That's what fascinates me. Behind the very powerful anger of the video, is a very optimistic and moderate message. Be a citizen. Do your duty. Vote.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:21 AM on October 27, 2004
I dislike people who try to convince others to put on the same uniform and march behind them, regardless the cause.
We all do. But look at it purely on the level of the video. When "the mob" races in to the building they've gathered in front of, they stop, line up, and sign in to vote. They act as individuals. That's what fascinates me. Behind the very powerful anger of the video, is a very optimistic and moderate message. Be a citizen. Do your duty. Vote.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:21 AM on October 27, 2004
The problem some of us have tho, is that the mob is fired up, inspired, and led, by a white guy (similar to Bush himself, as Eminem admits by putting himself in Bush's place in the schoolroom).
What's the difference between following Eminem or following Bush? Why do the people need to be led so directly to the polling place? (We're all reading too much into this tho, i admit.)
posted by amberglow at 8:11 AM on October 27, 2004
What's the difference between following Eminem or following Bush? Why do the people need to be led so directly to the polling place? (We're all reading too much into this tho, i admit.)
posted by amberglow at 8:11 AM on October 27, 2004
Well, like I said before, if he actually tips any votes in favor of Kerry, I'll be impressed.
Perhaps we're already seeing results of The Eminem Effect in today's good poll results
; )
posted by Outlawyr at 8:39 AM on October 27, 2004
Perhaps we're already seeing results of The Eminem Effect in today's good poll results
; )
posted by Outlawyr at 8:39 AM on October 27, 2004
One of the differences between Eminem and Bush is expressed in these lines, maybe:
"Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness
As I provide just enough spark, that we need to proceed
Carry on, give me hope, give me strength ..."
For all his conceit, Eminem is careful not to promise too much. He's only offering "just enough spark" that "we" need. Then he turns back to us and asks us to give him hope and strength. He's obviously--in the context of the song and the video--rejecting the role of anything more than a guide. Why do we need a guide? Because we've found ourselves in a dark place. "Mi ritrovai per una selva oscura."
Of course, that's Eminem the fictional speaker of lyrics. Emimen the historical person is something else entirely, and I share many of the qualms people have about him.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:03 AM on October 27, 2004
"Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness
As I provide just enough spark, that we need to proceed
Carry on, give me hope, give me strength ..."
For all his conceit, Eminem is careful not to promise too much. He's only offering "just enough spark" that "we" need. Then he turns back to us and asks us to give him hope and strength. He's obviously--in the context of the song and the video--rejecting the role of anything more than a guide. Why do we need a guide? Because we've found ourselves in a dark place. "Mi ritrovai per una selva oscura."
Of course, that's Eminem the fictional speaker of lyrics. Emimen the historical person is something else entirely, and I share many of the qualms people have about him.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:03 AM on October 27, 2004
But what's really most distressing about your post Tlogmer is the strained apology for Eminem's homophobic lyrics.
Read my post again. Understanding the context of those lyrics is most certainly not apologizing for them. Hence the "fuck you". (I might add that if I was aplogizing for them, the other LGBT members would have ripped me a new one. The only one calling it an apology is you.)
Lyrics don't need to be poetry to be good, but these lyrics are neither good nor poetry.
Lyrics shouldn't be poetry. Poetry is a different medium. Lyrics are lyrics. And rap lyrics are something else entirely. If you want to put forward some intelligent arguments about why these lyrics are bad, feel free, and maybe I'll reconsider my judgement of your hiphop cred.
posted by Tlogmer at 9:39 AM on October 27, 2004
Read my post again. Understanding the context of those lyrics is most certainly not apologizing for them. Hence the "fuck you". (I might add that if I was aplogizing for them, the other LGBT members would have ripped me a new one. The only one calling it an apology is you.)
Lyrics don't need to be poetry to be good, but these lyrics are neither good nor poetry.
Lyrics shouldn't be poetry. Poetry is a different medium. Lyrics are lyrics. And rap lyrics are something else entirely. If you want to put forward some intelligent arguments about why these lyrics are bad, feel free, and maybe I'll reconsider my judgement of your hiphop cred.
posted by Tlogmer at 9:39 AM on October 27, 2004
I seem to be late to the party but I wanted to link to this thread about Ann Coulter. There was some debate about Trailerparkocracy. I brought up Eminem:
Yes, it IS lame to quote myself.
At the grammy awards in 2000 Moby put a Gore-Lieberman sticker on the podium. Eminem came up a bit later and said something like, "Bush. Gore. It's looks to me like they're both playing for the same team." I don't know if he's changed his mind on that, but it looks like he sees more than a dime's worth of difference in the players this time around.
posted by putzface_dickman at 10:31 AM on October 27, 2004
... not to be an apologist for working class bigots, but there's hardly any ocracy in the trailerpark. Eminen may serve as an example to discuss. Certainly popular, certainly using bigoted language, but if his world view is us against them, like Coulter's is, the them has more to do with money and power than in how he weighs the value of human beings.
Yes, it IS lame to quote myself.
At the grammy awards in 2000 Moby put a Gore-Lieberman sticker on the podium. Eminem came up a bit later and said something like, "Bush. Gore. It's looks to me like they're both playing for the same team." I don't know if he's changed his mind on that, but it looks like he sees more than a dime's worth of difference in the players this time around.
posted by putzface_dickman at 10:31 AM on October 27, 2004
Just to respond to ^Insomnia_lj's criticism^ - um ... huh?
Insomnia_lj, I liked the music and the way he raps, parts of it are ... excellent ... powerful :
But throughout his work is the guy's unbridled egomania, and it's just ... pathetic. Really.
I bought the Marshall Mathers LP. The only rap-related thing I've ever bought. Musically, it's great. Impressed the first time I heard that stuff on the radio.
But once I got past the the first few plays and started listening to what he was really on about , it was just ... sad: 'Stan' superficially great - start listening to what he's saying and it's just one big ego wank. Embarassing. And it's a common theme.
The almost "worship me" shit in this track, is ... I dunno. When Michael Jackson tried it, it (and he) was a joke. With Eminem, it strikes me as being an illness, and here, actually a pretty dark and evil thing. Pretty fucked-up.
That's what I meant by the turd in the punchbowl analogy.
Where you got the idea that I prefer rap artists to only sing about crack dealing and killing cops, I have no idea.
posted by Blue Stone at 11:51 AM on October 27, 2004
Insomnia_lj, I liked the music and the way he raps, parts of it are ... excellent ... powerful :
"Look in his eyes, it's all lies. The stars and stripes? They've been swiped, washed out and wiped, and replaced with his own face. Mosh now or die."Kick arse. Really.
But throughout his work is the guy's unbridled egomania, and it's just ... pathetic. Really.
I bought the Marshall Mathers LP. The only rap-related thing I've ever bought. Musically, it's great. Impressed the first time I heard that stuff on the radio.
But once I got past the the first few plays and started listening to what he was really on about , it was just ... sad: 'Stan' superficially great - start listening to what he's saying and it's just one big ego wank. Embarassing. And it's a common theme.
The almost "worship me" shit in this track, is ... I dunno. When Michael Jackson tried it, it (and he) was a joke. With Eminem, it strikes me as being an illness, and here, actually a pretty dark and evil thing. Pretty fucked-up.
That's what I meant by the turd in the punchbowl analogy.
Where you got the idea that I prefer rap artists to only sing about crack dealing and killing cops, I have no idea.
posted by Blue Stone at 11:51 AM on October 27, 2004
A small point about comparing Wagner and Eminem: lyrics are central to both of their music! Wagner wrote opera (or to be more specific: music drama), and was very clear in his theories about the relationship between music, the message, and performance (the Gesamtkunstwerk). And he wrote essays and books about the relationship between music and politics (see "Art and Revolution" especially). So the comparison is more apt than many people are recognizing here. Perhaps Wagner is taken more seriously, and apologies for his fascist ideas are more accepted, because he wrote in a recognized "high" musical form?
Thanks for a very interesting discussion!
posted by vitpil at 12:07 PM on October 27, 2004
Thanks for a very interesting discussion!
posted by vitpil at 12:07 PM on October 27, 2004
"If you want to put forward some intelligent arguments about why these lyrics are bad, feel free, and maybe I'll reconsider my judgement of your hiphop cred."
My criticism of the lyrics was primarily based on his egomania and his desire to lead the angry masses. I'm not seeking your judgment of my "hiphop cred," whatever that might be. The lyrics are bad because his ego gets in the way of whatever political message he's trying to communicate.
posted by Outlawyr at 12:36 PM on October 27, 2004
My criticism of the lyrics was primarily based on his egomania and his desire to lead the angry masses. I'm not seeking your judgment of my "hiphop cred," whatever that might be. The lyrics are bad because his ego gets in the way of whatever political message he's trying to communicate.
posted by Outlawyr at 12:36 PM on October 27, 2004
Even if the song amounted to just "I'm cool", with no other message whatsoever, it could still be good. Rap is about wordplay and, to put it cornily, word-music; how it sounds is as important as what it says (sometimes more). Having a message makes it even better, of course, but it's far from essential.
posted by Tlogmer at 1:44 PM on October 27, 2004
posted by Tlogmer at 1:44 PM on October 27, 2004
Yeah, except within the song itself he says, "Scrutinize every word," and most of the people here who like the song like it because of the political message. So hiding behind "how it sounds is as important as what it says" won't cut it. Eminem is obviously attempting to make a bold political statement with this song (and the video). He invites us to scrutinize the words. Well I have, and I find them to be essentially self serving.
posted by Outlawyr at 2:07 PM on October 27, 2004
posted by Outlawyr at 2:07 PM on October 27, 2004
I'm not arguing that Mosh is an effective political message (though I think it is). I'm arguing that it's a good song. Anyway, I think "scrutinize every word" is broader than just "scrutinize every word I'm saying".
posted by Tlogmer at 4:42 PM on October 27, 2004
posted by Tlogmer at 4:42 PM on October 27, 2004
My criticism of the lyrics was primarily based on his egomania and his desire to lead the angry masses.
Or as Eminem says "I say to fight you take it as I'm gonna whip someone's ass ..." In other words, when I tell people to fight for their right to vote, I'll inevitably be accused of being an egomanic or worse. I call for political action and you think I want to burn your house down. Why is that?
I think you're confusing Marshall Mathers III--who wouldn't be my first choice to lead anything, honestly--with Eminem, the character in the song/video, who speaks as an angry Everyman calling for people to rise up and "throw the bums out." This Eminem does want to lead people--to the voting booth. This Eminem does lead a hoodie-clad army--which he casts off at the end to show--horror of horrors!--his shirt and tie. Hell, it's the hip hop equivalent of Getting Clean With Gene. And that's, as I've said, is what fascinates me most about this video, the sunny political optimism behind it's dark facade. Yes, it says, we can change things. We can make things better. This might be politically unsophisticated, but it's hardly the fascism you're hinting at. If you'd care to elaborate on why you think the message is self-serving, please do. So far you've merely suggested that Eminem looks like the Emperor from Return of the Jedi.
(Criticism? I think the beats are a little sludgy. It works brilliantly with its video, but I think it would start to bore on the radio.)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:47 PM on October 27, 2004
Or as Eminem says "I say to fight you take it as I'm gonna whip someone's ass ..." In other words, when I tell people to fight for their right to vote, I'll inevitably be accused of being an egomanic or worse. I call for political action and you think I want to burn your house down. Why is that?
I think you're confusing Marshall Mathers III--who wouldn't be my first choice to lead anything, honestly--with Eminem, the character in the song/video, who speaks as an angry Everyman calling for people to rise up and "throw the bums out." This Eminem does want to lead people--to the voting booth. This Eminem does lead a hoodie-clad army--which he casts off at the end to show--horror of horrors!--his shirt and tie. Hell, it's the hip hop equivalent of Getting Clean With Gene. And that's, as I've said, is what fascinates me most about this video, the sunny political optimism behind it's dark facade. Yes, it says, we can change things. We can make things better. This might be politically unsophisticated, but it's hardly the fascism you're hinting at. If you'd care to elaborate on why you think the message is self-serving, please do. So far you've merely suggested that Eminem looks like the Emperor from Return of the Jedi.
(Criticism? I think the beats are a little sludgy. It works brilliantly with its video, but I think it would start to bore on the radio.)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:47 PM on October 27, 2004
So I found another Eminem/GNN video: White America. There's a really cool cameo appearance in it I hadn't heard about. When the scene cuts to the studio, and the camera starts to zoom in through the glass of the recording booth, pay particular attention to the man on the left shaking his head. I have to admit, I was pretty surprised.
posted by trondant at 8:40 PM on October 27, 2004
posted by trondant at 8:40 PM on October 27, 2004
"If you'd care to elaborate on why you think the message is self-serving, please do."
My god, I don't know how much clearer I can be.
One More Time:
Here is the first part of the chorus of the song:
"Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel."
He starts out telling us to follow him as he leads. The song doesn't once use the word vote. Don't confuse the video with the song. The song is a call to action, but the action is not voting. These are the actions he advocates as we follow his lead and put our faith in him:
"We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors"
"They tell us “No,” we say “Yeah;” they tell us “Stop,” we say “Go.” Rebel with a rebel yell, raise hell – we gon’ let ‘em know. Stomp, push, shove, mush – fuck Bush. Until they bring our troops home!"
"Let the president answer our high anarchy. Strap him with an AK-47. Let him go fight his own war, let him impress daddy that way."
and finally, the closest he gets to saying go out and vote:
"If they should argue, let us beg to differ as we set aside our differences, and assemble our own army to disarm this weapon of mass destruction that we call our president, for the present … and mosh for the future of our next generation, to speak and be heard … Mr. President? Mr. Senator?"
Of course disarming the President could mean things other than voting him out of office. Had I not seen the video I would assume his political message is this, follow Eminem, join together with others who follow him, give him the power to have his voice heard as he voices his disaproval of the current situation.
Which is fine, as far as it goes, except that it relies on the listener giving their power to Eminem and trusting him to lead them to some form or social or political justice. At a minimum I find that silly.
So, finally, my problem with the song (which is, after all, the only part Eminem created; the video is by Ian Inaba and Anson Vogt among others) is that the primary message is let Eminem lead you, place your faith in him. I trust him as much as I trust George Bush, and that's really saying something.
I dearly hope that the song/video does motivate some people to vote for Kerry. This is a close election, every vote matters. I'm glad Eminem is trying to do something positive, but I think his message gets muddled and mixed with the usual chest beating and whining.
posted by Outlawyr at 7:57 AM on October 28, 2004
My god, I don't know how much clearer I can be.
One More Time:
Here is the first part of the chorus of the song:
"Come along, follow me as I lead through the darkness, as I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed. Carry on, give me hope, give me strength, come with me and I won't steer you wrong. Put your faith in your trust as I guide us through the fog, till the light at the end of the tunnel."
He starts out telling us to follow him as he leads. The song doesn't once use the word vote. Don't confuse the video with the song. The song is a call to action, but the action is not voting. These are the actions he advocates as we follow his lead and put our faith in him:
"We gon’ fight, we gon’ charge, we gon’ stomp, we gon’ march through the swamp; we gon’ mosh through the marsh, take us right through the doors"
"They tell us “No,” we say “Yeah;” they tell us “Stop,” we say “Go.” Rebel with a rebel yell, raise hell – we gon’ let ‘em know. Stomp, push, shove, mush – fuck Bush. Until they bring our troops home!"
"Let the president answer our high anarchy. Strap him with an AK-47. Let him go fight his own war, let him impress daddy that way."
and finally, the closest he gets to saying go out and vote:
"If they should argue, let us beg to differ as we set aside our differences, and assemble our own army to disarm this weapon of mass destruction that we call our president, for the present … and mosh for the future of our next generation, to speak and be heard … Mr. President? Mr. Senator?"
Of course disarming the President could mean things other than voting him out of office. Had I not seen the video I would assume his political message is this, follow Eminem, join together with others who follow him, give him the power to have his voice heard as he voices his disaproval of the current situation.
Which is fine, as far as it goes, except that it relies on the listener giving their power to Eminem and trusting him to lead them to some form or social or political justice. At a minimum I find that silly.
So, finally, my problem with the song (which is, after all, the only part Eminem created; the video is by Ian Inaba and Anson Vogt among others) is that the primary message is let Eminem lead you, place your faith in him. I trust him as much as I trust George Bush, and that's really saying something.
I dearly hope that the song/video does motivate some people to vote for Kerry. This is a close election, every vote matters. I'm glad Eminem is trying to do something positive, but I think his message gets muddled and mixed with the usual chest beating and whining.
posted by Outlawyr at 7:57 AM on October 28, 2004
trondant, I don't recognize any of those guys. Who are they?
posted by putzface_dickman at 10:27 AM on October 28, 2004
posted by putzface_dickman at 10:27 AM on October 28, 2004
epilog
Eminem Has Bodyguard Drop Off Ballot
Eminem made his voice heard for the first time at the ballot box. The 32-year-old rapper voted by absentee ballot in Tuesday's presidential election and had a bodyguard drop it off, township clerk Dennis Tomlinson said.
"This guy (the bodyguard) was huge. I'd hate to run into him in a dark alley late at night," Tomlinson told The Macomb Daily of Mount Clemens.
No word on who Eminem voted for. In a recent interview with Rolling Stone, he said it would be his first time voting. He was highly critical of President Bush but had not yet settled on Democrat John Kerry.
The rapper had been enlisted by hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons to help encourage thousands of young fans to vote. His music even made it into the campaign: Democratic contender Dick Gephardt played "Lose Yourself" on the trail.
posted by Outlawyr at 11:38 AM on November 8, 2004
Eminem Has Bodyguard Drop Off Ballot
Eminem made his voice heard for the first time at the ballot box. The 32-year-old rapper voted by absentee ballot in Tuesday's presidential election and had a bodyguard drop it off, township clerk Dennis Tomlinson said.
"This guy (the bodyguard) was huge. I'd hate to run into him in a dark alley late at night," Tomlinson told The Macomb Daily of Mount Clemens.
No word on who Eminem voted for. In a recent interview with Rolling Stone, he said it would be his first time voting. He was highly critical of President Bush but had not yet settled on Democrat John Kerry.
The rapper had been enlisted by hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons to help encourage thousands of young fans to vote. His music even made it into the campaign: Democratic contender Dick Gephardt played "Lose Yourself" on the trail.
posted by Outlawyr at 11:38 AM on November 8, 2004
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posted by dhartung at 3:15 AM on October 26, 2004