Space is the Place
May 2, 2006 7:41 AM Subscribe
Cash in your space game bucks with an ATM card. The online game Entropia now provides players with a real life ATM card, that will convert your galactic booty into actual dollars.
Just wait until those Korean WOW gold farmers invade this turf.
posted by sourwookie at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by sourwookie at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2006
Wow, that's depressing, Freen. Interesting read, although I don't know what I think of it just yet.
posted by blacklite at 9:02 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by blacklite at 9:02 AM on May 2, 2006
Hey, is that a Sun Ra allusion?
posted by ITheCosmos at 9:03 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by ITheCosmos at 9:03 AM on May 2, 2006
I wonder if this could be parleyed into a real micropayments system, that is, better than paypal?
posted by hattifattener at 9:25 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by hattifattener at 9:25 AM on May 2, 2006
Freen, that article is a both humorous and saddening exploration of hyperrreality...thanks.
posted by youarenothere at 9:48 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by youarenothere at 9:48 AM on May 2, 2006
I did the Entropia thing for a few months. The problem for me was, because the game credits are convertible to cash they have tight reins on the economy so playing is like gambling. In fact you buy every "bullet" you fire and all your gear wears out and needs repair ($). For me games need to be fun and escape, not investment stress, if i want stress i have the stock market.
posted by blink_left at 9:55 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by blink_left at 9:55 AM on May 2, 2006
The Seed article from Freen is interesting (cf. Postman) and intentionally cute, but flawed in a number of ways. "With the invention of the printing press, people read more and have fewer kids," he says, but frankly the decline in birthrates took place hundreds of years later and has much greater correlation with industrialized economics than our propensity to seek out entertainment. It's also ridiculous to assign all technology patents to the category of "virtual entertainment" -- I wasn't aware that IBM, for example, was in the games business. Most of their patents probably concern dull-as-old-nails corporate database infrastructure. Some of that technology will likely be directly useful should we reach the point of moving out into space -- and it's critical to note that the space race sparked a number of technological innovations itself.
posted by dhartung at 9:59 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by dhartung at 9:59 AM on May 2, 2006
That article deserves its own FPP, I think. But my mefi-karma points are too low to risk it myself.
posted by Drexen at 10:05 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by Drexen at 10:05 AM on May 2, 2006
For instance Jon Jacobs, known online as Neverdie, a 39-year-old Entropia player in Miami Beach, last year sold almost everything he owned (real and virtual) to scratch together $100,000 (1 million P.E.D.'s) to buy a huge space station in the game.
As established in the previous thread, Jon Jacobs, who plays the character Neverdie mentioned in the articles, is a marketer for the company that makes the game. He's obviously still very successful at it.
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:12 AM on May 2, 2006
As established in the previous thread, Jon Jacobs, who plays the character Neverdie mentioned in the articles, is a marketer for the company that makes the game. He's obviously still very successful at it.
posted by thirteenkiller at 10:12 AM on May 2, 2006
Fascinating Seed article. Thanks so much for sharing and, by extension, turning me on to what looks like a great site. That said, I don't quite buy the argument. For while interest in video games is certainly on the rise (I'm a little worried about Lieutenant Barkley style holodeck addiction myself) so too are biological imperatives. While modernity has given rise to fast food and pornography, it's also fostered elliptical machines, treadmills and a renewed interest in organic foods.
I suppose one could argue that this is the same sort of narcissism, but I think there's a fundamental distinction.
As for exploration, the moon missions are still in our fairly recent past. Should we visit again (which seems likely) or perhaps initiate a mission to Mars, it will capture the attention of young people and draw them away, for a time at least, from their computer screens.
About Entropia: Is there such a thing as virtual property insurance? What happens if a real world natural disaster destroys the servers on which that fictional universe resides? No matter how much we might like to crawl into our own brain stems, the natural world has a way of asserting itself. That, I think, is what will keep us from the dystopia envisioned by Miller, even if nothing else does.
posted by aladfar at 10:36 AM on May 2, 2006
I suppose one could argue that this is the same sort of narcissism, but I think there's a fundamental distinction.
As for exploration, the moon missions are still in our fairly recent past. Should we visit again (which seems likely) or perhaps initiate a mission to Mars, it will capture the attention of young people and draw them away, for a time at least, from their computer screens.
About Entropia: Is there such a thing as virtual property insurance? What happens if a real world natural disaster destroys the servers on which that fictional universe resides? No matter how much we might like to crawl into our own brain stems, the natural world has a way of asserting itself. That, I think, is what will keep us from the dystopia envisioned by Miller, even if nothing else does.
posted by aladfar at 10:36 AM on May 2, 2006
thank god i got all this shit out of my system with circlemud.
thats all i have to say.
posted by phaedon at 10:53 AM on May 2, 2006
thats all i have to say.
posted by phaedon at 10:53 AM on May 2, 2006
What happens if a real world natural disaster destroys the servers on which that fictional universe resides?
Assuming the company is competent at all they have some form of offsite backups, in which case it's a matter of the clock having turned back in the game at most 24 hours. Anything that takes out both the servers AND offsite backups is liable to have wiped out most of the playerbase/planet in the process in which case there are much bigger concerns.
posted by Ryvar at 10:58 AM on May 2, 2006
Assuming the company is competent at all they have some form of offsite backups, in which case it's a matter of the clock having turned back in the game at most 24 hours. Anything that takes out both the servers AND offsite backups is liable to have wiped out most of the playerbase/planet in the process in which case there are much bigger concerns.
posted by Ryvar at 10:58 AM on May 2, 2006
Forget the natural disaster, what happens when AT&T charges us by the packet? These things use MASSIVE bandwidth even for the client >800kps recommended.
posted by mouthnoize at 11:04 AM on May 2, 2006
posted by mouthnoize at 11:04 AM on May 2, 2006
Wow, if only Entropia wasn't a fiendishly ugly, frustrating to play, money pit. Then this might actually have some use.
blink_left hit the nail on the head. EVERYTHING in this game wears out (quickly) or is used up (even quicker) and costs real $$$$ to repair or restore. The investment overhead just to get to the point where you could actually make money on the game is absurd.
posted by davros42 at 11:09 AM on May 2, 2006
blink_left hit the nail on the head. EVERYTHING in this game wears out (quickly) or is used up (even quicker) and costs real $$$$ to repair or restore. The investment overhead just to get to the point where you could actually make money on the game is absurd.
posted by davros42 at 11:09 AM on May 2, 2006
Condensed version of the Seed article: "I'm an old guy. I don't like new stuff."
He also forgets that the entertainment industry is driving funds into research that can and will benefit the human race, as well as helping provide the tools for others to do even more for the human race.
As an example, I know a talented researcher who uses complex mathemathical modelling to predict how environmental changes impact wildlife.
What does he use for these computationally intensive algorithms?
Relatively inexpensive, out-of-the-box games graphics cards.
Whether escapism provided by virtual worlds sap our desire to explore this one is another matter, but I don't think EverCrack is going to stop the next Aldrin or Armstrong any more than Bridge or Blackjack would have.
posted by spazzm at 11:48 AM on May 2, 2006
He also forgets that the entertainment industry is driving funds into research that can and will benefit the human race, as well as helping provide the tools for others to do even more for the human race.
As an example, I know a talented researcher who uses complex mathemathical modelling to predict how environmental changes impact wildlife.
What does he use for these computationally intensive algorithms?
Relatively inexpensive, out-of-the-box games graphics cards.
Whether escapism provided by virtual worlds sap our desire to explore this one is another matter, but I don't think EverCrack is going to stop the next Aldrin or Armstrong any more than Bridge or Blackjack would have.
posted by spazzm at 11:48 AM on May 2, 2006
davros42, that sounds a lot like the definition of pyramid schemes.
Freen, excellent article, thanks.
posted by Laotic at 12:20 PM on May 2, 2006
Freen, excellent article, thanks.
posted by Laotic at 12:20 PM on May 2, 2006
Laotic : "davros42, that sounds a lot like the definition of pyramid schemes."
How so?
posted by Bugbread at 1:10 PM on May 2, 2006
How so?
posted by Bugbread at 1:10 PM on May 2, 2006
I waver between hard core, SL3 style, trans-humanist singularitarian, and a radical, meatspace loving evangelical luddite.
Things like this, games and porn, are probably going to be the way that things get rolling. But, frankly, I am concerned we will amuse ourselves to death.
On preview:
Extropia sounds like pyramid scheme because, if davros42 is correct, as a new user, most of your money goes to line the pockets of older users. So, the first users in take the most money out, while last users in put the most money in. You have to pay alot of money to begin to make money, and then, you are making money off of new, inexperienced users.
Sounds alot like wall street, really.
posted by Freen at 1:44 PM on May 2, 2006
Things like this, games and porn, are probably going to be the way that things get rolling. But, frankly, I am concerned we will amuse ourselves to death.
On preview:
Extropia sounds like pyramid scheme because, if davros42 is correct, as a new user, most of your money goes to line the pockets of older users. So, the first users in take the most money out, while last users in put the most money in. You have to pay alot of money to begin to make money, and then, you are making money off of new, inexperienced users.
Sounds alot like wall street, really.
posted by Freen at 1:44 PM on May 2, 2006
Unlike other MMO games where you pay a monthly fee. The majority of that funding went to provide quests and higher-level features that aren't accessible to newbies, too.
This is just a different revenue model.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:50 PM on May 2, 2006
This is just a different revenue model.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:50 PM on May 2, 2006
I dunno, it sounds to me an entrepreneurial start. You pay money to equipment vendors (who were once entrepreneurs themselves) to get the facilities for your startup, then once you start making product, you sell it to those vendors and also to new entrepreneurs. I guess if the money always went up, it would sound like a pyramid, but I'm assuming that once you've got some money and money making capacity, money goes sideways, and when you're even higher up, may go down (not to the new entrepreneurs without product, but middle wealth folks who make something different than you). I may be reading a bit too much into this, though.
posted by Bugbread at 2:19 PM on May 2, 2006
posted by Bugbread at 2:19 PM on May 2, 2006
phaedon thank god i got all this shit out of my system with circlemud. thats all i have to say.
I think you've found the countermeasure there. Eventually everything gets boring. There is a drive for fitness indicators, and there is also a drive for novelty (ie, to find new fitness indicators).
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:08 PM on May 2, 2006
I think you've found the countermeasure there. Eventually everything gets boring. There is a drive for fitness indicators, and there is also a drive for novelty (ie, to find new fitness indicators).
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:08 PM on May 2, 2006
sonofsamiam Unlike other MMO games where you pay a monthly fee. The majority of that funding went to provide quests and higher-level features that aren't accessible to newbies, too.
A player isn't expected to remain a newbie for long though. In World of Warcraft, the level cap of 60 is usually reached by a fairly industrious new player in three to six months. Over the course of levelling up, that player will have learned to use their character's abilities, of which they now have the full set.
Beyond 60, progression comes from gear, which is almost exclusively gained from "raiding", which is repeatedly going through the same series of fights with groups of 20 to 40 other players. It could take years of doing this (unless one is able to raid during the week) to gain the maximum gear available in the game. Of course in the intervening time, new gear will become available, the player might change their preferred playstyle enough to want new gear, probably will want a range of gear that suits different types of activities, and so on.
There's plenty to keep a person busy, pretty much indefinitely. The game, like Tetris, continues until the player is bored with it. It has no natural end of its own.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:25 PM on May 2, 2006
A player isn't expected to remain a newbie for long though. In World of Warcraft, the level cap of 60 is usually reached by a fairly industrious new player in three to six months. Over the course of levelling up, that player will have learned to use their character's abilities, of which they now have the full set.
Beyond 60, progression comes from gear, which is almost exclusively gained from "raiding", which is repeatedly going through the same series of fights with groups of 20 to 40 other players. It could take years of doing this (unless one is able to raid during the week) to gain the maximum gear available in the game. Of course in the intervening time, new gear will become available, the player might change their preferred playstyle enough to want new gear, probably will want a range of gear that suits different types of activities, and so on.
There's plenty to keep a person busy, pretty much indefinitely. The game, like Tetris, continues until the player is bored with it. It has no natural end of its own.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:25 PM on May 2, 2006
YoHoHo Puzzle Pirates also features a currency buy-in as an alternative--though they aren't up to a debit card. As usual, the media's anti-pirate bias skims over the real innovators in our society.
More importantly, the Project Entropia conditions of use do not really set up an entrepreneurial virtual world. If they were serious about encouraging business, they would adopt measures that protect the interests of investors--in this case, virtual property.
Instead, their agreement dictates thus:
"As part of your interactions with the System, you may acquire, create, design, or modify Virtual items, but you agree that you will not gain any ownership interest whatsoever in any Virtual item, and you hereby assign to MindArk all of your rights, title and interest in any such Virtual item."
Even when they are integrating dollars into their world, they don't want to admit that significant economic activity is taking place. Does this market select only those who are too ignorant to care? Or maybe they don't mind the risk that Entropia will misuse their god power to take away their hard-earned dollars/PEDs.
posted by anotherbrick at 6:09 PM on May 2, 2006
More importantly, the Project Entropia conditions of use do not really set up an entrepreneurial virtual world. If they were serious about encouraging business, they would adopt measures that protect the interests of investors--in this case, virtual property.
Instead, their agreement dictates thus:
"As part of your interactions with the System, you may acquire, create, design, or modify Virtual items, but you agree that you will not gain any ownership interest whatsoever in any Virtual item, and you hereby assign to MindArk all of your rights, title and interest in any such Virtual item."
Even when they are integrating dollars into their world, they don't want to admit that significant economic activity is taking place. Does this market select only those who are too ignorant to care? Or maybe they don't mind the risk that Entropia will misuse their god power to take away their hard-earned dollars/PEDs.
posted by anotherbrick at 6:09 PM on May 2, 2006
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posted by blacklite at 7:46 AM on May 2, 2006