My parents are DEEEAAAD!
October 9, 2006 7:59 AM Subscribe
My parents are dead! Scott Kurtz of PvP brings us "a sprawling epic that examines the deep inner psyche of Batman." In six pages. No apologies to Frank Miller.
Note: this was done for 24 Hour Comics Day (although he didn't stay up the full 24 hours, the pansy! :))
Also, I didn't realize it was 6 pages all on that one page. I was expecting a "next page" link. :)
posted by antifuse at 8:21 AM on October 9, 2006
Also, I didn't realize it was 6 pages all on that one page. I was expecting a "next page" link. :)
posted by antifuse at 8:21 AM on October 9, 2006
Batman kills people? In the versions I saw, he never seemed to deliberately kill anyone, just round them up for police.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:32 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by jacquilynne at 8:32 AM on October 9, 2006
This looks like a bit of a homage to the classic "you'll stay scared, won't cha punk?" scene in Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns".
posted by PenDevil at 8:41 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by PenDevil at 8:41 AM on October 9, 2006
Batman kills people?
In Frank Miller's world, yes. Otherwise, he's got a pretty well-known policy of no guns and no killing.
posted by camcgee at 8:41 AM on October 9, 2006
In Frank Miller's world, yes. Otherwise, he's got a pretty well-known policy of no guns and no killing.
posted by camcgee at 8:41 AM on October 9, 2006
It depends on the writer. Batman used to be the hokey, silly "Old Chum" tv show character... and then Frank Miller got a hold of him.
Since then, many writers have found that making him dark, brooding and menacing makes for a much better story. Kurtz is just taking that to it's comical limit with this. Well done.
posted by splatta at 8:42 AM on October 9, 2006
Since then, many writers have found that making him dark, brooding and menacing makes for a much better story. Kurtz is just taking that to it's comical limit with this. Well done.
posted by splatta at 8:42 AM on October 9, 2006
Note: this was done for 24 Hour Comics Day
I thought those were supposed to be 24 pages.
posted by camcgee at 8:43 AM on October 9, 2006
I thought those were supposed to be 24 pages.
posted by camcgee at 8:43 AM on October 9, 2006
I thought those were supposed to be 24 pages.
Scott stated that staying up for 24 hours drawing comics was not fun, and swore to never do it again. I'm just glad he put forth the effort, this is good.
posted by splatta at 8:46 AM on October 9, 2006
Scott stated that staying up for 24 hours drawing comics was not fun, and swore to never do it again. I'm just glad he put forth the effort, this is good.
posted by splatta at 8:46 AM on October 9, 2006
I eagerly await his follow-up opus: Uncle Ben is DEEEAAAD - and I'm a pimply whiner!!
posted by yhbc at 8:50 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by yhbc at 8:50 AM on October 9, 2006
From my understanding, it was the fact that he suffered so much pain due to the fact that his parents had been killed that he vowed never to do the same to anyone. To say otherwise just tarnishes everything Batman stands for, which is namely, justice.
posted by banished at 8:56 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by banished at 8:56 AM on October 9, 2006
hee hee... very funny.
I'm no expert on comics, but I think Miller started the whole "guy who dresses up as a giant bat every night = more than a little unhinged" meme, which has made for much more interesting stories about Mr. Wayne in the last 20 years. The "Batman Begins" movie is ample evidence of this richness.
But hey, no need to get too analytical - this comic is just plain funny.
posted by Cranialtorque at 9:03 AM on October 9, 2006
I'm no expert on comics, but I think Miller started the whole "guy who dresses up as a giant bat every night = more than a little unhinged" meme, which has made for much more interesting stories about Mr. Wayne in the last 20 years. The "Batman Begins" movie is ample evidence of this richness.
But hey, no need to get too analytical - this comic is just plain funny.
posted by Cranialtorque at 9:03 AM on October 9, 2006
Batman used to be the hokey, silly "Old Chum" tv show character... and then Frank Miller got a hold of him.
No, he was hokey in the sixties. In the forties, he had guns and killed people:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/08/06/1037/
http://sacomics.blogspot.com/2005/08/batman-and-guns.html
posted by martinrebas at 9:15 AM on October 9, 2006
No, he was hokey in the sixties. In the forties, he had guns and killed people:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2006/08/06/1037/
http://sacomics.blogspot.com/2005/08/batman-and-guns.html
posted by martinrebas at 9:15 AM on October 9, 2006
When people defend stealing music, they insist that if you look just beyond the horizon of MTV and the RIAA, you'll find hundreds of thousands of talented bands being oppressed by the oligarchy. It's among the most enduring myths of art — that somewhere, genius is going unrecognized — and the computer age has brought new hope to believers that their faith will be proved, that new opportunities will allow this imaginary cream to rise.
I think Web comics are possibly the best example to debunk this myth: No, there are not thousands of brilliant writers and artists being crushed out of the marketplace by Marvel and DC and the evil newspaper syndicates. And as if the substandard quality of Web comics wasn't enough to prove the point, Scott Kurtz decided to protest restrictive contracts by offering his comic, free, to any newspaper that asked — but nobody did.
posted by cribcage at 9:19 AM on October 9, 2006
I think Web comics are possibly the best example to debunk this myth: No, there are not thousands of brilliant writers and artists being crushed out of the marketplace by Marvel and DC and the evil newspaper syndicates. And as if the substandard quality of Web comics wasn't enough to prove the point, Scott Kurtz decided to protest restrictive contracts by offering his comic, free, to any newspaper that asked — but nobody did.
posted by cribcage at 9:19 AM on October 9, 2006
Frank Miller's Batman doesn't kill people. Sheesh. That's like the whole plot of the third section of Dark Night Returns. He refuses to kill the Joker and gets all angsty with guilt over all the people Joker kills, but at the end, Batman still stops short of killing the Joker.
That's also the whole point of the line Scott mangles, "There are 7 ways to take out a man from this position. Three disarm with minimal contact, three are fatal, and one...HURTS!" Point being, he doesn't use the fatal ones.
Martinrebas is right. Frank Miller's Batman is a bleeding-heart liberal compared to the Batman of the 40s.
posted by straight at 9:24 AM on October 9, 2006
That's also the whole point of the line Scott mangles, "There are 7 ways to take out a man from this position. Three disarm with minimal contact, three are fatal, and one...HURTS!" Point being, he doesn't use the fatal ones.
Martinrebas is right. Frank Miller's Batman is a bleeding-heart liberal compared to the Batman of the 40s.
posted by straight at 9:24 AM on October 9, 2006
And as if the substandard quality of Web comics wasn't enough to prove the point, Scott Kurtz decided to protest restrictive contracts by offering his comic, free, to any newspaper that asked — but nobody did.
Yeah. Rejection by the newspapers totally proves that Kurtz's comic can't approach the high standards set by Dennis the Menace, Garfield, and Ziggy. Will there *ever* be a web comic that's as hilarious as Ziggy? No. Of course not.
posted by straight at 9:29 AM on October 9, 2006 [3 favorites]
Yeah. Rejection by the newspapers totally proves that Kurtz's comic can't approach the high standards set by Dennis the Menace, Garfield, and Ziggy. Will there *ever* be a web comic that's as hilarious as Ziggy? No. Of course not.
posted by straight at 9:29 AM on October 9, 2006 [3 favorites]
And as if the substandard quality of Web comics wasn't enough to prove the point, Scott Kurtz decided to protest restrictive contracts by offering his comic, free, to any newspaper that asked — but nobody did.
You must be joking.
posted by empath at 9:36 AM on October 9, 2006
You must be joking.
posted by empath at 9:36 AM on October 9, 2006
I'm not even a fan of webcomics and I could probably think of 10 web-comics better than anything in a daily newspaper without breaking a sweat.
posted by empath at 9:39 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by empath at 9:39 AM on October 9, 2006
I thought we were not allowed to call them "comics" any longer. It's a "graphic novel".
posted by xmutex at 9:45 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by xmutex at 9:45 AM on October 9, 2006
I'd say that the internet brought the newspaper-style comic strip back to life, cribcage. Gary Larson really should've been born 20 years later.
Of course, most of these cartoonists are terrible, but at least they're not nearly as vapid as your average newspaper fare.
posted by Zero Gravitas at 9:49 AM on October 9, 2006
Of course, most of these cartoonists are terrible, but at least they're not nearly as vapid as your average newspaper fare.
posted by Zero Gravitas at 9:49 AM on October 9, 2006
cribcage : "It's among the most enduring myths of art — that somewhere, genius is going unrecognized — and the computer age has brought new hope to believers that their faith will be proved, that new opportunities will allow this imaginary cream to rise."
It's not a myth, it's just a misinterpretation. That is, people think that there is undiscovered genius due to The Man, and that if you take The Man out of the equation, there will be tons of discovered talent. No, there's undiscovered genius due to the fact that there are just so many goddamned people making art. Remove The Man, and now you have even more to sift through, with the end result that: somewhere, genius is going unrecognized.
posted by Bugbread at 9:52 AM on October 9, 2006 [1 favorite]
It's not a myth, it's just a misinterpretation. That is, people think that there is undiscovered genius due to The Man, and that if you take The Man out of the equation, there will be tons of discovered talent. No, there's undiscovered genius due to the fact that there are just so many goddamned people making art. Remove The Man, and now you have even more to sift through, with the end result that: somewhere, genius is going unrecognized.
posted by Bugbread at 9:52 AM on October 9, 2006 [1 favorite]
Cranialtorque, the first instance of that notion that I saw was an interview with Denny O'Neill in 1984. He also thought of Batman as a virgin, sublimating sexual desire by being a badass.
posted by kimota at 9:54 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by kimota at 9:54 AM on October 9, 2006
What straight said.
Also, you forgotPoland The Kansas City Star.
posted by danb at 9:55 AM on October 9, 2006
Also, you forgot
posted by danb at 9:55 AM on October 9, 2006
xmutex : "I thought we were not allowed to call them 'comics' any longer. It's a 'graphic novel'."
Different things. The definition is fuzzy as all good getout, but some clear requirements for a graphic novel are: they've got to be quite a bit longer than the standard comic book (the weekly/monthly 22 page comics are far too short to qualify), and they have to have a defined start, middle, and end. Sure, you get fuzziness where, for example, a mini-series is gathered into a single book (it is now long enough, and has a start, middle, and end, so did rebinding make it a graphic novel?), but a regular, ongoing, non-miniseries, short weekly/monthly isn't a graphic novel.
It's like the difference between a short movie and a feature-length movie: the dividing line is hard to draw. However, nobody would say that the Simpsons TV show is a movie. The line may be fuzzy, but a regular TV series is nowhere close to that line.
posted by Bugbread at 10:00 AM on October 9, 2006
Different things. The definition is fuzzy as all good getout, but some clear requirements for a graphic novel are: they've got to be quite a bit longer than the standard comic book (the weekly/monthly 22 page comics are far too short to qualify), and they have to have a defined start, middle, and end. Sure, you get fuzziness where, for example, a mini-series is gathered into a single book (it is now long enough, and has a start, middle, and end, so did rebinding make it a graphic novel?), but a regular, ongoing, non-miniseries, short weekly/monthly isn't a graphic novel.
It's like the difference between a short movie and a feature-length movie: the dividing line is hard to draw. However, nobody would say that the Simpsons TV show is a movie. The line may be fuzzy, but a regular TV series is nowhere close to that line.
posted by Bugbread at 10:00 AM on October 9, 2006
xmutex:
IMO, calling something 'comics' is the equivilent of calling something Poetry, Prose, Film, Music, Painting.
'Comics' is the medium-- or Sequential Art, to use another term-- a narrative told through a sequence of panels of art (with words or without).
Manga, Comic Strip, Graphic Novel, Comic Book, etc, are just different forms that 'comics' can take, equivilent to the 12inch vinyl single, the full-length CD, etc in music...
posted by empath at 10:03 AM on October 9, 2006
IMO, calling something 'comics' is the equivilent of calling something Poetry, Prose, Film, Music, Painting.
'Comics' is the medium-- or Sequential Art, to use another term-- a narrative told through a sequence of panels of art (with words or without).
Manga, Comic Strip, Graphic Novel, Comic Book, etc, are just different forms that 'comics' can take, equivilent to the 12inch vinyl single, the full-length CD, etc in music...
posted by empath at 10:03 AM on October 9, 2006
No, there's undiscovered genius due to the fact that there are just so many goddamned people making art. Remove The Man, and now you have even more to sift through, with the end result that: somewhere, genius is going unrecognized.
posted by bugbread at 11:52 AM CST on October 9 [+] [!]
This is precisely correct.
All the web has done is allowed a flood of untalented hacks to promote their work. Which in and of itself is noble, and I applaud it.
However, it just makes the haystack that much larger to find a needle in.
Also, the reason Scott's work wouldn't be picked up by a paper is because the demographic it is targeted to would simply view it online.
Webcomics are fundamentally different from newsies. And not just in the method of delivery.
For instance, Penny Arcade is a fantastic webcomic by most any standards. Its success is stunning, and yet it could never, ever be put forth in a newspaper. It simply wouldn't work. See, the comic is really only 1/2 of the content... the webpost that goes along with it is the rest.
Regarding Batman... I much prefer dark brooding borderline sick bastard Batman. My personal interpretation of him places him not very far from the mental state of the Joker, just on the other side of the law.
posted by Ynoxas at 10:08 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by bugbread at 11:52 AM CST on October 9 [+] [!]
This is precisely correct.
All the web has done is allowed a flood of untalented hacks to promote their work. Which in and of itself is noble, and I applaud it.
However, it just makes the haystack that much larger to find a needle in.
Also, the reason Scott's work wouldn't be picked up by a paper is because the demographic it is targeted to would simply view it online.
Webcomics are fundamentally different from newsies. And not just in the method of delivery.
For instance, Penny Arcade is a fantastic webcomic by most any standards. Its success is stunning, and yet it could never, ever be put forth in a newspaper. It simply wouldn't work. See, the comic is really only 1/2 of the content... the webpost that goes along with it is the rest.
Regarding Batman... I much prefer dark brooding borderline sick bastard Batman. My personal interpretation of him places him not very far from the mental state of the Joker, just on the other side of the law.
posted by Ynoxas at 10:08 AM on October 9, 2006
Scott Kurtz decided to protest restrictive contracts by offering his comic, free, to any newspaper that asked — but nobody did.
According to this Marketplace story, "two newspapers and a magazine have picked PvP up." It then quotes RC Harvey on syndicates having made themselves indispensable to newspapers as the reason the newspapers are hesitating. There are other components to it as well, I'm sure, among them the fact that newspapers are notoriously resistant to change in their business models - even a no-brainer like Kurtz's offer. But "there are no brilliant unsyndicated web comics" almost certainly isn't a factor. And, to clarify, the "restrictive contracts" issue is about merch rights, where the real money is for syndicates:
This last year, I was contacted by Universal Press Syndicates about PvP. They know the strip and were very interested in syndicating it as a feature. I would love to see PvP in newspapers and we started talks. I let them know that there were six years of archives available and that I could edit the strips to conform to family paper editorial standards. The only thing I could not do was give up my ownership and rights to my creation.
Under no circumstances would I relinquish my copyright, book deals, merchandise deals, rights to market my strips, etc. If they wanted PvP, we would agree to a newspaper distribution deal and that was it. After six weeks the syndicates returned with their answer: They wanted PvP...all of it. If they could not have the rights to the feature, they weren't interested. So we parted ways.
I think Kurtz' daily strip is great - better paced, more fun and with storylines at least as interesting as anything in my local paper.
posted by mediareport at 10:26 AM on October 9, 2006
According to this Marketplace story, "two newspapers and a magazine have picked PvP up." It then quotes RC Harvey on syndicates having made themselves indispensable to newspapers as the reason the newspapers are hesitating. There are other components to it as well, I'm sure, among them the fact that newspapers are notoriously resistant to change in their business models - even a no-brainer like Kurtz's offer. But "there are no brilliant unsyndicated web comics" almost certainly isn't a factor. And, to clarify, the "restrictive contracts" issue is about merch rights, where the real money is for syndicates:
This last year, I was contacted by Universal Press Syndicates about PvP. They know the strip and were very interested in syndicating it as a feature. I would love to see PvP in newspapers and we started talks. I let them know that there were six years of archives available and that I could edit the strips to conform to family paper editorial standards. The only thing I could not do was give up my ownership and rights to my creation.
Under no circumstances would I relinquish my copyright, book deals, merchandise deals, rights to market my strips, etc. If they wanted PvP, we would agree to a newspaper distribution deal and that was it. After six weeks the syndicates returned with their answer: They wanted PvP...all of it. If they could not have the rights to the feature, they weren't interested. So we parted ways.
I think Kurtz' daily strip is great - better paced, more fun and with storylines at least as interesting as anything in my local paper.
posted by mediareport at 10:26 AM on October 9, 2006
Oh, and by the way, before the merch issues killed the deal, here's what Universal Press Syndicate was saying about Kurtz:
"Univeral Press Syndicate is always on the look for bright new talent and strips that will speak to a younger audience" says the senior director of acquisitions for Universal Press. "PvP represents the best of what the web has to offer from the next generation of American comic strip artists. We haven't been this excited about a new strip since Calvin and Hobbes."
Kurtz' slow start in breaking into newspapers without a syndicate deal is not a quality issue, cribcage. It's a money and politics issue.
posted by mediareport at 10:31 AM on October 9, 2006
"Univeral Press Syndicate is always on the look for bright new talent and strips that will speak to a younger audience" says the senior director of acquisitions for Universal Press. "PvP represents the best of what the web has to offer from the next generation of American comic strip artists. We haven't been this excited about a new strip since Calvin and Hobbes."
Kurtz' slow start in breaking into newspapers without a syndicate deal is not a quality issue, cribcage. It's a money and politics issue.
posted by mediareport at 10:31 AM on October 9, 2006
even the batman of the 40's was tame compared to the original comics where he actually killed/maimed criminals.
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:42 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:42 AM on October 9, 2006
And as if the substandard quality of Web comics wasn't enough to prove the point, Scott Kurtz decided to protest restrictive contracts by offering his comic, free, to any newspaper that asked — but nobody did.
I don't quite follow your argument. If PVP was of such poor quality, then why was Kurtz offered a paying United Syndicate contract in the first place?
Kurtz turned down that deal because he wanted to keep PVP's intellectual property and merchandising rights—one of the provisos of the open offer you mentioned was that Kurtz would retain all those rights. Sure, the newspapers might have turned down the free deal because they didn't find the strip funny enough, but it's just as likely that they didn't want to hurt relations with the syndicates by letting in a disruptive freelancer, or that they were nervous running a niche comic without the backing of a syndicate.
That was about a year ago, I think. Just last week, R. Stevens' Diesel Sweeties announced a deal with United that allows Stevens to keep all those rights that Kurtz held out for. Not only has the Internet incubated talent, it seems, but that talent can be worth an unprecedentedly generous contract.
posted by Iridic at 10:53 AM on October 9, 2006
I don't quite follow your argument. If PVP was of such poor quality, then why was Kurtz offered a paying United Syndicate contract in the first place?
Kurtz turned down that deal because he wanted to keep PVP's intellectual property and merchandising rights—one of the provisos of the open offer you mentioned was that Kurtz would retain all those rights. Sure, the newspapers might have turned down the free deal because they didn't find the strip funny enough, but it's just as likely that they didn't want to hurt relations with the syndicates by letting in a disruptive freelancer, or that they were nervous running a niche comic without the backing of a syndicate.
That was about a year ago, I think. Just last week, R. Stevens' Diesel Sweeties announced a deal with United that allows Stevens to keep all those rights that Kurtz held out for. Not only has the Internet incubated talent, it seems, but that talent can be worth an unprecedentedly generous contract.
posted by Iridic at 10:53 AM on October 9, 2006
Well, watching your parents being gunned down as a child would be rather traumatic.
I did like the contrast between the Punisher and Batman when they had a cross series. Without his vast wealth, Bruce Wayne might have had some major technical challenges in avoiding killing people. Access to those kinds of resources are a ‘power’ of sorts. The Punisher has told Spiderman for example - he uses guns because “we can’t all throw webs and climb walls.”
On the other hand, Wayne might not have been so insulated by wealth and might have been able to deal with it better.
Still, best line from the Punisher v. Batman series - after the Punisher is prevented from killing the Joker by Batman - “You and that giggling idiot deserve each other.”
posted by Smedleyman at 11:08 AM on October 9, 2006
I did like the contrast between the Punisher and Batman when they had a cross series. Without his vast wealth, Bruce Wayne might have had some major technical challenges in avoiding killing people. Access to those kinds of resources are a ‘power’ of sorts. The Punisher has told Spiderman for example - he uses guns because “we can’t all throw webs and climb walls.”
On the other hand, Wayne might not have been so insulated by wealth and might have been able to deal with it better.
Still, best line from the Punisher v. Batman series - after the Punisher is prevented from killing the Joker by Batman - “You and that giggling idiot deserve each other.”
posted by Smedleyman at 11:08 AM on October 9, 2006
Batman kills people?
In Frank Miller's world, yes.
"Rubber bullets. Honest."
posted by Artw at 11:10 AM on October 9, 2006
In Frank Miller's world, yes.
"Rubber bullets. Honest."
posted by Artw at 11:10 AM on October 9, 2006
Something vaguely turns me off about PvP – a factor people are overlooking in the art-quality conversation here is that different things speak to different readers – but, this here is as good of a goof on Batman comics as I've seen. It really is quite good. And I assure you my standards are fully objective.
posted by furiousthought at 11:12 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by furiousthought at 11:12 AM on October 9, 2006
R. Stevens' Diesel Sweeties announced a deal with United that allows Stevens to keep all those rights that Kurtz held out for.
Wow, that's a great step. Tom Spurgeon pointed out something interesting: Diesel Sweeties is Ted Rall's first pick for United; Rall joined the syndicate this past June. Guess we'll see if having someone on board like Rall - someone who knows new cartoonists and the Web - will help sort through cribcage-like objections.
But damn, Kurtz deserves a syndicate deal now for sure.
posted by mediareport at 11:17 AM on October 9, 2006
Wow, that's a great step. Tom Spurgeon pointed out something interesting: Diesel Sweeties is Ted Rall's first pick for United; Rall joined the syndicate this past June. Guess we'll see if having someone on board like Rall - someone who knows new cartoonists and the Web - will help sort through cribcage-like objections.
But damn, Kurtz deserves a syndicate deal now for sure.
posted by mediareport at 11:17 AM on October 9, 2006
Something vaguely turns me off about PvP
For me, it's the cut-and-paste. Kurtz goes on and on and on about how hard the art is and how much time it takes, but when you boil it down, it's one gag and a bunch of sprites cut and pasted from a folder.
I don't think PvP would sell to the mainstream. Unlike Diesel Sweeties or Rudy Park, it's based around a very narrow niche.
This is not to say that I don't like PvP; I do. The gag is usually funny, and the art gets better every year. But it's not for the masses, and I don't think it's unfair to call Kurtz a lazy artist (although not a lazy businessman).
posted by solid-one-love at 11:27 AM on October 9, 2006
For me, it's the cut-and-paste. Kurtz goes on and on and on about how hard the art is and how much time it takes, but when you boil it down, it's one gag and a bunch of sprites cut and pasted from a folder.
I don't think PvP would sell to the mainstream. Unlike Diesel Sweeties or Rudy Park, it's based around a very narrow niche.
This is not to say that I don't like PvP; I do. The gag is usually funny, and the art gets better every year. But it's not for the masses, and I don't think it's unfair to call Kurtz a lazy artist (although not a lazy businessman).
posted by solid-one-love at 11:27 AM on October 9, 2006
[SELF LINK FILTER]This is my favorite Batman story of the moment.[/SELF LINK FILTER]
posted by beaucoupkevin at 11:30 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by beaucoupkevin at 11:30 AM on October 9, 2006
Programming note: The following is all just one man's opinion, your mileage may vary, there's no accounting for taste, etc etc.
furiousthought: I enjoyed the batman thing much more than the PvP strip. PvP is "good" but not "great". I still read it.
I have a friend who is CRAZY over Order of the Stick. I find it meh but hey different strokes.
But Diesel Sweeties? Jesus, it is bad enough that it DESERVES to be in the paper with Ziggy. I seriously can't see the attraction. Same with Mac Hall which I didn't know had ceased production until I just went to grab the URL. The difference between those two is that one was VERY well done, the other not. The similarity was that I found neither entertaining. *shrug*
Best webcomic of all time? The Parking Lot is Full. And it wasn't even purely a webcomic, so I'm not sure what that says, if anything.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:34 AM on October 9, 2006
furiousthought: I enjoyed the batman thing much more than the PvP strip. PvP is "good" but not "great". I still read it.
I have a friend who is CRAZY over Order of the Stick. I find it meh but hey different strokes.
But Diesel Sweeties? Jesus, it is bad enough that it DESERVES to be in the paper with Ziggy. I seriously can't see the attraction. Same with Mac Hall which I didn't know had ceased production until I just went to grab the URL. The difference between those two is that one was VERY well done, the other not. The similarity was that I found neither entertaining. *shrug*
Best webcomic of all time? The Parking Lot is Full. And it wasn't even purely a webcomic, so I'm not sure what that says, if anything.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:34 AM on October 9, 2006
Do you guys want to tell Ynoxas that R. Stevens is a MeFite, or shall I?
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:40 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:40 AM on October 9, 2006
"Will there *ever* be a web comic that's as hilarious as Ziggy?"
You're using Ziggy as a bottom rung comic, right? I believe you must be unfamiliar with Fred Basset, comic of comics.
posted by graventy at 11:50 AM on October 9, 2006
You're using Ziggy as a bottom rung comic, right? I believe you must be unfamiliar with Fred Basset, comic of comics.
posted by graventy at 11:50 AM on October 9, 2006
I want that line in all comics. "There is a sickening snap as Garfield's neck breaks under the mighty pressure of Jon's foot." "There is a sickening snap as Funky Winkerbean's neck breaks under the mighty pressure of Cindy's foot." "There is a sickening snap as Barney Google's neck breaks under the mighty pressure of Snuffy Smith's foot."
posted by pracowity at 11:55 AM on October 9, 2006
posted by pracowity at 11:55 AM on October 9, 2006
Ynoxas : "Best webcomic of all time?"
I was thinking "Perry Bible Fellowship", myself.
posted by Bugbread at 12:14 PM on October 9, 2006
I was thinking "Perry Bible Fellowship", myself.
posted by Bugbread at 12:14 PM on October 9, 2006
I believe you must be unfamiliar with Fred Basset, comic of comics.
I'm sorry, we can go lower. Ziggy is, if nothing else, iconic and universal in its simplicity, and yes, Fred Basset sucks, but not worse than Marvin, say.
But... is there any comic such an abject failure as Momma? it's not the comic I love to hate, it's the comic I just hate. It has the most incomptent art I've ever seen in a syndicated strip and the "jokes"... well.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:15 PM on October 9, 2006
I'm sorry, we can go lower. Ziggy is, if nothing else, iconic and universal in its simplicity, and yes, Fred Basset sucks, but not worse than Marvin, say.
But... is there any comic such an abject failure as Momma? it's not the comic I love to hate, it's the comic I just hate. It has the most incomptent art I've ever seen in a syndicated strip and the "jokes"... well.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:15 PM on October 9, 2006
"There is a sickening crunch as Woodstock's skull breaks under the mighty pressure of Peppermint Patty's sandaled foot."
"There is an etherial snap as Billy's neck breaks under the ghostly pressure of Not Me's foot."
"There is a sickening thud as Cathy is buried under the mighty pressure of her entire wardrobe."
Oh, this is funny. I could do this all day.
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:22 PM on October 9, 2006
"There is an etherial snap as Billy's neck breaks under the ghostly pressure of Not Me's foot."
"There is a sickening thud as Cathy is buried under the mighty pressure of her entire wardrobe."
Oh, this is funny. I could do this all day.
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:22 PM on October 9, 2006
To me the worst print comics are the serials. As an experiment, I followed the plot of "Apartment 3B" for an entire summer during college. Over the course of the daily strip throughout the months of June, July and August approximately 36 hours worth of storytime progressed, most of which was taken up with people gossiping about events that had happened long before that June.
"There is a sickening snap as Apartment 3B's neck breaks under the mighty pressure of it readers' boredom."
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:26 PM on October 9, 2006
"There is a sickening snap as Apartment 3B's neck breaks under the mighty pressure of it readers' boredom."
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:26 PM on October 9, 2006
Over the course of the daily strip throughout the months of June, July and August approximately 36 hours worth of storytime progressed, most of which was taken up with people gossiping about events that had happened long before that June.
Sort of like watching YuGiOh or (what's that other one) oh, Dragonball Z: it takes an entire episode for one punch to be thrown.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:27 PM on October 9, 2006
Sort of like watching YuGiOh or (what's that other one) oh, Dragonball Z: it takes an entire episode for one punch to be thrown.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:27 PM on October 9, 2006
"There is a sickening snap as Francis's neck breaks under the mighty pressure of Momma's disapproval."
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:28 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by Cranialtorque at 12:28 PM on October 9, 2006
Do you guys want to tell Ynoxas that R. Stevens is a MeFite, or shall I?
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:40 PM CST on October 9 [+] [!]
Well, as I strongly disclaimed, it is just my opinion. It is doubtful Mr. Stevens would find anything I created entertaining so we're probably even. I also doubt he is very much bothered by my quiet dissention in the dark.
I, of course, don't want to detract from the following he has developed, and there are obviously throngs who disagree with me. I feel that DS is a novel artistic style, but the actual content feels quite lacking.
It's just not my kind of strip. *shrug*
Also, let's remember our Comic Heirarchy, shall we?
Family Circus
Garfield
Cathy
Marmaduke
Ziggy
Nancy
Momma
bugbread: thanks for the point to PBF. I'll check it out.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:48 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:40 PM CST on October 9 [+] [!]
Well, as I strongly disclaimed, it is just my opinion. It is doubtful Mr. Stevens would find anything I created entertaining so we're probably even. I also doubt he is very much bothered by my quiet dissention in the dark.
I, of course, don't want to detract from the following he has developed, and there are obviously throngs who disagree with me. I feel that DS is a novel artistic style, but the actual content feels quite lacking.
It's just not my kind of strip. *shrug*
Also, let's remember our Comic Heirarchy, shall we?
Family Circus
Garfield
Cathy
Marmaduke
Ziggy
Nancy
Momma
bugbread: thanks for the point to PBF. I'll check it out.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:48 PM on October 9, 2006
sonofsamiam : "Sort of like watching YuGiOh or (what's that other one) oh, Dragonball Z: it takes an entire episode for one punch to be thrown."
Except without the excuse! I mean, at least DBZ had a reason to be long and drawn out: it was a cartoon versions of a weekly comic that's only about 15 pages long. If a comic is all fight, you can breeze through it in a few minutes, but if you're making a TV show out of it, you can't say "Well, we'll make this week's episode 5 minutes long". But Apartment 3G's schedule isn't tied to anything by itself.
Of course, logic would dictate that if you're relying on 15 page comics full of fighting, you probably shouldn't make a weekly TV show in the first place, but once that bad decision is made, you're screwed. No such excuse for 3G.
posted by Bugbread at 12:56 PM on October 9, 2006
Except without the excuse! I mean, at least DBZ had a reason to be long and drawn out: it was a cartoon versions of a weekly comic that's only about 15 pages long. If a comic is all fight, you can breeze through it in a few minutes, but if you're making a TV show out of it, you can't say "Well, we'll make this week's episode 5 minutes long". But Apartment 3G's schedule isn't tied to anything by itself.
Of course, logic would dictate that if you're relying on 15 page comics full of fighting, you probably shouldn't make a weekly TV show in the first place, but once that bad decision is made, you're screwed. No such excuse for 3G.
posted by Bugbread at 12:56 PM on October 9, 2006
Dinosaur Comics did the best Batman origin, ever. Ever.
posted by kindle at 1:18 PM on October 9, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by kindle at 1:18 PM on October 9, 2006 [1 favorite]
I'll see your Perry Bible Fellowship and raise you Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal. (Inconsistent and repetitive at worst, a lofty tribute to Western cliches at best).
posted by muddgirl at 1:38 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by muddgirl at 1:38 PM on October 9, 2006
It's among the most enduring myths of art — that somewhere, genius is going unrecognized
which is why, in every generation, there are geniuses that become recognized years after they're gone ... perhaps they were ahead of their time ... perhaps they just didn't get a break ... or perhaps they didn't try hard enough or care enough
whatever you consider the cream of the crop these days, you should be aware that some of those people will be seen as quaint and irrelevant in 100 years ... and others that only a handful of people have ever heard of may be considered to be the best of our time
it's happened before ... and it will happen again
posted by pyramid termite at 1:41 PM on October 9, 2006
which is why, in every generation, there are geniuses that become recognized years after they're gone ... perhaps they were ahead of their time ... perhaps they just didn't get a break ... or perhaps they didn't try hard enough or care enough
whatever you consider the cream of the crop these days, you should be aware that some of those people will be seen as quaint and irrelevant in 100 years ... and others that only a handful of people have ever heard of may be considered to be the best of our time
it's happened before ... and it will happen again
posted by pyramid termite at 1:41 PM on October 9, 2006
I second the votes for PLIF and PBF.
Allow me to add a run-don't-walk recommendation of Tim Kreider's perfectly delicious fountain of bile. Doesn't really qualify as a webcomic, but there are good scans of all of his more recent stuff.
(Some of the kids here may be too young to remember Leisure Town, too. In which case, take a packed lunch; you'll be there for a while.)
posted by dansdata at 1:46 PM on October 9, 2006
Allow me to add a run-don't-walk recommendation of Tim Kreider's perfectly delicious fountain of bile. Doesn't really qualify as a webcomic, but there are good scans of all of his more recent stuff.
(Some of the kids here may be too young to remember Leisure Town, too. In which case, take a packed lunch; you'll be there for a while.)
posted by dansdata at 1:46 PM on October 9, 2006
WHITE NINJA is the best webcomic , scientifically. Measurements were taken and "a control" used.
posted by jcruelty at 1:59 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by jcruelty at 1:59 PM on October 9, 2006
Kurtz usually doesn't do it for me, but this was hilarious.
I see we've got one fan of Dinosaur Comics up there, which I love with every fiber of my being. As long as we're debating the quality of webbernet comics, does anybody else read Scary Go Round or Overcompensating? Also, there is the insanely great A Lesson Is Learned but the Damage is Irreversible, which is rarely updated but always life-altering.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 2:06 PM on October 9, 2006
I see we've got one fan of Dinosaur Comics up there, which I love with every fiber of my being. As long as we're debating the quality of webbernet comics, does anybody else read Scary Go Round or Overcompensating? Also, there is the insanely great A Lesson Is Learned but the Damage is Irreversible, which is rarely updated but always life-altering.
posted by buriednexttoyou at 2:06 PM on October 9, 2006
Oh, Diesel Sweeties does get in some good ones. Obligatory Achewood mention, too.
posted by furiousthought at 2:17 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by furiousthought at 2:17 PM on October 9, 2006
Some of those web comics are pretty damned good. Haven’t seen them before - thanks folks
posted by Smedleyman at 2:38 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by Smedleyman at 2:38 PM on October 9, 2006
That was funny, though I'm not usually a fan of Kurtz's stuff.
I can't believe this thread has gone on so long talking about webcomics and batman parody without mentioning David Willis' Shortpacked and the hilarious Batman parodies that he's done.
As far as Batman in comics, writing the character as darker and darker may have been fine twenty years ago, but recently writers had taken it to the point where the character became an overly paranoid misanthropic dick that really just wasn't fun to read. To their credit the folks at DC realized this and now we have talented writers like Grant Morrison and Paul Dini (who was part of the team who created the fantastic Batman:The Animated Series in the ninties -which IMO is still one of the best, if not the best take on the character ever) working on the character, and both of them have been turning out some great comics so far. I think Batman Begins struck the right balance with the character as well.
posted by kosher_jenny at 2:41 PM on October 9, 2006
I can't believe this thread has gone on so long talking about webcomics and batman parody without mentioning David Willis' Shortpacked and the hilarious Batman parodies that he's done.
As far as Batman in comics, writing the character as darker and darker may have been fine twenty years ago, but recently writers had taken it to the point where the character became an overly paranoid misanthropic dick that really just wasn't fun to read. To their credit the folks at DC realized this and now we have talented writers like Grant Morrison and Paul Dini (who was part of the team who created the fantastic Batman:The Animated Series in the ninties -which IMO is still one of the best, if not the best take on the character ever) working on the character, and both of them have been turning out some great comics so far. I think Batman Begins struck the right balance with the character as well.
posted by kosher_jenny at 2:41 PM on October 9, 2006
and both of them have been turning out some great comics so far.
I'd enjoy Dini's work better if someone would actually edit his writing. This issue's plot centred around a poker player counting cards? Whuh? Last issue Robin deduced the solution by knowing that a pitaya is poisonous? I'd better stop eating them, then. Sloppy, sloppy work. Morrison's brought a lot of fun back, though.
posted by solid-one-love at 2:46 PM on October 9, 2006
I'd enjoy Dini's work better if someone would actually edit his writing. This issue's plot centred around a poker player counting cards? Whuh? Last issue Robin deduced the solution by knowing that a pitaya is poisonous? I'd better stop eating them, then. Sloppy, sloppy work. Morrison's brought a lot of fun back, though.
posted by solid-one-love at 2:46 PM on October 9, 2006
I think Web comics are possibly the best example to debunk this myth: No, there are not thousands of brilliant writers and artists being crushed out of the marketplace by Marvel and DC and the evil newspaper syndicates. And as if the substandard quality of Web comics wasn't enough to prove the point, Scott Kurtz decided to protest restrictive contracts by offering his comic, free, to any newspaper that asked — but nobody did.
Right, a single example from another industry (with a completely different revenue model) can totally debunk a 'myth' about the music industry...
posted by delmoi at 3:20 PM on October 9, 2006
Right, a single example from another industry (with a completely different revenue model) can totally debunk a 'myth' about the music industry...
posted by delmoi at 3:20 PM on October 9, 2006
I read Scary Go Round and Diesel Sweeties, Sinfest, Cat and Girl, Apple Geeks, AlphaShade and Least I Could Do too!!
posted by black8 at 4:00 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by black8 at 4:00 PM on October 9, 2006
Nothing to add really, though I'll second a bunch of these.
I kinda miss Sexy Losers, but I'm also kinda ashamed of that.
Soooooo tight...
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 4:30 PM on October 9, 2006
I kinda miss Sexy Losers, but I'm also kinda ashamed of that.
Soooooo tight...
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 4:30 PM on October 9, 2006
Why are we talking about webcomics? I think we should be talking about how Batman is lame.
posted by koeselitz at 4:33 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by koeselitz at 4:33 PM on October 9, 2006
Dinosaur Comics is my favoritest.
Anyone into xkcd? Eh? Eh?
posted by danb at 5:06 PM on October 9, 2006
Anyone into xkcd? Eh? Eh?
posted by danb at 5:06 PM on October 9, 2006
"I think we should be talking about how Batman is lame."
Totally. He stomps the guts out of all kinds of criminals, but hasn't yet found the guy who killed his parents? Not much of a detective is he?
...Actually I like Batman. Why don't people make more fun of Superman? I mean, Batman is (obviously) motivated at least. What's Kent got invested?
posted by Smedleyman at 5:27 PM on October 9, 2006
Totally. He stomps the guts out of all kinds of criminals, but hasn't yet found the guy who killed his parents? Not much of a detective is he?
...Actually I like Batman. Why don't people make more fun of Superman? I mean, Batman is (obviously) motivated at least. What's Kent got invested?
posted by Smedleyman at 5:27 PM on October 9, 2006
I like Savage Chickens, Natalie Dee, Married to the Sea, and Copper. Leisure Town is legendary.
Get Your War On started out on the Web and is now in Rolling Stone and some weekly papers.
posted by halonine at 5:30 PM on October 9, 2006
Get Your War On started out on the Web and is now in Rolling Stone and some weekly papers.
posted by halonine at 5:30 PM on October 9, 2006
Cat and Girl, bitches. Seriously, I cannot believe it hasn't come up.
posted by cortex at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by cortex at 5:40 PM on October 9, 2006
all hail spacemoose. i'd forgotten all about that. thx!
posted by mrballistic at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by mrballistic at 5:41 PM on October 9, 2006
Oho, this one will go over well in your local family paper.
posted by mediareport at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by mediareport at 6:03 PM on October 9, 2006
I mentioned Cat and Girl, cortex...also you should check out Derek Kim's work at Lowbright
posted by black8 at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by black8 at 6:23 PM on October 9, 2006
Smedleyman, do you even have to ask? Kent as midwestern, American upbringing. What the fuck else do you need?
posted by absalom at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2006
posted by absalom at 6:45 PM on October 9, 2006
He stomps the guts out of all kinds of criminals, but hasn't yet found the guy who killed his parents?
Yeah, he has. He knew, pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths, that it was Joe Chill. Post-Crisis, he didn't know. Post-Infinite Crisis, he knows again.
What's Kent got invested?
A sense of responsibility driven by old-fashioned farm country morals.
posted by solid-one-love at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2006
Yeah, he has. He knew, pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths, that it was Joe Chill. Post-Crisis, he didn't know. Post-Infinite Crisis, he knows again.
What's Kent got invested?
A sense of responsibility driven by old-fashioned farm country morals.
posted by solid-one-love at 6:47 PM on October 9, 2006
Kurtz's take on Batman was a tad predictable, but good.
Is it uncool to admit to being an Ozy and Millie fan?
posted by brett at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2006
Is it uncool to admit to being an Ozy and Millie fan?
posted by brett at 7:03 PM on October 9, 2006
"Kent as midwestern, American upbringing. What the fuck else do you need?"
Well, I was raised in the midwest. With an American upbringing. And I'm pretty formidable...
...My God! *moment of revelation* I'll fight crime!
posted by Smedleyman at 7:20 PM on October 9, 2006
Well, I was raised in the midwest. With an American upbringing. And I'm pretty formidable...
...My God! *moment of revelation* I'll fight crime!
posted by Smedleyman at 7:20 PM on October 9, 2006
Dumb comic. Dumb discussion.
That's what you have to offer?
Dumb member.
posted by mediareport at 7:20 PM on October 9, 2006 [1 favorite]
That's what you have to offer?
Dumb member.
posted by mediareport at 7:20 PM on October 9, 2006 [1 favorite]
cribcage: When people defend stealing music, they insist that if you look just beyond the horizon of MTV and the RIAA, you'll find hundreds of thousands of talented bands being oppressed by the oligarchy.
Well, I don't know about "oppressed" but very little of the music I've found that turns me on over the last five years has gotten MTV or radio play. Especially if your tastes run a bit off the beaten path towards world music, rockabilly, alt. country or classical music beyond the same 20 dead white guys. The same goes for comic strips.
Ynoxas: However, it just makes the haystack that much larger to find a needle in.
I don't think the haystack really is that much larger. Believe it or not, people did publish comics before the Internet, without national syndication. The Internet just makes it easier, for me located in the midwest United States to read a quirky British series which would probably only be gracing the local alternative newspapers.
At any rate, it seems to be working well enough that the dedicated and talented can economically justify spending hours a week entertaining us. And isn't that what really matters?
Cranialtorque: Over the course of the daily strip throughout the months of June, July and August approximately 36 hours worth of storytime progressed, most of which was taken up with people gossiping about events that had happened long before that June.
I owe a great debt to the Comics Curmdugeon for showing me how those strips should be read. Think of it as a comic version of an E. M. Forster novel done as a BBC miniseries. All of the characters are seething with repressed sexual desire and attraction that is only hinted at by their unnatural proximity, quirky body language, and repeating and stilted conversation.
Or for that matter, you should just check out a great video of Mary Worth performed by live actors using the same static body language as the strip.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:07 PM on October 9, 2006
Well, I don't know about "oppressed" but very little of the music I've found that turns me on over the last five years has gotten MTV or radio play. Especially if your tastes run a bit off the beaten path towards world music, rockabilly, alt. country or classical music beyond the same 20 dead white guys. The same goes for comic strips.
Ynoxas: However, it just makes the haystack that much larger to find a needle in.
I don't think the haystack really is that much larger. Believe it or not, people did publish comics before the Internet, without national syndication. The Internet just makes it easier, for me located in the midwest United States to read a quirky British series which would probably only be gracing the local alternative newspapers.
At any rate, it seems to be working well enough that the dedicated and talented can economically justify spending hours a week entertaining us. And isn't that what really matters?
Cranialtorque: Over the course of the daily strip throughout the months of June, July and August approximately 36 hours worth of storytime progressed, most of which was taken up with people gossiping about events that had happened long before that June.
I owe a great debt to the Comics Curmdugeon for showing me how those strips should be read. Think of it as a comic version of an E. M. Forster novel done as a BBC miniseries. All of the characters are seething with repressed sexual desire and attraction that is only hinted at by their unnatural proximity, quirky body language, and repeating and stilted conversation.
Or for that matter, you should just check out a great video of Mary Worth performed by live actors using the same static body language as the strip.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:07 PM on October 9, 2006
XKCD is easily my favorite comic right now. The day I realized there were ALT tags on every single comic (mouseover the comic and wait) I went through the archives all over again.
Not nearly enough people know about Fried Society.
posted by effugas at 12:35 AM on October 10, 2006
Not nearly enough people know about Fried Society.
posted by effugas at 12:35 AM on October 10, 2006
XKCD is pretty nifty... I read it for a while, then got bored (back in the boy in the barrel days). But now I'm back and loving it! And this thread has reminded me to re-check Overcompensating... apparently his RSS feed is busted. Dang! I've got like 2 and a half weeks of stuff to catch up on!
posted by antifuse at 4:01 AM on October 10, 2006
posted by antifuse at 4:01 AM on October 10, 2006
Oh, and Simulated Comic Product is one of the comics I love that never seems to get any love, anywhere! And I have no idea how I discovered it.
posted by antifuse at 4:02 AM on October 10, 2006
posted by antifuse at 4:02 AM on October 10, 2006
oraknabo : "Dumb comic. Dumb discussion."
Dumb comment. Trifecta!
KirkJobSluder : "I don't think the haystack really is that much larger. Believe it or not, people did publish comics before the Internet, without national syndication. The Internet just makes it easier, for me located in the midwest United States to read a quirky British series which would probably only be gracing the local alternative newspapers."
I'm pretty sure Ynoxas's comment (and I know my comment preceding it) wasn't meant to mean that the number of comics has increased, but the number of comics available for one to sort through has increased.
To keep with the haystack metaphor: Let's say your small town has 10 farms (representing cities/countries), each with a haystack (local zines, alternative newspapers, etc). You can only look at your haystack (the zines/alts in your town) easily: to see the others, you'd need to go to a neighboring farm (get on a plane and go to another city). Now, with the internet, those 10 haystacks have been combined into one giant haystack in the center of town (the internet). The haystack that you spend your time looking through is now 10 times as big as it was. That doesn't mean there's more hay, just that you used to look through one local corner of the town's hay collection, and now you have the whole shebang of hay to look through.
posted by Bugbread at 5:20 AM on October 10, 2006
Dumb comment. Trifecta!
KirkJobSluder : "I don't think the haystack really is that much larger. Believe it or not, people did publish comics before the Internet, without national syndication. The Internet just makes it easier, for me located in the midwest United States to read a quirky British series which would probably only be gracing the local alternative newspapers."
I'm pretty sure Ynoxas's comment (and I know my comment preceding it) wasn't meant to mean that the number of comics has increased, but the number of comics available for one to sort through has increased.
To keep with the haystack metaphor: Let's say your small town has 10 farms (representing cities/countries), each with a haystack (local zines, alternative newspapers, etc). You can only look at your haystack (the zines/alts in your town) easily: to see the others, you'd need to go to a neighboring farm (get on a plane and go to another city). Now, with the internet, those 10 haystacks have been combined into one giant haystack in the center of town (the internet). The haystack that you spend your time looking through is now 10 times as big as it was. That doesn't mean there's more hay, just that you used to look through one local corner of the town's hay collection, and now you have the whole shebang of hay to look through.
posted by Bugbread at 5:20 AM on October 10, 2006
Well, the "needle in the haystack" analogy is flawed and inapplicable because finding things on the internet is a social endeavor.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:29 AM on October 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:29 AM on October 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
Besides which, after the passing of one E. Smith, the analogy has been officially rebranded as "needle in the haaaaaaaay".
posted by cortex at 7:49 AM on October 10, 2006
posted by cortex at 7:49 AM on October 10, 2006
Yeah, I was stretching the haystack analogy. I just wanted to make the point that I wasn't saying, and I don't think Ynoxas was saying, that the internet has caused greater creation of comics, just greater reach. That's all.
posted by Bugbread at 9:18 AM on October 10, 2006
posted by Bugbread at 9:18 AM on October 10, 2006
Well I think it's both. I think the ABSOLUTE number of comics has probably increased by some measure, because if nothing else, the technology has turned people who might have previously said "no use making a comic, noone would ever see it" into "hey, I can make a webpage too".
Basically, all the other comic conduits still exist, but another was added. So therefore, it only seems likely more would have sprung into existence.
And again, I applaud this. Anything that helps artists reach their (possible) audiences is a Good Thing (tm).
But bugbread does capture 90% of my intent... comics that would have before the 'net been inaccessible are now within easy reach. And so that has exponentially increased my possible choices even if everything else remained the same, which it likely hasn't (see above).
The net (heh) result is that I now have more choices than ever, and yes, a great many of the myriad more choices I have are of low quality. This is to be expected. It was that way before, and now it's only more so, if you see my point.
I've gotten some great pointers in this thread. Some I've already abandoned after 5 or 6 as they clearly weren't my thing. Some I've added to my bookmarks. One I've already obsessively worked my way almost all the way through their substantial archive.
KJS is also spot on, because it is indeed a social endeavor, just like this thread.
But the unfound needle may still certainly exist out there in the haystack of the net (booo!). Just because you or your contacts haven't seen it yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it could be fantastic. And where I had access to X comics before, now I have access to X+Y, so yes, the job has become harder. Or what bugbread said.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:08 AM on October 10, 2006
Basically, all the other comic conduits still exist, but another was added. So therefore, it only seems likely more would have sprung into existence.
And again, I applaud this. Anything that helps artists reach their (possible) audiences is a Good Thing (tm).
But bugbread does capture 90% of my intent... comics that would have before the 'net been inaccessible are now within easy reach. And so that has exponentially increased my possible choices even if everything else remained the same, which it likely hasn't (see above).
The net (heh) result is that I now have more choices than ever, and yes, a great many of the myriad more choices I have are of low quality. This is to be expected. It was that way before, and now it's only more so, if you see my point.
I've gotten some great pointers in this thread. Some I've already abandoned after 5 or 6 as they clearly weren't my thing. Some I've added to my bookmarks. One I've already obsessively worked my way almost all the way through their substantial archive.
KJS is also spot on, because it is indeed a social endeavor, just like this thread.
But the unfound needle may still certainly exist out there in the haystack of the net (booo!). Just because you or your contacts haven't seen it yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it could be fantastic. And where I had access to X comics before, now I have access to X+Y, so yes, the job has become harder. Or what bugbread said.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:08 AM on October 10, 2006
Ynoxas : "One I've already obsessively worked my way almost all the way through their substantial archive."
Don't tease, which?!
posted by Bugbread at 1:25 PM on October 10, 2006
Don't tease, which?!
posted by Bugbread at 1:25 PM on October 10, 2006
That's what you have to offer?
What else is there to add? The comic was stupid and not remotely funny - not to mention, inaccurate. The resulting back-and-forth of totally ignorant statements about the history of a fictional character was even more pointless and inaccurate.
Maybe I do have a lot more to offer, but at the time it just seemed like "I know more about Batman than any of you." and didn't seem worth the effort.
I'll admit I did nothing to "maintain a healthy, respectful discussion". Sorry to taint your MeFi experience.
posted by oraknabo at 6:10 PM on October 10, 2006
What else is there to add? The comic was stupid and not remotely funny - not to mention, inaccurate. The resulting back-and-forth of totally ignorant statements about the history of a fictional character was even more pointless and inaccurate.
Maybe I do have a lot more to offer, but at the time it just seemed like "I know more about Batman than any of you." and didn't seem worth the effort.
I'll admit I did nothing to "maintain a healthy, respectful discussion". Sorry to taint your MeFi experience.
posted by oraknabo at 6:10 PM on October 10, 2006
... not to mention, inaccurate.
You seem to recognize that it was supposed to be funny, yet you want it to be "accurate"? [shrug /] OK.
posted by lodurr at 7:36 AM on October 11, 2006
You seem to recognize that it was supposed to be funny, yet you want it to be "accurate"? [shrug /] OK.
posted by lodurr at 7:36 AM on October 11, 2006
oraknabo : "What else is there to add?"
Jim: "Hey, Bob, why'd you piss in my closet?"
Bob: "I didn't have anything else to put in it."
I don't think the problem is that you didn't have anything else to add, so much as the fact that you didn't really have anything to add in the first place.
posted by Bugbread at 7:44 AM on October 11, 2006
Jim: "Hey, Bob, why'd you piss in my closet?"
Bob: "I didn't have anything else to put in it."
I don't think the problem is that you didn't have anything else to add, so much as the fact that you didn't really have anything to add in the first place.
posted by Bugbread at 7:44 AM on October 11, 2006
I don't see what there is to complain about. Yeah, it's true Kurtz is a hell of a lot funnier in person than on paper, and sure this particular comic doesn't say anything that hasn't been said before, but let's be honest: It's still better than Achewood.
posted by majick at 4:45 PM on October 11, 2006
posted by majick at 4:45 PM on October 11, 2006
Wrong. QED.
posted by sonofsamiam at 5:32 PM on October 11, 2006
posted by sonofsamiam at 5:32 PM on October 11, 2006
« Older Columbus Day Time Killers | Oh, my! It's OHNY! Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by chunking express at 8:01 AM on October 9, 2006