Not just Al-Qaeda
December 30, 2006 12:15 PM Subscribe
What Type of Conflict is this? The West is basically clueless about the type of conflict in which it finds itself. This is a result of attempting to view the antagonists through a western, rather than a third world/religious paradigm Taken from a USAFA forum site.
This post was deleted for the following reason: lame anti-islam op-ed screed
No one can read the Koran and say it is a religion of peace.
The author of this piece lost me at this sentence. Primary sources often have little correlation to the religion as it is actually practiced.
Christians, of all people, should know this. After all, the Bible is full of directives to smite this or that, stories of the mass slaughter of entire cities including women and children and much other violence. Despite this, it is usually practiced as a religion of peace.
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 12:28 PM on December 30, 2006
The author of this piece lost me at this sentence. Primary sources often have little correlation to the religion as it is actually practiced.
Christians, of all people, should know this. After all, the Bible is full of directives to smite this or that, stories of the mass slaughter of entire cities including women and children and much other violence. Despite this, it is usually practiced as a religion of peace.
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 12:28 PM on December 30, 2006
The article was written by Doug Kronemeyer,
USAFA Class of 1972. Not just the blatherings of some right wing Fox News junkie... I found the premise interesting, at least.
posted by konolia at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2006
USAFA Class of 1972. Not just the blatherings of some right wing Fox News junkie... I found the premise interesting, at least.
posted by konolia at 12:30 PM on December 30, 2006
Has the Air Force Academy Declared War on Islam?
Anyway, thanks for the new word "dhimmitude" ("a person living in a Muslim state who is a member of an officially tolerated non-Islamic religion. In both legal theory and practice, dhimmis have fewer legal rights and obligations than Muslims."), but which is now being used to describe tolerance of Muslims living in non-Muslim states as a weakness.
Pressuring nations with oppressive "Muslim-based" practices to liberalize is a good thing to do IMO, but the "War on Terror" (and specifically the War in Iraq) has damaged, if not destroyed our ability to do "moral leadership" in that part of the world.
posted by wendell at 12:31 PM on December 30, 2006
Anyway, thanks for the new word "dhimmitude" ("a person living in a Muslim state who is a member of an officially tolerated non-Islamic religion. In both legal theory and practice, dhimmis have fewer legal rights and obligations than Muslims."), but which is now being used to describe tolerance of Muslims living in non-Muslim states as a weakness.
Pressuring nations with oppressive "Muslim-based" practices to liberalize is a good thing to do IMO, but the "War on Terror" (and specifically the War in Iraq) has damaged, if not destroyed our ability to do "moral leadership" in that part of the world.
posted by wendell at 12:31 PM on December 30, 2006
Interesting? yes. Informative as to both "Islamic Attitudes" and, maybe by accident, "Anti-Islamic Attitudes"? Maybe.
Of course, you could argue that the Air Force is the branch of the Armed Forces with the least exposure to the people and cultures of the places where war happens...
posted by wendell at 12:34 PM on December 30, 2006
Of course, you could argue that the Air Force is the branch of the Armed Forces with the least exposure to the people and cultures of the places where war happens...
posted by wendell at 12:34 PM on December 30, 2006
What a shit FPP. I guess this is an attempt to declare the Iraq war a failure while maintaining the jingoistic and xenophobic worldview that gave birth to it.
Practitioners of Islam must be theologically engaged to renounce their unacceptable tenants.
Indeed. Because their religion is obviously false and without value, being not-Christian, and all. Really, we just need to convert or kill them all--it's the only way for a permanent solution.
(Again with the hate, konolia--what's up with that?)
posted by LooseFilter at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2006
Practitioners of Islam must be theologically engaged to renounce their unacceptable tenants.
Indeed. Because their religion is obviously false and without value, being not-Christian, and all. Really, we just need to convert or kill them all--it's the only way for a permanent solution.
(Again with the hate, konolia--what's up with that?)
posted by LooseFilter at 12:35 PM on December 30, 2006
(Again with the hate, konolia--what's up with that?)
That's pretty much my view as well. If Jesus read this article, he'd verbally tear the author a new one, for ignoring almost all of his key teachings.
Sadly, many Christians do not practice a religion of peace. The only way to solve this is to kill them all.
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 12:39 PM on December 30, 2006
That's pretty much my view as well. If Jesus read this article, he'd verbally tear the author a new one, for ignoring almost all of his key teachings.
Sadly, many Christians do not practice a religion of peace. The only way to solve this is to kill them all.
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 12:39 PM on December 30, 2006
(Oh, and I know that last sentence was over the top, but the whole thread is going to get deleted anyway, since it sucks.)
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 12:39 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 12:39 PM on December 30, 2006
Guys, I am more interested regarding the viewpoints re the West as seeing the value of separation of church and state, while an Islamic view being that of church and state being one. I am not posting this from a religious view but a political one. This nation is in the process of trying to help birth a democracy in Iraq, and that process may very well be a fool's errand.
posted by konolia at 12:41 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by konolia at 12:41 PM on December 30, 2006
(And really, it's not a personal attack--the statement I quoted above belies the whole worldview of the author: to "theologically engage" Muslims to "renounce their unacceptable tenants" means to convert them to Christianity.
That's not a solution, that's perpetuating the problem. You might think it an interesting point of view, because you think your religion is true. To those billions of people in the world who disagree with your truth, this is more of the hate-mongering, religious warfare that caused 9/11 in the first place.)
posted by LooseFilter at 12:41 PM on December 30, 2006
That's not a solution, that's perpetuating the problem. You might think it an interesting point of view, because you think your religion is true. To those billions of people in the world who disagree with your truth, this is more of the hate-mongering, religious warfare that caused 9/11 in the first place.)
posted by LooseFilter at 12:41 PM on December 30, 2006
Oh, a fool's errand from OUR viewpoint, assuming an Islamic theocracy is not what Bush and company had in mind. It may certainly be what the people in Iraq desire to have.
posted by konolia at 12:43 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by konolia at 12:43 PM on December 30, 2006
Tacos Are Pretty Great: Despite this, [Christianity] is usually practiced as a religion of peace.
What does that mean? What is a "religion of peace"? To me, that's a Bushism... does anyone other than (possibly, including) Bush have an idea of what a "religion of peace" might be? Religions are conglomerations of worldviews and mythologies and traditions. What does it mean for one of these nebulous things to be "of peace"?
posted by gurple at 12:45 PM on December 30, 2006
What does that mean? What is a "religion of peace"? To me, that's a Bushism... does anyone other than (possibly, including) Bush have an idea of what a "religion of peace" might be? Religions are conglomerations of worldviews and mythologies and traditions. What does it mean for one of these nebulous things to be "of peace"?
posted by gurple at 12:45 PM on December 30, 2006
And yes, the Iraq war was a fool's errand from the beginning, but not for the reasons you think.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:45 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by LooseFilter at 12:45 PM on December 30, 2006
I think the only way to solve the problem is to theologically engage humans to renounce their unacceptable tenants.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:45 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:45 PM on December 30, 2006
Loosefilter, I am reading what he wrote from a political standpoint. I'm assuming what he wants to see is more states like Turkey, which has taken great pains to be a secular nation. There is a difference between freedom of religion for all and that of one religion (be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc) forcing its rules and tenets on all. (I'm not in favor of a Christian theocracy in this nation either because the people who would be running it scare the tar out of me.)
posted by konolia at 12:46 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by konolia at 12:46 PM on December 30, 2006
A society typically draws from its religious ethics in devising secular laws.
Sorry, that's bullshit.
Islam has been at war with the rest of human society to some degree ever since its inception.
Okay, okay, enough bullshit!
The US acquired the Philippines as a prize of war from Spain. The southern most group of islands, being Mindanao, was entirely Muslim. This West-Islamic conflict continues unabated to this day.
Again with the bullshit! We stole the Phillipines fair and square and kept it after waging a brutal, bloody war against the insurgents.
And the author needs to learn how to spell. Mongolian "hoards" and the "tenants" of Islam. Minor stuff, I know, but indicative of the messiness that went into this article.
posted by John of Michigan at 12:47 PM on December 30, 2006
Sorry, that's bullshit.
Islam has been at war with the rest of human society to some degree ever since its inception.
Okay, okay, enough bullshit!
The US acquired the Philippines as a prize of war from Spain. The southern most group of islands, being Mindanao, was entirely Muslim. This West-Islamic conflict continues unabated to this day.
Again with the bullshit! We stole the Phillipines fair and square and kept it after waging a brutal, bloody war against the insurgents.
And the author needs to learn how to spell. Mongolian "hoards" and the "tenants" of Islam. Minor stuff, I know, but indicative of the messiness that went into this article.
posted by John of Michigan at 12:47 PM on December 30, 2006
Incidentally, the one thing that I really like about this article is that it espouses the separation of church and state as a fundamental American value. A lot of Americans these days seem to agree with Islam that church and state should be commingled. If there's anything that really sets America's founding principles apart from those of other nations, it's the utter separation of the government from any religious foundation.
posted by gurple at 12:48 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by gurple at 12:48 PM on December 30, 2006
gurple - I think the people you're referring to, "A lot of Americans," support the separation of church and state, as long as it's not their church being separated from their state.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:51 PM on December 30, 2006
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:51 PM on December 30, 2006
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From the last paragraph:
The West must either submit incrementally to dhimmitude or find the strength to defend its freedoms.
I suppose if you didn't know anything at all about the conflict or the actors it might be somewhat informative. But probably not.
posted by delmoi at 12:25 PM on December 30, 2006