Tipping Is a Legacy of Slavery
February 8, 2021 8:50 AM Subscribe
Michelle Alexander on why the US should abolish the racist, sexist subminimum wage: "Before the pandemic, Black women who are tipped restaurant workers earned on average nearly $5 an hour less than their white male counterparts nationwide — largely because they are segregated into more casual restaurants in which they earn far less in tips than white men who more often work in fine dining, but also because of customer bias in tipping. With the pandemic, these inequities were exacerbated; nearly nine in 10 Black tipped workers reported that their tips decreased by half or more, compared to 78 percent of workers overall." (NYT/Archive.is)
Mentioned in the article: Forked: A New Standard for American Dining by Saru Jayaraman
Mentioned in the article: Forked: A New Standard for American Dining by Saru Jayaraman
Tipping has always struck me as one of the most discriminatory policies that is so easy to get rid of. Restaurant managers just take the average tips received by their staff for the last few months, then increase the pay of their staff accordingly, and increase the cost of items accordingly. It's just moving money around. Yes, it eliminates some amount of customer ability to influence their service, but waiters don't actually change their service based on tipping (given tipping happens after service and not before), and getting rid of tipping would just make restaurant servers like every other worker.
posted by saeculorum at 9:38 AM on February 8, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by saeculorum at 9:38 AM on February 8, 2021 [15 favorites]
saeculorum, if you're talking about doing that while also banning tipping - I totally agree with you, but will also note that many/most of the restaurants that have tried to put in place no-tipping policies eventually went back to allowing tips. Even though everyone seems to hate our tipping culture, people seem very resistant to changing it. I think it's going to have to change at a policy level instead of a restaurant-by-restaurant thing.
I'll also note that the subminimum wage is very regional. The entire west coast, including AK, does not have a separate tipped minimum wage.
(That is not, unfortunately, true for other subminimum wages like ones for people with disabilities and people in prison...)
posted by mosst at 10:05 AM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'll also note that the subminimum wage is very regional. The entire west coast, including AK, does not have a separate tipped minimum wage.
(That is not, unfortunately, true for other subminimum wages like ones for people with disabilities and people in prison...)
posted by mosst at 10:05 AM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
I would love to eat at a no-tipping restaurant and did, once, years ago in San Francisco. The server explained the why and it made so much sense.
A slight derail: I would love to see a program for prison labor that created a savings account and paid fair wages (not fifty cents an hour) that would set up people when they get out. But since extraction of $$$ from the incarcerated and their loved ones is big business and punishment is the point, I would rather abolish them altogether.
posted by zenzenobia at 10:18 AM on February 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
A slight derail: I would love to see a program for prison labor that created a savings account and paid fair wages (not fifty cents an hour) that would set up people when they get out. But since extraction of $$$ from the incarcerated and their loved ones is big business and punishment is the point, I would rather abolish them altogether.
posted by zenzenobia at 10:18 AM on February 8, 2021 [7 favorites]
As I understand it, some of the strongest opposition to moving away from tipping comes from waitstaff. (Not, in my view, a strong argument for keeping it, but important for context.)
posted by kickingtheground at 10:31 AM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 10:31 AM on February 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
"nearly nine in 10 Black tipped workers reported that their tips decreased by half or more, compared to 78 percent of workers overall."
Side note peave. Why do journalists use this awkward construction -- nine in 10 compared to 78%. You see it all the time and I think it has something to do with avoiding "redundant repetition." It's just too boring to put two percentages in the same sentence so they feel impelled to do some fancy wordsmithing to change it up. They are forcing their readers to do some arithmetic in their heads to understand the comparison. But that elevates form over function. Are they choosing to inform or entertain?
A ratio or fraction is fine if you are talking about only one number but if you are doing comparisons, stick to percents. And "nine in 10" mixes words and digits. I realize there are style rules but style shouldn't obscure information.
My favorite goes something like 1 in 9 believe X, while two-thirds believe Y and 22% believe Z. They get the trifecta of a ratio, a fraction and a percentage all in one sentence.
posted by JackFlash at 10:40 AM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
Side note peave. Why do journalists use this awkward construction -- nine in 10 compared to 78%. You see it all the time and I think it has something to do with avoiding "redundant repetition." It's just too boring to put two percentages in the same sentence so they feel impelled to do some fancy wordsmithing to change it up. They are forcing their readers to do some arithmetic in their heads to understand the comparison. But that elevates form over function. Are they choosing to inform or entertain?
A ratio or fraction is fine if you are talking about only one number but if you are doing comparisons, stick to percents. And "nine in 10" mixes words and digits. I realize there are style rules but style shouldn't obscure information.
My favorite goes something like 1 in 9 believe X, while two-thirds believe Y and 22% believe Z. They get the trifecta of a ratio, a fraction and a percentage all in one sentence.
posted by JackFlash at 10:40 AM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
I think it's going to have to change at a policy level instead of a restaurant-by-restaurant thing.
This. Such things are already set at a policy level throughout the US, it doesn't have to be that hard.
As I understand it, some of the strongest opposition to moving away from tipping comes from waitstaff.
Demonstrating the caste-level biases that make it so difficult to form solidarity among economic classes in this country, because this is IME almost always a division between front of house (more often white, generally better compensated, much more likely to have avenues/appeal to the media/politicians) than the "tipped" workers in the kitchen (generally POC, underpaid, underrepresented). Which this article sorta gets at.
This has come out of the woodwork every time we have the conversation here in DC, and it's frankly pretty fucking disappointing how quick people are to sell out the people who actually make the food and wash the dishes so they can bring it to some jerkoff's table.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:47 AM on February 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
This. Such things are already set at a policy level throughout the US, it doesn't have to be that hard.
As I understand it, some of the strongest opposition to moving away from tipping comes from waitstaff.
Demonstrating the caste-level biases that make it so difficult to form solidarity among economic classes in this country, because this is IME almost always a division between front of house (more often white, generally better compensated, much more likely to have avenues/appeal to the media/politicians) than the "tipped" workers in the kitchen (generally POC, underpaid, underrepresented). Which this article sorta gets at.
This has come out of the woodwork every time we have the conversation here in DC, and it's frankly pretty fucking disappointing how quick people are to sell out the people who actually make the food and wash the dishes so they can bring it to some jerkoff's table.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:47 AM on February 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
Getting individual restaurants to stop using tips and just pay better wages is like fighting climate change by getting everyone to recycle. It doesn't work. You need a systemic approach.
One problem people who don't work in restaurants often don't realize is that tipping culture disproportionately weights the voices of those employees who want tips. Why? Because the employees who make good tips are the ones of most value to the employer. Those who make sub-average tips tend to be on their way out the door anyway, either because the money (by definition) kinda sucks or just because of high turnover in the industry in general.
A lot of places also have an informal hierarchy among non-management staff which reinforces tipping culture as well. Bartenders are higher in the pecking order than servers, who in turn are above dishwashers and bussers. Guess which of those jobs tends to do better tip-wise than the others.
posted by axiom at 10:49 AM on February 8, 2021 [10 favorites]
One problem people who don't work in restaurants often don't realize is that tipping culture disproportionately weights the voices of those employees who want tips. Why? Because the employees who make good tips are the ones of most value to the employer. Those who make sub-average tips tend to be on their way out the door anyway, either because the money (by definition) kinda sucks or just because of high turnover in the industry in general.
A lot of places also have an informal hierarchy among non-management staff which reinforces tipping culture as well. Bartenders are higher in the pecking order than servers, who in turn are above dishwashers and bussers. Guess which of those jobs tends to do better tip-wise than the others.
posted by axiom at 10:49 AM on February 8, 2021 [10 favorites]
I ate at a not-cheap but non-fancy place in Oakland a few years back that explained that all tips were shared equally among all the staff. I gave a bigger tip than usual because I thought that was awesome.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:07 AM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 11:07 AM on February 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
I think most people who read that will think that tipped employees are legally guaranteed only $2.13 an hour. In fact, the law requires that if tips don't make up the difference between $2.13 and the minimum wage, employers have to increase the base wage. Sure, they often don't. Would moving to a top-up system help? Probably. But that's not the question the article presented.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:36 AM on February 8, 2021
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:36 AM on February 8, 2021
My feelings about tipping and food service are about as complicated as the economics behind it, which are very complicated.
First I want to say that I'm very much pro-minimum wage and very much against the idea that a tipped position should have an even lower minimum wage.
I didn't really like or understand tipping until I started working in the industry, and then I loved it. I ended up being a lot more gregarious than I thought I ever could be and started treating it as a highly entertaining and rewarding game.
The customer is there to be entertained. I'm bored and I want money in my tip jar. Let's do this.
And I've learned a lot about the industry, and at least in the US it's really difficult to apply the idea that they should just be paying a living wage anyway like any other job.
Putting aside the valid part about tipping being the living examples or vestiges of tipping being a weird capitalist and classist anachronism - something to consider is that many restaurant owners and operators can't really afford to pay a proper hourly wage if the business is sporadic or they're not extremely well established and profitable already, or otherwise backed by major amounts of credit and float.
It's an industry that's very difficult to predict staffing needs. Things can often be so marginal that a bad couple of weeks with too many staff on hand can wreck most restaurants bank accounts, even if the owner is not paying themselves a wage and essentially working for tips and small business owner benefits like eating free leftovers.
With the restaurant industry there's a totally insane balancing act going on where you need to thread a financial needle with stocking, prep and staffing and when you're in the doldrums you start burning money like crazy with payroll and unsold product and prep in addition to normal relatively fixed business expenses like rent, insurance and utilities.
This is why most restaurants tend to run lean and a little understaffed, and why staffing hierarchies evolve with benefits like scheduling priority and why restaurant or kitchen managers put their fastest, hardest workers on the best, busiest and most lucrative shifts because in addition to the topic of racism or classism at hand there's also totally valid work/effort capabilities and classifications going on behind the scenes.
Because there are people in the restaurant industry that can easily do 3-4x the work of someone else just because they have that much experience and hustle and this comes into play in the industry on a daily or weekly basis for most small restaurants with the ebb and flow of how busy a place is.
I've worked with people that can run circles around me all day long with prep work or working a hot line. I've also worked with people that, in turn, I too can run circles around.
Modern tipping is a huge part of what fuels this for industry vets and sort of acts as a piece-work stipend where the busier they are the more they're getting paid and theoretically the take home pay and compensation scales with the work load.
The part that a lot of well meaning non-industry armchair economics don't ever seem to account for is this highly variable economic ebb and flow. Which can range from so slow that you've cleaned everything that can be cleaned and you're actively refraining from prepping any more stock so you don't waste even more food to so busy you wish you had six arms and a few clones of your best staff and you run out of everything and 86 the entire menu.
For better or worse tipping helps share and diversify this load and economic impact.
posted by loquacious at 12:40 PM on February 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
First I want to say that I'm very much pro-minimum wage and very much against the idea that a tipped position should have an even lower minimum wage.
I didn't really like or understand tipping until I started working in the industry, and then I loved it. I ended up being a lot more gregarious than I thought I ever could be and started treating it as a highly entertaining and rewarding game.
The customer is there to be entertained. I'm bored and I want money in my tip jar. Let's do this.
And I've learned a lot about the industry, and at least in the US it's really difficult to apply the idea that they should just be paying a living wage anyway like any other job.
Putting aside the valid part about tipping being the living examples or vestiges of tipping being a weird capitalist and classist anachronism - something to consider is that many restaurant owners and operators can't really afford to pay a proper hourly wage if the business is sporadic or they're not extremely well established and profitable already, or otherwise backed by major amounts of credit and float.
It's an industry that's very difficult to predict staffing needs. Things can often be so marginal that a bad couple of weeks with too many staff on hand can wreck most restaurants bank accounts, even if the owner is not paying themselves a wage and essentially working for tips and small business owner benefits like eating free leftovers.
With the restaurant industry there's a totally insane balancing act going on where you need to thread a financial needle with stocking, prep and staffing and when you're in the doldrums you start burning money like crazy with payroll and unsold product and prep in addition to normal relatively fixed business expenses like rent, insurance and utilities.
This is why most restaurants tend to run lean and a little understaffed, and why staffing hierarchies evolve with benefits like scheduling priority and why restaurant or kitchen managers put their fastest, hardest workers on the best, busiest and most lucrative shifts because in addition to the topic of racism or classism at hand there's also totally valid work/effort capabilities and classifications going on behind the scenes.
Because there are people in the restaurant industry that can easily do 3-4x the work of someone else just because they have that much experience and hustle and this comes into play in the industry on a daily or weekly basis for most small restaurants with the ebb and flow of how busy a place is.
I've worked with people that can run circles around me all day long with prep work or working a hot line. I've also worked with people that, in turn, I too can run circles around.
Modern tipping is a huge part of what fuels this for industry vets and sort of acts as a piece-work stipend where the busier they are the more they're getting paid and theoretically the take home pay and compensation scales with the work load.
The part that a lot of well meaning non-industry armchair economics don't ever seem to account for is this highly variable economic ebb and flow. Which can range from so slow that you've cleaned everything that can be cleaned and you're actively refraining from prepping any more stock so you don't waste even more food to so busy you wish you had six arms and a few clones of your best staff and you run out of everything and 86 the entire menu.
For better or worse tipping helps share and diversify this load and economic impact.
posted by loquacious at 12:40 PM on February 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
something to consider is that many restaurant owners and operators can't really afford to pay a proper hourly wage if the business is sporadic or they're not extremely well established and profitable already, or otherwise backed by major amounts of credit and float.
Why should a restaurant "deserve" to be in business any more than a worker should deserve a reasonable wage? The position that a business is somehow magically a force for good is just capitalist mythology. If the workers don't benefit, maybe the business simply shouldn't exist.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 12:54 PM on February 8, 2021 [28 favorites]
Why should a restaurant "deserve" to be in business any more than a worker should deserve a reasonable wage? The position that a business is somehow magically a force for good is just capitalist mythology. If the workers don't benefit, maybe the business simply shouldn't exist.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 12:54 PM on February 8, 2021 [28 favorites]
the law requires that if tips don't make up the difference between $2.13 and the minimum wage, employers have to increase the base wage.
Any worker who consistently pulls less than the federal minimum wage - or admits to it - is likely to be fired for being "lazy." (Everyone else got enough tips--why didn't you? Must have been insulting the customers or something.) Insisting that they didn't make enough tips last week to reach minimum wage is likely a one-shot event. And it may not even get them paid the difference between what they actually took in and minimum wage - the boss may decide to fire the worker and take his chances on whether the employee knows how to get a lawyer that can fight for the missing wages.
Tipped workers are going to continue insisting they want tips, because when it's going well, they can pull in a LOT more than their base wage, and because it's really hard to believe that raising wages all around would be better for them. (File this one under "temporarily embarrassed millionaires.")
There are so many industries that are tangled with tipping policies, that the best approach is probably first to eliminate min-wage exceptions and make minimum wage a living wage, give that a few months to a couple of years, and then look at how tipping is working once it's not anyone's lifeline.
...that also means changes in the #$@#% "gig economy" app-based jobs where "hourly wages" are damned hard to calculate.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:01 PM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
Any worker who consistently pulls less than the federal minimum wage - or admits to it - is likely to be fired for being "lazy." (Everyone else got enough tips--why didn't you? Must have been insulting the customers or something.) Insisting that they didn't make enough tips last week to reach minimum wage is likely a one-shot event. And it may not even get them paid the difference between what they actually took in and minimum wage - the boss may decide to fire the worker and take his chances on whether the employee knows how to get a lawyer that can fight for the missing wages.
Tipped workers are going to continue insisting they want tips, because when it's going well, they can pull in a LOT more than their base wage, and because it's really hard to believe that raising wages all around would be better for them. (File this one under "temporarily embarrassed millionaires.")
There are so many industries that are tangled with tipping policies, that the best approach is probably first to eliminate min-wage exceptions and make minimum wage a living wage, give that a few months to a couple of years, and then look at how tipping is working once it's not anyone's lifeline.
...that also means changes in the #$@#% "gig economy" app-based jobs where "hourly wages" are damned hard to calculate.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:01 PM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
And I've learned a lot about the industry, and at least in the US it's really difficult to apply the idea that they should just be paying a living wage anyway like any other job ... For better or worse tipping helps share and diversify this load and economic impact.
A restaurant is not a charity. It's a for-profit business. They shouldn't expect charity from their employees to keep their business going.
If the business isn't viable enough to pay a living wage, then maybe the owner should try something else. The public is telling them that what they are providing isn't of value. It's not like there aren't hundreds of restaurants around and a few will be missed.
posted by JackFlash at 1:02 PM on February 8, 2021 [19 favorites]
A restaurant is not a charity. It's a for-profit business. They shouldn't expect charity from their employees to keep their business going.
If the business isn't viable enough to pay a living wage, then maybe the owner should try something else. The public is telling them that what they are providing isn't of value. It's not like there aren't hundreds of restaurants around and a few will be missed.
posted by JackFlash at 1:02 PM on February 8, 2021 [19 favorites]
Any argument that tipping is necessary or even favorable are easily refuted by pointing at the majority of countries with thriving hospitality industries that don't do this. It's a very American thing to presume yours must be the best way and so ignore literally everywhere else. See also healthcare and gun control.
Regarding the title of this post, funny how America is so stubborn to reconcile with its history of slavery, and also stubborn to change unfair backwards and upside down labor laws by actually paying people to work.
posted by adept256 at 1:04 PM on February 8, 2021 [44 favorites]
Regarding the title of this post, funny how America is so stubborn to reconcile with its history of slavery, and also stubborn to change unfair backwards and upside down labor laws by actually paying people to work.
posted by adept256 at 1:04 PM on February 8, 2021 [44 favorites]
Seconding what adept256 said. Every time tipping comes up on MeFi you all lose your mind. The argument about “guaranteeing a good level of service” is particularly inane.
posted by awfurby at 1:12 PM on February 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by awfurby at 1:12 PM on February 8, 2021 [16 favorites]
Tipping is a social issue, not really a political one. That is, good luck thinking legislation will eliminate the practice; it will take a social movement. And tipping is so ingrained in the U.S. it is a real uphill battle, but I certainly welcome its demise.
posted by zardoz at 1:18 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 1:18 PM on February 8, 2021 [3 favorites]
I didn't really like or understand tipping until I started working in the industry, and then I loved it. I ended up being a lot more gregarious than I thought I ever could be and started treating it as a highly entertaining and rewarding game.I wouldn't normally do this, but if you want to post this kind of anecdote to this thread it kinda feels you should prefix it with your race and gender expression.
posted by krisjohn at 2:05 PM on February 8, 2021 [11 favorites]
a highly entertaining and rewarding game.
And here, particularly embedded within the context of the FPP link, is everything I dislike about tipping from the consumer side.
I don't want to be making decisions about who gets to eat/afford rent! I don't want to be entertained! I don't want to be compelled to participate in a system that's reinforcing systematic racism! I just want to get the thing I'm paying for with as little "maybe the person providing this to me isn't getting a living wage" as possible.
Did I get what I paid for? 20%. Did you go above and beyond? 20% (and please, ask first) Are you delivering pizzas to me? 20%. (this is, of course, a non-pandemic point, since I'm not about to go out to eat until line workers are able to safely get the vaccine, etc)
I rather love a local brewery's no-tipping policy page
And here, particularly embedded within the context of the FPP link, is everything I dislike about tipping from the consumer side.
I don't want to be making decisions about who gets to eat/afford rent! I don't want to be entertained! I don't want to be compelled to participate in a system that's reinforcing systematic racism! I just want to get the thing I'm paying for with as little "maybe the person providing this to me isn't getting a living wage" as possible.
Did I get what I paid for? 20%. Did you go above and beyond? 20% (and please, ask first) Are you delivering pizzas to me? 20%. (this is, of course, a non-pandemic point, since I'm not about to go out to eat until line workers are able to safely get the vaccine, etc)
I rather love a local brewery's no-tipping policy page
Optimism believes businesses should be responsible for their workers’ wages, not the whim of the customer. Employees deserve a living wage they can count on, so wages start at $20/hour, and we pay 100% of our employees’ health care, among other benefits like three weeks of vacation and one month of paid parental leave. But we have other reasons for being anti-tipping/gratuities/service charges:posted by CrystalDave at 2:29 PM on February 8, 2021 [44 favorites]
• Tipping often means that the people who serve products end up making more than the ones who create them, and we think that disparity is wrong.
• Tipping has a classist, racist history. Tipping was an aristocratic custom that did not take hold in the United States until slavery was abolished. Employers didn’t like having to pay wages to newly-freed African-Americans, so tipping became their only source of income.
• Tipping is super sexist: 70% of all tipped workers are women, who are forced to live on tips and compelled to tolerate inappropriate behavior to make a living; 37% of all sexual harassment claims come from restaurants.
• Customers don’t like having to tip. Tipping feels awkward and compulsory. Doing math when the bill arrives is a pain. We don’t like having to tip, so why would we make our customers do it?
• Tips do not fix poor service. If someone has a bad experience at Optimism, that is the company’s fault, not the server's. A tip is a very inefficient way of communicating a problem to the people who can actually do something about it. Tell us, don’t punish someone’s salary.
• Tipping fosters competition between co-workers for the best shifts and sections, instead of cooperation and teamwork.
• Studies have shown, tips do not ensure good service. Do you tip your doctor or banker? People in other professions perform their jobs well without being tipped by customers. Why is this industry any different? We know people are not motivated by money to do their job well, they simply take pride in their work. Believing a tip ensures better service is dehumanizing: it makes the server a lower class person. It is icky.
Tipping also has gendered and racist impact on the customer. Ask an all-female party or a some-BIPOC party what it’s like to be ignored by a server or bartender all night, thanks to ugly stereotypes about which groups tip better.
And don’t even get me started on servers who manhandle people because some stupid Reader’s Digest article told them customers tip better when you touch them.
posted by armeowda at 4:04 PM on February 8, 2021 [13 favorites]
And don’t even get me started on servers who manhandle people because some stupid Reader’s Digest article told them customers tip better when you touch them.
posted by armeowda at 4:04 PM on February 8, 2021 [13 favorites]
With the restaurant industry there's a totally insane balancing act going on where you need to thread a financial needle
This is 100% true, but it feels like the solution should be to address the things that cause it to be a balancing act in the first place (financing, rent, insurance, pricing, etc.) rather than to use sub-minimum wages to try to make up the difference.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 4:32 PM on February 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
This is 100% true, but it feels like the solution should be to address the things that cause it to be a balancing act in the first place (financing, rent, insurance, pricing, etc.) rather than to use sub-minimum wages to try to make up the difference.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 4:32 PM on February 8, 2021 [12 favorites]
The minimum wage is not the minimum you are allowed to pay. That's a cruel and arbitrary number. The very minimum wage is what it costs to shelter and sustain a human life with dignity so they are able to work. If you are only paying enough to cover the bus fare, that's not the minimum fucking wage. JFC.
posted by adept256 at 5:03 PM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 5:03 PM on February 8, 2021 [8 favorites]
something to consider is that many restaurant owners and operators can't really afford to pay a proper hourly wage if the business is sporadic or they're not extremely well established and profitable already, or otherwise backed by major amounts of credit and float.
Not to pile on, because I too have been on both sides of this. But saysthis summarized my feelings quite succinctly recently.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:18 PM on February 8, 2021
Not to pile on, because I too have been on both sides of this. But saysthis summarized my feelings quite succinctly recently.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:18 PM on February 8, 2021
Great topic!
I wanted to add that people can easily get used to not tipping.
I used to think tipping was “natural.” Now that I live in Australia, I’m happy to pay more for workers to get a minimum wage and even penalty rates (bonus pay) on holidays. (Not happy about illegal underpayment that can happen, but it does eventually get prosecuted.)
I also agree that business owners who can’t manage to pay hourly employees properly should do something else. What’s crazy is that the businesses doing this are not all low cost places, such as this former Australian MasterChef winner’s business...
As a bonus, it makes predicting meal expenses much easier! Would also be great if the US would mandate policies that required ALL TAXES AND FEES in posted prices, which is another thing I like about Australia.
posted by ec2y at 6:21 PM on February 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
I wanted to add that people can easily get used to not tipping.
I used to think tipping was “natural.” Now that I live in Australia, I’m happy to pay more for workers to get a minimum wage and even penalty rates (bonus pay) on holidays. (Not happy about illegal underpayment that can happen, but it does eventually get prosecuted.)
I also agree that business owners who can’t manage to pay hourly employees properly should do something else. What’s crazy is that the businesses doing this are not all low cost places, such as this former Australian MasterChef winner’s business...
As a bonus, it makes predicting meal expenses much easier! Would also be great if the US would mandate policies that required ALL TAXES AND FEES in posted prices, which is another thing I like about Australia.
posted by ec2y at 6:21 PM on February 8, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry, I don't think I've articulated myself well. I'm frustrated and scared and I haven't worked since November and this thread in particular probably isn't the place to talk about it, but I feel I should do a follow up and explicate myself.
As much as working in a restaurant during this pandemic - or in general - is really shitty, it was paying my rent and bills and keeping me from being homeless. I sure miss my tips right now, where we all shared alike from bar to dishpit and the business was more like a co-op than a wage-theft operation.
Yes, some businesses don't deserve to exist. Some businesses are outright abusers of labor. This is definitely true. Yes, UBI and better social safety nets would be a boon to small businesses.
What I'm trying to communicate is that there is some nuance and gray area here that there are some good small businesses that are a local good and net positive even if they aren't as profitable as they need to be to survive in a cut throat industry beset on all sides by capitalism and financial pressures from all corners.
I'm also trying to communicate this from the perspective of someone visibly queer and different that this directly impacts me and it my report from the trenches and the front lines.
The place I am on furlough from - if we make it - is basically the closest thing to a LGBTQ bar we have in the area. It is - or was, or will be again - a music and arts focused venue. For lack of better terms it's a queer art bar.
We're not talking about an Applebees or a Chipotle, we're talking about a valued local cultural and community center and resource.
It's the kind of place that actively employs PoC and openly queer people. It's the kind of place that doesn't tolerate leering, sexual assault or other unwanted contact from customers and will get you legally trespassed and kicked out. It's the kind of place that also doesn't tolerate unwanted attention from customer to customer.
Because we operate like a family and co-op I've personally 86ed bad customers who have been really shitty to my coworkers. I've had to talk to the police and give witness statements for trespassing offenders.
I recognize that not all independent bars or restaurants are like this one. I recognize that it's special. But this one is special, and it's mine, and it's my family and I miss it so much I'm going fucking bonkers with worry over here just trying to hang in there until we can get back to normal and have live music and be a weird art dive bar again.
So when I hear things like "Some businesses doesn't deserve to exist!" - especially from people who have a high chance of being able to have a decent paying career job they can work from home or otherwise navigate in this pandemic a lot more comfortably - talking about the kind of business I'm talking about...
...where, yes, I and some of my coworkers have voluntarily worked for tips alone or even free because we wanted to it and was better than no work or income at all...
...what I'm actually hearing and seeing in reality as it is currently practiced in the present is that I don't deserve to have a job at all as a visibly queer person or that these businesses that are also marginalized themselves because they dare hang a Pride flag front and center in the bar, or refuse to tolerate cishet nonsense and abuse and other choices that they've made that have everything to do with trying to be good community citizens in the face of capitalist and economic pressure.
Because until we actually solve the problems inherent in a tipping based economy and wealth inequality and we have actually built that solid social safety net, this is the reality of what's been happening on the ground during the pandemic.
People are losing their spiritual cultural homes and local centers and places that don't suck, because many of these places were already barely profitable and marginal specifically because they looked out for their staff and regular customer base, not in spite of it.
Yes, this is really a whole lot of plea to emotions and is orthogonal to the racism and classism being addressed in the FPP but I'm scared and frustrated and I miss my working family. I miss stacking up tips and being able to actually have a meager daily and weekly cash flow. I miss my regular customers. I miss the frenetic energy and total insanity of working in a busy kitchen shooting down tickets like a machine. I miss working so hard it feels like my head is going to spin right off.
If you have better solutions like UBI and universal health care and eliminating tipping - well, I'm right there with you at the polls, marches and demonstrations. I've been here for 30 frickin' years protesting the same shit over and over again.
But until we have better solutions?
You're talking about my job and ability to eke out a very small living in the margins of this fucked up capitalist system, and tipping and tipping culture isn't the actual enemy. It's a symptom.
And it sure isn't my boss and broke as fuck small business owner. It sure isn't our mostly queer staff. It sure isn't most of us schlubs just trying to get by.
The actual enemy is way up the chain of command and they own banks, not restaurants.
posted by loquacious at 6:33 PM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
As much as working in a restaurant during this pandemic - or in general - is really shitty, it was paying my rent and bills and keeping me from being homeless. I sure miss my tips right now, where we all shared alike from bar to dishpit and the business was more like a co-op than a wage-theft operation.
Yes, some businesses don't deserve to exist. Some businesses are outright abusers of labor. This is definitely true. Yes, UBI and better social safety nets would be a boon to small businesses.
What I'm trying to communicate is that there is some nuance and gray area here that there are some good small businesses that are a local good and net positive even if they aren't as profitable as they need to be to survive in a cut throat industry beset on all sides by capitalism and financial pressures from all corners.
I'm also trying to communicate this from the perspective of someone visibly queer and different that this directly impacts me and it my report from the trenches and the front lines.
The place I am on furlough from - if we make it - is basically the closest thing to a LGBTQ bar we have in the area. It is - or was, or will be again - a music and arts focused venue. For lack of better terms it's a queer art bar.
We're not talking about an Applebees or a Chipotle, we're talking about a valued local cultural and community center and resource.
It's the kind of place that actively employs PoC and openly queer people. It's the kind of place that doesn't tolerate leering, sexual assault or other unwanted contact from customers and will get you legally trespassed and kicked out. It's the kind of place that also doesn't tolerate unwanted attention from customer to customer.
Because we operate like a family and co-op I've personally 86ed bad customers who have been really shitty to my coworkers. I've had to talk to the police and give witness statements for trespassing offenders.
I recognize that not all independent bars or restaurants are like this one. I recognize that it's special. But this one is special, and it's mine, and it's my family and I miss it so much I'm going fucking bonkers with worry over here just trying to hang in there until we can get back to normal and have live music and be a weird art dive bar again.
So when I hear things like "Some businesses doesn't deserve to exist!" - especially from people who have a high chance of being able to have a decent paying career job they can work from home or otherwise navigate in this pandemic a lot more comfortably - talking about the kind of business I'm talking about...
...where, yes, I and some of my coworkers have voluntarily worked for tips alone or even free because we wanted to it and was better than no work or income at all...
...what I'm actually hearing and seeing in reality as it is currently practiced in the present is that I don't deserve to have a job at all as a visibly queer person or that these businesses that are also marginalized themselves because they dare hang a Pride flag front and center in the bar, or refuse to tolerate cishet nonsense and abuse and other choices that they've made that have everything to do with trying to be good community citizens in the face of capitalist and economic pressure.
Because until we actually solve the problems inherent in a tipping based economy and wealth inequality and we have actually built that solid social safety net, this is the reality of what's been happening on the ground during the pandemic.
People are losing their spiritual cultural homes and local centers and places that don't suck, because many of these places were already barely profitable and marginal specifically because they looked out for their staff and regular customer base, not in spite of it.
Yes, this is really a whole lot of plea to emotions and is orthogonal to the racism and classism being addressed in the FPP but I'm scared and frustrated and I miss my working family. I miss stacking up tips and being able to actually have a meager daily and weekly cash flow. I miss my regular customers. I miss the frenetic energy and total insanity of working in a busy kitchen shooting down tickets like a machine. I miss working so hard it feels like my head is going to spin right off.
If you have better solutions like UBI and universal health care and eliminating tipping - well, I'm right there with you at the polls, marches and demonstrations. I've been here for 30 frickin' years protesting the same shit over and over again.
But until we have better solutions?
You're talking about my job and ability to eke out a very small living in the margins of this fucked up capitalist system, and tipping and tipping culture isn't the actual enemy. It's a symptom.
And it sure isn't my boss and broke as fuck small business owner. It sure isn't our mostly queer staff. It sure isn't most of us schlubs just trying to get by.
The actual enemy is way up the chain of command and they own banks, not restaurants.
posted by loquacious at 6:33 PM on February 8, 2021 [20 favorites]
I (recently) spent over a decade and the majority of my adult life working both FOH and BOH in a variety of US cities and I can say, from the recent frontlines, that tipping culture is a disaster. It supports FOH, it fucks over BOH, it encourages privilege on both customer AND STAFF fronts, and it needs to fucking go.
Sorry FOH homies, you aren't worth $30 an hour when kitchen makes $12. The entitlement of of waitstaff is deeply frustrating, and it's utterly unfair to claim "working class" when you pull 50k on 30 hours a week (and report 37k).
I deeply, deeply, wish that more restaurants could have the fortitude to push back against servers who want tips. It's not fair to anyone.
posted by chuntered inelegantly from a sedentary position at 1:06 AM on February 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
Sorry FOH homies, you aren't worth $30 an hour when kitchen makes $12. The entitlement of of waitstaff is deeply frustrating, and it's utterly unfair to claim "working class" when you pull 50k on 30 hours a week (and report 37k).
I deeply, deeply, wish that more restaurants could have the fortitude to push back against servers who want tips. It's not fair to anyone.
posted by chuntered inelegantly from a sedentary position at 1:06 AM on February 9, 2021 [7 favorites]
But until we have better solutions?.... it sure isn't my boss and broke as fuck small business owner.
Sorry, but it is. The role of a leader is to lead, and to make tough decisions. A good restaurant owner should cancel tips, pay staff accordingly, AND TELL THIS LOUDLY TO THE PUBLIC. It's pure cowardice that prevents this.
If you don't want to be a leader, then don't start a business that has staff. There's never going to be some US law that says "tips are illegal" or whatever. Just social pressure to do the right thing, so you know, DO it.
Sorry I really don't mean to call you out, I'm just so fucking frustrated from years of this shit, and you actually know the service industry, so here we are.
posted by chuntered inelegantly from a sedentary position at 1:28 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Sorry, but it is. The role of a leader is to lead, and to make tough decisions. A good restaurant owner should cancel tips, pay staff accordingly, AND TELL THIS LOUDLY TO THE PUBLIC. It's pure cowardice that prevents this.
If you don't want to be a leader, then don't start a business that has staff. There's never going to be some US law that says "tips are illegal" or whatever. Just social pressure to do the right thing, so you know, DO it.
Sorry I really don't mean to call you out, I'm just so fucking frustrated from years of this shit, and you actually know the service industry, so here we are.
posted by chuntered inelegantly from a sedentary position at 1:28 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
We're not talking about an Applebees or a Chipotle, we're talking about a valued local cultural and community center and resource.
Maybe it doesn’t need to be a business. In an ideal world, something like this could be structured as a nonprofit and do the same things. It could have, for example, some employees working for a higher wage, and members or volunteers doing some stuff. Like a club, or a LGBTQ VFW.
posted by snofoam at 3:15 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Maybe it doesn’t need to be a business. In an ideal world, something like this could be structured as a nonprofit and do the same things. It could have, for example, some employees working for a higher wage, and members or volunteers doing some stuff. Like a club, or a LGBTQ VFW.
posted by snofoam at 3:15 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
ONG loquacious, what a fucking nightmare. I am so sorry that you and this beloved community institution are in this place.
A good restaurant owner should cancel tips, pay staff accordingly, AND TELL THIS LOUDLY TO THE PUBLIC. It's pure cowardice that prevents this.
No, it is a legacy of racism and also capitalism and other things that prevent this. I know it’s a very western idea that we should just all put on our big kid pants and individually solve all problems, but systemic problems do not get solved by individuals acting alone. That’s not how it works, no matter what novels and Hollywood tell us.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:58 AM on February 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
A good restaurant owner should cancel tips, pay staff accordingly, AND TELL THIS LOUDLY TO THE PUBLIC. It's pure cowardice that prevents this.
No, it is a legacy of racism and also capitalism and other things that prevent this. I know it’s a very western idea that we should just all put on our big kid pants and individually solve all problems, but systemic problems do not get solved by individuals acting alone. That’s not how it works, no matter what novels and Hollywood tell us.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:58 AM on February 9, 2021 [9 favorites]
Any argument that tipping is necessary or even favorable are easily refuted by pointing at the majority of countries with thriving hospitality industries that don't do this.
This. I've had plenty of great service in places where tipping is not a thing (and plenty of bad service here in the US, where I end up tipping the regular amount anyway because even people who are bad at their job need to eat). I'd love to see tipping go away for all of the structural reasons mentioned.
In pre-covid times I had to eat out frequently for work, sometimes in some pretty nice places. Something that I always watched for is whether the FOH staff were hired for ability (ie, people of a range of ages and races and genders, not everyone is conventionally beautiful, etc.) or are they exclusively young, conventionally-attractive women? I'm sure the second approach is best as a strategy to get higher tipping and more upselling, but personally I prefer the ambiance of a place where diversity is expressed through the staffing and people are committed to their craft. Tipping seems like something that puts pressure on a business to make those decisions on other factors, which is unfortunate.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
This. I've had plenty of great service in places where tipping is not a thing (and plenty of bad service here in the US, where I end up tipping the regular amount anyway because even people who are bad at their job need to eat). I'd love to see tipping go away for all of the structural reasons mentioned.
In pre-covid times I had to eat out frequently for work, sometimes in some pretty nice places. Something that I always watched for is whether the FOH staff were hired for ability (ie, people of a range of ages and races and genders, not everyone is conventionally beautiful, etc.) or are they exclusively young, conventionally-attractive women? I'm sure the second approach is best as a strategy to get higher tipping and more upselling, but personally I prefer the ambiance of a place where diversity is expressed through the staffing and people are committed to their craft. Tipping seems like something that puts pressure on a business to make those decisions on other factors, which is unfortunate.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Like others have said, if you don’t make minimum wage in tips, your employer has to make it up. I was given a talking to when I claimed what I earned when it was less than minimum wage.
Another thing that annoyed me was that my wage was $2.13 per hour even after the restaurant was closed. I didn’t have an opportunity to make any tips during that time but I was still only paid $2.13 to clean and prep for the next day.
I would work 60 hours in a pay period and after taxes, my check was about $20. In all practicality, my tips were my only wage. (This was before credit card tipping was much of a thing.) Also handling all that cash takes time and effort I don’t ever have to think about now.
I don’t hear anyone being against raising the sub minimum wage to the full minimum wage. It won’t fix everything, but it would be a start.
posted by Monday at 7:41 AM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
Another thing that annoyed me was that my wage was $2.13 per hour even after the restaurant was closed. I didn’t have an opportunity to make any tips during that time but I was still only paid $2.13 to clean and prep for the next day.
I would work 60 hours in a pay period and after taxes, my check was about $20. In all practicality, my tips were my only wage. (This was before credit card tipping was much of a thing.) Also handling all that cash takes time and effort I don’t ever have to think about now.
I don’t hear anyone being against raising the sub minimum wage to the full minimum wage. It won’t fix everything, but it would be a start.
posted by Monday at 7:41 AM on February 9, 2021 [2 favorites]
I work in a small business in a non-tipping industry, fitness, where it's traditional for people to come in at minimum wage and I guess I just wanted to add why I think regulation is so important and you can't just wait for people to fix their own small businesses.
I say this from the position of someone who has been supporting making a business more profitable explicitly to raise wages for everyone in our business.
So here's what happened to us.
We increased our business by volume, found some efficiencies, and increased prices some - towards the top of the local market. I don't want to overshare but where profit is concerned, this wasn't a case of the owner making money hand over fist from the business.
In our case while we could maybe increase classes a bit, in some programs we either had set ratios for staff or we had a physical room size limit. So our 'volume' was a bit constrained, just like tables in a restaurant.
We always had to increase business first, because we didn't want to be in a position of lowering people's pay or cutting benefits.
We learned that while our reputation and quality were both already pretty good and important, as a non-essential service every time we put ourselves more towards the top of the market, we lost some people. And sort of equally frustratingly, by increasing volume we also all had to work harder/smarter so that our service delivery was consistently worth the extra money.
In some cases customers did actually go down the street, pretty literally, and some of them eventually came back.
It worked ok, hopefully still will After All This, but it did make us more vulnerable to ups and downs locally (we had a plant close, etc.) because when you are charging more, even on the face of it, than your competitors you are the luxury choice, and people cut luxuries.
And what makes the people down the street hard to compete with?
That they are paying their staff bare minimum. Which here is $14.25.
So this is why when you're talking about small business with small margins and smaller staffs, there does need to be regulatory support. If you level off the base costs it helps, a lot - paid sick days, all of it.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:27 AM on February 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
I say this from the position of someone who has been supporting making a business more profitable explicitly to raise wages for everyone in our business.
So here's what happened to us.
We increased our business by volume, found some efficiencies, and increased prices some - towards the top of the local market. I don't want to overshare but where profit is concerned, this wasn't a case of the owner making money hand over fist from the business.
In our case while we could maybe increase classes a bit, in some programs we either had set ratios for staff or we had a physical room size limit. So our 'volume' was a bit constrained, just like tables in a restaurant.
We always had to increase business first, because we didn't want to be in a position of lowering people's pay or cutting benefits.
We learned that while our reputation and quality were both already pretty good and important, as a non-essential service every time we put ourselves more towards the top of the market, we lost some people. And sort of equally frustratingly, by increasing volume we also all had to work harder/smarter so that our service delivery was consistently worth the extra money.
In some cases customers did actually go down the street, pretty literally, and some of them eventually came back.
It worked ok, hopefully still will After All This, but it did make us more vulnerable to ups and downs locally (we had a plant close, etc.) because when you are charging more, even on the face of it, than your competitors you are the luxury choice, and people cut luxuries.
And what makes the people down the street hard to compete with?
That they are paying their staff bare minimum. Which here is $14.25.
So this is why when you're talking about small business with small margins and smaller staffs, there does need to be regulatory support. If you level off the base costs it helps, a lot - paid sick days, all of it.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:27 AM on February 9, 2021 [3 favorites]
Why should a restaurant "deserve" to be in business any more than a worker should deserve a reasonable wage? The position that a business is somehow magically a force for good is just capitalist mythology. If the workers don't benefit, maybe the business simply shouldn't exist.
In our economic system as it currently exists this means only the idle rich can ever ethically create a restaurant, or indeed any small business, since they're the only ones guaranteed to have perfect uninterrupted cash floats for lean times or slow weeks.
As people have articulated somewhat better above, the financing structures other high-level squeezes need to be addressed before we can high-handedly declare which businesses deserve to exist.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:47 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
In our economic system as it currently exists this means only the idle rich can ever ethically create a restaurant, or indeed any small business, since they're the only ones guaranteed to have perfect uninterrupted cash floats for lean times or slow weeks.
As people have articulated somewhat better above, the financing structures other high-level squeezes need to be addressed before we can high-handedly declare which businesses deserve to exist.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:47 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
As people have articulated somewhat better above, the financing structures other high-level squeezes need to be addressed before we can high-handedly declare which businesses deserve to exist.
If they are sticking it to the rich by existing, go for it. If they're staying in business by impoverishing their employees, sorry, no, they don't deserve to exist, not at that cost.
posted by maxwelton at 11:50 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
If they are sticking it to the rich by existing, go for it. If they're staying in business by impoverishing their employees, sorry, no, they don't deserve to exist, not at that cost.
posted by maxwelton at 11:50 AM on February 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Well all right then, all of restaurants and art galleries and music stores and small clothing shops and such is now the province of the wealthy and we plebes had better just give up all our dreams of having anything of our own and resign ourselves to being never more than a cog in a rich asshole's hobby business! That sure sounds dope, glad we settled it and decided not to reform the finance system or anything in a way that would allow small businesses to run ethically even without a fortune in capital.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:37 AM on February 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:37 AM on February 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
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