Trump Indictment #2: Justice Boogaloo
June 8, 2023 5:15 PM Subscribe

Trump indicted in classified docs probe.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock (489 comments total) 62 users marked this as a favorite

At the risk of sounding like a bad person, this plus Robertson's death is kind of making my week.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:20 PM on June 8, 2023 [134 favorites]

And now a circus probably unlike any we've ever seen.
posted by tclark at 5:20 PM on June 8, 2023 [9 favorites]

Wow!

Watching from North of 49 I never thought I would see this. The first president, ever, to be indicted.
When I stopped my series on TFG I said I would do one more if he were arrested, tried, and found guilty.
Hopefully it's time to start work on the final drawing of this loathsome beast.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 5:22 PM on June 8, 2023 [18 favorites]

Pretty telling that this news comes out only after I am already too full for the popcorn.
posted by srboisvert at 5:22 PM on June 8, 2023 [5 favorites]

I genuinely cannot stop laughing at the post he posted about this:

Page 1: The corrupt Biden Administration has informed my attorneys that I have been Indicted, seemingly over the Boxes Hoax, even though Joe Biden has 1850 Boxes at the University of Delaware, additional Boxes in Chinatown, D.C., with even more Boxes at the University of Pennsylvania, and documents strewn all over his garage floor where he parks his Corvette, and which is "secured" by only a garage door that is paper thin, and open much of the time.

Most people's trains of thought progress in at least a reasonably linear manner from point A to point B. His, instead, seems to bend like a nautilus curve, as we see a stunning progression, almost dril-like in its inanity, from "I have been indicted" to "complaining that Joe Biden keeps his garage door open," all in the space of a single grammatically valid sentence. Dude knows how to nest a clause.

Truly, a fascinating mind.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:22 PM on June 8, 2023 [95 favorites]

I heard cars honking outside my office window, and then some bells, and YAY.

I will take the win.
posted by suelac at 5:22 PM on June 8, 2023 [9 favorites]

What are the Florida laws regarding book deals for people who serve on grand juries?
posted by srboisvert at 5:24 PM on June 8, 2023

Reminder that we still have the third installment, Georgia, currently predicted for August.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:25 PM on June 8, 2023 [34 favorites]

I just wanted to tell you good luck. We're all counting all you.
posted by credulous at 5:25 PM on June 8, 2023 [90 favorites]

I guess flooding Mar-A-Lago's server room with pool water didn't help after all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by May Kasahara at 5:30 PM on June 8, 2023 [19 favorites]

Four, if Smith also brings Jan 6 charges.
posted by dragstroke at 5:32 PM on June 8, 2023 [6 favorites]

The fact that it got to actual indictments is a win. I’ll be hunting down something non-alcoholic and sparkling to toast the slow wheels of justice this weekend.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:33 PM on June 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

bUt WhY iSn'T mErRiCk GaRlAnD dOiNg AnYtHiNg??!!1!?

He didn't, this was the special counsel.
posted by tclark at 5:34 PM on June 8, 2023 [16 favorites]

Wouldn’t it be something if he was too busy in court to do any campaigning?
posted by KGMoney at 5:36 PM on June 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

Merrick Garland did appoint Jack Smith special counsel in the first place.
posted by BungaDunga at 5:37 PM on June 8, 2023 [21 favorites]

(and quite probably would have signed off on the indictment, though I'm not 100% certain on that)
posted by BungaDunga at 5:37 PM on June 8, 2023

Meanwhile in the northeast:
Oh what a day! What a lovely day!!
Even the sky matches.
posted by Ryvar at 5:38 PM on June 8, 2023 [5 favorites]

Y'all. It's been so long since I've been in one of these threads. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my hands. And cake? Isn't there something to do with baking cake?
posted by Mayor West at 5:40 PM on June 8, 2023 [32 favorites]

Isn't there something to do with baking cake?

You have to rotate the cake pan 3 times while it's baking and spit on it to assure the center gets baked properly.
posted by LionIndex at 5:42 PM on June 8, 2023 [29 favorites]

You have to rotate the cake pan 3 times while it's baking and spit on it to assure the center gets baked properly.

And curse! Curse and spit!
posted by nathan_teske at 5:43 PM on June 8, 2023 [16 favorites]

So we have the NYC indictment for falsifying records as a cover-up, he's now been indicted for the Mar-a-Lago classified document thing, Georgia's election tampering is looming in August, and then there's the possible January 6th parade.

I'm the biggest pessimist around when it comes to the idea of anything ever actually happening to TFG, but... is it starting to feel a little bit like the IRS is getting close to Capone?

Just a little?
posted by tzikeh at 5:43 PM on June 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

So my hypothetical twinge, if he can not attend the inauguration due to incarceration, will he be unable to pardon himself?
posted by sammyo at 5:49 PM on June 8, 2023 [8 favorites]

I learned about this on Tumblr, the way all breaking news is now disseminated on Tumblr.

I saw the supernatural guy say, "I love you," I saw the next panel started with "trump," and that was when I knew!

(Context, if you need it)
posted by meese at 5:56 PM on June 8, 2023 [17 favorites]

Today is my wife’s birthday!
posted by nickmark at 6:00 PM on June 8, 2023 [7 favorites]

Jesus he is a lazy criminal. First he wouldn't return the docs. Uhh, copy them and return the originals ignoramus. Then instead of moving them to a mini storage he kept them in his house after claiming his lawyer looked around and there were no more docs in his possession?

How did anyone so stupid and lazy ever get to be president.? Jesus.
posted by Keith Talent at 6:01 PM on June 8, 2023 [36 favorites]

How did anyone so stupid and lazy ever get to be president.? Jesus.

White supremacy is a hell of a drug.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:04 PM on June 8, 2023 [111 favorites]

We can't hold Trump voters accountable, unfortunately, but maybe we can get him into a prison cell, at least. I hope the full weight of justice is met upon him. Today is a start.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:08 PM on June 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

How did anyone so stupid and lazy ever get to be president.? Jesus.

The secret to failing up is to be rich, always be the boss, cultivate the press, and have lawyers on retainer.
posted by srboisvert at 6:11 PM on June 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

We can't hold Trump voters accountable, unfortunately, but maybe we can get him into a prison cell, at least. I hope the full weight of justice is met upon him. Today is a start.

The horror will be if he wins the primary anyway. Then the laboratories of democracy are in for a hell an empirical test.
posted by srboisvert at 6:13 PM on June 8, 2023 [10 favorites]

One comment deleted. Yes this is a big deal for a disliked public figure, but let's try to avoid the usual snark we've heard before so early in the comments, thanks.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:15 PM on June 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

So my hypothetical twinge, if he can not attend the inauguration due to incarceration, will he be unable to pardon himself?

Swearing in can be done anywhere. As long as TFG could arrange visitors he could be swore in.
posted by Mitheral at 6:15 PM on June 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

Yay! I've been waiting for a mega-thread.
posted by MtDewd at 6:17 PM on June 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

SURELY THIS.
posted by kerf at 6:20 PM on June 8, 2023 [47 favorites]

How did anyone so stupid and lazy ever get to be president.? Jesus.

“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” ― H.L. Mencken
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:23 PM on June 8, 2023 [118 favorites]

America, a country where ex-cons often can't vote but, theoretically, a convicted felon and prisoner can be President.
posted by dobbs at 6:24 PM on June 8, 2023 [25 favorites]

I can't believe this. Trump wrote a coherent, compelling sentence! It's like he understands the consequences of his actions.

What's next?

1. Someone sells Trump Pool Water. Someone else drinks it b/c QAnon.

2. Ben Carson murmurs dreamily about "reaping what you sow" and "bringing in the sheaves", before endorsing DeSantis.

3. DeSantis laughs so hard (not like a ROBOT, like a REALMAN2.0 GPT) that he dislocates his jaw.

4. Someone almost drowns/has an accident near the Pool of Doom within 6 months.
posted by Freecola at 6:27 PM on June 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

This, Pat Robertson and the Alabama voting rights case all in one day?

There really might be some deity adjacent force in the universe.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 6:28 PM on June 8, 2023 [16 favorites]

Heading over to Ask to find out that half of you will still cook with a Teflon Don after the Teflon starts flaking off.
posted by srboisvert at 6:28 PM on June 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

This has been my will for so long - hear me out - I think I just indicted someone with my mind.
posted by adept256 at 6:30 PM on June 8, 2023 [22 favorites]

Running for president from prison is not without precedent, although Debs only got 913,693 votes.
posted by Paragon at 6:30 PM on June 8, 2023 [8 favorites]

Uhh, copy them and return the originals ignoramus

But the originals are worth more to his handler/buyer

It is being said all the time, more and more
, only losers have copies
posted by eustatic at 6:31 PM on June 8, 2023 [8 favorites]

Republican primaries are going to be fun.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:34 PM on June 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

Laws are like cobwebs, which may catch small flies, but let wasps and hornets break through. -Swift

It doesn't escape me that fuckface got ahead of the news stating when and where he'd be arraigned. Then less than an hour after the indictment came the first fundraising email.

And his defense is equally predictable - shocked indignation and what-aboutisms. You will note that these are not legal defenses. When it comes to responding to actual evidence - he has nothing. He's damned by his own public statements, we already have the confession.

Throw another hamberder you fucking crybaby.
posted by adept256 at 6:35 PM on June 8, 2023 [9 favorites]

FACTS:

-HL Mencken never misses.

-Baking a cake makes sense for someone getting their just desserts.

-ALMOST NO ONE beats federal conspiracy charges. The government likes it when people do the wrong multiple times with a group of friends.

I'm literally setting an alarm for next week for the arrest day (PRE-JUNETEENTH sounds good): "In a subsequent post, Mr Trump said he had been summoned to appear at a federal courthouse in Miami on Tuesday, 13 June, at 3pm ET.

At that time, Mr Trump is expected to be placed under arrest and booked before appearing before a judge."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-arrest-indicted-arraignment-b2354314.html
posted by Freecola at 6:38 PM on June 8, 2023 [7 favorites]

Lock him up. Defendants charged with leaking classified documents shouldn’t get bail.
posted by interogative mood at 6:40 PM on June 8, 2023 [17 favorites]

Lock him up. Defendants charged with leaking classified documents shouldn’t get bail.

That's painting with way too broad a brush.

But Trump is a very real flight risk, so yes, lock him up.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:43 PM on June 8, 2023 [11 favorites]

Lock him up. Defendants charged with leaking classified documents shouldn’t get bail.

I don't disagree but it's far more likely that he either gets house arrest or nothing - and for a practical reason, which is that the Secret Service is charged with protecting ex-Presidents and they can't do that effectively if he's in jail.
posted by mightygodking at 6:44 PM on June 8, 2023 [4 favorites]

I hope the writer's guild strike doesn't delay the series premiere of Orange Is The New Orange.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 6:46 PM on June 8, 2023 [63 favorites]

I can't believe this. Trump wrote a coherent, compelling sentence!

He might need to practice serving complete sentences.
posted by adept256 at 6:46 PM on June 8, 2023 [123 favorites]

At the risk of sounding like a bad person, this plus Robertson's death is kind of making my week.

Was Fox News taking legal action against Tucker Carlsen and Elon Musk to try and muzzle Tucker until after the 2024 election also this week?
posted by Merus at 6:48 PM on June 8, 2023 [5 favorites]

I am not worried about how many votes he gets in November 2024.

I am concerned about how many 'independent state legislatures' will decide to award him their states' Electoral College votes in defiance of their voters' will.

If he gets in, it'll be all-singing all-dancing Stupid Keyser Soze starting on Jan 20 2024 12:01 pm.
posted by zaixfeep at 6:55 PM on June 8, 2023 [5 favorites]

> a single grammatically valid sentence.

Grammatically correct - truly the very, very best kind of correct.
posted by flug at 6:57 PM on June 8, 2023 [9 favorites]

Freecola: -Baking a cake makes sense for someone getting their just desserts.

Don't make me tap the sign.
posted by tzikeh at 7:26 PM on June 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

We just had the Reality Winner movie on HBO. Who should they get to play Reality Loser?
posted by emelenjr at 7:39 PM on June 8, 2023 [4 favorites]

The secret service can easily protect him while in protective custody in a federal prison cell. He won’t have visitors or contact with general population. They can watch the video surveillance monitors and do checks if needed.
posted by interogative mood at 7:46 PM on June 8, 2023 [13 favorites]

Fiat justitia ruat caelum
posted by kirkaracha at 7:49 PM on June 8, 2023 [8 favorites]

We just had the Reality Winner movie on HBO. Who should they get to play Reality Loser?
posted by emelenjr
Hmm, I wonder who's playing her brother Tony, her mom Emmy, her dad Oscar, and his parents Grammy and grandpa Hugo and uncle Cesar? And of course their beloved English bulldog Bafta...
_{i'll see myself out}
posted by zaixfeep at 7:53 PM on June 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

New Yorkers urged to remain vigilant after Trump rendered completely invisible.
posted by loquacious at 8:01 PM on June 8, 2023 [32 favorites]

I agree with interrogative mood in that the Secret Service should be able to do its job regardless of him being in jail. And I admit I want to see him in jail, but I have at the very least talked myself into believing that there's a good reason he should be held there rather than given house arrest (or nothing): He can't keep himself off his phone, can't keep his mouth shut, and potentially still has classified information to brag about/sell/whatever.
posted by Flunkie at 8:13 PM on June 8, 2023 [3 favorites]

Republican primaries are going to be fun.

They will not.
posted by chrchr at 8:17 PM on June 8, 2023 [56 favorites]

> I don't disagree but it's far more likely that he either gets house arrest or nothing - and for a practical reason, which is that the Secret Service is charged with protecting ex-Presidents and they can't do that effectively if he's in jail.

That sounds like the Secret Service's problem, not the judge setting bail's problem.
posted by NotAYakk at 8:19 PM on June 8, 2023 [16 favorites]

imho Trump is not really a flight risk. There's no way he thinks he'll go down for this- and if you don't think you're going to be convicted, you're not going to run. And there's no way he slips the Secret Service even if he tried.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:23 PM on June 8, 2023

Slips the Secret Service? I'm worried about the Secret Service covering for him.

He's shown how fast and loose he is with national security information; yes, he needs to be held without bail.
posted by stevis23 at 8:28 PM on June 8, 2023 [15 favorites]

This photo of the evidence laid out on the floor of his office is going to be in history textbooks. I mention this because there's a detail that's easy to overlook. On the left is a framed Time magazine cover, which is irrelevant. Until you look more closely: Knock knock... Who said the FBI doesn't have a sense of humor?
posted by adept256 at 8:35 PM on June 8, 2023 [10 favorites]

Couldn't happen to a nicer.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:48 PM on June 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

The corrupt Biden Administration has informed my attorneys that I have been Indicted, seemingly over the Boxes Hoax, even though Joe Biden has 1850 Boxes at the University of Delaware, additional Boxes in Chinatown, D.C., with even more Boxes at the University of Pennsylvania, and documents strewn all over his garage floor where he parks his Corvette, and which is "secured" by only a garage door that is paper thin, and open much of the time.

This is a Bulwer Lytton contest winner right here
posted by cubeb at 9:24 PM on June 8, 2023 [60 favorites]

The “garage door that is paper thin” reminds me of how he used to claim that Biden wore “the biggest mask you’ve ever seen.” The way he talks is oddly fascinating.
posted by kat518 at 9:49 PM on June 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

It was a dark and stormy indictment.
posted by riverlife at 9:52 PM on June 8, 2023 [29 favorites]

I'm worried about the Secret Service covering for him.

Secret Service erased texts from two-day period spanning Jan. 6 attack, watchdog says

Secret Service erased Jan. 6 texts after officials requested them, watchdog says

To the best of my recollection, I don't believe anyone in Trump's SS was ever held accountable for deleting federal records.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:19 PM on June 8, 2023 [45 favorites]

This photo of the evidence laid out on the floor of his office is going to be in history textbooks.
Who the fuck does that?
Trump does, that's who!

I read a fascinating story years ago about New York high society and how the wealthy, powerful, and connected in NYC never really have to pay for their crimes though there are the odd exceptions, like Leona Helmsley, and how people get away with things endlessly because the attend the same cocktail parties as the DA, etc, etc. They're all part of the same social circle.
Donald is so fascinatingly stupid that he did not understand that being president is a very different thing, indeed, and the crap he's pulled for decades as a slime ball pseudo developer in New York has a way of sticking and gaining traction in other places and there might actually be repercussions. Like taking pictures of documents labeled Top Secret in your possession; that's literally something you would see in the old Batman show it's so blindingly idiotic.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 10:35 PM on June 8, 2023 [12 favorites]

FWIW, I have always believed that the whole reason Trump ran for president in the first place was because the authorities were honing in on his Russian money laundering business.
posted by mumimor at 11:05 PM on June 8, 2023 [11 favorites]

FWIW, I have always believed that the whole reason Trump ran for president in the first place was because the authorities were honing in on his Russian money laundering business.

Even if they were, and even if he knew it, I doubt he had sufficient grasp on reality to consider himself in danger.

He's run several times, actually, but not in a serious way until 2016. I suspect that the thing that made it serious for him was Obama's 2011 White House Press Correspondent Dinner speech, with Trump in attendance, which in part had Obama giving a roast of Trump. The audience (and I) lapped it up, laughing with Obama and quite obviously at Trump.

I might be misremembering, but I think at one point there was even a joke that ended with something like "Call him what you want, but there's one thing that no one will ever call him: Mr. President."

The whole thing had to have been, from the Trumpian point of view, one of the most humiliating things he had ever endured. And when Trump perceives himself as under attack, his single-minded focus is always I'll show you.
posted by Flunkie at 11:23 PM on June 8, 2023 [28 favorites]

Robert Hanssen's cell in federal supermax got freed up the other day. Just sayin'!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:28 PM on June 8, 2023 [17 favorites]

Welp, fingers crossed. Not sure I have my money on “rule of law” in “rule of law versus republicans” but I hope at least after the last coup people have a fair idea of how this will play out.
posted by Artw at 11:34 PM on June 8, 2023 [2 favorites]

Trump is not intelligent, but he does know he is a criminal. He just feels he should be allowed to get away with his crimes because he is a rich, white man. He has said as much, more than once.
posted by mumimor at 11:40 PM on June 8, 2023 [25 favorites]

tbf there is pretty strong evidence supporting that position
posted by ryanrs at 1:34 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

The secret service can easily protect him while in protective custody in a federal prison cell.

Indeed. Not that it will ever happen, but preventing national security risks due to contact by other prisoners or foreign powers is one of the explicit purposes of ADX Florence.
posted by jaduncan at 2:18 AM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I for one want a prez who treats national security like he treats his vette.
posted by srboisvert at 3:49 AM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

(Skeet by Elle) Dear god, please let trump try to escape prosecution by fleeing the US in a yacht that is quickly met by 6-10 orcas who have just done cocaine.
posted by Wordshore at 4:07 AM on June 9, 2023 [55 favorites]

I have every idea that The Fucker will never see the inside of a jail cell (for this or anything else) unless he takes the Alcatraz tour. Assuming he's found guilty of this and everything else at the Federal level (because he IS guilty) he will still most likely win the primary (and thus the election) and be able to pardon himself, but even if he doesn't, then whatever bigoted asshole does win will have no choice but to pardon him. And if, by some miracle, Biden happens to fluke his way in, he's more likely than not to pull a Gerald Ford for the sake of "national unity".

The NY state charges are laughable. The Georgia ones (should they come) will be disappeared by the Republican Governor (if he wants to be able to spend another day of his life in Georgia, anyway).

And let's say that I'm wrong, and through some galactically unlikely series of events, he's held accountable for his crimes. Then what? You thought January 6th was bad? The Proud Boys et al spank themselves to sleep every night dreaming of a scenario where it's them against the "jack-booted thugs" and God-King Turd is being held "political prisoner" in Club Fed.

This will help him the same way the impeachments did, and the same way the NY bullshit did. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I am.
posted by Optamystic at 4:43 AM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

Assuming he's found guilty of this and everything else at the Federal level (because he IS guilty) he will still most likely win the primary (and thus the election) and be able to pardon himself, but if he doesn't, then whatever bigoted asshole does win will have no choice but to pardon him.

Any trial(s) won’t even begin until long after the 2024 election, largely due to the circus that the discovery period will be due to unending motions by defense, as well as arguments over wherw the trial(s) will be held. The jury selection might also be fraught, especially with the very real danger of Trump and/or his supporters discovering who they are.

If he’s elected president, though, it’s pretty obvious that all charges will eventually be dropped.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:54 AM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I have always believed that the whole reason Trump ran for president in the first place was because the authorities were honing in on his Russian money laundering business.

Agree in an indirect way. I'm of the belief that the money laundering was just the leverage the Russian handlers had on him to encourage him to run.
posted by Mitheral at 5:02 AM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]

Can't wait for him to do the perp walk as a Symphony in Orange
...
posted by aeshnid at 5:12 AM on June 9, 2023

This will help him the same way the impeachments did, and the same way the NY bullshit did. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

And what's the alternative? To do nothing? Because doing nothing in 2016 didn't stop Trump from becoming president in the first place. Doing nothing over the past four decades didn't stop Republicans from becoming increasingly authoritarian.

At least this is something. I much prefer a world where that asshole is actually indicted and dragged in front of a judge for the obvious crimes he committed than a world where everyone sits around clutching their pearls and making excuses. Trump is only untouchable if we allow him to be untouchable. We're only in this mess because there's a long line of cowards who refused to do anything about him. Trump is the biggest missing stair in the universe, and it's time for him to face the consequences.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:47 AM on June 9, 2023 [84 favorites]

(And when I say "doing nothing in 2016 didn't stop Trump", I'm specifically referring to the obvious connections with Russia and the reluctance of the DoJ to make anything public for fear of politicizing the race)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:49 AM on June 9, 2023 [12 favorites]

I have every idea that The Fucker will never see the inside of a jail cell (for this or anything else) unless he takes the Alcatraz tour. [....] This will help him the same way the impeachments did, and the same way the NY bullshit did. I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I am.
posted by Optamystic

....What's the opposite of "eponysterical"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:58 AM on June 9, 2023 [31 favorites]

Autoantonysterical!
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:06 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

Exclusive: Donald Trump admits on tape he didn’t declassify ‘secret information’

“As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,” Trump says, according to the transcript.

They've got him on willfully. He's absolutely fucked.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:11 AM on June 9, 2023 [13 favorites]

Googled "Autoantonysterical" (sounds like a real word to me). No results. Best jump on that domain while it's available!
posted by Optamystic at 6:24 AM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

Eponironical.
posted by Horkus at 6:42 AM on June 9, 2023 [14 favorites]

Oh FFS, notoriously corrupt Trump appointed judge Aileen Cannon is apparently going to get the case.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:11 AM on June 9, 2023 [16 favorites]

A lot of acquiantances are epic lib posting about this like "finally we got him" and I'm glad they can enjoy this but we've been through so many "no way he can get out of this one" moments since 2015 that I'm completely unable to think this will move the needle. Right now he could be literally dead and enough people would support him they'd nominate his corpse for the presidency.
posted by dis_integration at 7:15 AM on June 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

Oh FFS, notoriously corrupt Trump appointed judge Aileen Cannon is apparently going to get the case.

Of COURSE she fucking is.
posted by Optamystic at 7:29 AM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

I've been really glad to see other GOP candidates start to rag on the Orange Menace directly about his lies and fraud (etc). As much as I wish the general public would have cared about getting and believing it from the media, which never really happened, I think things are finally ripe for the primary to expose the rot at the core of the GOP.
posted by Dashy at 7:31 AM on June 9, 2023

How does that judge not immediately recuse herself?

Oh, right, Republicans. I forgot.
posted by Farce_First at 7:31 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

Oh FFS, notoriously corrupt Trump appointed judge Aileen Cannon is apparently going to get the case.

Personal question, who assigns the judges? Cause this makes no sense at all.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:34 AM on June 9, 2023

That article mentions that there's Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart's name also on the docket, he signed the search warrant of Mar-A-Lago. So it seems they've given her a babysitter for this case.
posted by hippybear at 7:35 AM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Personal question, who assigns the judges? Cause this makes no sense at all.

From the article:

Judges in most federal cases are assigned at random. But the apparent nods to Cannon and Reinhart on the summons for Trump might actually reflect the fact that both have already played roles in the proceedings, experts said.

"If the case is being overseen by the same district and magistrate judges, that means the court likely considered the indictment to be 'related' to the search warrant and intentionally assigned it to those judges," former senior Justice Department national security official Brandon Van Grack told ABC News.

posted by hippybear at 7:36 AM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

"If the case is being overseen by the same district and magistrate judges, that means the court likely considered the indictment to be 'related' to the search warrant and intentionally assigned it to those judges,"

I see the court is both playing it by the book and summarily ignoring that she made comically and objectively terrible rulings the first time. Even hard-line conservatives were like yeah seems like she kinda sucks at her job.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:42 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

He'd never flee the country since he doesn't think he's done anything wrong, but would it be so bad for the car taking him to be arraigned, to stop for a "security guard potty break" at the airport, right next to where there's a trump learjet idling on the runway, with clearance to fly into international airspace and not come back? If he can't get back IN without being arrested immediately, he'll be a lot less of a problem, and he can continue to tweet or bloot or plonk or whatever microblogging platform he wants to be incoherent on from a fancy room in Saudi Arabia but he just can't actually DO anything in the US.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:46 AM on June 9, 2023

Oh FFS, notoriously corrupt Trump appointed judge Aileen Cannon is apparently going to get the case.

Oh well maybe one of the other ones will come to something, might as well give up on this one now.
posted by Artw at 7:48 AM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

I've been really glad to see other GOP candidates start to rag on the Orange Menace directly about his lies and fraud

As far as I've seen, just Asa Hutchinson and Chris Christie (and I don't think either of them have a chance, what with Asa running as a sensible adult and Christie working on a tight five for a Trump roast)--the rest of them not so much.
posted by box at 7:48 AM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

From last September in WaPo A Thorough Rebuke of Aileen Cannon's Pro-Trump Order (Analysis of higher court judgment, not an opinion article)

“Here, the district court concluded that [Trump] did not show that the United States acted in callous disregard of his constitutional rights. No party contests the district court’s finding in this regard,” the judges write. “The absence of this ‘indispensab[le]’ factor … is reason enough to conclude that the district court abused its discretion in exercising equitable jurisdiction here.”
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:51 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

Well, "I am an innocent man" is up there with "I am not a crook" for memorably unconvincing defenses, though still a distant second.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 8:28 AM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

he will still most likely win the primary (and thus the election)

WTAF?
posted by NorthernLite at 8:30 AM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

"The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand."
posted by hydropsyche at 8:39 AM on June 9, 2023 [9 favorites]

Someone needs to change their username to PessaMystic. I get the reality check, but can we not be gratuitously negative?
posted by blue shadows at 8:41 AM on June 9, 2023 [12 favorites]

MetaFilter: gratuitously negative
posted by zengargoyle at 9:05 AM on June 9, 2023 [9 favorites]

he will still most likely win the primary (and thus the election)

WTAF?

Both of these are a real possibility. The fed has been waging war on workers. No one can afford a home, wages are stagnating while inflation has eroded so much purchasing power, and the Dems are looking to startup student loan payments.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:22 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

Trump aide Walt Nauta indicted in classified documents case
posted by mcdoublewide at 9:28 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm all out of surely thises
posted by farlukar at 9:37 AM on June 9, 2023 [9 favorites]

Two of his lawyers resigned after the Miami indictment.

Fortunately, he still has the guy who's defending him in New York state court about falsifying business records related to the Stormy Daniels payoff.
posted by box at 9:44 AM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

He’ll win the primary, the election will be a fight. He’ll get utterly trounced if it’s anything like a normal election but there’s very little hope of that, the GOP, their operatives, elements of the media and the courts are all going to be corrupt as fuck on an unheard of scale.

Winning the election is basically his legal case and he will get a lot of help with it and I would not rule it out or downplay the likely splash damage.
posted by Artw at 9:46 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

The fed has been waging war on workers. No one can afford a home, wages are stagnating while inflation has eroded so much purchasing power, and the Dems are looking to startup student loan payments.

on the other hand, republicans are actually the ones intent on screwing people over on student loans, they want to double down on unpopular abortion bans, and they seem committed to culture war nonsense that only resonates with their deeply weird base.

like even the midterms were unbelievably favorable for the democrats. i don't see how throwing multiple state and federal indictments at the guy who lost last time translates to ineluctable republican victory.
posted by logicpunk at 9:54 AM on June 9, 2023 [22 favorites]

Winning the election is basically his legal case and he will get a lot of help with it and I would not rule it out or downplay the likely splash damage.

He just had two more lawyers quit on him today, so maybe let's dial back the "he's going to win" catastrophizing just a scoche?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:58 AM on June 9, 2023 [29 favorites]

2024 will be the first national election since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. Unless women are over having a fundamental right taken away, I suspect that may be a factor.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:00 AM on June 9, 2023 [42 favorites]

Two of his lawyers resigned after the Miami indictment.

Serious question... Trump has a well-documented history of ignoring the advice of his lawyers, and then refusing to pay them. How does he get anyone to represent him any more?
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 10:05 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

> How does he get anyone to represent him any more?

it's like playing the lottery. there's always a few people that are sure THEY'RE gonna be the one to win big.
posted by Clowder of bats at 10:07 AM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Ooooh, I just had a really fun thought.

So - Trump has been losing lawyers. We're now at the point where Todd Blanche, the guy representing him in the NY State Stormy Daniels case, is now going to do double-duty and represent him in the federal classified documents case, and Tish James' NY State Trump Org Mega-Case is still looming. (It's a civil suit, so there's no indictment - but it's a VERY, VERY THOROUGH business case against the entire family and the entire business enterprise, and it's going to start going to trial in a few months.)

So - suppose one of those trials doesn't go according to plan or is bumpier than everyone thought. Suppose Trump fires Blanche, or Blanche just pulls the "fuck this shit, I'm out" card. And then supposing finding another lawyer is difficult.

And so....what if Trump decides to represent himself?

Think about it. He's arrogant enough to think he could probably handle it at this point, and he could also probably talk himself into doing it by thinking "well, hell, I was president, that's probably enough legal training, right?"

....Dude, if that actually happened I WOULD WATCH THAT TRIAL ON PAY-PER-VIEW.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:09 AM on June 9, 2023 [16 favorites]

he will still most likely win the primary (and thus the election)

What's the french translation for "Vote for the milquetoast white guy and not the fascist crook"?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:09 AM on June 9, 2023

What's the french translation for "Vote for the milquetoast white guy and not the fascist crook"?

That was the last French election.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:13 AM on June 9, 2023 [27 favorites]

it's like playing the lottery. there's always a few people that are sure THEY'RE gonna be the one to win big.

Lindsay:
Well, did it work for those people?

Tobias:
No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:46 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

Serious question... Trump has a well-documented history of ignoring the advice of his lawyers, and then refusing to pay them. How does he get anyone to represent him any more?

At least some of the high-profile lawyers this year have required payment up-front because of that history of not paying bills. I'm guessing the second-tier ones can't get away with that, though, so are likely trying to front-load their billing so they are covered if down the road they get stiffed.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:46 AM on June 9, 2023

that Truth Social post is magnificent, it's like a direct quote from a Charles Portis novel
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:47 AM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

BBC news just announced that the indictment was just unsealed, they'll be going through it live here.

(I have the BBC news app on my work phone, and am developing a Pavlovian response to its alert noise lately.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:49 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

OH WAIT CNN already has it and posted it....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:49 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

WaPo's live coverage offers this quote:

“Mr. Trump brought these charges upon himself by not only taking classified documents, but by refusing to simply return them when given numerous opportunities to do so. These actions are serious and if proven, would be consistent with his other actions offensive to the national interest such as withholding defensive weapons from Ukraine for political reasons and failing to defend the Capitol from violent attack and insurrection.”
posted by box at 11:02 AM on June 9, 2023 [14 favorites]

Also from WaPo:

The 49-page indictment against former president Donald Trump says that when he was president, he kept boxes containing papers about “defense and weapons capabilities of both the United States and foreign countries; United States nuclear programs; potential vulnerabilities of the United States and its allies to military attack; and plans for possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:10 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

Y'all, you wanna read the indictment. They REALLY get into it with how badly things were stored and how badly they were mishandled, complete with PICTURES.

Like there's a picture of a bunch of boxes of files sitting on a stage in the Mar-a-Lago club's ballroom, just.....SITTING there. They quote text messages between Mar-a-Lago staffers asking each other where to move boxes around to make space for staff. They quote two instances where he showed classified info to unauthorized people, and in one case he tried to protect it by simply telling the person he was showing it to not to stand too close. And they also discuss the chaos that went down after the subpoena, and at one point one of Trump's lawyers testified that they talked about what to do with the contents of one folder, and here's what the lawyer said:

He made a motion as though - well, okay, why don't you take them with you to your hotel room and if there's anything really bad in there, like you know, pluck it out. That was the motion he made.

DUDE.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:11 AM on June 9, 2023 [25 favorites]

NPR is reporting that Jim Trusty and John Rowley have resigned as T's lawyers.
posted by hippybear at 11:16 AM on June 9, 2023 [13 favorites]

HE WAS STORING BOXES OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS IN HIS SHOWER FOR FUCK'S SAKE
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:24 AM on June 9, 2023 [18 favorites]

This photo of the evidence laid out on the floor of his office is going to be in history textbooks.
Who the fuck does that?
Trump does, that's who!

Federal agents arrayed classified materials on a floor at former President Donald J. Trump’s Florida residence for a photograph as a standard part of their evidence-gathering procedures. (New York Times gift link)

The photo of classified documents at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort, annotated (Washington Post gift link)

Dissecting 7 key pieces of the Mar-a-Lago photo

An entirely reasonable debunk.

Fortunately they have Trump on tape saying essentially "Hey check out these still classified documents. I am so badass I am breaking the law showing you!" so the gist of the debunked material, that Trump is a spectacularly idiotic criminal, still stands.
posted by srboisvert at 11:26 AM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

HE WAS STORING BOXES OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS IN HIS SHOWER FOR FUCK'S SAKE

Look, he probably thought it was a clean room, and it would keep the documents beautifully clean and safe, better than any other room in the house. Except maybe in the ballroom, which is where he stores the papers that show what big balls he has.
posted by Inkslinger at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2023 [15 favorites]

His body man goes into a suite bathroom where the boxes are kept and finds them knocked over with documents spilled out. Some had security classification warnings. He also took 15 boxes (I think that's what it said" to Bedminster, a couple days before. Tinfoil hat? The LIV golf tournament was being held there at the time.
posted by zerobyproxy at 11:29 AM on June 9, 2023 [18 favorites]

From CNN: "In May, Trump allegedly directed that a storage room, which was accessible from several outside entrances — some of which were often kept open — be cleaned out for his boxes. The next month, more than 80 boxes were moved into the storage room."

It is hilarious how close in content this is to TFG's tweet about Biden's garage door.
posted by nushustu at 11:29 AM on June 9, 2023 [12 favorites]

He also took 15 boxes (I think that's what it said" to Bedminster, a couple days before. Tinfoil hat? The LIV golf tournament was being held there at the time.

HOLY SHIT.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:30 AM on June 9, 2023 [12 favorites]

From page 14 of the indictment:

"NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2, “I opened the door and found this…” NAUTA also attached two photographs he took of the spill. Trump Employee 2 replied, “Oh no oh no,” and “I’m sorry potus had my phone.” One of the photographs NAUTA texted to Trump Employee 2 is depicted below with visible classified information redacted."
posted by mcdoublewide at 11:31 AM on June 9, 2023

"Today is indeed a dark day for the United States of America.

It is unconscionable for a President to indict the leading candidate opposing him. Joe Biden kept classified documents for decades.

I, and every American who believes in the rule of law, stand with President Trump against this grave injustice. House Republicans will hold this brazen weaponization of power accountable."

From Speaker McCarthy.

GOP, b. March 20, 1854, d. June 9, 2023 (well, it probably died sometime in 2016, but it's definitely gone now).
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:31 AM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

He also took 15 boxes (I think that's what it said" to Bedminster, a couple days before. Tinfoil hat? The LIV golf tournament was being held there at the time.

I wrote this in text to a couple friends a few days ago. We were discussing the LIV/PGA merger but this popped into my head and wouldn't leave:
Don't be surprised if the Orange Julius Espionage Act indictment that appears to maybe possibly be showing up soon includes passing secrets to the Saudis JUST SAYIN
posted by mcstayinskool at 11:31 AM on June 9, 2023 [12 favorites]

this was also around the time he met with victor orban.
posted by Clowder of bats at 11:37 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

The thing keeping me from despairing at the Aileen Cannon development is that Jack Smith had to know there was a likelihood she'd be assigned to the case, given her previous involvement, and yet he chose to bring the charges in Florida instead of DC. Maybe he's confident the 11th Circuit will let him request a different judge given how thoroughly they smacked her down last time.
posted by saturday_morning at 11:41 AM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

Yeah, and it puts Putin's objectively stupid idea of attacking Ukraine into a new perspective. Dog knows what the Russians know now?
posted by mumimor at 11:42 AM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

The Manchurian Cantaloupe
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 11:56 AM on June 9, 2023 [40 favorites]

OJ has some thoughts and advice!
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:00 PM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

I would not be shocked if his deceased ex-wife's funeral, hastily buried at Bedminster IIRC during as the documents fiasco played out, was involved.

Something like cremating the body, filling the coffin with documents and baggy of dust, letting Kushner's $2billion clear, then handing the documents off. Burial performed cheaply (small flat stone) and everyone wipes their hands of it.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:04 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

The writers are holding the Ivana exhumation order for the season cliffhanger
posted by Rumple at 12:07 PM on June 9, 2023 [24 favorites]

OJ has some thoughts and advice!

I CANNOT STOP LAUGHING
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:12 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

The NYT is annotating the indictment. (gift link)
posted by Rumple at 12:16 PM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

The Manchurian Cantaloupe

"Muscovian", surely?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:17 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

And in a good day to bury good news, Boris Johnson has gone
posted by BigCalm at 12:24 PM on June 9, 2023 [24 favorites]

37? (in a row?!?)

Trump is facing 37 felony charges related to the mishandling of classified documents according to an indictment unsealed Friday, June 9, 2023.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:25 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

How does he get anyone to represent him any more?

I asked that question of a lawyer I know, someone who currently does family law mediation but has past experience as a criminal defense attorney. He said he'd represent TFG, but he'd demand full payment up front. In gold.
posted by orange swan at 12:33 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

And in a good day to bury good news, Boris Johnson has gone

I'm starting to think that thing I read about Pat Robertson and a Hellmouth may be right.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:33 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

I'm starting to think that thing I read about Pat Robertson and a Hellmouth may be right.

Huh. I've thought it was since Benedict finally died and we no longer have two living Popes that the Universe is finally healing.
posted by hippybear at 12:35 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

The indictment is absolutely nuts. They have Trump on tape showing a room full of people a classified document and saying, "As president, I could have declassified it. Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret."

My favorite is where he shows another guy a classified document and is talking about how it's classified - and then adds "so then maybe don't stand too close in that case" or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:37 PM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

Here's what you call the "arc of history":

Infamous shitpile Roy Cohn prosecutes the Rosenbergs for violating the Espionage Act with relation to nuclear secrets.
The Rosenbergs are conviced and executed.
Cohn, after a long career of shitpiling, eventually becomes Trump's legal mentor, including teaching him the "ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ADMIT NOTHING" approach.
Trump somehow fails forward into the Presidency.
Trump leaves office and steals classified documents in violation of the Espionage Act...
...including, we learned today hanging on to documents containing nuclear secrets.

So, you know, fingers crossed for this special guy...
posted by The Tensor at 12:51 PM on June 9, 2023 [41 favorites]

I mean this looks bad right ? Like reaaaally bad, I can't help thinking they announced the indictments, waited for the inevitable republican response and then released the details
posted by BigCalm at 12:54 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

photos of the boxes in the bathroom are gold

(the toilet, alas is not)
posted by joeyh at 12:55 PM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

Really enjoying all of the public statements he made in 2016 about the importance of respecting and handling classified information, where he thought he was throwing shade on Hillary. And the 2018 update to FISA statute to increase the penalty for unauthorized removal and retention from 1 year to 5 years, where he thought he could just lock her up and throw away the key.

Revenge, served cold.
posted by Dashy at 1:05 PM on June 9, 2023 [15 favorites]

405 years of potential prison time! (that's the max for all counts, so his worst day)
posted by exlotuseater at 1:05 PM on June 9, 2023

Robert Costa (threadreader), about Trump, docs, and Mark Milley
posted by box at 1:06 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

so his worst day

I have my fingers crossed for a later treason charge and the subsequent possible capital punishment.
posted by hippybear at 1:12 PM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

Also tinfoil hat? His body man was to exchange the lids of the boxes because they had too much writing on them. Trying to parse that one. What writing was on the lids of those boxes? Shorthand for what was in them? A word that would designate that this box, out of the many, had the information that they were looking for? A seemingly nothing element, but, it raised my eyebrows.
posted by zerobyproxy at 1:16 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

The Trump Classified Documents Indictment, Annotated (New York Times gift link)
posted by kirkaracha at 1:17 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

pp. 13–14 of the indictment:

On December 7, 2021, NAUTA found several of TRUMP's boxes fallen and their contents spilled onto the floor of the Storage Room, including a document marked "SECRET//REL TO US, FVEY," which denoted that the information in the document was releasable only to the Five Eyes intelligence alliance consisting of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. NAUTA texted Trump Employee 2, "I opened the door and I found this..." NAUTA also attached two photographs he took of the spill [one of which is in the indictment]. Trump Employee 2 replied, "Oh no oh no," and "I'm sorry potus had my phone."

posted by kirkaracha at 1:25 PM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

Is this punishable by death? (not a death penalty supporter, but I'd be willing to make an exception so we never need to hear his name in the news again)
posted by kokaku at 1:25 PM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

HE WAS STORING BOXES OF CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS IN HIS SHOWER FOR FUCK'S SAKE

In a bathroom with the tackiest of all tacky little chandeliers.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:29 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

i feel like the death penalty would just end up with public schools in dark red areas named after him
posted by Clowder of bats at 1:31 PM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

Jack Smith has made a public statement (msnbc)

This is the first time I've heard him speak, though he has no new information.
posted by adept256 at 1:33 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

i feel like the death penalty would just end up with public schools in dark red areas named after him

That's what happened when the US let all the Confederate traitors off the hook. Let's try it the other way and see how it turns out.
posted by The Tensor at 1:35 PM on June 9, 2023 [32 favorites]

That Jack Smith clip really humanized him for me. He'd just been, like, maybe two different photos for me up until now.
posted by hippybear at 1:38 PM on June 9, 2023

That's what happened when the US let all the Confederate traitors off the hook. Let's try it the other way and see how it turns out.

America could have turned out much differently if Nixon hadn't been pardoned, imo.
posted by zerobyproxy at 1:38 PM on June 9, 2023 [23 favorites]

If they amend the changes to treason then it is punishable by death. I doubt that will happen; but if it isn’t impossible. Any other person charged with these offenses and with the kind of evidence would be sitting in a cell with all their assets frozen.

I think McCarthy and a few others probably put out his statement before seeing the indictment. I wonder if any Republicans will flip over the weekend or on the next few days as it starts to sink in.
posted by interogative mood at 1:39 PM on June 9, 2023

America could have turned out much differently if Nixon hadn't been pardoned, imo.

Or if RFK hadn't been shot.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:40 PM on June 9, 2023 [15 favorites]

America could have turned out much differently if Nixon hadn't been pardoned, imo.

Well, there was actual Nazi infiltration of our government during WWII that was brought to a spectacularly failed trial, and if that had some to fruition that might have changed things a lot, too.

We, as a nation, are entirely Not Good at prosecuting people in our government who are doing nefarious things against our country.
posted by hippybear at 1:41 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

I have a stupid question: why did Trump try to convince Corcoran to destroy the classified documents instead of returning them to NARA? Either way Trump doesn't get to use them, and (so far as I know) they didn't contain evidence damaging to him.

Was it purely "they're mine and if I can't have them nobody will"? It just seems so short-sighted, even for Trump.

Also, do we know if any photocopies or scans were made before they were returned? If I were DOJ, I would be worried about that.
posted by suelac at 1:52 PM on June 9, 2023

If they amend the changes to treason then it is punishable by death.

The death penalty is right there in the Espionage Act. He's currently charged under §793(e) ("Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information"). All they'd need to do is find evidence that he violated §794 ("Gathering or delivering defense information to aid foreign government") for the death penalty to be in play. The Rosenbergs were executed on that basis for delivering nuclear secrets to the Soviet Union (which the US was not at war with).
posted by The Tensor at 1:57 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

I think it would be great if everyone, especially those with heavily Republican Congressional delegations, called their Senators and Representative to ask that they public condemn attempts to undermine federal grand jury decisions and affirm that nobody in America is above the law.
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:12 PM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

He also took 15 boxes (I think that's what it said" to Bedminster, a couple days before. Tinfoil hat? The LIV golf tournament was being held there at the time.

I don't think you need to tinfoil hat anything; I have long thought a big part of why Trumpy took these documents was to sell access.
posted by nubs at 2:15 PM on June 9, 2023 [9 favorites]

I think McCarthy and a few others probably put out his statement before seeing the indictment. I wonder if any Republicans will flip over the weekend or on the next few days as it starts to sink in.

Any Republican politician who condemns Trump in 2023 will 100% lose their seat in 2024 (or in their next election, if their term is longer). Trumpism _IS_ the party platform that the majority of GOP voters want. The members of Congress know this. They are each making the judgement call of whether they would prefer to keep their integrity or their position of power.

There might be 3 current GOP members of congress who would choose integrity under this circumstance. There are probably zero.
posted by toxic at 2:15 PM on June 9, 2023 [15 favorites]

Mike Pence's answers about how nobody is above the law but "the country needs to find a way beyond this" and watching his brain short circuit while he tries to square those two things during his town hall were pretty spectacular.
posted by hippybear at 2:16 PM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

There might be 3 current GOP members of congress who would choose integrity under this circumstance.

Kissinger and Cheney seemed to be the only two in the last round.
posted by hippybear at 2:17 PM on June 9, 2023

The thing keeping me from despairing at the Aileen Cannon development is that Jack Smith had to know there was a likelihood she'd be assigned to the case, given her previous involvement, and yet he chose to bring the charges in Florida instead of DC. Maybe he's confident the 11th Circuit will let him request a different judge given how thoroughly they smacked her down last time.

"Rule 29 motion granted."
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:36 PM on June 9, 2023

In addition to being legitimately evil, criminally greedy, treasonous, etc—I mean, I'm not saying this to excuse or diminish anything—I think on some level this dude is also clearly just a hoarder with enough money and people around him to prevent actual filth and decay. There's video of offices he worked in with piles and piles of trinkets and nonsense along every wall.

I fully expect he sold Top Secret originals stained with mustard.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:42 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

Boris Johnson just rage quit parliament. I assume the Illuminati decided it’s time for spring cleaning. Pat Robertson, Trump, Boris. Whose next.
posted by interogative mood at 2:43 PM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

Mike Pence's answers about how nobody is above the law

This is from his CNN town hall. Here's the transcript:

PENCE:
I think now more than ever we ought to be finding ways we could actually come together and this kind of this kind of action by the Department of Justice I think would only fuel further division in the country. Let me also say I think it would also send a terrible message to The Wider world. I mean we're the emblem of democracy, we're the symbol of Justice in the world and the serious matter which has already happened once in New York. Indicting a former president of the United States sends a terrible message to the world. I hope the doj thinks better of it and resolves these issues without an indictment

BASH:
Sir, I just want to clarify what you're saying is that if they believe he committed a crime they should not go forward with an indictment. You just talked before about committing to the rule of law.

PENCE:
Let me be clear that no one's above the law. Okay. But with regard to the unique circumstances here - and look I - those classified - I had no business having classified documents in my residence, and I took full responsibility for it. President Biden had no business having them in his residence from when he was vice president as well, and the same with former president Trump. But I would just hope that there would be a way for them to move forward without the dramatic and drastic and divisive step of indicting a former president of the United States. We've got to find a way to move our country forward and and restore confidence in equal treatment under the law in this country we really do.

It's like a moebius strip of logic. Let me be clear that no one's above the law. Okay. But ... I have whiplash.

As for equal treatment under the law - that's gone, he's received extremely favorable treatment. Anyone else would be in prison already.
posted by adept256 at 2:46 PM on June 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

Boris' rage quit contains the phrase "for now" which tells me he's not gone, he's just taking pouty little break.
posted by hippybear at 2:46 PM on June 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

Mitt Romney, a multimillionaire who could probably keep getting elected to the Senate in Utah for the rest of his natural life

…unless he gets primaried.

Utah Republicans have really warmed up to 45ism these last several years. Hate, greed, and lechery are all features, not bugs.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad Romney said something, but he did so at his peril. His party is too far gone, and if a fascist kook with the right dogwhistles challenges him, his statewide approval rating won’t matter.
posted by armeowda at 2:57 PM on June 9, 2023

Mitt Romney, a multimillionaire who could probably keep getting elected to the Senate in Utah for the rest of his natural life, has the strongest take on the indictment I've seen from a sitting Republican congressperson.

I believe that statement was released before we had the text of the indictment? Anything from Republicans who have seen the indictment?
posted by mr_roboto at 3:00 PM on June 9, 2023

Boris' rage quit contains the phrase "for now" which tells me he's not gone, he's just taking pouty little break.

Basically sitting out an incoming huge electoral loss, then will then come back painting everyone else as responsible.

Are the British public dumb enough to accept him again? Well, they voted for brexit.
posted by Artw at 3:00 PM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

I mean we're the emblem of democracy, we're the symbol of Justice in the world and the serious matter which has already happened once in New York. Indicting a former president of the United States sends a terrible message to the world

Actually, doesn't it demonstrate exactly what you are talking about when you call the nation a symbol of justice? I still don't understand why the media doesn't call out these numpty heads for their contradictory talking points.
posted by nubs at 3:01 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

Photos of the boxes in the bathroom are gold

Uncle Sam’s Bathroom Reader
posted by Servo5678 at 3:02 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

Electing a habitual criminal sent a terrible message to the world, this is just follow up.
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

Man, that boxes-in-the-bathroom pic. Crystal! Marble! Gilt! But the hardware's flimsy, and the window frame's from a defunct hostel.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:03 PM on June 9, 2023 [10 favorites]

I’m glad Romney said something, but he did so at his peril.

Romney is a mealy mouthed feckless shitbird who'll strut and fret and preen in whatever way he thinks will get him power.
posted by nubs at 3:09 PM on June 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

There isn’t any peril for Mitt Romney. If he loses his Senate seat and he’s still a billionaire. He still gets to do whatever he wants.
posted by interogative mood at 3:12 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

All the man had to do was to keep his ego in check this much. And I'm holding my fingers very close together as I type that.

Even in his addled state, the contents of Trump's brain alone would be worth uncountable fortunes on the world market. What he saw, who said what, who was there, the general gist of things if not the finest details of such. And he could certainly find ways to parlay that into a far safer post-Presidency side hustle. Follow the black-letter rules and skirt them quietly, privately and profitably on the sly.

But Trump's entire career has been based upon a central principle: I can do anything I want. Rules do not apply to me.

A bill he doesn't want to pay? He doesn't pay it. A woman he wants? He gets grabby, or worse. A business that fails, a vision that flops, getting caught in a lie or a scheme or an outright criminal conspiracy? Follow the Gingrich mantra -- attack, attack, project, project, always attack -- and brush away the consequences. Throw lawyers at it, then stiff the lawyers. Skate through life. Throw out red meat to the rubes to fund the next scheme.

It wouldn't have been enough for Trump to simply pass on secrets in a non-physical way. He heard "you can't take those with you" and thought to himself, That means I have to take them with me. He had to show off what he'd done, a pathological need to drop hints and clues to others, as if someone had wedged the Riddler's brain into the Penguin's body. People had to know that he was above scrutiny, above the law, above the government. He was TRUMP. He could do anything.

Well... perhaps not.
posted by delfin at 3:19 PM on June 9, 2023 [24 favorites]

I'd like to remind everyone that just after the election of 2020, by November 6th, Trump fired the administrator of the National Nuclear Security Administration.

And on November 8th, I commented:

I'm pretty convinced that some advanced American nuclear armaments are going to be showing up on the arch-villain equivalent of Ebay sometime soon.

It's amazing how unsubtle this all was.
posted by MrVisible at 3:24 PM on June 9, 2023 [32 favorites]

There isn’t any peril for Mitt Romney

If you’ll read the rest of my comment, I’m referring to his Senate seat, not his mansions.
posted by armeowda at 3:25 PM on June 9, 2023

Mitt Romney, a multimillionaire who could probably keep getting elected to the Senate in Utah for the rest of his natural life, has the strongest take on the indictment I've seen from a sitting Republican congressperson.

Romney has always been an ultra-right shithead with zero interest in anything but his own self-interests, but the GoP has moved so far to the right in the last few years that nowadays he almost looks like a liberal by comparison.
posted by essexjan at 3:28 PM on June 9, 2023 [18 favorites]

My main thought on this, and really most of the cases against Trump, is how the hell one finds an impartial jury to deal with it all. I mean I've gotten out of jury duty twice out of pure honesty, but it also tells me you can get pretty far into selection by just keeping quiet.

I don't know how they keep the Trump cultists out of the jury and get twelve people who will convict—fairly, of course, but I'm asserting conviction would be fair because god damn, yo. I can only assume Jack Smith's office has gamed this out, just like they must have gamed out the issue with Cannon as judge, because these are obvious hurdles... but I'd love to know how.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:36 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Trump and Trumpism don’t have a good record with juries. So far the legal system has successfully empaneled two grand juries that voted the indict Trump. We also had a jury in the E. Jean Carroll case vote against Trump, and dozens of juries in Jan. 6 cases have voted to convict.
posted by chrchr at 3:49 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

For millions of years celebrities have had the right to grope classified documents...
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:59 PM on June 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Make Prison Great Again
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 4:04 PM on June 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

I'm starting to think that thing I read about Pat Robertson and a Hellmouth may be right.

Huh. I've thought it was since Benedict finally died and we no longer have two living Popes that the Universe is finally healing.

On the other hand, Kissinger somehow made it to 100 last month, so some hell mouth somewhere is definitely still open.
posted by susiswimmer at 4:43 PM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

Mitt Romney, a multimillionaire who could probably keep getting elected to the Senate in Utah for the rest of his natural life, has the strongest take on the indictment I've seen from a sitting Republican congressperson.

Definitely a stronger and more courageous take from Mitt than when he asked the same defendant for a job in the administration.

I kid, of course, but all Republicans everywhere can go fly a kite at this point. Right-wing legislators and voters are traitors for enabling Trump up the way up to (and now well beyond) January 6, 2020. Even Mitt is a traitor, despite the money. Republicans are almost all making excuses for Trump, today, even now, for behavior that may well include selling nuclear and military secrets to terrorist nations, including Saudi Arabia and Russia. And they put him in a position to do so.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:05 PM on June 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

what the hell are "beautiful mind paper boxes" (indictment point 27)? autocorrect? a reference to the film or book?
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 5:05 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

The Young Turks
posted by clavdivs at 5:37 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

It is time for an Oz reboot.

Would he hang with the skinheads?

Oh, and include George bluth eating ice cream sandwiches too.
posted by Keith Talent at 5:47 PM on June 9, 2023

It's hilarious how TFG's penchant for bullshitting, exaggerating, claiming anything and everything is being used to hoist his petard. Over the years of campaigning and politicking he's claimed to be an expert in practically everything and while everyone knows he's full of shit the FBI can enter selected claims into evidence to neuter ignorance defenses.
posted by Mitheral at 6:00 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

In a bathroom with the tackiest of all tacky little chandeliers

He even had a second small chandelier directly over his toilet so he could stand up and look down at his only actual honest achievements without shadows.
posted by srboisvert at 6:03 PM on June 9, 2023 [14 favorites]

It's hilarious how TFG's penchant for bullshitting, exaggerating, claiming anything and everything is being used to hoist his petard.

Going all the way back to The Art Of The Deal, his method has always been to lie to every side possible, getting each party to believe all the other parties had already agreed, until you've managed to build your deal out of thin air. That probably worked okay for him in New York real estate for a while, although I understand his reputation after a few years was one of being a shyster and not trustworthy... But once you try to do that above a certain level, it all starts to be on record and suddenly your lies that worked so well in the past suddenly have their own lives beyond heresay...

And at this point, his habits are too hard to break. He can't stop trying to weave reality out of his word webs. But it's all coming to an end.

His wounded ego at being mocked at a press dinner led him to make the worst decision of his life, and he's only just beginning to realize how badly he fucked up.
posted by hippybear at 6:08 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

If you haven't seen this (Mark Levin's defense of Trump on Fox News, posted on Trump Jr's Twitter account) it's well worth a look.

This is really, Really, REALLY their defense?

Ok, then . . .
posted by flug at 6:08 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

what the hell are "beautiful mind paper boxes" (indictment point 27)? autocorrect? a reference to the film or book?

It was a Colbert skit after Trump did his cognitive test for his whacky doctor. Trump spent at least a week bragging about passing the very hard test of remembering 5 words. Finest Mind the docs had ever seen. The best mind. The most beautiful mind the doctors had ever seen. Then the doctors cried. Also they were big men. Generals too. But they still cried. Like babies.
posted by srboisvert at 6:11 PM on June 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

Right now he could be literally dead and enough people would support him they'd nominate his corpse for the presidency.

To be fair, that would improve my chance of voting for him.
posted by Flunkie at 6:14 PM on June 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

Time for a reboot of Weekend At Bernies!
posted by hippybear at 6:17 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

Right now he could be literally dead and enough people would support him they'd nominate his corpse for the presidency.
To be fair, that would improve my chance of voting for him.
Are you sure? All I can see is Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon being the ones pulling the strings.
posted by Clever User Name at 6:28 PM on June 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

... as opposed to...?
posted by Flunkie at 6:29 PM on June 9, 2023

Money
posted by clavdivs at 7:12 PM on June 9, 2023

MON-EY
posted by clavdivs at 7:13 PM on June 9, 2023

Listen to the federal indictment in the Trump classified documents case [52m, from The Bulwark]
posted by hippybear at 8:37 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think everyone has had that experience of desperately looking for toilet paper. Is this why he complains about having to flush 15 times?
posted by adept256 at 8:46 PM on June 9, 2023

Serious Trouble podcast wherein former fed. prosecutor and current criminal defense attorney Ken “Popehat” White discusses the indictment.
posted by chrchr at 9:09 PM on June 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

That podcast was a fine listen, but it faded out just as it was getting good!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:25 PM on June 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

The rest of it is behind a paywall.
posted by Flunkie at 11:28 PM on June 9, 2023

My rudimentary understanding of classified documents is that even the more modest levels are supposed to be protected by all manner of rules for vetting, access, storage, copying and so on. We can acknowledge that POTUS has all kinds of ways of bypassing the normal protocols and that he has to see and interact with such material daily. But still in a heavily audited and controlled context.

Trump seems well documented as a person whose relationship with documents is limited to reading summaries not more than a sentence or two - or maybe performatively signing them or waving them about. So my question is how does he end up with enough to fill a big bathroom or ballroom stage? He was not going to be the one carrying them around, and he was not going to be the one leafing through them to find the random hit that provides material to brag about or sell. Nor is he the one who would have handled the tricky logistics of getting hold of the material from wherever it should be stored - and retaining that access.

So who was?
posted by rongorongo at 3:28 AM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]

So who was?

His co-defendant?
posted by Thorzdad at 5:24 AM on June 10, 2023

So my question is how does he end up with enough to fill a big bathroom or ballroom stage? He was not going to be the one carrying them around, and he was not going to be the one leafing through them to find the random hit that provides material to brag about or sell. Nor is he the one who would have handled the tricky logistics of getting hold of the material from wherever it should be stored - and retaining that access.

Over the past year or so there has been really extensive writing about all this. Like how all during his presidency everywhere he would travel he would bring along boxes of "his" papers and show them to people, and all the work that was done by staffers to corral and tape back together papers he would carry off and tear up (aside from the ones he would flush, of course). And, check out the indictment for a description of how he was in fact directly involved in directing what went into which boxes and where those boxes were moved back and forth, even though of course he wasn't the one carrying the boxes.

My point isn't that it isn't weird and complicated, just that all this has been documented in incredibly detailed fashion by journalists and is available if you feel like taking a dive into it.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:48 AM on June 10, 2023 [16 favorites]

Comment removed do to seeming to advocate violence. Yes, Trump is unpopular on Metafilter, but please refrain from pushing for violence against him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:00 AM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

and yet TFG doesn't use email.
posted by djseafood at 7:08 AM on June 10, 2023

Thanks for the explanation Dip Flash. I have seen articles about Trump’s behaviour with documents. Walt Nauta is also indicted- but he was Trump’s valet, and the allegations against him seem to involve simply lying about the existence of the documents on request. So o wonder if there is anybody else.
posted by rongorongo at 7:30 AM on June 10, 2023

David Roth is, as ever, absolutely on fucking fire: So It’s A Crime Now To Have Boxes Full Of Cool Folders With Various Words Printed On Them?

In the recollections of the various operators and strivers and morally malleable retreads and aspiring genocidaires and off-brand Beltway reptiles and innumerable lawyers whose paths crossed with Trump's during his time in power there is almost always some moment when they awaken to the fact that the person they are talking to, who is beloved by millions and temporarily the most powerful man in the world, is not just a blowzy weirdo but a fucking dunce. It's not like these people were there because they believed in him, although there are a few of those; these people are all, in varying ways and to varying degrees, amoral opportunists who thought that they might be able to get something from Trump, and that helping him do whatever it was that he wanted to do at that moment might help them get what they want, down the line. Many of them surely knew that Trump wouldn't do anything to help them on purpose. The ones that actually believed in him seemed to love him precisely because of how selfish and cruel he was, and saw it as aspirational; the rest realized that he was world-historically distractible and, again, kind of a dunce, and figured that they might be able to get theirs while his attention was elsewhere. It is America's strange blessing and profound damage that it keeps producing more and more people who believe that this sort of thing might work for them, which it never does.

[...]

Again and again, though, the indictment doesn't so much undercut the significance of that badness as recontextualize it relative to Donald Trump doing the only things that he ever does. Breaking laws in an oafish, overt, seemingly arbitrary way is absolutely Some Donald Trump Shit. But what Trump was doing with all those secret and confidential documents, the indictment reveals, was also Some Donald Trump Shit. While he is certainly one of the most bribe-able individuals of his generation and unquestionably unbound by any higher or finer concerns whatsoever, and while that would not really be the sort of person you'd want having a bunch of sensitive documents in their possession, it is equally salient that Trump is fundamentally an absolutely whopping bitch whose deepest personal desire and abiding life's passion has always been showing off in weird ways and pursuing vinegary personal feuds.

I'll resist the urge to paste the rest. It's stupendous.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:40 AM on June 10, 2023 [33 favorites]

When some particularly nice document was presented for his edification, he'd sometimes ask to hang onto it: "Often the president would say [to intelligence briefers] 'Well, can I keep this?'" Bolton told CBS News. "And in my experience, the intelligence briefers most often would say 'Well, sir, we'd prefer to take that back,' but sometimes they forgot.""

A lot of the boxes seem to have been filled with other, non-secret, crap, all mixed together with the secret documents. The boxes that the FBI found had Time magazines nestled in with top secret documents.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]

You know, it always irritates me to see Trump explained as if he is a bumbling idiot, enabled by a corrupt Republican Party. Because he is and he isn't at all.

First, an aside: it also bothers me to see non-western nations as determined by culture, as if they have no agency. "Chinese are Confucians who cannot handle democracy". "Russians are tsarists, and the few who oppose to the current regime are abnormal, Western educated fake Russians". "Arabs are tribal, and can never accept the rule of law". Just typing these common assumptions makes my blood boil. And in my mind the two things are related. When the cultural elite describe Trump as ignorant, they mistake their own cultural mores for intelligence and knowledge, and disregard the corruption they are part of. I really, really hated the whole proposition that Trump won white working class voters, both because it was wrong, but also because it was so classist. "We the right people know what is right".

Back to the theory of Trump: Trump is a white collar criminal with aspirations to become the most famous mob boss ever. All criminals are stupid at some definition of stupid, because the cost of criminality is statistically too high for long term success, and because a lot of criminal schemes are based on a gamblers approach to success. But they are not that stupid. If criminals were all failures all the time, there would be no criminals, and we all know that isn't true.

Trump aspires to be a mobster, but he is too much of a coward to actually be one. Just like he is a fake billionaire, who played one on reality television, he is a fake mob boss.

Trump is a phony, a reality personality, a grifter, a traitor and a petty crook, but within that field, he is competent and he understands the rules. He understands well that he is not part of the old money elite and also not a real gangster. He understands he is not a real politician and also not a real foreign agent. He is somewhere in between, and his strategy for handling that in-between status has been consistent through decades: he plays both sides, as good as he can.

I have noticed that Newyorkers are not entirely surprised by Trump's trajectory, they are surprised that other Americans were fooled by someone so obviously dishonest, criminal and also ridiculous. The comments above about that bathroom with the boxes say it all: it is incredibly kitsch, I agree wholeheartedly. But we have to remember that kitsch was embraced by the elites when Trump was a young man. The worship of wealth over values has been expanding during his entire life. He has been right. He has bought politicians that are still active today, including the Clintons (and I thought Hilary Clinton would have been a good president).

For the last few days I've been thinking a lot about how this all looks to his fans/cult. Maybe I'm influenced by the weird thing that the algorithm has been sending me versions of Sammy Davis jr as a cult leader in Sweet Charity. (No way this didn't influence Trump). But the main point, as I see it, is that for conservatives all over America, all the Trumpist arguments make sense. Of course it is the deep state or the swamp or the liberals trying to silence him. I have no doubt they believe this in their hearts. Just as they believe Trump must be smart because he is rich. And America is Great.

OK I'm rambling and there will be some sort of a conclusion one day, but not today. Maybe someone else has it?
posted by mumimor at 9:38 AM on June 10, 2023 [18 favorites]

We have top men working on it, right now
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:40 AM on June 10, 2023 [7 favorites]

You know, it always irritates me to see Trump explained as if he is a bumbling idiot…

For many of the same reasons, I feel the same way. But I also think he is highly intelligent and the wealth he comes from makes him intellectually and practically lazy. He has attention and notoriety and tenaciousness and lackeys that get him through this.
posted by Captaintripps at 10:12 AM on June 10, 2023

One result of that I see is the assumption that he didn't sell any of these documents to anyone. "Oh, he just wanted to show them off to friends at parties! What an idiot!" I mean, maybe, but... that's a heck of a thing to take as a given.
posted by kyrademon at 10:40 AM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]

I think it's possible that he thought that it was a maybe little bit illegal (the sort of illegal that has never applied to him) to hold on to them, but bigly illegal to sell them, so he refrained. He isn't totally bereft of a self-preservation instinct; he might have decided that this was the distinction that made hanging onto them okay.

It's possible that he managed to fence them without the DoJ working it out, but it sort of seems unlikely. They've clearly obtained a lot of text messages from everyone around him, Nauta hasn't flipped and told the FBI that Trump had copies made and given to the Saudis, or whatever.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:56 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

We don't know that he didn't sell them, we just know that it is not part of this indictment.
posted by mumimor at 11:04 AM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]

I also think he is highly intelligent

I’ve yet to see any evidence of this.
posted by orange ball at 11:05 AM on June 10, 2023 [14 favorites]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with orange ball. I don't think he's entirely as dumb as he often seems, and I agree that a significant part of his apparent dumbness is intellectual laziness, but things like "highly intelligent" seem to me to be large contrarian overreactions.

He's certainly shrewd in certain ways, like knowing how to get hateful and/or dumb people to think he's great, and he long ago figured out that (thus far) being brazen and litigious lets you get away with a lot. But "highly intelligent"? C'mon. In the "mob boss" analogy, the man is Fredo, not Michael.
posted by Flunkie at 11:17 AM on June 10, 2023 [11 favorites]

I wouldn't call Trump smart - I would call him clever.

And you know about the difference between stupid and clever....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:19 AM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

how about he is intelligent when it comes to bullshitting and manipulating people
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:21 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

In the miasma, Trump's connection to Norman Vincent Peale (Protestant minister, "Power of Positive Thinking" shill, Nixon's pal) gets obscured. Young Trump attended Peale's church, and Peale officiated at his marriage to Ivana. Apologies, Guardian in Feb. 2017: They’re not lies: Donald Trump wills his ‘truth’ into our reality.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:21 AM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

In the "mob boss" analogy, the man is Fredo, not Michael.

Arguably more of a Sonny
posted by Rumple at 11:22 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

you shut your mouth, Sonny was a hothead but he was martyred for his fam -- wait, I take it back
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:30 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

One of the things that interests me reading the indictment is his thinly veiled hints to his lawyers to "disappear" anything that might be incriminating. One of the ways he has gotten away with so much is persuading others to do his dirty work. He could have so easily burned those documents himself. But much better to get someone else to do that and take the fall if it ever comes out.

I'm not so sure it is intelligence or cleverness so much as he probably learned this kind of stuff at his father's knee and practiced it relatively successfully throughout his career and thought it would continue to work forever.
posted by Preserver at 11:31 AM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

Are we talking about the guy who asked if they could just nuke a hurricane? That guy who thought injecting disinfectant would stop covid? Or really bright light? The same guy that stared into an eclipse? The one that thought you needed ID to buy cereal?

Just checking, I wouldn't want to expose my cultural privilege if I misidentify a fucking moron.
posted by adept256 at 11:36 AM on June 10, 2023 [45 favorites]

you shut your mouth, Sonny was a hothead but he was martyred for his fam -- wait, I take it back

I don't think I get it - how is Trump "martyred for his family"? I mean, maybe in the sense that they always act like he's a martyr, but I don't think he really does much of anything at all for anyone but himself, family or no.
posted by Flunkie at 11:37 AM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Just speaking for me, I'm not saying Trump is some mastermind, I'm just saying he knows what he is doing, and thus accountable
posted by mumimor at 11:40 AM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

And all I'm saying is, we shouldn't let his obvious idiocy blind us to the fact that idiots are perfectly capable of doing awful, intentional crimes. He didn't bumble out of the White House with classified documents accidentally stuck to his shoe.
posted by kyrademon at 11:47 AM on June 10, 2023 [19 favorites]

... at least not most of the classified documents.
posted by Flunkie at 11:48 AM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

If you haven't seen this (Mark Levin's defense of Trump on Fox News, posted on Trump Jr's Twitter account) it's well worth a look.

He's screaming so that's a good sign I think.
posted by mazola at 11:50 AM on June 10, 2023 [8 favorites]

I wouldn't call Trump smart - I would call him clever.

Agree, and also whatever intelligence or smarts he may or may not possess are severely undermined by a profoundly disordered mind: whatever he has doesn't work right, and that's the unpredictability and amorality that makes him so challenging for the rest of us.
posted by LooseFilter at 12:07 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Jordan Klepper Takes On Trump's Indictment Rally
posted by y2karl at 12:19 PM on June 10, 2023

If you haven't seen this (Mark Levin's defense of Trump on Fox News, posted on Trump Jr's Twitter account) it's well worth a look.

"President Trump is 76 years old. If the Department of Justice gets its way, he will die in federal prison."

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.
And keep your eye on the sparrow.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:21 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

Flunkie, Sonny's fate over Fredo's ftw.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:35 PM on June 10, 2023

Trump is simultaneously as dumb as a fencepost, and also canny, shrewd, and extremely skilled at influencing and manipulating people. It's a weird combination and most politicians combine a lot more smarts with their ability to connect and influence people. There are a couple of other national politicians who combine the cannyness and dumbness (like Marjorie Taylor Greene) but it's really rare at that level. Even Bush, for all his intellectual lightweightness, had a certain level of curiousness and ability to understand.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:13 PM on June 10, 2023 [10 favorites]

I didn't have much of an opinion of Trump until the Apprentice came out. He wasn't an unknown quantity before I saw that show but he wasn't really on my radar.

After the first season of the show it was clear that Trump was an idiot that likes the sound of his own voice, Jr. is an idiot fail-son, and Ivanka came off as competent (at least playing a competent person on TV). Nothing since has convinced me these impressions are wrong.
posted by VTX at 2:33 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

he's not really dumb, he's manipulative in a shrewd way and willfully ignorant on things that it would be inconvenient for him to learn about, like rules - he is also smart enough to keep around people who will take a fall for him

he is not smart enough to understand that there are limits on how much and how many times that will help him get away with things - and he's nowhere near humble enough to understand that he ran the board, grabbed the big gold ring and that he's had his little game of life go well

all he had to do was to leave quietly without a lot of fuss and just let it go

but, no, he had to get greedy
posted by pyramid termite at 3:07 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]

He's New York street smart. That's all he is. He isn't book learning smart, but he knows how to engineer what he wants from those around him by lying to all parties until they all agree to what he wanted.
posted by hippybear at 3:14 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]

He also learned the Roy Cohn playbook: attack, deny, attack. He deploys it well. He's also very audience attuned, though he's doesn't appear to have learned that the audience applauding him is not representative of the world at large.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:20 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

he is not smart enough to understand that there are limits on how much and how many times that will help him get away with things

To be fair, this approach seems to have worked 75 years in a row. And even if this all catches up to him, the most likely consequence seems to be house arrest, and I get the impression he doesn't leave home except to campaign.
posted by pwnguin at 4:24 PM on June 10, 2023 [11 favorites]

I didn't have much of an opinion of Trump until the Apprentice came out. He wasn't an unknown quantity before I saw that show but he wasn't really on my radar.

On the Celebrity version of which one man was my hero: Gilbert Gottfried.

But then he was from.the first time I saw him.

Starting at 9:17 tbh.
posted by y2karl at 4:27 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

Doomers, take note: Reportedly, Ken "Popehat" White's podcast contained warnings for what horrible miscarriages of justice might be in the offing. Not will -- might.

1) There is no sure way to dislodge Cannon from this case before she causes harm. While there will be obvious calls for her to recuse, her making a procedural ruling so absurd that it prompts the 11th Circuit to review and move to send the case to a different judge might be the most likely path.

2) If she remains as the presiding judge, she has several ways in which she could turn this into a three-ring circus. She could remove the jury from the picture either by acquitting from the bench directly (which would eliminate the possibility of appeal or retrial if the jury has been seated) or calling for a bench trial from the beginning, with "is it even possible to find twelve unbiased jurors for this" as the pretext. She could make absurd rulings as to whether evidence is admissible or attorney-client privilege issues or whatnot.

3) There is no sure way to PREVENT her from doing those things above, if/when this advances to trial. The reasons extended as to why a judge would refuse to go full Calvinball include the respect of their colleagues, career advancement, and their legacy -- and it is a guessing game whether or not Cannon finds any of those three valuable, or if she will grasp the full gravity of the situation.

So... watch carefully, and keep up on your vitamins.
posted by delfin at 5:13 PM on June 10, 2023 [15 favorites]

A little light reading while trying to pass an orb.
posted by srboisvert at 5:30 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Ken "Popehat" White

But does he address whether it's RICO?
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:13 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

In a similar vein: Disney has rewritten the ending to Raiders of the Lost Ark
posted by mbo at 6:14 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

Okay, now do Clarence Thomas.
posted by theora55 at 6:22 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]

For the Doomers, another cursed scenario Popehat advances: Judge Cannon corruptly dismisses the case against Trump —> Trump elected president again —> Cannon appointed to the Supreme Court.
posted by chrchr at 7:15 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Just by expressing that you're possibly conjuring it into existence.
posted by hippybear at 7:25 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

I don’t believe in that.
posted by chrchr at 7:49 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Ah, but have you considered that just by expressing the idea that just by expressing something, you're possibly conjuring it into existence, hippybear has possibly conjured the idea that just by expressing something, you're possibly conjuring it into existence into existence?
posted by Flunkie at 7:55 PM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]

Stop that!
posted by wenestvedt at 7:59 PM on June 10, 2023 [7 favorites]

Judge Cannon corruptly dismisses the case against Trump

Such a dismissal could not be appealed by the prosecutors?

Bedsides, surely Jack Smith's team would have gamed out that scenario? One thing they have proven not to be thus far is sloppy.
posted by Pouteria at 8:10 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

I think TFG has some intelligence, but is mostly really good at being a narcissist, opportunist, grifter. He grasps at every bit of power available to him and holds on to it. He curries favor. He boasts and lies and lies. He's utterly corrupt and blase about it. He's relentless at this. Energetic relentless greed can get you pretty far, especially is you have absolutely no morals. The extent of the lies suggest psychopathy as well. I generally don't like armchair diagnosing, but he's made himself fair game.
posted by theora55 at 8:21 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Such a dismissal could not be appealed by the prosecutors?

A lawyer can attest to this more accurately and thoroughly than I can. So, here, read through this.

To summarize, there are distinctions between declaration of a mistrial and a dismissal and an outright acquittal by a trial judge, and it is not always easy to tell which the judge is actually invoking. A dismissal that is not based on factual evidence (guilt or innocence) but on other factors can be appealed, in an attempt to resume the same trial process; that is not considered double jeopardy. If a jury convicts and the judge then tosses out their verdict and declares acquittal, that can be appealed because it's seeking to reinstate the verdict, not to obtain a second trial. But if a judge declares acquittal, most times that's that; there is no second trial possible for the same person and offense, under the double jeopardy clause.

"But what if the judge is corrupt?" Well, one could argue that the founders's response would have been "Then impeach that judge." You know, better ten guilty men walk than one innocent be jailed and all that, no matter how richly this particular defendant may likely fall into the former category.
posted by delfin at 8:56 PM on June 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

Trump Supporters’ Violent Rhetoric in His Defense Disturbs Experts (gift link)

In Georgia, at the Republican state convention, Kari Lake, who refused to concede the Arizona election for governor in 2022 and who is an ardent defender of Mr. Trump, emphasized that many of Mr. Trump’s supporters owned guns.

“I have a message tonight for Merrick Garland and Jack Smith and Joe Biden — and the guys back there in the fake news media, you should listen up as well, this one is for you,” Ms. Lake said. “If you want to get to President Trump, you are going to have go through me, and you are going to have to go through 75 million Americans just like me. And I’m going to tell you, most of us are card-carrying members of the N.R.A.”

The crowd cheered.

Ms. Lake added: “That’s not a threat, that’s a public service announcement.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:58 PM on June 10, 2023

Such a dismissal could not be appealed by the prosecutors?

Nope. “Once a jury is empaneled, she can dismiss the case and there’s not a goddamn thing anyone can do about it. Double jeopardy attaches. You’re done. She can grant a motion for a directed verdict of acquittal after the government’s case, and then we’re done. He can’t be retried, it can’t be reviewed. It’s over.” — Popehat

That’s the most drastic scenario he outlined. She can also more subtly tank the prosecution by ruling on things that can be appealed but will delay the trial. In particular, he notes the rulings on evidence — like ruling that certain evidence of the prosecution can’t be admitted — could be difficult to overcome before the trial.
posted by chrchr at 9:00 PM on June 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Oh man, the way this thread is going, there is not enough Wellbutrin in the world to cheer me up.
posted by y2karl at 9:09 PM on June 10, 2023 [6 favorites]

Well, Cannon may not get the case, or maybe she will take the smackdown from the 11th circuit to heart and not do anything too out-of-line, or maybe the prosecutors will succeed in getting her removed. A lot of things could happen!
posted by chrchr at 9:16 PM on June 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

Jack Smith has made a public statement

"Ladies and gentlemen, we got 'im.

This is a great day in history. For decades, hundreds of thousands of you suffered at the hands of this cruel man. For decades, he divided you citizens against each other. For decades, he threatened and attacked your neighbors. Those days are over forever. Now it is time to look to the future, to your future of hope, to a future of reconciliation.

Your future has never been more full of hope. The tyrant is a prisoner... You have before you the prospect of a sovereign government in a few months. "

With the arrest of Donald Trump, there is a new opportunity for the members of the former regime, whether military or civilian, to end their bitter opposition. Let them now come forward in a spirit of reconciliation and hope, lay down their arms, and join you, their fellow citizens, in the task of building the new USA"
posted by eustatic at 9:32 PM on June 10, 2023

Thanks for responses.

Getting Cannon was one giant spanner I did not see coming.

What a shitfest. :-(
posted by Pouteria at 9:46 PM on June 10, 2023

“If you want to get to President Trump, you are going to have go through me, and you are going to have to go through 75 million Americans just like me. And I’m going to tell you, most of us are card-carrying members of the N.R.A.”

OK, so more than 37.5 million of them are card-carrying members of the N.R.A.... which says it has about 5.5 million members.

Math was never their strong suit.
posted by Flunkie at 9:55 PM on June 10, 2023 [13 favorites]

Oh man, the way this thread is going, there is not enough Wellbutrin in the world to cheer me up.

Let's put it this way. When the Let's Pretend There Was Actual Fraud Legal Cavalcade of 2020 was imminent, many of us fretted about this precise scenario -- the idea that Trump-appointed judges or otherwise-unprincipled Republican-leaning judges would simply ignore law and precedent and find pretexts to simply hand state electors over to Team Trump.

And that didn't happen, by and large. The system worked as advertised; judges nearly unanimously looked at ridiculous arguments by Team Trump and laughed them off. Even very conservative judges, even at the SCOTUS level, felt like their hands were tied by the actual facts.

Smith did not unleash this particular tactical nuke frivolously. We know that Team Trump will put forth one tortured argument and one vaguely-relevant precedent after another in attempts to find techicalities that Cannon can use in their favor; that's a given. What White is discussing is the non-zero probability that Cannon might go far beyond that base level of corruption and embrace full insanity for personal gain, how the system takes for granted that judges will not go cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs to that extent, and what little would prevent that if she did prove to be monumentally unscrupulous and toss her career aside.

She disappointed observers greatly the last time around with her conduct, but she is still part of the system; she is not Roger Stone in an astounding makeup job. A non-zero probability of worst-case scenario does not equate to likely. More probable is that she'll lean on the case but not break it in half, and become public enemy #1 in CHUD eyes for not simply taking Trump's claims of innocence on faith.

Time will tell.
posted by delfin at 9:56 PM on June 10, 2023 [17 favorites]

Smith did not unleash this particular tactical nuke frivolously.

The Smith team's track record so far is the one reassuring thing here for me.

I don't doubt for a second that they saw this issue coming, and gamed it long and hard.
posted by Pouteria at 10:21 PM on June 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

Math was never their strong suit.

They seem proficient at attempts at violence - might be worth it to listen to violent, right-wing gun owners when they announce they're going to be violent, before they act.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:33 PM on June 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Yes, yes, now that I've seen the error of my ways in making a dumb joke at their intellectual expense on some random website, I'll be sure to take their threats seriously, which I have never done before (which is obvious, because, as I said, I made a dumb joke at their intellectual expense on some random website).
posted by Flunkie at 10:45 PM on June 10, 2023

Violent right wing gun owners are going to be violent regardless, so nothing much changes unless people were somehow unaware of this before. The country is already under seige from these fucks.
posted by Artw at 11:14 PM on June 10, 2023 [23 favorites]

Here's a brighter hypothesis.

I know for certain Trump is dumb enough to try and contact Cannon while she was handling the evidence. In his world she owes him a favor for the appointment and is therefore his pet judge. Maybe Cannon was dumb enough to respond, Smith knows this and has receipts.
posted by adept256 at 11:50 PM on June 10, 2023 [10 favorites]

There weren't many protesters in Manhattan. There will probably be more in Florida, because so many mega-hats live there, but it's my impression from afar that the still ongoing crack-down on the insurrectionists is having a sobering effect.
posted by mumimor at 11:53 PM on June 10, 2023

Kari Lake is clearly pitching herself as Trump's running mate with the comments They sucked his brains out linked to above.
posted by essexjan at 3:20 AM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

Kari Lake is clearly pitching herself as Trump's running mate

Yeah, I would hope that it would have to be a JV pick - there's such reputational damage in running with a potentially convicted criminal that you'd have to really need the chance for the inevitable "if I'm convicted whilst President/President elect you have to pardon me for everything" chat.
posted by jaduncan at 4:11 AM on June 11, 2023

“If you want to get to President Trump, you are going to have go through me, and you are going to have to go through 75 million Americans just like me. And I’m going to tell you, most of us are card-carrying members of the N.R.A.”

OK, so more than 37.5 million of them are card-carrying members of the N.R.A.... which says it has about 5.5 million members.

Math was never their strong suit.

I know this is stating the obvious, but while agreeing with your math, the meaning of her statement wasn't about actual NRA membership levels, instead using "card-carrying members" as a stand-in for "gun-owning and right-wing," a category that wildly exceeds the actual NRA membership.

I keep waiting for the other GOP candidates to find a better way to finesse this. But right now they are caught in this trap where Trump is more beloved every day by the "base" (who vote in primaries) and yet also more unelectable in a general election, too. A couple of the marginal candidates (e.g., Christie) have gone for direct criticism of Trump, but they also aren't particularly making a play for the core part of his base. The more credible candidates like Pence and DeSantis are tying themselves in knots to try and avoid the tiniest insult to the base, while also understanding that their only chance of winning the primary is for Trump to be irreparably damaged by his legal situation, which hasn't yet happened.

They are trying to have their cake and eat it too, and I don't think that is going to be possible.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 AM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

I think Kari Lake has a good shot at being Trump's running mate. On her side of things, she couldn't get elected governor in Arizona, but she could get hired at any right-wing outfit with video cameras--accepting a VP nod has a gigantic upside and she has very little to lose.

On his side, people are telling him he needs to get more votes from suburban women, and, because he has absolutely no idea how to do that (stop beating up on teachers, break from party orthodoxy on reproductive rights, some kind of time-travel scenario, just don't be such a dick), and wouldn't be willing to do it if he did (partly because he's just incapable, partly because it opens a lane that DeSantis desperately needs to run to his right), he's going to think picking a woman VP is a good play.
posted by box at 7:03 AM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

is incitement to violence still a chargeable offence?
posted by kokaku at 7:10 AM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

is incitement to violence still a chargeable offence?

In theory, but in practice the risk for politicians especially seems close to zero.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:14 AM on June 11, 2023 [4 favorites]

more credible candidates like Pence

lol

is incitement to violence still a chargeable offence?

It's funny, if you had a list of people that want Trump to meet his final cheeseburger, it's his primary opponents first.
posted by adept256 at 7:25 AM on June 11, 2023

According to his frmr Attorney General He's Toast
posted by djseafood at 8:53 AM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

Huh. Wonder why that worm turned.
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on June 11, 2023

Barr's been ragging on Trump to some degree or another pretty often ever since he left office. Just another example of an asshole who knew better, went all in, and now wants us to forget.
posted by Flunkie at 12:28 PM on June 11, 2023 [15 favorites]

June, 2022: With his salty dismissals of the former President’s election fraud lies as “bullshit,” “crazy,” “amateurish” and “total nonsense,” Barr has turned into Trump’s nemesis with his taped testimony to the House select committee investigating the January 6, 2021, attack on the US Capitol. Barr "dismantled specific Trump-backed claims about illegal “vote dumps” in Detroit, nationwide vote-rigging by Dominion with its election machines, and other conspiracy theories. Barr said the theories Trump supported were “idiotic” and “amateurish” and “detached from reality." [CNN]

Barr announced his resignation weeks before the insurrection, effective Dec. 23, 2020. He's pretty critical, if only to distance himself from all the criming.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:55 PM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Barr seems to think he has some kind of reputation left for anyone outside of MAGA and he's been doing his damnedness since he left office to salvage whatever is there. He doesn't realize his handling of the Mueller Report basically burned his house to the ground.
posted by hippybear at 1:07 PM on June 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

Huh. Wonder why that worm [Bill Barr] turned.

Something that keeps popping into my head as an "wouldn't it be cool if...." scenario: Walt Nauta making some kind of plea deal and turning over a crapton more evidence on Trump so he can get a lighter sentence.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:20 PM on June 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

At least three podcast analyses of the situation has been "he was charged hoping he will turn".

I don't know what he hopes to get out of staying stumm.
posted by hippybear at 3:25 PM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

I don't know what he hopes to get out of staying stumm.

A pardon.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:05 PM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

The Rude Pundit:

...from what we know now (and, sure, it's definitely possible that a thousand more shoes will drop), it looks like Trump did all this just because he wanted to keep important shit and show off what a big shot he was. Motherfucker waved around documents and talked about how secret they were. It was just another version of dick measuring: "Oh, you own a Picasso? Well, I can tell you how to blow up France. Top that." And he didn't want to give them back because then he wouldn't be that big shot anymore. They were his and fuck you if you wanted them back.

I mean, honestly, it would be less embarrassing if this whole thing turns out to be espionage because at least there's a fucking purpose beyond feeding the voracious ego of a soulless orange monster with mommy, daddy, and every other relative issues. At least it would mean more than impressing the dead-eyed zombies with botox smiles parading around a cut-rate Xanadu, pretending to worship the moron king who gets off playing DJ, spinning "YMCA" while everyone gorges themselves at the overpriced feed trough. God, this is all so devoid of meaning that the nation should be ashamed that it allowed his election, that it allowed him to roam free for so long, that it didn't rise up and vomit him out like bad, overcooked steak.

posted by kirkaracha at 4:11 PM on June 11, 2023 [30 favorites]

Well, he gives a whole new meaning to bathroom reading
posted by y2karl at 4:21 PM on June 11, 2023 [4 favorites]

His motivation could have been both for dick measuring and for profits. He had a LOT of stuff.
posted by VTX at 5:11 PM on June 11, 2023 [6 favorites]

Allison Gill and Andrew McCabe go through the indictment and draw out a lot of interesting points. [45m, Jack podcast]
posted by hippybear at 6:12 PM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

Barr turned in December of 2020 when he decided that he didn’t want to be part of a coup.
posted by interogative mood at 6:39 PM on June 11, 2023

there was actual Nazi infiltration of our government during WWII that was brought to a spectacularly failed trial

What is this referring to, please? My half-assed googling has thus far only come up with Operation Pastorius and the Duquesne Spy Ring, neither of which were infiltrations of the government, nor resulted in failed trials.
posted by Flunkie at 6:42 PM on June 11, 2023

Rachel Maddow lays it all out for you, with ancillary material in the website, in the podcast Ultra. If you aren't aware of this, you should be.
posted by hippybear at 6:50 PM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

You might want to point to something more concise than a 8 episode podcast then, if you want people to be aware of it.
posted by tavella at 6:56 PM on June 11, 2023 [10 favorites]

And those asking other people to spoonfeed them info that's readily available through entirely mainstream media sources might want to be less condescending about it.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:02 PM on June 11, 2023

Wait, was I condescending? I didn't mean to be. TBH I basically agree with tavella, but I didn't say anything about it (till now). In any case, for the benefit of anyone who, like me, was hoping for something more like "It's the blah-blah-blah affair" (i.e. a quick starting point to look up and investigate at my leisure) and less like "Here is a page with hours of audio for you to listen to":

I had been attempting to piece together what this was referring to just by looking up some of the people vaguely mentioned on the podcast's overview page, and eventually wound up finding that this is referring to the trial United States v. McWilliams.
posted by Flunkie at 7:11 PM on June 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

If you want a pithy summation of what turned out to be a years-long campaign that involved using US money to mail Fascist propaganda to US citizens and a whole lot of other things and involved dozens of players... I guess maybe the resource I linked you, which has separate ancillary documentation links for every episode so you could actually look well beyond the overview page without listening to a minute of anything, might be the quickest way to give you the full story.
posted by hippybear at 7:19 PM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

... yes, great, thank you.
posted by Flunkie at 7:24 PM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

Looking at the list of people involved in that trial in the Smith Act article, only one appeared to have worked for the government, and had resigned from such over a decade before. The rest listed were basically cranks and propagandists, so I'm wondering where the "Nazi infiltration of the government" bit came from.
posted by tavella at 7:25 PM on June 11, 2023

There are transcripts of every episode linked on the page for Ultra. I'm not going to do more for you than tell you that.
posted by hippybear at 7:56 PM on June 11, 2023

.....Hippybear, are you okay?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:59 PM on June 11, 2023 [10 favorites]

Members of congress were using the congressional privilege to send mail to people without paying for it Nazi propaganda.

That's one sentence.
posted by hippybear at 8:28 PM on June 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

Here, Rolling Stone, on the first page of a Google Search for this podcast, summarizes the thing for you.
posted by hippybear at 8:32 PM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

"wouldn't it be cool if...." scenario: Walt Nauta making some kind of plea deal and turning over a crapton more evidence on Trump so he can get a lighter sentence.
I immediately assumed that was why he was charged in the first place. He's hardly a prize on his own and could likely be successful in a claim that he believed what the POTUS ordered him to do couldn't possibly be illegal.
posted by dg at 8:43 PM on June 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

Please refrain from making comments directed towards other users. Feel free to send us an email with concerns rather than addressing users in this thread if it’s not relevant to the conversation.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 9:33 PM on June 11, 2023 [4 favorites]

Jeffrey Blehar in National Review, Trump’s Indictment Is Worse Than You Think It Is

Lest you think Trump is being indicted for something like sneaking the CIA World Factbook out of the Oval Office, note that Trump himself (always his own worst enemy) helpfully made clear just how serious the material he stole was by consenting to be recorded showing them off and talking about them. The battle plans and highly classified maps of war zones are just the ones we know about, and that’s only because Trump was acting simultaneously like the star of a comedy of errors and A Confederacy of Dunces.

And dunces these people are. The tale of how irresponsibly Trump and his underlings stored these documents (which he mindlessly regarded as his personal “papers”) takes up the remarkable first segment of the indictment. From an open ballroom to a bathroom, to a shower, to a storage closet by a liquor cabinet, Trump was directing his people to lug all these boxes of classified information around to comically insecure and high-traffic areas. Forget about reasonable security, forget about potential exposure to foreign agents; we’re just lucky nobody accidentally urinated on America’s Iranian counterstrike plan during the years 2021–22.
...
But that of course is only half of the indictment, the other half pertaining to what Trump did after the federal authorities became aware of his acts. This is the point where the obstruction and conspiracy charges begin, my friends. Per the document, Trump first asked one of his attorneys to aver to the feds that he had no classified documents. But when his attorney said it would be necessary to search the premises in order to certify to the FBI that Trump indeed held no classified information, the former president then explicitly directed a flunky to move boxes full of classified information from their unsecure storage space at Mar-a-Lago to his home on the property so that his own attorney wouldn’t find out he was lying about them. It is an almost comically textbook conspiracy case.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:33 PM on June 11, 2023 [24 favorites]

I’m really feeling the writers strike right now. Seeing Colbert mentioned in the thread made me go to his show’s YouTube channel. No updates since early May save for an Emmys submission. Bummer.
posted by LanTao at 1:18 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]

Seth Meyers misses being on-air right now too. "For more on this It's time for a Closer Loo -- OH FUCK ME! I'll say this much - I feel bad for [A Closer Look writer] @salgentile's neighbor right now. They are getting an EARFUL."
posted by Servo5678 at 3:59 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]

My favorite new quotes on Trump's indictment from the New York Times this morning are

#1) That his second term was foretold in the Necronomicon, written in eldritch script on the Mountains of Madness and carved deep, deep into the white stones of the Plateau of Leng.

from Ross Douthat

and Bret Stephens and Gail Collins

Gail: Wow, the pictures of those boxes of classified documents piled up around the toilet …

Bret: Really puts a new spin on the term “anal retentive.”
posted by y2karl at 7:35 AM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

Because

#a) I made the same call earlier and am glad to the same allusion made in the NYT by anyone...

And

#b) I just wish I thought of it here.
posted by y2karl at 7:49 AM on June 12, 2023

A Closer Loo, indeed
posted by stevis23 at 8:35 AM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]

So, apparently Trump has no local counsel for tomorrow, which may mean the arraignment has to wait - though not the surrender.
posted by nubs at 9:01 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

...does that mean what i hope it means? He remains in custody until the arraignment?
posted by saturday_morning at 9:29 AM on June 12, 2023

He gets assigned a public defender?

He gets arraigned without counsel?

Nope, those are the kinds of things that happen to poor people.
posted by box at 9:43 AM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]

I’m really feeling the writers strike right now. Seeing Colbert mentioned in the thread made me go to his show’s YouTube channel. No updates since early May save for an Emmys submission. Bummer.

The first thing I did when I heard the news was to look for his monologue on YouTube.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:49 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

There'll be Lionel Hutzes queueing out the door to represent that asshole.
posted by essexjan at 9:57 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

I spoke with a work colleague whose girlfriend is a lawyer - Trump not being able to find legal counsel on his own means he would be assigned a public defender. (And - I should add that he started laughing as he was saying the words "public defender", and so did I.)

And as a lagniappe - he also shared the delightful news that Fox is talking about suing Tucker Carlson for the videos he's been posting on Twitter - because they consider it a violation of the non-compete paperwork from when he was fired.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:06 AM on June 12, 2023 [5 favorites]

Not to derail, just an observation that if Tiucker starts accusing Fox of being part of the Deep State trying to silence him, I'm going to make more popcorn.
posted by hippybear at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]

So can Trump's lawyers petition Cannon for a trial by judge rather than by jury? Which Cannon then approves and acquits Trump preventing double jeopardy?
I hear this silliness by some pundits that Cannon might be chastised and reasonable which has happened with zero wingnuts in my life.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:20 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

It's hard to say. The Circuit Court basically made her issue a retraction of her rulings, not just overruled them but made her change the record. I remember hearing at the time that this is rather unusual.

I do note that the judge who issued the search warrant for MaL is also assigned this same case. I don't know what that means in FL courts, but I found that something to note. Maybe he's there to keep her on a short leash.
posted by hippybear at 10:24 AM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]

I was listening to NPR today about Berlusconi, and they mentioned that he served his tax evasion prison sentence not by jail time, but by doing unpaid community service.
I was trying to imagine this outcome for TFG.
posted by MtDewd at 10:56 AM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

"HERE ARE SOME PAPER TOWELS! THEY ARE THE BEST PAPER TOWELS YOU CAN IMAGINE!"
posted by Windopaene at 11:16 AM on June 12, 2023 [6 favorites]

Magistrate to preside over Trump’s arraignment, not controversial Judge Aileen Cannon
posted by mcdoublewide at 11:45 AM on June 12, 2023 [15 favorites]

Magistrate Judge Jonathan Goodman —

This isn't 'Nam, Donald. There are rules.
posted by stevis23 at 11:48 AM on June 12, 2023 [17 favorites]

stevis23: This isn't 'Nam, Donald.

Do you mean this 'Nam?
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:36 PM on June 12, 2023

So, apparently Trump has no local counsel for tomorrow, which may mean the arraignment has to wait - though not the surrender.

PRO SE ALL THE WAY, MR. PRESIDENT SIR!
posted by Flunkie at 2:44 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

Maybe he's there to keep her on a short leash.

Magistrate judges are acting on delegated authority from the district judges, and so it seems like he'd generally be subordinate to her.

Seems like he's un-sidelining Chris Kise: "One of the lawyers expected to help former President Donald Trump defend himself against federal charges is Chris Kise... It’s unclear if Kise will accompany Trump into the courtroom during Tuesday’s hearing, though Kise is admitted to practice law in the Southern District of Florida. Todd Blanche, who Trump has tapped to lead the legal team fighting the documents case, is expected to be in the courtroom."
posted by BungaDunga at 4:07 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

Shoes Yet to Drop in the Mar-a-Lago Investigation:

At several points, the unsealed indictment points towards more possible misconduct by Trump and some of his associates that is not covered by the charges it brings. The fact that special counsel Jack Smith is willing to make these factual allegations suggests that he and his team have already begun to investigate them and reached at least some preliminary conclusions. And federal prosecutors are not limited to just one bite at the apple; if they acquire sufficient evidence of additional criminal conduct, they can file updated or additional indictments, both in Florida and elsewhere.

Potential charges include:

Removal of Classified Documents from the White House
Disclosures of Classified Information
Further Unlawful Retention (and Possible Destruction) of Classified Documents
Possible Additional Co-Conspirators

posted by kirkaracha at 4:34 PM on June 12, 2023 [4 favorites]

I will hold out hope until the last second that the Judge decides that like other criminal defendants charged in espionage act cases he should remain in custody pending trial.
posted by interogative mood at 4:46 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

Only Metafilter would end up arguing about what kind of smart Trump secretly is
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:47 PM on June 12, 2023 [19 favorites]

My interpretation of the idiom "stupid is as stupid does" is that we should judge a person's intelligence based on their actions. So the Trump intelligence question boils down to is Trump stupid because of the myriad stupid things he has done or is he doing myriad stupid things to appeal to stupid people in an attempt to achieve a smart goal, thus actually doing smart things.

My position is that a stupid thing done for any reason is still a stupid thing. Trump promises to continue doing stupid things for stupid people so the end result of any alleged intelligence is more stupid things. In this essay, I will....
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:33 PM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]

Inside the Implosion of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Legal Team: "prior to the recent exodus, some of Trump’s lawyers would regularly trash Epshteyn behind his back, including by using various derisive nicknames such as “Porous” Epshteyn, related to their private suspicions that he was leaking material to the press, and “Boris Inept-shteyn.”"
posted by BungaDunga at 6:18 PM on June 12, 2023 [3 favorites]

Boris N. Epshteyn, of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:11 PM on June 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

MAGA: Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
posted by interogative mood at 9:28 PM on June 12, 2023 [10 favorites]

With MAGA, it's attorneys all the way down.
posted by dg at 9:57 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

The Lawfare Podcast: Read With Me: The Trump Indictment

This weekend, Lawfare Editor-in-Chief Benjamin Wittes had a conversation on Read With Me, a by-subscription-only podcast associated with Ben’s Substack Dog Shirt Daily. In this episode, Ben went through the indictment of Donald Trump at great length and with particular care with Lawfare Fulton County Court Correspondent Anna Bower and Lawfare Contributing Editor Matt Tait. It's a line-by-line, page-by-page analysis that we thought might be a good resource for people who are trying to make sense of the indictment—where it's strong, where it raises issues, what issues it raises, and where things might go from here.

It's less than two hours long.
posted by kingless at 3:17 AM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

SPECIAL COUNSEL: How do we prove he knew they were classified?

FBI: He admits knowing they were classified on this taped conversation

SPECIAL COUNSEL: But how can we prove that he didn’t declassify them before he left office?

FBI: You’re not gonna believe this
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:19 AM on June 13, 2023 [26 favorites]

Interesting piece on emptywheel about having a prosecution by the victors avoid being accused of unfairness, comparing this case to the Nuremberg Trials. From presiding judge/Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson's opening remarks:

Unfortunately, the nature of these crimes is such that both prosecution and judgment must be by victor nations over vanquished foes. The worldwide scope of the aggressions carried out by these men has left but few real neutrals. Either the victors must judge the vanquished or we must leave the defeated to judge themselves. After the first World War, we learned the futility of the latter course.
...
We will not ask you to convict these men on the testimony of their foes. There is no count in the Indictment that cannot be proved by books and records. The Germans were always meticulous record keepers, and these defendants had their share of the Teutonic passion for thoroughness in putting things on paper. Nor were they without vanity. They arranged frequently to be photographed in action. We will show you their own films. You will see their own conduct and hear their own voices as these defendants re-enact for you, from the screen, some of the events in the course of the conspiracy.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:50 AM on June 13, 2023 [23 favorites]

LegalEagle: Trump's Bombshell Federal Document Indictment.
posted by Pendragon at 8:54 AM on June 13, 2023

I'm really hoping someone from the national security sphere comes out with a longform esplainer of all the implications and possible bad outcomes of the public availability of docs at MAL.

The focus right now is on possession of the docs. But we know that there was an uptick in foreign agent deaths, at the very least. There is real damage to our national security and intelligence efforts, it's fair to say.

It *has* to be the case that almost every enemy nation had people working the case, hovering, poking around for open doors and boxes. With cameras. We have only heard a few pieces of what the Orange Menace actually did with the documents -- showing them off while stating he knew he should not -- but one can guess that there is evidence of more. (I remember some pics of him at a party showing something off?) Especially for a person whose entire life and career is one long sales con. It's possible to speculate on what a truthful receipt for the $2B from the Saudis might acknowledge. These are only my haven't-really-thought-about-it ideas; I'd love to hear a lot more from an insider.

Because it goes a lot further than possession, and that needs said loudly.
posted by Dashy at 9:19 AM on June 13, 2023 [17 favorites]

It *has* to be the case that almost every enemy nation had people working the case

Such a good point! One thing is actively selling information to the Saudis, but everyone else would just by default have agents spending time at the club and wandering about. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing their jobs.
posted by mumimor at 9:34 AM on June 13, 2023

probably not just enemy nations. i bet, for example, the dutch at least tried a little to see what they could get out of mar-a-lago. just some good-natured spyjinks between allies. y'know as a a treat.
posted by logicpunk at 9:41 AM on June 13, 2023 [4 favorites]

Dashy: It *has* to be the case that almost every enemy nation had people working the case

In my imagination, every new hire at MaL in the past five years was a foreign agent. The employee break room is a swirl of accents whispered into phones behind a sheltering hand, and the fridge is stuffed with exotic foods in Tupperware bearing labels in a dozen alphabets. Every time someone knocks on a door before opening it, there is a flurry of shuffling noises as drawers are slammed and papers put back.

It's like a Wes Anderson vision of Casablanca crossed with Knives Out.

And if it didn't represent the complete selling out of my nation by an amoral piece of New York real estate trash, I would love it.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:55 AM on June 13, 2023 [22 favorites]

Only Metafilter would end up arguing about what kind of smart Trump secretly is

Wait, this has practically been a platform plank of MAGAts and even Qanon that he's always playing 4D chess and that all of his shambling, fumbling nonsense is all an act and booby trap.

probably not just enemy nations. i bet, for example, the dutch at least tried a little to see what they could get out of mar-a-lago. just some good-natured spyjinks between allies. y'know as a a treat.

You betcha. There's a long history of this in intel and spycraft of using and hoarding information as spendable coin, even among allies. You never know what kind of dirt could be bartered to another unrelated party to, say, release one of their own spies or political prisoners.

This can be extremely valuable especially if the state or entity can't pin down where it leaked from due to obfuscation or multiple leaks, kind of like a metaphorical stack of unmarked bills.
posted by loquacious at 9:58 AM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

The headlines stating Trump is being arrested make me smile, I can't help it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:09 AM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

I immediately assumed that was why he was charged in the first place. He's hardly a prize on his own and could likely be successful in a claim that he believed what the POTUS ordered him to do couldn't possibly be illegal.

The relevant bit of 18 US Code 793 (e):

Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it

a) ex-POTUS, which is more problematic for your claim because it cannot be claimed that Trump had the power at that moment to declassify them and thus the document markings should be taken more seriously than if he could claim to instantly declassify them as POTUS;

b) this part (and lots of) the Espionage Act is not predicated on knowledge of a crime, but wilful retention;

c) good luck in court stating that you didn't realise that moving documents marked as classified as an way to reduce their vulnerability to a possible FBI raid would be, to an average citizen, something that could be understood as wilful retention.

Sure, there will be pressure on him to flip and probably a deal offered.

This is however something that you would expect to be prosecuted as a matter of course - it's conspiracy to violate 793(e) with explciitly S/TS classification marked documents being hidden after an explicit NARA and then FBI demand for them, and people go to prison for a lot less; hiding completely unclassified private accounting records from the FBI, or from the IRS even before a demand.

The documents here are sworn to include TS rated war plans, and that's only in the documents that were thought reasonable to describe in court.
posted by jaduncan at 10:33 AM on June 13, 2023

Live updates on the court appearance from the Miami Herald, including traffic info for locals.
posted by May Kasahara at 10:40 AM on June 13, 2023

I turned on the tv and caught a sign in the H U G E (not big at all), peaceful crowd that said "LOCK HIM UP," so that's fun.

The NYT's live feed just published a picture of this like a minute ago, along with Uncle Sam on a Segway and... uh... whatever this is.
posted by Flunkie at 10:46 AM on June 13, 2023

whatever this is.

That is a gutless pig I believe.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 10:50 AM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

Nauta was also charged with concealing a document relevant to an investigation, which doesn't hinge on who told him to do it or whether the document was actually classified- the subpoena was for all documents marked classified.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:04 AM on June 13, 2023

All the analysis I've consumed about this are that the document charges aren't the real crime here, it's the obstruction. The document charges, with the Espionage act parts that don't have anything to do with what was done with the documents simply that they were not returned when asked, are a backstop to the idea that "you can't charge obstruction if there is no crime" bullshit [and that is legal bullshit -- obstruction has nothing to do with a crime and has to do with an investigation of a crime].

The Nauta charge is part and parcel with this.

Jack's team really tried to dot all the i's and cross all the t's for this.
posted by hippybear at 11:47 AM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

The headlines stating Trump is being arrested make me smile, I can't help it.

That and the small detail that he signed into law the changes that turned mishandling classified documents into a felony instead of a misdemeanor in 2017.

Like... what? What kind of a total doofus do you have to be to sign off on a new law and then willfully and intentionally break that exact and very specific law? I mean I get it, he thinks he's above the law but... wow, really?

I really hope this comes up in the trial as evidence that he knew what he was doing was a felony specifically because he signed the damn law and they taunt and poke him with it like a hot iron over and over again.
posted by loquacious at 11:57 AM on June 13, 2023 [28 favorites]

I immediately assumed that was why he was charged in the first place. He's hardly a prize on his own...

I think they charged him because they think he committed a serious crime.

Smith and his team are no dummies. They understand the politics; they understand the consequences of their actions, and like all prosecutors, they hope that defendants will start ratting each other out.

But remember that they were hired to enforce the law in a nonpartisan way, and I am sure they take that responsibility damn seriously. They are not just doing things by the book in order to avoid the appearance of bias, but because they believe that is their job. Even in the confines of their office, there are no offhand mocking jokes about Trump's (or Biden's) politics. Like all of us, they have personal opinions, but when they are making legal decisions, they are doing their absolute best to put them aside.

Trump clearly can't understand this honorable perspective, since it's so alien to him, but many people glorying in Smith's takedown probably can't either.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:04 PM on June 13, 2023 [6 favorites]

Maybe this is more a MetaTalk question than a question for this thread, but: has the classified documents fiasco been honored with the customary MeFi William Carlos Williams send-up yet? "This Is Just to Say . . . "
posted by kensington314 at 12:05 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

has the classified documents fiasco been honored with the customary MeFi William Carlos Williams send-up yet? "This Is Just to Say . . . "

I don't know but there better be a good line about the documents in the bathroom.
posted by loquacious at 12:08 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

I really hope this comes up in the trial as evidence that he knew what he was doing...

Page 9 of the indictment is "TRUMP's Public Statements on Classified Information." It includes statements he made as a candidate and as president.
posted by mcdoublewide at 12:11 PM on June 13, 2023 [5 favorites]

the customary MeFi William Carlos Williams send-up
If you make one, there will be one. I don't believe there is a committee or designee for it!
posted by Glinn at 12:12 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

If you make one, there will be one. I don't believe there is a committee or designee for it!

I couldn't come up with one I liked. But also just curious for posterity's sake if it's come up anywhere previously.
posted by kensington314 at 12:13 PM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

I couldn't come up with one I liked.

But you literally know what you like!

All you have to do is jot down notes of what you'd want to see in such a parody, stare at them a bit, and move the parts around. Voila! You've created the one you like!
posted by hippybear at 12:17 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

What the hell, I'll take a crack at it:

I have put
the documents
in file boxes
by the toilet

and which
you were probably
hoping the
FBI wouldn't find

Forgive me
they're good reading
so secretive
and so nuclear
posted by May Kasahara at 12:20 PM on June 13, 2023 [44 favorites]

This is just to say
I have indicted the former President
Who was committing federal crimes

And who
You were probably
Planning to vote for in 2024

Forgive me
He was extremely careless
So obvious
And so guilty
posted by umber vowel at 12:20 PM on June 13, 2023 [37 favorites]

I really hope this comes up in the trial as evidence that he knew what he was doing was a felony specifically because he signed the damn law and they taunt and poke him with it like a hot iron over and over again.
posted by loquacious

I am totally opposed to the death penalty, even for this piece of complete shit.

But please tell me that his damn law introduced the possibility of that punishment for that crime. I just want to see the look on his face when he realises what he has done to himself.
posted by Pouteria at 12:24 PM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

so much depends
upon

a banker's
box

filled with
TOP SECRETS

under a bathroom
chandelier
posted by box at 12:31 PM on June 13, 2023 [32 favorites]

I just want to see the look on his face when he realises what he has done to himself.

You're assuming he would realize that. It'd be far more likely that he would believe until the very end that he was the victim of some weird coup. Kind of like how Saddam Hussein was backtalking to his own executioners.

....Yes, I'm aware I just compared Trump to Saddam Hussein.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:33 PM on June 13, 2023 [13 favorites]

Per NYT live feed, Nauta didn't enter a plea; he requested and received an extension for arraignment, which is set for June 27.

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!
posted by Flunkie at 12:53 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

Awww, they're now saying Nauta's extension was due to the fact that he needs (and apparently doesn't have) a local lawyer who will commit to the entire trial, rather than just to the arraignment.
posted by Flunkie at 1:04 PM on June 13, 2023

You're assuming he would realize that.

It is one thing to claim the law you introduced is being misused against you, that you are an completely innocent victim of unprecedented Deep State perfidy and corruption.

Quite another to say you did not introduce the law with your signature on it.

But maybe he really is that far gone.
posted by Pouteria at 1:14 PM on June 13, 2023

Boxes in the bathroom, please copy
The door's unlocked, do just feel free
Can I take you to a golf resort that's got top secrets?
You can commit treason while you are peeing

Boxes in the bathroom, free for lifting
Every single day you see me boldly grifting
Find no interest in the nation's health
Just ten thousand reflections of my own gross self
Self, self, self, self

Boxes in the bathroom
You're my boxes in the bathroom
You're my boxes in the bathroom
You're my boxes in the bathroom

Boxes in the bathroom, no defense
For all my crimes of great expense
all my statements make no sense
Drift quickly into mental illness
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:19 PM on June 13, 2023 [23 favorites]

(Is that to be sung to the tune of "Mirror in the Bathroom," 5_13_23_42_69_666?)
posted by wenestvedt at 1:28 PM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

absolutely
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 1:29 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

If I were Nauta, I would flip so hard and I would just keep flipping and flipping, but it might be that they don’t need his testimony because they have so much from his phone. It tends to be the case that prosecutors make less attractive offers to defendants against whom there is the most evidence.
posted by chrchr at 1:32 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

Little boxes in the bathroom
And they're all full of secret stuff
Little boxes in the ballroom
And they're all chock full of crime
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:35 PM on June 13, 2023 [7 favorites]

Quite another to say you did not introduce the law with your signature on it.

"That loser Mark Meadows (replace as appropriate) told me it was a good bill. He promised, he said, Sir, you have to sign this bill, otherwise the American People will be in danger. So I did, but it was, it- it was really his fault- totally in collusion with the deep state, it's very sad. Deep State Mark, we call him, don't we, everybody? What a loser."
posted by BungaDunga at 1:36 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

Pretty sure that loser Mark Meadows had tears in his eyes when he said this...
posted by Windopaene at 1:41 PM on June 13, 2023

Allowed to keep his passport; allowed to travel internationally.
posted by Flunkie at 1:42 PM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

Allowed to keep his passport; allowed to travel internationally.

Good. Let him fuck off out of this country. He can't run for president if he isn't here campaigning.
posted by hippybear at 1:48 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

LIttle boxes in the bathroom
Little boxes filled with secret intel
Little boxes in the bathroom
Little boxes, all the same
posted by emelenjr at 1:51 PM on June 13, 2023 [6 favorites]

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but at this point I'm honestly not sure that he would have all that much trouble running for the GOP nomination while on the lam in Russia or Saudi Arabia or wherever will have him.
posted by Flunkie at 1:53 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

Awww, they're now saying Nauta's extension was due to the fact that he needs (and apparently doesn't have) a local lawyer who will commit to the entire trial, rather than just to the arraignment.

Couldn't they have just assigned him a public defender? It's like not wearing handcuffs or preventing the taking of mugshots. It seems atypical to keep making special rules for Trump and his acolytes, but we keep doing it for some reason.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:59 PM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

It's almost like the American justice system treats the rich and powerful differently or something.
posted by kyrademon at 2:10 PM on June 13, 2023 [14 favorites]

"The magistrate overseeing the arraignment, Jonathan Goodman, ordered Trump not to discuss the case with his co-defendant, Walt Nauta, a personal aide. The judge said he understood that the two men must speak on a daily basis, but said anything related to the case must go through their lawyers."

This order gets broken by the end of the day, for sure.

(Wait, I'm not going to watch to find out, but he's going to incorporate witness tampering into tonight's rally speech itself: 'And they indicted poor Nauta. Poor loyal Nauta. But Nauta's gonna get up on that stand and [coordination of lies].')
posted by nobody at 2:15 PM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

It's almost like the American justice system treats the rich and powerful differently or something.

Separate rules for Trump I get as par for America circa 2016-present, it's granting those to his flunky that seems odd (mugshot aside), who is presumably not rich and/or powerful.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:21 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

I was vaguely listening to MSNBC, and after the hearing let out two people said something about 71 counts, or 71 somethings. I don't see that number on their website..
Any idea if that was just a mis-speaking? I was wondering if there were more counts.
posted by MtDewd at 2:23 PM on June 13, 2023

I'm not sure that it's really special treatment for Nauta (that he was able to postpone his indictment). I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it were, but:

My understanding is that in the USDC of Southern Florida, local attorneys who represent a client at the arraignment must commit to representing the client for the entire trial. Nauta is apparently looking for an attorney who is willing to do so, and really he hasn't had all that much time to do so.

I don't know exactly how this works, but I'm guessing maybe the court doesn't want to assign a public defender for the entire trial, given that Nauta isn't intending to go to trial with one.
posted by Flunkie at 2:29 PM on June 13, 2023

(also, I would guess the prosecution absolutely does not mind the delay in Nauta's case, as it just gives them more time to lean on him)
posted by Flunkie at 2:32 PM on June 13, 2023

Laura Jedeed is doing street level coverage at the courthouse. Covering the street-level madness in the same way she covered the Manhattan arraignment.

My "Trumpsters are not racists" T-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:32 PM on June 13, 2023

I was vaguely listening to MSNBC, and after the hearing let out two people said something about 71 counts, or 71 somethings. I don't see that number on their website..
Any idea if that was just a mis-speaking? I was wondering if there were more counts.

Trump currently has 71 counts against him, 37 being in this case and 34 being in the Manhattan case (i.e. Stormy Daniels, hush money).
posted by Flunkie at 2:34 PM on June 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

It's literally all the smartest people in the same room. Norm Onstein, Jen Taub, Wajahat Ali, Jen Rubin, and Brian Karen [and Mary Trump] all discuss the indictment and its details.
posted by hippybear at 2:54 PM on June 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think (or at least hope) that some of the special treatment comes from folks being especially careful to give that snake anything to latch onto. No one wants to have to deal with TFG more than once if they can avoid it.
posted by VTX at 3:00 PM on June 13, 2023

LOL, per NYT live feed (emphasis mine):

Donors are beginning to drift in at Bedminster. So are Trump allies, including Kash Patel, who worked as chief of staff at the Pentagon at the end of the Trump administration. Patel has been endorsing the idea that Trump declassified the documents, despite what prosecutors say.

... and despite what Trump said. On tape. Which the prosecutors have.
posted by Flunkie at 3:02 PM on June 13, 2023 [6 favorites]

Trumpsters are not racists

They aren't?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:00 PM on June 13, 2023

They aren't?

Check the first picture in the GP's link.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:15 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

Call me paranoid but I ain’t checking the URL under that.
posted by Artw at 4:31 PM on June 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

Generally speaking I'm not a fan of "you could tell by their body language", but I enjoyed reading this (NYT) nonetheless:

Mr. Trump’s body language in the courtroom suggested he understood the gravity of the situation. A former president who thrives on being in control seemed uncomfortable with having so little as a defendant.

posted by Flunkie at 4:55 PM on June 13, 2023

Ah yes, once again the NYT desperately trying to make him seem presidential.
posted by Melismata at 5:11 PM on June 13, 2023 [11 favorites]

Check the first picture in the GP's link.

I completely lost the plot at “I am the Lorax; I speak for the trees”.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 5:15 PM on June 13, 2023

"[It looked like] he understood the gravity of the situation", with "the situation" being he's a criminal defendant looking at the rest of his life in jail, and with him being famous for an almost comical lack of understanding that he's not invulnerable, doesn't really seem like a desperate attempt to make him seem presidential.
posted by Flunkie at 5:21 PM on June 13, 2023

Check the first picture in the GP's link.

Wonder when that fake military LARPer will hide his toy truck from the authorities.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:28 PM on June 13, 2023

Holy shit, that truck! They took the worst Jeep, added a couple of wheels out back, grafted some Hummer shit into the middle and topped it off with some dumbass Tesla truck aesthetic and named it "Apocalypse." So much time, effort and money in the service of something so stupid. Could anything be more emblematic of the Republican party?
posted by Floydd at 6:59 PM on June 13, 2023 [8 favorites]

Did you catch the pic of the tactical golf cart?
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:15 PM on June 13, 2023

that is known as a "heep"
posted by ryanrs at 1:06 AM on June 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

It’s so incredibly stupid looking I’m not sure if it’s entirely impossible that it’s something someone sold to law enforcement.
posted by Artw at 4:34 AM on June 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

Here's what I don't get because I'm dum:

So Very Stable Genius brought back some papers after his Washington DC gig. To sell secrets to the Saudis, to look for ideas for his memoirs, whatever.

If it were me, I'd say "That's a fuckton of papers" and turn to my "valet" Nauta and be like, "Walt. Take this shit to Kinkos and make PDFs and put everything on thumb drives and come home."

Then I'd send back the originals. Because the originals aren't dead sea scrolls written on fragile, millennia-old parchment. They aren't illuminated manuscripts rendered by the cramped, painstaking hands of medieval scribes. They're sheets of paper purchased at Staples printed on a Brother printer bought on Amazon.

It's the data that counts, not the physical media! The paper objects--apart from a wet-ink signature here and there--are irrelevant, and can be duplicated with infinite exactitude from PDFs!

I realize that the knee-jerk answer is "Only God can fathom the thought processes of Very Stable Genius," but am I missing something here?
posted by Gordion Knott at 5:13 AM on June 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

I realize that the knee-jerk answer is "Only God can fathom the thought processes of Very Stable Genius," but am I missing something here?

Remember back to those photos of him at his "work" desk, whether in the Oval Office or at TrumpCo. He always had piles of papers on them, because that's what he thinks being busy and important is. Papers are the only form of information that he recognizes, and having boxes of papers around to casually show people means that he's still important. He doesn't believe that it's as impressive to say "Here, look at this PDF on a tablet that this guy carries around for me."
posted by Etrigan at 5:32 AM on June 14, 2023 [16 favorites]

It's pretty much on record that the guy doesn't read. Having copies of the thing isn't the same as having the thing. He wants to show off that he has the thing. I'm not 100% sure he gets the value of someone actually reading what's in them. My guess is that his thought process is that he sees other peoples' reactions to the documents to be the same as his own: Would you look at that, the real, signed, Magna Carta! [whatever that is]! You are so amazing and powerful to have that!

So for me, whether he's smart or dumb is beside the point. He did dumb things. He wanted these documents that he didn't understand so badly that he was willing to potentially get himself thrown in jail (a threat that I also think he doesn't understand, precisely because he doesn't understand the documents). Copies of them would just have been reading material - and who wants that?
posted by Mchelly at 5:50 AM on June 14, 2023 [14 favorites]

It's the data that counts, not the physical media!

Somewhere I heard (I think maybe the Lawfare link above) that Trump's aides/assistants/minions would refer to the boxes as "His 'Beautiful Mind' papers." Which is a hell of a slur against J. Nash or simply very apt snark about Trump's own conception of his self-worth.
posted by From Bklyn at 6:23 AM on June 14, 2023

I suspect the staffers weren't thinking much of comparing the men themselves and more just referencing the fact that both were obsessed with a jumbled mess of papers, but I guess we don't know for sure.

(I think it was revealed via texts between staffers that appeared in the indictment)
posted by lampoil at 6:50 AM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

This WaPo editorial from last year digs into Trump's obsession with piles of paper.

There was also a story, maybe on Wonkette, of how Trump had an employee ride along with him while he was golfing, with a printer. Their job was to find positive articles and tweets about him and print them out, so he could look at them.
posted by hydrophonic at 7:49 AM on June 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

The DOJ Went Easy on Trump for Political Reasons

In reality, however, the notion that the DOJ is selectively prosecuting Trump for political reasons is not merely wrong but the very opposite of the truth: As a matter of fact, the federal government has been affording Trump extraordinary leniency, likely as a product of political considerations.
...
In January of last year, Trump returned 197 classified documents to the federal government. Despite his willfully retaining those documents for months, the federal indictment released last week does not charge Trump in connection with any of them — which is to say, the DOJ gave Trump a pass on 197 potential counts of willful retention of national defense information. Instead, it charged him with only 31 counts, each corresponding with a highly classified document that Trump knowingly withheld from the government in January 2022 and the FBI later obtained.
...
The sad, strange truth of Trump’s case is that the Justice Department tried to let him get away with a crime but the ex-president would not let it. Rather, he tore up his “get out of jail free” card so flamboyantly that the DOJ had little choice but to bring charges.

Marcy Wheeler: "Let's talk about all the conditions that Trump DOES NOT have to comply with that other accused criminals often do."

1) Stay in South Florida. Unlike most accused felons, Trump can hop in his jet and fly all over the world raising money.
2) Provide a DNA sample. Imagine if those who have accused Trump of sexual assault could know that prosecutors could check their dresses against Trump's DNA.
3) Turn in his passport.
4) Call his probation officer every week to assure her he was staying out of trouble.
5) Pee in a cup to see if he's abusing much adderall.
6) Get teated for alcohol abuse [Doesn't matter, he doesn't drink]
7) Get any mental illnesses diagnosed and treated.
8) and 9) Find a job that doesn't involve defrauding small donors.
10) Try to sell Truth Social.
11) Let his probation officer search his phone.

There are good reasons not to impose such restrictions on an accused criminal running for President. These are the release conditions DOJ asked for.

But when Trump claims to be a victim, remember how much leeway DOJ is giving him BECAUSE he is a political candidate.

posted by kirkaracha at 7:50 AM on June 14, 2023 [31 favorites]

In my limited understanding there's meticulous documentation of who's in possession of which classified documents, which is why the NARA knew all along that not all of them had been returned. Printouts of this or that intelligence report are just that — printouts of something that's stored in a secure government cloud, right? Trump might prefer having the hard copies on his desk or in boxes, but they're just copies.
posted by emelenjr at 8:09 AM on June 14, 2023

Let's not forget the Xerox machine visible in photos of the storage room.
posted by rebent at 9:26 AM on June 14, 2023

Let's not forget the Xerox machine visible in photos of the storage room.

We should, since that was a cement wall with some object behind it that looked like a hopper. If that were actually a copier, the feds would have absolutely seized it during the search to see if it had been used. It wasn’t in the search warrant receipt or in the indictment.
posted by Room 101 at 9:40 AM on June 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

He's cheap. Interested parties would've scanned documents with their phones.
Trump will keep list of White House visitors secret (Washington Post gift article, April 14, 2017). Visitor logs would be disclosed "as outlined under the Freedom of Information Act;" FOIA does not apply to the president or his immediate staff. (NPR, April 14, 2017)
"Lu Jing, 56, was the second Chinese national to be arrested for trespassing last year" at Mar-a-Lago (Reuters, Feb. 14, 2020)
Tracking turnover in the Trump administration (Brookings Institute, Jan. 2021)
Prosecutors pointed out that "tens of thousands of members and guests" visited the "active social club" at Mar-a-Lago for more than a year after Trump left the White House. (CBS, June 9, 2023)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:58 AM on June 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

Yes, the papers are trophies to him. A copy won't do.

And it pleases me that he would have fought the hardest to hold onto the most restricted and most secret documents, maximizing his legal exposure. Heh.
posted by ryanrs at 11:04 AM on June 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

The judge has ordered Trump that he may not discuss this case with people, including his co-defendant that he still works closely with and his lawyer who is a witness for the prosecution. [Vice]
posted by hippybear at 11:18 AM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

Oh, please tell me that the fact that he bloviated at a restaurant only minutes after leaving the courtroom was already a violation of that order.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:28 AM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

his lawyer who is a witness for the prosecution.

Going well when your own attorney seeks to disclose under the crime–fraud exception.
posted by jaduncan at 11:28 AM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]

More like he was required to disclose. He didn't volunteer for it.
posted by hippybear at 11:40 AM on June 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

W/r/t M. Evan Corcoran's notes and testimony, the exemption allows "disclosure of evidence containing attorney work-product or confidential attorney-client communications when a client consults an attorney for advice that will serve in furtherance of a crime." (ABA Journal)

Trump met with Attorney 1 [Corcoran] on May 23, 2022, to discuss a May 11 subpoena. According to the indictment (beginning at page 21), Attorney 1 memorialized these statements that Trump allegedly made, in sum and substance:

- “I don’t want anybody looking, I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes, I really don’t, I don’t want you looking through my boxes.”
- “Well what if we, what happens if we just don’t respond at all or don’t play ball with them?”
- “Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?”
- “Well look isn’t it better if there are no documents?”
- [A lawyer for former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton] did a great job. … He was the one who deleted all of her emails, the 30,000 emails, because they basically dealt with her scheduling and her going to the gym and her having beauty appointments. And he was great. And he, so she didn’t get in any trouble because he said that he was the one who deleted them.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:46 AM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

But when Trump claims

Stop right there, I already know it's going to be bullshit and I'm not going to waste my time or attention addressing the details. He knows it's bullshit, we know it's bullshit, that's all there really needs to be to it.

I'd like these stories better if they tried to delve into why Trump is making those claims, that he knows are bullshit, so what's his purpose in making them. We know the answer is to flood the zone with shit but it would better if that's what the reporting was. Give a headline something like, "Did Trump claim X because he thinks it's true?"
posted by VTX at 1:00 PM on June 14, 2023 [9 favorites]

The Lincoln Project just loves making videos for an audience of one.
posted by orange swan at 2:08 PM on June 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

#1. I just happened to have a delicious, delicious piece of cake on hand that I ate while reading the Trump indictment. This is roughly the first piece of cake I have eaten this year, so make of it what you will.

#2. Every competent intelligence agency in the world has undoubtedly had its way with all of Trumps papers, including all the ultra-top-secret ones. They have been just sitting there in relatively public areas of Mar-a-lago (and, presumably, Bedminster) or places like the storage room and bathroom that would be child's play for any semi-competent spy to break into.

There have been at a few suspicious characters caught bumbling around Mar-a-lago, but any actually competent spook agency would be in and out of there without anyone being the wiser. Also FYI it is completely vulnerable from hacking/internet/electronic device standpoint.

#3. Trump needs to be in the slammer today, right now, for contempt of court inr attacking/threatening the family of Jack Smith (specifically his wife).

He has done something similar in the NY case - the judge and judge's family in that case - and should be in the slammer for that as well.

Being in the slammer 2X over would be a very good place for him to be.

Frankly I don't understand why judges tolerate this type of attack in the justice system itself. I guess maybe because they are only giving his followers all the hints they need about who to attack vs making a direct threat of violence? Is there really any difference between the two for someone like Trump?
posted by flug at 2:59 PM on June 14, 2023 [5 favorites]

Thought this is both funny and insightful:

Biden Is So Inside Their Heads

The marvel of the moment for me is how Joe Biden can simultaneously be:
A doddering old man but also running the most corrupt crime family in the history of the universe;
Barely able to stay upright on his own two feet but an evil genius who has orchestrated a vast conspiracy with the Deep State to take down his chief political rival;
Inept and bungling but somehow managed to defeat the incumbent MAGA president, haul the United States into Marxism, and seize dictatorial powers.
This Biden guy is pretty amazing when you think about it.

posted by flug at 3:02 PM on June 14, 2023 [17 favorites]

flug: I just happened to have a delicious, delicious piece of cake on hand that I ate while reading the Trump indictment.

Were there any words written on it?
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:12 PM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

Via flug's TPM link: Jack Smith’s Backup Option

The legal uncertainties that surround bringing charges in Florida for dissemination of national-security secrets in Bedminster leaves open the possibility that charges might yet be brought in New Jersey—a backup plan of sorts for Smith. If Aileen Cannon, the Florida judge assigned to the case, were to seek to pocket-veto the charges before her by, say, scheduling the trial for after the 2024 presidential election, the special counsel would be able to sidestep her tactic by proceeding with charges in New Jersey.

In fact, the Miami indictment conspicuously excludes many facts surrounding Trump’s actions in Bedminster: what boxes were taken there, what they contained, how they were kept at the golf club. This silence suggests that there might be more to come from the famously hard-charging Smith and his team of prosecutors, who put together an otherwise highly detailed 49-page indictment.

I don't live all that far from Bedminster and wouldn't look forward to the same sort of circus that Miami saw yesterday descending on Newark, but at the same time, I'll get my order of disco fries in on the day that arraignment happens.
posted by May Kasahara at 3:48 PM on June 14, 2023 [7 favorites]

Somebody pointed out that all the witnesses mentioned in the indictment are Republicans, and hand picked Trump employees.

And I love all the links people are posting, so thanks.
posted by baegucb at 3:53 PM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

> Biden Is So Inside Their Heads

> The marvel of the moment for me is how Joe Biden can simultaneously be:
A doddering old man but also running the most corrupt crime family in the history of the universe;
Barely able to stay upright on his own two feet but an evil genius who has orchestrated a vast conspiracy with the Deep State to take down his chief political rival;
Inept and bungling but somehow managed to defeat the incumbent MAGA president, haul the United States into Marxism, and seize dictatorial powers.
> This Biden guy is pretty amazing when you think about it.

"Umberto Eco: A Practical List for Identifying Fascists"

The enemy is both weak and strong. “[…] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”

posted by sebastienbailard at 4:05 PM on June 14, 2023 [28 favorites]

The few Republicans I know seem to have absorbed two taking points. I’m not suggesting these are reasonable arguments and I don’t agree with their objections. I’m only sharing it to provide some insight into the state of GOP group think. First is that this is unfair because Hillary destroyed evidence in her classified docs case and was never prosecuted. The second is that the democrats want to make Trump a martyr so that Republicans will make him the nominee and this is the only way Biden can win a second term.
posted by interogative mood at 4:10 PM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

First is that this is unfair because Hillary destroyed evidence in her classified docs case and was never prosecuted.

Golly, if only someone that was interested in prosecuting Hillary had a hand in crafting policy for four years after the document destruction took place.
posted by LionIndex at 4:38 PM on June 14, 2023 [8 favorites]

The second is that the democrats want to make Trump a martyr so that Republicans will make him the nominee and this is the only way Biden can win a second term.

Check. fucking. mate.

How are you going to figure your way out of that one Republicans? MWA-HA-HA-HA
posted by polecat at 4:46 PM on June 14, 2023 [7 favorites]

Do a coup and overthrow democracy.
posted by Artw at 4:51 PM on June 14, 2023 [7 favorites]

By not paying attention to logic or reason just like always?
posted by VTX at 4:57 PM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

More like he was required to disclose. He didn't volunteer for it.

Iiiish. I would argue quite hard that he volunteered by correctly noting even Trump's incriminating statements.
posted by jaduncan at 6:34 PM on June 14, 2023

The second is that the democrats want to make Trump a martyr so that Republicans will make him the nominee and this is the only way Biden can win a second term.

Yes you see: it's the only way Sleepy Joe can win, except for trump wiping the floor with him.
posted by rhizome at 6:46 PM on June 14, 2023

from the "overheard on the construction site" department, i heard one guy telling his buddy "i don't think im'ma vote for trump... im'ma probably vote for desantis cuz if trump wins they're just gonna steal it from him again"
posted by glonous keming at 7:40 PM on June 14, 2023 [1 favorite]

On Friday, on Instagram and Twitter, Clinton posted a photo of herself in a black baseball hat that reads, in pink letters, “BUT HER EMAILS.” Said hat is a Dem fundraiser for Onward Together -- also promoted in Aug. 2022, the day after FBI searched Mar-a-Lago.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:01 PM on June 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.

“Our side” does this with Mr. Trump all the time too.
posted by chrchr at 8:27 PM on June 14, 2023 [6 favorites]

It’s the same logic about how the face masks that don’t work also block the flow of oxygen.
posted by SillyShepherd at 4:58 AM on June 15, 2023 [5 favorites]

“Our side” does this

There is a big difference between kinda dumb arguments trying to figure out exactly how much grift and how much incompetence is in Trump's DNA and the straight up cognitive dissonance that Fascism study is talking about.

Can we not casually get into the "both sides do it" junk for a change.
posted by cirhosis at 8:14 AM on June 15, 2023 [23 favorites]

Republicans are mostly closing ranks behind Trump. Again. Are they choosing “partisanship over country”? This framing actually underestimates how deep the rift is that defines the political conflict: Rightwingers have decided that they *are* the country, everyone else is an enemy. 1/

(Thread)
posted by Artw at 9:23 AM on June 15, 2023 [16 favorites]

“Our side” does this with Mr. Trump all the time too.

thx was wondering when i should start to feel bad about observing trump was smart about how to go about manipulating ppl
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:30 AM on June 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

This framing actually underestimates how deep the rift is that defines the political conflict: Rightwingers have decided that they *are* the country, everyone else is an enemy.

Well, yeah. Because that's been the primary messaging strategy for decades, because that's what legions of talk radio and TV pundits stress over and over, because that's what the base has been carefully indoctrinated to believe -- that any compromise, any negotiation, any hesitation to go for the throat is complete betrayal.

This week's example: the proposed House censure of Adam Schiff for, er, well, telling the truth. Using the Durham Report as a pretext, Anna Paulina Luna filed a privileged resolution to censure Schiff for "lying to Congress and to the American people" with his accusations towards Trump and, upon the Ethics Committee agreeing with that conclusion, personally fining him $16 million (that is not a typo) so as to make him repay half the cost of the "frivolous" Mueller Report.

Which is not only ridiculous on its face, but as GOP Rep. Thomas Massie noted, violates at least two Constitutional Amendments. The usual suspects flooded his phone lines and social media demanding that he follow his constituents' wishes anyway; his response was that he wasn't about to violate the Constitution just because a certain number of people told him to.

Out of the Republicans in the House, most of whom who are well aware that Schiff did nothing wrong, twenty voted with the Dems to table Luna's resolution. All twenty are now being targeted for primary opponents next year, including Massie, despite Massie clarifying that he'd be happy to vote for censure if they took out the ridiculous fine part. No matter; he's a RINO and a turncoat and a quisling and a Deep Stater and an enemy now, because disobeying the base and its mass media drivers gets you increasingly shunned. And that is why few dare to think independently.

(And in case anyone wondered if Massie was any of those things, he's also stated that he's considering entering some of Trump's purloined top-secret classified documents into the Congressional Record by reading them aloud on the floor of the House. He's a bird's turd. But like the proverbial blind pig, he does find an acorn once in a long while.)
posted by delfin at 6:05 PM on June 15, 2023 [17 favorites]

Surprise! Trump did not pick up the check after he promised to treat his fans at the Versailles restaurant in Miami.

It's hard to understand how millions of people can go collectively insane, but as you say, delfin, this has been going on for decades, and fascist cults are a fixture of modern society.
posted by mumimor at 12:02 AM on June 16, 2023 [9 favorites]

"Food for everyone!" as in, "[This restuarant has enough] food for everyone," not "[I am buying] food for everyone."

As Troy McClure would say, "Works On Contingency? No, Money Down!"
posted by Servo5678 at 5:04 AM on June 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

(That was Lionel Hutz, attorney at law, one of my favs!)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:43 AM on June 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

Oh for crying out loud, you're right. What a stupid mistake. In my defense, it's early here.
posted by Servo5678 at 5:47 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

You were close, it's still Phil Hartman! All his characters on The Simpsons are gold.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:49 AM on June 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

Truly, a fascinating mind.

Very Stable Genius

Trump is a very poorly trained meat-based Large Language Model.
posted by srboisvert at 7:55 AM on June 16, 2023 [10 favorites]

He has the best training. Beautiful stuff, the best. Engineers working on him had tears in their eyes, it was so perfect.
posted by migurski at 8:25 AM on June 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

The crazy thing about Trump and the Republicans is that despite all the investigations, hearings, indictments, convictions they have still collectively faced much less scrutiny than Hillary Clinton did for just two things - Benghazi & "her emails". It's pretty wild.
posted by srboisvert at 9:02 AM on June 16, 2023 [6 favorites]

The best! The best! No other Large Language Model has nearly so many hamberders!
posted by Flunkie at 1:53 PM on June 16, 2023

“Trump is a very poorly trained meat-based Large Language Model.”

They certainly have the same utter indifference to truth, almost as if its very existence was never part of their training.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:48 PM on June 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

I don't think that's really all that true. The current LLMs are indifferent to the truth in the sense that they're credulous. Trump is indifferent to the truth in the sense that he is quite often openly hostile to it.
posted by Flunkie at 7:08 PM on June 16, 2023 [5 favorites]

Pod Save America: Among Other Things, Hillary Clinton Reacts to Donald Trump's indictment

Hillary Clinton @ 44 min. -- Letitia James, Attorney General of New York State @ 107:40 -- CW: 2 Hellaciously long embedded ads to click through...
posted by y2karl at 7:46 AM on June 17, 2023

Correction: 2 Hellaciously long ads to tap through.
1st @ 20:16 -- 24:33 & 2nd @ 1:03:00 -- 1:07:36
posted by y2karl at 8:11 AM on June 17, 2023

Jack Smith's Steely-Eyed Gaze | The Bulwark Podcast
posted by Pendragon at 10:10 AM on June 19, 2023 [1 favorite]

Judge issues order that Trump keep quiet about disclosure of discovery material issued in classified documents case

Between this and the "You can't talk to your valet who is your co-defendant about this case", the prosecution is just feeding out rope and seeing if Trump can keep from tying a noose.
posted by hippybear at 12:07 PM on June 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

NYTimes article detailing the new defense(s) Trump's floated today on Fox News: Trump Says ‘Secret’ Document He Described on Tape Referred to News Clippings.

Held up against the audio recordings, it...is not convincing.
posted by nobody at 8:54 PM on June 19, 2023

Well, TFG'll always be the shoe in for.the lead in the upcoming AI A Face In The Crowd. Hell, just ditch the AI jazz and virtually cut-and-paste it out of the available YT found footage.
posted by y2karl at 9:31 PM on June 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

CNN has published the actual audio recording referenced in the indictment.
posted by ltl at 9:55 PM on June 26, 2023 [2 favorites]

Such a fragile and pathetic man in that recording. Still obsessed with getting digs in at Hillary Clinton. Such paranoia that they were all out to undermine him from the beginning.
posted by interogative mood at 12:31 AM on June 27, 2023

Such a fragile and pathetic man in that recording. Still obsessed with getting digs in at Hillary Clinton. Such paranoia that they were all out to undermine him from the beginning.

And clearly surrounding himself with people who directly pander to that fragility. The aide in the recording makes some really corny digs, and he eats it up.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:27 AM on June 27, 2023

It also gives some explanation for why he kept it, as he says "this wins my case". I have no idea what case it is that he thinks he wins, he definitely loses this case.
posted by mumimor at 6:19 AM on June 27, 2023

For context a book I had come out where Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mark Miley had claimed he had worked to stop Trump from attacking Iran following Trump’s defeat in November of 2020.

Trump is arguing that actually Miley came to him and wanted to attack Iran. These plans are his proof that it was Miley’s idea.
posted by interogative mood at 8:19 AM on June 27, 2023 [1 favorite]

$5 says Trump was whining about wanting to attack Iran and demanding to know why he couldn't, so Milley pulled out the war plan to demonstrate how not-easy a war would be.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2023 [11 favorites]

L A leading expert on far-right extremists explains how America fell into ‘The Age of Insurrection’
posted by Artw at 8:53 AM on July 8, 2023 [1 favorite]

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