So, how much do panhandlers make?
February 3, 2011 6:13 AM Subscribe
Ever wonder how much panhandlers make? Looks like about $8.50 an hour and an ice cream sammich.
This post was deleted for the following reason: self-linker -- cortex
PLEASE GOD I DON'T ASK YOUR HELP TOO OFTEN BUT PLEASE SMITE THOSE THAT USE THE WORD "SAMMICH". AMEN.
posted by josher71 at 6:30 AM on February 3, 2011 [23 favorites]
posted by josher71 at 6:30 AM on February 3, 2011 [23 favorites]
Three hours doesn't offer much in the way of accurate assessment. This isn't a very good article, and it's a really thin post.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 6:31 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 6:31 AM on February 3, 2011
Three hours doesn't offer much in the way of accurate assessment
Agreed. If this local news joker wants to get out there for a month and do this, I'll be happy to read that article.
I am very conflicted about pan handling - some days I'm very sympathetic, some days I feel like it is a public nuisance and should be illegal. (other days I want a cookie)
But this local-news-pan-handle-for-a-day* stunt is as old as the hills and the local-news equivalent of a trolly blog post about iPhone vs Android.
* or a morning if you're a lightweight.
posted by device55 at 6:36 AM on February 3, 2011 [5 favorites]
Agreed. If this local news joker wants to get out there for a month and do this, I'll be happy to read that article.
I am very conflicted about pan handling - some days I'm very sympathetic, some days I feel like it is a public nuisance and should be illegal. (other days I want a cookie)
But this local-news-pan-handle-for-a-day* stunt is as old as the hills and the local-news equivalent of a trolly blog post about iPhone vs Android.
* or a morning if you're a lightweight.
posted by device55 at 6:36 AM on February 3, 2011 [5 favorites]
Please note that Panhandle has a different meaning in English english.
posted by memebake at 6:40 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by memebake at 6:40 AM on February 3, 2011
PLEASE GOD I DON'T ASK YOUR HELP TOO OFTEN BUT PLEASE SMITE THOSE THAT USE THE WORD "SAMMICH". AMEN.
Heh. There's a local band where I live called Jam Sammich. I've never paid to see them play partly because of their name.
posted by Sailormom at 6:47 AM on February 3, 2011
Heh. There's a local band where I live called Jam Sammich. I've never paid to see them play partly because of their name.
posted by Sailormom at 6:47 AM on February 3, 2011
Please note that Panhandle has a different meaning in English english.
Doesn't all English english reference a penis in some way?
When you land at Heathrow and get on the tube at the terminal, the recorded voice of a woman comes on over the speakers and says:
"This is a Piccadily line train with service to Cockfosters"
I mean there are kids and old ladies on that train and everything.
posted by device55 at 6:50 AM on February 3, 2011 [7 favorites]
Doesn't all English english reference a penis in some way?
When you land at Heathrow and get on the tube at the terminal, the recorded voice of a woman comes on over the speakers and says:
"This is a Piccadily line train with service to Cockfosters"
I mean there are kids and old ladies on that train and everything.
posted by device55 at 6:50 AM on February 3, 2011 [7 favorites]
Is this guy seriously wearing a yellow safety vest? All the real panhandlers wear orange!
posted by orme at 6:52 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by orme at 6:52 AM on February 3, 2011
Yeah he needs to do this for at least a week, preferably a month, before he starts writing welfare-queen-esque pieces.
If I went out for a bike ride for two hours, and on that day I found a $20 bill, I don't think that means I earn $10 an hour whenever I ride my bike.
"And if I were keeping this instead of donating it to charity, I wouldn't be paying any taxes on it," I said, thinking about the situation. "Because I'm sure not going to be filing a W-2 for this."
Heh. He's quoting his thoughts? "Why doesn't he just write it down sans quote?" I thought.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 6:55 AM on February 3, 2011 [9 favorites]
If I went out for a bike ride for two hours, and on that day I found a $20 bill, I don't think that means I earn $10 an hour whenever I ride my bike.
"And if I were keeping this instead of donating it to charity, I wouldn't be paying any taxes on it," I said, thinking about the situation. "Because I'm sure not going to be filing a W-2 for this."
Heh. He's quoting his thoughts? "Why doesn't he just write it down sans quote?" I thought.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 6:55 AM on February 3, 2011 [9 favorites]
Please note that Panhandle has a different meaning in English english.
Did you mean that just as a bit of trivia, memebake, or were you suggesting people not use the word to signify its well-established definition because of some esoteric English slang?
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 6:55 AM on February 3, 2011
Did you mean that just as a bit of trivia, memebake, or were you suggesting people not use the word to signify its well-established definition because of some esoteric English slang?
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 6:55 AM on February 3, 2011
Did you mean that just as a bit of trivia, memebake, or were you suggesting people not use the word to signify its well-established definition because of some esoteric English slang?
Well, yeah the slang meaning is esoteric (people who read Viz might know it), but in general English people will just think of the handle of a pan when you say the word 'panhandle'. They certainly wont think of person with a sign asking for money.
posted by memebake at 6:59 AM on February 3, 2011
Well, yeah the slang meaning is esoteric (people who read Viz might know it), but in general English people will just think of the handle of a pan when you say the word 'panhandle'. They certainly wont think of person with a sign asking for money.
posted by memebake at 6:59 AM on February 3, 2011
Yeah, kinda stunty and not that interesting, except for this bit:
"I come out here and fly a sign and earn me some money so I can keep me a motel nightly. I average about, maybe, $43 a day and my motel room is $39. I get me something to eat and a bus pass, and I'm set."
Dude is paying $1200/month for a hotel room. If he could rent a room in a house, he'd have probably $800/month to spend on food, health insurance and whatever else he needed. Just goes to show how the deck is stacked against poor people. He can't save up enough for a security deposit to rent an apartment, nor could he pass the credit check if he did. I realize there's probably other issues at play (alcoholism, mental illness etc), but this is the one that jumped out at me.
posted by electroboy at 7:01 AM on February 3, 2011 [13 favorites]
"I come out here and fly a sign and earn me some money so I can keep me a motel nightly. I average about, maybe, $43 a day and my motel room is $39. I get me something to eat and a bus pass, and I'm set."
Dude is paying $1200/month for a hotel room. If he could rent a room in a house, he'd have probably $800/month to spend on food, health insurance and whatever else he needed. Just goes to show how the deck is stacked against poor people. He can't save up enough for a security deposit to rent an apartment, nor could he pass the credit check if he did. I realize there's probably other issues at play (alcoholism, mental illness etc), but this is the one that jumped out at me.
posted by electroboy at 7:01 AM on February 3, 2011 [13 favorites]
Nah, he just needs to try harder, because when I've tried harder I was lavishly rewarded, and certainly so will he.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:07 AM on February 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:07 AM on February 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Hmmmm. The OED doesn't mention erections, but the other usage goes back to the 1890s at least (and is more or less confined to the US). It seems to derive from "working the panhandle," meaning begging or doing occasional labor. While Texas and Oklahoma have the most notable panhandles (geographically, you gutterminds!) these days, apparently the term was first applied to parts of Virginia. Maybe these areas were more rural, so you might get a meal for doing some day labor? Anyway, that's about it for the OED, although it does have this charming reference:
1908 J. M. Sullivan Criminal Slang 17 Punk kid, a boy who begs and panhandles for yeggmen.
perhaps I shall put "panhandles for yeggmen" as my profession in my profile. That'll class up the joint!
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:11 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
1908 J. M. Sullivan Criminal Slang 17 Punk kid, a boy who begs and panhandles for yeggmen.
perhaps I shall put "panhandles for yeggmen" as my profession in my profile. That'll class up the joint!
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:11 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Years ago, I was in charge of my company's office move. We were building our a new office space, including running a ton of wires all over the place. The contractor doing that part of the project was overbooked and short on labor. He drove into Boston and stopped at every panhandler, and asked if they wanted to run cable for him for the day, getting minimum wage and lunch. To a one, they all said no thanks, that they could do better begging for change.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:12 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 7:12 AM on February 3, 2011
It depends on how much sympathy you can generate. Toronto's Shaky Lady probably made six figures each year.
posted by orange swan at 7:21 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by orange swan at 7:21 AM on February 3, 2011
The contractor doing that part of the project was overbooked and short on labor. He drove into Boston and stopped at every panhandler, and asked if they wanted to run cable for him for the day, getting minimum wage and lunch. To a one, they all said no thanks, that they could do better begging for change.
and you fired the contractor after he told this story, right? because if he thought he could pay homeless drug addicts minimum wage to run cable, who do you think he paid to do the rest of the work?
posted by ennui.bz at 7:32 AM on February 3, 2011 [4 favorites]
and you fired the contractor after he told this story, right? because if he thought he could pay homeless drug addicts minimum wage to run cable, who do you think he paid to do the rest of the work?
posted by ennui.bz at 7:32 AM on February 3, 2011 [4 favorites]
Any discussion of panhandlers and how much they bring in - particularly stories like the contractor looking to offer them work - can't ignore the fact that the homeless are, statistically, most likely to be the mentally ill who were dumped out of institutions.
I don't have my copy of Pete Earley's CRAZY here which had the citation, but as I recall it was better than 50% had mental issues. Discussing these people's lives as if they're simply making a choice - which is reinforced by their one data point of an actual panhandler, the ex-con across the road from the reporter - overlooks the reality of the landscape here.
Earley's book is particularly relevant for the linked news story since the investigative reporting section was done in my home town of Miami, just a five hour drive from Tampa and operating under the same state rules & finances for getting mental care to the indigent. Florida's numbers of incarcerated (and not helped) mentally ill folks are greater than most states.
posted by phearlez at 7:54 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
I don't have my copy of Pete Earley's CRAZY here which had the citation, but as I recall it was better than 50% had mental issues. Discussing these people's lives as if they're simply making a choice - which is reinforced by their one data point of an actual panhandler, the ex-con across the road from the reporter - overlooks the reality of the landscape here.
Earley's book is particularly relevant for the linked news story since the investigative reporting section was done in my home town of Miami, just a five hour drive from Tampa and operating under the same state rules & finances for getting mental care to the indigent. Florida's numbers of incarcerated (and not helped) mentally ill folks are greater than most states.
posted by phearlez at 7:54 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
Drug what??
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:55 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:55 AM on February 3, 2011
... in reference to
homeless drug addicts minimum wage to run cable
posted by ennui.bz a
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:57 AM on February 3, 2011
homeless drug addicts minimum wage to run cable
posted by ennui.bz a
posted by CautionToTheWind at 7:57 AM on February 3, 2011
I don't have my copy of Pete Earley's CRAZY here which had the citation, but as I recall it was better than 50% had mental issues.
We ran into a friend who's a homeless outreach nurse last night, and she confirmed that the overwhelming majority are mentally ill and medicate with drugs or alcohol.
They also help some of their patients with money management (not sure of the mechanism), and she said that it gets really difficult when they accumulate any amount of money since it allows them to go on massive benders that usually result in arrest or hospitalization.
posted by electroboy at 8:08 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
We ran into a friend who's a homeless outreach nurse last night, and she confirmed that the overwhelming majority are mentally ill and medicate with drugs or alcohol.
They also help some of their patients with money management (not sure of the mechanism), and she said that it gets really difficult when they accumulate any amount of money since it allows them to go on massive benders that usually result in arrest or hospitalization.
posted by electroboy at 8:08 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
What? They don’t make six figures and drive off in a BMW at the end of the day? The research is obviously flawed.
posted by cilantro at 8:10 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by cilantro at 8:10 AM on February 3, 2011
The summation from the relevant Straight Dope report:
In short, it's pretty hard to get good data on the issue. Michael Scott summarized matters as well as anyone: "Most evidence confirms that panhandling is not lucrative, although some panhandlers clearly are able to subsist on a combination of panhandling money, government benefits, private charity, and money from odd jobs such as selling scavenged materials or plasma." If I were you, I'd keep my day job.
posted by Iridic at 8:31 AM on February 3, 2011
In short, it's pretty hard to get good data on the issue. Michael Scott summarized matters as well as anyone: "Most evidence confirms that panhandling is not lucrative, although some panhandlers clearly are able to subsist on a combination of panhandling money, government benefits, private charity, and money from odd jobs such as selling scavenged materials or plasma." If I were you, I'd keep my day job.
posted by Iridic at 8:31 AM on February 3, 2011
It depends on how much sympathy you can generate. Toronto's Shaky Lady probably made six figures each year.
Anecdotes from a Free Republic message board aren't exactly the gold standard of substantiative debate. These are the same people that have conclusive *proof!* that the President is a Seekrit Muslim, etc. etc.
Years ago, I was in charge of my company's office move. We were building our a new office space, including running a ton of wires all over the place. The contractor doing that part of the project was overbooked and short on labor. He drove into Boston and stopped at every panhandler, and asked if they wanted to run cable for him for the day, getting minimum wage and lunch. To a one, they all said no thanks, that they could do better begging for change.
This is not a true story. Or it is the story of the world's worst candidate for being in charge of an office move hiring the world's worst contractor. My money's on the former.
posted by Shepherd at 9:01 AM on February 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
Anecdotes from a Free Republic message board aren't exactly the gold standard of substantiative debate. These are the same people that have conclusive *proof!* that the President is a Seekrit Muslim, etc. etc.
Years ago, I was in charge of my company's office move. We were building our a new office space, including running a ton of wires all over the place. The contractor doing that part of the project was overbooked and short on labor. He drove into Boston and stopped at every panhandler, and asked if they wanted to run cable for him for the day, getting minimum wage and lunch. To a one, they all said no thanks, that they could do better begging for change.
This is not a true story. Or it is the story of the world's worst candidate for being in charge of an office move hiring the world's worst contractor. My money's on the former.
posted by Shepherd at 9:01 AM on February 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
I acknowledge the urban legend aspect of this, but I'm sure I read a story in the Baltimore Sun about someone who worked in the downtown business district and panhandled on his lunch break. I think his employer was trying to fire him over it and he was fighting it, claiming that what he did on his lunch break was his own business.
posted by electroboy at 10:29 AM on February 3, 2011
posted by electroboy at 10:29 AM on February 3, 2011
I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure there was the mendicant who appeared to have advanced leprosy and psoriasis who at the end of every day stood up, sloughed off his entire skin and stepped, pinkly naked and perfect, into a Lear Jet, hooking a glass of champagne from the hand of a stewardess with an uncanny resemblance to Erin Gray on the way.
posted by DNye at 10:41 AM on February 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by DNye at 10:41 AM on February 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Anecdotes from a Free Republic message board aren't exactly the gold standard of substantiative debate. These are the same people that have conclusive *proof!* that the President is a Seekrit Muslim, etc. etc.
That was the best link I could find as the story is so old, but the Shaky Lady really was a con raking it in. I saw her myself back in the day and I've spoken with a newspaper photographer who covered the story. A reporter sat and watched her all one day as people lined up to tuck twenties into her hand and he also talked to police and people who worked in the area. Then at the end of the day he watched her get up, stop shaking, run swiftly down an alley and get into a Lumina. Later he discovered she was living in Scarborough, and visited her in her apartment, which was furnished with leather couches and a big screen TV. After the exposé on her was published, she hired a Bay Street lawyer to do some image control (panhandling isn't illegal and there was nothing she could be charged with). She claimed her tremors were the result of a medical condition, but doctors who have seen video of her have said that was bogus, that tremors from the condition she claimed to have would be fine, not gross as hers were.
Since the story broke about ten years ago the attempts the Shaky Lady has made to do more panhandling in Toronto and in Montreal have been unsuccessful as it never takes long for someone to recognize her and call the press or warn others. And she's assaulted members of the media or other people who try to expose her — in at least one case she's been charged with assault.
I do believe that she's atypical. Most panhandlers don't make anything near what she did, and most are mentally ill and/or have substance abuse issues, and are genuinely in dire straits. However, giving them money is at best a bandaid solution and at worst enabling them in their self-destructive habits. There are LOADS of programs set up to help the homeless in Toronto and they need to use them if they're serious about bettering their lives. I do occasionally give change to someone if I think he or she deserves the benefit of the doubt, but generally I think it's better not to.
posted by orange swan at 10:55 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
That was the best link I could find as the story is so old, but the Shaky Lady really was a con raking it in. I saw her myself back in the day and I've spoken with a newspaper photographer who covered the story. A reporter sat and watched her all one day as people lined up to tuck twenties into her hand and he also talked to police and people who worked in the area. Then at the end of the day he watched her get up, stop shaking, run swiftly down an alley and get into a Lumina. Later he discovered she was living in Scarborough, and visited her in her apartment, which was furnished with leather couches and a big screen TV. After the exposé on her was published, she hired a Bay Street lawyer to do some image control (panhandling isn't illegal and there was nothing she could be charged with). She claimed her tremors were the result of a medical condition, but doctors who have seen video of her have said that was bogus, that tremors from the condition she claimed to have would be fine, not gross as hers were.
Since the story broke about ten years ago the attempts the Shaky Lady has made to do more panhandling in Toronto and in Montreal have been unsuccessful as it never takes long for someone to recognize her and call the press or warn others. And she's assaulted members of the media or other people who try to expose her — in at least one case she's been charged with assault.
I do believe that she's atypical. Most panhandlers don't make anything near what she did, and most are mentally ill and/or have substance abuse issues, and are genuinely in dire straits. However, giving them money is at best a bandaid solution and at worst enabling them in their self-destructive habits. There are LOADS of programs set up to help the homeless in Toronto and they need to use them if they're serious about bettering their lives. I do occasionally give change to someone if I think he or she deserves the benefit of the doubt, but generally I think it's better not to.
posted by orange swan at 10:55 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've watched panhandlers do shift changes.
Sitting in traffic at the onramp, I watched the current guy on the ramp look across the street where another dude showed up. New guy grabs a sign from the bushes behind the bus stop, current guy gathers his stuff and heads across the street. They give each other a nod, current guy stashes his sign in the bushes and walks off. New guy goes to the onramp and starts doing his thing.
Um, yeah. If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
The local university paper did an expose about the onramp panhandlers, they reported their income at about $10/hr (tax-free) and the panhandlers had apartments and such.
Obviously there will be some truly needy people mixed in, but I choose to support them through shelters and such. Many (most?) panhandlers are just scams/lazy people.
posted by jpeacock at 11:42 AM on February 3, 2011
Sitting in traffic at the onramp, I watched the current guy on the ramp look across the street where another dude showed up. New guy grabs a sign from the bushes behind the bus stop, current guy gathers his stuff and heads across the street. They give each other a nod, current guy stashes his sign in the bushes and walks off. New guy goes to the onramp and starts doing his thing.
Um, yeah. If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
The local university paper did an expose about the onramp panhandlers, they reported their income at about $10/hr (tax-free) and the panhandlers had apartments and such.
Obviously there will be some truly needy people mixed in, but I choose to support them through shelters and such. Many (most?) panhandlers are just scams/lazy people.
posted by jpeacock at 11:42 AM on February 3, 2011
When work is available for the asking for anyone that wants it and we still see the same behavior I'll be happier to entertain the scam/laziness aspect.
posted by josher71 at 11:46 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by josher71 at 11:46 AM on February 3, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've watched panhandlers do shift changes.
...
Um, yeah. If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
....
Many (most?) panhandlers are just scams/lazy people.
Hooray for anecdata!
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 12:16 PM on February 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
...
Um, yeah. If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
....
Many (most?) panhandlers are just scams/lazy people.
Hooray for anecdata!
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 12:16 PM on February 3, 2011 [3 favorites]
Wasn't expecting to see this on the Blue. Have some local background.
In June last year, St. Petersburg passed a complete ban on panhandling. They also did other lovely things like slashing homeless tents up. Why that happened I don't know - maybe homelessness is a bigger issue on the other side of the bay. I have no idea. I didn't learn about this until afterwards, when everyone shifted their panhandling operations over to Tampa.
Before the ban we'd had some people out there with signs, but not many. Usually it'd be newspaper sellers or firemen doing boot drives, that sort of thing. Now they are everywhere. Every major intersection where the cars stack up, you see it.
It's not a big move to make, across the bay, if you live out of a motel and can fit everything you own into a backpack. I don't know where they get the orange vests, but they all have them. Some have gotten into fights and been arrested, arguing over whose spot on a sidewalk it is. There are a few (apocryphical, I can't find sources) stories about people in cars getting harassed. I haven't seen any of that - the ones I've seen have been pretty chill and, occasionally, hilarious. The guy with the TOO UGLY TO BE A DANCER sign was my favorite.
One turned out to be a WWII vet. People wrote to the news about him, and with the donations and the pension he's suddenly eligible for, I think he'll be all right.
Now Tampa's looking to do the same thing as St. Pete, a blanket ban on any form of begging at streetcorners. Where they will go if that happens, I do not know.
As for what I think about them, Tom Waits said it better -- "begging on the freeway's about as hard as it gets." I've done some volunteering at a place that runs a soup kitchen and clothes-closet. It's worse in summer, because of the heat and the mosquitoes. Haven't yet found a place that'll donate travel-sized bug spray in bulk, and things like encephalitis and West Nile aren't unknown around here. I doubt anyone is out there because they want to be, especially in August when it hits a hundred in the shade.
posted by cmyk at 12:20 PM on February 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
In June last year, St. Petersburg passed a complete ban on panhandling. They also did other lovely things like slashing homeless tents up. Why that happened I don't know - maybe homelessness is a bigger issue on the other side of the bay. I have no idea. I didn't learn about this until afterwards, when everyone shifted their panhandling operations over to Tampa.
Before the ban we'd had some people out there with signs, but not many. Usually it'd be newspaper sellers or firemen doing boot drives, that sort of thing. Now they are everywhere. Every major intersection where the cars stack up, you see it.
It's not a big move to make, across the bay, if you live out of a motel and can fit everything you own into a backpack. I don't know where they get the orange vests, but they all have them. Some have gotten into fights and been arrested, arguing over whose spot on a sidewalk it is. There are a few (apocryphical, I can't find sources) stories about people in cars getting harassed. I haven't seen any of that - the ones I've seen have been pretty chill and, occasionally, hilarious. The guy with the TOO UGLY TO BE A DANCER sign was my favorite.
One turned out to be a WWII vet. People wrote to the news about him, and with the donations and the pension he's suddenly eligible for, I think he'll be all right.
Now Tampa's looking to do the same thing as St. Pete, a blanket ban on any form of begging at streetcorners. Where they will go if that happens, I do not know.
As for what I think about them, Tom Waits said it better -- "begging on the freeway's about as hard as it gets." I've done some volunteering at a place that runs a soup kitchen and clothes-closet. It's worse in summer, because of the heat and the mosquitoes. Haven't yet found a place that'll donate travel-sized bug spray in bulk, and things like encephalitis and West Nile aren't unknown around here. I doubt anyone is out there because they want to be, especially in August when it hits a hundred in the shade.
posted by cmyk at 12:20 PM on February 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sitting in traffic at the onramp, I watched the current guy on the ramp look across the street where another dude showed up. New guy grabs a sign from the bushes behind the bus stop, current guy gathers his stuff and heads across the street. They give each other a nod, current guy stashes his sign in the bushes and walks off. New guy goes to the onramp and starts doing his thing.
Um, yeah. If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
You call it a shift change. It is also possibly an uneasy detente between two people who have worked out a way to avoid beating the shit out of each other over use of a corner. Because that also happens - territorial behavior over a location, either because it's lucrative or because someone has developed an attachment.
The ability to work out a peaceful solution - for the one day you observed - doesn't indicate someone it mentally together enough to function properly in society.
Seriously, if you give at all a shit about crime and the mentally ill in US society you owe it to yourself to read CRAZY. It is an amazing peek into a subculture we live with the repercussions of but don't see.
posted by phearlez at 12:43 PM on February 3, 2011
Um, yeah. If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
You call it a shift change. It is also possibly an uneasy detente between two people who have worked out a way to avoid beating the shit out of each other over use of a corner. Because that also happens - territorial behavior over a location, either because it's lucrative or because someone has developed an attachment.
The ability to work out a peaceful solution - for the one day you observed - doesn't indicate someone it mentally together enough to function properly in society.
Seriously, if you give at all a shit about crime and the mentally ill in US society you owe it to yourself to read CRAZY. It is an amazing peek into a subculture we live with the repercussions of but don't see.
posted by phearlez at 12:43 PM on February 3, 2011
Um, yeah. If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
Or you're an alcoholic and part of a bottle gang that raises just enough money to get drunk, and does it person by person because your cirrhosis is so critical that you can't stand for more than an hour without collapsing. And you're an alcoholic because your treating yourself for an untreated chronic mental illness.
There's a lot of assumptions in your shift change scenario.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:40 PM on February 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
Or you're an alcoholic and part of a bottle gang that raises just enough money to get drunk, and does it person by person because your cirrhosis is so critical that you can't stand for more than an hour without collapsing. And you're an alcoholic because your treating yourself for an untreated chronic mental illness.
There's a lot of assumptions in your shift change scenario.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:40 PM on February 3, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you're doing shift changes, you're not desperate, you're just choosing to beg instead of work.
Because jobs are super-easy to find! There are jobs for everyone!
Remember, folks, if you try to be orderly and co-operative with your fellow beggars while begging, you just need more BOOTSTRAPS!
I mean, for fuck's sake. Talk with your local Spare Change or Street News seller. Those folks work hard.
No, they're not going to say "Yes!" to some random offer of employment from some dude who says "Oh, you'll lay cable" because they don't know what the fuck his deal is, any more than you would say "Yes!" to some random offer of employment from a stranger who came and walked around your office promising you twice what you earned--even if that scenario described upthread really happened, which I doubt.
You can't be fired from your panhandling job for being drunk or having hallucinations, whereas the best case scenario for the hypothetical "Come lay cable" job is that there would really be a job there, that the guy would really pay you at the end of the day, and that you wouldn't get fired or injure yourself because of your physical and/or cognitive impairments.
The "Go pretend to be homeless for a couple of hours" is the wintertime equivalent of "Go fry an egg on the sidewalk" of lazy journalism.
In conclusion, everyone needs to watch Sullivan's Travels again.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:23 PM on February 3, 2011
Because jobs are super-easy to find! There are jobs for everyone!
Remember, folks, if you try to be orderly and co-operative with your fellow beggars while begging, you just need more BOOTSTRAPS!
I mean, for fuck's sake. Talk with your local Spare Change or Street News seller. Those folks work hard.
No, they're not going to say "Yes!" to some random offer of employment from some dude who says "Oh, you'll lay cable" because they don't know what the fuck his deal is, any more than you would say "Yes!" to some random offer of employment from a stranger who came and walked around your office promising you twice what you earned--even if that scenario described upthread really happened, which I doubt.
You can't be fired from your panhandling job for being drunk or having hallucinations, whereas the best case scenario for the hypothetical "Come lay cable" job is that there would really be a job there, that the guy would really pay you at the end of the day, and that you wouldn't get fired or injure yourself because of your physical and/or cognitive impairments.
The "Go pretend to be homeless for a couple of hours" is the wintertime equivalent of "Go fry an egg on the sidewalk" of lazy journalism.
In conclusion, everyone needs to watch Sullivan's Travels again.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:23 PM on February 3, 2011
And, yes, I am sure there are con artists among people who panhandle for a living. In a world with Bernie Madoff and Ken Lay and James Frey, I'm sure there are con artists in every professional arena.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:24 PM on February 3, 2011
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:24 PM on February 3, 2011
If panhandlers cleaned themselves up, got a shave and a haircut, wore better clothes, got their teeth fixed, spoke proper english and bought a good car and nice house to live in, they would not need to stand by the onramp all day begging for money for a bottle, a bus pass and a hotel. It is 100% their fault.
posted by Dr. Curare at 6:34 PM on February 3, 2011
posted by Dr. Curare at 6:34 PM on February 3, 2011
I'm not gonna lie... I need money for beer.
Seriously. Please help.
posted by XhaustedProphet at 7:18 PM on February 3, 2011
Seriously. Please help.
posted by XhaustedProphet at 7:18 PM on February 3, 2011
If panhandlers cleaned themselves up...
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:34 PM on February 3
...and if you got some ethics, you'd be a fully-functioning human being.
posted by goethean at 8:06 AM on February 4, 2011
posted by Dr. Curare at 8:34 PM on February 3
...and if you got some ethics, you'd be a fully-functioning human being.
posted by goethean at 8:06 AM on February 4, 2011
and bought a good car and nice house to live in
I am pretty sure you missed some industrial-grade sarcasm there, goethean.
posted by phearlez at 8:41 AM on February 4, 2011
I am pretty sure you missed some industrial-grade sarcasm there, goethean.
posted by phearlez at 8:41 AM on February 4, 2011
Looks like I struck a chord :)
The Spare Change people are great, I do give them money. They've made an effort to do the right thing, and I totally support that.
The people expecting a free handout? No, I don't support them.
Anecdotal evidence? it ain't anecdotal for me, I've seen so many scams it's ruined any sympathy/pity that I had. "car out of gas" "on a road trip, car broken into, everything stolen" "need money for the bus" It's a scam when you see the same guy asking for gas money every night, or the same broken-into car in different parking lots, or the bus money guy never actually getting on the bus.
I'm not going to support anyone's drug/alcohol/laziness/scam habits, and the worst you can do is give them money directly. You're just enabling them without solving any problems.
Donate to to your local charities and shelters, they're the professionals that know how to provide the necessary services and help those who are able to bootstrap themselves, and provide essential minimal care for those who can't bootstrap themselves. Support the needle exchanges, the tent cities, the blanket distribution, the neighborhood clinics, the job training centers, and the day-laborer agencies.
posted by jpeacock at 11:40 PM on February 5, 2011
The Spare Change people are great, I do give them money. They've made an effort to do the right thing, and I totally support that.
The people expecting a free handout? No, I don't support them.
Anecdotal evidence? it ain't anecdotal for me, I've seen so many scams it's ruined any sympathy/pity that I had. "car out of gas" "on a road trip, car broken into, everything stolen" "need money for the bus" It's a scam when you see the same guy asking for gas money every night, or the same broken-into car in different parking lots, or the bus money guy never actually getting on the bus.
I'm not going to support anyone's drug/alcohol/laziness/scam habits, and the worst you can do is give them money directly. You're just enabling them without solving any problems.
Donate to to your local charities and shelters, they're the professionals that know how to provide the necessary services and help those who are able to bootstrap themselves, and provide essential minimal care for those who can't bootstrap themselves. Support the needle exchanges, the tent cities, the blanket distribution, the neighborhood clinics, the job training centers, and the day-laborer agencies.
posted by jpeacock at 11:40 PM on February 5, 2011
I think you touched a nerve more than struck a chord.... but I think either way the striking/touching part was the argument that any two people who could organise and maintain a rough schedule for occupation of a single spot were ipso facto fit to work. If you want to adumbrate the strength of your case, I'd defend the point which people took issue with, rather than adding detail to the parts they didn't. Nobody, I think, was very pissed off at the idea of donating to local shelters.
posted by DNye at 5:14 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by DNye at 5:14 AM on February 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Anecdotal evidence? it ain't anecdotal for me
Yes it is.
However...
Donate to to your local charities and shelters...Support the needle exchanges, the tent cities, the blanket distribution, the neighborhood clinics, the job training centers, and the day-laborer agencies.
...I will agree with you on this.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 4:56 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yes it is.
However...
Donate to to your local charities and shelters...Support the needle exchanges, the tent cities, the blanket distribution, the neighborhood clinics, the job training centers, and the day-laborer agencies.
...I will agree with you on this.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 4:56 PM on February 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Thanks for the good feedback, DNye and CitrusFreak12.
posted by jpeacock at 6:36 PM on February 6, 2011
posted by jpeacock at 6:36 PM on February 6, 2011
I think either way the striking/touching part was the argument that any two people who could organise and maintain a rough schedule for occupation of a single spot were ipso facto fit to work.
Exactly right. Yes, monetary handouts are the least good way to help anyone out on the street. I don't ever give money to people begging or scamming.
But dismissing these folks as competent to solve their own problems impedes the desperate need our society has to find real lasting solutions for the homeless problem. You don't have to be a gibbering nut to be too disturbed to hold down a straight job any more than you need to be obviously visibly disabled to be impeded enough to need handicapped parking.
posted by phearlez at 6:21 AM on February 7, 2011
Exactly right. Yes, monetary handouts are the least good way to help anyone out on the street. I don't ever give money to people begging or scamming.
But dismissing these folks as competent to solve their own problems impedes the desperate need our society has to find real lasting solutions for the homeless problem. You don't have to be a gibbering nut to be too disturbed to hold down a straight job any more than you need to be obviously visibly disabled to be impeded enough to need handicapped parking.
posted by phearlez at 6:21 AM on February 7, 2011
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posted by empath at 6:16 AM on February 3, 2011