This Time It Will Be Different
August 22, 2011 12:55 PM Subscribe
"A sort of PC": how Windows 8 will invade tablets (and why it might work). 'For the first time in fifteen or more years, Redmond faces a genuine challenge to its Windows desktop monopoly.''The decision to call, or not to call, a tablet a "PC" goes beyond mere branding. It influences the entire approach that Microsoft takes. It colors the user interface design, the sales model, the hardware requirements, the options available to system integrators.'
'Still, this tablet-as-a-PC model hasn't worked well despite 20 years of trying. Microsoft's decision to stick with it might look like a mistake—why would this approach start working now when it hasn't before?—but signs suggest it might be more successful this time around.'
'Microsoft appears to have made a key assumption: that the PC can bring useful things to tablet users, who will be better off with a PC-based tablet than a post-PC one. That's coupled with the assumption that this value can be provided without compromising the virtues of either the post-PC or the PC.'
'So when Windows 8 is eventually released, the value proposition could: you can get an iPad, which is great for Web browsing, light e-mail, watching movies, and playing Angry Birds. Or you can get a Windows 8 tablet which can do all that, but which you can also use to write your resumé, or crunch those numbers that the office sent for your big presentation tomorrow, or play Flash games on Kongregate. Done well, that's compelling. Why would you go for the lesser device?'
'If Microsoft is right in believing that people don't actually want limitations, and that they've been forced into those compromises because the iPad is the only device giving them the ease of use they're after, Windows 8 will be triumphant. Given the choice between tablets that offer the full power of the PC and tablets that don't, the PC ones could well win out. But that's still a big "if."'
'Still, this tablet-as-a-PC model hasn't worked well despite 20 years of trying. Microsoft's decision to stick with it might look like a mistake—why would this approach start working now when it hasn't before?—but signs suggest it might be more successful this time around.'
'Microsoft appears to have made a key assumption: that the PC can bring useful things to tablet users, who will be better off with a PC-based tablet than a post-PC one. That's coupled with the assumption that this value can be provided without compromising the virtues of either the post-PC or the PC.'
'So when Windows 8 is eventually released, the value proposition could: you can get an iPad, which is great for Web browsing, light e-mail, watching movies, and playing Angry Birds. Or you can get a Windows 8 tablet which can do all that, but which you can also use to write your resumé, or crunch those numbers that the office sent for your big presentation tomorrow, or play Flash games on Kongregate. Done well, that's compelling. Why would you go for the lesser device?'
'If Microsoft is right in believing that people don't actually want limitations, and that they've been forced into those compromises because the iPad is the only device giving them the ease of use they're after, Windows 8 will be triumphant. Given the choice between tablets that offer the full power of the PC and tablets that don't, the PC ones could well win out. But that's still a big "if."'
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
posted by nathancaswell at 1:01 PM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
posted by nathancaswell at 1:01 PM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
Or you can get a Windows 8 tablet which can do all that, but which you can also use to write your resumé, or crunch those numbers that the office sent for your big presentation tomorrow, or play Flash games on Kongregate. Done well, that's compelling. Why would you go for the lesser device?'
Hmm. There's plenty of document-writing apps for the iPad, including several that are sufficiently powerful to format a resume nicely - which, actually, is not perhaps the best example, since a resume is really not that demanding a document in terms of word processor functionality.
Crunch those numbers - well, that's kind of vague, so I won't address it.
Play Flash games on Kongregate? Well, okay, an iPad won't do that. But it'll play any number of games, several of which are kind of incredibly popular. I get what the author's going for, but let's be honest - casual gaming is one of the iPad's strengths; this is like saying "Why buy a bicycle, when you can get a motorcycle that's easy to park anywhere?"
Frankly, this whole "Oh, it's also a PC!" argument strikes me as utterly absurd. It's just another kind of computer, one that happens to have its own strengths and weaknesses due to its input type, weight, etc. Microsoft can, and should, be saying "Look, we can make a better tablet that isn't as limited," but trying to pretend that it's "not just a tablet" is laughable. It is a tablet! It's just a tablet running Windows instead of iOS. And "It runs Windows!" is not exactly a notion that makes many people all that excited.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:03 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hmm. There's plenty of document-writing apps for the iPad, including several that are sufficiently powerful to format a resume nicely - which, actually, is not perhaps the best example, since a resume is really not that demanding a document in terms of word processor functionality.
Crunch those numbers - well, that's kind of vague, so I won't address it.
Play Flash games on Kongregate? Well, okay, an iPad won't do that. But it'll play any number of games, several of which are kind of incredibly popular. I get what the author's going for, but let's be honest - casual gaming is one of the iPad's strengths; this is like saying "Why buy a bicycle, when you can get a motorcycle that's easy to park anywhere?"
Frankly, this whole "Oh, it's also a PC!" argument strikes me as utterly absurd. It's just another kind of computer, one that happens to have its own strengths and weaknesses due to its input type, weight, etc. Microsoft can, and should, be saying "Look, we can make a better tablet that isn't as limited," but trying to pretend that it's "not just a tablet" is laughable. It is a tablet! It's just a tablet running Windows instead of iOS. And "It runs Windows!" is not exactly a notion that makes many people all that excited.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:03 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm sure that Windows 8 Tablets will sell well once people who don't read Engadget start caring about feature checklists.
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
Tell that to my grandmother who is now on the internet for the first time.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [32 favorites]
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
Tell that to my grandmother who is now on the internet for the first time.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [32 favorites]
What's that often cited quotation about the definition of insanity? Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results?
It seems ludicrous to me to compete on the same turf as Apple at this point and it basically repeats where Apple and Microsoft were 20 years ago, except reversed. I don't think anyone will be able to compete with the IPad until a company with deep pockets basically gives tablets away. At this point, that's gonna be either Google or Amazon. Microsoft may be able to carve out a niche with Windows 8, but no one will be able to touch Apple's market depth until someone eats the cost of the hardware just to get a bunch of em out there.
posted by dave78981 at 1:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
It seems ludicrous to me to compete on the same turf as Apple at this point and it basically repeats where Apple and Microsoft were 20 years ago, except reversed. I don't think anyone will be able to compete with the IPad until a company with deep pockets basically gives tablets away. At this point, that's gonna be either Google or Amazon. Microsoft may be able to carve out a niche with Windows 8, but no one will be able to touch Apple's market depth until someone eats the cost of the hardware just to get a bunch of em out there.
posted by dave78981 at 1:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
I completely disagree.
We picked up an iPad 2 on Saturday afternoon. On Sunday, my 5 year old daughter video-conferenced her Grandparents who are in the next province. By herself.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:05 PM on August 22, 2011 [21 favorites]
I completely disagree.
We picked up an iPad 2 on Saturday afternoon. On Sunday, my 5 year old daughter video-conferenced her Grandparents who are in the next province. By herself.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:05 PM on August 22, 2011 [21 favorites]
"'If Microsoft is right in believing that people don't actually want limitations"
I can't decide if this is a strawman, ad homenim, or a false dichotomy.
posted by blue_beetle at 1:06 PM on August 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
I can't decide if this is a strawman, ad homenim, or a false dichotomy.
posted by blue_beetle at 1:06 PM on August 22, 2011 [6 favorites]
WinnipegDragon, that's only remarkable if they're in Saskatchewan.
posted by blue_beetle at 1:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 1:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
iPad's success is mostly about ease of use, which includes aesthetics. The cultural cachet doesn't hurt, but aesthetics and cultural cachet, on their own, don't create consumer electronics markets out of thin air.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
iPad's success is mostly about ease of use, which includes aesthetics. The cultural cachet doesn't hurt, but aesthetics and cultural cachet, on their own, don't create consumer electronics markets out of thin air.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
So when Windows 8 is eventually released, the value proposition could: you can get an iPad, which is great for Web browsing, light e-mail, watching movies, and playing Angry Birds. Or you can get a Windows 8 tablet which can do all that, but which you can also use to write your resumé, or crunch those numbers ...
Except that by the time a Windows 8 tablet/PC is released, you can get that and an iPad 3 or maybe even an iPad 4. They are basically comparing a mythical device running an unreleased operating system with no set release date to an iPad (2) you can buy today. Who the hell knows what an iPad will be able to do when a Windows 8 tablet/PC is released?
Wikipedia: At the Microsoft Developer Forum in Tokyo on May 23, 2011, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer announced that the next version of Windows will be released the following year (in 2012).
"And yet, as we look forward to the next generation of Windows systems, which will come out next year, there's a whole lot more coming. As we progress through the year, you ought to expect to hear a lot about Windows 8. Windows 8 slates, tablets, PCs, a variety of different form factors."[23]
However, the company quickly corrected Ballmer's words in a company statement issued that afternoon.
"It appears there was a misstatement. We are eagerly awaiting the next generation of Windows 7 hardware that will be available in the coming fiscal year. To date, we have yet to formally announce any timing or naming for the next version of Windows."
posted by mikepop at 1:08 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Except that by the time a Windows 8 tablet/PC is released, you can get that and an iPad 3 or maybe even an iPad 4. They are basically comparing a mythical device running an unreleased operating system with no set release date to an iPad (2) you can buy today. Who the hell knows what an iPad will be able to do when a Windows 8 tablet/PC is released?
Wikipedia: At the Microsoft Developer Forum in Tokyo on May 23, 2011, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer announced that the next version of Windows will be released the following year (in 2012).
"And yet, as we look forward to the next generation of Windows systems, which will come out next year, there's a whole lot more coming. As we progress through the year, you ought to expect to hear a lot about Windows 8. Windows 8 slates, tablets, PCs, a variety of different form factors."[23]
However, the company quickly corrected Ballmer's words in a company statement issued that afternoon.
"It appears there was a misstatement. We are eagerly awaiting the next generation of Windows 7 hardware that will be available in the coming fiscal year. To date, we have yet to formally announce any timing or naming for the next version of Windows."
posted by mikepop at 1:08 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
that's only remarkable if they're in Saskatchewan
Saskatchewan doesn't exist. It's a fairy tale invented to scare kids, like the Boogeyman or Justin Beiber.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:08 PM on August 22, 2011 [10 favorites]
Saskatchewan doesn't exist. It's a fairy tale invented to scare kids, like the Boogeyman or Justin Beiber.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:08 PM on August 22, 2011 [10 favorites]
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
I don't know about that. The ease of use is part of the aesthetic, isn't it? I don't use Apple products because I disagree with the whole closed garden philosophy, but people don't use them just cuz they're pretty. And I would argue that ease of use extends to Android too. It's not like it's harder to watch Netflix or Skype your family on an Android based tablet than on an IPad.
posted by dave78981 at 1:09 PM on August 22, 2011
I don't know about that. The ease of use is part of the aesthetic, isn't it? I don't use Apple products because I disagree with the whole closed garden philosophy, but people don't use them just cuz they're pretty. And I would argue that ease of use extends to Android too. It's not like it's harder to watch Netflix or Skype your family on an Android based tablet than on an IPad.
posted by dave78981 at 1:09 PM on August 22, 2011
I have fond memories of 2006, when some salesperson managed to convince the UIUC econ department that all the professors needed Windows tablets to teach. Unfortunately they sucked. The professor would be in the middle of drawing some curves on a chart during a presentation and they'd crash. Hilarious. The next 10 minutes would be spent restarting the damn thing. Next year none of the econ professors had them.
posted by melissam at 1:10 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by melissam at 1:10 PM on August 22, 2011
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
Kinda like every other product on earth?
posted by dripdripdrop at 1:12 PM on August 22, 2011
Kinda like every other product on earth?
posted by dripdripdrop at 1:12 PM on August 22, 2011
I say, doesn't Android have all these features already?
posted by LogicalDash at 1:13 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by LogicalDash at 1:13 PM on August 22, 2011
There are some things about the iPad that annoy me to no end. No Flash, YouTube seems crazy slow, constant reloads on switching between browser screens. I spend more time on my iPad than on my PC, but it really is a "broken glass" experience. The form factor is so convenient that I will walk over broken glass to use it.
I'm sure there is a way to make something easy to use without crippling it. I'm not sure Microsoft will be the ones to do it though.
This really is a rehash ofthe same conversation I have every day at work. "Why do you have an iPhone, you should use android, you can install whatever you want on it" .." Ehhhh I just want to make calls and play angry birds" .. "yeah but look at this, I can script it so it makes me coffee whenever I get a text" ... " No really, I just want to make calls and play angry birds."
posted by Ad hominem at 1:13 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I'm sure there is a way to make something easy to use without crippling it. I'm not sure Microsoft will be the ones to do it though.
This really is a rehash ofthe same conversation I have every day at work. "Why do you have an iPhone, you should use android, you can install whatever you want on it" .." Ehhhh I just want to make calls and play angry birds" .. "yeah but look at this, I can script it so it makes me coffee whenever I get a text" ... " No really, I just want to make calls and play angry birds."
posted by Ad hominem at 1:13 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I say, doesn't Android have all these features already?
It does, and boy are those Android tablets flying off of the shelves.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:14 PM on August 22, 2011 [9 favorites]
It does, and boy are those Android tablets flying off of the shelves.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:14 PM on August 22, 2011 [9 favorites]
Saskatchewan doesn't exist.
Sure it does; that's where the mythical Saskatchewatch, aka Bigfoot, comes from.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 1:14 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sure it does; that's where the mythical Saskatchewatch, aka Bigfoot, comes from.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 1:14 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Back when cell phones first came out, I was kicking around getting a PDA. I didn't want to be carrying two gadgets around in my pocket and declared, "I'll get a cell phone once it can also act as a PDA." Now they do and a whole lot more.
I have a laptop. It is portable, but I can't easily carry it around everywhere. I mostly use it for dicking around like I could on an iPad, but often I need it for actual computer work (GIMPing, full out word processing, coding). If I could only have something light and fun like an iPad that could get docked into a keyboard for when it is time for serious business...
When I saw the initial ideas going into Windows 8 I was horrified. Then as I thought about it I realized that I was their target audience and became more horrified.
posted by charred husk at 1:17 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have a laptop. It is portable, but I can't easily carry it around everywhere. I mostly use it for dicking around like I could on an iPad, but often I need it for actual computer work (GIMPing, full out word processing, coding). If I could only have something light and fun like an iPad that could get docked into a keyboard for when it is time for serious business...
When I saw the initial ideas going into Windows 8 I was horrified. Then as I thought about it I realized that I was their target audience and became more horrified.
posted by charred husk at 1:17 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Saskatchewan: The world's biggest slightly-trapezoidal rectangle.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:18 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:18 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sorry for the derail
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by WinnipegDragon at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2011
I say, doesn't Android have all these features already?
It does, and boy are those Android tablets flying off of the shelves.
Most of the Android tablets are prohibitively expensive. I mean, $699 for the Galaxy Tab when it came out? Who's gonna buy one of those when they can get an IPad for 399?
But those HP TouchPads did fly off the shelves when they dropped the price to $99/149.
posted by dave78981 at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
It does, and boy are those Android tablets flying off of the shelves.
Most of the Android tablets are prohibitively expensive. I mean, $699 for the Galaxy Tab when it came out? Who's gonna buy one of those when they can get an IPad for 399?
But those HP TouchPads did fly off the shelves when they dropped the price to $99/149.
posted by dave78981 at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
I say, doesn't Android have all these features already?
Android hardware is kind of hit-and-miss, and the ability for makers to provide their own versions of Android (e.g., HTC's Sense UI) makes it confusing for consumers. The Android app market also suffers because there is almost no limit to what can be uploaded, and a lot of the apps that are uploaded are from Korea and China. From a North American perspective, the apps look and act weird.
The iPad, on the other hand, looks and feels like a shiny toy. It has consistent quality, and generally speaking the people who are buying them probably don't understand that YouTube doesn't play as well; ignorance is bliss.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Android hardware is kind of hit-and-miss, and the ability for makers to provide their own versions of Android (e.g., HTC's Sense UI) makes it confusing for consumers. The Android app market also suffers because there is almost no limit to what can be uploaded, and a lot of the apps that are uploaded are from Korea and China. From a North American perspective, the apps look and act weird.
The iPad, on the other hand, looks and feels like a shiny toy. It has consistent quality, and generally speaking the people who are buying them probably don't understand that YouTube doesn't play as well; ignorance is bliss.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:19 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Oddly, the iPad is in some ways more like the original PC than today's PC is, in that it is designed with limitations in mind to make it appealing and cost-effective for the home market. The PC was going to smash so-called time-sharing computers, kill UNIX, and democratize technology. It didn't quite turn out that way, of course.
posted by swift at 1:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by swift at 1:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
But those HP TouchPads did fly off the shelves when they dropped the price to $99/149.
What the huge sales of the $99 TouchPad tells us about iPad and the future of tablets
posted by PenDevil at 1:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
What the huge sales of the $99 TouchPad tells us about iPad and the future of tablets
posted by PenDevil at 1:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
But those HP TouchPads did fly off the shelves when they dropped the price to $99/149.
That's what happens in a fire sale. The Touchpads sold so poorly against the iPad even when they were less expensive than the iPad that HP stopped selling them.
Also, can somebody tell them they can use all their commercial time on something else? I'm getting tired of those Russel Brand spots running every break.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:24 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
That's what happens in a fire sale. The Touchpads sold so poorly against the iPad even when they were less expensive than the iPad that HP stopped selling them.
Also, can somebody tell them they can use all their commercial time on something else? I'm getting tired of those Russel Brand spots running every break.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:24 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
I (a 20+ year Mac user) recently bought an Asus EP121 as opposed to an iPad for basically the reasons they're citing. I wanted something I can run Photoshop on and the Asus is both touch and pen enabled, so I can use it as a sketch pad. It cost about $300 more than an iPad but it's much more versatile and it doubles as a Wacom tablet. It also has the added benefit of not having to use iTunes for getting stuff on and off, it has 2 usb ports and a card reader, which you'll never see on an iPad.
posted by doctor_negative at 1:25 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by doctor_negative at 1:25 PM on August 22, 2011
People don't want "tablets". They want iPads.
Whether you think that's because it's a terrific device or because people are stupid, the fact remains: People want iPads. And Microsoft is no more able to give them an iPad experience - with all that entails - than any other non-Apple company.
So they might as well try selling their tablet as Something Else. But as noted, tablets-as-PCs have a lengthy history of failure.
posted by Trurl at 1:26 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Whether you think that's because it's a terrific device or because people are stupid, the fact remains: People want iPads. And Microsoft is no more able to give them an iPad experience - with all that entails - than any other non-Apple company.
So they might as well try selling their tablet as Something Else. But as noted, tablets-as-PCs have a lengthy history of failure.
posted by Trurl at 1:26 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I (a 20+ year Mac user) recently bought an Asus EP121 as opposed to an iPad for basically the reasons they're citing.
I also bought for the reasons they cited. I bought a Macbook Air.
posted by VikingSword at 1:29 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
I also bought for the reasons they cited. I bought a Macbook Air.
posted by VikingSword at 1:29 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
People don't want "tablets". They want iPads.
unless something else is significantly cheaper. Amazon's Android tablet will be the one to watch. Someone will crack this market, it's just a matter of time.
Are you talking about the old 7" model?
Sorry, the Blackberry Playbook is 699, which is even more ludicrous.
posted by dave78981 at 1:29 PM on August 22, 2011
unless something else is significantly cheaper. Amazon's Android tablet will be the one to watch. Someone will crack this market, it's just a matter of time.
Are you talking about the old 7" model?
Sorry, the Blackberry Playbook is 699, which is even more ludicrous.
posted by dave78981 at 1:29 PM on August 22, 2011
Sorry, the Blackberry Playbook is 699, which is even more ludicrous.
A garden that doesn't even need a wall to keep people out.
posted by Babblesort at 1:32 PM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
A garden that doesn't even need a wall to keep people out.
posted by Babblesort at 1:32 PM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
The Touchpads sold so poorly against the iPad even when they were less expensive than the iPad that HP stopped selling them.
Well, that's part of the reason. It didn't help that WebOS had negligible market share and there was almost no conceivable way to catch up.
posted by dave78981 at 1:32 PM on August 22, 2011
Well, that's part of the reason. It didn't help that WebOS had negligible market share and there was almost no conceivable way to catch up.
posted by dave78981 at 1:32 PM on August 22, 2011
Would it be fair to assume the operating system will be something like Windows 7 Starter Edition, but with even more features arbitrarily disabled?
People don't want "tablets". They want iPads.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that Kool-Aid y'all are drinking is really Flavor Aid.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:34 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
People don't want "tablets". They want iPads.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that Kool-Aid y'all are drinking is really Flavor Aid.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:34 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but that Kool-Aid y'all are drinking is really Flavor Aid.
No, it's .......... people!
posted by swift at 1:43 PM on August 22, 2011
No, it's .......... people!
posted by swift at 1:43 PM on August 22, 2011
It is a funny thing. People that have such strong beliefs about "open" and "free" and all of that Cory Doctrow shit, telling other people that they've drank KoolAid.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:44 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:44 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sorry, the Blackberry Playbook is 699, which is even more ludicrous.
For the 64GB model, which is the same price as the 64GB iPad. And I'm not seeing a $399 iPad on the Apple Store page. For the same storage size, the Playbook and iPad seem to have the same cost.
Now, the Playbook is 7" as opposed to 10", which is definitely significant. But I have no desire to own either, so it's all moot for me anyway.
But still, it's not really fair to compare a 64GB model to a 16GB refurb. (That's where I'm assuming the $399 comes from.)
posted by kmz at 1:44 PM on August 22, 2011
For the 64GB model, which is the same price as the 64GB iPad. And I'm not seeing a $399 iPad on the Apple Store page. For the same storage size, the Playbook and iPad seem to have the same cost.
Now, the Playbook is 7" as opposed to 10", which is definitely significant. But I have no desire to own either, so it's all moot for me anyway.
But still, it's not really fair to compare a 64GB model to a 16GB refurb. (That's where I'm assuming the $399 comes from.)
posted by kmz at 1:44 PM on August 22, 2011
I bet Balmer would love a tall, refreshing glass of Flavor-AidM right now.
posted by device55 at 1:47 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by device55 at 1:47 PM on August 22, 2011
For the same storage size, the Playbook and iPad seem to have the same cost.
That's my point, that for the same price or a little less, people will choose the one with the name they recognize. It would take significant price differences to make people who would otherwise choose an IPad simply because the name is familiar, to choose an Android or Windows 8 tablet.
posted by dave78981 at 1:49 PM on August 22, 2011
That's my point, that for the same price or a little less, people will choose the one with the name they recognize. It would take significant price differences to make people who would otherwise choose an IPad simply because the name is familiar, to choose an Android or Windows 8 tablet.
posted by dave78981 at 1:49 PM on August 22, 2011
I got an iPad2 recently.
I liked it well enough for the first couple weeks I had it. Replaced the Nokia N800 "Web Tablet" and my Android smart phone for around the house web browsing and managing the squeeze server.
But then somebody on AskMe mentioned Splashtop -- a simple remote desktop app that lets me run my PC laptop from my iPad (over WiFi in the network, over the Internet from without) -- and I like it a whole lot more. To the iPad's convenience and ease of use, splashtop adds all the power and this-is-how-I-work familiarity of my PC.
MS may be on to something.
posted by notyou at 1:50 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I liked it well enough for the first couple weeks I had it. Replaced the Nokia N800 "Web Tablet" and my Android smart phone for around the house web browsing and managing the squeeze server.
But then somebody on AskMe mentioned Splashtop -- a simple remote desktop app that lets me run my PC laptop from my iPad (over WiFi in the network, over the Internet from without) -- and I like it a whole lot more. To the iPad's convenience and ease of use, splashtop adds all the power and this-is-how-I-work familiarity of my PC.
MS may be on to something.
posted by notyou at 1:50 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
Still, this tablet-as-a-PC model hasn't worked well despite 20 years of trying. Microsoft's decision to stick with it might look like a mistake—why would this approach start working now when it hasn't before?
This.
mikepop: They are basically comparing a mythical device running an unreleased operating system with no set release date to an iPad (2) you can buy today. Who the hell knows what an iPad will be able to do when a Windows 8 tablet/PC is released?
This.
Thirdly, how does someone look at this interface and think a Windows 8 tablet (as presented) is a good idea? Touch requires entirely different targets than click, and ignoring that seems...disastrous. Seriously, who wants to navigate Excel 2011 with their fingers?
On preview: notyou, what do you use Splashtop to do? Any success/horror stories?
posted by isnotchicago at 1:53 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
This.
mikepop: They are basically comparing a mythical device running an unreleased operating system with no set release date to an iPad (2) you can buy today. Who the hell knows what an iPad will be able to do when a Windows 8 tablet/PC is released?
This.
Thirdly, how does someone look at this interface and think a Windows 8 tablet (as presented) is a good idea? Touch requires entirely different targets than click, and ignoring that seems...disastrous. Seriously, who wants to navigate Excel 2011 with their fingers?
On preview: notyou, what do you use Splashtop to do? Any success/horror stories?
posted by isnotchicago at 1:53 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
The problem is, right now, you can't use a tablet as a general computer replacement. You can't give a tablet, an iPad or a Galaxy Tab to a kid going off to university and expect it to be all that they need. As currently conceived they're second-class devices. You can't print (easily), do homework (easily), store a couple hundred gig of music/videos/photos (at all), hook up a random device like a camera, extra hard drive (on a lot of systems). As long as they're an extra third thing (after phone and computer), tablets are always going to be marginal.
I don't think either Apple or Google have it entirely right yet. I also don't think the hardware form factor is really right yet. These are great reading and watching devices (and I use mine all the time for that), when I need to do real work, I go back to my workstation.
posted by bonehead at 1:57 PM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
I don't think either Apple or Google have it entirely right yet. I also don't think the hardware form factor is really right yet. These are great reading and watching devices (and I use mine all the time for that), when I need to do real work, I go back to my workstation.
posted by bonehead at 1:57 PM on August 22, 2011 [11 favorites]
Microsoft's blindness comes, I believe, from their institutional bias to view everything from a developer's viewpoint. Devs are geeks. Gearheads. If they don't have 30 different apps running concurrently, doing umpteen things at once, it's an off-day. Of course Windows should be everywhere! Of course they want a PC crammed into every device. That's their world.
But, it's not the world for the other 90-95% of people out there. That's what Microsoft doesn't get. They can't grasp that there is a ginormous number of people out there who don't want to be geeks. Tablets aren't PCs. And, for most of what people actually do with computers, they don't need to be.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:02 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
But, it's not the world for the other 90-95% of people out there. That's what Microsoft doesn't get. They can't grasp that there is a ginormous number of people out there who don't want to be geeks. Tablets aren't PCs. And, for most of what people actually do with computers, they don't need to be.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:02 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
We got an iPad (1) for *free* last year, and it sits on the dresser most of the time unused. I brought it to a conference a year ago, thinking it would be nicer than hauling around a laptop. The first thing I tried to do with it was edit a word document I had emailed myself. No go. Then I tried to find a way to move said file to the local storage so I could view it when out of wi-fi range. No go. Then I put it away for the rest of the week.
There is definitely a market for a cheap tablet that allows more general purpose computing (Hell, just a means to share files between programs). Apple doesn't want it, so why couldn't Microsoft take it?
posted by Popular Ethics at 2:05 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
There is definitely a market for a cheap tablet that allows more general purpose computing (Hell, just a means to share files between programs). Apple doesn't want it, so why couldn't Microsoft take it?
posted by Popular Ethics at 2:05 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
Thirdly, how does someone look at this interface and think a Windows 8 tablet (as presented) is a good idea?
But that's not the Windows 8 interface.
(Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft, but nearly everything I know about Win8 comes from public sources.)
posted by Slothrup at 2:06 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
But that's not the Windows 8 interface.
(Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft, but nearly everything I know about Win8 comes from public sources.)
posted by Slothrup at 2:06 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
MS may be on to something.
I think some form of convergence is eminent. Features in Mac OS X Lion are very convergence-y and Windows 8 is Windows Phone 7 but big and with extra Windows™
Flash memory is just going to get cheaper - in a few years I can imagine that very few desktop or portable computers will have a traditional spinning hard drives. I'm sure we'll still have big honking workstations or portable hard drives with big multi terabyte drives for archiving and storage. But your typical machine probably won't need that - especially if you have cloud apps or a home server or something.
If you can imagine an iPad or an Android tablet with twice the screen area - like 17" monitor size - you can imagine all that extra room being devoted to battery and flash storage - and you can imagine a keyboard dock or easel for "working" and taking it off to a meeting for presenting or reading or whatever.
posted by device55 at 2:07 PM on August 22, 2011
I think some form of convergence is eminent. Features in Mac OS X Lion are very convergence-y and Windows 8 is Windows Phone 7 but big and with extra Windows™
Flash memory is just going to get cheaper - in a few years I can imagine that very few desktop or portable computers will have a traditional spinning hard drives. I'm sure we'll still have big honking workstations or portable hard drives with big multi terabyte drives for archiving and storage. But your typical machine probably won't need that - especially if you have cloud apps or a home server or something.
If you can imagine an iPad or an Android tablet with twice the screen area - like 17" monitor size - you can imagine all that extra room being devoted to battery and flash storage - and you can imagine a keyboard dock or easel for "working" and taking it off to a meeting for presenting or reading or whatever.
posted by device55 at 2:07 PM on August 22, 2011
Take a product idea, let's say a four-wheeled motorized vehicle that gets you from point A to point B quickly and safely and keeps the rain off.
Microsoft has, since the beginning of Microsoft, been building vehicles that do exactly that. And a whole lot more. Except when you can't figure out where the windshield wiper button is. Or it inexplicably stops in the middle of the road. But they got a lot of features! Imagine a Unimog with an AirStream bolted on the back, with a satellite dish and full woodshop that expands out of a workbox. Get anything done you want. And a power-take-off so you can bolt whatever you on at the back. But don't let your grandma drive it.
Apple has, since the beginning of iOS, been building vehicles that do exactly that. And not too much more. Because instead of adding a whole lot of extra features, they make the features that are there better, simple, easier to use. More effective, or more efficient. So imagine maybe a Prius. Simple to operate, nice to look at, efficient, quiet, you're not going to tow anything with it, don't open the hood it's full of elder gods, and you're certainly not going to be real comfortable sleeping over in it. But boy, it sure is nice to use it to drive from point A to point B.
Most people, most of the time, just want to get from Point A to Point B quickly and safely whilst remaining dry. And because that's all they want to do, it's really nice to have a vehicle available that does it simply and elegantly as opposed to just adequately along with a whole lot of other things that they really don't care about but might fall off or need maintenance anyway.
Yeah, many people will want to use a bigger vehicle for some other tasks. But then many people often have two vehicles, one of which sits in the driveway most of the time -- or just rent a specialized one when they need it.
They're not Gee Whiz Commander Science Magic Screens Of Amazement And Wonder any longer. They're just tools now, like the telephone. It's time for them to be as easy to use as the telephone. Apple seems to be the only company that gets this.
And that's why Apple owns the market, because grandma wants to use a tool to watch YouTube, surf the web, send emails to the newspaper editor, videoconference with little Suzy and play Angry Birds, and Apple sells a device that lets her do just that simply and elegantly.
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
Microsoft has, since the beginning of Microsoft, been building vehicles that do exactly that. And a whole lot more. Except when you can't figure out where the windshield wiper button is. Or it inexplicably stops in the middle of the road. But they got a lot of features! Imagine a Unimog with an AirStream bolted on the back, with a satellite dish and full woodshop that expands out of a workbox. Get anything done you want. And a power-take-off so you can bolt whatever you on at the back. But don't let your grandma drive it.
Apple has, since the beginning of iOS, been building vehicles that do exactly that. And not too much more. Because instead of adding a whole lot of extra features, they make the features that are there better, simple, easier to use. More effective, or more efficient. So imagine maybe a Prius. Simple to operate, nice to look at, efficient, quiet, you're not going to tow anything with it, don't open the hood it's full of elder gods, and you're certainly not going to be real comfortable sleeping over in it. But boy, it sure is nice to use it to drive from point A to point B.
Most people, most of the time, just want to get from Point A to Point B quickly and safely whilst remaining dry. And because that's all they want to do, it's really nice to have a vehicle available that does it simply and elegantly as opposed to just adequately along with a whole lot of other things that they really don't care about but might fall off or need maintenance anyway.
Yeah, many people will want to use a bigger vehicle for some other tasks. But then many people often have two vehicles, one of which sits in the driveway most of the time -- or just rent a specialized one when they need it.
They're not Gee Whiz Commander Science Magic Screens Of Amazement And Wonder any longer. They're just tools now, like the telephone. It's time for them to be as easy to use as the telephone. Apple seems to be the only company that gets this.
And that's why Apple owns the market, because grandma wants to use a tool to watch YouTube, surf the web, send emails to the newspaper editor, videoconference with little Suzy and play Angry Birds, and Apple sells a device that lets her do just that simply and elegantly.
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
But that's not the Windows 8 interface.
But that is the Windows 8 interface as Microsoft has presented it.
posted by isnotchicago at 2:09 PM on August 22, 2011
But that is the Windows 8 interface as Microsoft has presented it.
posted by isnotchicago at 2:09 PM on August 22, 2011
I agree, bonehead. We're between devices right now, and one of the unknowns is future needs.
I've brought my iPad for work meetings in well connected spaces, and that has been amazing. All the pdf and word documents accessible in a small and light searchable device (using google works for the word doc). Easy to use, easy for small changes to share within the meeting and with colleagues at home.
And I like using it for reading stuff, both private and work-related.
On the other hand, my computer broke now while everyone was on holidays, so I had to use the iPad for all my work and play. Not good at all. But in two or three years, my work communication may have changed completely, just as it has changed several times since I bought my first computer decades ago.
posted by mumimor at 2:10 PM on August 22, 2011
I've brought my iPad for work meetings in well connected spaces, and that has been amazing. All the pdf and word documents accessible in a small and light searchable device (using google works for the word doc). Easy to use, easy for small changes to share within the meeting and with colleagues at home.
And I like using it for reading stuff, both private and work-related.
On the other hand, my computer broke now while everyone was on holidays, so I had to use the iPad for all my work and play. Not good at all. But in two or three years, my work communication may have changed completely, just as it has changed several times since I bought my first computer decades ago.
posted by mumimor at 2:10 PM on August 22, 2011
If you can imagine an iPad or an Android tablet with twice the screen area - like 17" monitor size
My wrists ache at the thought. Even the 600-800g of the 10" tablets is too much after only a short while. These are much heavier than a book.
posted by bonehead at 2:11 PM on August 22, 2011
My wrists ache at the thought. Even the 600-800g of the 10" tablets is too much after only a short while. These are much heavier than a book.
posted by bonehead at 2:11 PM on August 22, 2011
My wrists ache at the thought. Even the 600-800g of the 10" tablets is too much after only a short while. These are much heavier than a book.
Well yeah, you wouldn't want to hold it up like a newspaper. At least not for long.
But lay it on the desk between you and some coworkers and you have a portable MS Surface table.
posted by device55 at 2:14 PM on August 22, 2011
Well yeah, you wouldn't want to hold it up like a newspaper. At least not for long.
But lay it on the desk between you and some coworkers and you have a portable MS Surface table.
posted by device55 at 2:14 PM on August 22, 2011
Thorzdad: "Tablets aren't PCs. And, for most of what people actually do with computers, they don't need to be."
This is exactly me. I'm not particularly fond of Apple as a company, and I can take or leave their aesthetic. I have a reasonably beefy Windows desktop PC which is full of games and stuff and has a giant IPS screen and expensive peripherals and that's where I intersect with the Microsoft mentality, but that's not what I want from a handheld or tabletop device. For web, books, music, and watching TV shows, scaling up my simple, slick, fast iPod Touch to iPad size is a far more attractive thought for me than scaling down my complicated, powerful PC.
Comparing our netbook side-by-side with my imaginary iPad or Android tablet, I know exactly which one I want to browse the web on, and which one I want to hang a mouse and a Wacom off.
However, what I also want from a handheld device is games, and Apple and Google have failed there. It's going to be interesting to see where the PSVita slots into all this.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:18 PM on August 22, 2011
This is exactly me. I'm not particularly fond of Apple as a company, and I can take or leave their aesthetic. I have a reasonably beefy Windows desktop PC which is full of games and stuff and has a giant IPS screen and expensive peripherals and that's where I intersect with the Microsoft mentality, but that's not what I want from a handheld or tabletop device. For web, books, music, and watching TV shows, scaling up my simple, slick, fast iPod Touch to iPad size is a far more attractive thought for me than scaling down my complicated, powerful PC.
Comparing our netbook side-by-side with my imaginary iPad or Android tablet, I know exactly which one I want to browse the web on, and which one I want to hang a mouse and a Wacom off.
However, what I also want from a handheld device is games, and Apple and Google have failed there. It's going to be interesting to see where the PSVita slots into all this.
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:18 PM on August 22, 2011
If you can imagine an iPad or an Android tablet with twice the screen area - like 17" monitor size
Ugh. Now, you have a work screen with a thick, perpetual smear of fingerprints, as if a billion-billion sales people had descended upon your workstation and pointed at every single thing they wanted changed in every document you ever created.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:19 PM on August 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
Ugh. Now, you have a work screen with a thick, perpetual smear of fingerprints, as if a billion-billion sales people had descended upon your workstation and pointed at every single thing they wanted changed in every document you ever created.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:19 PM on August 22, 2011 [7 favorites]
What Steve jobs gets, and MS fanboys here are missing, is that IT'S NOT A COMPUTER.
I have a computer, if I want to do computer things, I use the computer. If I want to screw around, I use my Ipad.
It feels like arguing that no one should buy TV's. My computer does everything my TV does and so much more, TV's therefore are stupid and only for people who like seem "cool".
The Ipad is a gadget, and computers are almost like appliances now. Do you check specs on toasters or do you buy the one the toasts and looks nice.
On preview: seanmpuckett +1
posted by dripdripdrop at 2:20 PM on August 22, 2011
I have a computer, if I want to do computer things, I use the computer. If I want to screw around, I use my Ipad.
It feels like arguing that no one should buy TV's. My computer does everything my TV does and so much more, TV's therefore are stupid and only for people who like seem "cool".
The Ipad is a gadget, and computers are almost like appliances now. Do you check specs on toasters or do you buy the one the toasts and looks nice.
On preview: seanmpuckett +1
posted by dripdripdrop at 2:20 PM on August 22, 2011
Ad hominem: "constant reloads on switching between browser screens."
For this reason alone, I prefer my Windows Phone 7 device to Mrs. Spatula's iThings.
posted by Rat Spatula at 2:22 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
For this reason alone, I prefer my Windows Phone 7 device to Mrs. Spatula's iThings.
posted by Rat Spatula at 2:22 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Those who dis the iPad based on aesthetics are missing something. Usability is a key part of the aesthetic. Two data points: a friend of mine has tried for years to get his grandfather to use a computer. He was never successful until he handed him his iPhone and he immediately not only "got it" but wanted one with a bigger screen (i.e., iPad).
Another person I know develops for Android and is a huge booster. He has failed completely to get his five year old to use the Motorola Xoom. Every time he convinces her to try it, she'll use it for a short time and gets frustrated...and returns to her iPad.
We are a generation who has gotten used to the computer as a computer. The next generation wants a tool that "just works" not something they need a six-week course to master.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Another person I know develops for Android and is a huge booster. He has failed completely to get his five year old to use the Motorola Xoom. Every time he convinces her to try it, she'll use it for a short time and gets frustrated...and returns to her iPad.
We are a generation who has gotten used to the computer as a computer. The next generation wants a tool that "just works" not something they need a six-week course to master.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
device55, there are a bunch of all-in-one PCs that are pretty close to that now. These Lenovo things for example. The big iMacs are also in the same ballpark. I don't see a huge advantage over a regular desktop system for either. In fact, I rather have a thinkpad or powerbook.
posted by bonehead at 2:23 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by bonehead at 2:23 PM on August 22, 2011
The great thing about a Windows PC is that you can basically do anything with them. The problem with Apple products is that Apple is deciding what can be done and what can't be done.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:25 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 2:25 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
I disagree with *both*. It's not just ease of use. It's that the iOS is built for limited input devices, and does not try to be everything to everyone. Most importantly, it is not a PC and flat out refuses to even try to be a PC. An iPad being used as a PC is about as bad as a 5'0" person trying to play shooting forward in the NBA. Even if he plays incredibly well, the best he'll be is barely adequate. There was only one Muggsy Bouges (and he was a 5'9" point guard.)
Remember when everyone said the iPhone would fail because it had neither 3G nor copy-paste? It didn't have the first* because at the time of the original iPhone launch, the 3G chipsets available were power hungry and unreliable. Copy and paste didn't make it because Apple hadn't figured out a good way to implement them. Arguably, they still don't.
In other words, the reason the iPhone/iPad are such stellar, amazing, incredible successes isn't what they do. It's what they don't do, and if there isn't a great way to do it, rather than having a crappy way to do it, they simply don't do it, because it's not a PC. The reason that PCs are such stellar successes, arguably, is because they're not mainframes and they're not iPads. :-)
iOS works because of what it isn't. It could easily be made to do a bunch of PC like things -- badly. Apple refuses to build a bad $600 PC. They choose to build a brilliantly effective $600 device that is not a PC.
That's the difference. And that's why I think putting the word "Windows" into a tablet OS is bad. Windows means windows. It means PC. So, unless it acts like a PC and works like a PC, it won't make PC users happy, and if it tries to act like a PC, it won't make tablet users happy. Even if MS gets it right -- uses the elements of Windows that do work, and dump the rest for elements that will work (which is, after all, what Apple did with MacOS->iOS) then they can probably make a very effective tablet.
But if they call it Windows, they're saying it's going to be a PC, and they've failed at tablet PCs multiple times, and I see no reason for anything to change. The problem is that the tablet form factor is a lousy PC form factor. So, your choice is simple. Make a lousy PC on that form factor, or make something else brilliant on that form factor.
It is why people *line up* -- and keep lining up for weeks -- to buy iPads. And it's why devices that went from being effective limited-purpose devices failed badly when they tried to go general. The Blackberry is a brilliant email terminal, and a lousy smartphone. The Palm was an amazingly useful data collection and display device, and collapsed when you tried to turn it into a general purpose computing device.
Really, the only ones out there who sort-of-got-it was, of all things, HP. Alas, we'll never really see what that device could become. But it was clear that they got it -- they were not going to make a tablet PC. They were going to enter the iPad market by making a tablet OS, not a PC on a crippled form factor.
That's the difference.
* And the iPhone 5 will not have LTE for the exact same reason.
** Have you ever looked at the original PalmOS memory management scheme?
posted by eriko at 2:27 PM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
I disagree with *both*. It's not just ease of use. It's that the iOS is built for limited input devices, and does not try to be everything to everyone. Most importantly, it is not a PC and flat out refuses to even try to be a PC. An iPad being used as a PC is about as bad as a 5'0" person trying to play shooting forward in the NBA. Even if he plays incredibly well, the best he'll be is barely adequate. There was only one Muggsy Bouges (and he was a 5'9" point guard.)
Remember when everyone said the iPhone would fail because it had neither 3G nor copy-paste? It didn't have the first* because at the time of the original iPhone launch, the 3G chipsets available were power hungry and unreliable. Copy and paste didn't make it because Apple hadn't figured out a good way to implement them. Arguably, they still don't.
In other words, the reason the iPhone/iPad are such stellar, amazing, incredible successes isn't what they do. It's what they don't do, and if there isn't a great way to do it, rather than having a crappy way to do it, they simply don't do it, because it's not a PC. The reason that PCs are such stellar successes, arguably, is because they're not mainframes and they're not iPads. :-)
iOS works because of what it isn't. It could easily be made to do a bunch of PC like things -- badly. Apple refuses to build a bad $600 PC. They choose to build a brilliantly effective $600 device that is not a PC.
That's the difference. And that's why I think putting the word "Windows" into a tablet OS is bad. Windows means windows. It means PC. So, unless it acts like a PC and works like a PC, it won't make PC users happy, and if it tries to act like a PC, it won't make tablet users happy. Even if MS gets it right -- uses the elements of Windows that do work, and dump the rest for elements that will work (which is, after all, what Apple did with MacOS->iOS) then they can probably make a very effective tablet.
But if they call it Windows, they're saying it's going to be a PC, and they've failed at tablet PCs multiple times, and I see no reason for anything to change. The problem is that the tablet form factor is a lousy PC form factor. So, your choice is simple. Make a lousy PC on that form factor, or make something else brilliant on that form factor.
It is why people *line up* -- and keep lining up for weeks -- to buy iPads. And it's why devices that went from being effective limited-purpose devices failed badly when they tried to go general. The Blackberry is a brilliant email terminal, and a lousy smartphone. The Palm was an amazingly useful data collection and display device, and collapsed when you tried to turn it into a general purpose computing device.
Really, the only ones out there who sort-of-got-it was, of all things, HP. Alas, we'll never really see what that device could become. But it was clear that they got it -- they were not going to make a tablet PC. They were going to enter the iPad market by making a tablet OS, not a PC on a crippled form factor.
That's the difference.
* And the iPhone 5 will not have LTE for the exact same reason.
** Have you ever looked at the original PalmOS memory management scheme?
posted by eriko at 2:27 PM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
The problem with Apple products is that Apple is deciding what can be done and what can't be done.
For example, MACs can't play games and only have a one button mouse.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:29 PM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
For example, MACs can't play games and only have a one button mouse.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:29 PM on August 22, 2011 [8 favorites]
If and when somebody creates a tablet that rejects the walled-garden paradigm, they'll certainly get my money. The problem is that the way the market is going I kind of doubt they'll get anybody else's.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:30 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:30 PM on August 22, 2011
If and when somebody creates a tablet that rejects the walled-garden paradigm, they'll certainly get my money.
The Android line is that way; have fun. Oh wait, there's no line. Anyway, Android is over there.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
The Android line is that way; have fun. Oh wait, there's no line. Anyway, Android is over there.
posted by entropicamericana at 2:31 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I have a computer, if I want to do computer things, I use the computer. If I want to screw around, I use my Ipad. It feels like arguing that no one should buy TV's.
They're all screens that do computery things, even tvs these days. I know quite a number of people that "get by" with a laptop as their only device simply because it's the most adaptable. I did for more than a decade. Even now my TV is really just a big screen with a little dedicated computer attached. I don't see sharp divisions, just a continuum of usages.
iPads (Iand the Adroid ASUS that I have) are awkward to use if you want to do a bit more than read a book or watch a movie. Most of this is down to who fat the human finger is and how horrible even the best on-screen keyboards are to use. I'd really, really like to be able to play Civilization 4 on mine, for example, but I can't imagine how the interface could be simplified enough.
However, tablets are the best comic book readers ever.
posted by bonehead at 2:32 PM on August 22, 2011
They're all screens that do computery things, even tvs these days. I know quite a number of people that "get by" with a laptop as their only device simply because it's the most adaptable. I did for more than a decade. Even now my TV is really just a big screen with a little dedicated computer attached. I don't see sharp divisions, just a continuum of usages.
iPads (Iand the Adroid ASUS that I have) are awkward to use if you want to do a bit more than read a book or watch a movie. Most of this is down to who fat the human finger is and how horrible even the best on-screen keyboards are to use. I'd really, really like to be able to play Civilization 4 on mine, for example, but I can't imagine how the interface could be simplified enough.
However, tablets are the best comic book readers ever.
posted by bonehead at 2:32 PM on August 22, 2011
device55, there are a bunch of all-in-one PCs that are pretty close to that now. These Lenovo things for example. The big iMacs are also in the same ballpark. I don't see a huge advantage over a regular desktop system for either. In fact, I rather have a thinkpad or powerbook.
I can't speak for the Lenovo line, but iMacs are about 3 inches thick (at their thickest point) - if they were less than half an inch thick, with a big touch interface, it might be a different thing. Maybe.
But today they're all-in-one desktops that plug into the wall and have big skinny hard drives.
posted by device55 at 2:33 PM on August 22, 2011
I can't speak for the Lenovo line, but iMacs are about 3 inches thick (at their thickest point) - if they were less than half an inch thick, with a big touch interface, it might be a different thing. Maybe.
But today they're all-in-one desktops that plug into the wall and have big skinny hard drives.
posted by device55 at 2:33 PM on August 22, 2011
The only thing I want from my iPod Touch that it's never going to have is more bloody hardware buttons. I have an Android phone and I really miss the hardware back button (even though it doesn't always behave consistently across apps), and I find Tweetdeck on my phone much easier to use for the same reason. Given my occasionally unreliable fingers, a big pressable button is preferable to various combinations of pinches and two- and three-finger taps and slides.
oh and why isn't there a brightness slider on the double-click menu? I like to read books in the dark and change music tracks in the sunlight and your auto-brightness just don't work, Steve
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:34 PM on August 22, 2011
oh and why isn't there a brightness slider on the double-click menu? I like to read books in the dark and change music tracks in the sunlight and your auto-brightness just don't work, Steve
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 2:34 PM on August 22, 2011
For example, MACs can't play games and only have a one button mouse.
This is either a brilliant bit of satire (right down to the capitalized Mac), or a piece of "2002 called. They want their GRAR back". Just can't decide...
posted by Thorzdad at 2:36 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
This is either a brilliant bit of satire (right down to the capitalized Mac), or a piece of "2002 called. They want their GRAR back". Just can't decide...
posted by Thorzdad at 2:36 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have a computer, if I want to do computer things, I use the computer. If I want to screw around, I use my Ipad.
Tell that to all the people who claim tablets are going to make real computers obsolete.
posted by kmz at 2:41 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Tell that to all the people who claim tablets are going to make real computers obsolete.
posted by kmz at 2:41 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
ArmyOfKittens - for easy access to brightness, jailbreak and install SBsettings. 2 flicks to change brightness (and a bunch of other things).
isnotchicago - splashtop is great for moving whatever you're doing on pc to your phone. Watching a movie, or listening to an album and need to go get your laundry? Just turn it on and walk out of the room without missing a beat.
Doing anything more complex might be a bit difficult unless you had an external keyboard. But it does turn your phone / ipad into a nice terminal for your computer.
posted by stratastar at 2:46 PM on August 22, 2011
isnotchicago - splashtop is great for moving whatever you're doing on pc to your phone. Watching a movie, or listening to an album and need to go get your laundry? Just turn it on and walk out of the room without missing a beat.
Doing anything more complex might be a bit difficult unless you had an external keyboard. But it does turn your phone / ipad into a nice terminal for your computer.
posted by stratastar at 2:46 PM on August 22, 2011
Looking at this from a different and slightly paranoid direction: How will this screw with the actual Win 8 OS to make it worse? Could it? I am very happy with Win 7 64 bit. Will this end up being a kludge or a step backwards?
posted by Splunge at 2:52 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by Splunge at 2:52 PM on August 22, 2011
Now, you have a work screen with a thick, perpetual smear of fingerprints, as if a billion-billion sales people had descended upon your workstation and pointed at every single thing they wanted changed in every document you ever created.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a billion salesmen smearing fingerprints on your pristine work screen — forever.
posted by grouse at 2:54 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a billion salesmen smearing fingerprints on your pristine work screen — forever.
posted by grouse at 2:54 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Microsoft should call it the BallmerPad. Or just BallPad.
I see what you did there.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:54 PM on August 22, 2011
I see what you did there.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:54 PM on August 22, 2011
I'm sorry you didn't take the time to learn how to use the device
Pages for the iPad was not out at the time, and iOS 3 did not have the "open in" feature. The bigger complaint was that I couldn't "download" a file. My only option to access work email was through a web client, but with the spotty hotel connection, I couldn't reliably connect to keep accessing the file.
posted by Popular Ethics at 2:57 PM on August 22, 2011
Pages for the iPad was not out at the time, and iOS 3 did not have the "open in" feature. The bigger complaint was that I couldn't "download" a file. My only option to access work email was through a web client, but with the spotty hotel connection, I couldn't reliably connect to keep accessing the file.
posted by Popular Ethics at 2:57 PM on August 22, 2011
oh and why isn't there a brightness slider on the double-click menu? I like to read books in the dark and change music tracks in the sunlight and your auto-brightness just don't work, Steve
There is, on the iPad at least - double click the button and swipe to the right.
What Steve jobs gets, and MS fanboys here are missing, is that IT'S NOT A COMPUTER.
Exactly. If you use it for stuff it's good at, a tablet is a pleasure; if you try to use it like a proper computer it's bloody painful.
It's obvious from discussions like this that people really want a proper computer in the shape of a tablet, but that's going to require hardware improvements - better batteries, boringly - and some wild new user interface stuff. Or some old UI stuff - I'm pretty sure I could've written this comment faster on one of my Newtons (still going strong!) or even in Graffiti on a Palm device.
posted by jack_mo at 2:58 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
There is, on the iPad at least - double click the button and swipe to the right.
What Steve jobs gets, and MS fanboys here are missing, is that IT'S NOT A COMPUTER.
Exactly. If you use it for stuff it's good at, a tablet is a pleasure; if you try to use it like a proper computer it's bloody painful.
It's obvious from discussions like this that people really want a proper computer in the shape of a tablet, but that's going to require hardware improvements - better batteries, boringly - and some wild new user interface stuff. Or some old UI stuff - I'm pretty sure I could've written this comment faster on one of my Newtons (still going strong!) or even in Graffiti on a Palm device.
posted by jack_mo at 2:58 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
How will this screw with the actual Win 8 OS to make it worse? Could it?
Well, it will be an even-numbered version of windows. We already know it will be crap, this just tells us how MS will make it crap.
posted by bonehead at 2:58 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Well, it will be an even-numbered version of windows. We already know it will be crap, this just tells us how MS will make it crap.
posted by bonehead at 2:58 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
I don't want a tablet. And I think most people who do either already have one, or would never even imagine waiting on a Windows version is what's holding them back.
Said another way - A Windows tablet takes a form factor I already don't want, and then makes me want it even less.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:07 PM on August 22, 2011
Said another way - A Windows tablet takes a form factor I already don't want, and then makes me want it even less.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:07 PM on August 22, 2011
What we have are a set of tools that accomplish individual tasks. Windows and Mac software that you purchase, are massive bundles of these task-tool pairings (photoshop, office) etc.
Tablets and mobile phones distill this fact down through well designed apps (that have to be found and downloaded) that do much smaller tasks more intimately and sometimes better. The software can only do one thing, so your attention can only focus on getting this one thing done.
When you need a full computer to do multiple tasks at once, this system breaks down.
posted by stratastar at 3:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Tablets and mobile phones distill this fact down through well designed apps (that have to be found and downloaded) that do much smaller tasks more intimately and sometimes better. The software can only do one thing, so your attention can only focus on getting this one thing done.
When you need a full computer to do multiple tasks at once, this system breaks down.
posted by stratastar at 3:07 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
some wild new user interface stuff
There are some interesting innovators in some of the apps. The radial edge menus in the default Android browser are surprisingly not horrible. Evernote is doing some pretty neat things too. Some of the file management apps on Android have some interesting ideas---an intermediate scratch zone for copy/paste to get around the inability to multiselect with a finger. The scratch zone thing is actually more functional than a traditional clipboard.
It's coming, but I think it's going to take a while to get there. This is why I don't believe the "iPads are perfect, but only for iPaddy things" argument. Like personal computers before the mouse and graphical interface, these devices are really capable, we just don't know how to use them yet.
posted by bonehead at 3:11 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
There are some interesting innovators in some of the apps. The radial edge menus in the default Android browser are surprisingly not horrible. Evernote is doing some pretty neat things too. Some of the file management apps on Android have some interesting ideas---an intermediate scratch zone for copy/paste to get around the inability to multiselect with a finger. The scratch zone thing is actually more functional than a traditional clipboard.
It's coming, but I think it's going to take a while to get there. This is why I don't believe the "iPads are perfect, but only for iPaddy things" argument. Like personal computers before the mouse and graphical interface, these devices are really capable, we just don't know how to use them yet.
posted by bonehead at 3:11 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
What's ironic about this dismissal is that the ones who say this stuff are the same ones running HP, Motorola, RIM and other companies into the ground.
Because these people are functionally incapable of understanding why the iPad is successful, they can't do anything but dismiss iPad owners as shallow and stupid.
In the meantime, while the gripers gripe and Google's copycats copy, iPad users keep doing useful, original and interesting things with their computers.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:15 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
What's ironic about this dismissal is that the ones who say this stuff are the same ones running HP, Motorola, RIM and other companies into the ground.
Because these people are functionally incapable of understanding why the iPad is successful, they can't do anything but dismiss iPad owners as shallow and stupid.
In the meantime, while the gripers gripe and Google's copycats copy, iPad users keep doing useful, original and interesting things with their computers.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:15 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
>The problem with Apple products is that Apple is deciding what can be done and what can't be done.
For example, MACs can't play games and only have a one button mouse.
Well, just take my word that for it that I'm commenting in good faith, and trying to be respectful, but is there any reason why batteries cannot be easily swapped out of an iPhone? Why is no porn allowed on the iPhone or iOS? What about the limited ability to access on-board storage? How come iTunes is necessary? Why isn't the app market more open?
At the end of the day, these are just academic questions to me. I don't use Apple products because I don't earn enough money to be able to afford them.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:21 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
For example, MACs can't play games and only have a one button mouse.
Well, just take my word that for it that I'm commenting in good faith, and trying to be respectful, but is there any reason why batteries cannot be easily swapped out of an iPhone? Why is no porn allowed on the iPhone or iOS? What about the limited ability to access on-board storage? How come iTunes is necessary? Why isn't the app market more open?
At the end of the day, these are just academic questions to me. I don't use Apple products because I don't earn enough money to be able to afford them.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:21 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
is there any reason why batteries cannot be easily swapped out of an iPhone?
How many times have you seen an iPhone/iPad get dropped and have its batteries pop out?
How many times have you seen a Blackberry or Android get dropped and have its batteries pop out?
posted by Threeway Handshake at 3:24 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
How many times have you seen an iPhone/iPad get dropped and have its batteries pop out?
How many times have you seen a Blackberry or Android get dropped and have its batteries pop out?
posted by Threeway Handshake at 3:24 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's not like it's harder to watch Netflix or Skype your family on an Android based tablet than on an IPad.
posted by dave78981 at 1:09 PM on August 22 [+] [!]
It is harder to use netflix or Skype if your Android tablet isn't supported by those services.
posted by Amity at 3:25 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by dave78981 at 1:09 PM on August 22 [+] [!]
It is harder to use netflix or Skype if your Android tablet isn't supported by those services.
posted by Amity at 3:25 PM on August 22, 2011
isnotchicago:On preview: notyou, what do you use Splashtop to do? Any success/horror stories?
So far:
Still haven't used it to write or edit any docs, but then, I haven't done that with the tablet at all 'cause I don't like typing on the touchscreen.
posted by notyou at 3:32 PM on August 22, 2011
So far:
- Stream grooveshark (flash) to the ipad and thence to the garage boombox (so-so; the netbook does it with less lag).
- Browse with Chrome (using all my familiar boomarks, tabs, pws, etc)
- Read/respond to gmail without adding my login credentials to the iPad (the iPad is not really set up for multiple users).
- Reviewed Word docs.
Still haven't used it to write or edit any docs, but then, I haven't done that with the tablet at all 'cause I don't like typing on the touchscreen.
posted by notyou at 3:32 PM on August 22, 2011
It is harder to use netflix or Skype if your Android tablet isn't supported by those services.
Is Skype or Netflix actually not able to be ran on certain Android phones? Because, wow.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 3:33 PM on August 22, 2011
Is Skype or Netflix actually not able to be ran on certain Android phones? Because, wow.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 3:33 PM on August 22, 2011
I'd like to thank this thread for pointing me to Splashtop. It was on special offer, too!
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:33 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 3:33 PM on August 22, 2011
KokuRyu, porn IS allowed on the iPhone, via web browser. It's not on the app store for the same reason, presumably, that most towns don't allow liquor stores to dominate Main Street.
In other words, walled gardens tend to be carefully cultivated and looked after. As someone who lives in Japan, I'm sure you've seen your share of those. ; )
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:34 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
In other words, walled gardens tend to be carefully cultivated and looked after. As someone who lives in Japan, I'm sure you've seen your share of those. ; )
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:34 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
The other day I Googled "brunette princesses" because I was curious about these Brown-haired commoners marrying European royals. The entire first page of Google was disney and porn. Now, I don't watch porn, my gran doesn't watch porn, and I strongly prefer my kids don't meet porn before they are old enough to appreciate it. Just to say: as much as I am offended by Apple's censorship in theory, in practice it makes my life simpler. I guess that is what everyone is saying here. Apple is not for nerds. Its for grannies and five-year olds. And since there is a huge market among grannies and five-year olds, which MS has failed to address, Apple gets the money.
More seriously: useability and aestetics are neither opposites nor unrelated.
posted by mumimor at 3:44 PM on August 22, 2011
More seriously: useability and aestetics are neither opposites nor unrelated.
posted by mumimor at 3:44 PM on August 22, 2011
iPad's success isn't about ease of use, it's about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
What's ironic about this dismissal is that the ones who say this stuff are the same ones running HP, Motorola, RIM and other companies into the ground.
Because these people are functionally incapable of understanding why the iPad is successful, they can't do anything but dismiss iPad owners as shallow and stupid.
Except I own both an iPhone and an iPad. Somewhat telling that everyone took my appraisal for why they are successful devices as some kind of massive diss.
posted by nathancaswell at 3:46 PM on August 22, 2011
What's ironic about this dismissal is that the ones who say this stuff are the same ones running HP, Motorola, RIM and other companies into the ground.
Because these people are functionally incapable of understanding why the iPad is successful, they can't do anything but dismiss iPad owners as shallow and stupid.
Except I own both an iPhone and an iPad. Somewhat telling that everyone took my appraisal for why they are successful devices as some kind of massive diss.
posted by nathancaswell at 3:46 PM on August 22, 2011
The entire first page of Google was disney and porn.
Did you have SafeSearch turned off?
posted by kmz at 3:49 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Did you have SafeSearch turned off?
posted by kmz at 3:49 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
How come iTunes is necessary?
It won't be, once iOS 5 is released. You'll even be able to update the OS without being tethered.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
It won't be, once iOS 5 is released. You'll even be able to update the OS without being tethered.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 4:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
oh and why isn't there a brightness slider on the double-click menu? I like to read books in the dark and change music tracks in the sunlight and your auto-brightness just don't work, Steve
iBooks has its own handy brightness slider which only affects the current session.
posted by nicwolff at 4:21 PM on August 22, 2011
iBooks has its own handy brightness slider which only affects the current session.
posted by nicwolff at 4:21 PM on August 22, 2011
Somehow this turned into a massive testimonial to the One True Apple. It'll be schadenfreudelicious when Apple eventually gets knocked off its perch.
posted by dave78981 at 5:22 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by dave78981 at 5:22 PM on August 22, 2011
I don't use Apple products because I don't earn enough money to be able to afford them.
And the grapes were sour anyway.
posted by charlie don't surf at 5:50 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
And the grapes were sour anyway.
posted by charlie don't surf at 5:50 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Oooh! Stanza also has its own brightness. I turn the iOS brightness down, and then turn the app brightness DOOOOOWWWN so I can read in the pitchedblackness of night.
posted by stratastar at 5:52 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by stratastar at 5:52 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
It'll be schadenfreudelicious when Apple eventually gets knocked off its perch.
Why? It has only been a few years that Apple has had a perch to speak of.
Is there a German word for 'longing for the feeling of joy at another's misery?'
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
Why? It has only been a few years that Apple has had a perch to speak of.
Is there a German word for 'longing for the feeling of joy at another's misery?'
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]
It seems ludicrous to me to compete on the same turf as Apple at this point
Competition is good for consumers. Besides, since B&N cancelled my $99 TouchPad order if I'm going to get a tablet I'll have to wait for a Win8 tablet. I want an easily accessible file system and if I have to pay full price I'll just wait and see what Redmond comes up with. Or I'll just buy a new Lenovo laptop...
posted by MikeMc at 5:56 PM on August 22, 2011
Competition is good for consumers. Besides, since B&N cancelled my $99 TouchPad order if I'm going to get a tablet I'll have to wait for a Win8 tablet. I want an easily accessible file system and if I have to pay full price I'll just wait and see what Redmond comes up with. Or I'll just buy a new Lenovo laptop...
posted by MikeMc at 5:56 PM on August 22, 2011
It'll be schadenfreudelicious when Apple eventually gets knocked off its perch.
Competition is a good thing, but I'll bet 100:1 odds that Metafilter will be out of business long before Apple users are ever forced to look for alternatives...
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:04 PM on August 22, 2011
Competition is a good thing, but I'll bet 100:1 odds that Metafilter will be out of business long before Apple users are ever forced to look for alternatives...
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:04 PM on August 22, 2011
KokoRyu:
is there any reason why batteries cannot be easily swapped out of an iPhone?
The need for hinges, extra tolerances, and protection of other parts of the phone internals from fingers would require a thicker, heavier, less durable device.
Why is no porn allowed on the iPhone or iOS?
Because porn would hurt their brand and keep kids/prudes out of their store.
What about the limited ability to access on-board storage?
Prevents sideloading of unauthorized software/data. This can keep competitors out but also substantially reduces the support load.
How come iTunes is necessary?
Provides a single route for authorization/transfer of software and data. See previous answer.
Why isn't the app market more open?
Apple's goal is quality over quantity.
At least, those are my guesses. I think the main point is that all the things that people complain about not having in iDevices (or in most successful products) aren't the product of incompetence or neglect, but have very definite costs.
posted by bjrubble at 6:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
is there any reason why batteries cannot be easily swapped out of an iPhone?
The need for hinges, extra tolerances, and protection of other parts of the phone internals from fingers would require a thicker, heavier, less durable device.
Why is no porn allowed on the iPhone or iOS?
Because porn would hurt their brand and keep kids/prudes out of their store.
What about the limited ability to access on-board storage?
Prevents sideloading of unauthorized software/data. This can keep competitors out but also substantially reduces the support load.
How come iTunes is necessary?
Provides a single route for authorization/transfer of software and data. See previous answer.
Why isn't the app market more open?
Apple's goal is quality over quantity.
At least, those are my guesses. I think the main point is that all the things that people complain about not having in iDevices (or in most successful products) aren't the product of incompetence or neglect, but have very definite costs.
posted by bjrubble at 6:04 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
My point wasn't that others shouldn't compete., only that they need to compete smartly. Competitors can't really compete by making more expensive tablets. They have to drop prices to compete. Or be the first to market with some new gadget like Apple did with the Ipod. It's good to remeber that although they made good computers, they were nowhere in market share until the ipod came out.
I think it's a testament to the strength of the kool aid that acolytes don't think it's possible for apple to screw up. It'll happen eventually. For one thing, Jobs won't live forever
posted by dave78981 at 6:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think it's a testament to the strength of the kool aid that acolytes don't think it's possible for apple to screw up. It'll happen eventually. For one thing, Jobs won't live forever
posted by dave78981 at 6:23 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
My point wasn't that others shouldn't compete., only that they need to compete smartly. Competitors can't really compete by making more expensive tablets. They have to drop prices to compete.
They have to offer a superior system and/or undercut Apple substantially on price, and so far nobody appears to be able to do either (unless they're clearing inventory.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:34 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
They have to offer a superior system and/or undercut Apple substantially on price, and so far nobody appears to be able to do either (unless they're clearing inventory.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:34 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
I recenlty switched from an Ubuntu laptop + Sony phone to a MacBook + iPhone, precisely for "aesthetics and cultural cachet", both of which are bankable assets for a web developer.
posted by signal at 6:57 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by signal at 6:57 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Since I missed the WebOS thread, I'll repeat the "WebOS ran twice as fast on a hacked iPad as it did on HP's Touchpad" rumor here. Sure, the iPhone/iPad has a pleasingly designed minimalist operating system; it also has is really good hardware.
posted by subdee at 7:10 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 7:10 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Or HP/Palm has shitty hardware, take your pick! (A little from column A, a little from column B...)
posted by subdee at 7:11 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by subdee at 7:11 PM on August 22, 2011
I find it strange that there's so much animosity about Apple vs. Microsoft in the mobile space, that basically boils down to an assumption that one way or the other must be the "right" approach.
I think that the commentary in this thread has demonstrated that there's a demand for both PCs that exhibit tablet behavior, as well as tablets that meet the more targeted needs of most consumers who purchase them. They're different markets, to a degree, albeit with some overlap. I'll be very, very surprised if both camps don't continue to evolve towards the middle over time.
In the current mobile landscape, Microsoft is actually playing as smart or smarter of a game than any of the other competitors to Apple. Namely, they're leveraging their strengths as a company to produce a value proposition in the mobile space that is often unmet by Apple, by design. They're not trying to be the iPad, though I'm sure they'd be happy to take any market share that they could. They're trying to create a different value proposition. Now, it may or may not work, but I find it hard to argue with their strategy, given the facts on the ground. It certainly stands a better chance of long-term success in the market than trying to beat Apple at their own game.
Lastly, with regards to the failed PC tablet market over the last n years, sure, there are a number of business reasons for this, but I think it's nevertheless a bit short-sighted to overlook the huge limitations in technology and mobile mindshare that have been bridged over the past few years...again, credit where credit is due, largely because of Apple. Whether or not Microsoft wins the mobile PC space, I think it's inevitable that there is going to be significant demand in the tablet-as-PC market, and technology will keep pace to meet it eventually. Someone's going to be there.
posted by Brak at 7:20 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
I think that the commentary in this thread has demonstrated that there's a demand for both PCs that exhibit tablet behavior, as well as tablets that meet the more targeted needs of most consumers who purchase them. They're different markets, to a degree, albeit with some overlap. I'll be very, very surprised if both camps don't continue to evolve towards the middle over time.
In the current mobile landscape, Microsoft is actually playing as smart or smarter of a game than any of the other competitors to Apple. Namely, they're leveraging their strengths as a company to produce a value proposition in the mobile space that is often unmet by Apple, by design. They're not trying to be the iPad, though I'm sure they'd be happy to take any market share that they could. They're trying to create a different value proposition. Now, it may or may not work, but I find it hard to argue with their strategy, given the facts on the ground. It certainly stands a better chance of long-term success in the market than trying to beat Apple at their own game.
Lastly, with regards to the failed PC tablet market over the last n years, sure, there are a number of business reasons for this, but I think it's nevertheless a bit short-sighted to overlook the huge limitations in technology and mobile mindshare that have been bridged over the past few years...again, credit where credit is due, largely because of Apple. Whether or not Microsoft wins the mobile PC space, I think it's inevitable that there is going to be significant demand in the tablet-as-PC market, and technology will keep pace to meet it eventually. Someone's going to be there.
posted by Brak at 7:20 PM on August 22, 2011 [5 favorites]
Well, just take my word that for it that I'm commenting in good faith, and trying to be respectful, but is there any reason why batteries cannot be easily swapped out of an iPhone? Why is no porn allowed on the iPhone or iOS? What about the limited ability to access on-board storage? How come iTunes is necessary? Why isn't the app market more open?
At the end of the day, it's about complete and total control of the user experience. Apple obsesses and manages over every single detail to hopefully provide a positive user experience, by blocking off potential problem areas, and smoothing over rough spots.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:24 PM on August 22, 2011
At the end of the day, it's about complete and total control of the user experience. Apple obsesses and manages over every single detail to hopefully provide a positive user experience, by blocking off potential problem areas, and smoothing over rough spots.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:24 PM on August 22, 2011
At the end of the day, it's about complete and total control of the user experience. Apple obsesses and manages over every single detail to hopefully provide a positive user experience, by blocking off potential problem areas, and smoothing over rough spots.
Not really. Its about Apple realizing you can't be all things to all people. We had this discussion a while ago, when someone posted a link to a video of Steve Jobs' Q&A session at an Apple developer's conference, right after Apple bought Next. Jobs said, "Focus is about saying no."
Apple is perfectly willing to say no to ideas that take them in a direction they don't want to go (read: unprofitable), especially if that takes them to a larger market they can say yes to. I think this came up in that other thread when someone was whining that Apple was closed and didn't cater to open source ideals as expressed in projects like Stallman's GNU. I said that open source geeks weren't Apple's customers, and they were perfectly happy with that, if it meant the iPhone and iPad were open to hundreds of millions of customers who didn't give a shit about that sort of stuff.
posted by charlie don't surf at 7:58 PM on August 22, 2011
Not really. Its about Apple realizing you can't be all things to all people. We had this discussion a while ago, when someone posted a link to a video of Steve Jobs' Q&A session at an Apple developer's conference, right after Apple bought Next. Jobs said, "Focus is about saying no."
Apple is perfectly willing to say no to ideas that take them in a direction they don't want to go (read: unprofitable), especially if that takes them to a larger market they can say yes to. I think this came up in that other thread when someone was whining that Apple was closed and didn't cater to open source ideals as expressed in projects like Stallman's GNU. I said that open source geeks weren't Apple's customers, and they were perfectly happy with that, if it meant the iPhone and iPad were open to hundreds of millions of customers who didn't give a shit about that sort of stuff.
posted by charlie don't surf at 7:58 PM on August 22, 2011
Dear Anyone Else Who Thinks They Have A Chance In The iPad Market,posted by Trurl at 8:33 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
You don’t. The iPad is the fire that sucked all the oxygen out of the room. Apple zigged and you guys are still trying to figure out what a zag is. It’s sad really, to see companies that were once at the top of the NASDAQ stumble around digging for pocket change in your high-end sofa cushions.
It is time to stop looking and, like HP, face a simple truth – you can’t win playing the iPad game. Because it is not the tablet game. It is the iPad game. And you can’t make those. You can’t even manage to make something as good as those, at least not at that price. Apple has the channel locked up price wise. Tim Cook saw to that. You will never be able to build at the same cost they do and produce anything even close. And let’s just skip the whole integrated end-to-end platform discussion because you guys are just not built that way. ...
Apple did not beat you with the iPad. They beat you with the iPad market. A market they created out of the ashes of burning netbooks, low cost laptops, and PCs that no one really liked or wanted in the first place. There simply was no other option at the time available for them to buy otherwise. Apple created that option.
Just like the iPad created a whole option, and thus, new market (the one you keep calling the “tablet market”), the only way to compete is not to get into that market but to create a whole new one. One that will suck the life out of the iPad market. Something so disruptive, so mind blowing, so magical that, like the iPad, people will form lines around the block for months to get it.
Are there any cheap tablet-like devices I can get to simply read PDFs, along with maybe CBRs and EPUBs? Seems silly to pay hundreds of dollars for functionality I don't really want or need, but my phone's screen is kind of small.
posted by adamdschneider at 9:13 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by adamdschneider at 9:13 PM on August 22, 2011
seanmpuckett: Microsoft has, since the beginning of Microsoft, been building vehicles that do exactly that.
Your analogy of OS/tech corporations as vehicles reminded me of something that Neal Stephenson wrote. In the Beginning was the Command Line talks a lot about computers, operating systems, and the MS/Apple thing. His comparison? Well, it's somewhat similar to yours. He imagines a two car dealerships each selling a standardized model: One sells a trusty station wagon that isn't very pretty, but gets you from point A to B. That's Microsoft. The other sells sleek foreign sports cars that you can't open the hood on. That's Apple. But that's where it ends. You know that Unimog? Well, in Stephenson's analogy there's a dealership that has TANKS, and they're not even selling them, but giving it away. And you know who that is? Linux. Which is kind of funny, since the US government is starting to adopt Linux too.
Oh yeah, and something about BeOS being the Batmobile. Never used that system, but would like to try it based on his colorful description alone.
posted by FJT at 9:21 PM on August 22, 2011
Your analogy of OS/tech corporations as vehicles reminded me of something that Neal Stephenson wrote. In the Beginning was the Command Line talks a lot about computers, operating systems, and the MS/Apple thing. His comparison? Well, it's somewhat similar to yours. He imagines a two car dealerships each selling a standardized model: One sells a trusty station wagon that isn't very pretty, but gets you from point A to B. That's Microsoft. The other sells sleek foreign sports cars that you can't open the hood on. That's Apple. But that's where it ends. You know that Unimog? Well, in Stephenson's analogy there's a dealership that has TANKS, and they're not even selling them, but giving it away. And you know who that is? Linux. Which is kind of funny, since the US government is starting to adopt Linux too.
Oh yeah, and something about BeOS being the Batmobile. Never used that system, but would like to try it based on his colorful description alone.
posted by FJT at 9:21 PM on August 22, 2011
Are there any cheap tablet-like devices I can get to simply read PDFs, along with maybe CBRs and EPUBs?
Kindle can read PDFs. And I think there are ways to convert the other two formats to something more Kindle friendly too.
posted by FJT at 9:33 PM on August 22, 2011
Kindle can read PDFs. And I think there are ways to convert the other two formats to something more Kindle friendly too.
posted by FJT at 9:33 PM on August 22, 2011
Right now, your best bet would probably be to pick up a used or refurb Nook Color for around $200 and flash the CyanogenMod7 ROM on it (which is totally easy on the Nook). Then get something like the Aldiko app..
[Facepalm]
You can buy a new refurb iPad 1 for $299, and skip all that crap.
posted by charlie don't surf at 9:40 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
[Facepalm]
You can buy a new refurb iPad 1 for $299, and skip all that crap.
posted by charlie don't surf at 9:40 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
$79 for a a refurbed Velocity Micro Cruz if all you want to do is read books. And if you decide you want to tool around a little with Android after that, you can. No iTunes installation necessary.
posted by dave78981 at 9:44 PM on August 22, 2011
posted by dave78981 at 9:44 PM on August 22, 2011
"You can buy a new refurb iPad 1 for $299, and skip all that crap."
Who would be caught dead in public with an iPad 1? In a few months still owning an iPad 2 will be embarrassing enough. I guess you could find a case that wouldn't betray your poverty.
posted by MikeMc at 9:45 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
Who would be caught dead in public with an iPad 1? In a few months still owning an iPad 2 will be embarrassing enough. I guess you could find a case that wouldn't betray your poverty.
posted by MikeMc at 9:45 PM on August 22, 2011 [3 favorites]
"so magical that"
If you say "magical" again I will buy an iPad and use it to beat you into a coma.
posted by MikeMc at 9:46 PM on August 22, 2011
If you say "magical" again I will buy an iPad and use it to beat you into a coma.
posted by MikeMc at 9:46 PM on August 22, 2011
[Facepalm]
The reality is that the iPad costs more than a Nook. It doesn't matter that even Android bloggers think running Android on a Nook sucks, what ultimately matters is that it costs a few dollars less and therefore is superawesomenotakebacks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:00 PM on August 22, 2011
The reality is that the iPad costs more than a Nook. It doesn't matter that even Android bloggers think running Android on a Nook sucks, what ultimately matters is that it costs a few dollars less and therefore is superawesomenotakebacks.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:00 PM on August 22, 2011
"I'm sorry you didn't take the time to learn how to use the device (for example, installing Pages, which does both of the things you claim you couldn't do, or any number of competing non-first party solutions.) But if that's the case, how will you ever be able to use a more complicated device?"
Wow! You can cut that condescension with a MacBook Air. Besides, isn't the whole point that you don't have to learn how to use iOS devices? They're magical, they just work. Damnit, I said "magical", now I have to buy an iPad and beat Patrick Rhone into a coma.
posted by MikeMc at 10:03 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Wow! You can cut that condescension with a MacBook Air. Besides, isn't the whole point that you don't have to learn how to use iOS devices? They're magical, they just work. Damnit, I said "magical", now I have to buy an iPad and beat Patrick Rhone into a coma.
posted by MikeMc at 10:03 PM on August 22, 2011 [1 favorite]
Dude said "cheap". I answered with a cheap solution.
The refurb iPad comes with a 1 year warranty, your hack voids the warranty. But I suppose you couldn't rely on the warranty anyway, since Barnes & Noble is in Chapter 11.
How cheaply do you value your time? Futzing with that hack takes time, and I don't even want to think of the time you'd spend cursing at the HackNook trying to get it to actually do things, even the simplest things like playing Angry Birds, that runs on my 4 year old 1st Gen iPhone.
He asked for cheap, not penny wise and pound foolish.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:16 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
The refurb iPad comes with a 1 year warranty, your hack voids the warranty. But I suppose you couldn't rely on the warranty anyway, since Barnes & Noble is in Chapter 11.
How cheaply do you value your time? Futzing with that hack takes time, and I don't even want to think of the time you'd spend cursing at the HackNook trying to get it to actually do things, even the simplest things like playing Angry Birds, that runs on my 4 year old 1st Gen iPhone.
He asked for cheap, not penny wise and pound foolish.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:16 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
Apple is not for nerds. Its for grannies and five-year olds.
I personally know quite a few computer tech nerds who are die hard Apple users. Sometimes it's a preference. I live in a small town, however, so there are only so many nerds among the local population. But we're a town of artists and misfits of all types, and there are quite a few Mac users per capita compared to almost anywhere else I've lived. One of the best programmers I know lives here and uses Apple exclusively. He prefers it because of the great dev tools which can be used on Linux as well as his Macbook. He recently got an iPad for a contracting gig and loves it, but then he doesn't try to use it like a desktop or laptop. At the ISP where I used to work is a resident Mac guy, a geek of the highest order who will clean viruses off Windows but will not buy any MS products aside from XBox. He has a collection of old Macs, functional and still used. Also, the son of the owner of the ISP is a programmer himself and only uses Macs, specifically a Mac mini and a Macbook Pro, again because of *nix development compatibility. The ISP runs on Redhat, and he does development for it on his Mac.
Well, I could go on. Seriously, I have quite a few other stories about total computer nerd hardcore Apple users. I am not an Apple person per se, but I did IT support for years and encountered grannies and artists as well as nerdly nerd computer nerrrrrrrrds who swore by their Apple products. They may use their devices for different purposes, but they all preferred Apple's usability over MS' products. People talk about MS being an open box compared to Apple's closed box, but if you have to install Cygwin to use a decent terminal console and shell, it's not so open after all.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:25 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I personally know quite a few computer tech nerds who are die hard Apple users. Sometimes it's a preference. I live in a small town, however, so there are only so many nerds among the local population. But we're a town of artists and misfits of all types, and there are quite a few Mac users per capita compared to almost anywhere else I've lived. One of the best programmers I know lives here and uses Apple exclusively. He prefers it because of the great dev tools which can be used on Linux as well as his Macbook. He recently got an iPad for a contracting gig and loves it, but then he doesn't try to use it like a desktop or laptop. At the ISP where I used to work is a resident Mac guy, a geek of the highest order who will clean viruses off Windows but will not buy any MS products aside from XBox. He has a collection of old Macs, functional and still used. Also, the son of the owner of the ISP is a programmer himself and only uses Macs, specifically a Mac mini and a Macbook Pro, again because of *nix development compatibility. The ISP runs on Redhat, and he does development for it on his Mac.
Well, I could go on. Seriously, I have quite a few other stories about total computer nerd hardcore Apple users. I am not an Apple person per se, but I did IT support for years and encountered grannies and artists as well as nerdly nerd computer nerrrrrrrrds who swore by their Apple products. They may use their devices for different purposes, but they all preferred Apple's usability over MS' products. People talk about MS being an open box compared to Apple's closed box, but if you have to install Cygwin to use a decent terminal console and shell, it's not so open after all.
posted by krinklyfig at 10:25 PM on August 22, 2011 [4 favorites]
I would ask if this is something I'd need an iPad to understand, but my boss bought me one last night. I'm looking forward to seeing if it fares better than our iPhone did...
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 12:03 AM on August 23, 2011
posted by sodium lights the horizon at 12:03 AM on August 23, 2011
what ultimately matters is that it costs a few dollars less and therefore is superawesomenotakebacks.
BMW makes great cars. The M3 is incredible to drive. The M5 is even better. My current car cost less than half the price of an M3 in my part of the world.
Price may not matter to you and yours---congratulations on being on the top end of the income distribution curve!---but it does to a lot of people. Netbooks right now are less than half the price of a new iPad. I'd be the first to admit that a terribly declasse, offbrand netbook is harder to maintain, not as slick and not as pretty. But, guess what my niece who saved her 4H money for the past two years was able to afford? Hint: not an Apple product.
posted by bonehead at 12:16 AM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
BMW makes great cars. The M3 is incredible to drive. The M5 is even better. My current car cost less than half the price of an M3 in my part of the world.
Price may not matter to you and yours---congratulations on being on the top end of the income distribution curve!---but it does to a lot of people. Netbooks right now are less than half the price of a new iPad. I'd be the first to admit that a terribly declasse, offbrand netbook is harder to maintain, not as slick and not as pretty. But, guess what my niece who saved her 4H money for the past two years was able to afford? Hint: not an Apple product.
posted by bonehead at 12:16 AM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
congratulations on being on the top end of the income distribution curve!
I'll enjoy a good laugh with my boss on this one, right after I ask him for a raise in my non-profit job.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:28 AM on August 23, 2011
I'll enjoy a good laugh with my boss on this one, right after I ask him for a raise in my non-profit job.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:28 AM on August 23, 2011
bonehead: "offbrand netbook"
Doesn't even need to be offbrand. My local Currys (large UK electronics chain store) will sell me Asus, HP, Toshiba and Samsung netbooks for between £160 and £220, far less than the £340 Apple want for a refurb gen 1 iPad.
this is not intended to be a comment on the relative merits of netbooks and iPads
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 1:43 AM on August 23, 2011
Doesn't even need to be offbrand. My local Currys (large UK electronics chain store) will sell me Asus, HP, Toshiba and Samsung netbooks for between £160 and £220, far less than the £340 Apple want for a refurb gen 1 iPad.
this is not intended to be a comment on the relative merits of netbooks and iPads
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 1:43 AM on August 23, 2011
The important thing is that we all have a device we are happy to use, everywhere and anywhere, to watch YouTube videos and tweet about them. Don't talk to people and for the love of god don't observe the incredible world around you and sit and ponder it in quiet reflection. Just start caching those fucking YouTube videos.
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:56 AM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by tumid dahlia at 4:56 AM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
At last! Someone who understands me and my constant need for YouTube videos!
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 4:59 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 4:59 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
IT IS OK FOR US NERDS AND NOT-NERDS TO LIKE DIFFERENT THINGS! SOME OF THOSE DIFFERENT THINGS ARE APPLES AND SOME ARE MICROSOFTS AND THAT IS OK!
posted by Aizkolari at 5:02 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Aizkolari at 5:02 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
I have never understood the need some folks have to dismiss Apple products as things for people at the "top end of the income distribution curve," which just...I don't know, it's just a weird complaint about tools.
I've been near in the lower quarter of the income distribution curve for my entire adult life and in that time, I've bought Apple computers to do much of my creative work even when it's been a struggle to afford them for the simple reason that I want my machines to work, and work well. I don't want to screw around with virus software, or be constantly nagged by paperclips and little cartoonish text bubbles popping up to tell me things I already know, I don't care about first person shooters and adventure games, and I don't care to have to have a grasp of the complicated inner workings of my tools. I just want things to work.
I've got a netbook rather than an iPad, not because it was cheaper, but because my primary reason for wanting a subcomputer is for writing on the train, in the park, in my car, in a bar, or while I'm perched daintly on the toilet, and typing on an iPad with my clompy gorilla mitts sucks balls, and not in the best possible sense of ball sucking, either. It's the second one I've bought (the first, an Eee PC 900a, was too tiny for cuss-free typing, so it went to live with someone nice), an ASUS Eee PC 1005HAB, and the keyboard's big enough, the screen's the best one I've had (stupid faddish widescreen aspect ratio notwithstanding), and I've managed to come to a level of comfort with XP, even though it does do a lot of things I'd rather have neatly hidden behind a better user interface (I can't run anything past XP, because I use this thing as an editor for my pile of Nords).
If I didn't have a specific need for a physical keyboard, I'd probably buy myself a refurb iPad from the Apple Store for $349, because, like most of what Apple builds, it is usable and transparent in a way that makes it a worthwhile tool. There's a reason why even lower income craftspersons buy tools from Snap-On and Festool despite the fact that they can buy a low-fi version of the same thing at Harbor Freight—sometimes the fit and feel, the way the tool operates as an extension of one's will and intent, and a certain rightness of a tool is worth more than saving a little money.
Back in my youth, I practiced a rare technique called prioritization. When I was making $10566 a year gross, I bought a $1900 digital sampling keyboard that was the proper tool for the musical work I was doing, and I managed it with a combination of credit and restraint. Didn't waste my money drinking, smoking, or carousing (fornication, on the other hand, is surprisingly inexpensive), drove an old beater (and a moped, most of the time), didn't take expensive vacations involving air travel, ate at home, and bagged my lunches every day. Wasn't easy, but I wanted the best tool for the job and I worked out a way to get it. I made wonderful music on that machine, which, at twenty-two years old, is still working perfectly. Sometimes you have to decide whether you want to do things properly or not, even when you're not at the high end of the income curve.
These days, I've just crossed over into the middle class, in that I'm finally making a salary that 22 year-old graduates from more desirable degree programs get as their starting salary, and when my ratbag '72 Triumph left me on the side of the road again, I bought myself a barely-used '98 BMW F650ST. The little blue and white spinner plastered all over the thing is a little embarrassing for my socialist self, and I could have paid half the price for a decent Japanese bike of the same vintage, but BMWs, even the sort of muttly half-breed variety that includes the F-bikes, come from a company that works differently than most. BMW Motorrad still makes and stocks parts for some of their oldest models, and their bikes last forever. They probably cost too much, but if I take care of mine, I'll be trundling around on it twenty years from now.
You pay now, pay later, or pay in time and frustration when it comes to any tool, machine, or appliance. Sometimes, as in the case of my netbook, the "almost there" is indeed good enough, and that's okay, too. I love the Macbook Air, but it's not worth three times the cost of my Eee. If I was starting from scratch, and my laptop needed to do more than mine does, I might consider the Air. In time, I'll likely get an iPad to use as a musical instrument (my iPod Touch already fills this bill, thanks to some brilliant software, but my gorilla fingers are a bottleneck), but it's not about cachet. Android's fine, works well enough, but they didn't bother to build the OS in a way that encourages music apps. The timing's off, there are other problems, and regardless of my love for open source, it just wasn't built to work for the things I need. I'm in a minority there, and a very small part of the user base, but Apple made an effort to support my kind of work and the people behind Android didn't.
Sometimes you have to reward the people who think of the little things like that.
posted by sonascope at 5:47 AM on August 23, 2011 [8 favorites]
I've been near in the lower quarter of the income distribution curve for my entire adult life and in that time, I've bought Apple computers to do much of my creative work even when it's been a struggle to afford them for the simple reason that I want my machines to work, and work well. I don't want to screw around with virus software, or be constantly nagged by paperclips and little cartoonish text bubbles popping up to tell me things I already know, I don't care about first person shooters and adventure games, and I don't care to have to have a grasp of the complicated inner workings of my tools. I just want things to work.
I've got a netbook rather than an iPad, not because it was cheaper, but because my primary reason for wanting a subcomputer is for writing on the train, in the park, in my car, in a bar, or while I'm perched daintly on the toilet, and typing on an iPad with my clompy gorilla mitts sucks balls, and not in the best possible sense of ball sucking, either. It's the second one I've bought (the first, an Eee PC 900a, was too tiny for cuss-free typing, so it went to live with someone nice), an ASUS Eee PC 1005HAB, and the keyboard's big enough, the screen's the best one I've had (stupid faddish widescreen aspect ratio notwithstanding), and I've managed to come to a level of comfort with XP, even though it does do a lot of things I'd rather have neatly hidden behind a better user interface (I can't run anything past XP, because I use this thing as an editor for my pile of Nords).
If I didn't have a specific need for a physical keyboard, I'd probably buy myself a refurb iPad from the Apple Store for $349, because, like most of what Apple builds, it is usable and transparent in a way that makes it a worthwhile tool. There's a reason why even lower income craftspersons buy tools from Snap-On and Festool despite the fact that they can buy a low-fi version of the same thing at Harbor Freight—sometimes the fit and feel, the way the tool operates as an extension of one's will and intent, and a certain rightness of a tool is worth more than saving a little money.
Back in my youth, I practiced a rare technique called prioritization. When I was making $10566 a year gross, I bought a $1900 digital sampling keyboard that was the proper tool for the musical work I was doing, and I managed it with a combination of credit and restraint. Didn't waste my money drinking, smoking, or carousing (fornication, on the other hand, is surprisingly inexpensive), drove an old beater (and a moped, most of the time), didn't take expensive vacations involving air travel, ate at home, and bagged my lunches every day. Wasn't easy, but I wanted the best tool for the job and I worked out a way to get it. I made wonderful music on that machine, which, at twenty-two years old, is still working perfectly. Sometimes you have to decide whether you want to do things properly or not, even when you're not at the high end of the income curve.
These days, I've just crossed over into the middle class, in that I'm finally making a salary that 22 year-old graduates from more desirable degree programs get as their starting salary, and when my ratbag '72 Triumph left me on the side of the road again, I bought myself a barely-used '98 BMW F650ST. The little blue and white spinner plastered all over the thing is a little embarrassing for my socialist self, and I could have paid half the price for a decent Japanese bike of the same vintage, but BMWs, even the sort of muttly half-breed variety that includes the F-bikes, come from a company that works differently than most. BMW Motorrad still makes and stocks parts for some of their oldest models, and their bikes last forever. They probably cost too much, but if I take care of mine, I'll be trundling around on it twenty years from now.
You pay now, pay later, or pay in time and frustration when it comes to any tool, machine, or appliance. Sometimes, as in the case of my netbook, the "almost there" is indeed good enough, and that's okay, too. I love the Macbook Air, but it's not worth three times the cost of my Eee. If I was starting from scratch, and my laptop needed to do more than mine does, I might consider the Air. In time, I'll likely get an iPad to use as a musical instrument (my iPod Touch already fills this bill, thanks to some brilliant software, but my gorilla fingers are a bottleneck), but it's not about cachet. Android's fine, works well enough, but they didn't bother to build the OS in a way that encourages music apps. The timing's off, there are other problems, and regardless of my love for open source, it just wasn't built to work for the things I need. I'm in a minority there, and a very small part of the user base, but Apple made an effort to support my kind of work and the people behind Android didn't.
Sometimes you have to reward the people who think of the little things like that.
posted by sonascope at 5:47 AM on August 23, 2011 [8 favorites]
Microsoft could pull this off, i.e. make a half way decent tablet. Once they do, there will be tons of IT managers who will buy them for the workers and boom, a defacto standard will be in place. It won't have to be a great tablet or even a good one, it'll just have to be good enough to run Office for a 3-5 hours.
They'll probably be able to do that faster than Apple can get people using iWorks regularly. So Microsoft wins? Not necessarily. The problem is that it talks about what Microsoft is gonna do (i.e. vapor ware). It's not like Apple is going to stop improving the iPad, iOS or iPhone. But Microsoft is trying to do something most others aren't, i.e. aim where Apple is gonna be, not where Apple is not. Tablets as a user's main computer is coming. You, me, Apple, Microsoft and Google know it. It's just a matter of when and gets there first with the right combination of features and price. So far, Apple is not only the lead, it is the market, even though Microsoft has been trying to sell tablets for 20 years.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:49 AM on August 23, 2011
They'll probably be able to do that faster than Apple can get people using iWorks regularly. So Microsoft wins? Not necessarily. The problem is that it talks about what Microsoft is gonna do (i.e. vapor ware). It's not like Apple is going to stop improving the iPad, iOS or iPhone. But Microsoft is trying to do something most others aren't, i.e. aim where Apple is gonna be, not where Apple is not. Tablets as a user's main computer is coming. You, me, Apple, Microsoft and Google know it. It's just a matter of when and gets there first with the right combination of features and price. So far, Apple is not only the lead, it is the market, even though Microsoft has been trying to sell tablets for 20 years.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:49 AM on August 23, 2011
I have an iPad 2. My 4 year old daughter sometimes lets me use it.
posted by grubby at 6:09 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by grubby at 6:09 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
I was thinking of getting an HP touchpad for $99, but I showed up to Best Buy on sunday, and they were all sold out.
I did play around with some of the other tablets though. The android ones seemed overdone Maybe widgets are a good idea, but by default they should be disabled until the user adds them. Also, animated backgrounds Having all those widgets just makes the thing look confusing. On the other hand, I thought the iPad seemed boring. And the lack of an android-style back button was annoying.
Windows 8 looks ridiculous.
Actually, I think a tablet that's basically just a browser would have been pretty good -- and that's basically what WebOS was.. Apps, IMO are kind of a step backwards in a way. You can do pretty much everything that a native app can do in HTML5 these days.
Ah well.
What's amazing about these debates is the way people take it so personally if you don't like the same stuff they like. I mean, all of the things people judge these tablets on is mostly subjective but people act like if you disagree with them you're insane for having different preferences.
Like for example:
Or a comment about how Apple controls the platform, with examples, and the response is "Well, apple has good reasons for doing that"
That's the other mind boggling thing about this. People actually seem offended by the fact that other people don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on the same toys they do.
posted by delmoi at 6:37 AM on August 23, 2011 [6 favorites]
I did play around with some of the other tablets though. The android ones seemed overdone Maybe widgets are a good idea, but by default they should be disabled until the user adds them. Also, animated backgrounds Having all those widgets just makes the thing look confusing. On the other hand, I thought the iPad seemed boring. And the lack of an android-style back button was annoying.
Windows 8 looks ridiculous.
Actually, I think a tablet that's basically just a browser would have been pretty good -- and that's basically what WebOS was.. Apps, IMO are kind of a step backwards in a way. You can do pretty much everything that a native app can do in HTML5 these days.
Ah well.
What's amazing about these debates is the way people take it so personally if you don't like the same stuff they like. I mean, all of the things people judge these tablets on is mostly subjective but people act like if you disagree with them you're insane for having different preferences.
Like for example:
I'm sorry you didn't take the time to learn how to use the device (for example, installing Pages, which does both of the things you claim you couldn't do, or any number of competing non-first party solutions.) But if that's the case, how will you ever be able to use a more complicated device?i.e. "iPads are easy to use, even babies can use it!" and then if someone has trouble with it it's like "OMG ur so dumb!"
Or a comment about how Apple controls the platform, with examples, and the response is "Well, apple has good reasons for doing that"
I find it strange that there's so much animosity about Apple vs. Microsoft in the mobile space, that basically boils down to an assumption that one way or the other must be the "right" approach.Actually, Microsoft seems totally irrelevant at this point.
How cheaply do you value your time? Futzing with that hack takes time, and I don't even want to think of the time you'd spend cursing at the HackNook trying to get it to actually do things, even the simplest things like playing Angry Birds, that runs on my 4 year old 1st Gen iPhone.I realize it can be shocking to Apple users that some people might rather spend an hour of their time flashing a ROM rather then $100. (which is the price difference between the refurb iPad and the nook)
That's the other mind boggling thing about this. People actually seem offended by the fact that other people don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on the same toys they do.
posted by delmoi at 6:37 AM on August 23, 2011 [6 favorites]
"I realize it can be shocking to Apple users that some people might rather spend an hour of their time flashing a ROM rather then $100."
You don't even have to do that. You can buy pre-loaded micro-SD cards. Turn ∩ook off, insert card, turn ∩ook on...presto! Honeycomb tablet.
posted by MikeMc at 7:19 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
You don't even have to do that. You can buy pre-loaded micro-SD cards. Turn ∩ook off, insert card, turn ∩ook on...presto! Honeycomb tablet.
posted by MikeMc at 7:19 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I have a rooted Nook Color that I enjoy using
...as an eReader
posted by Mick at 7:29 AM on August 23, 2011
...as an eReader
posted by Mick at 7:29 AM on August 23, 2011
Honestly, sonascope, a lot of the Apple backlash stems from the attitudes of Apple customers. It just seems weird to some of us to have such strong product identification, in an uncanny valley sort of way. Also, by now we all know you think "it just works," and other products don't, but however true it may have been in the past (and in my opinion it has always been overblown), it's an outdated attitude now, and whatever the case may be you guys just won't quit going on and on about it. So.
About the only thing I have ever unequivocally said "this just works better" to was when I was able to sit down and plug my HTC Thunderbolt into my girlfriend's old Macbook and start working in App Inventor right away as opposed to having to find unadvertised drivers for the phone to do the same thing in Windows, which honestly was pretty amusing.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:41 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
About the only thing I have ever unequivocally said "this just works better" to was when I was able to sit down and plug my HTC Thunderbolt into my girlfriend's old Macbook and start working in App Inventor right away as opposed to having to find unadvertised drivers for the phone to do the same thing in Windows, which honestly was pretty amusing.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:41 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
Some fallacies corrected:
em>But I suppose you couldn't rely on the warranty anyway, since Barnes & Noble is in Chapter 11.
Barnes and Noble is not in Chapter 11. Largely because of the Nook.
To the person who fears accidentally stumbling onto some porn outside of the closed Apple garden:
I have had an Android device since 2008 when the first HTC Dream showed up on TMobil as the G1. I have never "accidentally" stumbled onto porn. I have downloaded and sideloaded apps the whole time and not once have I ever installed malware, spam engines or porn, despite having 400+ apps installed at any given time. The Android Market, while a little confusing and messy, is not opaque to search. (This is Google after all)
My google settings seem to revert on their own to moderate Safesearch, so this story that nekkid bodies just appeared on your screen at work is.... dubious, at best.
Apple is definitely better at one thing- the evangelism of its user base.
posted by dave78981 at 8:12 AM on August 23, 2011
em>But I suppose you couldn't rely on the warranty anyway, since Barnes & Noble is in Chapter 11.
Barnes and Noble is not in Chapter 11. Largely because of the Nook.
To the person who fears accidentally stumbling onto some porn outside of the closed Apple garden:
I have had an Android device since 2008 when the first HTC Dream showed up on TMobil as the G1. I have never "accidentally" stumbled onto porn. I have downloaded and sideloaded apps the whole time and not once have I ever installed malware, spam engines or porn, despite having 400+ apps installed at any given time. The Android Market, while a little confusing and messy, is not opaque to search. (This is Google after all)
My google settings seem to revert on their own to moderate Safesearch, so this story that nekkid bodies just appeared on your screen at work is.... dubious, at best.
Apple is definitely better at one thing- the evangelism of its user base.
posted by dave78981 at 8:12 AM on August 23, 2011
Yeah, SafeSearch likes to turn itself on, much to my annoyance.
posted by adamdschneider at 8:20 AM on August 23, 2011
posted by adamdschneider at 8:20 AM on August 23, 2011
Don't talk to people and for the love of god don't observe the incredible world around you and sit and ponder it in quiet reflection.
Excuse me Mr. Thoreau, the pencil factory called and you're needed at work.
posted by mecran01 at 9:03 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
Excuse me Mr. Thoreau, the pencil factory called and you're needed at work.
posted by mecran01 at 9:03 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
Microsoft could pull this off, i.e. make a half way decent tablet.
But they haven't. Meanwhile, Apple is ramping up for the 3rd generation of its smash hit iPad. They defined the market, and have made strategic investments in hardware component suppliers so that nobody, not even Microsoft or HP, can compete on price. I don't see how anyone can catch up.
You know, I think this might be the end of the computer revolution for a long time. And that's coming from a guy who learned computing by using punched cards on an IBM/360 and soldered together his own homebrew 8080A microcomputer. The iPad is the culmination of a lot of goals that have been unfulfilled for ages. Ubiquitous computing with connectivity that works everywhere. "Golden Convergence" of media and computing. The Apple "Knowledge Navigator" concept. The computing appliance that the original Macintosh was envisioned to be. What are you going to do now? Make it lighter, thinner, and faster? That's merely incremental improvement. What's the next leap, cortical implants?
posted by charlie don't surf at 9:10 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
But they haven't. Meanwhile, Apple is ramping up for the 3rd generation of its smash hit iPad. They defined the market, and have made strategic investments in hardware component suppliers so that nobody, not even Microsoft or HP, can compete on price. I don't see how anyone can catch up.
You know, I think this might be the end of the computer revolution for a long time. And that's coming from a guy who learned computing by using punched cards on an IBM/360 and soldered together his own homebrew 8080A microcomputer. The iPad is the culmination of a lot of goals that have been unfulfilled for ages. Ubiquitous computing with connectivity that works everywhere. "Golden Convergence" of media and computing. The Apple "Knowledge Navigator" concept. The computing appliance that the original Macintosh was envisioned to be. What are you going to do now? Make it lighter, thinner, and faster? That's merely incremental improvement. What's the next leap, cortical implants?
posted by charlie don't surf at 9:10 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
[An MS tablet] won't have to be a great tablet or even a good one, it'll just have to be good enough to run Office for a 3-5 hours.
I'm hoping that it will be better than this, though I don't doubt that the Wizards of Redmond will find a way to dash my hopes again.
As I was trying to say above, it's pretty much impossible to use tablets to create a workflow. The OS, both iOS and Android are designed to discourage passing documents and data between "Apps". Apps individually manage "libraries" of documents/books/etc in stovepipes. It is possible to "move" a document, say a .doc, between applications (mail to PAges, for example), but it's a total pain, often involving special work arounds and third party tools. Android is marginally better, but suffers from the same library-centric managed data design model.
Now I'm not saying we need to go back to directories, folders and raw filesystem views. Microsoft has already shown us one really slick set of ideas: the cancelled Courier project. It's a data-centric view, but transparently about the data, no intermediate bumf from the OS (like filenames, locations or whatnot).
That's the kind of tablet I want, one more like an actual pen and paper notebook, the thing Stevenson promised us in The Diamond Age. If MS can bring a working "courier" interface in Windows 8, or even starts to integrate one, I think you'll see the market thunder to their products. The Android and iOS devices will look like toys in comparison. I really think we don't really have a good understanding of how best to use these things yet. We need an interface other than the windows/icon/mouse and phone models.
posted by bonehead at 9:16 AM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm hoping that it will be better than this, though I don't doubt that the Wizards of Redmond will find a way to dash my hopes again.
As I was trying to say above, it's pretty much impossible to use tablets to create a workflow. The OS, both iOS and Android are designed to discourage passing documents and data between "Apps". Apps individually manage "libraries" of documents/books/etc in stovepipes. It is possible to "move" a document, say a .doc, between applications (mail to PAges, for example), but it's a total pain, often involving special work arounds and third party tools. Android is marginally better, but suffers from the same library-centric managed data design model.
Now I'm not saying we need to go back to directories, folders and raw filesystem views. Microsoft has already shown us one really slick set of ideas: the cancelled Courier project. It's a data-centric view, but transparently about the data, no intermediate bumf from the OS (like filenames, locations or whatnot).
That's the kind of tablet I want, one more like an actual pen and paper notebook, the thing Stevenson promised us in The Diamond Age. If MS can bring a working "courier" interface in Windows 8, or even starts to integrate one, I think you'll see the market thunder to their products. The Android and iOS devices will look like toys in comparison. I really think we don't really have a good understanding of how best to use these things yet. We need an interface other than the windows/icon/mouse and phone models.
posted by bonehead at 9:16 AM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
You know, I think this might be the end of the computer revolution for a long time.
I hope not. A long pause maybe, but not the end. I hope someone rises to challenge Apple too.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:18 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
I hope not. A long pause maybe, but not the end. I hope someone rises to challenge Apple too.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:18 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
Also, by now we all know you think "it just works," and other products don't, but however true it may have been in the past (and in my opinion it has always been overblown), it's an outdated attitude now
Yeah. It's like they took arguments from the 1990s and and just replaced "Mac" with "iOS" and "Windows" with "Android" It's great that 5 year olds don't have any trouble with the iPad, but not everyone wants to be treated like a toddler.
posted by delmoi at 9:21 AM on August 23, 2011
Yeah. It's like they took arguments from the 1990s and and just replaced "Mac" with "iOS" and "Windows" with "Android" It's great that 5 year olds don't have any trouble with the iPad, but not everyone wants to be treated like a toddler.
posted by delmoi at 9:21 AM on August 23, 2011
"Ubiquitous computing with connectivity that works everywhere."
Sort of. A 16Gb iPad 2 with 3G is $629.00 + a $25/mo. data plan and that is a relatively steep buy in for "almost" a computer that has connectivity "almost" everywhere.
What are you going to do now? Make it lighter, thinner, and faster?
Make it as universally accessible as possible. The rent is too damn high. Less expensive hardware, less expensive bandwidth. We have a long, long way to go to ubiquity.
posted by MikeMc at 9:27 AM on August 23, 2011
Sort of. A 16Gb iPad 2 with 3G is $629.00 + a $25/mo. data plan and that is a relatively steep buy in for "almost" a computer that has connectivity "almost" everywhere.
What are you going to do now? Make it lighter, thinner, and faster?
Make it as universally accessible as possible. The rent is too damn high. Less expensive hardware, less expensive bandwidth. We have a long, long way to go to ubiquity.
posted by MikeMc at 9:27 AM on August 23, 2011
Yeah. It's like they took arguments from the 1990s and and just replaced "Mac" with "iOS" and "Windows" with "Android."
You mean like this?
posted by entropicamericana at 9:29 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
You mean like this?
"iOS devices are overpriced, locked-down toys for fanboys. If you want to do real work, buy an Android device."I know, that shit is really fucking lazy and not even true!
posted by entropicamericana at 9:29 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
The rent is too damn high. Less expensive hardware, less expensive bandwidth.
I think my "lighter, thinner, and faster" kind of implies "cheaper." You know, that's one of the most interesting things about the microcomputer revolution. My first serious computer from 1976, a SOL-20, cost $2129 MSRP (although I built it from a kit for about $1000, and added 2 RAM boards that brought it up to about $2200). While real dollars have inflated since then, PCs have always cost about $2200. It was a long, long time until that barrier was broken. Hardware improvements kept giving you more capacity for that $2200, but the manufacturers always tried to keep the minimum price at that point. Then, at some point, the components got cheap enough, and the product was commoditized enough that the manufacturers could compete on price. Brand name PCs could be bought for $500-700, or less. You might call this a "race to the bottom" until Apple set up radical new designs near that price point.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:02 AM on August 23, 2011
I think my "lighter, thinner, and faster" kind of implies "cheaper." You know, that's one of the most interesting things about the microcomputer revolution. My first serious computer from 1976, a SOL-20, cost $2129 MSRP (although I built it from a kit for about $1000, and added 2 RAM boards that brought it up to about $2200). While real dollars have inflated since then, PCs have always cost about $2200. It was a long, long time until that barrier was broken. Hardware improvements kept giving you more capacity for that $2200, but the manufacturers always tried to keep the minimum price at that point. Then, at some point, the components got cheap enough, and the product was commoditized enough that the manufacturers could compete on price. Brand name PCs could be bought for $500-700, or less. You might call this a "race to the bottom" until Apple set up radical new designs near that price point.
posted by charlie don't surf at 10:02 AM on August 23, 2011
You can buy a new refurb iPad 1 for $299, and skip all that crap.
yeah, but getting the e-ink screen onto the ipad is a whole new kettle of crap.
posted by kenko at 10:03 AM on August 23, 2011
yeah, but getting the e-ink screen onto the ipad is a whole new kettle of crap.
posted by kenko at 10:03 AM on August 23, 2011
You know who else was all about aesthetics and cultural cachet.
posted by vicx at 10:23 AM on August 23, 2011
posted by vicx at 10:23 AM on August 23, 2011
Hugo Boss?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:26 AM on August 23, 2011
posted by entropicamericana at 10:26 AM on August 23, 2011
Apple is not for nerds. Its for grannies and five-year olds.
I lol'd. That statement is patently untrue.
posted by JLovebomb at 10:27 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
I lol'd. That statement is patently untrue.
posted by JLovebomb at 10:27 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
Apple is definitely better at one thing- the evangelism of its user base.
Apple is also good at making reasonably affordable computers (yes, $299 is affordable, as much as $249 is) that are high quality, that have tens of thousands of real tablet apps, which work with Macs, which do not require constant tech support, and which make Apple ridiculous profits.
They are pretty good at a lot of stuff no one wants to give them credit for, still, after a decade of clawing back from nothing.
No wonder the rest can only compete by giving their gadgets away for $99, or free with the purchase of a TV. Apple users understand all the good things they are getting, while others are pushed onto other platforms with loss leaders and tax write-offs. That's no way to run a sustainable business, unless you're Microsoft, maybe, and have that kind of cash to spend.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:30 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
Apple is also good at making reasonably affordable computers (yes, $299 is affordable, as much as $249 is) that are high quality, that have tens of thousands of real tablet apps, which work with Macs, which do not require constant tech support, and which make Apple ridiculous profits.
They are pretty good at a lot of stuff no one wants to give them credit for, still, after a decade of clawing back from nothing.
No wonder the rest can only compete by giving their gadgets away for $99, or free with the purchase of a TV. Apple users understand all the good things they are getting, while others are pushed onto other platforms with loss leaders and tax write-offs. That's no way to run a sustainable business, unless you're Microsoft, maybe, and have that kind of cash to spend.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:30 AM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
You know, I think this might be the end of the computer revolution for a long time.
Absolutely laughable. Every year, someone somewhere thinks we've reached the pinnacle of innovation, and it's all stasis from now on. Not even close. For one:
bonehead has it:
"The OS, both iOS and Android are designed to discourage passing documents and data between "Apps". Apps individually manage "libraries" of documents/books/etc in stovepipes. It is possible to "move" a document, say a .doc, between applications (mail to PAges, for example), but it's a total pain, often involving special work arounds and third party tools. Android is marginally better, but suffers from the same library-centric managed data design model."
And making the whole device data-centric is not a trivial challenge - how are you going to get all the disparate developers with their apps integrated into this model? There are so many different file types and things we want to do with them. And yet, it's blindingly obvious that we want such integration. Even PCs are slightly better at this than tablets are at this point - just downloading a filetype to an iPad is a challenge... it goes where? Why is every app an island? I have a data stack, I want to manipulate it.
Early days yet, friends, very early. The iPad is a crude beast. It merely approaches solving a few problems with portability and ubiquitous computing. There's plenty of room to compete here, but I've given up on MSFT as the source of any kind of innovation. The "innovation" mantra at MSFT is the big Rovian lie - take the very opposite of truth and trumpet it brazenly. And we can't rely on Apple to be its own competition. Someone can enter here, though who, I don't know, certainly not HP. Most likely someone we've never even heard of - or that doesn't even exist as yet other than an idea in the head of some visionary youngster or two.
posted by VikingSword at 11:01 AM on August 23, 2011
Absolutely laughable. Every year, someone somewhere thinks we've reached the pinnacle of innovation, and it's all stasis from now on. Not even close. For one:
bonehead has it:
"The OS, both iOS and Android are designed to discourage passing documents and data between "Apps". Apps individually manage "libraries" of documents/books/etc in stovepipes. It is possible to "move" a document, say a .doc, between applications (mail to PAges, for example), but it's a total pain, often involving special work arounds and third party tools. Android is marginally better, but suffers from the same library-centric managed data design model."
And making the whole device data-centric is not a trivial challenge - how are you going to get all the disparate developers with their apps integrated into this model? There are so many different file types and things we want to do with them. And yet, it's blindingly obvious that we want such integration. Even PCs are slightly better at this than tablets are at this point - just downloading a filetype to an iPad is a challenge... it goes where? Why is every app an island? I have a data stack, I want to manipulate it.
Early days yet, friends, very early. The iPad is a crude beast. It merely approaches solving a few problems with portability and ubiquitous computing. There's plenty of room to compete here, but I've given up on MSFT as the source of any kind of innovation. The "innovation" mantra at MSFT is the big Rovian lie - take the very opposite of truth and trumpet it brazenly. And we can't rely on Apple to be its own competition. Someone can enter here, though who, I don't know, certainly not HP. Most likely someone we've never even heard of - or that doesn't even exist as yet other than an idea in the head of some visionary youngster or two.
posted by VikingSword at 11:01 AM on August 23, 2011
There's plenty of room to compete here, but I've given up on MSFT as the source of any kind of innovation.
To Microsoft's credit, they are at least trying to come up with something halfway original and non-derivative of iOS. That's probably the only way to compete, at this point, since making and distributing profitable hardware to go with the software has been such a tough problem.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:06 AM on August 23, 2011
To Microsoft's credit, they are at least trying to come up with something halfway original and non-derivative of iOS. That's probably the only way to compete, at this point, since making and distributing profitable hardware to go with the software has been such a tough problem.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:06 AM on August 23, 2011
Apple is also good at making reasonably affordable computers (yes, $299 is affordable, as much as $249 is)
Apple doesn't sell $299 computers (used, last generation, tablet hardware that may, or may not, be in stock at any given moment doesn't count).
This is the sort of simple, functional, affordable hardware that allows a technology to become ubiquitous.
posted by MikeMc at 11:23 AM on August 23, 2011
Apple doesn't sell $299 computers (used, last generation, tablet hardware that may, or may not, be in stock at any given moment doesn't count).
This is the sort of simple, functional, affordable hardware that allows a technology to become ubiquitous.
posted by MikeMc at 11:23 AM on August 23, 2011
This is the sort of simple, functional, affordable hardware that allows a technology to become ubiquitous.
It is tough to compare a cell phone to a tablet computer, but Apple will probably pass the number of 1100s sold in a year or two. More impressive is that Apple was not in the cell phone business until just a few years ago. Nokia had a fairly large headstart.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:42 AM on August 23, 2011
It is tough to compare a cell phone to a tablet computer, but Apple will probably pass the number of 1100s sold in a year or two. More impressive is that Apple was not in the cell phone business until just a few years ago. Nokia had a fairly large headstart.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:42 AM on August 23, 2011
"It is tough to compare a cell phone to a tablet computer"
I disagree. It's still early days in the tablet computing world. Remember when cell phones were relatively expensive and uncommon? That's kind of where we are now with tablets. The Nokia 1100, probably more than any other device, represents a piece of technology reaching "ubiquity". The 1100, in part, put cellular telephony within reach of people in even the poorest regions on Earth. Simple, durable, affordable. Can't beat that.
posted by MikeMc at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
I disagree. It's still early days in the tablet computing world. Remember when cell phones were relatively expensive and uncommon? That's kind of where we are now with tablets. The Nokia 1100, probably more than any other device, represents a piece of technology reaching "ubiquity". The 1100, in part, put cellular telephony within reach of people in even the poorest regions on Earth. Simple, durable, affordable. Can't beat that.
posted by MikeMc at 11:53 AM on August 23, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think MikeMc brings up an interesting idea -- there does seem to be room in the tablet space for a more 'rugged' piece of equipment; one that can not only withstand dust and humidity of outdoors (and a screen that works outdoors, of course) and not be dependent on an existing computer, but also one that is 'chuckable' into a kid's backpack. Whoever invents a cheap tablet that parents have no fear will be damaged or stolen (i.e. it's so cheap and ubiquitous it generally doesn't merit stealing) on the way to school and back will be on to a win.. I know intel was trying a similar concept in the laptop arena, but that was poorly executed.
There's definitely space left for innovation that goes beyond thinner and lighter.
posted by modernnomad at 12:09 PM on August 23, 2011
There's definitely space left for innovation that goes beyond thinner and lighter.
posted by modernnomad at 12:09 PM on August 23, 2011
There were a lot of people in the late 80s who thought that DOS 3.3/6.x with WordPerfect and 1-2-3 was the best thing ever and Could Not Possibly Be Improved. The PC was only a few years old at that point. Fancy graphics interfaces might be necessary for designers and crystalography weenies, but were not for Serious Business. Computers weighed 50+ lbs, had monochorme screens, and LANs were mostly useful for sharing the Laserjet.
Fortunately, a little company from Cupertino proved them wrong. Twenty years later and it's Apple setting the current dominant paradigm on a new class of devices. Just because it's selling moderately well right now doesn't mean they have it right.
posted by bonehead at 12:28 PM on August 23, 2011
Fortunately, a little company from Cupertino proved them wrong. Twenty years later and it's Apple setting the current dominant paradigm on a new class of devices. Just because it's selling moderately well right now doesn't mean they have it right.
posted by bonehead at 12:28 PM on August 23, 2011
Oh man, I've been waiting to post this link, it got killed by excess bandwidth use and just came back up. It's a "translation" of a Microsoft corporate communications release on this very topic. So here is the post by Brian S Hall, I never heard of him before Jean-Louis Gassee linked to him. Here's how it starts:
In the past year, and again in the past few weeks, I’ve seen a resurgence of the term “post” applied to the PC in a number of stories including The Wall Street Journal, PC World and the Washington Post. Heck, I even mentioned it in my 30th anniversary of the PC post, noting that “PC plus” was a better term.
Translation: Everyone but Microsoft, even staid old media, has come to accept that the PC is dead.
Nothing draws more links and eyeballs than saying something is a foo-“killer” or that foo is “dead.” That’s human nature and part of the way we like our stories, simple and straightforward, black and white.
Translation: Or beige, as in the case of that PC gathering dust in your house.
A new thing shows up, kills the old thing, end of story. But in the world of technology, it’s rarely (but not never) that clear cut. Most of the time, in fact, new objects enhance and complement the things we’ve already got. They don’t replace them.
Translation: Those that do the "enhancing" and "complementing" wind up earing all the money. Microsoft will still be around. Just not making any new money.
I'm reminded of a quote from Warren Buffett (BillG's pal, from whom he learned nothing).
"The investor of today does not profit from yesterday's growth."
Or perhaps there is a better Buffett quote:
"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked."
posted by charlie don't surf at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2011
In the past year, and again in the past few weeks, I’ve seen a resurgence of the term “post” applied to the PC in a number of stories including The Wall Street Journal, PC World and the Washington Post. Heck, I even mentioned it in my 30th anniversary of the PC post, noting that “PC plus” was a better term.
Translation: Everyone but Microsoft, even staid old media, has come to accept that the PC is dead.
Nothing draws more links and eyeballs than saying something is a foo-“killer” or that foo is “dead.” That’s human nature and part of the way we like our stories, simple and straightforward, black and white.
Translation: Or beige, as in the case of that PC gathering dust in your house.
A new thing shows up, kills the old thing, end of story. But in the world of technology, it’s rarely (but not never) that clear cut. Most of the time, in fact, new objects enhance and complement the things we’ve already got. They don’t replace them.
Translation: Those that do the "enhancing" and "complementing" wind up earing all the money. Microsoft will still be around. Just not making any new money.
I'm reminded of a quote from Warren Buffett (BillG's pal, from whom he learned nothing).
"The investor of today does not profit from yesterday's growth."
Or perhaps there is a better Buffett quote:
"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked."
posted by charlie don't surf at 12:30 PM on August 23, 2011
To Microsoft's credit, they are at least trying to come up with something halfway original and non-derivative of iOS. That's probably the only way to compete, at this point, since making and distributing profitable hardware to go with the software has been such a tough problem.
It's hard to follow your arguments, because on one hand you're advocating for competition and on the other you're deriding the only real competition as derivative. Derivative or not, Android is competing vs. Iphones, quite well in fact. You may dislike Android and there are legitimate critiques of it, but at this point, being derivative of iOS is not one of them. Maybe in the first iteration, but current versions of Android have innovated on iOS and compare quite favorably. Look at Windows vs Mac vs Linux: all derivative and yet all have eked out a niche. You don't see many OS's that are radically different in design, excluding command line interfaces because people have become accustomed to the way things are.
When some manufacturer finally comes up with a cheap, rugged piece of tablet hardware it will probably be running Android or Windows because it's a lot cheaper than developing a new OS. The collapse of webOS and the failure of RIM's Playbook have pretty much insured that minor players won't be competing until somebody big cracks Apple's dominance. As I said before, whoever does this will have to eat the cost for awhile in order to get prices down to where there's a significant difference in cost between theirs and an iPad. It's not impossible to beat Apple at this game. In fact, I think it's inevitable.
posted by dave78981 at 12:31 PM on August 23, 2011
It's hard to follow your arguments, because on one hand you're advocating for competition and on the other you're deriding the only real competition as derivative. Derivative or not, Android is competing vs. Iphones, quite well in fact. You may dislike Android and there are legitimate critiques of it, but at this point, being derivative of iOS is not one of them. Maybe in the first iteration, but current versions of Android have innovated on iOS and compare quite favorably. Look at Windows vs Mac vs Linux: all derivative and yet all have eked out a niche. You don't see many OS's that are radically different in design, excluding command line interfaces because people have become accustomed to the way things are.
When some manufacturer finally comes up with a cheap, rugged piece of tablet hardware it will probably be running Android or Windows because it's a lot cheaper than developing a new OS. The collapse of webOS and the failure of RIM's Playbook have pretty much insured that minor players won't be competing until somebody big cracks Apple's dominance. As I said before, whoever does this will have to eat the cost for awhile in order to get prices down to where there's a significant difference in cost between theirs and an iPad. It's not impossible to beat Apple at this game. In fact, I think it's inevitable.
posted by dave78981 at 12:31 PM on August 23, 2011
Twenty years later and it's Apple setting the current dominant paradigm on a new class of devices.
Oh, they've pretty much been doing that since the Apple II. Remember Woz's famous quote, he said the PC wars are over, Apple won, because now "every PC is a Macintosh."
posted by charlie don't surf at 12:34 PM on August 23, 2011
Oh, they've pretty much been doing that since the Apple II. Remember Woz's famous quote, he said the PC wars are over, Apple won, because now "every PC is a Macintosh."
posted by charlie don't surf at 12:34 PM on August 23, 2011
Apple is not for nerds. Its for grannies and five-year olds.
I lol'd. That statement is patently untrue.
I feel I need to qualify this statement.
Decades ago, I was among the first 6 people at my (architecture) school to be interested in computing. When I became an architect, I dreamt of designing an open-source 3-D model based project system. When I was in my first job, I was lucky to be in the first office here with CAD, where we still had to tweek the programs to get what we wanted, and anyway it was fun. When I became a teacher, I was among the first to embrace digitally aided design in architecture school - a decade before it became generally accepted.
And then when I became a project manager, first at the office, and then in my own business, I realized it would be decades before my counterparts on site were ready for that 3-D project. (They still aren't). So I turned to something else. I started working with people, on all levels of the design process.
And while doing that, I shifted to Apple Computers. Admittedly, there were some years where I should have gone back to the mainstream within building design, but as my line of work became more specialized, I also became more dependent on graphic programs (and for a while I copped out completely and wrote a dissertation). And as I moved more and more towards "working with people", I became more and more of a "mac-user". Because I worked with painters and welders and grannies and five year olds and homeless and nurses and crazy people and uneducated young people and politicians and teachers. All of them people who don't touch computers unless they are simple and fun. All of them people who couldn't care less about what's inside this tool.
At some point, I tried to shift to linux for ideological reasons. But in the mean time, my love and energy had turned away from the tool and onto other aspects of communication.I couldn't find that one day to learn my way through it all. Ridicule me if you like, but don't bring money into that equation: whatever system I use, I will pay a lot, because I work with graphics and animation.
So when I wrote Apple is for grannies, for me that is a good thing. It means my tools have to be simple and robust because I share them with all sorts of people. But it is not in any way an absolutist thing. If some other company delivers the ultimate user-friendly device, I'll be there, with my granny and all the people I interact with professionally. And I am still happy to work with people who prefer other systems. It's not a religion. It's a tool.
The iPad is a nice tool for some jobs, and a wonderful toy. I have difficulty seeing it encumbered with Windows, which is a tool I have never, ever understood the purpose of. But heck, let them prove it
posted by mumimor at 12:38 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
I lol'd. That statement is patently untrue.
I feel I need to qualify this statement.
Decades ago, I was among the first 6 people at my (architecture) school to be interested in computing. When I became an architect, I dreamt of designing an open-source 3-D model based project system. When I was in my first job, I was lucky to be in the first office here with CAD, where we still had to tweek the programs to get what we wanted, and anyway it was fun. When I became a teacher, I was among the first to embrace digitally aided design in architecture school - a decade before it became generally accepted.
And then when I became a project manager, first at the office, and then in my own business, I realized it would be decades before my counterparts on site were ready for that 3-D project. (They still aren't). So I turned to something else. I started working with people, on all levels of the design process.
And while doing that, I shifted to Apple Computers. Admittedly, there were some years where I should have gone back to the mainstream within building design, but as my line of work became more specialized, I also became more dependent on graphic programs (and for a while I copped out completely and wrote a dissertation). And as I moved more and more towards "working with people", I became more and more of a "mac-user". Because I worked with painters and welders and grannies and five year olds and homeless and nurses and crazy people and uneducated young people and politicians and teachers. All of them people who don't touch computers unless they are simple and fun. All of them people who couldn't care less about what's inside this tool.
At some point, I tried to shift to linux for ideological reasons. But in the mean time, my love and energy had turned away from the tool and onto other aspects of communication.I couldn't find that one day to learn my way through it all. Ridicule me if you like, but don't bring money into that equation: whatever system I use, I will pay a lot, because I work with graphics and animation.
So when I wrote Apple is for grannies, for me that is a good thing. It means my tools have to be simple and robust because I share them with all sorts of people. But it is not in any way an absolutist thing. If some other company delivers the ultimate user-friendly device, I'll be there, with my granny and all the people I interact with professionally. And I am still happy to work with people who prefer other systems. It's not a religion. It's a tool.
The iPad is a nice tool for some jobs, and a wonderful toy. I have difficulty seeing it encumbered with Windows, which is a tool I have never, ever understood the purpose of. But heck, let them prove it
posted by mumimor at 12:38 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
The Nokia 1100, probably more than any other device, represents a piece of technology reaching "ubiquity"
It's an interesting definition of ubiquity. On the numbers, at least, iOS is very close to comparable ubiquity, and Apple has only been in this business for a few years. Drawing a regression line over the next year or two, iPhones and iPads will be more ubiquitous than the 1100, by numbers, at least.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:50 PM on August 23, 2011
It's an interesting definition of ubiquity. On the numbers, at least, iOS is very close to comparable ubiquity, and Apple has only been in this business for a few years. Drawing a regression line over the next year or two, iPhones and iPads will be more ubiquitous than the 1100, by numbers, at least.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:50 PM on August 23, 2011
"It's an interesting definition of ubiquity."
The 1100 is like the Model-T. Sure, there were other cars before the Tin Lizzy and there have been many since but that was the one, more than any other, that made seeing a car in your neck of the woods a common thing. Not being surprised to see to see a particular piece of technology in common use virtually anywhere, that's my definition I guess.
posted by MikeMc at 1:02 PM on August 23, 2011
The 1100 is like the Model-T. Sure, there were other cars before the Tin Lizzy and there have been many since but that was the one, more than any other, that made seeing a car in your neck of the woods a common thing. Not being surprised to see to see a particular piece of technology in common use virtually anywhere, that's my definition I guess.
posted by MikeMc at 1:02 PM on August 23, 2011
To be fair, the 1100 is also treated as a distinct model, and its predecessors and successors in the 'budget yet hardy' phone at the low end of Nokia's lineup are not counted (i.e., the 1100 is not being made any more). It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare its numbers to a series of devices (iphone, iphone 3, iphone 3gs, iphone 4, ipad1, ipad2) when gauging 'ubiquity'.
But in any event, I think it's a straw argument to count unit shipments as relevant here -- both the iphone and 1100 were successfully able to crack new markets and change perceptions of what smartphones were for and who could have access to wireless telecommunications, respectively... both game-changers in their own right but for different reasons.
The iPad too is unquestionably a game changer... the crucial question is whether its competitors attempt to "out iPad the iPad" (which I think is probably the wrong strategic move), or whether they look for areas that are unserved by the iPad... ironically, this after all is the crux of Apple's success -- they don't try and "out Dell Dell", but rather attempt to create a narrow niche and exploit it, and do extremely profitably. That's the lesson for the tablet industry as far as I'm concerned -- find your niche and exploit it.
posted by modernnomad at 1:14 PM on August 23, 2011
But in any event, I think it's a straw argument to count unit shipments as relevant here -- both the iphone and 1100 were successfully able to crack new markets and change perceptions of what smartphones were for and who could have access to wireless telecommunications, respectively... both game-changers in their own right but for different reasons.
The iPad too is unquestionably a game changer... the crucial question is whether its competitors attempt to "out iPad the iPad" (which I think is probably the wrong strategic move), or whether they look for areas that are unserved by the iPad... ironically, this after all is the crux of Apple's success -- they don't try and "out Dell Dell", but rather attempt to create a narrow niche and exploit it, and do extremely profitably. That's the lesson for the tablet industry as far as I'm concerned -- find your niche and exploit it.
posted by modernnomad at 1:14 PM on August 23, 2011
To be fair, the 1100 is also treated as a distinct model, and its predecessors and successors in the 'budget yet hardy' phone at the low end of Nokia's lineup are not counted (i.e., the 1100 is not being made any more). It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare its numbers to a series of devices (iphone, iphone 3, iphone 3gs, iphone 4, ipad1, ipad2) when gauging 'ubiquity'.
I was drawing the regression line from publicly-listed iPhone 4 numbers, mostly, but I think it makes sense to compare the 1100 as a singular representation of a particular way of doing things that has since passed, and iOS as a singular representation of a new, different and original way of doing things that is on its own exponential rise.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:32 PM on August 23, 2011
I was drawing the regression line from publicly-listed iPhone 4 numbers, mostly, but I think it makes sense to compare the 1100 as a singular representation of a particular way of doing things that has since passed, and iOS as a singular representation of a new, different and original way of doing things that is on its own exponential rise.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:32 PM on August 23, 2011
Long story short: I composed a detailed and thoughtful critique of iOS' usability shortcomings, likening Apple's probable responsiveness to them to Apple's responsiveness to similar irritants in System 6, and identifying them as a real vector of opportunity for Microsoft, as unlikely as it is that they will successfully exploit the opportunity, given that they killed off their innovative touch UI product at launch last year.
then iOs ate the post due to Safari cacheless page reloads. Unca Steve, iOS blows, but so far so does everything else.
posted by mwhybark at 3:51 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
then iOs ate the post due to Safari cacheless page reloads. Unca Steve, iOS blows, but so far so does everything else.
posted by mwhybark at 3:51 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
"iOS devices are overpriced, locked-down toys for fanboys. If you want to do real work, buy an Android device."Well, the 'locked-down' thing never applied to MacOS, so that's not an old argument. And right now, no one does any work on tablets, either iOS or Android. And the tablets all cost about the same as well.
No wonder the rest can only compete by giving their gadgets away for $99, or free with the purchase of a TV. Apple users understand all the good things they are getting, while others are pushed onto other platforms with loss leaders and tax write-offs.Yeah, everyone knows the most popular stuff is the best stuff. Just like Wal-mart, McDonnald's and
Also the Mac zealots linking and quoting other Mac Zealots talking about how the PC is dead and every other company besides apple is DOOOMED is about the most insane thing ever. The fact that apple is selling a lot of iPads doesn't mean that people have stopped buying PCs. I doubt apple's numbers come anywhere near the number of PCs sold. They make a much greater profit on their units, and that's what wall street cares about. But in terms of the number of people using their devices, it's not even close.
For one thing you still cant even use tablets to do any 'work' Until tablets become useful for 'working' on, or no one ever needs to work again, the tablets can't possibly take the place of 'regular' computers. They may take some of the entertainment roles away from computers for some people, but... so what exactly?
The iPad is more like a traditional game system (except for grownups) then a traditional PC.
posted by delmoi at 5:52 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
I composed a detailed and thoughtful critique of iOS' usability shortcomings..then iOs ate the post due to Safari cacheless page reloads.
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this comment field is too narrow to contain.
posted by charlie don't surf at 6:10 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this comment field is too narrow to contain.
posted by charlie don't surf at 6:10 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
For one thing you still cant even use tablets to do any 'work'
Right. You should tell this to NetSuite users.
posted by charlie don't surf at 6:20 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
Right. You should tell this to NetSuite users.
posted by charlie don't surf at 6:20 PM on August 23, 2011 [1 favorite]
As a person who works in IT, I cannot overstate the percieved value of being able to run Microsoft Office. People will buy windows 8 tablets for this alone. (Unless you can run Microsoft Offfice on an iPad, then disregard that)
posted by tehloki at 7:31 PM on August 23, 2011
posted by tehloki at 7:31 PM on August 23, 2011
I want them to make a version of Office for tablets and smartphones that tweets everything you do.
"I just chose the Helvetica font for my UNTITLED.doc! What font will you use with @OfficeForiPhone?"
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 11:21 PM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
"I just chose the Helvetica font for my UNTITLED.doc! What font will you use with @OfficeForiPhone?"
posted by ArmyOfKittens at 11:21 PM on August 23, 2011 [3 favorites]
Don't talk to people and for the love of god don't observe the incredible world around you and sit and ponder it in quiet reflection.
I've talked to people, and lemme tell ya ... the whole idea is highly overrated.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:00 AM on August 24, 2011
I've talked to people, and lemme tell ya ... the whole idea is highly overrated.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:00 AM on August 24, 2011
As a person who works in IT, I cannot overstate the percieved value of being able to run Microsoft Office. People will buy windows 8 tablets for this alone.
Definitely. Microsoft doesn't even have to match or come close to beating Apple specs for this. Just say it runs Office (doesn't even need to run it well) and BOOM, IT managers are lining up to. It doesn't matter if the first version sucks. Newer versions will get better.
TFor one thing you still cant even use tablets to do any 'work' Until tablets become useful for 'working' on, or no one ever needs to work again, the tablets can't possibly take the place of 'regular' computers.
You are mistaken.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on August 24, 2011
Definitely. Microsoft doesn't even have to match or come close to beating Apple specs for this. Just say it runs Office (doesn't even need to run it well) and BOOM, IT managers are lining up to. It doesn't matter if the first version sucks. Newer versions will get better.
TFor one thing you still cant even use tablets to do any 'work' Until tablets become useful for 'working' on, or no one ever needs to work again, the tablets can't possibly take the place of 'regular' computers.
You are mistaken.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on August 24, 2011
Well, the 'locked-down' thing never applied to MacOS, so that's not an old argument. -delmoi
No, but it did apply to the Mac hardware. Special screws and lack of expansion slots made a certain subset of computer users very upset when the Mac was introduced. I will grant that the iOS devices are more locked down than the Macs were.
You are mistaken. -Brandon Blatcher
delmoi, like many others in a certain subset of programmers, has a very narrow definition of "work."
posted by entropicamericana at 8:12 AM on August 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, but it did apply to the Mac hardware. Special screws and lack of expansion slots made a certain subset of computer users very upset when the Mac was introduced. I will grant that the iOS devices are more locked down than the Macs were.
You are mistaken. -Brandon Blatcher
delmoi, like many others in a certain subset of programmers, has a very narrow definition of "work."
posted by entropicamericana at 8:12 AM on August 24, 2011 [1 favorite]
Samsung reportedly recruits ex-HP VP for PC business; considers buying webOS
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:17 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:17 PM on August 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Windows Explorer to use ribbon interface says Building Windows 8 Blog.
posted by Green With You at 12:49 PM on August 29, 2011
posted by Green With You at 12:49 PM on August 29, 2011
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It's like they read my mind.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:59 PM on August 22, 2011 [2 favorites]