To tell the truth? I have no idea frankly.
October 13, 2001 3:46 PM Subscribe
To tell the truth? I have no idea frankly. This bit from R. U. Sirius on disinfo pretty much sums it up for me. "So here am I; neutral, stuck-in-neutral, neutered . . . not even stuck in the middle with Bill and Al, but trapped in right field with Dubya and Herr Ashcroft busy making plans for his own version of the Spanish Inquisition, unable to join the antiwar protests with a clear conscience because they could be wrong, not able to fly the flag because I don't believe in nationalism, not able to endorse the "war" because it could be a dumb tactic leading to pointless deaths, unwilling to sacrifice my irony and foolish irreverence to the martial mood of the country or to a bizarre and pious import from the 13th Century."
How many of you have distinct emotions about the state of the world, yet have no idea where to focus them?
There is 'gut instinct' involved on both ends of the spectrum on this issue. One group's reaction was to demand revenge, the other's was to demand peace. Far, far fewer were the people who stepped back to take a thoughtful examination of their own beliefs. The fact that he can't reach an easy conclusion only shows how complicated an honest portrayal of this situation is. Very good essay.
posted by Hildago at 4:06 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by Hildago at 4:06 PM on October 13, 2001
As usual, Mr. Sirius speaks for us both.
posted by dong_resin at 4:53 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by dong_resin at 4:53 PM on October 13, 2001
Postroad:
That's interesting. A friend of mine in NYC who lost friends in the tragedy says something that is almost - but not quite - the opposite: that the greatest cries for outrageous revenge seem to her to come from those furthest away from the disaster. That many people who called for "nuking Afghanistan" were the same people that still felt themselves free from consequences.
posted by ntk at 5:36 PM on October 13, 2001
That's interesting. A friend of mine in NYC who lost friends in the tragedy says something that is almost - but not quite - the opposite: that the greatest cries for outrageous revenge seem to her to come from those furthest away from the disaster. That many people who called for "nuking Afghanistan" were the same people that still felt themselves free from consequences.
posted by ntk at 5:36 PM on October 13, 2001
Great article. He nailed exactly what I've been wrestling with. This whole thing sucks so much.
posted by Optamystic at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by Optamystic at 6:08 PM on October 13, 2001
That's exactly what I was trying to say above, Optamystic.
Everything is turned upside down. I can't tell you how many people in my life are suddenly having trouble with their relationships, for example. Everyone is just so frustrated. Nothing makes sense like it did just a few weeks ago.
From my experience, even many of those who are taking one stance or another (war or peace, anger or sorrow) are doing so more out of fear and frustration than any real rational thought.
posted by jpoulos at 6:14 PM on October 13, 2001
Everything is turned upside down. I can't tell you how many people in my life are suddenly having trouble with their relationships, for example. Everyone is just so frustrated. Nothing makes sense like it did just a few weeks ago.
From my experience, even many of those who are taking one stance or another (war or peace, anger or sorrow) are doing so more out of fear and frustration than any real rational thought.
posted by jpoulos at 6:14 PM on October 13, 2001
I can't tell you how many people in my life are suddenly having trouble with their relationships, for example.
No shit? My girlfriend of over three years just told me last night, "Half of her wants to stay with me. The other half wants to leave." (i.e. No romance whatsoever in the past month). Personally, I don't have it in me right now.
Interestingly, we both blamed our changing feelings on "the war" to a certain degree.
I'm remaining calm. But there's this feeling of impending doom all around. Gray as fuck here in Seattle today. The Mariners get shellacked 18-1 or something (plunging this city into an even more profound funk). People contracting anthrax. The uncertainty of tomorrow could come just as easily and unannounced as that of 9/11. And now this. With her. . .
I don't know what to focus on anymore.
posted by crasspastor at 6:28 PM on October 13, 2001
No shit? My girlfriend of over three years just told me last night, "Half of her wants to stay with me. The other half wants to leave." (i.e. No romance whatsoever in the past month). Personally, I don't have it in me right now.
Interestingly, we both blamed our changing feelings on "the war" to a certain degree.
I'm remaining calm. But there's this feeling of impending doom all around. Gray as fuck here in Seattle today. The Mariners get shellacked 18-1 or something (plunging this city into an even more profound funk). People contracting anthrax. The uncertainty of tomorrow could come just as easily and unannounced as that of 9/11. And now this. With her. . .
I don't know what to focus on anymore.
posted by crasspastor at 6:28 PM on October 13, 2001
Confused is as good a word as any to describe what I feel right now. I think I read to much, listen to too many opinions... I'm so dizzzzy...
posted by bjgeiger at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by bjgeiger at 6:34 PM on October 13, 2001
I was wondering where R.U. was. I had actually gone searching for something from his keyboard in the few days following WTC. Somehow I knew I'd find him saying exactly what I was feeling, better than I possibly could.
posted by tpoh.org at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by tpoh.org at 7:00 PM on October 13, 2001
There is no neutrality. To declare oneself neutral is to be on the side of bin Laden.
Herr Ashcroft? The Spanish Inquisition? RU Sirius is calling the attorney general a Nazi. He is saying that the United States, which is Israel's greatest defender (and a defender of Muslims in our recent military actions in Somalia, Bosnia and Kosovo), is as morally bankrupt as the people who invented the Spanish maiden to force people to convert.
RU Sirius says he doesn't "believe in nationalism," whatever that means. Bin Laden doesn't "believe in nationalism," either -- he believes there should be no nations, just an entire world governed by his interpretation of Sharia.
RU Sirius doesn't endorse war because it could lead to pointless deaths, conveniently ignoring that bin Laden's soldiers started this war with thousands of pointless deaths. Finally, we find a point on which RU Sirius and bin Laden disagree.
I hope people who agree with his essay reconsider. With his "Herr Ashcroft" crack, RU Sirius equates our government with that of Nazi Germany. That right there dissolves his credibility.
posted by Holden at 7:13 PM on October 13, 2001
Herr Ashcroft? The Spanish Inquisition? RU Sirius is calling the attorney general a Nazi. He is saying that the United States, which is Israel's greatest defender (and a defender of Muslims in our recent military actions in Somalia, Bosnia and Kosovo), is as morally bankrupt as the people who invented the Spanish maiden to force people to convert.
RU Sirius says he doesn't "believe in nationalism," whatever that means. Bin Laden doesn't "believe in nationalism," either -- he believes there should be no nations, just an entire world governed by his interpretation of Sharia.
RU Sirius doesn't endorse war because it could lead to pointless deaths, conveniently ignoring that bin Laden's soldiers started this war with thousands of pointless deaths. Finally, we find a point on which RU Sirius and bin Laden disagree.
I hope people who agree with his essay reconsider. With his "Herr Ashcroft" crack, RU Sirius equates our government with that of Nazi Germany. That right there dissolves his credibility.
posted by Holden at 7:13 PM on October 13, 2001
Wave your flag elsewhere, Holden. There are a million threads custom made for it. People are grieving here.
posted by Optamystic at 7:19 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by Optamystic at 7:19 PM on October 13, 2001
Don't tell me to go elsewhere, Optamystic. I'm grieving, too.
posted by Holden at 7:21 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by Holden at 7:21 PM on October 13, 2001
You may very well be grieving, but in your post, you're mostly ranting.
posted by Optamystic at 7:23 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by Optamystic at 7:23 PM on October 13, 2001
*sigh*
Let's try not to let our knees get too jerky, ok?
posted by Hackworth at 7:24 PM on October 13, 2001
Let's try not to let our knees get too jerky, ok?
posted by Hackworth at 7:24 PM on October 13, 2001
i'm sleeping a lot more, i'm crying at stupid commercials where animals are friends, i'm so mad because i can't get drunk and sit on the observation deck at the airport (one of my favorite things to do). i'm scared and i want to tell someone how i really feel about him. i KNOW that the only thing that really matters is that we all love each other. i sound like a hippie-dippy shit; this isn't like me. but it's the only thing i know really to be true.
crasspastor: good luck. i'm thinking of you.
posted by sugarfish at 7:25 PM on October 13, 2001
crasspastor: good luck. i'm thinking of you.
posted by sugarfish at 7:25 PM on October 13, 2001
Sorry, Holden. I was outta line.
posted by Optamystic at 7:27 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by Optamystic at 7:27 PM on October 13, 2001
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
- WB Yeats
posted by jdunn_entropy at 7:31 PM on October 13, 2001
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
posted by boaz at 7:32 PM on October 13, 2001
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
posted by boaz at 7:32 PM on October 13, 2001
Incidentally, I wasn't trying to imply that an apocalypse is at hand... just that those lines kinda typified the emotional and rational climate that I'm observing at the moment.
posted by jdunn_entropy at 7:32 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by jdunn_entropy at 7:32 PM on October 13, 2001
You stopped short of the last two lines, boaz, which, I think, describe what some of us are really scared of:
posted by jpoulos at 7:48 PM on October 13, 2001
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,I think we all realize that the Rough Beast has been born. The genie is out of the bottle. This war won't have an "end". While we may someday return to feeling relatively safe, the threat will never really go away. And that's scary.
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
posted by jpoulos at 7:48 PM on October 13, 2001
Cemetery Gates
So we go inside and we gravely read the stones
all those people all those lives
where are they now?
with loves, and hates
and passions just like mine
they were born
and then they lived and then they died
which seems so unfair
and I want to cry
jdunn_entropy's reminded me of one of my favorite songs.
Shit. Now he's breaking out The Smiths!
posted by crasspastor at 7:50 PM on October 13, 2001
So we go inside and we gravely read the stones
all those people all those lives
where are they now?
with loves, and hates
and passions just like mine
they were born
and then they lived and then they died
which seems so unfair
and I want to cry
jdunn_entropy's reminded me of one of my favorite songs.
Shit. Now he's breaking out The Smiths!
posted by crasspastor at 7:50 PM on October 13, 2001
just what we need, more disjointed gen Xers with no agenda.
the day my generation takes over this country is what scares me more than anthrax, osama bin laden and the next n*sync record. we're all a bunch of spoiled whiners that sit around and bitch about problems and present no clear solutions. all those that purport to be so fucking intelligent have so little motivation, such deep seated cynicism ... content to absorb information to the point of saturation and try and convince everyone how much smarter we are than those in power. we're more passionate in a pissing match about why anything 'indie' is better than the evil corporations than anything else.
'i'm worst at what i do best ... '
posted by aenemated at 7:51 PM on October 13, 2001
the day my generation takes over this country is what scares me more than anthrax, osama bin laden and the next n*sync record. we're all a bunch of spoiled whiners that sit around and bitch about problems and present no clear solutions. all those that purport to be so fucking intelligent have so little motivation, such deep seated cynicism ... content to absorb information to the point of saturation and try and convince everyone how much smarter we are than those in power. we're more passionate in a pissing match about why anything 'indie' is better than the evil corporations than anything else.
'i'm worst at what i do best ... '
posted by aenemated at 7:51 PM on October 13, 2001
anathema
posted by crasspastor at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by crasspastor at 7:55 PM on October 13, 2001
we're all a bunch of spoiled whiners
oooh, and I'd label what you're doing metawhining. Look, our parents were f*cking hippies ferchrissakes, and they're doing just fine at this ruling the world shit.
and try and convince everyone how much smarter we are than those in power
And you're trying to convince everyone how much smarter, more cynical, less motivated you are....than yourself. You can now officially claim to be stupider than our leaders; your plaque is in the mail.
present no clear solutions.
Sorry, I must have missed the guy who presented the clear solution: was he on Fox or CNN? Maybe it was Ann Coulter. Maybe there are no clear solutions, and the world's still going to be a scary place when we're older and there's a new name for the 20-somethings we'll blame our problems on.
posted by boaz at 8:48 PM on October 13, 2001
oooh, and I'd label what you're doing metawhining. Look, our parents were f*cking hippies ferchrissakes, and they're doing just fine at this ruling the world shit.
and try and convince everyone how much smarter we are than those in power
And you're trying to convince everyone how much smarter, more cynical, less motivated you are....than yourself. You can now officially claim to be stupider than our leaders; your plaque is in the mail.
present no clear solutions.
Sorry, I must have missed the guy who presented the clear solution: was he on Fox or CNN? Maybe it was Ann Coulter. Maybe there are no clear solutions, and the world's still going to be a scary place when we're older and there's a new name for the 20-somethings we'll blame our problems on.
posted by boaz at 8:48 PM on October 13, 2001
Speaking as a spoiled whiner, I'm with RU Sirius. Not really sure what aenemated was trying to say, though.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:14 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:14 PM on October 13, 2001
Count another one who found this essay describing nicely a lot of what I've had trouble articulating in the past few weeks. I've qutie given up trying to find a right answer to this. How can I expect myself to find a rational way to explain something so rooted in the irrational?
posted by holycola at 9:18 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by holycola at 9:18 PM on October 13, 2001
Great article. My sentiments exactly. As a mostly left person I oppose war and guns and massive military buildup.
But on any given day I go from crying for the people lost in New York to crying for the people being lost and persecuted in Afghanistan.
One minute I say "wait, we can't just go bombing a country and killing innocents!" to "F*ck them and the horse they rode in on, nuke'em all!" I hate how I feel now!!
I childishly wish we could go back to arguing about Gary Condit.
posted by bas67 at 9:36 PM on October 13, 2001
But on any given day I go from crying for the people lost in New York to crying for the people being lost and persecuted in Afghanistan.
One minute I say "wait, we can't just go bombing a country and killing innocents!" to "F*ck them and the horse they rode in on, nuke'em all!" I hate how I feel now!!
I childishly wish we could go back to arguing about Gary Condit.
posted by bas67 at 9:36 PM on October 13, 2001
And I thought I was the only one who couldn't bring myself to wear one of those flag pins or red white & blue ribbons.
Then I see pictures of the WTC rubble and its so sad. Back and forth I go, looking at all the angles. My wishful thinking is, peace, love, & human rights. Bad stuff go away.
But way deep inside I am afraid.
2 synonyms for neutral are dispassionate & disinterested.
I don't think I'm neutral. Anxious is probably a better word.
posted by redhead at 9:46 PM on October 13, 2001
Then I see pictures of the WTC rubble and its so sad. Back and forth I go, looking at all the angles. My wishful thinking is, peace, love, & human rights. Bad stuff go away.
But way deep inside I am afraid.
2 synonyms for neutral are dispassionate & disinterested.
I don't think I'm neutral. Anxious is probably a better word.
posted by redhead at 9:46 PM on October 13, 2001
A suggestion: Turn off the TV and radio. Go outside. If you live in Manhattan, look UPtown, not down. The world is still there. We're still here. Things are still at least 95% the way they're supposed to be. We should react, but we need not freak out. It's not THAT bad.
posted by aaron at 9:48 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by aaron at 9:48 PM on October 13, 2001
All these people waving flags seem like they've given our leaders carte blanche to do whatever they want... but at the same time, if the Taliban -- certainly not the nicest government on the planet -- can't find it in their hearts to "cough Bin Laden up," then screw 'em.
Some of this, I think, is regional. Here in Philadelphia, there are cops all over the city manning stations. Cops at the train stations. Cops at the street corners. Cops surrounding city hall. It's pretty frightening.
My understanding is that isn't true of the west coast...
posted by ph00dz at 9:54 PM on October 13, 2001
Some of this, I think, is regional. Here in Philadelphia, there are cops all over the city manning stations. Cops at the train stations. Cops at the street corners. Cops surrounding city hall. It's pretty frightening.
My understanding is that isn't true of the west coast...
posted by ph00dz at 9:54 PM on October 13, 2001
Indeed, like many dissident Americans who believe(d) that the biggest current political problems were global warming, excess global corporate power, and the police stateist machinations of the war on drugs, I'm dealing with total paradigm shock.
thanks crasspastor. my all time (9/13/01) favorite MeFi thread.
posted by danOstuporStar at 9:54 PM on October 13, 2001
thanks crasspastor. my all time (9/13/01) favorite MeFi thread.
posted by danOstuporStar at 9:54 PM on October 13, 2001
Although there are more than enough flag-draped avengers to be found in the bars and on the streets, does this introspective, measured and studied approach to our actions seen here represent a new level of our 'moral' development? America is the country of Manifest Destiny, of the Monroe Doctrine, and The New World Order. Now, even under fire, we are rationally - and not neccesarily religously - searching ourselves for the limitations of mercy and the appropriateness of force.
I don't know folks; but if there's a reason to really admire what America is, maybe this is it.
posted by Perigee at 11:02 PM on October 13, 2001
I don't know folks; but if there's a reason to really admire what America is, maybe this is it.
posted by Perigee at 11:02 PM on October 13, 2001
My understanding is that isn't true of the west coast...
Incorrect. I'm in LA, and we have had cops in the air constantly. I've personally had LAPD spotlights shining in the immediate vicinity of my apartment building a few times. I've also had a steady stream of jets pass by my building since the 11th (including some on the 11th that scared the crap out of me - as no planes were supposed to be in the air).
They're just down the street, but I also understand Warner Bros. and Disney have barricaded their gates some.
So, yeah - we're scared crapless as well.
posted by owillis at 11:08 PM on October 13, 2001
Incorrect. I'm in LA, and we have had cops in the air constantly. I've personally had LAPD spotlights shining in the immediate vicinity of my apartment building a few times. I've also had a steady stream of jets pass by my building since the 11th (including some on the 11th that scared the crap out of me - as no planes were supposed to be in the air).
They're just down the street, but I also understand Warner Bros. and Disney have barricaded their gates some.
So, yeah - we're scared crapless as well.
posted by owillis at 11:08 PM on October 13, 2001
Incorrect. I'm in LA, and we have had cops in the air constantly.
hahahaha! Right? ; )
Nothing different or odd here. Though, about a week after 9/11 I noticed a big graffitti laden *Ryder Truck* parked next to one of the big columns of the ship canal bridge(famous for heckled jumpers). Startled at first. I shrugged. These things are taken care of right? Y'know?
right?
posted by crasspastor at 11:18 PM on October 13, 2001
hahahaha! Right? ; )
Nothing different or odd here. Though, about a week after 9/11 I noticed a big graffitti laden *Ryder Truck* parked next to one of the big columns of the ship canal bridge(famous for heckled jumpers). Startled at first. I shrugged. These things are taken care of right? Y'know?
right?
posted by crasspastor at 11:18 PM on October 13, 2001
Ha! I should have said more cops in the air than usual. I usually see them just around the freeway, but they're in other places now.
posted by owillis at 11:40 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by owillis at 11:40 PM on October 13, 2001
Ohhhh crasspastor - you named the fear I dared not name. I'm in Seattle too, and the thought has ocurred to me on more than one occasion - if terrorists wanted to cripple Seattle, just three (or four) small boats loaded with explosives could easily do it. Wipe out the I-5 bridge, the 520 and the Ship Canal bridge (and maybe the Ballard Locks to boot). We'd be more or less shut down.
It's like half of me wants to shout "Hey, has everybody thought about all the fucked up ways people could attack us?" and the other half says "Shh, don't give anyone any ideas." (Of course, there's the third half which tells me I should really try to mellow out).
posted by kokogiak at 12:56 AM on October 14, 2001
It's like half of me wants to shout "Hey, has everybody thought about all the fucked up ways people could attack us?" and the other half says "Shh, don't give anyone any ideas." (Of course, there's the third half which tells me I should really try to mellow out).
posted by kokogiak at 12:56 AM on October 14, 2001
kokogiak, if it gives you any comfort, the San Fran Chronicle ran a big article Friday on the Coast Guard officers riding shotgun on all the huge transport ships into and out of SF bay. Checking crew backgrounds, checking the ships for stowaways, etc. I can see the Richmond-San Rafael bridge out my front window and the SF Police cruisers and Coast Guard boats are aggressively approaching any boat that goes near the bridge. So...yeah, they've thought of it. And I image these counter-terrorist efforts at the local level are coordinated nationally, so if they're doing it down here, it's a good bet they're doing it up there.
posted by JParker at 1:18 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by JParker at 1:18 AM on October 14, 2001
my girlfriend in Chile tells me that all her friends are kind of in a daze too. depressed. a lot of couples breaking up. this hit far beyond US borders.
the article is pretty good. a lot of the discussion on MeFi and elsewhere tends towards a false-dilemma: "US right or wrong" vs. Appeasement. I think there's a third path, facing the problem of terrorism, the conviction that 9-11 can't happen again, but avoiding a new "War On X", especially on something as slippery as terrorism, and especially avoiding the Star Wars-type rhetoric currently in favor by the Bush administration.
it's confusing as hell, though, to be critical of the "war", and then hear about all the anthrax scares, and read about the possibility of nukes and think "these fuckers just might be crazy enough to...."
I'm just glad I'm not the one making the decisions.
though Sartre wouldn't agree, I guess.
posted by signal at 1:40 AM on October 14, 2001
the article is pretty good. a lot of the discussion on MeFi and elsewhere tends towards a false-dilemma: "US right or wrong" vs. Appeasement. I think there's a third path, facing the problem of terrorism, the conviction that 9-11 can't happen again, but avoiding a new "War On X", especially on something as slippery as terrorism, and especially avoiding the Star Wars-type rhetoric currently in favor by the Bush administration.
it's confusing as hell, though, to be critical of the "war", and then hear about all the anthrax scares, and read about the possibility of nukes and think "these fuckers just might be crazy enough to...."
I'm just glad I'm not the one making the decisions.
though Sartre wouldn't agree, I guess.
posted by signal at 1:40 AM on October 14, 2001
"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 2:12 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 2:12 AM on October 14, 2001
I'm astonished that anyone could vacillate on the subject of self-preservation. Yet they do, with predictable results (e.g. Oxford Union debate of 1933 [1, 2]).
The literary references are fun, though. Lately I've been thinking a lot about "The Bhagavad Gita" and "Hamlet." Hamlet had his mission -- Kill Claudius. But he screwed it up. He thought too much. How many people died because Hamlet was so careful to explore every possible nuance, and to analyze his every action, inaction, and perception -- thus wasting precious time? Makes great literature but poor statecraft -- the final moments consist of the kingdom falling to invaders. Next time you watch "Hamlet," as you enjoy the beauty and power of his soliloquies and the psychological insight Shakespeare brought to the characters, ask yourself: What is Fortinbras (the invader) doing at this moment?
Hmph. Never send a man of ideas to do a man of action's job.
This is not to say that we should act mindlessly. But RU's dilemma ("[better] to go down in a meditation posture, or clutching a Beckett play, than bellowing 'USA! USA! USA!' like some WWF ape") is false: some of the smartest, most serious, most quiet people I know are working very hard at this moment so that we don't go down at all. RU's contribution to this effort is, alas, little help.
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 2:13 AM on October 14, 2001
The literary references are fun, though. Lately I've been thinking a lot about "The Bhagavad Gita" and "Hamlet." Hamlet had his mission -- Kill Claudius. But he screwed it up. He thought too much. How many people died because Hamlet was so careful to explore every possible nuance, and to analyze his every action, inaction, and perception -- thus wasting precious time? Makes great literature but poor statecraft -- the final moments consist of the kingdom falling to invaders. Next time you watch "Hamlet," as you enjoy the beauty and power of his soliloquies and the psychological insight Shakespeare brought to the characters, ask yourself: What is Fortinbras (the invader) doing at this moment?
Hmph. Never send a man of ideas to do a man of action's job.
This is not to say that we should act mindlessly. But RU's dilemma ("[better] to go down in a meditation posture, or clutching a Beckett play, than bellowing 'USA! USA! USA!' like some WWF ape") is false: some of the smartest, most serious, most quiet people I know are working very hard at this moment so that we don't go down at all. RU's contribution to this effort is, alas, little help.
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 2:13 AM on October 14, 2001
Right on Aaron
posted by poodlemouthe at 3:08 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by poodlemouthe at 3:08 AM on October 14, 2001
RU's contribution to this effort is, alas, little help.
Alas, RU's already got you covered. And that's the whole beauty of the essay!
"So I assert my democratic right to question the tactics of the Commander-in-chief, and I assert my existential right to declare my total uncertainty about what the right tactics are at this moment. If I were President I wouldn't have that luxury, but I'm not, so I do. You too."
There's no argument. RU has made an impervious case. Nothing to defend. Nothing to bolster. It's how he feels. TA-DAH!
Some happen to agree.
posted by crasspastor at 3:23 AM on October 14, 2001
Alas, RU's already got you covered. And that's the whole beauty of the essay!
"So I assert my democratic right to question the tactics of the Commander-in-chief, and I assert my existential right to declare my total uncertainty about what the right tactics are at this moment. If I were President I wouldn't have that luxury, but I'm not, so I do. You too."
There's no argument. RU has made an impervious case. Nothing to defend. Nothing to bolster. It's how he feels. TA-DAH!
Some happen to agree.
posted by crasspastor at 3:23 AM on October 14, 2001
Way to go, Hieronymous Coward. You said it beautifully.
Crasspastor, people who aspire to live in a democracy have a duty to explore and debate "the right tactics ... at this moment." To do otherwise is childish and irresponsible.
posted by Holden at 5:02 AM on October 14, 2001
Crasspastor, people who aspire to live in a democracy have a duty to explore and debate "the right tactics ... at this moment." To do otherwise is childish and irresponsible.
posted by Holden at 5:02 AM on October 14, 2001
Crasspastor represents the outcome of a Subjective philosophy so sickenly rampant in Western culture. The truth however is very simple and clear. America is at War
posted by stbalbach at 6:15 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by stbalbach at 6:15 AM on October 14, 2001
Remember when the bountyhunter confronts the bathing Tuco in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly? Well in the midst of his boasting about catching the mighty Tuco (the Bad) off guard, he fails to realize Tuco takes his gun into the tub, and is, accordingly, shot dead. Says the disgusted Tuco to the corpse: "When you gotta shoot, SHOOT-don't talk."
More Tuco, less R.U.
posted by quercus at 8:07 AM on October 14, 2001
More Tuco, less R.U.
posted by quercus at 8:07 AM on October 14, 2001
Tuco (the Bad)
Tuco was actually the ugly; Lee van Cleef was the Bad. Still, that was a great scene. The cannonball scene after that would probably be a good metaphor for something too. And the scene with the armies at the bridge too.
More Tuco, less R.U.
Then boy did you stumble into the wrong place here; try an Army recruitment office.
posted by boaz at 8:14 AM on October 14, 2001
Tuco was actually the ugly; Lee van Cleef was the Bad. Still, that was a great scene. The cannonball scene after that would probably be a good metaphor for something too. And the scene with the armies at the bridge too.
More Tuco, less R.U.
Then boy did you stumble into the wrong place here; try an Army recruitment office.
posted by boaz at 8:14 AM on October 14, 2001
Thanks for the correction Boaz-I thought about it-but decided Lee Van Clief was too ugly not be the UGLY-meanwhile haven't you seen Al Quaeda's latest warning to American Muslims not to get in planes and stay out of tall buildings-or are you watching censored news?
If an invading force actually landed on American shores would you still be into navel-gazing neutrality?
Well they have landed.
I'm not saying bombing Afghanistan is the right way to fight this-e.g.we could have waited until spring and got more intelligence-but I do know that you have to fight back-even if you want to fight only with words or humanitarian actions-that's something.
I have more respect for otherwise braindead war protesters than i do for this milktoast mindset that can't clarify things in the midst of a crisis.
posted by quercus at 8:41 AM on October 14, 2001
If an invading force actually landed on American shores would you still be into navel-gazing neutrality?
Well they have landed.
I'm not saying bombing Afghanistan is the right way to fight this-e.g.we could have waited until spring and got more intelligence-but I do know that you have to fight back-even if you want to fight only with words or humanitarian actions-that's something.
I have more respect for otherwise braindead war protesters than i do for this milktoast mindset that can't clarify things in the midst of a crisis.
posted by quercus at 8:41 AM on October 14, 2001
R.U. makes some valid points, but I'm with Barbara Kinsolver:
"The issue is, people are getting hurt. ... This is a war of who can hate the most. There is no limit to that escalation. It will only end when we have the guts to say it really doesn't matter who started it, and begin to try and understand, then alter the forces that generate hatred."
posted by muckster at 9:11 AM on October 14, 2001
"The issue is, people are getting hurt. ... This is a war of who can hate the most. There is no limit to that escalation. It will only end when we have the guts to say it really doesn't matter who started it, and begin to try and understand, then alter the forces that generate hatred."
posted by muckster at 9:11 AM on October 14, 2001
meanwhile haven't you seen Al Quaeda's latest warning to American Muslims not to get in planes and stay out of tall buildings-or are you watching censored news?
I thought the C in CNN stood for Clinton; now it's Censored. I am falling behind on that right-wing propaganda.
If an invading force actually landed on American shores would you still be into navel-gazing neutrality?
Well they have landed.
Whoa, lay off the hallucinogens there, quercus.
I'm not saying bombing Afghanistan is the right way to fight this-e.g.we could have waited until spring and got more intelligence-but I do know that you have to fight back-even if you want to fight only with words or humanitarian actions-that's something.
Well, I'm glad that seems clear to you.
even if you want to fight only with words
Right, you're gonna bore bin Laden to death. I think the Army could help you find a better way to fight him.
I have more respect for otherwise braindead war protesters than i do for this milktoast mindset that can't clarify things in the midst of a crisis.
First, you probably mean milquetoast; milktoast is the result of spilling you milk while groggily eating breakfast.
Second, I'm a mere 150 miles from NYC but I'm about as in the middle of a crisis as Perth is right now.
Third, I have about the same respect for braindead war protesters as braindead hawks; both make me reflect on the inversely proportional nature of intelligence and personal clarity.
posted by boaz at 9:12 AM on October 14, 2001
I thought the C in CNN stood for Clinton; now it's Censored. I am falling behind on that right-wing propaganda.
If an invading force actually landed on American shores would you still be into navel-gazing neutrality?
Well they have landed.
Whoa, lay off the hallucinogens there, quercus.
I'm not saying bombing Afghanistan is the right way to fight this-e.g.we could have waited until spring and got more intelligence-but I do know that you have to fight back-even if you want to fight only with words or humanitarian actions-that's something.
Well, I'm glad that seems clear to you.
even if you want to fight only with words
Right, you're gonna bore bin Laden to death. I think the Army could help you find a better way to fight him.
I have more respect for otherwise braindead war protesters than i do for this milktoast mindset that can't clarify things in the midst of a crisis.
First, you probably mean milquetoast; milktoast is the result of spilling you milk while groggily eating breakfast.
Second, I'm a mere 150 miles from NYC but I'm about as in the middle of a crisis as Perth is right now.
Third, I have about the same respect for braindead war protesters as braindead hawks; both make me reflect on the inversely proportional nature of intelligence and personal clarity.
posted by boaz at 9:12 AM on October 14, 2001
This thread has suddenly gone shitty.
So if I shed this "milktoast midset" and run out and but a big Oly Glory decal for the back of my car, will that make the bogeyman go away? Should I drive around my neighborhood looking for suspicious brown-skinned skulkers?
What's your point? If I don't "mobilize" myself and my family for war I'm a pinko pussy? You haven't address crasspastor's last point. R.U. has the right to contemplate. "When you gotta shoot, SHOOT-don't talk." That's great, but R.U. doesn't gotta shoot.
If painting your chest red white and blue is your way of dealing with this, fine. But that doesn't mean shit to me, and my philosophical approach shouldn't mean shit to you.
posted by jpoulos at 9:17 AM on October 14, 2001
So if I shed this "milktoast midset" and run out and but a big Oly Glory decal for the back of my car, will that make the bogeyman go away? Should I drive around my neighborhood looking for suspicious brown-skinned skulkers?
What's your point? If I don't "mobilize" myself and my family for war I'm a pinko pussy? You haven't address crasspastor's last point. R.U. has the right to contemplate. "When you gotta shoot, SHOOT-don't talk." That's great, but R.U. doesn't gotta shoot.
If painting your chest red white and blue is your way of dealing with this, fine. But that doesn't mean shit to me, and my philosophical approach shouldn't mean shit to you.
posted by jpoulos at 9:17 AM on October 14, 2001
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
posted by boaz at 9:23 AM on October 14, 2001
Are full of passionate intensity.
posted by boaz at 9:23 AM on October 14, 2001
Boaz et al. you seriously doubt whether fighting bin laden is a good thing to do?
Boaz-you seriously think war is not happening in America-I guess you think the WTC ruins are also a hallucination?
Call me crazy, but 5000 murdered people seems like war to me.
maybe these lines of Yeats are more appropriate:
"I think it better that in times like these
A poet's mouth be silent, for in truth
We have no gift to set a statesman right; . . .
(ll. 1-3) "On being asked for a War Poem" in the 1919 volume The Wild Swans at Coole
posted by quercus at 9:56 AM on October 14, 2001
Boaz-you seriously think war is not happening in America-I guess you think the WTC ruins are also a hallucination?
Call me crazy, but 5000 murdered people seems like war to me.
maybe these lines of Yeats are more appropriate:
"I think it better that in times like these
A poet's mouth be silent, for in truth
We have no gift to set a statesman right; . . .
(ll. 1-3) "On being asked for a War Poem" in the 1919 volume The Wild Swans at Coole
posted by quercus at 9:56 AM on October 14, 2001
you seriously doubt whether fighting bin laden is a good thing to do?
It's not getting bid laden that's potentially problematic. It's the killing of innocent Afghans, our adding to the overall instability in the region, and a score of other considerations. It's so much more complicated than you make it out to be. That's the point.
Call me crazy, but 5000 murdered people seems like war to me.
It seems like a terrorist attack to me. There's a difference. What the difference is, and what our response should be, is what we're having trouble with here.
posted by jpoulos at 10:07 AM on October 14, 2001
It's not getting bid laden that's potentially problematic. It's the killing of innocent Afghans, our adding to the overall instability in the region, and a score of other considerations. It's so much more complicated than you make it out to be. That's the point.
Call me crazy, but 5000 murdered people seems like war to me.
It seems like a terrorist attack to me. There's a difference. What the difference is, and what our response should be, is what we're having trouble with here.
posted by jpoulos at 10:07 AM on October 14, 2001
jpoulos-I hardly think this is simple-I am only responding to R.U.'s stance of deliberate neutrality as the best approach.
I simply don't see how you can be neutral about whether we should respond to 9-11.
How we should respond is open to debate, and, as you say, enormously complicated. But this "the best lack all convictions" philosophy is meaningless, i.e. that itself is a conviction. I've decided to make no decision, etc.
I don't say put a decal on your car. The pledge of allegiance creeps me out.
But things are going to get better, or things are going to get worse. I invite your participation.
posted by quercus at 10:29 AM on October 14, 2001
I simply don't see how you can be neutral about whether we should respond to 9-11.
How we should respond is open to debate, and, as you say, enormously complicated. But this "the best lack all convictions" philosophy is meaningless, i.e. that itself is a conviction. I've decided to make no decision, etc.
I don't say put a decal on your car. The pledge of allegiance creeps me out.
But things are going to get better, or things are going to get worse. I invite your participation.
posted by quercus at 10:29 AM on October 14, 2001
There have been worse times. Better times followed. For a virus with shoes, hell-bent on mutual extermination, we're pretty resiliant.
posted by holgate at 10:29 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by holgate at 10:29 AM on October 14, 2001
stbalbach: Crasspastor represents the outcome of a Subjective philosophy so sickenly rampant in Western culture.
Why, that's calvinisim!
posted by signal at 10:44 AM on October 14, 2001
Why, that's calvinisim!
posted by signal at 10:44 AM on October 14, 2001
Boaz et al. you seriously doubt whether fighting bin laden is a good thing to do?
I actually support the war in Afghanistan, but I am painfully aware of how little bravery that requires. I've done the moral algebra: we send thousands to fight other thousands so that our millions can sleep safe. But I'm not going to be part of the first group of thousands or the second group of thousands; I'm going to be part of the millions sleeping safely. Which kinda makes it the easiest decision in the world from a self-serving standpoint. Which is exactly why listening to chickenhawks like you gets old so very, very fast.
Boaz-you seriously think war is not happening in America-I guess you think the WTC ruins are also a hallucination?
I'm glad you were sober for that, but I'll stick with the thesis that you were out of your gourd when the enemy landed (and I assume when the Martians probed you as well).
Call me crazy, but 5000 murdered people seems like war to me.
Funny, that's less than half the annual level of murders we've had for the past 25 years. I assume we've declared another 50 wars that I'm just unaware of. Let's see: War on Drugs, Noriega, Iraq, Grenada, hmm I'm fading here.
Personally, I'll still nominate newnameintown for best insane ranting; you just don't have the spark.
posted by boaz at 12:29 PM on October 14, 2001
I actually support the war in Afghanistan, but I am painfully aware of how little bravery that requires. I've done the moral algebra: we send thousands to fight other thousands so that our millions can sleep safe. But I'm not going to be part of the first group of thousands or the second group of thousands; I'm going to be part of the millions sleeping safely. Which kinda makes it the easiest decision in the world from a self-serving standpoint. Which is exactly why listening to chickenhawks like you gets old so very, very fast.
Boaz-you seriously think war is not happening in America-I guess you think the WTC ruins are also a hallucination?
I'm glad you were sober for that, but I'll stick with the thesis that you were out of your gourd when the enemy landed (and I assume when the Martians probed you as well).
Call me crazy, but 5000 murdered people seems like war to me.
Funny, that's less than half the annual level of murders we've had for the past 25 years. I assume we've declared another 50 wars that I'm just unaware of. Let's see: War on Drugs, Noriega, Iraq, Grenada, hmm I'm fading here.
Personally, I'll still nominate newnameintown for best insane ranting; you just don't have the spark.
posted by boaz at 12:29 PM on October 14, 2001
Crasspastor represents the outcome of a Subjective philosophy so sickenly rampant in Western culture.
Actually no. I personally felt pretty buffered by all the ancient Eastern Philosophy. Even if this is a time of war, it'd be rash to jump to conclusions or jump on bandwagons of any sort. To sift everything I think I know about the contours of "America's (the world's) New War" and then declare I don't have any idea, errs at least on the side of
::::incomplete information at this time:::::
I've dedicated myself to nothing that I may regret in the future.
jpoulos and boaz hit some nails on the head up there.
posted by crasspastor at 12:47 PM on October 14, 2001
Actually no. I personally felt pretty buffered by all the ancient Eastern Philosophy. Even if this is a time of war, it'd be rash to jump to conclusions or jump on bandwagons of any sort. To sift everything I think I know about the contours of "America's (the world's) New War" and then declare I don't have any idea, errs at least on the side of
::::incomplete information at this time:::::
I've dedicated myself to nothing that I may regret in the future.
jpoulos and boaz hit some nails on the head up there.
posted by crasspastor at 12:47 PM on October 14, 2001
And this thread showed such promise. it's sad, in a way, that what started out as a civilized conversation on the general emotional state of affairs degenerated into name calling and "I can't believe you aren't 100% behind this Brave New War".
To all hawks, there's another 50 threads where you can rant and parade your certainty. Please leave this one to those of us who are confused.
posted by signal at 12:48 PM on October 14, 2001
To all hawks, there's another 50 threads where you can rant and parade your certainty. Please leave this one to those of us who are confused.
posted by signal at 12:48 PM on October 14, 2001
Hieronymous: RU's contribution to this effort is, alas, little help.
Crasspastor: Alas, RU's already got you covered. And that's the whole beauty of the essay! ... There's no argument. RU has made an impervious case. Nothing to defend. Nothing to bolster. It's how he feels. TA-DAH!
<disgust> Oh. Solipsism. You're right, that is impervious. </disgust>
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 3:14 PM on October 14, 2001
Crasspastor: Alas, RU's already got you covered. And that's the whole beauty of the essay! ... There's no argument. RU has made an impervious case. Nothing to defend. Nothing to bolster. It's how he feels. TA-DAH!
<disgust> Oh. Solipsism. You're right, that is impervious. </disgust>
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 3:14 PM on October 14, 2001
I've dedicated myself to nothing that I may regret in the future.
You could regret that in the future. Sometimes the risk of doing nothing is greater then the risk of doing somthing, even if we dont know where that somthing will lead.
posted by stbalbach at 5:46 PM on October 14, 2001
You could regret that in the future. Sometimes the risk of doing nothing is greater then the risk of doing somthing, even if we dont know where that somthing will lead.
posted by stbalbach at 5:46 PM on October 14, 2001
No Hieronymous Coward.
I wrote "It's how he feels. TA-DAH!"
Nobody's denying the reality of the day. RU wrote how he felt--his opinion. That's it.
I commiserate with his uncertainty.
You could regret that in the future. Sometimes the risk of doing nothing is greater then the risk of doing somthing, even if we dont know where that somthing will lead.
I don't know about you, but no matter how outta hand this fucker gets (save "this fucker" happening right outside my window proper) I won't be doing anything anyways. Not flying flags. And not joining peace marches. I don't know if I will or won't join a peace organization. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I don't know yet.
Get it? I'm a leftie. And I'm being honest. Thread attest.
Okay?
posted by crasspastor at 11:02 PM on October 14, 2001
I wrote "It's how he feels. TA-DAH!"
Nobody's denying the reality of the day. RU wrote how he felt--his opinion. That's it.
I commiserate with his uncertainty.
You could regret that in the future. Sometimes the risk of doing nothing is greater then the risk of doing somthing, even if we dont know where that somthing will lead.
I don't know about you, but no matter how outta hand this fucker gets (save "this fucker" happening right outside my window proper) I won't be doing anything anyways. Not flying flags. And not joining peace marches. I don't know if I will or won't join a peace organization. I don't know yet. I don't know yet. I don't know yet.
Get it? I'm a leftie. And I'm being honest. Thread attest.
Okay?
posted by crasspastor at 11:02 PM on October 14, 2001
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