Fifty Years Ago Heathrow Was a Pleasant Airport
June 16, 2014 5:05 AM Subscribe
(LHR) Heathrow Airport 1964. Fifty years ago it was the worlds busiest airport, now it's lost that distinction.
>Fifty years ago it was the worlds busiest airport
Umm, as of last year it was still the world's busiest airport, and as of right now, it has not yet lost that title, although it well might, given Dubai's ascendency.
posted by kcds at 5:32 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Umm, as of last year it was still the world's busiest airport, and as of right now, it has not yet lost that title, although it well might, given Dubai's ascendency.
posted by kcds at 5:32 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Umm, as of last year it was still the world's busiest airport, and as of right now, it has not yet lost that title, although it well might, given Dubai's ascendency.
It's the busiest international airport - other airports handle more domestic passengers, planes or cargo, but Heathrow still handles the most international passengers.
Heathrow will continue to decline until politicians actually build another runway. Until then, the likes of Schiphol, Frankfurt and Charles DeGaulle will strengthen as European gateways from the Americas, Asia and the Middle East.
posted by metaxa at 5:43 AM on June 16, 2014
It's the busiest international airport - other airports handle more domestic passengers, planes or cargo, but Heathrow still handles the most international passengers.
Heathrow will continue to decline until politicians actually build another runway. Until then, the likes of Schiphol, Frankfurt and Charles DeGaulle will strengthen as European gateways from the Americas, Asia and the Middle East.
posted by metaxa at 5:43 AM on June 16, 2014
A few years ago, I was stuck on a 6-hour layover at Heathrow.
After spending an improbable amount of time to walk between terminals, I had to re-clear security, through a security process that made the TSA look friendly and casual. Eventually, I was corralled into a tiny common waiting area (which is the typical European airport design) with all of the other passengers at the airport, up until 10 minutes before my boarding time.
For 6 hours, I was stuck in this tiny waiting area, next to the most $*#&ing fragrant perfume counter I have ever encountered, and was practically weeping, because I was allergic to the toxic flower mists that they were spraying in everybody's faces. I was not the only person having this reaction, and there weren't any vendors in the waiting area who were selling any sort of allergy medication.
Fuck Heathrow.
posted by schmod at 5:45 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
After spending an improbable amount of time to walk between terminals, I had to re-clear security, through a security process that made the TSA look friendly and casual. Eventually, I was corralled into a tiny common waiting area (which is the typical European airport design) with all of the other passengers at the airport, up until 10 minutes before my boarding time.
For 6 hours, I was stuck in this tiny waiting area, next to the most $*#&ing fragrant perfume counter I have ever encountered, and was practically weeping, because I was allergic to the toxic flower mists that they were spraying in everybody's faces. I was not the only person having this reaction, and there weren't any vendors in the waiting area who were selling any sort of allergy medication.
Fuck Heathrow.
posted by schmod at 5:45 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
Here is a non daily mail version of that story. Although I rather suspect that it's a bit of a ra ra let's built more runways puff piece than an actual story.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:46 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:46 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
metaxa: "Heathrow will continue to decline until politicians actually build another runway. Until then, the likes of Schiphol, Frankfurt and Charles DeGaulle will strengthen as European gateways from the Americas, Asia and the Middle East."
What's the motive for this? Is there a particularly attractive reason for having a busy international transfer hub super-close to London? Does constant growth of the airport improve the lives of Londoners or bring new business to the city?
...or is this whole story just more of the same populist/right-wing "ZOMG! Britain is in decline! Thatcher! Foreigners!" bullshit that's been circulating for ages now?
posted by schmod at 5:49 AM on June 16, 2014 [14 favorites]
What's the motive for this? Is there a particularly attractive reason for having a busy international transfer hub super-close to London? Does constant growth of the airport improve the lives of Londoners or bring new business to the city?
...or is this whole story just more of the same populist/right-wing "ZOMG! Britain is in decline! Thatcher! Foreigners!" bullshit that's been circulating for ages now?
posted by schmod at 5:49 AM on June 16, 2014 [14 favorites]
Also looking at this link Heathrow is at number 1 and Gatwick at number 12. The US doesn't appear till no 17 on the list.
So the UK is still well in the lead when it comes to people passing through it on highly polluting planes. Yay!?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:56 AM on June 16, 2014
So the UK is still well in the lead when it comes to people passing through it on highly polluting planes. Yay!?
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:56 AM on June 16, 2014
CDG still leads the world in olfactory passenger assault. The Heathrow perfume chemical weaponry may be lethal in a circumscribed zone of fire, but by god those French cheese shops have an effective radius of action that's second only to the AN602 Царь-бомба, which as far as I know has never been deployed within an airport perimeter.
posted by Devonian at 6:07 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 6:07 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
schmod - I hear you, though I think Heathrow (particularly the newer terminals, T5 and now T2) are much better than most for the whole 'security' dance.
The particularly British inclination to convert all transport terminals (whether air, train or anything else) into glorified shopping malls is ridiculous, however.
posted by metaxa at 6:12 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
The particularly British inclination to convert all transport terminals (whether air, train or anything else) into glorified shopping malls is ridiculous, however.
posted by metaxa at 6:12 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
glorified shopping malls
True, though I hate being stuck at airports with nothing but a glorified canteen selling stale sandwiches and instant coffee. I know it's hardly luxury, but I am never more grateful for our endless coffee franchises selling oversized coffee-flavoured milk then when I'm facing an international flight at 4am.
posted by dumdidumdum at 6:23 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
True, though I hate being stuck at airports with nothing but a glorified canteen selling stale sandwiches and instant coffee. I know it's hardly luxury, but I am never more grateful for our endless coffee franchises selling oversized coffee-flavoured milk then when I'm facing an international flight at 4am.
posted by dumdidumdum at 6:23 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
The particularly British inclination to convert all transport terminals (whether air, train or anything else) into glorified shopping malls is ridiculous, however.
The Dutch invented this. At least for Airports.
posted by JPD at 6:40 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Dutch invented this. At least for Airports.
posted by JPD at 6:40 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, I was amazed at what you could buy at the Amsterdam airport. Diamonds, anything. A solid gold necktie? Right this way sir.
posted by thelonius at 6:45 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 6:45 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I quite like the giant shopping centre approach to be honest, gives me something to do. I remember a flight in the US where like a good model citizen I got through security nice and early, only to discover that there was one food outlet and one newsagent. And hardly any seats. And I was now trapped there for the next two hours. Wooh!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:58 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:58 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
What's the motive for this? Is there a particularly attractive reason for having a busy international transfer hub super-close to London? Does constant growth of the airport improve the lives of Londoners or bring new business to the city?
I understand that Heathrow brings somewhere to the tune of £6bn($10bn)/year to the UK economy. So, yeah, there's that.
If the runway got built, many of the issues folk cite with Heathrow would be significantly alleviated. No other airport on earth runs as close to capacity as Heathrow, it is little wonder that the butterfly effect is so magnified there.
posted by metaxa at 6:58 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I understand that Heathrow brings somewhere to the tune of £6bn($10bn)/year to the UK economy. So, yeah, there's that.
If the runway got built, many of the issues folk cite with Heathrow would be significantly alleviated. No other airport on earth runs as close to capacity as Heathrow, it is little wonder that the butterfly effect is so magnified there.
posted by metaxa at 6:58 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Is Heathrow really competing with Dubai for the same passengers? I also thought it was amusing that the Mail piece leads off with "for the first time in 350 years Britain does not have the world's busiest airport."
posted by KokuRyu at 6:59 AM on June 16, 2014
posted by KokuRyu at 6:59 AM on June 16, 2014
Politicians were yesterday accused of squandering 350 years of British transport supremacy after Dubai overtook Heathrow as the world’s busiest airport.
I had no idea that Heathrow was that old. How forward thinking to have built a massive airport before there were airplanes. Perhaps building it helped bring the country together after the Civil War.
"Tho wee knew not wat wuld be Its use, the hart of Englishman 'twas fild with Pride at Its contruxion"
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:06 AM on June 16, 2014 [15 favorites]
I had no idea that Heathrow was that old. How forward thinking to have built a massive airport before there were airplanes. Perhaps building it helped bring the country together after the Civil War.
"Tho wee knew not wat wuld be Its use, the hart of Englishman 'twas fild with Pride at Its contruxion"
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:06 AM on June 16, 2014 [15 favorites]
For a certain portion yes. Dubai has basically replaced Heathrow for a large amount of traffic between Conti Europe and SE Asia, Austrialia, S Asia and Africa. There is also some N.American traffic to those same locations its replaced.
But its sort of irrelevant. Dubai has a bunch of cost advantages and location advantages that even an infinite number of runways couldn't solve - even if you thought this was a problem worth solving.
Or you could just wait around and see if Emirates actually is a real business.
posted by JPD at 7:07 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
But its sort of irrelevant. Dubai has a bunch of cost advantages and location advantages that even an infinite number of runways couldn't solve - even if you thought this was a problem worth solving.
Or you could just wait around and see if Emirates actually is a real business.
posted by JPD at 7:07 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also looking at this link Heathrow is at number 1 and Gatwick at number 12. The US doesn't appear till no 17 on the list.
So the UK is still well in the lead when it comes to people passing through it on highly polluting planes. Yay!?
These figures are for international travellers, since the US is big there is a lot of internal travel that does not go to the figures. The UK is small and public transport is fairy effective so there is less domestic travel.
The particularly British inclination to convert all transport terminals (whether air, train or anything else) into glorified shopping malls is ridiculous, however.
This is a reflection of the way that UK airports are regulated. Since the airport is a form of monopoly the airport owners are limited in what costs they can pass on to consumers in a formula dictated by the capital investment, number of passengers and landing charges for planes (which relates to plane size, etc) and limited in how much money they can make. UK airports are subject to what is called a 'single till' regime, that is, where all the money from both aviation and non-aviation activities counts in a single consideration. The UK airports found they could make more money more efficiently by flogging a pile of stack it high consumer goods than they could from competing with other forms of transport, so that's where their focus has been for the last 15 years or so.
posted by biffa at 7:09 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
So the UK is still well in the lead when it comes to people passing through it on highly polluting planes. Yay!?
These figures are for international travellers, since the US is big there is a lot of internal travel that does not go to the figures. The UK is small and public transport is fairy effective so there is less domestic travel.
The particularly British inclination to convert all transport terminals (whether air, train or anything else) into glorified shopping malls is ridiculous, however.
This is a reflection of the way that UK airports are regulated. Since the airport is a form of monopoly the airport owners are limited in what costs they can pass on to consumers in a formula dictated by the capital investment, number of passengers and landing charges for planes (which relates to plane size, etc) and limited in how much money they can make. UK airports are subject to what is called a 'single till' regime, that is, where all the money from both aviation and non-aviation activities counts in a single consideration. The UK airports found they could make more money more efficiently by flogging a pile of stack it high consumer goods than they could from competing with other forms of transport, so that's where their focus has been for the last 15 years or so.
posted by biffa at 7:09 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Gatwick has a much nicer WHSmiths books, but at Heathrow you can get sushi for very early breakfast.
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 7:12 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by thegirlwiththehat at 7:12 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
actually if you had a dual till you'd be more motivated to do retail. BAA has always wanted Dual Till AFAIK.
posted by JPD at 7:14 AM on June 16, 2014
posted by JPD at 7:14 AM on June 16, 2014
We're complaining about the ability to buy nicely priced tech gear, Harrod's tea cookies & dolls, designer shoes and perfumes now? I used to go through Heathrow a lot (T5 mainly) and while the security dance is as bad as it can get, once I cleared that I have hours before the next flight. I could shop for toys, shoes, makeup or have seafood, go to a pub, sit down for Japanese dinner. This is what airports are supposed to be like.
Though there's a really neat and tiny espresso bar at CDC that is worth the landing there too.
posted by dabitch at 7:15 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
Though there's a really neat and tiny espresso bar at CDC that is worth the landing there too.
posted by dabitch at 7:15 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
It looks like that claim comes from
One Hub or None: The case for a single UK Hub Airport
which is an entirely unbiased piece written by Heathrow airport in November 2012 (so it would be 352 years now surely) making the case for building new runways.
"Our history as an island trading nation should give us
a clue. We do well in specialist industries that require
global mobility - businesses that either need to meet
clients around the world, or attract talent from across
the globe. Part of our competitive advantage is rooted
in the UK having had the world’s largest port or airport
on its shores for the past 350 years. This has meant
that the world travelled through the UK to reach its
final destination. Consequently London has become
the centre of global service industries like insurance,
law and finance"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:15 AM on June 16, 2014
One Hub or None: The case for a single UK Hub Airport
which is an entirely unbiased piece written by Heathrow airport in November 2012 (so it would be 352 years now surely) making the case for building new runways.
"Our history as an island trading nation should give us
a clue. We do well in specialist industries that require
global mobility - businesses that either need to meet
clients around the world, or attract talent from across
the globe. Part of our competitive advantage is rooted
in the UK having had the world’s largest port or airport
on its shores for the past 350 years. This has meant
that the world travelled through the UK to reach its
final destination. Consequently London has become
the centre of global service industries like insurance,
law and finance"
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:15 AM on June 16, 2014
Agreed that Heathrow T5 (and by all accounts, the new T2) is as good as any other modern airport out there, if rather too heavy on the shops. However, the one thing that really fucks me off about Heathrow is the lack of water fountains. Apparently while the unbridled capitalists in the US are perfectly fine providing free water, it's just unacceptable to give people the minimum amount of liquid sustenance in the UK.
posted by adrianhon at 7:19 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by adrianhon at 7:19 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
Heathrow is where travel plans go to die.
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 7:20 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Philosopher Dirtbike at 7:20 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, all airports should have water fountains and free wifi too, please.
posted by dabitch at 7:21 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by dabitch at 7:21 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
The current market funding costs for total capital for something like BAA is less than what the CAA sets the allowed return at right now (mostly because the market will allow more debt - theoretically this doesn't make a difference - per Modigilani-Miller, but mechanically it does)
What this means is that the owners of regulated monopolies want to make as big an investment they can right now. So a new runway sounds great.
The flip side is that BAAs owners really really really don't want a new airport because that will be put out to bid where the current lower capital costs will be implicit in the bids.
There was an article on Thames Water in the Guardian recently that's pretty terrible, but all of the actual issues addressed are basically down to the same issue.
posted by JPD at 7:22 AM on June 16, 2014
What this means is that the owners of regulated monopolies want to make as big an investment they can right now. So a new runway sounds great.
The flip side is that BAAs owners really really really don't want a new airport because that will be put out to bid where the current lower capital costs will be implicit in the bids.
There was an article on Thames Water in the Guardian recently that's pretty terrible, but all of the actual issues addressed are basically down to the same issue.
posted by JPD at 7:22 AM on June 16, 2014
into glorified shopping malls is ridiculous, however.
I actually like this approach. There's nothing worse than being stuck in an unfamiliar city's airport for hours on end with nothing of basic comfort.
posted by jsavimbi at 7:34 AM on June 16, 2014
I actually like this approach. There's nothing worse than being stuck in an unfamiliar city's airport for hours on end with nothing of basic comfort.
posted by jsavimbi at 7:34 AM on June 16, 2014
The Dutch invented this. At least for Airports.
The Dutch may have invented it, Asia perfected it. Changi is a masterpiece of shopping, but it also happens to be an amazing place to spend time in all other respects. Jungle retreats? Rooftop beer gardens? More of that please!
One of my strangest experiences was deplaning at Kuala Lumpur at something like 5am, and wandering around a near-empty airport full of open retail outlets and shop attendants standing to attention, ready to serve. The jet lag only made it more surreal.
posted by sektah at 7:38 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Dutch may have invented it, Asia perfected it. Changi is a masterpiece of shopping, but it also happens to be an amazing place to spend time in all other respects. Jungle retreats? Rooftop beer gardens? More of that please!
One of my strangest experiences was deplaning at Kuala Lumpur at something like 5am, and wandering around a near-empty airport full of open retail outlets and shop attendants standing to attention, ready to serve. The jet lag only made it more surreal.
posted by sektah at 7:38 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Busiest airport is complicated.
For 2013, the busiest airport by…
Total Passengers: ATL (94M) PEK (83M) LHR (72M) HND (68M) and ORD (66M) though ORD is all but tied with LAX and DXB.
Aircraft movements: ATL (930K), ORD (878K), LAX (690K) DFW (650K) and DEN (612K). PEK is #6, CDG is #10. This is the regional jet effect in the US.
Cargo tonnes: HKG (4.1M), MEM (4.1M), PVG (2.9M), ICN (2.4M) and DXB (2.4M) ANC is right there with DXB, though. If you're wondering about MEM, Memphis is FedEx's hub airport.
Passengers by city (all airports): London (134M), NYC (112M), Tokyo (99M), Atlanta (94M) and Paris (92M). Note that ATL gets this with just one airport, and London is counting Stansted and Luton.
ATL is Delta's largest hub, and has a very efficient runway layout -- 5 parallel, no crosswinds, and has a very large, efficient terminal core. Well, efficient for airplane movements, it's a bit of a pain for people. ORD now has 4 parallel, with the 5th building now, but still has the very tight domestic terminal cluster (T5, off to the side, is much easier to move around.) so I don't think it will retake the lead from ATL on airplane movements. Both are down the first two months of 2014 -- ORD is down 12% -- which isn't surprising given the horrible winter this year, there were cancellations upon cancellations.
London is runway-constrained, with both LHR and LGW really needing another runway. LHR has the terminal space to handle another runway, now that the rebuilt T2 and the new T5 pier are open.
posted by eriko at 7:40 AM on June 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
For 2013, the busiest airport by…
Total Passengers: ATL (94M) PEK (83M) LHR (72M) HND (68M) and ORD (66M) though ORD is all but tied with LAX and DXB.
Aircraft movements: ATL (930K), ORD (878K), LAX (690K) DFW (650K) and DEN (612K). PEK is #6, CDG is #10. This is the regional jet effect in the US.
Cargo tonnes: HKG (4.1M), MEM (4.1M), PVG (2.9M), ICN (2.4M) and DXB (2.4M) ANC is right there with DXB, though. If you're wondering about MEM, Memphis is FedEx's hub airport.
Passengers by city (all airports): London (134M), NYC (112M), Tokyo (99M), Atlanta (94M) and Paris (92M). Note that ATL gets this with just one airport, and London is counting Stansted and Luton.
ATL is Delta's largest hub, and has a very efficient runway layout -- 5 parallel, no crosswinds, and has a very large, efficient terminal core. Well, efficient for airplane movements, it's a bit of a pain for people. ORD now has 4 parallel, with the 5th building now, but still has the very tight domestic terminal cluster (T5, off to the side, is much easier to move around.) so I don't think it will retake the lead from ATL on airplane movements. Both are down the first two months of 2014 -- ORD is down 12% -- which isn't surprising given the horrible winter this year, there were cancellations upon cancellations.
London is runway-constrained, with both LHR and LGW really needing another runway. LHR has the terminal space to handle another runway, now that the rebuilt T2 and the new T5 pier are open.
posted by eriko at 7:40 AM on June 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
Hm, I don't know where you're being assaulted by cheese smells in Charles de Gaulle, but I failed miserably at finding cheese there. I had just returned from 10 months in the rainforest and DAMMIT I wanted cheese. And I had a 9 hour layover. So I wandered around asking all the folks in the fancy stores, "Pardon, mais ou est le fromage?!" only to be told that there was no cheese unless I wanted to buy the 50 euro special cheese duty free package. I did not.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:43 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 7:43 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:51 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:51 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
The most, MOST annoying thing about flying into Heathrow as an American is that there's one line for people from Commonwealth countries, one line for people from EU countries, and one lines for "ALL THE RABBLE WITHOUT SPECIAL PASSPORT CONTROL TREATIES YES THAT INCLUDES YOU AMERICANS" and your plane lands right after a plane arriving full of people intending to permanently immigrate from a third-world country and you're the ONE AMERICAN on the flight arriving from Ireland and everyone else gets in the happy short lines and you spend TWO DAMN HOURS behind people with all kinds of special visas and immigration papers and children whose guardianship and travel papers have to be matched against birth certificates and all kinds of stuff until finally you get to the front and the passport agent glances your US passport cover and just waves you through without even opening it and you're like JESUS CHRIST AMERICA JOIN SOME FREE-MOVEMENT PASSPORT TREATIES ALREADY THIS SUCKS.
(Actually I guess now it's just EU and non-EU lines but THE POINT STANDS, it's just that Canadians must now suffer with me.)
On the plus side, Heathrow always makes me feel better about O'Hare.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
(Actually I guess now it's just EU and non-EU lines but THE POINT STANDS, it's just that Canadians must now suffer with me.)
On the plus side, Heathrow always makes me feel better about O'Hare.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
Other thoughts on Heathrow:
- Transport: I think we'll all be relieved when Crossrail starts up and it's possible to get to Heathrow about 10-15 minutes quicker, and in a slightly less crowded carriage. I recall that in their bid for a third runway Heathrow suggested they would upgrade the transport even further, although I'm not entirely clear how they could manage that.
- Wifi: It's lovely seeing genuinely free wifi spread around most airports. Unsurprisingly that's not something Heathrow has managed yet but at least you get 30 minutes for free, with another 30 (or is it 60-90 minutes?) if you sign up for their rewards thing, which is also free. When we all settle on a standard for wireless power, things'll be even better...
posted by adrianhon at 7:51 AM on June 16, 2014
- Transport: I think we'll all be relieved when Crossrail starts up and it's possible to get to Heathrow about 10-15 minutes quicker, and in a slightly less crowded carriage. I recall that in their bid for a third runway Heathrow suggested they would upgrade the transport even further, although I'm not entirely clear how they could manage that.
- Wifi: It's lovely seeing genuinely free wifi spread around most airports. Unsurprisingly that's not something Heathrow has managed yet but at least you get 30 minutes for free, with another 30 (or is it 60-90 minutes?) if you sign up for their rewards thing, which is also free. When we all settle on a standard for wireless power, things'll be even better...
posted by adrianhon at 7:51 AM on June 16, 2014
Eyebrows McGee: "The most, MOST annoying thing about flying into Heathrow as an American ..."
I guess what I'm saying is, SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP MY ASS.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:00 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I guess what I'm saying is, SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP MY ASS.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:00 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
and you spend TWO DAMN HOURS behind people
That must be horrible. I can't imagine having to ever do that, being an American and all.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:03 AM on June 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
That must be horrible. I can't imagine having to ever do that, being an American and all.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:03 AM on June 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
Yes, all airports should have water fountains and free wifi too, please.
posted by dabitch at 7:21 AM on June 16 [+] [!]
Here in the U.S., we have something better. It's called CNN, and it's free at every airport and it's *everywhere*.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:12 AM on June 16, 2014
posted by dabitch at 7:21 AM on June 16 [+] [!]
Here in the U.S., we have something better. It's called CNN, and it's free at every airport and it's *everywhere*.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:12 AM on June 16, 2014
I guess what I'm saying is, SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP MY ASS.
Yeah, it goes both ways though. Your entire paragraph is equally valid if you replace the occurrences of 'Heathrow' with JFK (or LAX, or ORD, or DFW, or IAD) and 'American' with 'British'.
I can recite the 'WELCOME TO AMERICA!' video that's played at US immigration word for word.
posted by metaxa at 8:19 AM on June 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
Yeah, it goes both ways though. Your entire paragraph is equally valid if you replace the occurrences of 'Heathrow' with JFK (or LAX, or ORD, or DFW, or IAD) and 'American' with 'British'.
I can recite the 'WELCOME TO AMERICA!' video that's played at US immigration word for word.
posted by metaxa at 8:19 AM on June 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
Remember that the vested interests so keen on you maximising your shopping are also intent on minimising your involvement with purgatorial time-sinks such as security security checks, customs, gate queues and check in.
posted by rongorongo at 8:20 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 8:20 AM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
The most, MOST annoying thing about flying into Heathrow as an American is...
The most, most annoying thing about people from the US coming to the UK is that they don't appreciate the 6 months visa free stay they're allowed, whereas UK citizens going to the US get only 3 months. "Special relationship" my ass.
posted by Thing at 8:20 AM on June 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
The most, most annoying thing about people from the US coming to the UK is that they don't appreciate the 6 months visa free stay they're allowed, whereas UK citizens going to the US get only 3 months. "Special relationship" my ass.
posted by Thing at 8:20 AM on June 16, 2014 [6 favorites]
I fly all the time for my job and I just wish airports (and public places in general) would pay more attention to the sound environment. ATL is one of the worst offenders. There's the aforementioned CNN blaring at every gate, AND smooth jazz music coming out of the speakers, AND general announcements, AND gate announcements. So there's like 4 different noisy things going on all at once. Not to mention the beeping electric car-things and motorized trash cans. There's also bare floors and high celings, so the sound just ricochets all around.
Contrast that with MSP, which is like a haven of peace and serenity (as far as airports go). It's carpeted, and there are low ceilings with acoustical tile. Some of the corridors play baroque-era classical music, quietly, but that's about it.
(In general, most public places could stand to be a lot quieter. One of the reasons I shop at Target is that there is no piped-in music. The myriad decisions made while shopping are fatiguing enough; if there's music playing, I can barely concentrate well enough to make my purchases and get out.)
posted by spacewaitress at 8:36 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Contrast that with MSP, which is like a haven of peace and serenity (as far as airports go). It's carpeted, and there are low ceilings with acoustical tile. Some of the corridors play baroque-era classical music, quietly, but that's about it.
(In general, most public places could stand to be a lot quieter. One of the reasons I shop at Target is that there is no piped-in music. The myriad decisions made while shopping are fatiguing enough; if there's music playing, I can barely concentrate well enough to make my purchases and get out.)
posted by spacewaitress at 8:36 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
jsavimbi: "I can't imagine having to ever do that, being an American and all."
EXACTLY.
No, but seriously, security and passport control at Heathrow are both particularly onerous as first-world airports go. It's definitely improved over the last couple decades, and I understand that some of that's just what you cope with as such a big and crowded airport, but I always feel that special feeling of "Uggggggggh, this is about to suck" when I get to Heathrow. (I probably fly through Heathrow too often because my "miles" are all on American and my international travel goal is usually to get OFF American and onto BA as quickly as possible.)
(Wasn't the security screening area at one of the terminals at Heathrow not air conditioned until fairly recently and you used to stand there in a fug of human sweat smells for ages and ages? Or maybe that was just during terminal renovations. I have special memories of that joy.)
metaxa: "Yeah, it goes both ways though. Your entire paragraph is equally valid if you replace the occurrences of 'Heathrow' with JFK (or LAX, or ORD, or DFW, or IAD) and 'American' with 'British'. "
Yeah ... American security/immigration is totally awful and I frankly am surprised our tourism numbers haven't dropped more than they have just because of the SPECIAL HORROR of coming through immigration at American airports as a foreign visitor after 9/11.
I did border pre-clearance out of Dublin (to the US) not too long ago and that was really interesting ... convenient, especially since you have to wait around the airport anyway, and doing it in Dublin was much faster than doing it at O'Hare. Dublin is currently the only European airport with US preclearance; I expect there's a market for some other smaller airports in Europe to grab market share for US-bound business travelers by adding the pre-clearance, especially secondary international airports in a big city, since apparently it adds more speed when you do it at a small airport (whereas pre-clearing in Toronto can take longer than just going through immigration in the US when you arrive).
Anyway. Heathrow! I'm glad I can now afford your Express to Paddington instead of taking the Piccadilly line, and I'm glad you finally got your fifth terminal.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:39 AM on June 16, 2014
EXACTLY.
No, but seriously, security and passport control at Heathrow are both particularly onerous as first-world airports go. It's definitely improved over the last couple decades, and I understand that some of that's just what you cope with as such a big and crowded airport, but I always feel that special feeling of "Uggggggggh, this is about to suck" when I get to Heathrow. (I probably fly through Heathrow too often because my "miles" are all on American and my international travel goal is usually to get OFF American and onto BA as quickly as possible.)
(Wasn't the security screening area at one of the terminals at Heathrow not air conditioned until fairly recently and you used to stand there in a fug of human sweat smells for ages and ages? Or maybe that was just during terminal renovations. I have special memories of that joy.)
metaxa: "Yeah, it goes both ways though. Your entire paragraph is equally valid if you replace the occurrences of 'Heathrow' with JFK (or LAX, or ORD, or DFW, or IAD) and 'American' with 'British'. "
Yeah ... American security/immigration is totally awful and I frankly am surprised our tourism numbers haven't dropped more than they have just because of the SPECIAL HORROR of coming through immigration at American airports as a foreign visitor after 9/11.
I did border pre-clearance out of Dublin (to the US) not too long ago and that was really interesting ... convenient, especially since you have to wait around the airport anyway, and doing it in Dublin was much faster than doing it at O'Hare. Dublin is currently the only European airport with US preclearance; I expect there's a market for some other smaller airports in Europe to grab market share for US-bound business travelers by adding the pre-clearance, especially secondary international airports in a big city, since apparently it adds more speed when you do it at a small airport (whereas pre-clearing in Toronto can take longer than just going through immigration in the US when you arrive).
Anyway. Heathrow! I'm glad I can now afford your Express to Paddington instead of taking the Piccadilly line, and I'm glad you finally got your fifth terminal.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:39 AM on June 16, 2014
It hasn't all gone downhill- 50 years ago, if you wanted to be felt up by a man in a uniform, you'd have to make a special arrangement to meet him in the gents'.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:24 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:24 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
Oh god. 707's. DC-8's. Comets. Silver finishes. Sleek jet nacelles. Helvetica signs. So porny. Obscene! NSFW tag.
posted by bicyclefish at 10:07 AM on June 16, 2014
posted by bicyclefish at 10:07 AM on June 16, 2014
I have flown four hours out of my way just to avoid transiting through Heathrow. It's the only international airport I've visited that compares to American airports in sheer sullen hostility. Suffering a speech from Fat Nigel three times about how the 90 minute layover my tickets budgeted for transit through Heathrow wasn't enough because I had to go stand in the "security men yell at you" line and because the inter-terminal shuttle is actually a donkey-pulled hay cart was enough. Never again.
Still, won't fly out of Dubai though. Like hell am I contributing to a slave economy. I'd rather support Nigel. Just.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:16 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Still, won't fly out of Dubai though. Like hell am I contributing to a slave economy. I'd rather support Nigel. Just.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:16 AM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I did border pre-clearance out of Dublin (to the US) not too long ago and that was really interesting ... convenient, especially since you have to wait around the airport anyway, and doing it in Dublin was much faster than doing it at O'Hare. Dublin is currently the only European airport with US preclearance;
Shannon also has it, I used it a few weeks ago. Total breeze.
posted by metaxa at 10:46 AM on June 16, 2014
Shannon also has it, I used it a few weeks ago. Total breeze.
posted by metaxa at 10:46 AM on June 16, 2014
Eyebrows McGee , Stockholm also has that "fast track" pre clearance thing for certain airlines flying direct to the US. You go through security at the gate of your departing flight, complete with a polite patdown and hand-luggage check. Not sure what happens when people who have paid for this land in the US, if they get a special line to queue up in or what.
posted by dabitch at 10:53 AM on June 16, 2014
posted by dabitch at 10:53 AM on June 16, 2014
As far as pre-clearance goes, many airports facilitate this, mostly super-friendly countries with authentic special relationships with the United States.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:16 AM on June 16, 2014
posted by jsavimbi at 11:16 AM on June 16, 2014
Goody, I get to tell my Heathrow story!
When I was living in Ireland, I would fly home once a year to visit my folks, and somehow that invariably meant I was going to be flying through Heathrow. Anyone who's flown from Ireland through Heathrow knows that the Irish departures is in this tiny little bus depot of a wing way the hell away from everything, and you have to walk ages to get to the main terminal (seriously, it's like a ghetto. WTF, LHR)?
So, I arrive in Heathrow, dragging my bags and laptop case, and begin the long, arduous trek from the Irish wing to the international departures terminal. There were many checkpoints along the way, little security things you needed to walk though. Everyone making the trek was tried and grumpy from having to walk so far, and the employees of the airport were either hiding or pretending we weren't there. We seemed to walk through endless halls of renovations or drab greys.
Suddenly, I round a corner and am confronted with a little metal-detector security thing. The guard on duty is clearly from the Caribbean, and he has a little radio blasting Soca music as loud as he could. He's grooving like he's on a beach somewhere. Most people just roll their eyes and grit their teeth through yet another security check. Me, I start grooving with the music, and the guard is like, "yeah, man!". Brightened my day right up.
Awesome Heathrow security dude, thank you for making the security nonsense we all have to go through just that little bit more tolerable for this weary traveller.
posted by LN at 11:29 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
When I was living in Ireland, I would fly home once a year to visit my folks, and somehow that invariably meant I was going to be flying through Heathrow. Anyone who's flown from Ireland through Heathrow knows that the Irish departures is in this tiny little bus depot of a wing way the hell away from everything, and you have to walk ages to get to the main terminal (seriously, it's like a ghetto. WTF, LHR)?
So, I arrive in Heathrow, dragging my bags and laptop case, and begin the long, arduous trek from the Irish wing to the international departures terminal. There were many checkpoints along the way, little security things you needed to walk though. Everyone making the trek was tried and grumpy from having to walk so far, and the employees of the airport were either hiding or pretending we weren't there. We seemed to walk through endless halls of renovations or drab greys.
Suddenly, I round a corner and am confronted with a little metal-detector security thing. The guard on duty is clearly from the Caribbean, and he has a little radio blasting Soca music as loud as he could. He's grooving like he's on a beach somewhere. Most people just roll their eyes and grit their teeth through yet another security check. Me, I start grooving with the music, and the guard is like, "yeah, man!". Brightened my day right up.
Awesome Heathrow security dude, thank you for making the security nonsense we all have to go through just that little bit more tolerable for this weary traveller.
posted by LN at 11:29 AM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
True, though I hate being stuck at airports with nothing but a glorified canteen selling stale sandwiches and instant coffee.
Oh man, Heathrow Terminal 9 3/4, which is where United flies from, is the worst for this.
You enter the main terminal, walk past all the shops, enter a windowless, doorless, endless corridor, walk until you reach Gatwick airport and exit into what I'm pretty sure is a surplus East German border checkpoint waiting room.
From there, you have your choice of, well, nothing actually.
But, hey, free newspapers, so it's not all bad.
posted by madajb at 11:32 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
Oh man, Heathrow Terminal 9 3/4, which is where United flies from, is the worst for this.
You enter the main terminal, walk past all the shops, enter a windowless, doorless, endless corridor, walk until you reach Gatwick airport and exit into what I'm pretty sure is a surplus East German border checkpoint waiting room.
From there, you have your choice of, well, nothing actually.
But, hey, free newspapers, so it's not all bad.
posted by madajb at 11:32 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
We seemed to walk through endless halls of renovations or drab greys.
I call Heathrow "the Winchester Mystery Airport" since it seems to be a perpetual construction site. I've not been in a couple of years -- is it finished yet?
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 11:40 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
I call Heathrow "the Winchester Mystery Airport" since it seems to be a perpetual construction site. I've not been in a couple of years -- is it finished yet?
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 11:40 AM on June 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
As an American with Italian citizenship I can’t begin to tell you how pleasant it is travel through Heathrow or any European airport for that matter, compared to the US. Our last trip from Gatwick to Florence I kept my boots on through security and even struck up a friendly conversation about them with the security guard.
Even making my way through immigration with my wife, who has yet to get her Italian passport, is never longer than 10 minutes and we’re in baggage claim. Everyone is always cordial and if we’re just passing though for a connection they’ll say something to the affect of “Oh, that’s too bad. Wish you were visiting longer”.
Upon returning to the US, usually via SFO, we’ll spend 30 to 45 minutes in immigration and feel as if we’re being treated like prisoners. No friendly chatter, just hard eyes and skepticism. Flying between cities in the States isn’t much different.
posted by alamedarchy at 11:57 AM on June 16, 2014
Even making my way through immigration with my wife, who has yet to get her Italian passport, is never longer than 10 minutes and we’re in baggage claim. Everyone is always cordial and if we’re just passing though for a connection they’ll say something to the affect of “Oh, that’s too bad. Wish you were visiting longer”.
Upon returning to the US, usually via SFO, we’ll spend 30 to 45 minutes in immigration and feel as if we’re being treated like prisoners. No friendly chatter, just hard eyes and skepticism. Flying between cities in the States isn’t much different.
posted by alamedarchy at 11:57 AM on June 16, 2014
dabitch, that isn't preclearance you are referring to in Stockholm - simply the added level of pseudo-TSA security needed to satisfy regulators for flights entering the US. Preclearance refers to actually talking to US Customs and Border folk stationed overseas, allowing the arriving flight to land at a US domestic terminal.
posted by scolbath at 12:12 PM on June 16, 2014
posted by scolbath at 12:12 PM on June 16, 2014
Last time I went through Gatwick the nice lady let me through security with a pot of Hotel Chocolat pecan nut chocolate spread I had bought the night before on a whim, stuck in my coat pocket and forgotten about.
posted by biffa at 12:13 PM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 12:13 PM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
My experience has always been that there's a much sharper contrast between the EU/non-EU lines at British airports than the US/non-US lines in America.
For one, virtually all air travel in the UK is international, and the UK requires non-EU citizens to re-clear customs, even if they're just traveling within the EU. I've been on flights where I was the only non-EU citizen, and there was only one immigration agent working. Even though I was the first off of the plane, I was the last to clear Immigration, and the agents interrogated me rather thoroughly, given that they no longer had a queue to process.
The US process sucks, but the British aren't much better, from what I've seen. Their screening processes seemed much more invasive the last time I went through them.
posted by schmod at 12:48 PM on June 16, 2014
For one, virtually all air travel in the UK is international, and the UK requires non-EU citizens to re-clear customs, even if they're just traveling within the EU. I've been on flights where I was the only non-EU citizen, and there was only one immigration agent working. Even though I was the first off of the plane, I was the last to clear Immigration, and the agents interrogated me rather thoroughly, given that they no longer had a queue to process.
The US process sucks, but the British aren't much better, from what I've seen. Their screening processes seemed much more invasive the last time I went through them.
posted by schmod at 12:48 PM on June 16, 2014
For the last six years, I've flown Heathrow to Philly International at least once a year, to go visit family for the holidays, and may I just say that PHL is maybe the only place in the world to make Heathrow seem joyous and relaxed, and very nearly a pleasure to go through. That includes immigration. On my US passport.
(Yes, it's the size of a small city and the UNWASHED NON-EU MASSES wait line is a special hell, especially after a red-eye, but I've literally been threatened with calling the guards out in PHL because I started to walk past a totally unoccupied, unsigned desk. God, I hate Philly International.)
posted by kalimac at 12:50 PM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
(Yes, it's the size of a small city and the UNWASHED NON-EU MASSES wait line is a special hell, especially after a red-eye, but I've literally been threatened with calling the guards out in PHL because I started to walk past a totally unoccupied, unsigned desk. God, I hate Philly International.)
posted by kalimac at 12:50 PM on June 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
I was flying in and out of Heathrow weekly at one point. I have big love for the new observation tower, sadly only accessible at the KLM end of T4 but it has iPads with flight24! And binoculars!
posted by wingless_angel at 1:32 PM on June 16, 2014
posted by wingless_angel at 1:32 PM on June 16, 2014
LN and madajb will be pleased to hear that today United flies from the just-opened-last-week T2, and Aer Lingus is joining them in three weeks.
posted by genghis at 1:38 PM on June 16, 2014
posted by genghis at 1:38 PM on June 16, 2014
Only the Daily Fucking Fail would make this a story about the nasty foreigners taking away some nebulous bullshit title that they just manufactured. It really is a reprehensible rag for dickhead Little Englanders.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 1:40 PM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 1:40 PM on June 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
Heathrow at 6:45am when everyones flights from North America arrive at once is its own special kind of hell.
Although personally I think the international transfer lounge at Frankfurt is the worst place in any airport.
And yes as an American with Global Entry- I know I shouldn't be complaining about anything.
posted by JPD at 1:53 PM on June 16, 2014
Although personally I think the international transfer lounge at Frankfurt is the worst place in any airport.
And yes as an American with Global Entry- I know I shouldn't be complaining about anything.
posted by JPD at 1:53 PM on June 16, 2014
Ooooh. Thanks scolbath, in that case I've done pre-clearance in Toronto which was only minimally different from queueing up at some US airport to show immigration your fingerprints. Not sure what the "paid fast-track" pre-screening in Stockholm was about then. All I know is that some passengers paid extra to get frisked there. Takes all sorts doesn't it? ;9
posted by dabitch at 2:13 PM on June 16, 2014
posted by dabitch at 2:13 PM on June 16, 2014
UAL flies from T2, do they arrive at T2 also? Because that would kick ass.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:43 PM on June 16, 2014
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:43 PM on June 16, 2014
TSA is awful, and things are horribly overpriced at American airports ... but none of that makes up for the potential horrors of Heathrow.
And I do mean potential. I've transited where everything was normal. And I've transited where I felt like the whole experience was modeled on Children of Men. I've landed during transit strikes where it took five hours of hopscotching on buses to get to London. I've taken the bus to the airport and spent an hour looking for any signage telling me what gate to go to, or for any worker who might know (I finally had to catch a bus at an unmarked bus stop, and get off in what looked like a parking lot & then walk a kilometer through corridors to the actual terminal). And I've sat for hours in small crowded little rooms waiting for the gate to open.
Nothing in the US compares.
posted by kanewai at 3:26 PM on June 16, 2014
And I do mean potential. I've transited where everything was normal. And I've transited where I felt like the whole experience was modeled on Children of Men. I've landed during transit strikes where it took five hours of hopscotching on buses to get to London. I've taken the bus to the airport and spent an hour looking for any signage telling me what gate to go to, or for any worker who might know (I finally had to catch a bus at an unmarked bus stop, and get off in what looked like a parking lot & then walk a kilometer through corridors to the actual terminal). And I've sat for hours in small crowded little rooms waiting for the gate to open.
Nothing in the US compares.
posted by kanewai at 3:26 PM on June 16, 2014
4 years ago, just before Christmas, 4" of snow fell on Heathrow. It shutdown for more than a week. After being on one of the last planes from the US to land, I was stuck in London for 3 days before giving up on aviation and taking the train/boat back to Ireland. To date I've not been back, despite transiting Heathrow for the prior 20 years every Christmas. I hate the place, may it sink slowly into a bog.
posted by Long Way To Go at 8:54 PM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Long Way To Go at 8:54 PM on June 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I haven't flown out of Heathrow in... a long time.
On the one hand, it's a fascinating airport to depart from, because it is very much a gathering of the world in one place like all major international hubs, and there are so many stories cris-crossing. And more than many airports, the workforce is a reflection of previous generations of immigration to the UK. On the other hand, the terminal arrangement is a bit messy, and arrivals can be pretty miserable. It's similar to JFK in that regard.
At least it's not Gatwick.
posted by holgate at 9:35 PM on June 16, 2014
On the one hand, it's a fascinating airport to depart from, because it is very much a gathering of the world in one place like all major international hubs, and there are so many stories cris-crossing. And more than many airports, the workforce is a reflection of previous generations of immigration to the UK. On the other hand, the terminal arrangement is a bit messy, and arrivals can be pretty miserable. It's similar to JFK in that regard.
At least it's not Gatwick.
posted by holgate at 9:35 PM on June 16, 2014
The actual airport aside, the surrounding area(s) are worth a mention. Between 1973 and 1979, I grew up in Cranford, which was a sleepy village down the road from the airport. We were surrounded by parks and fields, as I (and our photo album) recall.
Here's a picture from 1928 looking west towards what is now the airport. The pins include the location of Hatton Cross station. While the picture was taken 50 years prior to my context, Google Maps today shows you the edges of the airport.
The expansion isn't just confined to the airport - the roads, hotels, associated infrastructure have turned the region for (square) miles around into little more than "Greater Heathrow" - ultra-noisy and poor (Read: immigrants. I was the only Indian in my school then, now, I imagine 99.9% are from South Asia).
posted by bookbook at 7:49 AM on June 17, 2014
Here's a picture from 1928 looking west towards what is now the airport. The pins include the location of Hatton Cross station. While the picture was taken 50 years prior to my context, Google Maps today shows you the edges of the airport.
The expansion isn't just confined to the airport - the roads, hotels, associated infrastructure have turned the region for (square) miles around into little more than "Greater Heathrow" - ultra-noisy and poor (Read: immigrants. I was the only Indian in my school then, now, I imagine 99.9% are from South Asia).
posted by bookbook at 7:49 AM on June 17, 2014
JoeZydeco - UAL flies from T2, do they arrive at T2 also? Because that would kick ass.
Judging by the arrivals board, it appears they do.
Looks pretty nice, hopefully they'll have most of the bugs worked out by the time I go through next year.
No observation deck in the brand new terminal though, that's kind of a poor show.
posted by madajb at 9:49 AM on June 17, 2014
Judging by the arrivals board, it appears they do.
Looks pretty nice, hopefully they'll have most of the bugs worked out by the time I go through next year.
No observation deck in the brand new terminal though, that's kind of a poor show.
posted by madajb at 9:49 AM on June 17, 2014
« Older We’re losing all our Strong Female Characters to... | The News Where You Are Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:32 AM on June 16, 2014 [5 favorites]