"Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn’t always do that"
June 25, 2014 9:09 AM Subscribe
Funny, he's using Robert Crumb's artwork without his permission.
posted by doctor_negative at 9:24 AM on June 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
posted by doctor_negative at 9:24 AM on June 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
Man, that's a terrible interface.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:28 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:28 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Wow, that's an impressive project. Thank flapjax at midnite.
posted by peacay at 9:28 AM on June 25, 2014
posted by peacay at 9:28 AM on June 25, 2014
he's using Robert Crumb's artwork without his permission
True, but with acknowledgment (see the "many apologies to R. Crumb" at the bottom)--and I don't think he's charging anyone to see the pages, is he?
posted by yoink at 9:29 AM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
True, but with acknowledgment (see the "many apologies to R. Crumb" at the bottom)--and I don't think he's charging anyone to see the pages, is he?
posted by yoink at 9:29 AM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
None of this is news (as Willard's site acknowledges), but it is very nicely done. Sadly, wholesale theft of old blues tunes with no thought of credit or passing on the proper publishing rights cash was Standard Operating Practice for most bands of Led Zep's era. Reminds me of what Muddy Waters once said of The Rolling Stones: "They stole my music, but they gave me my name".
posted by Paul Slade at 9:34 AM on June 25, 2014
posted by Paul Slade at 9:34 AM on June 25, 2014
Was just showing this to a co-worker and he said, "What did we do before the internet?" My reply was "Go down to the used record store and find some old Willie Dixon records to find out if that stuff we heard about Zeppelin stealing all their shit from him was true."
Really, that's we did kids.
I love the internet.
posted by marxchivist at 9:34 AM on June 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
Really, that's we did kids.
I love the internet.
posted by marxchivist at 9:34 AM on June 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
Yeah - the truth is I can't make myself feel like Led Zeppelin were Bad People because of this. It was part of the air they breathed, they were busy making wonderful things with what they stole, and I honestly think it just didn't occur to them as much as it should have.
However, I *love* to see credit finally be given. I do wish there had been more money given to these folks as well, but it seems a bit late for that. Just tracing back the threads though, and recognizing how rich a weave they form, is a real service.
Robert Plant has always struck me as an OK Guy, I wonder if he's said much about this sort of thing?
posted by freebird at 9:39 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
However, I *love* to see credit finally be given. I do wish there had been more money given to these folks as well, but it seems a bit late for that. Just tracing back the threads though, and recognizing how rich a weave they form, is a real service.
Robert Plant has always struck me as an OK Guy, I wonder if he's said much about this sort of thing?
posted by freebird at 9:39 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
wholesale theft of old blues tunes with no thought of credit or passing on the proper publishing rights cash was Standard Operating Practice for most bands of Led Zep's era
To be fair, it was Standard Operating Practice for most of the old blues singers too. It's just that the amounts being earned from royalties were so low that nobody really gave a damn. The blues was never a genre that placed a very high premium on original songwriting.
That's not to let Plant et al. off the hook--they were operating in a legal and artistic environment where A) there was a lot of money flowing around and B) the claim to be the "composer" of a particular song was freighted with a great deal of significance.
And I don't think it's true, actually, that "most" bands of Led Zep's era were as cavalier about this as Zep was. The Stones were by and large pretty scrupulous about crediting the original writers of the many R&B songs they performed, for example. Led Zeppelin really were egregiously bad about this stuff.
posted by yoink at 9:44 AM on June 25, 2014 [8 favorites]
To be fair, it was Standard Operating Practice for most of the old blues singers too. It's just that the amounts being earned from royalties were so low that nobody really gave a damn. The blues was never a genre that placed a very high premium on original songwriting.
That's not to let Plant et al. off the hook--they were operating in a legal and artistic environment where A) there was a lot of money flowing around and B) the claim to be the "composer" of a particular song was freighted with a great deal of significance.
And I don't think it's true, actually, that "most" bands of Led Zep's era were as cavalier about this as Zep was. The Stones were by and large pretty scrupulous about crediting the original writers of the many R&B songs they performed, for example. Led Zeppelin really were egregiously bad about this stuff.
posted by yoink at 9:44 AM on June 25, 2014 [8 favorites]
The guy who should really be complaining about getting ripped off is the radio DJ who first uttered the phrase "Time to get the Led out!" while launching into a block of Zeppelin songs.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:56 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:56 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
I noticed something years ago about "How Many More Times" that wasn't mentioned here. The Yardbirds had played the Sonny Boy Williamson song "Smokestack Lightning" from their earliest days. But if you listen to the later Jeff Beck era version done on the BBC Sessions album the bassline had mutated into the familiar version heard on Zeppelin's "How Many More Times". So Zeppelin not only ripped off old blues guys, but ripped off Yardbirds bassist Paul Samwell-Smith as well.
posted by cropshy at 9:56 AM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by cropshy at 9:56 AM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
True, but with acknowledgment (see the "many apologies to R. Crumb" at the bottom)--and I don't think he's charging anyone to see the pages, is he?
Which means dick to copyright.
This is like all the songs posted on YouTube that says, "No copyright infringement intended. I don't own the rights to this music." That doesn't cover you.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:09 AM on June 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
Which means dick to copyright.
This is like all the songs posted on YouTube that says, "No copyright infringement intended. I don't own the rights to this music." That doesn't cover you.
posted by cjorgensen at 10:09 AM on June 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
Hell of a cover band though.
posted by gwint at 10:11 AM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by gwint at 10:11 AM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Part of the problem is that when Plant did write his own lyrics, he tended to fall back on weird-ass Tolkien references, so all in all it was better to just lift wholesale from the blues.
posted by Curious Artificer at 10:49 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Curious Artificer at 10:49 AM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
In the last zeppelin ripoff thread somebody had a quote from Plant saying something to the effect of everybody does this but when you are successful people make a big deal out of it.
posted by bukvich at 11:37 AM on June 25, 2014
posted by bukvich at 11:37 AM on June 25, 2014
It's not the borrowing that's the issue, it's the claiming of writing credit. Who does Jimmy Page think he is? The Carter Family?
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:48 AM on June 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:48 AM on June 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
So Zeppelin not only ripped off old blues guys, but ripped off Yardbirds bassist Paul Samwell-Smith as well.
According to the Wikipedia page for BBC Sessions, it actually was Page who played bass on the Yardbirds' "Smokestack Lightning," not Samwell-Smith.
posted by ogooglebar at 12:01 PM on June 25, 2014
According to the Wikipedia page for BBC Sessions, it actually was Page who played bass on the Yardbirds' "Smokestack Lightning," not Samwell-Smith.
posted by ogooglebar at 12:01 PM on June 25, 2014
In the last zeppelin ripoff thread somebody had a quote from Plant saying something to the effect of everybody does this but when you are successful people make a big deal out of it.
That's the whole issue. I'm sure Plant is a nice guy, but he's also a very wealthy nice guy - so some of the money should have gone to the (also probably nice) guys who (unwittingly) co-wrote these songs.
posted by colie at 12:04 PM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
That's the whole issue. I'm sure Plant is a nice guy, but he's also a very wealthy nice guy - so some of the money should have gone to the (also probably nice) guys who (unwittingly) co-wrote these songs.
posted by colie at 12:04 PM on June 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
According to the Wikipedia page for BBC Sessions, it actually was Page who played bass on the Yardbirds' "Smokestack Lightning," not Samwell-Smith.
Nevermind. Carry on then.
posted by cropshy at 12:27 PM on June 25, 2014
Nevermind. Carry on then.
posted by cropshy at 12:27 PM on June 25, 2014
You need Kool-Aid
Baby, I've got Kool-Aid
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:59 PM on June 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
Baby, I've got Kool-Aid
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:59 PM on June 25, 2014 [3 favorites]
Crumb's co-author is raising objection in the comment section.
posted by maggieb at 3:45 PM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by maggieb at 3:45 PM on June 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
At what point would Aereo have made more money stealing IP than Led Zeppelin has? Just askin'.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:16 PM on June 25, 2014
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:16 PM on June 25, 2014
Talk about not understanding theft and credits: BOB CRUMB MUST BE PAID FOR THIS PIECE OF INTERNET EPHEMERA THAT IS MADE FOR ZERO PROFIT!
This is very similar to folks who scream censorship when they have zero understanding of the word.
posted by basicchannel at 5:11 PM on June 25, 2014
This is very similar to folks who scream censorship when they have zero understanding of the word.
posted by basicchannel at 5:11 PM on June 25, 2014
Robert Plant has always struck me as an OK Guy, I wonder if he's said much about this sort of thing?
Here's what he said (sorry, jpg) after losing a lawsuit filed by Willie Dixon.
posted by ignignokt at 5:48 PM on June 25, 2014
Here's what he said (sorry, jpg) after losing a lawsuit filed by Willie Dixon.
posted by ignignokt at 5:48 PM on June 25, 2014
Lousy interface. Some of these are on these albums (Spotify links):
Roots Of Led Zeppelin
The Roots of Led Zeppelin
posted by milnak at 5:50 PM on June 25, 2014
Roots Of Led Zeppelin
The Roots of Led Zeppelin
posted by milnak at 5:50 PM on June 25, 2014
It's really all Plant's fault and not the other three. He really should have come up with some vocal lines and lyric concepts of his own.
By contrast, Cream did it right with Lawdy Mama which started off as a cover, had lots of creativity added to its guitars and drums as per Zep, but then had its vocals completely transformed into Strange Brew and a new set of psychedelic ideas in the words.
posted by colie at 2:50 AM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
By contrast, Cream did it right with Lawdy Mama which started off as a cover, had lots of creativity added to its guitars and drums as per Zep, but then had its vocals completely transformed into Strange Brew and a new set of psychedelic ideas in the words.
posted by colie at 2:50 AM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
To be fair, it was Standard Operating Practice for most of the old blues singers too.
Sonny Boy Williamson II stole his name from the earlier Sonny Boy Williamson.
posted by e1c at 8:17 AM on June 26, 2014
Sonny Boy Williamson II stole his name from the earlier Sonny Boy Williamson.
posted by e1c at 8:17 AM on June 26, 2014
The difference between the old blues musicians and Led Zeppelin is that there was no money to be had in the old blues guys' day - either for the original composers or the performers who borrowed their stuff. In those days, you really could argue it was simply the folk process at work.
In Led Zeppelin's case, there was a great deal of money involved, and nothing to stop Plant, Page & co passing some of that cash to the musicians they purported to love. I always thought Robert Plant was a pretty good guy too, but his comment quoted by ignignokt above really boils down to: "Fuck it - sue me". Which isn't good enough.
Publishing rights (as embodied by the official composers' credit on every song) matter, because that's where the money is. And even if the original composers in question were dead, don't you think they'd have rather seen the fruits of their work go to their own families rather some white boy they'd never heard of?
Maybe Led Zeppelin were too tied up with their delightfully absurd lifestyle to worry about this stuff in the 1970s, but it's still worth asking which, if any, of these credits have been put right on the many, many generations of Page-supervised Led Zeppelin reissues. I don't know the answer to that question, but I'd be interested to hear from someone who does.
It's a shame Mojo's current multi-issue tribute to Led Zeppelin hasn't got the balls to ask a few difficult questions about this. It's only because of mags like Creem and NME in the glory days of rock journalism that we know about this issue at all, but today's rock mags fear such awkward questions would endanger their all-important access to the the stars.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:55 PM on June 26, 2014
In Led Zeppelin's case, there was a great deal of money involved, and nothing to stop Plant, Page & co passing some of that cash to the musicians they purported to love. I always thought Robert Plant was a pretty good guy too, but his comment quoted by ignignokt above really boils down to: "Fuck it - sue me". Which isn't good enough.
Publishing rights (as embodied by the official composers' credit on every song) matter, because that's where the money is. And even if the original composers in question were dead, don't you think they'd have rather seen the fruits of their work go to their own families rather some white boy they'd never heard of?
Maybe Led Zeppelin were too tied up with their delightfully absurd lifestyle to worry about this stuff in the 1970s, but it's still worth asking which, if any, of these credits have been put right on the many, many generations of Page-supervised Led Zeppelin reissues. I don't know the answer to that question, but I'd be interested to hear from someone who does.
It's a shame Mojo's current multi-issue tribute to Led Zeppelin hasn't got the balls to ask a few difficult questions about this. It's only because of mags like Creem and NME in the glory days of rock journalism that we know about this issue at all, but today's rock mags fear such awkward questions would endanger their all-important access to the the stars.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:55 PM on June 26, 2014
Clapton was worse in those days.
posted by spitbull at 7:58 PM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by spitbull at 7:58 PM on June 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by marxchivist at 9:16 AM on June 25, 2014