we’re not going to see that on tv
July 15, 2014 3:47 AM Subscribe
In an interview during the Television Critics Association’s press tour on Sunday, Daniel Cerone, executive producer of NBC's Constantine, has revealed that there are no plans for John Constantine to be bisexual in the upcoming series. While Constantine's sexuality may come as a surprise for many casual DC fans, it has been a more-or-less stated fact throughout his canon. Many LGBTQ comics readers consider Constantine to be an important and iconic bisexual character and were hoping for a better result.
I dunno. I'm not going to watch a show that considers visible representation of a bisexual character less important than the fact that he's blond. But YMMV.
posted by fight or flight at 3:58 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 3:58 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
So this Constantine doesn't smoke and isn't bi?
He's starting to sound a lot like the British Winchester. A cousin maybe?
posted by anotherpanacea at 4:06 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
He's starting to sound a lot like the British Winchester. A cousin maybe?
posted by anotherpanacea at 4:06 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
So understand I think it'd be fine if they did make Constantine bisexual -- positive and important and really cool, for all that -- but the argument that he should be because it's canon is kind of iffy to me. This character has been around for thirty years, and unless I'm mistaken, his bisexuality can be traced to one story from over a decade ago, which wasn't really referred to by subsequent creative teams. Not mentioning this doesn't seem like a huge betrayal of the character. Should they make Constantine bi? Hell yeah, why not? But it's a real stretch to consider it a core component of his comic book depiction, I think.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:07 AM on July 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:07 AM on July 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
I'm amazed they've even allowed him to remain British.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:08 AM on July 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 4:08 AM on July 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
I keep hearing things about this series and almost none of them are reassuring.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:15 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:15 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
> "... it's a real stretch to consider it a core component of his comic book depiction, I think."
This is true, but I'm still angry about Mystique, and this doesn't help.
posted by kyrademon at 4:35 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
This is true, but I'm still angry about Mystique, and this doesn't help.
posted by kyrademon at 4:35 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
But it's a real stretch to consider it a core component of his comic book depiction, I think.
Sure, there's always a decent-ish reason to make a character straight (and cis and white and male), but when you have a decent-ish reason not to, it's a little disappointing that they actively didn't bother.
posted by Etrigan at 4:47 AM on July 15, 2014 [38 favorites]
Sure, there's always a decent-ish reason to make a character straight (and cis and white and male), but when you have a decent-ish reason not to, it's a little disappointing that they actively didn't bother.
posted by Etrigan at 4:47 AM on July 15, 2014 [38 favorites]
He's not Keanu Reeves this time. Baby steps.
posted by delfin at 4:48 AM on July 15, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by delfin at 4:48 AM on July 15, 2014 [12 favorites]
> This character has been around for thirty years, and unless I'm mistaken, his bisexuality can be traced to one story from over a decade ago, which wasn't really referred to by subsequent creative teams.
I was reading the Hellblazer series for a while in the late 80s. While his sexuality was never specifically addressed, I recall the stories kept it as ambiguous as many other aspects of his personality, such as his moral code and professional relationships.
Times being what they were, in the eighties. It's thirty years later now; this is easier to be more overt about in comics since popular opinion finally seems to have accepted that comic books are allowed to handle adult themes. Broadcast TV, I'm not so sure. Standards and Practices has grey areas that people love rules-lawyering to their advantage (that's why Constantine, who should never be drawn without a smoke, is unlikely to wield even an e-cig onscreen). Maybe there's a genuine risk that NBC would willingly sacrifice a second-tier series to stay on the right side of the advertisers in any bible-belt uproar. Though I wish NBC would dare to stand up for this.
posted by ardgedee at 4:51 AM on July 15, 2014
I was reading the Hellblazer series for a while in the late 80s. While his sexuality was never specifically addressed, I recall the stories kept it as ambiguous as many other aspects of his personality, such as his moral code and professional relationships.
Times being what they were, in the eighties. It's thirty years later now; this is easier to be more overt about in comics since popular opinion finally seems to have accepted that comic books are allowed to handle adult themes. Broadcast TV, I'm not so sure. Standards and Practices has grey areas that people love rules-lawyering to their advantage (that's why Constantine, who should never be drawn without a smoke, is unlikely to wield even an e-cig onscreen). Maybe there's a genuine risk that NBC would willingly sacrifice a second-tier series to stay on the right side of the advertisers in any bible-belt uproar. Though I wish NBC would dare to stand up for this.
posted by ardgedee at 4:51 AM on July 15, 2014
How is Hannibal less scary to advertisers than bisexuals? I mean, seriously.
posted by dinty_moore at 4:54 AM on July 15, 2014 [32 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 4:54 AM on July 15, 2014 [32 favorites]
I keep hearing things about this series and almost none of them are reassuring
Yeah, same here. I wasn't blown away by the trailer like a bunch of other folks were. These days, DC's TV--much like Marvel's movies--seems to work much better when it stays entirely in-house. I mean, The Flash could always disappoint, but Arrow is enjoyable and getting moreso with every episode. And in contrast to Constantine (and Gotham to a lesser extent), everything I hear about The Flash seems to make it better: Tom Cavanagh! Awesome effects! Firestorm!
Maybe there's a genuine risk that NBC would willingly sacrifice a second-tier series to stay on the right side of the advertisers in any bible-belt uproar. Though I wish NBC would dare to stand up for this.
The comic and the character himself were largely unrepentant about his vices, habits, and strong opinions unless it made for good story. IMO they shouldn't have bothered trying to bring it to TV if they had to drop a lot of what defined the character. I know that bringing comics to premium cable seems to be a losing proposition (Preacher is still in development hell), but I feel like the producers didn't even try for basic cable like The Walking Dead. That would have freed them up quite a bit.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:59 AM on July 15, 2014
Yeah, same here. I wasn't blown away by the trailer like a bunch of other folks were. These days, DC's TV--much like Marvel's movies--seems to work much better when it stays entirely in-house. I mean, The Flash could always disappoint, but Arrow is enjoyable and getting moreso with every episode. And in contrast to Constantine (and Gotham to a lesser extent), everything I hear about The Flash seems to make it better: Tom Cavanagh! Awesome effects! Firestorm!
Maybe there's a genuine risk that NBC would willingly sacrifice a second-tier series to stay on the right side of the advertisers in any bible-belt uproar. Though I wish NBC would dare to stand up for this.
The comic and the character himself were largely unrepentant about his vices, habits, and strong opinions unless it made for good story. IMO they shouldn't have bothered trying to bring it to TV if they had to drop a lot of what defined the character. I know that bringing comics to premium cable seems to be a losing proposition (Preacher is still in development hell), but I feel like the producers didn't even try for basic cable like The Walking Dead. That would have freed them up quite a bit.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:59 AM on July 15, 2014
I read Hellblazer in the '90s and never got a whiff of the character being bisexual. It was doing that period where he had the long relationship with Kit, who eventually dumped him. Interesting like nugget that he was bi.
As to the show, I'm starting to wish that HBO or Bravo picked up the show, because the trailer didn't look that great, he's forbidden from smoking and now this. A watered down John Constantine doesn't sound like fun at all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:04 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
As to the show, I'm starting to wish that HBO or Bravo picked up the show, because the trailer didn't look that great, he's forbidden from smoking and now this. A watered down John Constantine doesn't sound like fun at all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:04 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
dinty_moore: "How is Hannibal less scary to advertisers than bisexuals? I mean, seriously."
Violence has always been more acceptable than any kind of sexuality on TV (or at least American TV). Plus, Hannibal is marketed to adults and I'm guessing that TV execs still think that comic books are for kids.
posted by octothorpe at 5:07 AM on July 15, 2014
Violence has always been more acceptable than any kind of sexuality on TV (or at least American TV). Plus, Hannibal is marketed to adults and I'm guessing that TV execs still think that comic books are for kids.
posted by octothorpe at 5:07 AM on July 15, 2014
I've read a good chunk of, certainly not all of, Hellblazer run. I've never ready the storyline(s?) where he is bisexual. But having read that he is, it instantly made perfect sense to me with the character as I know him, and I would have been really excited to see him portrayed as such on TV. Not that I'm unbiased here, as a bisexual person who could use some more representation on TV, but it would have been of the good and I'm sad it's not in the cards at the moment.
I really like this character and this world. I wish the bar would raise just a little bit higher than "at least it's not Keanu." Sigh.
posted by Stacey at 5:10 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I really like this character and this world. I wish the bar would raise just a little bit higher than "at least it's not Keanu." Sigh.
posted by Stacey at 5:10 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I know that bringing comics to premium cable seems to be a losing proposition (Preacher is still in development hell)
I actually just reread Preacher the other week, and I have no fucking idea who thought AMC was a good home for it. That book's got HBO written on it in every panel.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:12 AM on July 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
I actually just reread Preacher the other week, and I have no fucking idea who thought AMC was a good home for it. That book's got HBO written on it in every panel.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:12 AM on July 15, 2014 [8 favorites]
> I know that bringing comics to premium cable seems to be a losing proposition (Preacher is still in development hell), but I feel like the producers didn't even try for basic cable like The Walking Dead.
Yeah, I think that's the essence of the problem. The comic books' John Constantine had swearing, smoking, and satanism, but the best stories in Hellblazer managed at times to imply more than they showed. They're such an essential part of his character that taking them out to put him on TV is like replacing Superman's spandex tights and cape with an Adidas tracksuit that has "SUPERMAN" spelled out on the back in football jersey style letters.
Of all the characters to put on broadcast TV rather than HBO, Constantine is a really odd choice.
posted by ardgedee at 5:12 AM on July 15, 2014
Yeah, I think that's the essence of the problem. The comic books' John Constantine had swearing, smoking, and satanism, but the best stories in Hellblazer managed at times to imply more than they showed. They're such an essential part of his character that taking them out to put him on TV is like replacing Superman's spandex tights and cape with an Adidas tracksuit that has "SUPERMAN" spelled out on the back in football jersey style letters.
Of all the characters to put on broadcast TV rather than HBO, Constantine is a really odd choice.
posted by ardgedee at 5:12 AM on July 15, 2014
The idea of a Hellblazer marketed towards kids is either the worst or best idea and I can't figure out which.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:14 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 5:14 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
The revolution will not be televised.
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:18 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:18 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
Also, John Constantine will no longer have been involved in the punk scene.
Instead, he was raised in Kent, and starred as Frederic in a well-received community theatre production of The Pirates of Penzance.
He still occasionally appears in local pantos at Christmastime, as the front end of the horse.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:27 AM on July 15, 2014 [14 favorites]
Instead, he was raised in Kent, and starred as Frederic in a well-received community theatre production of The Pirates of Penzance.
He still occasionally appears in local pantos at Christmastime, as the front end of the horse.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:27 AM on July 15, 2014 [14 favorites]
I've watched the pilot, and its a good start. The actor captures Constantine's personality pretty well, and his moral ambiguity. They worked Newcastle into it, and they even show him at a bar, stubbing out a cigarette.
I've gone back and forth with a lot of Constantine doomsayers who argue that smoking is integral to the character, and his bisexuality is part of what makes him Constantine. But really, any character trait can be changed, as long as you capture in other ways what it says about the character. Sure, it'd be cool if bisexuality or smoking weren't out-and-out taboo on public television. But John Constantine is a self-absorbed a-hole. I can't imagine many causes that would want him as a poster child.
The best argument for his smoking or bisexuality is that this is a death of 1000 cuts. Either character trait isn't integral, but subtract enough small details and they add up to a big chunk of personality. I'm hoping as the series progresses (if it progresses) they find other ways to fill in the character. But this, at least, is a good start.
posted by eisenkrote at 5:35 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've gone back and forth with a lot of Constantine doomsayers who argue that smoking is integral to the character, and his bisexuality is part of what makes him Constantine. But really, any character trait can be changed, as long as you capture in other ways what it says about the character. Sure, it'd be cool if bisexuality or smoking weren't out-and-out taboo on public television. But John Constantine is a self-absorbed a-hole. I can't imagine many causes that would want him as a poster child.
The best argument for his smoking or bisexuality is that this is a death of 1000 cuts. Either character trait isn't integral, but subtract enough small details and they add up to a big chunk of personality. I'm hoping as the series progresses (if it progresses) they find other ways to fill in the character. But this, at least, is a good start.
posted by eisenkrote at 5:35 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Instead, he was raised in Kent, and starred as Frederic in a well-received community theatre production of The Pirates of Penzance.
Stop it. There is only so much terror I can take.
posted by maxsparber at 5:39 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Stop it. There is only so much terror I can take.
posted by maxsparber at 5:39 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't really know anything about Hellblazer, but openly bisexual Captain Jack Harkness is one of my favorite characters of all time. And I'm pretty sure his popularity is the reason Torchwood got created.
posted by antinomia at 5:52 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by antinomia at 5:52 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
If what they find too freaky for TV about John Constantine is the smoking and bisexuality, I have no confidence in their ability to handle the rest of it. Is he going to bargain with demons holding a bible next?
posted by bile and syntax at 5:56 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 5:56 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Just have Constantine say in the first season, as a throwaway line, "I dated a guy like that once. It didn't work out well for anybody - but then again, they never do."
There, done. True to the character and his history so we can get back to the core concept of "jerk who summons/exorcises demons has adventures" and maybe call back to that later on when/if audiences accept the core.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:58 AM on July 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
There, done. True to the character and his history so we can get back to the core concept of "jerk who summons/exorcises demons has adventures" and maybe call back to that later on when/if audiences accept the core.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:58 AM on July 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
Sure, it'd be cool if bisexuality or smoking weren't out-and-out taboo on public television.
Not if it's hot sexy lady bisexuality!
Note that Black Canary is not bisexual in canon, but she can kiss another woman in Arrow and nobody raises a stink about whether or not her sexuality is a "core" part of her character. But when we're talking about bisexual representation that doesn't directly address/arouse the supposed young straight male viewership, it's suddenly "not important" enough to fight for.
posted by fight or flight at 6:02 AM on July 15, 2014 [21 favorites]
Not if it's hot sexy lady bisexuality!
Note that Black Canary is not bisexual in canon, but she can kiss another woman in Arrow and nobody raises a stink about whether or not her sexuality is a "core" part of her character. But when we're talking about bisexual representation that doesn't directly address/arouse the supposed young straight male viewership, it's suddenly "not important" enough to fight for.
posted by fight or flight at 6:02 AM on July 15, 2014 [21 favorites]
I don't know. I'm all for bisexual visibility, but the smoking thing was a bigger part of Constantine's character than his sexuality or his Britishness or hair color.
I suppose they're going to change his lung cancer to a random brain tumor or something.
posted by Foosnark at 6:21 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
I suppose they're going to change his lung cancer to a random brain tumor or something.
posted by Foosnark at 6:21 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, John Constantine will no longer have been involved in the punk scene.
He looks mid-30's, so he could've easily been involved in the punk scene. The 90's punk scene.
Mucous Membrance was this close to getting signed by Epitaph.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:22 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
He looks mid-30's, so he could've easily been involved in the punk scene. The 90's punk scene.
Mucous Membrance was this close to getting signed by Epitaph.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:22 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have never read a Hellblazer comic and I knew that he was bisexual. Because like many other commenters here, I am a bisexual desperate for bisexual representation in media. It may not be a wildly important aspect of the character--it's great when sexuality isn't!--but it's wildly important to me that the very few bisexual characters we have don't get erased.
posted by chaiminda at 6:24 AM on July 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 6:24 AM on July 15, 2014 [9 favorites]
He's still a smoker. The question is whether you watch him actively smoking or watch him handle/put out cigarettes. They said clearly at that session, which I was at, that he's still a smoker.
posted by Linda_Holmes at 6:33 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Linda_Holmes at 6:33 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
But when we're talking about bisexual representation that doesn't directly address/arouse the supposed young straight male viewership, it's suddenly "not important" enough to fight for.
There are examples out there. Battlestar Galactica, Six Feet Under, Penny Dreadful, Game of Thrones, House of Cards, and the aforementioned Captain Jack of Torchwood and Doctor Who.
Is that a reasonable representation? Its definitely a mixed bag. But I'd rather see a positive bisexual role model. And John Constantine definitely isn't it. He's a bastard who uses his friends. And I can't imagine the bisexual community will be thrilled to have as their representation a bisexual character who is literally doomed to hell.
posted by eisenkrote at 6:34 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
There are examples out there. Battlestar Galactica, Six Feet Under, Penny Dreadful, Game of Thrones, House of Cards, and the aforementioned Captain Jack of Torchwood and Doctor Who.
Is that a reasonable representation? Its definitely a mixed bag. But I'd rather see a positive bisexual role model. And John Constantine definitely isn't it. He's a bastard who uses his friends. And I can't imagine the bisexual community will be thrilled to have as their representation a bisexual character who is literally doomed to hell.
posted by eisenkrote at 6:34 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, how is James Marsters not playing this version of Constantine? I mean, COME ON!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:34 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:34 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
He doesn't sound like he's still a scouser either. God knows they could do with some positive role models.
posted by biffa at 6:37 AM on July 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by biffa at 6:37 AM on July 15, 2014 [7 favorites]
Is that a reasonable representation?
Well, none of those are network shows, for one thing.
posted by griphus at 6:42 AM on July 15, 2014
Well, none of those are network shows, for one thing.
posted by griphus at 6:42 AM on July 15, 2014
But I'd rather see a positive bisexual role model. And John Constantine definitely isn't it. He's a bastard who uses his friends. And I can't imagine the bisexual community will be thrilled to have as their representation a bisexual character who is literally doomed to hell.
i can't speak for the community but what i want is for bisexuality to not be treated as something that has to be hidden or written out or not important enough to keep. i'm not looking for media representation that always shows bisexuals in a positive light, but representation of just another thing that people can be.
posted by nadawi at 6:44 AM on July 15, 2014 [26 favorites]
i can't speak for the community but what i want is for bisexuality to not be treated as something that has to be hidden or written out or not important enough to keep. i'm not looking for media representation that always shows bisexuals in a positive light, but representation of just another thing that people can be.
posted by nadawi at 6:44 AM on July 15, 2014 [26 favorites]
It has been a long time since I read the series but I dont remember Constantine having much of a sexual component. Smoking otoh is like every frame, every story.
posted by humanfont at 6:45 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 6:45 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
There are examples out there.
Admittedly, I'm coming from this from the POV of someone who is invested in bi representation in comic books primarily, where examples of bi characters, positive or negative, are few and far between (look who is sitting smug at the top of that list, heh).
But I'd rather see a positive bisexual role model.
Agreed. I'm not a fan of the whole bisexuality = "deviant" character trope (which you see in people like Captain Jack "fucks anything that moves" Harkness). But with Constantine, I was looking forward to at least having a bisexual lead character who achieves something other than just being a poster boy for his sexuality. I wanted a bi character whose storyline isn't about being bi, but about being a chain smoking hard drinking demon hunting bastard who uses his friends. Who happens to be bi. But now we won't even get that.
posted by fight or flight at 6:49 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
Admittedly, I'm coming from this from the POV of someone who is invested in bi representation in comic books primarily, where examples of bi characters, positive or negative, are few and far between (look who is sitting smug at the top of that list, heh).
But I'd rather see a positive bisexual role model.
Agreed. I'm not a fan of the whole bisexuality = "deviant" character trope (which you see in people like Captain Jack "fucks anything that moves" Harkness). But with Constantine, I was looking forward to at least having a bisexual lead character who achieves something other than just being a poster boy for his sexuality. I wanted a bi character whose storyline isn't about being bi, but about being a chain smoking hard drinking demon hunting bastard who uses his friends. Who happens to be bi. But now we won't even get that.
posted by fight or flight at 6:49 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
Without the devastations from standard tropes, Constantine is just another squinty, square-jawed grim middle-aged detectiv-- oooooooh.
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think Jack Harkness might be better described as omnisexual.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:02 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:02 AM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
The thing that makes me scratch my head over this is that they don't seem to understand the amazing squee factor they'll get out of fans who love this sort of thing. Torchwood basically lived and breathed because of Captain Jack's pansexuality, and the idea that producers don't appreciate how much fans would embrace this is a sad commentary, indeed.
posted by xingcat at 7:15 AM on July 15, 2014
posted by xingcat at 7:15 AM on July 15, 2014
eisenkrote: And I can't imagine the bisexual community will be thrilled to have as their representation a bisexual character who is literally doomed to hell.
Well, he's an anti-hero. Much of his "doomed to hell" bit is because he's a theological anarchist, where many story arcs involve double-crossing both demons and angels in their plans to subjugate humanity. He's a complex political anarchist punk as well, thumbing his nose at Thatcherite approaches to homelessness, culture, and homosexuality, counting openly gay, lesbian, and kinky characters as part of his extended "crew" at a time when mainstream titles were avoiding the issue. He's morally grey because a key part of the British Invasion involved stories with consequences where Superman can't restore the status quo by beating Lex, destroying the missiles, and rescuing Lois through last-act handwavium.
Would I object to bi Steve Rogers (a new Kirk/Spock-style fan queering)? Probably not. But what I want to read and watch are complex and multifaceted characters who are flawed, in the full spectrum of roles from boy-scout heroes to jucy multilayered villainy, including hardboiled tricksters like John Constantine who can't do a good deed without collateral damage. One of the better bisexual characters I read last year was Jemisin's Sieh, who's a murderous god-child in a dark fantasy who, nevertheless, was fun to read, and has character growth over the course of the novel.
Especially since I just wrapped up the second season of Orphan Black, a show where, except for an early Delphine scene, none of the characters are remotely self-conscious about their sexual or gender identity.
humanfont: It has been a long time since I read the series but I dont remember Constantine having much of a sexual component. Smoking otoh is like every frame, every story.
A fair number of early plots involved current or ex-lovers who are betrayed in various ways. There's a moment of wink-wink between John and Zatana in his Swamp Thing arc, and one of his early story arcs conclude with John re-deflowering a cult's virgin Mary and loaning his body so that Swamp Thing can conceive a human-elemental love child. I think my least favorite Hellblazer plot line was Son of Man, which is an entire story arc about penises.
But adaptations are adaptations. I'm more annoyed that this is a sign that show writers are playing it safe with a comic that included demon yuppies from hell, that it's going to be generic horror/detective TV plot.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:16 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
Well, he's an anti-hero. Much of his "doomed to hell" bit is because he's a theological anarchist, where many story arcs involve double-crossing both demons and angels in their plans to subjugate humanity. He's a complex political anarchist punk as well, thumbing his nose at Thatcherite approaches to homelessness, culture, and homosexuality, counting openly gay, lesbian, and kinky characters as part of his extended "crew" at a time when mainstream titles were avoiding the issue. He's morally grey because a key part of the British Invasion involved stories with consequences where Superman can't restore the status quo by beating Lex, destroying the missiles, and rescuing Lois through last-act handwavium.
Would I object to bi Steve Rogers (a new Kirk/Spock-style fan queering)? Probably not. But what I want to read and watch are complex and multifaceted characters who are flawed, in the full spectrum of roles from boy-scout heroes to jucy multilayered villainy, including hardboiled tricksters like John Constantine who can't do a good deed without collateral damage. One of the better bisexual characters I read last year was Jemisin's Sieh, who's a murderous god-child in a dark fantasy who, nevertheless, was fun to read, and has character growth over the course of the novel.
Especially since I just wrapped up the second season of Orphan Black, a show where, except for an early Delphine scene, none of the characters are remotely self-conscious about their sexual or gender identity.
humanfont: It has been a long time since I read the series but I dont remember Constantine having much of a sexual component. Smoking otoh is like every frame, every story.
A fair number of early plots involved current or ex-lovers who are betrayed in various ways. There's a moment of wink-wink between John and Zatana in his Swamp Thing arc, and one of his early story arcs conclude with John re-deflowering a cult's virgin Mary and loaning his body so that Swamp Thing can conceive a human-elemental love child. I think my least favorite Hellblazer plot line was Son of Man, which is an entire story arc about penises.
But adaptations are adaptations. I'm more annoyed that this is a sign that show writers are playing it safe with a comic that included demon yuppies from hell, that it's going to be generic horror/detective TV plot.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:16 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm not familiar with the comic book or movie, but I can think of so few portrayals of bisexuality in popular culture that for a long time I didn't even think bisexuality existed outside of my household.
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:17 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:17 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
The thing that makes me scratch my head over this is that they don't seem to understand the amazing squee factor they'll get out of fans who love this sort of thing.
Three critically acclaimed shows have featured bisexual characters this year (although using the bi-word seems like an inexplicable barrier). Of course, they're all cable/netflix.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:17 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Three critically acclaimed shows have featured bisexual characters this year (although using the bi-word seems like an inexplicable barrier). Of course, they're all cable/netflix.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:17 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm curious how one would do Dangerous Habits without smoking. Kicking addiction (and relapsing) is a pretty important part of the Constantine tale.
Please tell me that he's going to be hooked on heroin at least once.
posted by bonehead at 7:50 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Please tell me that he's going to be hooked on heroin at least once.
posted by bonehead at 7:50 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
It has been a long time since I read the series but I dont remember Constantine having much of a sexual component.
There's always Alan Moore's Twilight of the Superheroes proposal, in which Earth would in effect be saved by John Constantine cockblocking himself.
Which isn't even the most tweaked sexuality-related thing in that proposal, but, well, Alan Moore.
posted by delfin at 7:55 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
There's always Alan Moore's Twilight of the Superheroes proposal, in which Earth would in effect be saved by John Constantine cockblocking himself.
Which isn't even the most tweaked sexuality-related thing in that proposal, but, well, Alan Moore.
posted by delfin at 7:55 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
I understand this Constantine is also very pro monarchy and supports the current prime minister.
posted by happyroach at 7:55 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 7:55 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
I understand this Constantine is also very pro monarchy and supports the current prime minister.
DON'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT IT
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:57 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
DON'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT IT
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:57 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
I'm not familiar with the comic book or movie, but I can think of so few portrayals of bisexuality in popular culture that for a long time I didn't even think bisexuality existed outside of my household.
Definitly look around the web for scenes from Season 4 of Game of Thrones that contain Oberyn Martell. He was a completely awesome character who also happened to be bisexual.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:57 AM on July 15, 2014
Definitly look around the web for scenes from Season 4 of Game of Thrones that contain Oberyn Martell. He was a completely awesome character who also happened to be bisexual.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:57 AM on July 15, 2014
The Hannibal comparison is also amusing considering how much Totally Platonic Face Touching Between Two Men Staring Longingly Into Each Others Eyes occurs on that show.
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Someone write me a fic where Constantine and Swamp Thing eat ortolans together and then gaze longingly into each other's eyes while talking about their feelings, please.
posted by Stacey at 8:31 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:31 AM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
Constantine and Swamp Thing eat ortolans together and then gaze longingly into each other's eyes while talking about their feelings
Isn't that the entire run of the Alan Moore Swamp Thing?
posted by maxsparber at 8:44 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Isn't that the entire run of the Alan Moore Swamp Thing?
posted by maxsparber at 8:44 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Note that Black Canary is not bisexual in canon, but she can kiss another woman in Arrow and nobody raises a stink about whether or not her sexuality is a "core" part of her character.
Let's be clear that the current Black Canary on "Arrow" is NOT the same character as the traditional comicbook Canary, Dinah Lance. Arrow BC is Sara Lance, created for the show as the younger sister of (future BC?)Dinah Laurel Lance. The lack of stink-raising over Sara's sexuality may be in part because she's not the "REAL Canary."
And I really liked the handling of Sara's bisexuality on "Arrow." She comes out matter-of-factly to her friends and family and is met with immediate acceptance and love. Sara's relationship with her female lover is treated with romantic gravitas as an intense mutual love affair. And both women finish the season with a relatively happy ending, which on "Arrow" means they're not dead, maimed, or insane.
"Arrow" is (deliciously) cheesy/soapy and hardly perfect, but it's made some real increases in the roles of women, people of color, and bi/lesbian women in DC live-action. I hope "Arrow" continues to push that envelope forward. And I'm deeply disappointed that "Constantine" appears to be less brave.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:47 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Let's be clear that the current Black Canary on "Arrow" is NOT the same character as the traditional comicbook Canary, Dinah Lance. Arrow BC is Sara Lance, created for the show as the younger sister of (future BC?)
And I really liked the handling of Sara's bisexuality on "Arrow." She comes out matter-of-factly to her friends and family and is met with immediate acceptance and love. Sara's relationship with her female lover is treated with romantic gravitas as an intense mutual love affair. And both women finish the season with a relatively happy ending, which on "Arrow" means they're not dead, maimed, or insane.
"Arrow" is (deliciously) cheesy/soapy and hardly perfect, but it's made some real increases in the roles of women, people of color, and bi/lesbian women in DC live-action. I hope "Arrow" continues to push that envelope forward. And I'm deeply disappointed that "Constantine" appears to be less brave.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:47 AM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
I dunno: I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet, but I'm sort of surprised that anyone thought a show about John Constantine on a major US network was going to be anything short of Not Like The Comic Book Really.
I mean, if a UK network had been able to grab the rights, then we might have had the show comic book fans want, not the one NBC is going to give us. For all our cacophony about how much they're excising from the character himself, the execs are looking at an audience that is Not Us. They're looking for an audience whose tastes run much more tame in that timeslot. (And yes, I am aware of Hannibal, but as awesome as it is, it's not a ratings juggernaut; it's cult one.)
posted by Kitteh at 8:54 AM on July 15, 2014
I mean, if a UK network had been able to grab the rights, then we might have had the show comic book fans want, not the one NBC is going to give us. For all our cacophony about how much they're excising from the character himself, the execs are looking at an audience that is Not Us. They're looking for an audience whose tastes run much more tame in that timeslot. (And yes, I am aware of Hannibal, but as awesome as it is, it's not a ratings juggernaut; it's cult one.)
posted by Kitteh at 8:54 AM on July 15, 2014
If you read the actual interview you'll see that he doesn't say "this John Constantine isn't bisexual and we'll never do a story involving bisexuality." He says that it was a minor aspect of the comic character (which appears to be true) and that they have no "immediate plans" to feature that aspect of the character in the TV series. Really, though, as someone said above, all they'd have to do to make his bisexuality equally prominent in the TV show as it is in the comics is have him mention a "former boyfriend" in passing. I could easily imagine them throwing the hard-core comics fans that bone at some point.
On the "truth in advertising" front, the title for this thread ("we’re not going to see that on tv") doesn't refer to his bisexuality, it refers to his sex life tout court. That is, we're not actually going to have full-frontal sex scenes on this NBC series. Surprise, surprise.
posted by yoink at 9:10 AM on July 15, 2014
On the "truth in advertising" front, the title for this thread ("we’re not going to see that on tv") doesn't refer to his bisexuality, it refers to his sex life tout court. That is, we're not actually going to have full-frontal sex scenes on this NBC series. Surprise, surprise.
posted by yoink at 9:10 AM on July 15, 2014
Any kind of argument that they don't want to show a bisexual guy on network TV because it's network TV is weaksauce considering that ABC has had a bi male character who has had on screen relationships with kisses/sex scenes with both men and women for three years now: Nolan on Revenge.
He's not a background/minor character either. He's billed third after Emily Van Camp and Madeleine Stowe, and has been in every episode.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:25 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
He's not a background/minor character either. He's billed third after Emily Van Camp and Madeleine Stowe, and has been in every episode.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:25 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
But lovecrafty that doesn't count cause Revenge is a GIRL SHOW ( ew cooties)
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 AM on July 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
If you read the actual interview you'll see that he doesn't say "this John Constantine isn't bisexual and we'll never do a story involving bisexuality." He says that it was a minor aspect of the comic character (which appears to be true) and that they have no "immediate plans" to feature that aspect of the character in the TV series.
He also says "maybe in 20 years", so the "no immediate plans" reads to me like "it'll be a cold day in hell before I, David Goyer, write one of my ugly fascist power fantasies as something other than white/male/cis/straight, but tune in for some queerbaiting!"
posted by kagredon at 9:41 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
He also says "maybe in 20 years", so the "no immediate plans" reads to me like "it'll be a cold day in hell before I, David Goyer, write one of my ugly fascist power fantasies as something other than white/male/cis/straight, but tune in for some queerbaiting!"
posted by kagredon at 9:41 AM on July 15, 2014 [6 favorites]
That is, we're not actually going to have full-frontal sex scenes on this NBC series.
I've seen a few people trotting out the "but they're not going to show any hardcore sex, so why would they make him bi?" argument, clearly forgetting that we bisexuals/queers can and often do interact with each other whilst clothed and not doing sex. This is a ground-breaking revelation, I'm sure.
posted by fight or flight at 9:45 AM on July 15, 2014 [11 favorites]
I've seen a few people trotting out the "but they're not going to show any hardcore sex, so why would they make him bi?" argument, clearly forgetting that we bisexuals/queers can and often do interact with each other whilst clothed and not doing sex. This is a ground-breaking revelation, I'm sure.
posted by fight or flight at 9:45 AM on July 15, 2014 [11 favorites]
I've seen a few people trotting out the "but they're not going to show any hardcore sex, so why would they make him bi?" argument, clearly forgetting that we bisexuals/queers can and often do interact with each other whilst clothed and not doing sex. This is a ground-breaking revelation, I'm sure.
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine raised the issue 19 years ago with no nudity or explicit sex, and did it pretty brilliantly in that there's not a peep of conflict over whether two women might have a relationship worth dying for. (By coincidence, we just watched that episode.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:28 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine raised the issue 19 years ago with no nudity or explicit sex, and did it pretty brilliantly in that there's not a peep of conflict over whether two women might have a relationship worth dying for. (By coincidence, we just watched that episode.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:28 AM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
So so many of the already-rare bisexual characters in TV are bi women. Because bi men in media are assumed to be secretly truly 100% gay and in denial. Once a guy has been TAINTED BY THE COCK(!), he can never go back to kissing girls.
Queer representation in media still matters because there's still so comparatively little of it. You can look at US TV and assume that bisexual men don't exist.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:11 PM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
Queer representation in media still matters because there's still so comparatively little of it. You can look at US TV and assume that bisexual men don't exist.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:11 PM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
i read an interesting point the other day saying that bisexual men and bisexual women are defined by the penis - that the trope of bisexual men being secretly gay and bisexual women really being straight is just another function of how our culture views people as they relate to men first.
posted by nadawi at 2:58 PM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:58 PM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
> that doesn't count cause Revenge is a GIRL SHOW ( ew cooties)
True! It's basically an ongoing soap opera with outrageous storylines and secret identities and people so rich it's like they have super powers (of which Nolan is one). Kind of like comic books.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:17 PM on July 15, 2014
True! It's basically an ongoing soap opera with outrageous storylines and secret identities and people so rich it's like they have super powers (of which Nolan is one). Kind of like comic books.
posted by lovecrafty at 3:17 PM on July 15, 2014
For some reason people don't seem to make that connection. I mean House sof Cards is basically a telenovela set in a Resotration Hardware so its coded masculine and "serious" while say, Scandal is not.
posted by The Whelk at 3:18 PM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 3:18 PM on July 15, 2014 [4 favorites]
And amazingly enough, House of Cards still manages show a canon bisexual male character. In fact, he's the main goddamn character.
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:31 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:31 PM on July 15, 2014 [2 favorites]
I don't see John as so much being bisexual as "whatever works". I think he'd fuck a dog if that was somehow useful to whatever scheme he was hatching at the time, and banging that dude in that particular storyline was very much a part of the trap he was laying.
He really and seriously isn't John Constantine without a Silk Cut in his mouth, though.
posted by rifflesby at 4:20 PM on July 15, 2014
He really and seriously isn't John Constantine without a Silk Cut in his mouth, though.
posted by rifflesby at 4:20 PM on July 15, 2014
Oh hey, I somehow didn't realize this was David Goyer, the guy who thinks She-Hulk is supposed to be a fantasy object for Bruce Banner and not, you know, his cousin. I'm double not watching this.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:34 PM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 4:34 PM on July 15, 2014 [5 favorites]
> I somehow didn't realize this was David Goyer, the guy who thinks She-Hulk is supposed to be a fantasy object for Bruce Banner and not, you know, his cousin.
That's him?? Ugh. He's also the guy who made Leonardo frickin' Da Vinci more about the ladies.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:43 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's him?? Ugh. He's also the guy who made Leonardo frickin' Da Vinci more about the ladies.
posted by lovecrafty at 4:43 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah I heard about this andwetnesst "Well, hmmm, a lot of modern TV genre stuff riffs on Hellblazer but no one has really gotten that kind of jerky but oddly endearing working class magician dirtbag thing RIGHT, plus John breaks away from the cliches of the grimdark detective in some importnt ways so that could be- oh wait it's Goyer? AHAHAHAHA no."
posted by The Whelk at 5:25 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 5:25 PM on July 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh fuck me, THAT David Goyer? Screw it, take me awaaaaay, Slade Wilson.
God fucking dammit, Constantine, the closest I'll ever come to your obnoxious prettyface is Spike on "Buffy." D:
Best-case scenario, Goyer gets sooooo swamped with Busy Important Things™ onBatman VS Supernan or whatever that he must turn the "Constantine" duties over to someone else. Anyone else. Anyone else who isn't Frank Miller.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:14 PM on July 15, 2014
God fucking dammit, Constantine, the closest I'll ever come to your obnoxious prettyface is Spike on "Buffy." D:
Best-case scenario, Goyer gets sooooo swamped with Busy Important Things™ onBatman VS Supernan or whatever that he must turn the "Constantine" duties over to someone else. Anyone else. Anyone else who isn't Frank Miller.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:14 PM on July 15, 2014
Jamie Delano is obviously too much to hope for.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:58 PM on July 15, 2014
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:58 PM on July 15, 2014
andwetnesst
I'll take Wonderfully Revealing Autocorrects for $1000, Alex.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:22 AM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'll take Wonderfully Revealing Autocorrects for $1000, Alex.
posted by middleclasstool at 5:22 AM on July 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by parliboy at 3:52 AM on July 15, 2014