Love before War

December 17, 2014 5:41 PM

There's all this talk about a manned trip to Mars. But there's another planet to consider visiting before a trip to Mars - NASA is now studying how to send people to Venus.
posted by ShooBoo (48 comments total)

Send whom?

As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list--I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be overground,
And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!
There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs--
All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs--
All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat--
All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like _that_--
And all third persons who on spoiling tete-a-tetes insist--
They'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed!

CHORUS. He's got 'em on the list--he's got 'em on the list;
And they'll none of 'em be missed--they'll none of
'em be missed.

posted by ocschwar at 5:52 PM on December 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

And then someone/something accidentally bursts one of those balloons, and everyone gets simultaneously crushed, burned, and irradiated in one go.

Yeah no, I'll switch my ticket to the Mars flight, thanks. No, not even the macadamia nuts in their lil ceramic dish interest me.
posted by slater at 6:22 PM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

If you're sending people just to sit in a tiny capsule analyzing the atmosphere, why send people at all?
posted by crazy with stars at 6:22 PM on December 17, 2014 [13 favorites]

NASA: I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.
posted by ryoshu at 6:24 PM on December 17, 2014 [9 favorites]

Send everyone!

We're heading for Venus and still we stand tall
Cause maybe they've seen us and welcome us all
With so many light years to go and things to be found
I'm sure that we'll all miss her so!

CHORUS. It's the final countdown!!!

posted by Herr Zebrurka at 6:37 PM on December 17, 2014 [11 favorites]

Not a double, but we had this conversation recently.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:37 PM on December 17, 2014

NASA studies a lot of things. This idea is pure fantasy in terms of ever getting off the drawing board, even for unmanned probes.

Plus, it's crazy ass idea.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:39 PM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

And Jesus, he wants to go to Venus
Leave Levon far behind
Take a balloon and go sailing
While Levon, Levon slowly dies
posted by hangashore at 6:47 PM on December 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

Well, sending people to Venus is not all that difficult.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:47 PM on December 17, 2014 [6 favorites]

Attention Mefites: are you boldly prepared to go where no fleshling has before boldly gone? Does the Mars One concept appeal to you, only to dash your hopes with exorbitant reservation fees and a schedule to test the patience of a saint? My company is currently taking pre-orders for a new expedition to Earth's other neighbor. We promise a much shorter one-way trip. For a nominal fee, you can save a spot on our maiden voyage today. PM for details. Excelsior!
posted by [expletive deleted] at 6:56 PM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

I'm your Venus
I'm your fire
at your desire
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:08 PM on December 17, 2014

A new short life awaits you on the off-world colonies!
posted by Mister Moofoo at 7:12 PM on December 17, 2014 [11 favorites]

Jokey song lyrics aside (sorry), I thought I'd heard this proposed as a concept for long-term exploration of the gas-giant planets. A bit of Googleage led me to a (slow-loading PDF) technical document summarizing the requirements for airships to explore Venus, Mars, the four big gasbags, and even Saturn's moon Titan. I particularly liked the observation: "The outer, gas giant, planets also pose an interesting application for a neutrally buoyant vehicle. The most applicable type of vehicle for the exploration of the outer planets would be more like a submarine than an airship, in that it would be a pressure vessel evacuated to hold out the atmosphere (like a submarine) instead of generating lift at atmospheric pressure with a less dense gas, like an airship."
posted by hangashore at 7:21 PM on December 17, 2014

I dunno, after reading that piece on everything wrong with Mars One, this doesn't sound particularly more dangerous. I think living off-planet just kinda means maybe dying at any time.
posted by Peevish at 7:27 PM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Jokey song lyrics aside

Never!

Venus, if you will...
please send along a girl for me to thrill...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:59 PM on December 17, 2014

Before the development of more powerful telescopes, early astronomer Franz von Gruithuisen believed that ashen light was from the fires from celebration of a new Venusian emperor, and later believed that it was the inhabitants burning vegetation to make room for farmland.

posted by XMLicious at 8:07 PM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

'Twas on the ship to Venus
By Gor you shoulda seen us
We kept our heads strapped to our beds
With liquor intravenous!

CHORUS:
Swigging in the rigging
Swigging in the rigging
Swigging in the rigging cos
There's too much CO₂!

[CHORUS]

Outside the storm clouds mass-ed
Full of sulfuric acid
But we got drunk
Tied in our bunks
Which kept us nice and placid!

[CHORUS]

We drink 'til we see double
Inside our Teflon bubble
Our news reports
Are really short
'Cos typing's too much trouble!

[CHORUS]
... etc.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:13 PM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Future Presidential briefing: "Oh no, we didn't just disappear those people. They volunteered for a tour of Venus!"
posted by pompomtom at 8:47 PM on December 17, 2014

IIRC, Kornbluth's seminal SF story The Marching Morons used that as a plot device.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:04 PM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

Venus is where Scientology claims Xenu put his soul net to capture souls of dead Thetans so they can be reborn on Earth and attach to human bodies.

If we go there and find out there is no soul net there, it can discredit Scientology.

Travel in a balloon? 99 Red Balloons / 99 Luftballons. Everyone wants to be a Captain Kirk.
posted by Orion Blastar at 9:16 PM on December 17, 2014

Have you seen the old Russian pictures from the surface of Venus? Or the radar generated 3D topo maps of Venus? Looks wicked. Would love to go there.
posted by Windopaene at 9:20 PM on December 17, 2014

The project is called HAVOC?
Really.
posted by not_on_display at 9:35 PM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

"Hello. What have we here? Welcome ... I’m the administrator of this facility. And who might you be?
posted by kenlayne at 10:18 PM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

Wasn't this the subject of an audio documentary in the late Seventies?
posted by irrelephant at 10:27 PM on December 17, 2014

Destination Venus
More than darkness lies between us
Twenty million miles of bleakness
Human weakness..

Yes, I know it's a Rezillos song originally but I have always preferred the Man or Astroman? version

To address the meat of the post, though -- add me to the list of skeptics who don't see Venus as an ideal candidate for a manned mission. I'd much rather see a Mars mission or, better yet, progress towards a permanent moon base.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:34 PM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I for one think this is a good idea. And not just because of that one Cowboy Bebop episode.
posted by cthuljew at 10:42 PM on December 17, 2014

There's a great scene on the surface of Venus in Alastair Reynolds' 2013 novel On the Steel Breeze (which is a sequel to Blue Remembered Earth).
posted by neuron at 11:11 PM on December 17, 2014 [1 favorite]

I guess I'm one of the few who thinks this makes some sense (or at least finds it interesting and not laughable to think about). I can imagine making these airships out of material that is just as resilient as anything we'd make Mars shelters out of. Maybe that material doesn't quite exist yet, but it doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to imagine that it could be invented.

Once you've solved the problem of resilient buoyancy on a large scale, you could start to build whole colonies in the atmosphere.
posted by treepour at 11:25 PM on December 17, 2014 [3 favorites]

Yes, but why? It makes sense for Mars: the diverse nature of the terrain means that it would be really advantageous for a human to be able to walk around, clean the surfaces of rocks, and dig into the soil. What could a human do in Venus' atmosphere that wouldn't be done just as well by an automated analytical laboratory?
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:30 PM on December 17, 2014 [2 favorites]

We're heading for Venus and still we stand tall

Don't forget your tractor!
posted by Dr Dracator at 1:08 AM on December 18, 2014

Great post, jerk! Now I'm going to have to listen to Gustav Holst all day.
posted by Captain l'escalier at 1:58 AM on December 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

At least it'll be easy to ensure there's no bio-contamination from the visiting space travellers. Because, y'know, they'll be incinerated.
posted by Devonian at 5:10 AM on December 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

By why?

As a species, it would be nice to have the capability to escape even our own planet, to feel that we aren't trapped here. That's what it comes down to, right? And Venus may be the easier place to go.

What’s more important, especially relative to Mars, is the amount of solar power available on Venus and the amount of protection that Venus has from radiation. The amount of radiation an astronaut would be exposed to in Venus’s atmosphere would be “about the same as if you were in Canada,” says Arney. On Mars, unshielded astronauts would be exposed to about 0.67 millisieverts per day, which is 40 times as much as on Earth, and they’d likely need to bury their habitats several meters beneath the surface to minimize exposure. As for solar power, proximity to the sun gets Venus 40 percent more than we get here on Earth, and 240 percent more than we’d see on Mars.

Also, this post really needs a previously link, from just three weeks ago...
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:12 AM on December 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

As a species, it would be nice to have the capability to escape even our own planet, to feel that we aren't trapped here.

As a human, there are any number of places in the world that I can travel and live. These places allow me to breathe air, wear little or no clothing, swim in water, feel a breeze or stretch out as much as I choose.

There is no place in the solar system that will allow such freedom for humanity, so I, a verified manned space flight nut who thinks NASA's budget should be at least doubled, find the idea that we're trapped on Earth to be startling short-sighted.

Let's build bases on the Moon and Mars and everywhere else we can and spread out. But let us never forget the unique home that birthed and cared for us and strive always to take care it, so we'll always have a place to return to.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:31 AM on December 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

I think living off-planet just kinda means maybe dying at any time.

I have some bad news for you about living on-planet.
posted by Hatashran at 5:58 AM on December 18, 2014 [10 favorites]

Imagine if Christopher Columbus--upon arrival at Hispaniola--had inflated a dinghy and just sort of floated around and looked at the shore through a telescope. Of course, there were no inflatable dinghies in 1492, but now we have no excuse.

We can do it right this time!
posted by General Tonic at 7:33 AM on December 18, 2014

From the previous Venus thread, I still favor Mercury, just for the petawatt laser arrays...
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:41 AM on December 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

slater: And then someone/something accidentally bursts one of those balloons, and everyone gets simultaneously crushed, burned, and irradiated in one go.

Yeah no, I'll switch my ticket to the Mars flight, thanks. No, not even the macadamia nuts in their lil ceramic dish interest me.

1. Those balloons aren't burstable - they're essentially at 1.0 atmospheres, like if you tied a knot in an uninflated balloon on Earth - or closed a ziplock bag with some air in it.

2. There would be multiple layers.

3. There would be multiple compartments inside (airlocks).

4. Doesn't matter; you'd die of cancer before you ever got to either planet.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:47 AM on December 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

find the idea that we're trapped on Earth to be startling short-sighted.

I mean, I'm not saying Earth isn't a nice place and all. It is definitely far nicer than anywhere else in this solar system. But still, I wouldn't want to be under house arrest at the Plaza hotel, even with free room service. I don't really want to leave Earth at the moment, but I'd like to know I could, if I ever did want to, y'know?
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:53 AM on December 18, 2014

I really dig the idea of clusters of giant rafts, bobbing along atop the Venusian atmosphere. Imagine if we could make something as big and as stable as Cloud City. You couldn't have the big balconies, but it would be pretty cool.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 10:02 AM on December 18, 2014

The US Navy routinely sends groups of 150 people to a completely inhospitable environment inside a sealed vessel which, if compromised structurally or functionally, would mean certain death for all. Obviously there are different technological challenges involved for a Venus mission, but it's doable.
posted by dephlogisticated at 11:19 AM on December 18, 2014

Obviously there are different technological challenges involved for a Venus mission, but it's doable.

It's not doable. There's a world of difference between putting people on the in a submarine and putting people in a floating ship millions of miles away, after a 400 day journey through an extremely hostile environment.

Never mind the fact that there's little purpose to doing so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:57 AM on December 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

dephlogisticated - eponysterically wrong.

And Brandon Blatcher: "There's a world of difference..." - quite literally.
posted by IAmBroom at 1:23 PM on December 18, 2014

If they could make them like giant Sirens, or waving lumberjacks, or Burma Shave signs.
posted by Oyéah at 3:03 PM on December 18, 2014

My point is not that underwater travel and interplanetary travel are equivalent, but that humans surviving in an enclosed habitat in an inhospitable environment, just one or two equipment failures from death, is not all that unusual. It's practically the norm in space. I was responding to the comments above regarding the risks of living in a floating structure above the harsh environment of Venus.

I do think these things are technologically possible. Most of the unsolved problems surrounding interplanetary travel are essentially economic in nature. It's not hard to shield astronauts from cosmic radiation, the problem is doing so without adding excessively to launch weight. Same with counteracting the health effects of weightlessness using a rotating spacecraft; the weight of extra propellant and heavier ship construction. These are problems that can be solved with current technology, just not with current budgets. Whether it would be worth the cost is a different matter. I think I'd agree with you that full-scale manned missions to other planets don't make a lot of sense at the present time.

If you do believe that interplanetary travel is fundamentally impossible, I urge you to write to NASA. I think it's something their aeronautical engineers would want to know.
posted by dephlogisticated at 4:15 PM on December 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

The project is called HAVOC?

Yes. Unfortunately, the lowest rank we'll be able to send on the mission is Major.
posted by pashdown at 5:10 PM on December 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

My point is not that underwater travel and interplanetary travel are equivalent, but that humans surviving in an enclosed habitat in an inhospitable environment, just one or two equipment failures from death, is not all that unusual.

It's extremely unusual, going by the sheer numbers. The most people in space at one time is 14 I think. Very few people serve on a sub. Because very few people will enjoy the experience long term.

Which is fine! We're not talking about putting entire cities of people into metal tubes or something. My only point here is to disagree that these are unusual conditions and few people are qualified to do it.

That and we don't have the technology to do the Venus thing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:11 PM on December 18, 2014

Even if we did, couldn't we just put them in a sealed tube, shake it around, and feed them the results from a robotic lab in Venus' atmosphere? It's not like they could see the surface anyway.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:43 PM on December 18, 2014