Minor-League Baseball Player Finds a Better Way to Be Out
August 17, 2015 8:36 AM Subscribe
David Denson is a first baseman for the Milwaukee Brewers' Rookie League affiliate in Helena, Montana. He has a long way to go if he wants to play in Major League Baseball -- the Rookie League is the lowest rung of the professional baseball ladder, and most players will never play a game in the bigs. Denson started his pro career with the Low-A Wisconsin Timber Rattlers last year but was demoted to Helena following an anemic .195 start to the 2015 season. Denson attributes his poor showing to hiding a secret from his teammates -- he is gay, and no active MLB-affiliated player has ever come out of the closet.
Denson came out to his family and the Brewers earlier this year, with the counsel of MLB Ambassador for Inclusion Billy Bean, who came out as gay after he retired from baseball. Glenn Burke was the first MLB player to come out publicly, also after retiring, but his sexuality was known to his teammates while he was playing.
Sean Conroy, a pitcher for the independent Sonoma Stompers, came out publicly shortly before the team's gay pride night in June of this year. He threw a shutout.
Denson came out to his family and the Brewers earlier this year, with the counsel of MLB Ambassador for Inclusion Billy Bean, who came out as gay after he retired from baseball. Glenn Burke was the first MLB player to come out publicly, also after retiring, but his sexuality was known to his teammates while he was playing.
Sean Conroy, a pitcher for the independent Sonoma Stompers, came out publicly shortly before the team's gay pride night in June of this year. He threw a shutout.
I listened to Curt Schilling and John Kruk talk about this last night during the Royals/Angels game. Both of them went on quite a serious rant about how sexual orientation shouldn't matter in professional sports, how they played with gay players during their careers, and how any manager and coach only wants somebody who can hit and field the ball. It was really interesting, especially coming from Schilling, a noted Republican and self-proclaimed born-again Christian. The tide really has turned in this country - it's an amazing thing. I really think we are not far off from high profile athletes finally coming out.
posted by something something at 9:28 AM on August 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by something something at 9:28 AM on August 17, 2015 [17 favorites]
I really think we are not far off from high profile athletes finally coming out.
I really hope that's the case, but Michael Sam seems to be a pretty big counter-argument right now. I want sports to be better on this, but I'm going to wait to give them props until we actually see somebody coming out in the big leagues and not immediately getting sidelined.
posted by protocoach at 9:33 AM on August 17, 2015
I really hope that's the case, but Michael Sam seems to be a pretty big counter-argument right now. I want sports to be better on this, but I'm going to wait to give them props until we actually see somebody coming out in the big leagues and not immediately getting sidelined.
posted by protocoach at 9:33 AM on August 17, 2015
5 of them need to come out at once. It'd be great, the press wouldn't know what to do with it, and neither would the jerks.
posted by mediareport at 9:35 AM on August 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 9:35 AM on August 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
It was the kind of profane, politically incorrect banter heard in that environment since team sports have been around.
Citation, please.
Also, I'd like to know what the guy making the homophobic comment said afterwards. Presumably he was embarrassed and apologized, but is there any indication that he got that that's not cool, whether his teammate is gay or not? Did Densen let it slide rather than embarrassing the guy further or drive home the not-cool point (or did someone else finally step in and drive home the not-cool point)?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:35 AM on August 17, 2015
Citation, please.
Also, I'd like to know what the guy making the homophobic comment said afterwards. Presumably he was embarrassed and apologized, but is there any indication that he got that that's not cool, whether his teammate is gay or not? Did Densen let it slide rather than embarrassing the guy further or drive home the not-cool point (or did someone else finally step in and drive home the not-cool point)?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:35 AM on August 17, 2015
Michael Sam seems to be a pretty big counter-argument right now
Michael Sam is the counter-argument to "high profile athletes" because he is only high profile for coming out. Yes, he excelled at Missouri; but he's not as good as Shane Ray, and obviously his skills haven't translated to the pros. He's not not a good pro linebacker because he's gay. To think for a second that the NFL--the NFL of today, with men born in the late '80s (i.e., a demonstrably tolerant generation) in the locker rooms--wouldn't put the best player on the field is insane. They routinely do anything they can to keep drunks, rapists, thieves, and murderers playing.
posted by resurrexit at 9:47 AM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Michael Sam is the counter-argument to "high profile athletes" because he is only high profile for coming out. Yes, he excelled at Missouri; but he's not as good as Shane Ray, and obviously his skills haven't translated to the pros. He's not not a good pro linebacker because he's gay. To think for a second that the NFL--the NFL of today, with men born in the late '80s (i.e., a demonstrably tolerant generation) in the locker rooms--wouldn't put the best player on the field is insane. They routinely do anything they can to keep drunks, rapists, thieves, and murderers playing.
posted by resurrexit at 9:47 AM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I want sports to be better on this, but I'm going to wait to give them props until we actually see somebody coming out in the big leagues and not immediately getting sidelined.
I'm hoping that this happens sooner too, but I liked Grantland's take on why Denson's coming out is still important for sports: Change We Can Believe In: The Importance of Brewers Minor Leaguer David Denson’s Decision to Come Out.
posted by gladly at 9:50 AM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm hoping that this happens sooner too, but I liked Grantland's take on why Denson's coming out is still important for sports: Change We Can Believe In: The Importance of Brewers Minor Leaguer David Denson’s Decision to Come Out.
posted by gladly at 9:50 AM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
To think for a second that the NFL--the NFL of today, with men born in the late '80s (i.e., a demonstrably tolerant generation) in the locker rooms--wouldn't put the best player on the field is insane.
That's popular thinking, but it's not borne out by Sam's stats, "It's not hard to understand why the collective rejection of Sam might raise some eyebrows. You can dissect his college and nascent professional career many ways - But no matter how you look at it, the NFL snub Sam has experienced over the last six months is literally, statistically, factually unheard of."
posted by gladly at 9:55 AM on August 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
That's popular thinking, but it's not borne out by Sam's stats, "It's not hard to understand why the collective rejection of Sam might raise some eyebrows. You can dissect his college and nascent professional career many ways - But no matter how you look at it, the NFL snub Sam has experienced over the last six months is literally, statistically, factually unheard of."
posted by gladly at 9:55 AM on August 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Michael Sam is the counter-argument to "high profile athletes" because he is only high profile for coming out. Yes, he excelled at Missouri; but he's not as good as Shane Ray, and obviously his skills haven't translated to the pros. He's not not a good pro linebacker because he's gay. To think for a second that the NFL--the NFL of today, with men born in the late '80s (i.e., a demonstrably tolerant generation) in the locker rooms--wouldn't put the best player on the field is insane. They routinely do anything they can to keep drunks, rapists, thieves, and murderers playing.
That's not true. Sam was a DPOY in the conference that was/is widely regarded as the best in the nation. His stock dropped 4 rounds as soon as he came out. In the one chance he was given, he had a statistically strong preseason. Other players with virtually identical measurements and similar or less impressive production are on rosters and practice squads all over the league. Michael Sam was blacklisted from football for being gay.
posted by protocoach at 9:56 AM on August 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
That's not true. Sam was a DPOY in the conference that was/is widely regarded as the best in the nation. His stock dropped 4 rounds as soon as he came out. In the one chance he was given, he had a statistically strong preseason. Other players with virtually identical measurements and similar or less impressive production are on rosters and practice squads all over the league. Michael Sam was blacklisted from football for being gay.
posted by protocoach at 9:56 AM on August 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
That Grantland piece is great, gladly; thanks.
posted by mediareport at 10:02 AM on August 17, 2015
posted by mediareport at 10:02 AM on August 17, 2015
MLB is taking a lead on this in some ways. As far as I know, it's the only league with an "Ambassador for Inclusion." I think it comes off from the league's own sense of history, remembering its great shame for the way it dis-allowed African American players.
I've been really critical of Bud Selig at times, but I think his decision to bring on Billy Bean was a good to great one.
posted by drezdn at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've been really critical of Bud Selig at times, but I think his decision to bring on Billy Bean was a good to great one.
posted by drezdn at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I listened to Curt Schilling and John Kruk talk about this last night during the Royals/Angels game. Both of them went on quite a serious rant about how sexual orientation shouldn't matter in professional sports, how they played with gay players during their careers, and how any manager and coach only wants somebody who can hit and field the ball. It was really interesting, especially coming from Schilling, a noted Republican and self-proclaimed born-again Christian. The tide really has turned in this country - it's an amazing thing. I really think we are not far off from high profile athletes finally coming out.
I dunno, I watched that, and I actually went back to watch it again, to see if Curt Schilling's expressions and body language matched up with the words that were coming out of his mouth (bc I could believe it for reasons you said!) and John Kruk pretty much just mmm-hmmmed along with Schilling and shook his head a lot. I couldn't work out whether the head shaking was at people who cared about Denson's sexual orientation, or if he was disagreeing with Schilling and just didn't want to say it out loud.
posted by gaspode at 10:29 AM on August 17, 2015
I dunno, I watched that, and I actually went back to watch it again, to see if Curt Schilling's expressions and body language matched up with the words that were coming out of his mouth (bc I could believe it for reasons you said!) and John Kruk pretty much just mmm-hmmmed along with Schilling and shook his head a lot. I couldn't work out whether the head shaking was at people who cared about Denson's sexual orientation, or if he was disagreeing with Schilling and just didn't want to say it out loud.
posted by gaspode at 10:29 AM on August 17, 2015
Did Densen let it slide rather than embarrassing the guy further or drive home the not-cool point (or did someone else finally step in and drive home the not-cool point)?
The very next sentence says Denson cautioned him in a friendly way to be careful. He doesn't sound like someone who'd try to make him feel guilty about it.
Even if the teammate didn't realize anything at the time, I'm sure he got the immediate point and things didn't escalate.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 10:30 AM on August 17, 2015
The very next sentence says Denson cautioned him in a friendly way to be careful. He doesn't sound like someone who'd try to make him feel guilty about it.
Even if the teammate didn't realize anything at the time, I'm sure he got the immediate point and things didn't escalate.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 10:30 AM on August 17, 2015
I have it on good authority that a man once hired noted fireballer Dick "The Monster" Radatz to throw oranges at his ass at high velocity, because the man derived gratification from said act and Radatz figured it was easy money.
What I'm saying is that the world of baseball has room for everybody.
posted by delfin at 10:37 AM on August 17, 2015
What I'm saying is that the world of baseball has room for everybody.
posted by delfin at 10:37 AM on August 17, 2015
I think Schilling is just more outspoken and articulate on issues like that, so Kruk just kinda let him do the talking.
Unfortunately, they seemed to reinforce the popular "Who cares?" sentiment among many sports fans. No one should care, but we're far from the point where no one actually would care.
Schilling and Kruk did say how it's up to team leaders to make sure that would be the case, but it's probably easier said than done. Because of geography, baseball players are the most conservative compared to other American sports.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 10:42 AM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, they seemed to reinforce the popular "Who cares?" sentiment among many sports fans. No one should care, but we're far from the point where no one actually would care.
Schilling and Kruk did say how it's up to team leaders to make sure that would be the case, but it's probably easier said than done. Because of geography, baseball players are the most conservative compared to other American sports.
posted by TheSecretDecoderRing at 10:42 AM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now, if someone comes out in the NHL, I must see Don Cherry's take. Although I think he only hates Europeans and French Canadians, so who knows.
posted by lmfsilva at 11:06 AM on August 17, 2015
posted by lmfsilva at 11:06 AM on August 17, 2015
I think Schilling is just more outspoken and articulate on issues like that, so Kruk just kinda let him do the talking.
Because if there's one thing John Kruk is famous for, it's that he keeps his mouth shut around more articulate people than himself (a sizable population)
posted by RogerB at 11:36 AM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because if there's one thing John Kruk is famous for, it's that he keeps his mouth shut around more articulate people than himself (a sizable population)
posted by RogerB at 11:36 AM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
If there's one thing John Kruk is famous for, it's for having one thing. The other was removed due to cancer.
posted by delfin at 11:37 AM on August 17, 2015
posted by delfin at 11:37 AM on August 17, 2015
OK, since we're on a Kruk derail at the moment, I will add this one additional thing he muttered under his breath last night, in the middle of a multi-inning discussion about BBQ ribs, that made me laugh out loud: "I'm so fat. I have to stop." Just quietly, as if to himself.
posted by something something at 11:45 AM on August 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by something something at 11:45 AM on August 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
My impression of what happened to Michael Sam is that his draft stock dropped not because he was gay, but because the teams didn't want the "drama" that they stereotypically assume a gay man would bring to the locker room. It was never discussed as, "I don't want a gay player on the team," but instead as, "I don't think the other players will be able to handle a gay player on the team." Lots of discussion about "fit." Still unfair, still discriminatory, but in a painfully arms-reach sort of way that let the (older, white male) management pretend it wasn't their biases causing them to not sign him. Funny how the same teams don't worry about the drama a wife beater or child abuser would bring into their locker room.
If you want to see some straight-up bigoted, homophobic coaches you need to look at women's college basketball.
posted by thecjm at 11:55 AM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you want to see some straight-up bigoted, homophobic coaches you need to look at women's college basketball.
posted by thecjm at 11:55 AM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now, if someone comes out in the NHL, I must see Don Cherry's take
The NHL would be an interesting one, because you already have Brian Burke (currently President of Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames, previously GM of the Canucks, Ducks, and the Maple Leafs) and a noteable supporter of "truculence" and fighting in the game of hockey is also one of the co-founders of the You Can Play project and an outspoken proponent of gay rights since the death of his son Brendan.
posted by nubs at 11:58 AM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
The NHL would be an interesting one, because you already have Brian Burke (currently President of Hockey Operations for the Calgary Flames, previously GM of the Canucks, Ducks, and the Maple Leafs) and a noteable supporter of "truculence" and fighting in the game of hockey is also one of the co-founders of the You Can Play project and an outspoken proponent of gay rights since the death of his son Brendan.
posted by nubs at 11:58 AM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Michael Sam hasn't exactly lit up the CFL with his play, and as of Monday has left the league again for personal reasons. That shouldn't be taken to mean his skills don't or can't translate to the pro leagues - he's certainly faced a lot more non-football issues than the average player, and many skilled players don't make it for regular non-football issues - but it would have helped the argument a lot more had he been able to play and showed his ability on the field. That would have shown his inability to land a role with the NFL was based on something other than talent. Instead, it leaves the situation unclear.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:02 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:02 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
GhostintheMachine, see gladly and protocoach's comments (with the same link) above in re Sam's ability on the field.
posted by Etrigan at 12:05 PM on August 17, 2015
posted by Etrigan at 12:05 PM on August 17, 2015
My impression of what happened to Michael Sam is that his draft stock dropped not because he was gay, but because the teams didn't want the "drama" that they stereotypically assume a gay man would bring to the locker room.
How is that not because he's gay?
It's because he's gay. Whether that means reaction-to-his-actual-gayness or reaction-to-how-someone-else-might-react-to-his-actual-gayness, it's because he's gay. And, frankly, the latter is the usual polite bigot copout: "Oh I'm not worried about X, I'm worried about how other people would respond to X."
The way a human being responds to that shit is to be an ally and say "who the fuck cares how other people react? I will not react that way, I will listen to whatever Person X says about how they want to be treated, and I will drill into the skulls of the assholes that they need to listen to Person X."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:09 PM on August 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
How is that not because he's gay?
It's because he's gay. Whether that means reaction-to-his-actual-gayness or reaction-to-how-someone-else-might-react-to-his-actual-gayness, it's because he's gay. And, frankly, the latter is the usual polite bigot copout: "Oh I'm not worried about X, I'm worried about how other people would respond to X."
The way a human being responds to that shit is to be an ally and say "who the fuck cares how other people react? I will not react that way, I will listen to whatever Person X says about how they want to be treated, and I will drill into the skulls of the assholes that they need to listen to Person X."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:09 PM on August 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
My impression of what happened to Michael Sam is that his draft stock dropped not because he was gay, but because the teams didn't want the "drama" that they stereotypically assume a gay man would bring to the locker room.
I got the sense that part of it was also that they didn't want the drama brought by someone who was being filmed for a reality show, but I also wasn't paying very close attention to the situation so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
posted by psoas at 1:34 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I got the sense that part of it was also that they didn't want the drama brought by someone who was being filmed for a reality show, but I also wasn't paying very close attention to the situation so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
posted by psoas at 1:34 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hm, let's try that logic in a different setting:
"My impression of what happened to African-Americans during the Jim Crow era is that they were denied service not because they were black, but because the business owners didn't want the 'drama' that they they stereotypically assumed that black customers would bring to their establishments."
Yeah, that's a load of horseshit right there.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:38 PM on August 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
"My impression of what happened to African-Americans during the Jim Crow era is that they were denied service not because they were black, but because the business owners didn't want the 'drama' that they they stereotypically assumed that black customers would bring to their establishments."
Yeah, that's a load of horseshit right there.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:38 PM on August 17, 2015 [6 favorites]
To be honest, whoever had the idea (be it himself, his agent or publicist, Oprah, Rams PR or whatever) of signing up Sam for a reality show a few days after barely being drafted was a massive idiot more concerned about "building a brand" than having a product to begin with. I think everyone involved noticed right away it would be a terrible idea and didn't even get past from pre-production, but good luck erasing the notion that at one time, he was up to it.
(keep in mind this is a league that has a reality show no team wants to be in and Goodell usually has to force one to do it, and discourages players from time-consuming media side jobs)
posted by lmfsilva at 2:56 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
(keep in mind this is a league that has a reality show no team wants to be in and Goodell usually has to force one to do it, and discourages players from time-consuming media side jobs)
posted by lmfsilva at 2:56 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
More than a decade preceding Denson's announcement, award-winning playwright, Richard Greenberg, wrote a terrific play about coming out in the MLB, Take Me Out, and here's an article from 2004 in sfgate about it.
2003 Tony Award, BEST PLAY
posted by weathermachine at 3:34 PM on August 17, 2015
2003 Tony Award, BEST PLAY
posted by weathermachine at 3:34 PM on August 17, 2015
Etrigan, my post specifically acknowledged his proven talent. I was commenting on my disappointment that he has so far been unable to demonstrate his talent on the professional field. While he hasn't been given a reasonable chance in the NFL, the CFL has welcomed him (and in the city that saw Jackie Robinson break the colour barrier in pro baseball). It seems that outside factors in his personal life has inhibited him from showing what he's truly capable of, which is unfortunate. Field performance would go a long way to shutting up the detractors, and be further evidence that the NFL is in the wrong.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 3:57 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by GhostintheMachine at 3:57 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
he has so far been unable to demonstrate his talent on the professional field.
Read the outsports link. His preseason performance was far above what it took to get other rookies onto their team rosters. And yet, he got cut. Then the Cowboys put him on the practice squad, claimed to love his work, and cut him. Zero teams have put him on a futures contract.
If he hadn't come out, he'd be on the Rams. Maybe not starting, but certainly on the roster.
posted by Etrigan at 4:36 PM on August 17, 2015
Read the outsports link. His preseason performance was far above what it took to get other rookies onto their team rosters. And yet, he got cut. Then the Cowboys put him on the practice squad, claimed to love his work, and cut him. Zero teams have put him on a futures contract.
If he hadn't come out, he'd be on the Rams. Maybe not starting, but certainly on the roster.
posted by Etrigan at 4:36 PM on August 17, 2015
I guess I'm really bad at communicating my point. He hasn't been given a reasonable chance in the NFL. Maybe if I just stop there, it'll be clear. He hasn't been given a reasonable chance in the NFL. That's all.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:09 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:09 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Etrigan, GhostintheMachine is referencing Sam's MOST RECENT tenure with a pro team. We all read your link written by a gay sports editorialist/columnist. A lot of serious sports journos' opinion is to the contrary. Sam was a dominant collegiate end who, in the NFL, was a position tweener who couldn't make the jump. He sucked and, on top of that, appears from this summer's CFL camp to be a serious head case. He's showing the draft analysts to have been geniuses. Yes, he showed some flashes in one NFL preseason (asterisk) but, if he were a great player, he'd break onto a permanent spot somewhere--CFL, Europe, Arena, etc.
Pro sports--hyped by fans conditioned by LGBT-allied media in general and LGBT-friendly-to-neutral sports media in particular--are beyond ready for gays. Unfortunately for outsports.com sports journalists, the gay professional-level players just aren't there yet.
posted by resurrexit at 6:23 PM on August 17, 2015
Pro sports--hyped by fans conditioned by LGBT-allied media in general and LGBT-friendly-to-neutral sports media in particular--are beyond ready for gays. Unfortunately for outsports.com sports journalists, the gay professional-level players just aren't there yet.
posted by resurrexit at 6:23 PM on August 17, 2015
resurrexit: “Unfortunately for outsports.com sports journalists, the gay professional-level players just aren't there yet.”
The gay professional-level players who are out of the closet just aren't there yet, you mean. It is so insanely incredible to believe that no gay person is among the thousands upon thousands of professional players in pro sports today that only an idiot would buy it. There are a few possibilities: either gay people really aren't very good at sports, or they are there, and are just unwilling to come out for some reason. What could that reason be, I wonder?
“Pro sports--hyped by fans conditioned by LGBT-allied media in general and LGBT-friendly-to-neutral sports media in particular--are beyond ready for gays.”
Because of what I said above, this doesn't seem true at all.
posted by koeselitz at 6:30 PM on August 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
The gay professional-level players who are out of the closet just aren't there yet, you mean. It is so insanely incredible to believe that no gay person is among the thousands upon thousands of professional players in pro sports today that only an idiot would buy it. There are a few possibilities: either gay people really aren't very good at sports, or they are there, and are just unwilling to come out for some reason. What could that reason be, I wonder?
“Pro sports--hyped by fans conditioned by LGBT-allied media in general and LGBT-friendly-to-neutral sports media in particular--are beyond ready for gays.”
Because of what I said above, this doesn't seem true at all.
posted by koeselitz at 6:30 PM on August 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
agregoli: “Is baseball particularly homophobic?”
It seems to be, yeah. More than fifteen thousand major league players in history, and not one single one willing to admit he's gay? That seems like kind of an indication of culture to me.
posted by koeselitz at 6:37 PM on August 17, 2015
It seems to be, yeah. More than fifteen thousand major league players in history, and not one single one willing to admit he's gay? That seems like kind of an indication of culture to me.
posted by koeselitz at 6:37 PM on August 17, 2015
Sam was a dominant collegiate end... Yes, he showed some flashes in one NFL preseason (asterisk)
You just described how the vast majority of NFL players get their roster spots.
but, if he were a great player, he'd break onto a permanent spot somewhere--CFL, Europe, Arena, etc.
Yeah, that's part of the problem there. He has to be a great player instead of merely a good enough to make a roster player, because people in the NFL and online are calling him a "head case" and contorting themselves into tautological topologies: He must suck, because no one is hiring him, and no one is hiring him because he sucks.
posted by Etrigan at 6:43 PM on August 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
You just described how the vast majority of NFL players get their roster spots.
but, if he were a great player, he'd break onto a permanent spot somewhere--CFL, Europe, Arena, etc.
Yeah, that's part of the problem there. He has to be a great player instead of merely a good enough to make a roster player, because people in the NFL and online are calling him a "head case" and contorting themselves into tautological topologies: He must suck, because no one is hiring him, and no one is hiring him because he sucks.
posted by Etrigan at 6:43 PM on August 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
koeselitz: "agregoli: “Is baseball particularly homophobic?”
It seems to be, yeah. More than fifteen thousand major league players in history, and not one single one willing to admit he's gay? That seems like kind of an indication of culture to me."
I don't think baseball is especially more homophobic than (NFL) football, even by this rough metric (NFL has more players currently, although it has a much shorter history as a league than MLB, but since the average career length for an NFL player is shorter than for an MLB player, there's likely more turnover - but still, we're talking tens of thousands of players with just the one to come out before retirement.)
posted by gingerest at 7:25 PM on August 17, 2015
It seems to be, yeah. More than fifteen thousand major league players in history, and not one single one willing to admit he's gay? That seems like kind of an indication of culture to me."
I don't think baseball is especially more homophobic than (NFL) football, even by this rough metric (NFL has more players currently, although it has a much shorter history as a league than MLB, but since the average career length for an NFL player is shorter than for an MLB player, there's likely more turnover - but still, we're talking tens of thousands of players with just the one to come out before retirement.)
posted by gingerest at 7:25 PM on August 17, 2015
Mod note: One comment deleted. If you're inclined to enter this conversation from the perspective that somehow this is a phony issue and there's no discrimination or pressure on players about this, please reconsider.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:56 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:56 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Mason Darrow has been embraced by the Princeton football team since he told them he’s gay. Now he comes out publicly days before kickoff."
posted by gladly at 8:33 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by gladly at 8:33 AM on September 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
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posted by drezdn at 9:09 AM on August 17, 2015