The Earth-Twin Planet That Nobody Talks About
October 2, 2015 5:53 PM Subscribe
If we found it orbiting another star, this world would surely be hailed as the most Earthlike exoplanet known: the best place yet to search for alien life. No doubt you sense there is a catch, and indeed there is. It is not orbiting another star; it is the planet closest to home right here in our own solar system. The world I’m talking about is Venus: The Earth-Twin Planet That Nobody Talks About
(Imagined) familiarity breeds contempt!
posted by comealongpole at 6:16 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by comealongpole at 6:16 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
...arachnids...
Ok, googling to see if this has a meaning other than the one I know.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:18 PM on October 2, 2015 [34 favorites]
Ok, googling to see if this has a meaning other than the one I know.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:18 PM on October 2, 2015 [34 favorites]
arachnids
Ah, arachnoids. I was really worried there for a second.
posted by figurant at 6:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [48 favorites]
Ah, arachnoids. I was really worried there for a second.
posted by figurant at 6:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [48 favorites]
arachnoids pardon me.
i blame this venusian spacebeer
posted by Wolfdog at 6:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
i blame this venusian spacebeer
posted by Wolfdog at 6:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [27 favorites]
Oh good, because I found this and was like this doesn't sound legit.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:23 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
When I get to Venus can I get a dog?
posted by alex_skazat at 6:37 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 6:37 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
When I get to Venus can I get a dog?
You can name him Mars Rover.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:49 PM on October 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
You can name him Mars Rover.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:49 PM on October 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
It's also lead-meltingly hot and has an opaque atmosphere with rains of sulphuric acid. This helps explain why we don't go there very much.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:50 PM on October 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:50 PM on October 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
If we found it orbiting another star, this world would surely be hailed as the most Earthlike exoplanet known: the best place yet to search for alien life. No doubt you sense there is a catch, and indeed there is.
Climate deniers. The Koch Brothers are paying big sums of money to keep Venus and its runaway greenhouse effect out of the public consciousness.
Sadly, I could see them actually doing something like that.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:56 PM on October 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
Climate deniers. The Koch Brothers are paying big sums of money to keep Venus and its runaway greenhouse effect out of the public consciousness.
Sadly, I could see them actually doing something like that.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:56 PM on October 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
On the other hand, if we discover that Venus can support life EVEN WITH its "runaway greenhouse effect", the next big talking point will be "that means we don't have anything to worry about HERE."
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:07 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
...arachnids...
I think the Spiders were from Mars?
posted by A dead Quaker at 7:16 PM on October 2, 2015 [39 favorites]
I think the Spiders were from Mars?
posted by A dead Quaker at 7:16 PM on October 2, 2015 [39 favorites]
There was life on Venus, but it climbed onto a mountaintop and burned like a silver flame.
posted by delfin at 7:19 PM on October 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by delfin at 7:19 PM on October 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
The mountaintops, you say? They're very interesting.
posted by Wolfdog at 7:24 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Wolfdog at 7:24 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
So where were the spiders while the fly tried to break our balls
Just the beer light to guide us,
So we bitched about his fans and should we crush his sweet hands?
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:27 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just the beer light to guide us,
So we bitched about his fans and should we crush his sweet hands?
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:27 PM on October 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
How the hell do you build a probe to survive contact with sulfuric acid at 850 Fahrenheit?
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:30 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:30 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
An oldie but goodie: Venus with water
Looks like there are many other versions of that sort of image these days (that image search might get a few NSFW results)
posted by XMLicious at 7:33 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Looks like there are many other versions of that sort of image these days (that image search might get a few NSFW results)
posted by XMLicious at 7:33 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel like there's a sci-fi trilogy to be written about the human race actually being from Venus, sending it spiralling into greenhouse doom and launching a last ditch lifeboat to Earth, then ending up doing the same thing a million years later and eyeing up Mars for the next one.
posted by lucidium at 7:51 PM on October 2, 2015 [69 favorites]
posted by lucidium at 7:51 PM on October 2, 2015 [69 favorites]
Let's not even talk about what happened with Mercury, WHEW
posted by theodolite at 8:01 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 8:01 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
Do you ever hear people talking about Venus, and all its increasingly nightmare-hell properties, and think, "I sure hope I never get trapped there, somehow"? Like, the chances of that happening to you are incredibly small and not at all worth worrying about, but what if there were a chance somehow? And it sounds so horrible, just the worst.
posted by branduno at 8:04 PM on October 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by branduno at 8:04 PM on October 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
I feel like there's a sci-fi trilogy to be written about the human race actually being from Venus, sending it spiralling into greenhouse doom and launching a last ditch lifeboat to Earth, then ending up doing the same thing a million years later and eyeing up Mars for the next one.
All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.
posted by Johnny Assay at 8:05 PM on October 2, 2015 [28 favorites]
All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.
posted by Johnny Assay at 8:05 PM on October 2, 2015 [28 favorites]
All it needs is a little terraforming. Seems like a much better long-term bet than Mars.
posted by alms at 8:05 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by alms at 8:05 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wait, a sulfur cycle as complex as the carbon cycle? That implies a lot about sulfur based lifeforms.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:35 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 8:35 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Russian Venera photos are insanely cool. So is that giant mountain.
posted by Windopaene at 8:39 PM on October 2, 2015
posted by Windopaene at 8:39 PM on October 2, 2015
According to Terraforming Venus Quickly (1.1mb PDF) we could make it habitable in only two centuries with a large solar shield and dropping a Jovian Ice moon on it.
It would only cost 4,800,000,000,000,000 Pounds!
posted by nickggully at 8:46 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
It would only cost 4,800,000,000,000,000 Pounds!
posted by nickggully at 8:46 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have always stanned for Venus
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
All it needs is a little terraforming.
Only if you want to live on the surface. On the other hand, if you are will to live in the cloud colonies on Venus...
posted by fings at 8:47 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
Only if you want to live on the surface. On the other hand, if you are will to live in the cloud colonies on Venus...
posted by fings at 8:47 PM on October 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
Metafilter: the chances of that happening to you are incredibly small and not at all worth worrying about, but what if there were a chance somehow? And it sounds so horrible, just the worst
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:49 PM on October 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:49 PM on October 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
A lot of early Venus science-fiction stories had it covered in jungles and oceans. ("Clash by Night" being the classic tale of mercenaries fighting in the Venusian seas.) Then we discovered it was even more insane than that.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:56 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:56 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's also lead-meltingly hot and has an opaque atmosphere with rains of sulphuric acid.
you anti-venusians are always complaining about the weather. around here we just call that "summer" and that's just how we like it.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
you anti-venusians are always complaining about the weather. around here we just call that "summer" and that's just how we like it.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
"All Summer in a Day" by Ray Bradbury [PDF]. Very sad story, written under the premise that the clouds on Venus were water clouds, and there was one clear day every seven years.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:20 PM on October 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
Not just early, put pretty damn late. Basically up until the Soviets sucessfully landed their first probe in the late 70s and found that the surface was much more of a hellscape than anyone could possibly have imagined. It took several tries to get anything back because the early versions were under engineered for the actual conditions. Only by those early probes sending back telemetry as they were sinking through the atmosphere only to be burnt to a crisp and crushed before making it all the way down did they finally figure out that they had to build something that could survive ridiculous pressure and temperature. I suspect they thought the first one was just sending back faulty data.
I know that they were mightily disappointed when all they got back once they did make it were a couple of pictures of a fairly flat and uninteresting landscape with limited sight distance. I'm sure they were hoping for more than an hour or two of surface operations at a time.
posted by wierdo at 9:26 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know that they were mightily disappointed when all they got back once they did make it were a couple of pictures of a fairly flat and uninteresting landscape with limited sight distance. I'm sure they were hoping for more than an hour or two of surface operations at a time.
posted by wierdo at 9:26 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's actually some fairly serious proposals for colonizing Venus instead of Mars. Not on the surface, of course, but 50km above it, where the pressure is equivalent to Earth sea level and the temperature varies between just above freezing and 50°C. On a good day, you could step outside with nothing more than an oxygen tank and a light protective suit.
The Venusian atmosphere of carbon dioxide means that ordinary air - nitrogen and oxygen - floats. Fill a titanium structure with it and you have a floating home circling the planet every week, one still protected from the worst of the radiation from the atmosphere remaining above. And there's just something inexpressibly romantic about touring Venus in a floating sky-city, hoisted by balloons.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 9:45 PM on October 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
The Venusian atmosphere of carbon dioxide means that ordinary air - nitrogen and oxygen - floats. Fill a titanium structure with it and you have a floating home circling the planet every week, one still protected from the worst of the radiation from the atmosphere remaining above. And there's just something inexpressibly romantic about touring Venus in a floating sky-city, hoisted by balloons.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 9:45 PM on October 2, 2015 [18 favorites]
Another great Venusian story from Bradbury is The Long Rain. Basic premise is that relentless rain will drive you gradually insane.
posted by duffell at 9:46 PM on October 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by duffell at 9:46 PM on October 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's one planet closer to the sun,
It's one planet closer to the sun,
It's the most inhospitable place that a grown up can imagine,
and it rains all day… it rains all day…
concentrated sulphuric hassles,
kind of like you,
kind of like your friends,
kind of like Ohio,
but more like you.
-- Jerry Jerry and the Sons of Rhythm Orchestra, Venus
posted by mazola at 10:17 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's one planet closer to the sun,
It's the most inhospitable place that a grown up can imagine,
and it rains all day… it rains all day…
concentrated sulphuric hassles,
kind of like you,
kind of like your friends,
kind of like Ohio,
but more like you.
-- Jerry Jerry and the Sons of Rhythm Orchestra, Venus
posted by mazola at 10:17 PM on October 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
From the terraforming link: The production of organic molecules from carbon dioxide requires an input of hydrogen, which on Earth is taken from its abundant supply of water, but which is nearly nonexistent on Venus. Because Venus lacks a magnetic field, the upper atmosphere is exposed to direct erosion by solar wind and has lost most of its original hydrogen to space.
Not having a magnetic field means hydrogen based lifeforms are going to have a very hard time surviving. There might be some life there but it will be based on some exotic chemistry that we would have a very hard time replicating here (not too many labs working with gallons of molten S2/CO2 mixtures under insanely high pressure.
posted by benzenedream at 10:25 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not having a magnetic field means hydrogen based lifeforms are going to have a very hard time surviving. There might be some life there but it will be based on some exotic chemistry that we would have a very hard time replicating here (not too many labs working with gallons of molten S2/CO2 mixtures under insanely high pressure.
posted by benzenedream at 10:25 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Pope Guilty: How the hell do you build a probe to survive contact with sulfuric acid at 850 Fahrenheit?
Titanium/polyurethane foam outer insulation, all the sensitive bits in a chilled pressure vessel, gold-wire gaskets, synthetic quartz prisms for the cameras to look through, molybdenum disulfide lubricants, a phase-change material that absorbed a ton of heat while it gradually melted—lithium nitrate trihydrate—like a supercharged ice pack, and outside moving parts (including a drill!) that were "designed to fit and function properly only after thermal expansion to 500° C".
Oh, and also a lot of trial and error. The first few probes didn't do so well. The later ones, though, were downright miracles of engineering.
posted by traveler_ at 10:42 PM on October 2, 2015 [37 favorites]
Titanium/polyurethane foam outer insulation, all the sensitive bits in a chilled pressure vessel, gold-wire gaskets, synthetic quartz prisms for the cameras to look through, molybdenum disulfide lubricants, a phase-change material that absorbed a ton of heat while it gradually melted—lithium nitrate trihydrate—like a supercharged ice pack, and outside moving parts (including a drill!) that were "designed to fit and function properly only after thermal expansion to 500° C".
Oh, and also a lot of trial and error. The first few probes didn't do so well. The later ones, though, were downright miracles of engineering.
posted by traveler_ at 10:42 PM on October 2, 2015 [37 favorites]
David Drake wrote a book called The Jungle about mercenary navies fighting it out on Venus. That's what I remember about it, anyway, along with the (banned by treaty) "atomic" pistol.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:05 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:05 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Huh, in fact I now find that The Jungle was only part of the story, and the whole thing is available for free.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:11 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 11:11 PM on October 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Basic premise is that relentless rain will drive you gradually insane.
Portland, Oregon. Q.E.D.
just kidding, I love it here, it's generally 'good' crazy. And I love that story.
posted by rodeoclown at 11:19 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Portland, Oregon. Q.E.D.
just kidding, I love it here, it's generally 'good' crazy. And I love that story.
posted by rodeoclown at 11:19 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Basic premise is that relentless rain will drive you gradually insane.
Portland, Oregon. Q.E.D.
just kidding, I love it here, it's generally 'good' crazy. And I love that story.
2.5%-3.2% rental availability. Rents have increased 30% in the past 5 years.
Don't come here.
oh look, there's Venus, the Morning Star, so pretty!, don't you have to shower and get to work? In your own town somewhere surrounded by the people who love you?
posted by Auden at 11:38 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Portland, Oregon. Q.E.D.
just kidding, I love it here, it's generally 'good' crazy. And I love that story.
2.5%-3.2% rental availability. Rents have increased 30% in the past 5 years.
Don't come here.
oh look, there's Venus, the Morning Star, so pretty!, don't you have to shower and get to work? In your own town somewhere surrounded by the people who love you?
posted by Auden at 11:38 PM on October 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like there's a sci-fi trilogy to be written about the human race actually being from Venus, sending it spiralling into greenhouse doom and launching a last ditch lifeboat to Earth, then ending up doing the same thing a million years later and eyeing up Mars for the next one
Add some sparkly alien vampires and you've got yourself a sale!
posted by sevenyearlurk at 12:35 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Add some sparkly alien vampires and you've got yourself a sale!
posted by sevenyearlurk at 12:35 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
NASA Study Proposes Airships, Cloud Cities for Venus Exploration
posted by ShooBoo at 12:54 AM on October 3, 2015
posted by ShooBoo at 12:54 AM on October 3, 2015
>All it needs is a little terraforming.
Ummm ... no :)
There is know known technology existing today that could make Venus Habitable and nothing that we could think of that could do the job in less than a timeframe involving many centuries.. Even if you managed to somehow thin the atmosphere and lower the temperature (which would likely take centuries just to cool) then you are left with a lifeless hunk of sulfuric acid blasted rock .
Meanwhile Mars has water, survivable temperatures (with a bit of help) and could conceivable be given a better atmosphere in under a century's time if we were willing to bombard it with water rich comets and that is with technology that is all within 50 years of our reach.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:35 AM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ummm ... no :)
There is know known technology existing today that could make Venus Habitable and nothing that we could think of that could do the job in less than a timeframe involving many centuries.. Even if you managed to somehow thin the atmosphere and lower the temperature (which would likely take centuries just to cool) then you are left with a lifeless hunk of sulfuric acid blasted rock .
Meanwhile Mars has water, survivable temperatures (with a bit of help) and could conceivable be given a better atmosphere in under a century's time if we were willing to bombard it with water rich comets and that is with technology that is all within 50 years of our reach.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:35 AM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
>Not having a magnetic field means hydrogen based lifeforms are going to have a very hard time surviving
OK - we're really carbon based rather than H based and not having a magnetic field (or a very small one ) means that there are more charged particles from the sun that get through which cause mutations - which is solved by going underground or in caves. Nothing exotic needed.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:42 AM on October 3, 2015
OK - we're really carbon based rather than H based and not having a magnetic field (or a very small one ) means that there are more charged particles from the sun that get through which cause mutations - which is solved by going underground or in caves. Nothing exotic needed.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:42 AM on October 3, 2015
How the hell do you build a probe to survive contact with sulfuric acid at 850 Fahrenheit?
If we figure that out, it might be applicable to building long lasting structures under the ocean. Maybe.
There's actually some fairly serious proposals for colonizing Venus instead of Mars.
Those are pipe dreams, evaporating quicker than probe on Venus.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 AM on October 3, 2015
If we figure that out, it might be applicable to building long lasting structures under the ocean. Maybe.
There's actually some fairly serious proposals for colonizing Venus instead of Mars.
Those are pipe dreams, evaporating quicker than probe on Venus.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:08 AM on October 3, 2015
Magellan was a great mission, and sadly underappreciated. It was built out of left-over parts from other missions - mostly Voyager, which supplied the bus and the high gain antenna, and was the first interplanetary mission after a decade-long gap. It was also the first one I was able to follow over the Internet via email status updates and Usenet - ah, the happy days of sci.space - and even though I seem to remember it had some scary moments earlier on when it looked like it might not work at all, it did a bang-up job. Was sad when it was sent spiralling in.
Just the one experiment, too, apart from the radio science done on the comms link.
I don't think there's anything planned for Venus, except a possible Russian mission, venera-D, that is at least delayed and looks likely to be cancelled There's not that much planned full stop - there's Juno on its way to Jupiter, due next year, but then nothing beyond Mars until possibly 2022 and a European Jupiter orbiter. Osiris-Rex is an asteroid sample and return mission due to go up next year, BepiColombo is a Mercury orbiter with a 2021 arrival, Nasa has one Mars lander and one roer to go, and ESA has one Mars orbiter/lander package. And that's it, I think.
Venera-D was going to be very funky, with an orbiter, a lander, a set of balloon-lofted atmospheric probes and possibly even an untethered kite that could stay up in that 50km zone for weeks or months. Initlally it was supposed to have got to Venus in 2014, but any launch has been pushed back to at least 2026, and I don't think anything's actually been built, nor is there any test infrastructure. I don't really know where any of the Russian plans are - there's a Ganymede lander, for example - as they change a lot and get caught in politics.
posted by Devonian at 8:41 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just the one experiment, too, apart from the radio science done on the comms link.
I don't think there's anything planned for Venus, except a possible Russian mission, venera-D, that is at least delayed and looks likely to be cancelled There's not that much planned full stop - there's Juno on its way to Jupiter, due next year, but then nothing beyond Mars until possibly 2022 and a European Jupiter orbiter. Osiris-Rex is an asteroid sample and return mission due to go up next year, BepiColombo is a Mercury orbiter with a 2021 arrival, Nasa has one Mars lander and one roer to go, and ESA has one Mars orbiter/lander package. And that's it, I think.
Venera-D was going to be very funky, with an orbiter, a lander, a set of balloon-lofted atmospheric probes and possibly even an untethered kite that could stay up in that 50km zone for weeks or months. Initlally it was supposed to have got to Venus in 2014, but any launch has been pushed back to at least 2026, and I don't think anything's actually been built, nor is there any test infrastructure. I don't really know where any of the Russian plans are - there's a Ganymede lander, for example - as they change a lot and get caught in politics.
posted by Devonian at 8:41 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Venus must have received some unholy smack to slowly rotate in opposition to the rest of the system. Time will heal all wounds. Meanwhile, who wants some smoking hawt Lead futures? Heavy metal? Hey! Venusian music rhymes better. Oh, and fascinating info in this post.
posted by Oyéah at 8:54 AM on October 3, 2015
posted by Oyéah at 8:54 AM on October 3, 2015
Personally, I think we should throw our considerable imaginations and willpower behind terraforming Earth. Just think of the money we'd save on rocket fuel!
I do want more Venus probes though. For purely selfish reasons, as photos from planetary and lunar surfaces give me the heebee-jeebees, in a good way. It is just such a fascinating and weird place, and it's right there.
WRT the Cloud City idea: would you seriously only need a breathing apparatus and light suit to go outside? No blasts of sulfuric acid to worry about?
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I do want more Venus probes though. For purely selfish reasons, as photos from planetary and lunar surfaces give me the heebee-jeebees, in a good way. It is just such a fascinating and weird place, and it's right there.
WRT the Cloud City idea: would you seriously only need a breathing apparatus and light suit to go outside? No blasts of sulfuric acid to worry about?
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:47 AM on October 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
In the Leviathan Wakes series, the asteroid Eros, stuffed full of alien supermutatormolecules and a million humans worth of biomaterial, flies itself into Venus and splatters across the surface, then uses the heat and mineral atmosphere to make a huge wormhole machine.
It's kind of a great series.
posted by Evilspork at 10:50 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's kind of a great series.
posted by Evilspork at 10:50 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, I have had a ... fear/fascination with Venus since seeing the aforementioned "All Summer In A Day" as a movie, in the 2nd grade. It seriously shook me. Made my heart ache for poor bullied Venusian kids for years.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:57 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:57 AM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival: It's also lead-meltingly hot and has an opaque atmosphere with rains of sulphuric acid. This helps explain why we don't go there very much.
posted by IAmBroom at 11:08 AM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
"Despite the harsh conditions on the surface, the atmospheric pressure and temperature at about 50 km to 65 km above the surface of the planet is nearly the same as that of the Earth, making its upper atmosphere the most Earth-like area in the Solar System, even more so than the surface of Mars. Due to the similarity in pressure and temperature and the fact that breathable air (21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen) is a lifting gas on Venus in the same way that helium is a lifting gas on Earth, the upper atmosphere has been proposed as a location for both exploration and colonization.Venus is potentially habitable as a literal cloud-city.
posted by IAmBroom at 11:08 AM on October 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
"OK - we're really carbon based rather than H based"
Glucose, like all sugars, is a carbohydrate. We have some pretty serious dependencies on Hydrogen.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate
posted by effugas at 1:42 PM on October 3, 2015
Glucose, like all sugars, is a carbohydrate. We have some pretty serious dependencies on Hydrogen.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate
posted by effugas at 1:42 PM on October 3, 2015
There was a brief thought experiment to do manned Venus flybys using Apollo equipment. Minimum trip of 123 days in space for a couple of hours in orbit.
They've also done some insanely cool Doppler mapping of Venus from the radio telescope at Arecibo. I swear I saw some better-resolution photos more recently but I can't find them at the moment.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2015
They've also done some insanely cool Doppler mapping of Venus from the radio telescope at Arecibo. I swear I saw some better-resolution photos more recently but I can't find them at the moment.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:00 PM on October 3, 2015
Venus must have received some unholy smack to slowly rotate in opposition to the rest of the system.
I intended to comment that this used to be almost a consensus, but has been succeeded by a view that it didn't flip at all:
posted by jamjam at 2:10 PM on October 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I intended to comment that this used to be almost a consensus, but has been succeeded by a view that it didn't flip at all:
Current theory holds that Venus initially spun in the same direction as most other planets and, in a way, still does: it simply flipped its axis 180 degrees at some point. In other words, it spins in the same direction it always has, just upside down, so that looking at it from other planets makes the spin seem backward. Scientists have argued that the sun's gravitational pull on the planet's very dense atmosphere could have caused strong atmospheric tides. Such tides, combined with friction between Venus's mantle and core, could have caused the flip in the first place.That from a SciAm article in 2001 -- but one of the leading contemporary theories among many has resurrected the "unholy smack" and pushed it back a few billion years, apparently:
Now Alexandre Correira and Jacques Laskar suggest that Venus may not have flipped at all. They propose instead that its rotation slowed to a standstill and then reversed direction. ...
Venus may have formed from the solar nebula with a different rotation period and obliquity, reaching its current state because of chaotic spin changes caused by planetary perturbations and tidal effects on its dense atmosphere, a change that would have occurred over the course of billions of years. The rotation period of Venus may represent an equilibrium state between tidal locking to the Sun's gravitation, which tends to slow rotation, and an atmospheric tide created by solar heating of the thick Venusian atmosphere.[92][93] The 584-day average interval between successive close approaches to Earth is almost exactly equal to 5 Venusian solar days,[94] but the hypothesis of a spin–orbit resonance with Earth has been discounted.[95]I was startled to learn that, based on the sixteen year sample window "between the Magellan spacecraft and Venus Express visits", Venus' rotation is slowing down 6.5 minutes per Venusian sidereal day (116.75 Earth days). In comparison, Earth's rotation slows down by a cumulative second or so per year every few years.
Venus has no natural satellites.[96] It has several co-orbital asteroids: the quasi-satellite 2002 VE68[97][98] and two other temporary co-orbitals, 2001 CK32 and 2012 XE133.[99] In the 17th century, Giovanni Cassini reported a moon orbiting Venus, which was named Neith and numerous sightings were reported over the following 200 years, but most were determined to be stars in the vicinity. Alex Alemi's and David Stevenson's 2006 study of models of the early Solar System at the California Institute of Technology shows Venus likely had at least one moon created by a huge impact event billions of years ago.[100] About 10 million years later, according to the study, another impact reversed the planet's spin direction and caused the Venusian moon gradually to spiral inward until it collided with Venus.[101] If later impacts created moons, these were removed in the same way.[emphasis added] An alternative explanation for the lack of satellites is the effect of strong solar tides, which can destabilize large satellites orbiting the inner terrestrial planets.[96]
posted by jamjam at 2:10 PM on October 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Glucose, like all sugars, is a carbohydrate. We have some pretty serious dependencies on Hydrogen.
The reason we are said to be carbon based rather than hydrogen based is that C has 4 possible binding sites whereas H just has one. C serves as the backbone for most of the organic molecules upon which we're based and H just sort of hangs off it at various points. Saying we are H based is like saying our respiration is nitrogen based simply because there far more nitrogen in the atmosphere
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:32 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
The reason we are said to be carbon based rather than hydrogen based is that C has 4 possible binding sites whereas H just has one. C serves as the backbone for most of the organic molecules upon which we're based and H just sort of hangs off it at various points. Saying we are H based is like saying our respiration is nitrogen based simply because there far more nitrogen in the atmosphere
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:32 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Scientists have argued that the sun's gravitational pull on the planet's very dense atmosphere could have caused strong atmospheric tides. Such tides, combined with friction between Venus's mantle and core, could have caused the flip in the first place.
That is so fucking ridiculously awesome.
posted by Evilspork at 5:07 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
That is so fucking ridiculously awesome.
posted by Evilspork at 5:07 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Saying we are H based is like saying our respiration is nitrogen based simply because there far more nitrogen in the atmosphere
To be more accurate, life on earth is SPONCH-based (sulfur, phosphorus, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen). While there are organisms which have evolved to be extremely frugal with phosphorus or sulfur, but every single biological molecule in animals is H based. Fats are mostly CH, carbohydrates are a mix of CHO, amino acids are NHCOS, DNA is PCHON. Water is H20, alcohols are CHO. Note every single one of these has hydrogen, and except for water they all have carbon. If you know of any organisms which are H-free, I would like to hear about it. There is a huge amount of biochemistry which is all based on H atoms moving around and their large scale interactions.
OK - we're really carbon based rather than H based and not having a magnetic field (or a very small one ) means that there are more charged particles from the sun that get through which cause mutations - which is solved by going underground or in caves.
The big problem is that all the light weight molecules in your atmosphere (like H2) will get peeled off by the solar winds eventually. H20 will cycle through being H2 and O2, and over a very long time the H2 will all fly off into space. This is why Venus has an atmosphere composed of relatively heavy molecules which the solar wind could not scrape off. If you try terraforming you are committed to getting more H2 (likely as water) in the long term, since Venus will not maintain a steady state level of hydrogen (granted, the dissipation may take millennia).
The risk from charged particles if you are actually in the atmosphere is pretty low, since all those high molecular weight particles will block solar radiation and charged particles.
posted by benzenedream at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be more accurate, life on earth is SPONCH-based (sulfur, phosphorus, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, hydrogen). While there are organisms which have evolved to be extremely frugal with phosphorus or sulfur, but every single biological molecule in animals is H based. Fats are mostly CH, carbohydrates are a mix of CHO, amino acids are NHCOS, DNA is PCHON. Water is H20, alcohols are CHO. Note every single one of these has hydrogen, and except for water they all have carbon. If you know of any organisms which are H-free, I would like to hear about it. There is a huge amount of biochemistry which is all based on H atoms moving around and their large scale interactions.
OK - we're really carbon based rather than H based and not having a magnetic field (or a very small one ) means that there are more charged particles from the sun that get through which cause mutations - which is solved by going underground or in caves.
The big problem is that all the light weight molecules in your atmosphere (like H2) will get peeled off by the solar winds eventually. H20 will cycle through being H2 and O2, and over a very long time the H2 will all fly off into space. This is why Venus has an atmosphere composed of relatively heavy molecules which the solar wind could not scrape off. If you try terraforming you are committed to getting more H2 (likely as water) in the long term, since Venus will not maintain a steady state level of hydrogen (granted, the dissipation may take millennia).
The risk from charged particles if you are actually in the atmosphere is pretty low, since all those high molecular weight particles will block solar radiation and charged particles.
posted by benzenedream at 5:12 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was startled to learn that, based on the sixteen year sample window "between the Magellan spacecraft and Venus Express visits", Venus' rotation is slowing down 6.5 minutes per Venusian sidereal day (116.75 Earth days). In comparison, Earth's rotation slows down by a cumulative second or so per year every few years.
Wait. So the Egyptians had a day more than 30 minutes longer than ours to build the pyramids? Mystery solved!
posted by skyscraper at 5:23 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wait. So the Egyptians had a day more than 30 minutes longer than ours to build the pyramids? Mystery solved!
posted by skyscraper at 5:23 PM on October 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Aren't there studies showing natural circadian rythms are longer than 24hours? Please tell me somebody's noticed the connection.
posted by skyscraper at 5:30 PM on October 3, 2015
posted by skyscraper at 5:30 PM on October 3, 2015
So the Egyptians had a day more than 30 minutes longer than ours to build the pyramids?
Other way around. The Earth was spinning faster then, so they had even less time in a day[*] to get things done than you do.
[*] I'd estimate < 0.1 seconds shorter, give the Earth slowing at 1.7 miliseconds/century. But 620 million years ago the day was 21.9±0.4 hours
posted by fings at 6:35 PM on October 3, 2015
Other way around. The Earth was spinning faster then, so they had even less time in a day[*] to get things done than you do.
[*] I'd estimate < 0.1 seconds shorter, give the Earth slowing at 1.7 miliseconds/century. But 620 million years ago the day was 21.9±0.4 hours
posted by fings at 6:35 PM on October 3, 2015
21 hours, that's pretty fast! Those dinosaurs must have been holding on for dear life! The moonrise would pur't near knock yer eye out.
posted by Oyéah at 6:41 PM on October 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 6:41 PM on October 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
It doesn't matter whether you say Earth life is "based" on C or H; the key is there's just no H to keep our form of life going on Venus. Although this does seem strange, surely it's plausible H is minable from surface minerals, where solar activity couldn't strip it?
posted by effugas at 2:53 AM on October 4, 2015
posted by effugas at 2:53 AM on October 4, 2015
> Venus' rotation is slowing down 6.5 minutes per Venusian sidereal day (116.75 Earth days).
It is not.
Someone is misinterpreting some recent studies which indicated that our measurements of Venus's rotation were off by 6.5 minutes.
Some basic math would indicate that if Venus's rotation were slowing by that amount then it would have been tidally locked to the sun in just a couple hundred thousand years.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:09 AM on October 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
It is not.
Someone is misinterpreting some recent studies which indicated that our measurements of Venus's rotation were off by 6.5 minutes.
Some basic math would indicate that if Venus's rotation were slowing by that amount then it would have been tidally locked to the sun in just a couple hundred thousand years.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:09 AM on October 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, there is some hydrogen in all that sulphuric acid. Whether there's much underground, who can say. You're not going to get much in the way of hydrates, that's for sure.
posted by Devonian at 10:48 AM on October 4, 2015
posted by Devonian at 10:48 AM on October 4, 2015
21 hours, that's pretty fast! Those dinosaurs must have been holding on for dear life!
That's actually what killed them. They just couldn't hold on any longer and were flung off into the cold of space.
posted by webmutant at 12:29 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's actually what killed them. They just couldn't hold on any longer and were flung off into the cold of space.
posted by webmutant at 12:29 PM on October 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
PBS Space Time: Should We Colonize Venus Instead of Mars?
posted by homunculus at 12:10 AM on October 5, 2015
posted by homunculus at 12:10 AM on October 5, 2015
I can't help but feel Venus lost the cold war. I think the US in the 80s viewed it as having been 'done' by the Russians and focussed on Mars (as the Russian landers there all failed). I suspect if the successes had been reversed, the USA would have looked harder at Venus, and probably Mercury and asteroids, too, rather than the baroque Mars program. We would talk about Mars as a dead world, like the moon, unworthy of further scrutiny.
Given what we have learned of Mars, this was probably all for the best.
posted by bystander at 1:03 AM on October 6, 2015
Given what we have learned of Mars, this was probably all for the best.
posted by bystander at 1:03 AM on October 6, 2015
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posted by Wolfdog at 6:12 PM on October 2, 2015 [48 favorites]