You gonna rock down to Electric Avenue?
April 1, 2016 7:22 AM Subscribe
Tesla Model 3 announced. 215 mile range, $35K for base model, available in "late 2017". Tesla took over 125,000 pre-orders in under 24 hours before the car was even unveiled. If you want an EV now, the Nissan Leaf is cheaper than the Model 3, but only has a 107 mile range. The Chevy Bolt will be out later this year with a range similar to Tesla's car.
In other EV news, 30% of vehicles sold in Norway last year were plugin electric, while China is working on a home grown solution. But with gas prices still at near historic lows, will the EV revolution come fast enough to impact climate change?
Oh right, I forgot the "Not an April Fools Joke" tag.
posted by gwint at 7:28 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by gwint at 7:28 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
But will it be enough to absolve Elon Musk of the sins of PayPal?
posted by fairmettle at 7:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 7:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
One thing not touched upon in the OP: the coming battle with car dealerships. Here's hoping they all die!
PS. If you were going to reply to this with a "yeah but what about" please take my reply of "nah fuck em" as given.
posted by selfnoise at 7:31 AM on April 1, 2016 [24 favorites]
PS. If you were going to reply to this with a "yeah but what about" please take my reply of "nah fuck em" as given.
posted by selfnoise at 7:31 AM on April 1, 2016 [24 favorites]
I want.
This might be in the mix of possibilities for us, depending on a few things, when it arrives. But I'll admit: I just want it.
posted by Dashy at 7:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
This might be in the mix of possibilities for us, depending on a few things, when it arrives. But I'll admit: I just want it.
posted by Dashy at 7:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I had the opportunity to drive a Model S a few months ago and to be honest I wasn't that impressed. The entire feel of the car had a kind of plastic quality to it. I like what Musk is doing for the EV industry but I personally felt like that car (while filled with lots of cool gadgets and technology) was of a cheap material build. I was only in the car for about 40 minutes, but that was my gut reaction. It'll be interesting to see how the consumer market reacts to this vehicle.
posted by Fizz at 7:33 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 7:33 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
So is late 2017 when it will be available for generally purchase? Or is that date for preorders. I've heard the rumor of 2019 for those that hadn't preordered but I can't imagine they can't manufacture enough to meet demand.
I want one of these sooo bad.
posted by Twain Device at 7:34 AM on April 1, 2016
I want one of these sooo bad.
posted by Twain Device at 7:34 AM on April 1, 2016
I don't like the grille treatment. I understand not needing any airflow to go into anywhere, but it seems a bit dumb to leave a flat fronted area like that. It looks clumsy and can't be as aerodynamically efficient (nor as pretty) as a more sculpted front end.
posted by Brockles at 7:35 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Brockles at 7:35 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
I want one but I need charging stations across US 2 and they're a long way from that.
posted by Ber at 7:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 7:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, I really wish this trend for larger wheels would go away. Smaller cars with big wheels ride like crap. Ride comfort takes a serious hit for a bit of a 'preferred look'.
posted by Brockles at 7:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Brockles at 7:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
Still not cheap and it's the base model price. Still, the range works for me but only as a commuter car since there are no charging stations close enough.
posted by tommasz at 7:38 AM on April 1, 2016
posted by tommasz at 7:38 AM on April 1, 2016
The grill thing is so weird. I'm with you but I wonder if future generations will not even notice it. Definitely bothers me on the Model S, it looks cheap.
Totally agreed with larger wheels. Ugh.
posted by selfnoise at 7:41 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Totally agreed with larger wheels. Ugh.
posted by selfnoise at 7:41 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hate the interior, it looks like they just bolted a 15" monitor to the dash.
posted by octothorpe at 7:41 AM on April 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:41 AM on April 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
I don't like the grille treatment. I understand not needing any airflow to go into anywhere, but it seems a bit dumb to leave a flat fronted area like that.
It's the part that says "This is a car of the future. I am driving a car of the future, and you are not."
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:42 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
It's the part that says "This is a car of the future. I am driving a car of the future, and you are not."
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:42 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
I don't like the grille treatment. I understand not needing any airflow to go into anywhere, but it seems a bit dumb to leave a flat fronted area like that. It looks clumsy and can't be as aerodynamically efficient (nor as pretty) as a more sculpted front end.
Looks like the perfect place to put a shark-teeth nose art decal to me.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:42 AM on April 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
Looks like the perfect place to put a shark-teeth nose art decal to me.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:42 AM on April 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
There's a Tesla showroom where I live and there was a big line the day before this announcement outside the store for people wanting to place a deposit on a new car UNSEEN. We live in interesting times.
FWIW, I popped into the store one day to poke around and the salesperson was my ideal of who I'd want to deal with if I were buying a car: polite, not doing the hard-sell, just showed me around the car in a low-key, factual way. He also prompted me to sit in it which I never would've done (the Model S is fantastic on the inside). He also laughed at all my jokes, even the bad ones, but for the price of the car, I guess they'll do that. It did leave me with a much warmer feeling about the company.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
FWIW, I popped into the store one day to poke around and the salesperson was my ideal of who I'd want to deal with if I were buying a car: polite, not doing the hard-sell, just showed me around the car in a low-key, factual way. He also prompted me to sit in it which I never would've done (the Model S is fantastic on the inside). He also laughed at all my jokes, even the bad ones, but for the price of the car, I guess they'll do that. It did leave me with a much warmer feeling about the company.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 7:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Looks like the perfect place to put a shark-teeth nose art decal to me.
OR GOOGLY EYES.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [50 favorites]
OR GOOGLY EYES.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [50 favorites]
Pre-ordered one. I think that the front of the car looks odd now because we aren't used to seeing cars without grills. Over time, people won't give it a second thought.
posted by Ostara at 7:46 AM on April 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Ostara at 7:46 AM on April 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm holding out for a car that will run off my own body fat.
posted by srboisvert at 7:49 AM on April 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 7:49 AM on April 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
Has anyone come up with a good solution to the problem of "I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
posted by backseatpilot at 7:49 AM on April 1, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by backseatpilot at 7:49 AM on April 1, 2016 [33 favorites]
I don't like the grille treatment...it seems a bit dumb to leave a flat fronted area like that.
Where will you mount the machine guns? You'd think a Bond villain would keep that in mind.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Where will you mount the machine guns? You'd think a Bond villain would keep that in mind.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I noticed the grille as well and immediately thought of the Avanti. I am definitely interested in a Tesla, they seem pretty cool, but no way am I putting money down on a car that won't be available for another year. Wouldn't mind a model S, but not willing to spend that kind of money unless I win the lottery or get an inheritance I wasn't expecting or something.
posted by TedW at 7:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 7:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
That interior is just dire, and the materials look like 90's Korean import level of quality.
I get that this is still potentially a huge moment in the market but there are a lot of people out there (myself included) that won't buy a soulless, bland car.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 7:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I get that this is still potentially a huge moment in the market but there are a lot of people out there (myself included) that won't buy a soulless, bland car.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 7:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've heard the rumor of 2019 for those that hadn't preordered but I can't imagine they can't manufacture enough to meet demand.
They are still weeks behind on orders for the Model S. Based on how fast they can deliver their current car (~50k a year), they already have over 2 years worth of preorders.
posted by sideshow at 7:52 AM on April 1, 2016
They are still weeks behind on orders for the Model S. Based on how fast they can deliver their current car (~50k a year), they already have over 2 years worth of preorders.
posted by sideshow at 7:52 AM on April 1, 2016
It's like an uglier, less functional Mazda3.
posted by indubitable at 7:52 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by indubitable at 7:52 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
Two people on my fb feed announced that they had preordered today. I can't understand agreeing to purchase a car that not only have you not driven, but hasn't even been fully sorted out. Especially from a company with an extensive history of production delays that hasn't yet brought a true commodity level mass production vehicle to market. Which is what they say they are aiming for. I guess it's sort of trying to make the market give you what you want, but still that's a lot of trust
posted by dudemanlives at 7:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by dudemanlives at 7:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also it's terribly ugly.
posted by dudemanlives at 7:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by dudemanlives at 7:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
"I'm holding out for a car that will run off my own body fat."
You're thinking of a bicycle.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [193 favorites]
You're thinking of a bicycle.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [193 favorites]
Is there a link I've missed that explains how an all-glass car roof doesn't create a solar oven?
posted by bartleby at 7:57 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 7:57 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Electric Blue
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:59 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:59 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm holding out for a car that will run off my own body fat.
A bicycle?
I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
In a few years there will be outlets in parking meters.
posted by bracems at 8:01 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
A bicycle?
I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
In a few years there will be outlets in parking meters.
posted by bracems at 8:01 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there a link I've missed that explains how an all-glass car roof doesn't create a solar oven?
posted by bartleby at 9:57 AM on April 1 [+] [!]
Even worse, that is a single piece of glass. Hope your insurance has good coverage and a low deductible for stone chip repairs.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 8:02 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Musk has said the plan is to produce 500,000 cars per year by 2020.
posted by gwint at 8:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by gwint at 8:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tesla stations in NYC on verge of outnumbering gas stations
posted by gwint at 8:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by gwint at 8:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I put a deposit down on one, sight unseen. I have ridden in a Model S and it is pretty amazing, especially the autopilot. I agree the interior isn't particularly nice, especially for the price, but would love to be driven to work so I could focus on other things in the car.
But one thing to remember about the deposit - it is refundable. Therefore, if you were saving the $1,000 anyway all you are likely losing is the ability to spend the money on something else and the interest that would accrue. Since interest rates are low, if it takes two years for me to get to the point where I have to commit to buying it, I would have lost only $60 at 3% interest. That is a pretty cheap option on what might be a pretty cool car.
(Edit: ok, and you have to assume that Tesla doesn't go under before you get your refund. Perhaps I need to go buy some long-term puts on Tesla to hedge that).
posted by procrastination at 8:07 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
But one thing to remember about the deposit - it is refundable. Therefore, if you were saving the $1,000 anyway all you are likely losing is the ability to spend the money on something else and the interest that would accrue. Since interest rates are low, if it takes two years for me to get to the point where I have to commit to buying it, I would have lost only $60 at 3% interest. That is a pretty cheap option on what might be a pretty cool car.
(Edit: ok, and you have to assume that Tesla doesn't go under before you get your refund. Perhaps I need to go buy some long-term puts on Tesla to hedge that).
posted by procrastination at 8:07 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
Having finally looked at the photos, I will say that I had a very visceral reaction to that grill. It reminds me of the body horror film trope of your skin covering over your mouth while you're screaming, pawing at it...
posted by backseatpilot at 8:08 AM on April 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by backseatpilot at 8:08 AM on April 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
The Florida Turnpike has added charging stations at all of the rest stops. It's pretty awesome.
posted by synthetik at 8:09 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by synthetik at 8:09 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I drive a plug in hybrid now and I am really looking forward to the 200+ mile range. I want all of the technology, now.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sophie1 at 8:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm holding out for a car that will run off my own body fat.
Be careful what you wish for. (previously)
posted by XMLicious at 8:11 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Tesla stations in NYC on verge of outnumbering gas stations.
Well, yes, but what the article actually says is that Tesla stations will soon outnumber gas stations in Manhattan. That's probably true, but it's not saying much. Gas stations in Manhattan are about as common as feral giraffes, and it would hardly be news that Tesla stations outnumbered those. I mean, it would be a good Post headline, but it wouldn't be news.
posted by The Bellman at 8:12 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
Well, yes, but what the article actually says is that Tesla stations will soon outnumber gas stations in Manhattan. That's probably true, but it's not saying much. Gas stations in Manhattan are about as common as feral giraffes, and it would hardly be news that Tesla stations outnumbered those. I mean, it would be a good Post headline, but it wouldn't be news.
posted by The Bellman at 8:12 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
The whole EV thing reminds me of something I once read on Twitter by @GSElevator:
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
Just saying...
posted by rippersid at 8:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
Just saying...
posted by rippersid at 8:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
Can I get the interior in soft Corinthian leather?
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
215 mile range
Naturally, my parents live 217 miles away (according to Google Maps; no joke).
Might hold out a bit longer so I can complete my only recurring long roadtrip without having to bite my nails for the last 10 miles or so....
posted by schmod at 8:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Naturally, my parents live 217 miles away (according to Google Maps; no joke).
Might hold out a bit longer so I can complete my only recurring long roadtrip without having to bite my nails for the last 10 miles or so....
posted by schmod at 8:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
This would have been true a few decades ago, but coal produces less than 30% of electricity in the U.S., and that number is only going down.
posted by gwint at 8:20 AM on April 1, 2016 [49 favorites]
This would have been true a few decades ago, but coal produces less than 30% of electricity in the U.S., and that number is only going down.
posted by gwint at 8:20 AM on April 1, 2016 [49 favorites]
Naturally, my parents live 217 miles away
Turn off the car at the top of a couple of hills and you'll be fine.
posted by Etrigan at 8:20 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Turn off the car at the top of a couple of hills and you'll be fine.
posted by Etrigan at 8:20 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
215 mile range
Naturally, my parents live 217 miles away (according to Google Maps; no joke).
Might hold out a bit longer so I can complete my only recurring long roadtrip without having to bite my nails for the last 10 miles or so....
Just drive faster, you'll get there sooner. Problem solved.
posted by Fizz at 8:20 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
Naturally, my parents live 217 miles away (according to Google Maps; no joke).
Might hold out a bit longer so I can complete my only recurring long roadtrip without having to bite my nails for the last 10 miles or so....
Just drive faster, you'll get there sooner. Problem solved.
posted by Fizz at 8:20 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
Can you really only control heat/AC/radio/basically any dashboard function by touch screen? That seems so dangerous! Is it voice activated or something? Being able to do that stuff without looking seems like a safety feature to me. Then again I don't think anyone I know owns a car newer than 2010 or so, so maybe I'm just behind the times.
posted by sonmi at 8:22 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by sonmi at 8:22 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Has anyone come up with a good solution to the problem of "I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
Yup. Gas-powered generator.
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yup. Gas-powered generator.
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
I had the opportunity to drive a Model S a few months ago and to be honest I wasn't that impressed. The entire feel of the car had a kind of plastic quality to it.
I agree with this. I've spent a lot of time in Model Ss, as well as a wide variety of cars between $50k-$100k. The Tesla has the worst interior of almost all of them. And for me it's not just about material quality. There's a fundamental philosophical issue here. Tesla thinks it's a GOOD thing to have a massive iPad embedded in the dashboard. I can't stand it. I have to assume that ethos comes straight from the top, so I'm not holding my breath for Tesla to come out with a car I'll want.
posted by primethyme at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
I agree with this. I've spent a lot of time in Model Ss, as well as a wide variety of cars between $50k-$100k. The Tesla has the worst interior of almost all of them. And for me it's not just about material quality. There's a fundamental philosophical issue here. Tesla thinks it's a GOOD thing to have a massive iPad embedded in the dashboard. I can't stand it. I have to assume that ethos comes straight from the top, so I'm not holding my breath for Tesla to come out with a car I'll want.
posted by primethyme at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
And even if your grid is coal or natural gas powered (like it is here in Utah) the efficiency of power generation on large power turbines exceeds the local pollutant generation from gasoline. Or throw some panels on your roof and abate that even further. That doesn't solve the dirty materials build of the car itself, but you have to start somewhere.
posted by msbutah at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by msbutah at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
Turn off the car at the top of a couple of hills and you'll be fine.
Just cut a Fred Flintstone-style hole in the floorboards!
posted by indubitable at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Just cut a Fred Flintstone-style hole in the floorboards!
posted by indubitable at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
We have a 2000 square foot flat roof on our garage so I was thinking about figuring out how many solar panels it would take to be able to charge an electric car via the sun.
posted by octothorpe at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
We have a 2000 square foot flat roof on our garage so I was thinking about figuring out how many solar panels it would take to be able to charge an electric car via the sun.
posted by octothorpe at 8:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Golf carts for everyone!
posted by Confess, Fletch at 8:25 AM on April 1, 2016
posted by Confess, Fletch at 8:25 AM on April 1, 2016
Can you really only control heat/AC/radio/basically any dashboard function by touch screen? That seems so dangerous! Is it voice activated or something? Being able to do that stuff without looking seems like a safety feature to me.
Oh wow, I hope so. I reach for many controls while I'm driving, and with physical controls I can do it by feel while keeping my eyes on the road. Can you imagine having to activate wind shield wipers with a damn center-mounted touchscreen? I really hope it doesn't come to that.
posted by indubitable at 8:25 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh wow, I hope so. I reach for many controls while I'm driving, and with physical controls I can do it by feel while keeping my eyes on the road. Can you imagine having to activate wind shield wipers with a damn center-mounted touchscreen? I really hope it doesn't come to that.
posted by indubitable at 8:25 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
No front grille. Less range than a Mazda 3. Lame.
posted by bonehead at 8:26 AM on April 1, 2016 [57 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 8:26 AM on April 1, 2016 [57 favorites]
We have a 2000 square foot flat roof on our garage so I was thinking about figuring out how many solar panels it would take to be able to charge an electric car via the sun.
I was thinking the same thing! The problem is that the car is with me at work most days and would miss that charging time. So, how about I work from home! Then the car I no longer need to get to work would be able to charge all the time.
posted by procrastination at 8:27 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was thinking the same thing! The problem is that the car is with me at work most days and would miss that charging time. So, how about I work from home! Then the car I no longer need to get to work would be able to charge all the time.
posted by procrastination at 8:27 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Speaking of flat roofs with solar panels on them -- I am frankly surprised that the gigafactory does not appear to have solar panels on its massive flat roof.
They seem to be part of the plan, though, so maybe they will come in due time.
posted by cubby at 8:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
They seem to be part of the plan, though, so maybe they will come in due time.
posted by cubby at 8:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was just thinking this through, a trip to southernmost Utah. Stay in Green River, because Moab is 240. Then get up early after charging, and get breakfast in Moab, on your way to the rest of your trip. Take some solar panels to put on top of the car for while you are hiking out for a week. Maybe. Maybe that glass roof facilitates solar collection. I will just wait for the electric VW Westfalia van.
posted by Oyéah at 8:31 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 8:31 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
procrastination: "I was thinking the same thing! The problem is that the car is with me at work most days and would miss that charging time. So, how about I work from home! Then the car I no longer need to get to work would be able to charge all the time."
We have free charging stations at work so at least if I keep this job, that's not an issue.
posted by octothorpe at 8:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
We have free charging stations at work so at least if I keep this job, that's not an issue.
posted by octothorpe at 8:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
You're thinking of a bicycle.
You magnificent bastard. I just bought you MeFi Gold.
On Topic: What is the DEAL with a non-tactile interface?!
posted by entropicamericana at 8:37 AM on April 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
You magnificent bastard. I just bought you MeFi Gold.
On Topic: What is the DEAL with a non-tactile interface?!
posted by entropicamericana at 8:37 AM on April 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yeah. The touchscreen is a really glaring UX fault -- and one that's being repeated by many other automakers. Just like software developers are falling over themselves to imitate Apple's UX motifs (giving little critical attention to whether those motifs are any good or not), the auto industry seems doomed to churn out poor Tesla imitations.
Just like Apple, I'd imagine that Tesla themselves are going to get caught up in their own popularity, and start repeating the same pattern themselves, elegantly completing the design hype loop.
posted by schmod at 8:38 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Just like Apple, I'd imagine that Tesla themselves are going to get caught up in their own popularity, and start repeating the same pattern themselves, elegantly completing the design hype loop.
posted by schmod at 8:38 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Even worse, that is a single piece of glass.
Speaking of imitating Apple....
posted by schmod at 8:39 AM on April 1, 2016
Speaking of imitating Apple....
posted by schmod at 8:39 AM on April 1, 2016
You magnificent bastard. I just bought you MeFi Gold.
I swear to God, I will burn this place down.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:40 AM on April 1, 2016 [56 favorites]
I swear to God, I will burn this place down.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:40 AM on April 1, 2016 [56 favorites]
I have zero actual confirmed numbers to back this up, because it is anecdata from a friend with a plug-in car. He has powered his home for several years mostly with solar, and ended up with the occasional $10 monthly power bill during the summer when he had the AC cranked. He bought a Chevy Volt, which is some kind of plug-in/gas hybrid, and says his monthly electricity bill has shot up to $20 and he spends about $20 per month on gas. And he drives the hell out of that thing, he's in sales. I know these numbers because he brags about it on facebook a lot. I would too if my fuel costs were $ 30 - 40 per month, but my stupid, gas-guzzling Prius doesn't have as impressive stats.
Generally, especially with coal use on the decline, Plug-ins are still wayyyy better on well-to-wheel emissions than gas-powered cars, per miles driven, BTW.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Generally, especially with coal use on the decline, Plug-ins are still wayyyy better on well-to-wheel emissions than gas-powered cars, per miles driven, BTW.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
A new paper in Nature (PDF) yesterday suggests that sea-level rise may happen much faster than we thought. IOW, electric cars can't come fast enough.
posted by bonehead at 8:48 AM on April 1, 2016
posted by bonehead at 8:48 AM on April 1, 2016
I would too if my fuel costs were $ 30 - 40 per month
That's what I pay to fuel my Mazda 3. I think the trick to lowering your gas cost is to not drive as much.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:53 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's what I pay to fuel my Mazda 3. I think the trick to lowering your gas cost is to not drive as much.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:53 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
This car is beautiful.
The lack of a grille is tastefully done, and just forward thinking enough to set a precedent for future cars. I even love the minimalist interior; I watched a bunch of videos of people in the interior while it is driving, and the monolithic screen looks great.
My only beef (ish) is the hood/headlight treatment is pure Porsche. But then, the S is all Maserati lines, so at least Tesla knows how to ape good design.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 8:54 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
The lack of a grille is tastefully done, and just forward thinking enough to set a precedent for future cars. I even love the minimalist interior; I watched a bunch of videos of people in the interior while it is driving, and the monolithic screen looks great.
My only beef (ish) is the hood/headlight treatment is pure Porsche. But then, the S is all Maserati lines, so at least Tesla knows how to ape good design.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 8:54 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mr. Greenwood: I'm holding out for a car that will run off my own body fat.
I've always wanted a flex-fuel Cessna that runs on pee, for extended range.
posted by kurumi at 8:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've always wanted a flex-fuel Cessna that runs on pee, for extended range.
posted by kurumi at 8:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Can you imagine having to activate wind shield wipers with a damn center-mounted touchscreen?
I think Tesla is aiming for the world where drivers think more along the lines of "Remember when we had to activate wind shield wipers? LOL!"
posted by Static Vagabond at 8:57 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think Tesla is aiming for the world where drivers think more along the lines of "Remember when we had to activate wind shield wipers? LOL!"
posted by Static Vagabond at 8:57 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
I drive the Ford C-Max. I drive from Burbank to UCLA every day (about 17 miles uphill both ways 101>405). I am getting about 100 MPG and I buy about $30 in gas a month. I am super happy with my car right now and am only looking forward to better and better mileage, etc.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 9:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I also don't have to activate my windshield wipers. They just come on when it rains.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Sophie1 at 9:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
We have a 2000 square foot flat roof on our garage so I was thinking about figuring out how many solar panels it would take to be able to charge an electric car via the sun.
Our 3.5kW system - 14 panels, taking up around 60% of our 995 sq foot roof - generates enough power during the day when the sun is shining to switch the system to bypass our power meter and slow-charge the car directly. However, that's not a safe bet, since the system effectively shuts down during heavy rains, winter days can be pretty short, and the amount of sun you get on any day is likely more than or less than you actually use, so it's not the way you actually want to charge a car.
However, the system cumulatively generates enough surplus power during the day to push back into the grid to exchange (at no effective cost) for around 15,000 miles a year worth of charging our EV at night. Our electric bill is basically the grid interconnection and meter fee, maybe we either pay $5 or get a check for $5 at the end of the year depending on our usage patterns. The car turns itself on and charges while we sleep.
While it's fun to say that it doesn't cost me anything to drive my car, there is the sunk cost of the solar system. With calculations across the life of the system and the efficiency of my EV given my driving patterns, it costs me, fully loaded, around 3.33 cents per mile in energy costs. Our EV replaced a car rated at 30mpg; that's like switching to $1.00/gallon gas. That was astounding during the era of $4 gas, it's merely a good (and karmically positive) deal today.
I guess it's sort of trying to make the market give you what you want, but still that's a lot of trust
We bought our RAV4 EV - which is a slightly-modified Model S drivetrain smushed into a RAV4 body - in early 2013. It's 3 years old, with 45,000 miles on the dash. At the time, everyone thought we were nuts - the current EV generation had just begun and it was still weird to say you owned an EV - but Toyota was selling them with incentives that brought them under $30k. *That* was trust. Just three years later, there are over a hundred thousand Teslas on the road, and despite some glitches, pretty much everyone's still happy to own something built by Tesla. The Model S *is* a mass-produced car, albeit an expensive one - and it's clear from prior performance that Tesla can produce something of reasonable quality with the specs of the Model 3 on a large scale. The big question is: how fast will they be fulfilling those preorders? And how much will those options cost?
posted by eschatfische at 9:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [18 favorites]
Our 3.5kW system - 14 panels, taking up around 60% of our 995 sq foot roof - generates enough power during the day when the sun is shining to switch the system to bypass our power meter and slow-charge the car directly. However, that's not a safe bet, since the system effectively shuts down during heavy rains, winter days can be pretty short, and the amount of sun you get on any day is likely more than or less than you actually use, so it's not the way you actually want to charge a car.
However, the system cumulatively generates enough surplus power during the day to push back into the grid to exchange (at no effective cost) for around 15,000 miles a year worth of charging our EV at night. Our electric bill is basically the grid interconnection and meter fee, maybe we either pay $5 or get a check for $5 at the end of the year depending on our usage patterns. The car turns itself on and charges while we sleep.
While it's fun to say that it doesn't cost me anything to drive my car, there is the sunk cost of the solar system. With calculations across the life of the system and the efficiency of my EV given my driving patterns, it costs me, fully loaded, around 3.33 cents per mile in energy costs. Our EV replaced a car rated at 30mpg; that's like switching to $1.00/gallon gas. That was astounding during the era of $4 gas, it's merely a good (and karmically positive) deal today.
I guess it's sort of trying to make the market give you what you want, but still that's a lot of trust
We bought our RAV4 EV - which is a slightly-modified Model S drivetrain smushed into a RAV4 body - in early 2013. It's 3 years old, with 45,000 miles on the dash. At the time, everyone thought we were nuts - the current EV generation had just begun and it was still weird to say you owned an EV - but Toyota was selling them with incentives that brought them under $30k. *That* was trust. Just three years later, there are over a hundred thousand Teslas on the road, and despite some glitches, pretty much everyone's still happy to own something built by Tesla. The Model S *is* a mass-produced car, albeit an expensive one - and it's clear from prior performance that Tesla can produce something of reasonable quality with the specs of the Model 3 on a large scale. The big question is: how fast will they be fulfilling those preorders? And how much will those options cost?
posted by eschatfische at 9:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [18 favorites]
I think the trick to lowering your gas cost is to not drive as much.
But then my income would drop, because my business requires a lot of statewide travel. So fuel-efficiency ends up being very important, even when gas is cheap.
And I do try to use teleconferencing technologies, etc. to keep out of the car as much as possible.
This is definitely, literally a YMMV situation.
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
But then my income would drop, because my business requires a lot of statewide travel. So fuel-efficiency ends up being very important, even when gas is cheap.
And I do try to use teleconferencing technologies, etc. to keep out of the car as much as possible.
This is definitely, literally a YMMV situation.
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
My only beef (ish) is the hood/headlight treatment is pure Porsche
I read somewhere that that hood/fender/headlight design solves a specific aerodynamic problem (specifically, reducing drag caused by the sideview mirrors). I'm under the impression that's part of the reason the Nissan Leaf has those big bulbous headlights too.
posted by HighLife at 9:17 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I read somewhere that that hood/fender/headlight design solves a specific aerodynamic problem (specifically, reducing drag caused by the sideview mirrors). I'm under the impression that's part of the reason the Nissan Leaf has those big bulbous headlights too.
posted by HighLife at 9:17 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have a model S, and I can answer some of the questions in this thread, and maybe clear up some confusion, concerns, or misconceptions.
My model S is a P85D, which is rated for a 250 mile range. In practice, I get about 200 - 220 in the summer, and more like 125 - 150 in the winter. I live in northern Indiana, not far from Chicago, and it gets very cold in the winter. The batteries don't like the cold weather at all, and the car tends to reduce or disable regenerative braking when it's cold, so the range really suffers.
I bought my car at the very end of 2014. I picked it up from the Chicago sales center right around December 28th. Since then, I've put a little less than 11,000 miles on it. I work from home and fly quite a bit for work, so I don't put as many miles on a car as a lot of people. I have a charging station (which Tesla calls the High Power Wall Connector) in my garage with a dedicated 100 amp service. The car will pull 80 amps at max charging rate, which translates to about 55 - 60 mph of charge. I plug it in every night when I'm finished driving for the day.
My electric rates are $0.11/kWh, so the average cost to drive the car is about $30/month in electricity. My house has a ~7kW solar installation that generates between $75 - $150/month in power, so the power consumed by the car is 100% offset by my solar installation.
The touchscreen inside generally works very, very well. I am a UX designer and product manager by day, and I care a lot about this stuff. The lack of physical buttons is rarely an issue on the model S. There are control stalks on the steering wheel (many come from the Mercedes Benz part bin, as does the steering wheel itself) to control windshield wipers, lights, cruise, autopilot, and most other driving functions. All of the non-driving stuff is also available via the touch screen. The windows have standard open/close buttons on the doors, just where you would expect them. There's also an extensive menu system in the digital dash that allows you to control things like cabin temperature using two thumb wheels on the steering wheel. By default, they are mapped to sound system volume and interior temp.
Generally speaking, I can perform most functions in the car without taking my eyes off the road. When I do have to interact with the touch screen, the experience is good. My chief complaint with the UX is that the hardware is built on a Tegra 3 platform, which is pretty old, and they're trying to do a lot with it. There are times when it's quite slow and feels a bit unresponsive. This is especially true when it's very cold and the LCD panel starts to lag on top of the generally-slow CPU. I am hopeful that they'll offer a system upgrade at some point.
My car has the panorama roof, which is a single piece of glass like the one on the model 3. I was a bit worried about solar gain when I bought it, because Indiana summers are quite hot. It's quite heavily tinted, though, and it doesn't turn the car into an oven in the summer. It offers an enormous amount of headroom in the front seats, though the rear headroom is compromised by the sweeping design of the roof line.
The interior is not as fancy as most cars in this price range, but most Tesla buyers don't seem to care about that very much. There are some interesting stats on Model S buyers-- most have never owned a car that cost more than $40k before purchasing the Tesla (including me). If you look at auto sales trends over the past couple of years, the Model S is really eating into the luxury market in a way that has surprised people in the industry. Sales of BMW 7 Series and Mercedes S class are way down, mostly because they are losing buyers to Tesla.
The thing I like most about the car is that it gets better over time. A month after I purchased it, I got in one morning to discover that it had adaptive cruise control. Two months later, it got faster by a tenth of a second in its 0 - 60 run. This summer, it learned to drive itself in a very limited way. Last month, it gained the ability to park itself and back itself out of tight spaces. In some ways, it feels more like owning a computer than owning a car.
There are some downsides, mostly the sort you might expect from owning a fairly low-volume vehicle. It's mechanically a very simple car, but the electronics and computer systems are quite complex, and there are occasional bugs. I haven't had a lot of issues, but I do have to reboot it occasionally, and there have been a few times where I've had to call Tesla support and get them to do something to it remotely. I haven't really had any repair issues since I purchased the car, though I need to take it it for a minor recall thing at some point soon. I'm two hours away from the nearest service center, so I usually need to make use of their ranger service, which has them pick up and return the vehicle after service for a small fee.
I like that the car is relatively low-key. Out in the bay area, it's a status symbol, and you can't throw a rock without hitting one. In my small town in Indiana, not that many people even know what it is, and it doesn't get the kind of looks that are generally reserved for status cars.
posted by drklahn at 9:19 AM on April 1, 2016 [101 favorites]
My model S is a P85D, which is rated for a 250 mile range. In practice, I get about 200 - 220 in the summer, and more like 125 - 150 in the winter. I live in northern Indiana, not far from Chicago, and it gets very cold in the winter. The batteries don't like the cold weather at all, and the car tends to reduce or disable regenerative braking when it's cold, so the range really suffers.
I bought my car at the very end of 2014. I picked it up from the Chicago sales center right around December 28th. Since then, I've put a little less than 11,000 miles on it. I work from home and fly quite a bit for work, so I don't put as many miles on a car as a lot of people. I have a charging station (which Tesla calls the High Power Wall Connector) in my garage with a dedicated 100 amp service. The car will pull 80 amps at max charging rate, which translates to about 55 - 60 mph of charge. I plug it in every night when I'm finished driving for the day.
My electric rates are $0.11/kWh, so the average cost to drive the car is about $30/month in electricity. My house has a ~7kW solar installation that generates between $75 - $150/month in power, so the power consumed by the car is 100% offset by my solar installation.
The touchscreen inside generally works very, very well. I am a UX designer and product manager by day, and I care a lot about this stuff. The lack of physical buttons is rarely an issue on the model S. There are control stalks on the steering wheel (many come from the Mercedes Benz part bin, as does the steering wheel itself) to control windshield wipers, lights, cruise, autopilot, and most other driving functions. All of the non-driving stuff is also available via the touch screen. The windows have standard open/close buttons on the doors, just where you would expect them. There's also an extensive menu system in the digital dash that allows you to control things like cabin temperature using two thumb wheels on the steering wheel. By default, they are mapped to sound system volume and interior temp.
Generally speaking, I can perform most functions in the car without taking my eyes off the road. When I do have to interact with the touch screen, the experience is good. My chief complaint with the UX is that the hardware is built on a Tegra 3 platform, which is pretty old, and they're trying to do a lot with it. There are times when it's quite slow and feels a bit unresponsive. This is especially true when it's very cold and the LCD panel starts to lag on top of the generally-slow CPU. I am hopeful that they'll offer a system upgrade at some point.
My car has the panorama roof, which is a single piece of glass like the one on the model 3. I was a bit worried about solar gain when I bought it, because Indiana summers are quite hot. It's quite heavily tinted, though, and it doesn't turn the car into an oven in the summer. It offers an enormous amount of headroom in the front seats, though the rear headroom is compromised by the sweeping design of the roof line.
The interior is not as fancy as most cars in this price range, but most Tesla buyers don't seem to care about that very much. There are some interesting stats on Model S buyers-- most have never owned a car that cost more than $40k before purchasing the Tesla (including me). If you look at auto sales trends over the past couple of years, the Model S is really eating into the luxury market in a way that has surprised people in the industry. Sales of BMW 7 Series and Mercedes S class are way down, mostly because they are losing buyers to Tesla.
The thing I like most about the car is that it gets better over time. A month after I purchased it, I got in one morning to discover that it had adaptive cruise control. Two months later, it got faster by a tenth of a second in its 0 - 60 run. This summer, it learned to drive itself in a very limited way. Last month, it gained the ability to park itself and back itself out of tight spaces. In some ways, it feels more like owning a computer than owning a car.
There are some downsides, mostly the sort you might expect from owning a fairly low-volume vehicle. It's mechanically a very simple car, but the electronics and computer systems are quite complex, and there are occasional bugs. I haven't had a lot of issues, but I do have to reboot it occasionally, and there have been a few times where I've had to call Tesla support and get them to do something to it remotely. I haven't really had any repair issues since I purchased the car, though I need to take it it for a minor recall thing at some point soon. I'm two hours away from the nearest service center, so I usually need to make use of their ranger service, which has them pick up and return the vehicle after service for a small fee.
I like that the car is relatively low-key. Out in the bay area, it's a status symbol, and you can't throw a rock without hitting one. In my small town in Indiana, not that many people even know what it is, and it doesn't get the kind of looks that are generally reserved for status cars.
posted by drklahn at 9:19 AM on April 1, 2016 [101 favorites]
Really great post, drklahn. I will say, I think this is the heart of the philosophical issue to me:
it feels more like owning a computer than owning a car
For some people, that's awesome; for me, it's a huge red flag. I deal with computers all day in my job, and spend a lot of my time dealing with problems with them. That's not something that I want to carry over into my car...
posted by primethyme at 9:24 AM on April 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
it feels more like owning a computer than owning a car
For some people, that's awesome; for me, it's a huge red flag. I deal with computers all day in my job, and spend a lot of my time dealing with problems with them. That's not something that I want to carry over into my car...
posted by primethyme at 9:24 AM on April 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
I should add, I'm coming across as anti-Tesla in this thread. But I'm actually really glad Tesla exists, and is pushing this technology forward. I think it will result in better electric cars from lots of companies, and I think they're doing a lot of really awesome stuff. I just don't find the specific Tesla models to be very compelling for my own personal use. I'm hoping someone will come along and take the best of what Tesla is doing, without the parts I don't like.
posted by primethyme at 9:27 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by primethyme at 9:27 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I suspect the problem in cold climates is that the car can't heat the interior with waste engine heat and instead has to use battery power. I've occasionally wondered about the impact of that on mileage. Apparently it's not as bad as I'd have guessed.
posted by sjswitzer at 9:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sjswitzer at 9:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Out in the bay area, it's a status symbol, and you can't throw a rock without hitting one.
Hm, these two sentences sort of contradict one another. They are indeed everywhere but they're no more a status symbol than a mid-level BMW or Mercedes. If anything there are certain places where Tesla owners can't find their car in parking lots because the whole lot is full of identical Model Ss.
I mean, when there's a Whole Foods in Santa Clara and a Tesla dealership on El Camino Real, are these things really status symbols anymore?
posted by GuyZero at 9:31 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hm, these two sentences sort of contradict one another. They are indeed everywhere but they're no more a status symbol than a mid-level BMW or Mercedes. If anything there are certain places where Tesla owners can't find their car in parking lots because the whole lot is full of identical Model Ss.
I mean, when there's a Whole Foods in Santa Clara and a Tesla dealership on El Camino Real, are these things really status symbols anymore?
posted by GuyZero at 9:31 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
If all the aristocrats own one, it's a status symbol, even if all the aristocrats live in the same neighbourhood.
posted by clawsoon at 9:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 9:32 AM on April 1, 2016 [28 favorites]
it feels more like owning a computer than owning a carThis terrifies me.
One of the questions I ask myself when evaluating a product that's going to be a big part of my life is:
"What's my escape route when the vendor turns evil?"
'cause given sufficient time, the risk approaches 1. Doesn't matter what product; it's a constant of the technology universe. Given enough time, no matter how noble they were when they started, the risk of evil increases until it becomes a certainty.
For something like a laptop, no big deal: it's easy to replace. Ten minutes on eBay, sell the old one, move on.
For something like my OS it's a bit harder, hence why I'm reluctant to use a closed-source OS. Still doable though (and that's why I jumped to Linux years ago; my OS vendor turned evil.)
For something like my car? Well... changing might be prohibitively expensive. And if I can't escape, well... that scares me.
So what happens when -- a decade from now -- I'm driving my Tesla, and they push an update that makes the experience suck for me in some way? Like if, say, they charged $1000 to opt-out of some sort of new data collection program? I can't refuse the update. I can't undo it. I just have to deal with it.
Now I'm not saying that Tesla will deliberately cripple old models to help new ones, but... well... what happens when the benevolent dictator gets replaced with the dude that decided that the solution to crap Windows 10 sales was to push nagware/malware to customers running Windows <10 to try to force them to install 10? What happens when *that* sort of person is put in charge of Tesla's software?
posted by -1 at 9:33 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Rank and file silicon valley employees are only aristocrats if you're looking at the inbred hemophiliac end of the aristocrat spectrum.
posted by GuyZero at 9:34 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 9:34 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hm, these two sentences sort of contradict one another.
There's status that says 'I have what you don't' and there's status that says 'I'm with you'.
Tesla in the bay area is mostly about the latter.
posted by zippy at 9:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
There's status that says 'I have what you don't' and there's status that says 'I'm with you'.
Tesla in the bay area is mostly about the latter.
posted by zippy at 9:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
If all the aristocrats own one, it's a status symbol, even if all the aristocrats live in the same neighbourhood.
Never ask what the aristocrats do in the back seat of one.
posted by delfin at 9:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Never ask what the aristocrats do in the back seat of one.
posted by delfin at 9:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think the trick to lowering your gas cost is to not drive as much.
I guess by that logic, the real trick is to not drive at all. That effectively brings your fuel costs to $0.
Since Tesla is now reaching out to a different market, I'm interested to see how it affects the rest of the auto industry. This model's direct competition would be the Chevy Bolt I would imagine, so I think the difference in vision between a disruptive newcomer like Tesla and an established company like GM is going to be interesting. Is GM going to copy some of the ideas that Tesla brings to the table? Or will GM poo-poo some of the ideas as naive/unneeded?
posted by angryostrich at 9:38 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess by that logic, the real trick is to not drive at all. That effectively brings your fuel costs to $0.
Since Tesla is now reaching out to a different market, I'm interested to see how it affects the rest of the auto industry. This model's direct competition would be the Chevy Bolt I would imagine, so I think the difference in vision between a disruptive newcomer like Tesla and an established company like GM is going to be interesting. Is GM going to copy some of the ideas that Tesla brings to the table? Or will GM poo-poo some of the ideas as naive/unneeded?
posted by angryostrich at 9:38 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
and fracking, don't forget the fracking.
Also, the growing dependence of the US electrical supply on cheap natural gas is totally insane, see: Enron/California...
posted by ennui.bz at 9:42 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
and fracking, don't forget the fracking.
Also, the growing dependence of the US electrical supply on cheap natural gas is totally insane, see: Enron/California...
posted by ennui.bz at 9:42 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
one part of the electric car discussion I seem to keep missing is how, if everyone goes electric, we'll still have gridlock in our cities and burbs. Which feels like a massive mistake given how evolutionary this historical moment really could be.
the romance of the individually owned automobile really has to go*
* except in rural locations, of course.
posted by philip-random at 9:43 AM on April 1, 2016
the romance of the individually owned automobile really has to go*
* except in rural locations, of course.
posted by philip-random at 9:43 AM on April 1, 2016
Can I get the interior in soft Corinthian leather?
Rich! That's rich Corinthian leather!
posted by octobersurprise at 9:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
Rich! That's rich Corinthian leather!
posted by octobersurprise at 9:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
This is cool, and i even like how it looks. I get the complaint about the wheels, but that's the current metagame. Go look at the basic Lexus IS, infiniti G maybe(which it somewhat resembles), entry level BMW, Audi, etc. This isn't the fancy Civic, it's the basic lease-special 3 series. And it looks a bit nicer than that, honestly.
My question is, when are they making the 20k one? Where's the everymans basic commuter car? Does that not align with their ~brand image~?
I don't like the grille treatment. I understand not needing any airflow to go into anywhere, but it seems a bit dumb to leave a flat fronted area like that. It looks clumsy and can't be as aerodynamically efficient (nor as pretty) as a more sculpted front end.
I think it looks pretty cool in a modern Porsche 914, 70's 911 sort of way.
I wonder what the age split is for people thinking it looks cool Vs not? My informal offline poll seems to have it at mostly younger people thinking it's cool, and older people thinking it's weird/ugly. The crossover point is maybe... early 30s?
Personally i think a grille for it's own sake would be as silly as many products(and some car interiors) that have "speaker grilles" where there are no actual speakers for cosmetics.
Has anyone come up with a good solution to the problem of "I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
As someone who lives in the core of the city, the solution seems to be public/publicly accessible charging stations at grocery stores and such, but mostly charging at work.
A friend of mine works at microsoft and charges his fiat 500e exclusively at work. Instead of sitting idle and not charging in the work parking lot, it sits idle near his place.
Some companies also offer free charging to employees, which if you can get in on it is awesome.
The latter wouldn't be an option for me, but it seems to cover a lot of the is-buying-a-tesla-in-the-city market here. Probably because that market is almost entirely people who work at tech companies, though.
Tesla really really needs more supercharging stations right in the middle of town, where you can leave your car charging say over lunch or after work and go to nearby grocery stores/etc and run errands. Even if they aren't like their current outdoor gas station style ones, and are just a floor of a parking garage or part of some other business. I'd be surprised if they haven't at least thought about this one.
posted by emptythought at 9:59 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
My question is, when are they making the 20k one? Where's the everymans basic commuter car? Does that not align with their ~brand image~?
I don't like the grille treatment. I understand not needing any airflow to go into anywhere, but it seems a bit dumb to leave a flat fronted area like that. It looks clumsy and can't be as aerodynamically efficient (nor as pretty) as a more sculpted front end.
I think it looks pretty cool in a modern Porsche 914, 70's 911 sort of way.
I wonder what the age split is for people thinking it looks cool Vs not? My informal offline poll seems to have it at mostly younger people thinking it's cool, and older people thinking it's weird/ugly. The crossover point is maybe... early 30s?
Personally i think a grille for it's own sake would be as silly as many products(and some car interiors) that have "speaker grilles" where there are no actual speakers for cosmetics.
Has anyone come up with a good solution to the problem of "I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
As someone who lives in the core of the city, the solution seems to be public/publicly accessible charging stations at grocery stores and such, but mostly charging at work.
A friend of mine works at microsoft and charges his fiat 500e exclusively at work. Instead of sitting idle and not charging in the work parking lot, it sits idle near his place.
Some companies also offer free charging to employees, which if you can get in on it is awesome.
The latter wouldn't be an option for me, but it seems to cover a lot of the is-buying-a-tesla-in-the-city market here. Probably because that market is almost entirely people who work at tech companies, though.
Tesla really really needs more supercharging stations right in the middle of town, where you can leave your car charging say over lunch or after work and go to nearby grocery stores/etc and run errands. Even if they aren't like their current outdoor gas station style ones, and are just a floor of a parking garage or part of some other business. I'd be surprised if they haven't at least thought about this one.
posted by emptythought at 9:59 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
More than 200 people lined up in the near-freezing rain at a Montreal Tesla Dealership, to put down $1,000 deposits. Some camped overnight. The future looks bright. Lots of people want change.
posted by ecco at 10:00 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ecco at 10:00 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I guess by that logic, the real trick is to not drive at all.
Well, yes, those of us that can come close to it are helping save money and the environment. I have a car for the times that I can't avoid driving and when I did the math, it is environmentally better to not have an electric or hybrid car, because the damage from creating the batteries is worse than just burning a little gas, when the batteries end up just sitting in my driveway 95+% of the time.
Not all solutions fit everyone's problems and I'm glad that Tesla is pushing the game forward for people that don't or can't live in walkable neighborhoods.
posted by Candleman at 10:04 AM on April 1, 2016
Well, yes, those of us that can come close to it are helping save money and the environment. I have a car for the times that I can't avoid driving and when I did the math, it is environmentally better to not have an electric or hybrid car, because the damage from creating the batteries is worse than just burning a little gas, when the batteries end up just sitting in my driveway 95+% of the time.
Not all solutions fit everyone's problems and I'm glad that Tesla is pushing the game forward for people that don't or can't live in walkable neighborhoods.
posted by Candleman at 10:04 AM on April 1, 2016
Also, I really wish this trend for larger wheels would go away. Smaller cars with big wheels ride like crap. Ride comfort takes a serious hit for a bit of a 'preferred look'.
posted by Brockles
My first thought on reading this comment was that batteries are heavy, so maybe the larger sized wheels are to give a larger area contacting the road and therefore better stopping power against the added momentum.
Then I saw who posted the comment, and my second thought was that I must be wrong, because this is someone who has forgotten more about cars than I'll ever know - but I should respond anyway so that I can learn why I'm wrong.
posted by solotoro at 10:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Brockles
My first thought on reading this comment was that batteries are heavy, so maybe the larger sized wheels are to give a larger area contacting the road and therefore better stopping power against the added momentum.
Then I saw who posted the comment, and my second thought was that I must be wrong, because this is someone who has forgotten more about cars than I'll ever know - but I should respond anyway so that I can learn why I'm wrong.
posted by solotoro at 10:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think it looks cool and futuristic, and I'm in my mid-40s. Grills on electric cars are stupid. Heck, the cartoon-like oversized grills and fake vents found on a lot of cars right now are dumb looking. I like it when form follows function, rather than baroque embellishments of fake vents and grills.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
it feels more like owning a computer than owning a car
This terrifies me.
I've been a car owner since my first piece of shit Dodge Omni in 1986. When my car breaks down 200 miles from nowhere, i will be very happy if a reboot can get it running again, rather than it being towed away so some guy can charge me $1000.00 to replace my timing belt.
posted by bondcliff at 10:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
This terrifies me.
I've been a car owner since my first piece of shit Dodge Omni in 1986. When my car breaks down 200 miles from nowhere, i will be very happy if a reboot can get it running again, rather than it being towed away so some guy can charge me $1000.00 to replace my timing belt.
posted by bondcliff at 10:05 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
A new paper in Nature (PDF) yesterday suggests that sea-level rise may happen much faster than we thought. IOW, electric cars can't come fast enough.
The entire concept of American suburbia will continue to be extravagantly wasteful, though. Replacing gas-powered cars with electric cars only addresses a single facet of a much larger problem.
We need to build cities, and stop building suburbs. The future envisioned by Elon Musk from his home in Silicon Valley isn't sustainable, and we're quickly approaching the point where we won't be able to continue or extend it (ironically, California has arguably already reached that point).
We don't need to invent more efficient ways of moving stuff around -- we need to move less stuff around, and need to be more efficient with the ways that we utilize our transportation infrastructure.
We need to burn way less coal.
We need to eat less meat.
The days of commuting by private automobile are numbered. The power source of those vehicles is a moot point. Suburbia does not scale, and even then, there are much bigger environmental problems that we need to worry about.
posted by schmod at 10:09 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
The entire concept of American suburbia will continue to be extravagantly wasteful, though. Replacing gas-powered cars with electric cars only addresses a single facet of a much larger problem.
We need to build cities, and stop building suburbs. The future envisioned by Elon Musk from his home in Silicon Valley isn't sustainable, and we're quickly approaching the point where we won't be able to continue or extend it (ironically, California has arguably already reached that point).
We don't need to invent more efficient ways of moving stuff around -- we need to move less stuff around, and need to be more efficient with the ways that we utilize our transportation infrastructure.
We need to burn way less coal.
We need to eat less meat.
The days of commuting by private automobile are numbered. The power source of those vehicles is a moot point. Suburbia does not scale, and even then, there are much bigger environmental problems that we need to worry about.
posted by schmod at 10:09 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
TheWifeWazoo and I stood in a line for about an hour yesterday morning to place a pre-order at the Stanford Mall store (after buying new iPhones SE on release day, natch). For us, the opportunity cost is nearly zero (the deposit is refundable at any time), but - if the car is sufficiently compelling that we decide to buy one - there is a very real (as much as $7500) cost to being late to the game. Interest rates on anything we could do with $1k are basically nil. And we've got the money to stash. That's the important part.
It is also an ICE-powered vehicle. After exposure to electric vehicles, my feeling about ICE is... it's kind of hard to explain, but it feels like a steam-engine, or a horse and buggy, or a penny farthing, or any other archaic mode of transportation. The fact that I have to care about things like coolant temperature and spark plugs and oil changes feels as up-to-date as having to trim the spark advance while I drive, or shovel coal into the oven, or... Its time has clearly passed as a mass-mode technology.
Jay Leno talked once about the death of ICE vehicles, and how we welcomed it! Today, horses aren't how you get to work. Horses haven't disappeared, they've just turned from a necessity into a luxury, and the world is better for it. Even as a petrolhead, I feel the same way about my ICE cars (and motorcycles).
posted by TheNewWazoo at 10:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's like an uglier, less functional Mazda3.Interestingly, we have a Mazda 3. As Car and Driver put it, the Mazda 3 is proof of an unjust universe because everyone who wants a car in that segment should be buying one. It's a fantastic car.
posted by indubitable
It is also an ICE-powered vehicle. After exposure to electric vehicles, my feeling about ICE is... it's kind of hard to explain, but it feels like a steam-engine, or a horse and buggy, or a penny farthing, or any other archaic mode of transportation. The fact that I have to care about things like coolant temperature and spark plugs and oil changes feels as up-to-date as having to trim the spark advance while I drive, or shovel coal into the oven, or... Its time has clearly passed as a mass-mode technology.
Jay Leno talked once about the death of ICE vehicles, and how we welcomed it! Today, horses aren't how you get to work. Horses haven't disappeared, they've just turned from a necessity into a luxury, and the world is better for it. Even as a petrolhead, I feel the same way about my ICE cars (and motorcycles).
posted by TheNewWazoo at 10:10 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
I should add, I'm coming across as anti-Tesla in this thread.
Eh, it's OK, it's to be expected. Then again, I'm pretty much reading this thread in the voice of Martin the Paranoid Android.
"Tesla. Don't talk to me about Tesla."
posted by happyroach at 10:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Eh, it's OK, it's to be expected. Then again, I'm pretty much reading this thread in the voice of Martin the Paranoid Android.
"Tesla. Don't talk to me about Tesla."
posted by happyroach at 10:15 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Personally i think a grille for it's own sake would be as silly as many products(and some car interiors) that have "speaker grilles" where there are no actual speakers for cosmetics.
For clarity, I don't think it needs a grille, but I don't see the point of keeping the (now-non-functional) drag-inducing vertical surface if you don't need that area for cooling intake. Why not point the nose off, or slant it (at the top or the bottom) or smooth it out in some way that is more aerodynamically efficient? That's my point. They kept the disadvantage and didn't maximise the styling advantage.
My first thought on reading this comment was that batteries are heavy, so maybe the larger sized wheels are to give a larger area contacting the road and therefore better stopping power against the added momentum.
I'm talking about the size f the wheel, not the overall size of the wheel/tyre combination. The load bearing ability is purely about sidewall strength, and the contact patch is all about handling/stopping etc. But for a given outer diameter of tyre, a smaller wheel allows a larger tyre sidewall which has significantly better shock-reducing capability than a low profile tyre. That jarring over bumps on (especially the terrible quality of US) roads is largely because all the work in coping with the surface irregularities is passed onto the suspension because the tyre isn't capable of dealing with it.
posted by Brockles at 10:17 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
For clarity, I don't think it needs a grille, but I don't see the point of keeping the (now-non-functional) drag-inducing vertical surface if you don't need that area for cooling intake. Why not point the nose off, or slant it (at the top or the bottom) or smooth it out in some way that is more aerodynamically efficient? That's my point. They kept the disadvantage and didn't maximise the styling advantage.
My first thought on reading this comment was that batteries are heavy, so maybe the larger sized wheels are to give a larger area contacting the road and therefore better stopping power against the added momentum.
I'm talking about the size f the wheel, not the overall size of the wheel/tyre combination. The load bearing ability is purely about sidewall strength, and the contact patch is all about handling/stopping etc. But for a given outer diameter of tyre, a smaller wheel allows a larger tyre sidewall which has significantly better shock-reducing capability than a low profile tyre. That jarring over bumps on (especially the terrible quality of US) roads is largely because all the work in coping with the surface irregularities is passed onto the suspension because the tyre isn't capable of dealing with it.
posted by Brockles at 10:17 AM on April 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
Tesla is doing some interesting things for sure but I'd think very seriously before doing anything other than leasing one. As documented here they basically consider the entire vehicle proprietary. You're probably never going to be able to fix it yourself, have a third party fix it, or get Tesla to fix it once they consider it no longer worthwhile.
The bottom line is that even if you pay for it you don't really own it.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 10:19 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The bottom line is that even if you pay for it you don't really own it.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 10:19 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to say that there's both a Telsa Street and an Electric Avenue near me.
posted by octothorpe at 10:21 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:21 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Musk has tweeted that the preorders are currently up to 198,000 and with the options that are being selected the average price is around $42K.
$8B in projected revenue over 24hours isn't bad.
posted by HighLife at 10:28 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
$8B in projected revenue over 24hours isn't bad.
posted by HighLife at 10:28 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
HAY you guys stating that electric cars still have to run on fossil-fuels from the power-plant source of the electricity DO understand that:
1. Electric vehicles' "well-to-wheel" emissions tend to be lower than gasoline-powered vehicles anyway.
2. Renewable energy can be used as the power-plant source. An option not at all available with gasoline-powered cars. Plenty of people powering their EV's with PV, and more to come as the costs of each go down.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
1. Electric vehicles' "well-to-wheel" emissions tend to be lower than gasoline-powered vehicles anyway.
2. Renewable energy can be used as the power-plant source. An option not at all available with gasoline-powered cars. Plenty of people powering their EV's with PV, and more to come as the costs of each go down.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:29 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
This is the case with gas cars too- oil refineries use a tremendous amount of electricity to refine gasoline
posted by Maxwell's demon at 10:30 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is the case with gas cars too- oil refineries use a tremendous amount of electricity to refine gasoline
posted by Maxwell's demon at 10:30 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered
This may be true where you live, but it's not true universally. Canada is going to be nearly coal-free as a country when Alberta gets their act together in a few years.
posted by bonehead at 10:41 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
This may be true where you live, but it's not true universally. Canada is going to be nearly coal-free as a country when Alberta gets their act together in a few years.
posted by bonehead at 10:41 AM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
It's a problem, sure, but probably also worth noting that there are a lot of countries with people interested in an electric car that aren't as reliant on coal as the USA.
posted by Hoopo at 10:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's a problem, sure, but probably also worth noting that there are a lot of countries with people interested in an electric car that aren't as reliant on coal as the USA.
posted by Hoopo at 10:44 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
"The lesson is, never try."
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:51 AM on April 1, 2016 [22 favorites]
"The lesson is, never try."
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:51 AM on April 1, 2016 [22 favorites]
My husband's a state employee and as part of one of their greening initiatives, they installed charging stations in some (most?) of the state employee parking garages a few years back. We don't have much electric-vehicle infrastructure yet as a state (Illinois), so it's a small way of pushing it forward. It was included along with electric vehicle tax credits, and incentives for gas stations to put in charging stations.
Anyway, most parking garages near his office, right next to the elevators are the handicapped spots and then right next to the handicapped spots are the EV charging spots. The state as of now pays for the electricity. They're not usually full and people always stop to gawk at the EVs and peek in the windows when they're plugged in. People are very intrigued to see them in the wild, since they're not super-common around here yet. It's not (currently) a big cost to the state and employees love the perk.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:51 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyway, most parking garages near his office, right next to the elevators are the handicapped spots and then right next to the handicapped spots are the EV charging spots. The state as of now pays for the electricity. They're not usually full and people always stop to gawk at the EVs and peek in the windows when they're plugged in. People are very intrigued to see them in the wild, since they're not super-common around here yet. It's not (currently) a big cost to the state and employees love the perk.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:51 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered
Come on. This is truthy, but not true. Coal plants are closing at the rate of one per month. Coal is DONE. So, are you saying we shouldn't be ramping up electric vehicle production in the mean time?
posted by mondo dentro at 10:52 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Come on. This is truthy, but not true. Coal plants are closing at the rate of one per month. Coal is DONE. So, are you saying we shouldn't be ramping up electric vehicle production in the mean time?
posted by mondo dentro at 10:52 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I got to ride in the sportier model Tesla a year or 2 back. My sister's friend apparently works at the dealership and he's allowed to take them out some nights, so when she was in town he surprised us by picking us up in the fancy space car.
Now, I should say I've never been in the market for a car at all, so things like the interior materials aren't that important to me. I can certainly understand if it's something you're going to be riding in every day and dropping $35,000 on, it's a legitimate consideration.
All I'm going to say is that thing has some insane pickup on it. From stopped at a red to about to blowing past everyone on the road in an instant, and struggling to hold my dinner down. It's a weird sensation because you don't even feel or hear the car struggle with it; it's like flicking a light switch.
posted by Hoopo at 10:55 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Now, I should say I've never been in the market for a car at all, so things like the interior materials aren't that important to me. I can certainly understand if it's something you're going to be riding in every day and dropping $35,000 on, it's a legitimate consideration.
All I'm going to say is that thing has some insane pickup on it. From stopped at a red to about to blowing past everyone on the road in an instant, and struggling to hold my dinner down. It's a weird sensation because you don't even feel or hear the car struggle with it; it's like flicking a light switch.
posted by Hoopo at 10:55 AM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I was curious as to how Tesla was doing with their Supercharger stations, so I went here and, to my eye, it looks like a great deal of coverage between Supercharger stations and Destination Charging Stations if you're looking to stay on the main thoroughfares.
Those side country roads? You're kinda screwed.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:55 AM on April 1, 2016
Those side country roads? You're kinda screwed.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:55 AM on April 1, 2016
Re: the giant iPad screen - my UX philosophy is "can a drunk 10-year-old use this device without dying?" and Tesla fails at that utterly. To be fair, all cars fail at that. But still
posted by naju at 10:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by naju at 10:56 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Drunk 10 year olds should never drive without adult supervision.
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:00 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:00 AM on April 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'd worry less about a sugar-adled 10 year old, who has likely held touch-screens since they were able to make a fist than the confused and weary 45-65 year-old demo who grew up with touch tone and even dial phones that were screwed to the wall.
I do think this is generational. In my experience, the kids raised with iPads and Android phones think laptops without touch screens are ancient and weird. Us olds like physical knobs and buttons, but that's really not true of everyone.
posted by bonehead at 11:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I do think this is generational. In my experience, the kids raised with iPads and Android phones think laptops without touch screens are ancient and weird. Us olds like physical knobs and buttons, but that's really not true of everyone.
posted by bonehead at 11:03 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm looking at it, and, umm.
Look at the glass. I thought there was a seam there, but that's underneath the glass. It really looks like one long curved piece of glass which is NUTS.
Replacing a cracked windshield on this thing is going to cost you a fortune. And the rear trunk entry is just insanely bad, because they wanted this long sheet of glass, rather than making it a hatchback with actual cargo access. It would be unusable except it also has the front trunk, but I haven't seen space/entry on that yet.
Oh, and if you live in the Midwest? Better avoid thunderstorms, because this thing is going to die fast in a hailstorm.
posted by eriko at 11:08 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Look at the glass. I thought there was a seam there, but that's underneath the glass. It really looks like one long curved piece of glass which is NUTS.
Replacing a cracked windshield on this thing is going to cost you a fortune. And the rear trunk entry is just insanely bad, because they wanted this long sheet of glass, rather than making it a hatchback with actual cargo access. It would be unusable except it also has the front trunk, but I haven't seen space/entry on that yet.
Oh, and if you live in the Midwest? Better avoid thunderstorms, because this thing is going to die fast in a hailstorm.
posted by eriko at 11:08 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Kind of crazy to think in a single generation:
ICE -> EV
tactile UI -> touch UI or no UI (sensors turn on wipers, etc.)
human driver -> self driving car
own/lease -> rent with upgrades
posted by gwint at 11:12 AM on April 1, 2016
ICE -> EV
tactile UI -> touch UI or no UI (sensors turn on wipers, etc.)
human driver -> self driving car
own/lease -> rent with upgrades
posted by gwint at 11:12 AM on April 1, 2016
Replacing a cracked windshield on this thing is going to cost you a fortune.
I'm also thinking about the ever-increasing class unrest in the Bay Area. Is breaking these windshields going to be a Thing?
posted by naju at 11:12 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm also thinking about the ever-increasing class unrest in the Bay Area. Is breaking these windshields going to be a Thing?
posted by naju at 11:12 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are There Consequences for Using a Touchscreen in the Dragon V2?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:15 AM on April 1, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:15 AM on April 1, 2016
It's almost like their designers heard me bitching about the plastic grille on the Model S and said "FINE! FINE! We deleted the grille! Are you happy now?! Are you!?"
I still like it, though.
posted by gamera at 11:18 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I still like it, though.
posted by gamera at 11:18 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
The thing about the not-grille is that it screams "this is the blank space where a grille used to be." Mid- and rear-engined sports cars have been dealing with that area much more tastefully for decades. I'm thinking Porsche, or even the Renault Alpine. And if you want to go really retro, the 70s and 80s Lotuses.
posted by vanar sena at 11:18 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by vanar sena at 11:18 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Has anyone come up with a good solution to the problem of "I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
It's simple, you just get a little 2000W gasoline generator and fire it up and plug the Tesla in ... oh, wait. Never mind.
posted by theorique at 11:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's simple, you just get a little 2000W gasoline generator and fire it up and plug the Tesla in ... oh, wait. Never mind.
posted by theorique at 11:23 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm glad people are preordering current Teslas because I think they will make excellent autonomous cars once we finally get there. Until then, I'll continue to walk, ride share, take public transit and contemplate buying a small-displacement sports car for weekend fun.
Yeah, I drive old cars into the ground (very slowly, I take public transit most of the time) and I'm not crazy about being forced into a similar forced-obsolescence cycle with my car as I'm hooked into with the rest of my technology.
Touchscreens et al. seem great when I'm subscribing to a self-driving car service (like I think we all will be in ten years) but as long as I'm driving and owning the physical object, I'd like the interior tech to be simple and cheap to repair.
posted by Kwine at 11:35 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I drive old cars into the ground (very slowly, I take public transit most of the time) and I'm not crazy about being forced into a similar forced-obsolescence cycle with my car as I'm hooked into with the rest of my technology.
Touchscreens et al. seem great when I'm subscribing to a self-driving car service (like I think we all will be in ten years) but as long as I'm driving and owning the physical object, I'd like the interior tech to be simple and cheap to repair.
posted by Kwine at 11:35 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Has anyone come up with a good solution to the problem of "I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?
Do they lose their charge fast while not in use? I think the solution is to just get yourself to the nearest charge station, hopefully your city has those.
posted by Hoopo at 11:36 AM on April 1, 2016
Do they lose their charge fast while not in use? I think the solution is to just get yourself to the nearest charge station, hopefully your city has those.
posted by Hoopo at 11:36 AM on April 1, 2016
There's a charging station at a Walgreen's near me. I guess I could use that and just... browse the magazine section for 75 minutes...
posted by naju at 11:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 11:36 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just checked and there are no charging stations within about 30 minutes of me, and only one between me and Austin or me and Houston. Also, I live where its 120degrees on highways in the summer, full on death valley like Sun, with hailstorm that pop-up out of nowhere. Just last week we had baseball size hail. My 16 year old truck was fine, my neighbors tesla was destroyed. Even the corvette survived better, and that thing crumples if you look at it wrong. I can't imagine being in it, and finding yourself in a Texas spring storm and not being worried about getting beaned by ice comets from above. And while it may not be a solar oven in Chicago, I can't imagine that anything with that much sun exposure will be livable in Texas.
That said, I hope there is adoption, and it continues to be a thing. The end of combustion engines can't come soon enough for the planet.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:43 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
That said, I hope there is adoption, and it continues to be a thing. The end of combustion engines can't come soon enough for the planet.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:43 AM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
For clarity, I don't think it needs a grille, but I don't see the point of keeping the (now-non-functional) drag-inducing vertical surface if you don't need that area for cooling intake. Why not point the nose off, or slant it (at the top or the bottom) or smooth it out in some way that is more aerodynamically efficient? That's my point. They kept the disadvantage and didn't maximise the styling advantage. posted by Brockles
I think the vehicle has to conform to pedestrian collision mitigation standards, like all vehicles. A sloped nose would just break legs and collapse the pedesdtrian and lead to them being run over. I think the front end is supposed to pick up the pedestrain and sweep them onto the hood/windshield spreading the impact over as large an area as possible.
posted by Keith Talent at 11:46 AM on April 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
I think the vehicle has to conform to pedestrian collision mitigation standards, like all vehicles. A sloped nose would just break legs and collapse the pedesdtrian and lead to them being run over. I think the front end is supposed to pick up the pedestrain and sweep them onto the hood/windshield spreading the impact over as large an area as possible.
posted by Keith Talent at 11:46 AM on April 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
it feels more like owning a computer than owning a car
I spent some time recently with someone that works in customer service at Tesla. What she described sounded very much like my time in tech support for an ISP many years ago. Most conflicts seemed to revolve around customers expecting the experience of a car and not that of a piece of technology that is still being refined. It's an android phone, with all the good and bad that brings, but shaped like a car.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:47 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I spent some time recently with someone that works in customer service at Tesla. What she described sounded very much like my time in tech support for an ISP many years ago. Most conflicts seemed to revolve around customers expecting the experience of a car and not that of a piece of technology that is still being refined. It's an android phone, with all the good and bad that brings, but shaped like a car.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:47 AM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
It looks like a piece of shit as do all their cars - but it's incredibly, effortlessly fast. That is still a thing, right?
posted by colie at 11:49 AM on April 1, 2016
posted by colie at 11:49 AM on April 1, 2016
Keith Talent: I think the front end is supposed to pick up the pedestrain and sweep them onto the hood/windshield spreading the impact over as large an area as possible.
Combined with the long stretch of glass, you'll get a Homer-Simpson-sliding-up-the-Crystal-Cathedral effect.
posted by clawsoon at 11:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Combined with the long stretch of glass, you'll get a Homer-Simpson-sliding-up-the-Crystal-Cathedral effect.
posted by clawsoon at 11:50 AM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why not point the nose off, or slant it (at the top or the bottom) or smooth it out in some way that is more aerodynamically efficient?
In most states (including Tesla's home state of California) it's going to carry the front license plate.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:55 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
In most states (including Tesla's home state of California) it's going to carry the front license plate.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:55 AM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
I do have to reboot it occasionally, and there have been a few times where I've had to call Tesla support and get them to do something to it remotely
Sounds a lot like my cable modem.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:57 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
Sounds a lot like my cable modem.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:57 AM on April 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
A sloped nose would just break legs and collapse the pedesdtrian and lead to them being run over.
That is obviously not true. See Porsche, Ferrari, corvette, etc. There is a HUGE Styling gap between what you describe and the current styling.
Also, all those cars manage to mount front plates just fine.
posted by Brockles at 12:20 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
That is obviously not true. See Porsche, Ferrari, corvette, etc. There is a HUGE Styling gap between what you describe and the current styling.
Also, all those cars manage to mount front plates just fine.
posted by Brockles at 12:20 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyone know what the electric vehicle tax credit situation will be when this comes out?
posted by asra at 12:26 PM on April 1, 2016
posted by asra at 12:26 PM on April 1, 2016
Metafilter: One of the sunk costs of the solar system
posted by benbenson at 12:34 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by benbenson at 12:34 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Still waiting for somebody, anybody, to come out with a hybrid pickup truck or work van of any kind. Why does this still not exist? If I'm buying a vehicle for work, fuel is part of my overhead. I'd think fleet operators and contractors would be clamoring for this. Not to mention that if you are someone who needs a vehicle with a lot of low-end torque, electric is even better than diesel.
I am literally waiting until such a thing comes onto the market before I consider upgrading from my trusty station wagon to a truck or a van. It's got to happen eventually, right?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:56 PM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am literally waiting until such a thing comes onto the market before I consider upgrading from my trusty station wagon to a truck or a van. It's got to happen eventually, right?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:56 PM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sounds a lot like my cable modem.
I'm imagining a Comcast car right now and...yep about to vomit blood
posted by middleclasstool at 12:58 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm imagining a Comcast car right now and...yep about to vomit blood
posted by middleclasstool at 12:58 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dashy: "Tesla on Oatmeal"
I bet you anything Inman was paid to write this. In 2011 he admitted that he'd take product commissions from "truly exceptional client[s]" -- I assume Tesla falls into this category.
Or maybe they gave him the car as compensation.
posted by crazy with stars at 1:07 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I bet you anything Inman was paid to write this. In 2011 he admitted that he'd take product commissions from "truly exceptional client[s]" -- I assume Tesla falls into this category.
Or maybe they gave him the car as compensation.
posted by crazy with stars at 1:07 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
But for a given outer diameter of tyre, a smaller wheel allows a larger tyre sidewall which has significantly better shock-reducing capability than a low profile tyre. That jarring over bumps on (especially the terrible quality of US) roads is largely because all the work in coping with the surface irregularities is passed onto the suspension because the tyre isn't capable of dealing with it.
Oh, hells yes. It's purely fashion over form. I can't stand it, especially on luxury "SUVs" - why in gods name are you running ultra-low profile tires on something that will never see the track? I know you're not going to take it on logging trails, but pot-holes exist, yaknow?
Plus, low-profile tires are ugly. I mean, look at the sexy shoes on this number - compare with the rubber band wrapped around the tin-can of its modern imposter. It may work better on the track, but it don't look better. It looks same-same and dull, and probably rides like a buckboard wagon.
I want to see whitewalls make a comeback - nice, long-lived, quiet-rolling, comfortably pneumatic and classy as all get out thick whitewalls. I don't need to run the 'Ring to shave off hundredths in my grocery getter. I want look good and drive reasonably and be comfy.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:19 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, hells yes. It's purely fashion over form. I can't stand it, especially on luxury "SUVs" - why in gods name are you running ultra-low profile tires on something that will never see the track? I know you're not going to take it on logging trails, but pot-holes exist, yaknow?
Plus, low-profile tires are ugly. I mean, look at the sexy shoes on this number - compare with the rubber band wrapped around the tin-can of its modern imposter. It may work better on the track, but it don't look better. It looks same-same and dull, and probably rides like a buckboard wagon.
I want to see whitewalls make a comeback - nice, long-lived, quiet-rolling, comfortably pneumatic and classy as all get out thick whitewalls. I don't need to run the 'Ring to shave off hundredths in my grocery getter. I want look good and drive reasonably and be comfy.
posted by Slap*Happy at 1:19 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered
If you live in the right spot you'll be driving a nuclear powered car! Welcome to the atomic age, the retrofuture has arrived!
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:20 PM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
If you live in the right spot you'll be driving a nuclear powered car! Welcome to the atomic age, the retrofuture has arrived!
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:20 PM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Has anyone come up with a good solution to the problem of "I live in the city and park on the street, not even necessarily anywhere close to my building so how do I charge this thing?"
Not really. We have a Nissan Leaf as our primary car, and have temporarily moved into an apartment. Even in a town with a lot of public chargers, it is a big headache unless you have a private garage with a charger.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 1:28 PM on April 1, 2016
Not really. We have a Nissan Leaf as our primary car, and have temporarily moved into an apartment. Even in a town with a lot of public chargers, it is a big headache unless you have a private garage with a charger.
posted by Maxwell's demon at 1:28 PM on April 1, 2016
you're not going to take it on logging trails, but pot-holes exist, yaknow?
See also: speed bumps, curbs, random debris on the road...low profile tires are likely going to cost you more than the alternative
posted by Hoopo at 1:30 PM on April 1, 2016
See also: speed bumps, curbs, random debris on the road...low profile tires are likely going to cost you more than the alternative
posted by Hoopo at 1:30 PM on April 1, 2016
> I bet you anything Inman was paid to write this. In 2011 he admitted that he'd take product commissions from "truly exceptional client[s]" -- I assume Tesla falls into this category.
Or maybe they gave him the car as compensation.
I don't know if he got paid for his Model S review, but he is getting a Model 3 early.
posted by Mr. Pokeylope at 1:33 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or maybe they gave him the car as compensation.
I don't know if he got paid for his Model S review, but he is getting a Model 3 early.
posted by Mr. Pokeylope at 1:33 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Grills on electric cars are stupid.
Front grilles were reduced to non-functional styling features decades ago. I had a (POS) 1976 Honda Stivik and the radiator was oriented fore-and-aft between the "engine" and the starboard fender. It had a grille, but it obviously didn't need one.
Good On Tesla For Making The Model X Grille-Less
Here are some perfectly lovely automobiles with minimal or no front grille at all, from the 1940s to today. None of these cars needed a front grille either aesthetically or aesphunctionally. Your perceptions will, of course, vary.
*This model beat Tesla in having front AND rear trunks by over 50 years.
posted by Herodios at 1:37 PM on April 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
Front grilles were reduced to non-functional styling features decades ago. I had a (POS) 1976 Honda Stivik and the radiator was oriented fore-and-aft between the "engine" and the starboard fender. It had a grille, but it obviously didn't need one.
Good On Tesla For Making The Model X Grille-Less
We got our first look at Tesla’s new Model X last night, and in a pretty dramatic change from their 2013 Detroit Motor Show design prototype, the Model X has no silly fake grille-like thing on its face. Just a nice, clean front end, a bold move in a world where a prominent grille has become a design crutch.Why doesn't the Tesla Model X have a front grill?
For the same reason it does not have a tailpipe for spewing exhaust. It doesn't need it. Also, a grill adds to air drag. Notice that the Model S also does not have a front grill, but instead has a smooth, rounded front that is very aerodynamic.Cars without Grilles
Here are some perfectly lovely automobiles with minimal or no front grille at all, from the 1940s to today. None of these cars needed a front grille either aesthetically or aesphunctionally. Your perceptions will, of course, vary.
- Volkswagen Passat
- Ford Taurus
- Mercury Sable
- Chevrolet Corvette
- Pontiac Trans Am
- BMW 700
- Infinity Q45
- Volkswagen Beetle
- Volkswagen Bus
- Volkswagen Type III* aka "Squareback" (and IV)
- The lovely and talented Karman Ghia
- Citroen Bx19
- Citroen DS
- Renault Caravelle
- Renault Dauphine
- Simca 1000
*This model beat Tesla in having front AND rear trunks by over 50 years.
posted by Herodios at 1:37 PM on April 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
I hate the in dash systems in most new cars. I have really simple old school tactile interfaces in mine. I would not buy a car with that crappy Microsoft system like the Ford’s had.
That said, I know someone with a Tesla and the system works pretty great. I’d have that one.
Yes, there are things that can go wrong with a computer as a car, but overall they are so much simpler that modern gas powered cars it’s not even a comparison.
And so fast. Too fast. Scary fast.
posted by bongo_x at 2:01 PM on April 1, 2016
That said, I know someone with a Tesla and the system works pretty great. I’d have that one.
Yes, there are things that can go wrong with a computer as a car, but overall they are so much simpler that modern gas powered cars it’s not even a comparison.
And so fast. Too fast. Scary fast.
posted by bongo_x at 2:01 PM on April 1, 2016
rippersid: ""Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
Just saying..."
This really depends on where you are. I'd be surprised if coal generation makes up even 1% of the Hydro market here.
posted by Mitheral at 2:07 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just saying..."
This really depends on where you are. I'd be surprised if coal generation makes up even 1% of the Hydro market here.
posted by Mitheral at 2:07 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hm, I can't speak for the other ones, Herodios, but the C5 Corvette's "grille" is just hidden underneath the nose — there's an opening and a plastic air dam under there that directs air upward into the radiator. This geometry allowed them to make the nose lower and decrease the drag coefficient.
posted by indubitable at 2:16 PM on April 1, 2016
posted by indubitable at 2:16 PM on April 1, 2016
I'd be surprised if coal generation makes up even 1% of the Hydro market here.
I don't think we have any coal plants in BC. I guess it's possible we get some power supplied by Alberta (has a number of coal plants) or Washington (very few coal plants).
I've definitely seen a number of Teslas around downtown Vancouver, and there's a few charging stations too.
posted by Hoopo at 2:22 PM on April 1, 2016
I don't think we have any coal plants in BC. I guess it's possible we get some power supplied by Alberta (has a number of coal plants) or Washington (very few coal plants).
I've definitely seen a number of Teslas around downtown Vancouver, and there's a few charging stations too.
posted by Hoopo at 2:22 PM on April 1, 2016
None of these cars needed a front grille either aesthetically or aesphunctionally
The Caravelle comes closest, but none of those cars have volumes as suggestive of a grille as the Model 3 (except the Citroen DS, which I think actually does have one). It's like there's a grille under there that's been covered with spandex. And it's giving me a mild case of the cognitive dissonances. I'm sure I'll get used to it, though.
I've been a long time Tesla skeptic, but this car is really compelling (especially in the matte colors -- oooh, I love the mattes). Problem is, I'm not sure Tesla can continue to justify charging two to three times more for the S and the X. Especially when all that seems to get me is a dashboard, a slightly bigger car, and maybe some dumb falcon doors.
posted by crumbly at 2:37 PM on April 1, 2016
The Caravelle comes closest, but none of those cars have volumes as suggestive of a grille as the Model 3 (except the Citroen DS, which I think actually does have one). It's like there's a grille under there that's been covered with spandex. And it's giving me a mild case of the cognitive dissonances. I'm sure I'll get used to it, though.
I've been a long time Tesla skeptic, but this car is really compelling (especially in the matte colors -- oooh, I love the mattes). Problem is, I'm not sure Tesla can continue to justify charging two to three times more for the S and the X. Especially when all that seems to get me is a dashboard, a slightly bigger car, and maybe some dumb falcon doors.
posted by crumbly at 2:37 PM on April 1, 2016
Right now, coal is a hair under 10% of the national grid in Canada. Most of that is in Alberta and Saskatchewan, but there's a little bit of coal generation in many provinces still.
BC doesn't use coal at all, but does have some NG (~10%?) and a few small diesel electric sources too. But it's mostly hydro (85%+) and a little bit of renewables right now. Wind and solar aren't (yet) that important.
So those Teslas in Vancouver mostly run on water-power.
posted by bonehead at 2:40 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
BC doesn't use coal at all, but does have some NG (~10%?) and a few small diesel electric sources too. But it's mostly hydro (85%+) and a little bit of renewables right now. Wind and solar aren't (yet) that important.
So those Teslas in Vancouver mostly run on water-power.
posted by bonehead at 2:40 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
The closest charging stations to us are at least 1 hour 30 minutes away, none near my husband's work.
He'd be a prime person for one of these due to his long commute, too.
As for me, not enough of a range, no room for my chair/scoot, and too damn much glass. On top of not having anywhere to charge it.
posted by SuzySmith at 3:00 PM on April 1, 2016
He'd be a prime person for one of these due to his long commute, too.
As for me, not enough of a range, no room for my chair/scoot, and too damn much glass. On top of not having anywhere to charge it.
posted by SuzySmith at 3:00 PM on April 1, 2016
rippersid: ""Electric cars should just be called what they really are - coal powered"
Just saying..."
This really depends on where you are. I'd be surprised if coal generation makes up even 1% of the Hydro market here.
In Colorado your electric vehicle is coal-powered. According to this: (and this, and this)
It is important to remember that the electricity you get might not match your national average for any number of reasons. The night time intensity might vary, you might have solar panels or live in a country like the US, where the grid is actually a bunch of separate grids. For example in Colorado a grid powered electric car is equivalent to about 30 MPGUS, whereas in California it’s up around 70 MPGUS.
posted by alex_skazat at 3:03 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just saying..."
This really depends on where you are. I'd be surprised if coal generation makes up even 1% of the Hydro market here.
In Colorado your electric vehicle is coal-powered. According to this: (and this, and this)
It is important to remember that the electricity you get might not match your national average for any number of reasons. The night time intensity might vary, you might have solar panels or live in a country like the US, where the grid is actually a bunch of separate grids. For example in Colorado a grid powered electric car is equivalent to about 30 MPGUS, whereas in California it’s up around 70 MPGUS.
posted by alex_skazat at 3:03 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
My favorite thing about Tesla is that the logo looks exactly like an IUD.
posted by KathrynT at 3:16 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 3:16 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been a long time Tesla skeptic, but this car is really compelling (especially in the matte colors -- oooh, I love the mattes).
Mattes SUCK. Get a scratch? You can just wax it ou- oh wait, no you can't. No automatic car washes for you. No waxes no polishes no nothing. You have to wash your car more often, and softer, so you don't damage the finish. Bird poop, tree sap, dead bugs? Get them off IMMEDIATELY, because once they dry you may have to apply slight downward pressure to remove them, and you'll screw up the matte finish.
posted by percor at 3:26 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Mattes SUCK. Get a scratch? You can just wax it ou- oh wait, no you can't. No automatic car washes for you. No waxes no polishes no nothing. You have to wash your car more often, and softer, so you don't damage the finish. Bird poop, tree sap, dead bugs? Get them off IMMEDIATELY, because once they dry you may have to apply slight downward pressure to remove them, and you'll screw up the matte finish.
posted by percor at 3:26 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
In Colorado your electric vehicle is coal-powered.
Well, 60% as of 2014, but yeah, that's twice the national average. Hey Colorado: You get 300 days of sunshine a year, put more PV on your roofs!
posted by gwint at 3:28 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, 60% as of 2014, but yeah, that's twice the national average. Hey Colorado: You get 300 days of sunshine a year, put more PV on your roofs!
posted by gwint at 3:28 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
My problem isn't the lack of a grill, but the uncomfortable design where it looks like a grill should be there.
I mean, if you're gonna go grill-less, you have got to come correct. Here's how to have a pretty face without a smile. You don't need a grill to get a thrill.
But the new Tesla, it looks like they forgot to punch out the bit of plastic where the grill is supposed to go to install the trim. It's awkward.
That said, they're going to sell a zillion of them - they are quirky and performant and care about different things than most car makers do. It's the modern day Saab.
posted by Slap*Happy at 3:33 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, if you're gonna go grill-less, you have got to come correct. Here's how to have a pretty face without a smile. You don't need a grill to get a thrill.
But the new Tesla, it looks like they forgot to punch out the bit of plastic where the grill is supposed to go to install the trim. It's awkward.
That said, they're going to sell a zillion of them - they are quirky and performant and care about different things than most car makers do. It's the modern day Saab.
posted by Slap*Happy at 3:33 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
My problem isn't the lack of a grill, but the uncomfortable design where it looks like a grill should be there.
Right. That and there is not much advantage to having a big flat area at the front of the car other than making a big fuss about how OMG LOOK HOW THERE IS NO GRILLE HERE.
Front grilles were reduced to non-functional styling features decades ago. I had a (POS) 1976 Honda Stivik and the radiator was oriented fore-and-aft between the "engine" and the starboard fender. It had a grille, but it obviously didn't need one.
This is not true. It DID need one, otherwise it couldn't get air to go through the side mounted radiator. In fact, it probably needed a bigger grille so that it got enough airflow to pull through the side mounted radiators. Putting the radiator at the side (just like in a proper original mini) doesn't mean it doesn't need a grille, just that it exhausts the cooling air past the engine, through the radiator and into the wheel well rather than under the car like the others.
None of these cars needed a front grille either aesthetically or aesphunctionally
Oh please. Half that list are rear engined, some of them are air cooled (and so don't have radiators anyway) and the rest DO have grilles, they're just under the bumper line - the Corvette and that GodAwful Transam have huge holes in the front of the car, the Passat is almost entirely open underneath the bumper and between the bumper and the bonnet etc). The air intakes are still required and are still there, just not in the same 'grating area between the headlights' as a traditional grille. ALL the cars have engine air intakes - they have not in any way been superfluous for any internal combustion engined car - it's just you either aren't recognising where the grille (ie engine air intake/cooling intake) is or don't understand where the engine itself is. so are looking in the wrong place.
The Tesla truly doesn't need one - it just doesn't need the cooling. Yet it has the space for one (just not an actual intake).
posted by Brockles at 3:43 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Right. That and there is not much advantage to having a big flat area at the front of the car other than making a big fuss about how OMG LOOK HOW THERE IS NO GRILLE HERE.
Front grilles were reduced to non-functional styling features decades ago. I had a (POS) 1976 Honda Stivik and the radiator was oriented fore-and-aft between the "engine" and the starboard fender. It had a grille, but it obviously didn't need one.
This is not true. It DID need one, otherwise it couldn't get air to go through the side mounted radiator. In fact, it probably needed a bigger grille so that it got enough airflow to pull through the side mounted radiators. Putting the radiator at the side (just like in a proper original mini) doesn't mean it doesn't need a grille, just that it exhausts the cooling air past the engine, through the radiator and into the wheel well rather than under the car like the others.
None of these cars needed a front grille either aesthetically or aesphunctionally
Oh please. Half that list are rear engined, some of them are air cooled (and so don't have radiators anyway) and the rest DO have grilles, they're just under the bumper line - the Corvette and that GodAwful Transam have huge holes in the front of the car, the Passat is almost entirely open underneath the bumper and between the bumper and the bonnet etc). The air intakes are still required and are still there, just not in the same 'grating area between the headlights' as a traditional grille. ALL the cars have engine air intakes - they have not in any way been superfluous for any internal combustion engined car - it's just you either aren't recognising where the grille (ie engine air intake/cooling intake) is or don't understand where the engine itself is. so are looking in the wrong place.
The Tesla truly doesn't need one - it just doesn't need the cooling. Yet it has the space for one (just not an actual intake).
posted by Brockles at 3:43 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Saw my first Model X in a supermarket car park the other night...honestly the first thought I had was "hey someone updated the Pontiac Aztek"....It made me very sad. I hope the 3 looks nicer in person.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:45 PM on April 1, 2016
posted by inflatablekiwi at 3:45 PM on April 1, 2016
I forgot the:
You don't need a grill to get a thrill.
You'll find two examples of the Type III on my previous list, one with the little chrome mustache and one without. I loved those cars. After 1970, they ruined it and created the same problem you've identified with the Tesla E: it looks like a something is missing. The earlier variants didn't have that problem.
Psst. I didn't say that these cars were hermetically sealed in front. I didn't say they don't breathe air. I said they have minimal or no grille. For purposes of cooling and combustion, it hasn't been functionally necessary for the air intake to dominate the nose of an automobile for generations. And therefore, it hasn't been a design constraint all this time either, as these examples show. It's been a design choice. So if it has an hyperplastic wizwazzer air intake hidden below the bumper to reduce the drag mumbo jumbo then that just proves my point: it's not a grille and it doesn't dominate the appearance of the front of the car.
Oh please. Half that list are rear engined, some of them are air cooled (and so don't have radiators anyway) and the rest DO have grilles, they're just under the bumper line
The Internet: Where Points Go To Die.
posted by Herodios at 3:49 PM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
You'll find two examples of the Type III on my previous list, one with the little chrome mustache and one without. I loved those cars. After 1970, they ruined it and created the same problem you've identified with the Tesla E: it looks like a something is missing. The earlier variants didn't have that problem.
Psst. I didn't say that these cars were hermetically sealed in front. I didn't say they don't breathe air. I said they have minimal or no grille. For purposes of cooling and combustion, it hasn't been functionally necessary for the air intake to dominate the nose of an automobile for generations. And therefore, it hasn't been a design constraint all this time either, as these examples show. It's been a design choice. So if it has an hyperplastic wizwazzer air intake hidden below the bumper to reduce the drag mumbo jumbo then that just proves my point: it's not a grille and it doesn't dominate the appearance of the front of the car.
Oh please. Half that list are rear engined, some of them are air cooled (and so don't have radiators anyway) and the rest DO have grilles, they're just under the bumper line
The Internet: Where Points Go To Die.
posted by Herodios at 3:49 PM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Just spitballing here... but it's occurred to me that electric, self-driving cars could mitigate the intermittency problem with renewable energy. If there are going to be large-scale car-on-demand services I'd assume there will be a fleets of cars sitting idle part of the time and being moved from place place as demand changes in different neighborhoods or cities. So while the available solar and wind (and tidal?) power waxes and wanes, there's stacks of giant batteries acting as electricity reservoirs scattered throughout the built environment, available to be drawn off of or moved on demand in coordination with personal transport patterns.
posted by 3urypteris at 3:54 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by 3urypteris at 3:54 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
3urypteris: Early stages, but yep-- Vehicle-to-grid.
posted by gwint at 3:58 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by gwint at 3:58 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Internet: Where Points Go To Die.
Not really, because you DID say: "Front grilles were reduced to non-functional styling features decades ago.". Grilles are not 'non-functional' - they are just sometimes not in the bit between the headlights, that is all. It was your assertion that they are a non-functional styling aspect and can be entirely done without that I was refuting, especially when you came up with a huge list of cars that had lots of other reasons that grilles could be done away with or moved from between the headlights through packaging constraints. It wasn't a well made point at all.
The Corvette, in particular, has a major issue with having no headlight -height grille. It would not only be functional but frankly is needed more than a little. It is a hell of a job keeping the thing cooled enough because of the restricted airflow of the front design if you even mildly tune it. Bloody things. We only put a mere 630hp (*cough* tiny upgrade *cough*) and trying to find a nice way to get enough air to stop it melting was very hard. It's close to tapped out on airflow with the standard set up.
posted by Brockles at 3:59 PM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not really, because you DID say: "Front grilles were reduced to non-functional styling features decades ago.". Grilles are not 'non-functional' - they are just sometimes not in the bit between the headlights, that is all. It was your assertion that they are a non-functional styling aspect and can be entirely done without that I was refuting, especially when you came up with a huge list of cars that had lots of other reasons that grilles could be done away with or moved from between the headlights through packaging constraints. It wasn't a well made point at all.
The Corvette, in particular, has a major issue with having no headlight -height grille. It would not only be functional but frankly is needed more than a little. It is a hell of a job keeping the thing cooled enough because of the restricted airflow of the front design if you even mildly tune it. Bloody things. We only put a mere 630hp (*cough* tiny upgrade *cough*) and trying to find a nice way to get enough air to stop it melting was very hard. It's close to tapped out on airflow with the standard set up.
posted by Brockles at 3:59 PM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
The non-grille on the front of the Tesla 3 is obviously a conscious styling decision intended to highlight the fact that it is an electric vehicle. Love it or hate it, there's no chance that it wasn't done specifically to make you look twice. Simply not having a grille wouldn't draw attention to the car's key feature in the same way that having a blanked-out grille area does.
Give it another 20 years and I'm sure it'll look super dated and anachronistic. We'll all be used to seeing electric cars by then, and I'm sure they won't bother to draw attention to the fact that they're electric because it'll no longer be novel. Get used to seeing stuff like this for the next generation or two though.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:30 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Give it another 20 years and I'm sure it'll look super dated and anachronistic. We'll all be used to seeing electric cars by then, and I'm sure they won't bother to draw attention to the fact that they're electric because it'll no longer be novel. Get used to seeing stuff like this for the next generation or two though.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:30 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Just as a point of order, the Model S does indeed have a radiator because it needs to circulate coolant to cool its battery pack(s). So the Model 3 could very well have been designed with a big ol' cheese-grater grille straight out of the 1970s if Tesla had decided to do so.
posted by TheNewWazoo at 4:50 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by TheNewWazoo at 4:50 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can see already that Tesla threads are going to be every bit as informed and rational as Apple threads.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:17 PM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 5:17 PM on April 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hey, did you guys notice the grill? Because that’s the most important thing about all this.
posted by bongo_x at 5:23 PM on April 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 5:23 PM on April 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
Don't get all up in my grille.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:30 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:30 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I saw one of these on 280 when I was driving home a couple weeks ago - a super-rich VC guy getting a preview? - and it was going a very sedate 60 mph.
Having seen the giant screen inside now, I'm kind of terrified. I already see way too many people looking at the phones while they're going 80 mph, and a decent number of them are Tesla drivers.
posted by rtha at 6:07 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Having seen the giant screen inside now, I'm kind of terrified. I already see way too many people looking at the phones while they're going 80 mph, and a decent number of them are Tesla drivers.
posted by rtha at 6:07 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I want some steak on a grill.
Also, my electric car drives smoothly, is fairly cheap to lease (which is great because of the speed at which battery technology is improving) and is very roomy while still being pretty small. The range isn't amazing, but is all I need. I'll proselytize about it til the cows come home.
posted by Night_owl at 6:34 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, my electric car drives smoothly, is fairly cheap to lease (which is great because of the speed at which battery technology is improving) and is very roomy while still being pretty small. The range isn't amazing, but is all I need. I'll proselytize about it til the cows come home.
posted by Night_owl at 6:34 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Having seen the giant screen inside now, I'm kind of terrified. I already see way too many people looking at the phones while they're going 80 mph, and a decent number of them are Tesla drivers.
I used to get really worked up when I would see people focusing on everything other than driving while on the road, but it doesn't seem like education/shaming/legislation actually does anything about it. The (near-)autonomous cars can't get here soon enough.
posted by strange chain at 6:37 PM on April 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just as a point of order, the Model S does indeed have a radiator because it needs to circulate coolant to cool its battery pack(s).
It must have one for the aircon too, surely. Although that presumably won't need as much airflow as in a standard car, as they are usually restricted by being in the same pack as the engine coolant/power steering etc rads.
I like all this development for electrical air conditioning, though, as I like the idea of having a couple of 12V automotive air con systems in my RV for keeping it less GODDAMN HOT when driving along without having to run the generator for the house air con.
Having seen the giant screen inside now, I'm kind of terrified
Hopefully it has a much, much better glare control than all the new screens in the other cars. I find it impossible to dim them to a level I find unobtrusive at night.
posted by Brockles at 6:53 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
It must have one for the aircon too, surely. Although that presumably won't need as much airflow as in a standard car, as they are usually restricted by being in the same pack as the engine coolant/power steering etc rads.
I like all this development for electrical air conditioning, though, as I like the idea of having a couple of 12V automotive air con systems in my RV for keeping it less GODDAMN HOT when driving along without having to run the generator for the house air con.
Having seen the giant screen inside now, I'm kind of terrified
Hopefully it has a much, much better glare control than all the new screens in the other cars. I find it impossible to dim them to a level I find unobtrusive at night.
posted by Brockles at 6:53 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
The only high resolution screen I really want in a car is GPS, and maybe safety camera views when necessary. For most everything else, buttons and dials with simple displays work well, and are much less distracting and cheaper to maintain.
But I am pretty excited about electric cars in general, and it's great to see the technology advance. Also pls make with the self-driving cars asap thanks.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:35 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
But I am pretty excited about electric cars in general, and it's great to see the technology advance. Also pls make with the self-driving cars asap thanks.
posted by krinklyfig at 7:35 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
And may I remind, the internal combustion engine is all about making fuel-air explosions. Lots of them. It's a glorious Rube Goldbergian contraption where gasoline it atomized, mixed with clean, fresh air, squashed down into a dank riot of overheated molecules by the last fuel-air explosion, and then electricity somehow happens, nowadays with computers but in the before-time with some bullshit involving a rotating thingamawhatsit and its good friend the condenser and points.
You have to have a chunk of metal substantial enough to contain this amazing exploding awfulness, and the bits and pieces the explosions made go up and down for decades at a time with minimal maintenance, mostly involving swapping out the lubrication, depending on your 4-cycle gasoline engine. Two-strokes and Diesel support groups over there. Constant fuel-air explosions, coordinated with each other. That's your car.
Tesla? Battery makes a motor go. There are some gear-things to make it so it doesn't go so hard so you don't peel your tires from your rims just to get to walking speed, but the computer programs are in charge, there.
It's completely your call if you trust computers or FUEL-AIR EXPLOSIONS CONTAINED BY METAL more to move your car forward. Just note, the latter relies on computers nowadays.
Hopefully it has a much, much better glare control than all the new screens in the other cars. I find it impossible to dim them to a level I find unobtrusive at night.
Night, when it's raining, on the backup camera. Everything is a black shimmer. The driveway, that rock, that tree, your house...
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:38 PM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
You have to have a chunk of metal substantial enough to contain this amazing exploding awfulness, and the bits and pieces the explosions made go up and down for decades at a time with minimal maintenance, mostly involving swapping out the lubrication, depending on your 4-cycle gasoline engine. Two-strokes and Diesel support groups over there. Constant fuel-air explosions, coordinated with each other. That's your car.
Tesla? Battery makes a motor go. There are some gear-things to make it so it doesn't go so hard so you don't peel your tires from your rims just to get to walking speed, but the computer programs are in charge, there.
It's completely your call if you trust computers or FUEL-AIR EXPLOSIONS CONTAINED BY METAL more to move your car forward. Just note, the latter relies on computers nowadays.
Hopefully it has a much, much better glare control than all the new screens in the other cars. I find it impossible to dim them to a level I find unobtrusive at night.
Night, when it's raining, on the backup camera. Everything is a black shimmer. The driveway, that rock, that tree, your house...
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:38 PM on April 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
The preorder amount is only $1000? I had thought that the amount required was higher, so I am less surprised by the large numbers of people signing up.
An EV with such a short range just isn't viable for my usage (which is a lot of highway miles plus some off road driving), but my usage is an outlier compared to the normal driving patterns (commuting, picking up the kids at school, etc). I'm all for having more and better options available, and with time we will see which are the foundation for an improved transportation system.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:48 PM on April 1, 2016
An EV with such a short range just isn't viable for my usage (which is a lot of highway miles plus some off road driving), but my usage is an outlier compared to the normal driving patterns (commuting, picking up the kids at school, etc). I'm all for having more and better options available, and with time we will see which are the foundation for an improved transportation system.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:48 PM on April 1, 2016
I just looked at the Tesla website out of curiosity - I have the type of driving that might be a good fit (short distances, little if any highway driving). That and my trusty Mazda 3 just hit the 10-year mark. Sadly recharging would be an issue - I don't have a garage and have to park on the street at home, nowhere close to an outlet. Work is the same - I park in a lot nowhere close to a plugin. There's charging stations around here, but the closest one is several miles out of my way. Guess I'll stick with internal combustion for now (or maybe just bike more).
posted by photo guy at 8:13 PM on April 1, 2016
posted by photo guy at 8:13 PM on April 1, 2016
And may I remind, the internal combustion engine is all about making fuel-air explosions. Lots of them. It's a glorious Rube Goldbergian contraption where gasoline it atomized, mixed with clean, fresh air, squashed down into a dank riot of overheated molecules by the last fuel-air explosion, and then electricity somehow happens, nowadays with computers but in the before-time with some bullshit involving a rotating thingamawhatsit and its good friend the condenser and points.
posted by happyroach at 9:40 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
"A reciprocating engine was a collection of miniature heat engines using (in a basically inefficient cycle) a small percentage of an exothermic chemical reaction, a reaction which was started and stopped every split second. Much of the heat was intentionally thrown away into a "water jacket" or "cooling system," then wasted into the atmosphere through a heat exchanger."Robert Heinlein, "The Rolling Stones"
"What little was left caused blocks of metal to thump foolishly back-and-forth (hence the name "reciprocating") and thence through a linkage to cause a shaft and flywheel to spin around. The flywheel (believe it if you can) had no gyroscopic function; it was used to store kinetic energy in a futile attempt to cover up the sins of reciprocation. The shaft at long last caused wheels to turn and thereby propelled this pile of junk over the countryside."
posted by happyroach at 9:40 PM on April 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
A coworker preordered multiple and is planning on selling for a profit, apparently. Madness. (Though pretty smart move, maybe.)
posted by naju at 10:04 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 10:04 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't like the grille treatment. I understand not needing any airflow to go into anywhere, but it seems a bit dumb to leave a flat fronted area like that. It looks clumsy and can't be as aerodynamically efficient (nor as pretty) as a more sculpted front end.--Brockles
News reports say that Elon Musk's goal was for this car to be the most aerodynamically efficient mass produced car in the world. The drag coefficient of a particular design isn't always intuitive, and this may be one of those cases.
posted by eye of newt at 10:49 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
News reports say that Elon Musk's goal was for this car to be the most aerodynamically efficient mass produced car in the world. The drag coefficient of a particular design isn't always intuitive, and this may be one of those cases.
posted by eye of newt at 10:49 PM on April 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The: "The non-grille on the front of the Tesla 3 is obviously a conscious styling decision intended to highlight the fact that it is an electric vehicle."
Well it also has the advantage of giving a lot of internal storage space (which Tesla is using as a selling point) with short overhang (also a selling point) that would be reduced with a pointer nose.
But looking at lists of low Cd vehicles a big upright grill/fascia doesn't seem to hurt drag coefficients much. On both of these lists here and here the only car pictured with what could be consider a slanty nose is the Prius. And it isn't anywhere near as cutting as a 911 or 1st Gen RX-7.
Even the all time Cd leader, if you include sort of production cars, the Volkswagen XL1 (Cd=0.189) has a big slab of flatness up front.
Brockles: "lthough that presumably won't need as much airflow as in a standard car, as they are usually restricted by being in the same pack as the engine coolant/power steering etc rads. "
I wonder how much gain you realistically get though. A/C condensers are usually the first thing in the stack (and on large interior volume/small power plant vehicles are often larger than the engine rad though not as many cores). And the Tesla still has a power-train radiator to cool the batteries. So it will gain some efficiency by the faster air flow but maybe not as much as one would expect if it was a single purpose cooling stack. Offsetting that a bit is A/C systems are often fully loaded at fast idle while the car is not moving so the condenser has to be sized to allow a sufficient air flow to be generated by the fan. My understanding (as a A/C tech) is this is often the overriding factor.
Brockles: "Hopefully it has a much, much better glare control than all the new screens in the other cars. I find it impossible to dim them to a level I find unobtrusive at night."
Back when LED radio displays first hit the aftermarket a lot of the ones I ended up installing didn't dim; not even manually let alone automatically via input from dash light state. A piece of cling vinyl window tinting was my custom solution to dim the displays at night. That would work for these large panels too. Some of them were so bright they could be read at night through a post it note.
posted by Mitheral at 12:32 AM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well it also has the advantage of giving a lot of internal storage space (which Tesla is using as a selling point) with short overhang (also a selling point) that would be reduced with a pointer nose.
But looking at lists of low Cd vehicles a big upright grill/fascia doesn't seem to hurt drag coefficients much. On both of these lists here and here the only car pictured with what could be consider a slanty nose is the Prius. And it isn't anywhere near as cutting as a 911 or 1st Gen RX-7.
Even the all time Cd leader, if you include sort of production cars, the Volkswagen XL1 (Cd=0.189) has a big slab of flatness up front.
Brockles: "lthough that presumably won't need as much airflow as in a standard car, as they are usually restricted by being in the same pack as the engine coolant/power steering etc rads. "
I wonder how much gain you realistically get though. A/C condensers are usually the first thing in the stack (and on large interior volume/small power plant vehicles are often larger than the engine rad though not as many cores). And the Tesla still has a power-train radiator to cool the batteries. So it will gain some efficiency by the faster air flow but maybe not as much as one would expect if it was a single purpose cooling stack. Offsetting that a bit is A/C systems are often fully loaded at fast idle while the car is not moving so the condenser has to be sized to allow a sufficient air flow to be generated by the fan. My understanding (as a A/C tech) is this is often the overriding factor.
Brockles: "Hopefully it has a much, much better glare control than all the new screens in the other cars. I find it impossible to dim them to a level I find unobtrusive at night."
Back when LED radio displays first hit the aftermarket a lot of the ones I ended up installing didn't dim; not even manually let alone automatically via input from dash light state. A piece of cling vinyl window tinting was my custom solution to dim the displays at night. That would work for these large panels too. Some of them were so bright they could be read at night through a post it note.
posted by Mitheral at 12:32 AM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
a big upright grill/fascia doesn't seem to hurt drag coefficients much.
Given that they are devoted to making its driving range as good as possible, I expect Cd will be fine. Consider a teardrop shape, it's flat at the front. The rounded corners make the difference. I'd be slightly more concerned about lift, though not by too much in a car so heavy, with the flat front non-grille appearing to slope the wrong way a little. Maybe that's to channel more air into the intake while keeping it small as possible.
I'd ask for a similar car without touchscreens, superfluous electronic doodads, and so on, but really I'd rather just have a battery good enough to swap into an old 280Z electric conversion and get 200 miles range without adding too much weight or spending too much money. Now that would be a future.
posted by sfenders at 5:13 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Given that they are devoted to making its driving range as good as possible, I expect Cd will be fine. Consider a teardrop shape, it's flat at the front. The rounded corners make the difference. I'd be slightly more concerned about lift, though not by too much in a car so heavy, with the flat front non-grille appearing to slope the wrong way a little. Maybe that's to channel more air into the intake while keeping it small as possible.
I'd ask for a similar car without touchscreens, superfluous electronic doodads, and so on, but really I'd rather just have a battery good enough to swap into an old 280Z electric conversion and get 200 miles range without adding too much weight or spending too much money. Now that would be a future.
posted by sfenders at 5:13 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Presumably, the most aerodynamically efficient car possible would look a lot like the most advanced human-powered vehicles, all of which look pretty much the same nowadays.
Since those bicycles are going at ~130km/h, things like Reynolds number should be close to the same regime in terms of laminar and turbulent flow and separation, even if the cars are two or three times as long.
Would it be possible to build a car close to that shape which would be legal?
Would it be possible to have completely smooth lines as far back as possible - no gaps at the joints of doors and windows, no wheels showing - so that laminar flow can continue as far back as possible?
posted by clawsoon at 5:46 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Since those bicycles are going at ~130km/h, things like Reynolds number should be close to the same regime in terms of laminar and turbulent flow and separation, even if the cars are two or three times as long.
Would it be possible to build a car close to that shape which would be legal?
Would it be possible to have completely smooth lines as far back as possible - no gaps at the joints of doors and windows, no wheels showing - so that laminar flow can continue as far back as possible?
posted by clawsoon at 5:46 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you think the front grille looks stupid, try living in a state that requires front license plates. Because a plate screwed to the front bumper of a grille-less car looks even more stupid.
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:20 AM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:20 AM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think the most important thing Musk has done here is demonstrate that there is one hell of a demand for electric cars. A quarter-million people putting money down on something that won't be delivered for years — other car companies are going to snap to attention. In Musk's books, that's a win: his goal is even more about eliminating petrol than selling Teslas.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:22 AM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by five fresh fish at 6:22 AM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
The model S does have a fair amount of cooling. It has two fairly large condensers on either side to cool the cabin and battery pack (because batteries are really sensitive and often need to be chilled below ambient). Another radiator is low in the center and is on the small side, but by no means tiny. It's used to cool the motor controller, battery charger, DCDC converter, and the electric motor. The waste heat for EVs is less than an ICE car, but the equipment operates at much lower temps so the radiators have to get big again.
posted by TheJoven at 7:42 AM on April 2, 2016
posted by TheJoven at 7:42 AM on April 2, 2016
ICE car
I just want you to know that I'm car illiterate enough that, for a few milliseconds, I read that as "in case of emergency car".
posted by Night_owl at 10:17 AM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just want you to know that I'm car illiterate enough that, for a few milliseconds, I read that as "in case of emergency car".
posted by Night_owl at 10:17 AM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
clawsoon: "Presumably, the most aerodynamically efficient car possible would look a lot like the most advanced human-powered vehicles, "
Cars have primary design constraints that greatly limit their adherence to a practical ideal. They need to meet bumper height; lighting height; pedestrian impact and crash test requirements. They have to have reasonable entrance and egress access for their class and in a mass market sedan/coupe/truck/S-C-X-UV they have to provide it using a conventional door. Faired front wheels present problems in winter driving. Thought has to be given to track width to reduce the chances of roll over. They also have to fit in a standard garage which limits some of the super streamlining techniques in a practical road car.
And halo cars ideally should fit tallish men.
posted by Mitheral at 11:38 AM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Cars have primary design constraints that greatly limit their adherence to a practical ideal. They need to meet bumper height; lighting height; pedestrian impact and crash test requirements. They have to have reasonable entrance and egress access for their class and in a mass market sedan/coupe/truck/S-C-X-UV they have to provide it using a conventional door. Faired front wheels present problems in winter driving. Thought has to be given to track width to reduce the chances of roll over. They also have to fit in a standard garage which limits some of the super streamlining techniques in a practical road car.
And halo cars ideally should fit tallish men.
posted by Mitheral at 11:38 AM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
It has two fairly large condensers on either side to cool the cabin and battery pack (because batteries are really sensitive and often need to be chilled below ambient). Another radiator is low in the center and is on the small side, but by no means tiny.
This is the thing, the heat exchangers in an EV with a skateboard configuration don't need to be in the same places as those of an ICE with a front engine. They can be in a front grille, but they don't necessarily have to be. I note the Model 3 does have a scoop under the nose fairing. I was wondering if that wasn't so much an aerodynamic thing as a cooling duct to direct air under the battery pack at speed.
posted by bonehead at 11:53 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is the thing, the heat exchangers in an EV with a skateboard configuration don't need to be in the same places as those of an ICE with a front engine. They can be in a front grille, but they don't necessarily have to be. I note the Model 3 does have a scoop under the nose fairing. I was wondering if that wasn't so much an aerodynamic thing as a cooling duct to direct air under the battery pack at speed.
posted by bonehead at 11:53 AM on April 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
This model 3 makes my Leaf look like a 1990s EV1.
So happy that EVs have risen from that early grave dug by GM.
I got my Leaf to drive 40 miles every workday, and as long as it can do that I'll be keeping it.
My previous car was a Miata, and what I'd really really really like is the above-mentioned EV 280Z, well actually an EV Mk 3 RX-7, the most beautiful car ever made, dollar for dollar at least.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:08 PM on April 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
So happy that EVs have risen from that early grave dug by GM.
I got my Leaf to drive 40 miles every workday, and as long as it can do that I'll be keeping it.
My previous car was a Miata, and what I'd really really really like is the above-mentioned EV 280Z, well actually an EV Mk 3 RX-7, the most beautiful car ever made, dollar for dollar at least.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:08 PM on April 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
not to derail too much, but the whole trend for ridiculous-diameter wheels stems entirely from a practical need in GT racing - which was to fit as ginormous brake mechanisms as possible. and the resulting consumer "oh wow that looks really cool!"
look up 'unsprung mass', there are a few potential advantages, but it is a very negative thing in most aspects of normal people driving daily. narrower tires, higher sidewalls, smaller rims == better gas-mileage, better overall handling, better ride/feel, better weather handling. it just doesn't look as cool.
on-topic, 35k is sounding more and more reasonable, still not that I'll ever probably be able to afford that. but it's great to see more and more fabs realizing they need to jump on the wagon, so maybe one day...
posted by dorian at 1:30 AM on April 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
look up 'unsprung mass', there are a few potential advantages, but it is a very negative thing in most aspects of normal people driving daily. narrower tires, higher sidewalls, smaller rims == better gas-mileage, better overall handling, better ride/feel, better weather handling. it just doesn't look as cool.
on-topic, 35k is sounding more and more reasonable, still not that I'll ever probably be able to afford that. but it's great to see more and more fabs realizing they need to jump on the wagon, so maybe one day...
posted by dorian at 1:30 AM on April 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
look up 'unsprung mass', there are a few potential advantages,
In racing, yes. But the weight of a race wheel is much, much less than a road car wheel. Plus a race tyre is a very different beast (construction and mass) to a road car tyre. There is not significant gains in unsprung mass to run a larger wheel with a road tyre, and those gains (wheel control in damping) are offset against ride quality (also low profile tyres impact wheel/tyre control for the damping). Low profile tyres are *heavy* (lots of steel to cope with managing the same loads in a smaller space) and large road wheels are either extremely expensive or heavy. It's not quite the simple 'a wheel is lighter than a tyre' equation.
posted by Brockles at 9:08 AM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
In racing, yes. But the weight of a race wheel is much, much less than a road car wheel. Plus a race tyre is a very different beast (construction and mass) to a road car tyre. There is not significant gains in unsprung mass to run a larger wheel with a road tyre, and those gains (wheel control in damping) are offset against ride quality (also low profile tyres impact wheel/tyre control for the damping). Low profile tyres are *heavy* (lots of steel to cope with managing the same loads in a smaller space) and large road wheels are either extremely expensive or heavy. It's not quite the simple 'a wheel is lighter than a tyre' equation.
posted by Brockles at 9:08 AM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm always bummed by how the EV market is pretty much locked to rich people and homeowners, because my driving is perfectly within the range of an EV, but no driveway means no home charging station and slinging a hundred foot extension cord across the sidewalk to whatever parking spot on the street in my vernacular American small town I end up in each day is not a plan.
Mind you, when I get rich enough for a Zero or similar electric motorcycle (or when Vespa gets into the business, because Corradino D'Ascanio was right about motorcycles), I can park in the forsythia and throw a cord out of my bedroom window.
posted by sonascope at 10:25 AM on April 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Mind you, when I get rich enough for a Zero or similar electric motorcycle (or when Vespa gets into the business, because Corradino D'Ascanio was right about motorcycles), I can park in the forsythia and throw a cord out of my bedroom window.
posted by sonascope at 10:25 AM on April 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
"I'm holding out for a car that will run off my own body fat."
You're thinking of a bicycle.
I have to react to this because I'm facing this exact dilemma. A bicycle doesn't get me to work clean, non-sweaty, non-smelly, non-hair-messy, not drenched when it's raining. A car does. Plus a car doesn't significantly raise the probability of me getting hit by a vehicle or falling due to slippery/snowy streets.
posted by gakiko at 3:38 AM on April 4, 2016
You're thinking of a bicycle.
I have to react to this because I'm facing this exact dilemma. A bicycle doesn't get me to work clean, non-sweaty, non-smelly, non-hair-messy, not drenched when it's raining. A car does. Plus a car doesn't significantly raise the probability of me getting hit by a vehicle or falling due to slippery/snowy streets.
posted by gakiko at 3:38 AM on April 4, 2016
gakiko: A bicycle doesn't get me to work clean, non-sweaty, non-smelly, non-hair-messy, not drenched when it's raining.
You could get rid of the weather objections with a fully-faired bicycle (which would probably cost you as much as a cheap used car, but... y'know).
However, if you want to run it off your body fat, heat will be produced, and heat will lead to sweat and stink. That's why most long-distance cycling commuters I know wash up and change into a second pair of clothes once they get to work. That's much easier if your employer has a shower somewhere in the building, of course.
posted by clawsoon at 8:57 AM on April 4, 2016
You could get rid of the weather objections with a fully-faired bicycle (which would probably cost you as much as a cheap used car, but... y'know).
However, if you want to run it off your body fat, heat will be produced, and heat will lead to sweat and stink. That's why most long-distance cycling commuters I know wash up and change into a second pair of clothes once they get to work. That's much easier if your employer has a shower somewhere in the building, of course.
posted by clawsoon at 8:57 AM on April 4, 2016
So I was out at a bar with my wife on Friday and managed to get a little tipsy and went ahead and reserved one on my phone. I don't care much about cars and paying this much for one will be hard for me. But I do like the idea of cutting edge technology, autopilot and a fully electric car. I know a few people who have the S and they rave constantly. It's going to take some figuring out because right now I do two things with my car, commute and take weekend trips ~400 miles north to climb or kayak. Figuring out how to deal with the kayaks (trailer?) is going to be interesting. There are already a couple super chargers along the way so a cup of coffee and a charge in Duluth is an option. But I'll have a couple of years to figure that stuff out.
Also, kudos for the buying experience. My last car I walked in to the dealer and said "here is money give me that car" and they still spent two days trying to upsell me on underbody coating and free key replacement crap. And then spent weeks bugging me to rate the experience while reminding me that "anything less than excellent is a failure for us".
I like sedans because I end up hauling a lot of gear for trips and think SUV's are kind of stupid. A sedan has plenty of room (I drive a Mazda 6) and with two trunks the 3 will have even more.
I may spring for all-wheel drive because winter in the BWCA can be interesting and I winter camp a lot.
When all is said and done, the 3 may not be the perfect solution, but I can always rent a car (or grab my wife's' Fiat Abarth) when I need a gas vehicle. In fact, that's what I currently do for long road trips - less wear-and-tear on my car and no worries about breakdowns. Plus, no road trip stench in the car when you get home.
Looking forward to the adventure of figuring it out.
posted by misterpatrick at 11:13 AM on April 4, 2016
Also, kudos for the buying experience. My last car I walked in to the dealer and said "here is money give me that car" and they still spent two days trying to upsell me on underbody coating and free key replacement crap. And then spent weeks bugging me to rate the experience while reminding me that "anything less than excellent is a failure for us".
I like sedans because I end up hauling a lot of gear for trips and think SUV's are kind of stupid. A sedan has plenty of room (I drive a Mazda 6) and with two trunks the 3 will have even more.
I may spring for all-wheel drive because winter in the BWCA can be interesting and I winter camp a lot.
When all is said and done, the 3 may not be the perfect solution, but I can always rent a car (or grab my wife's' Fiat Abarth) when I need a gas vehicle. In fact, that's what I currently do for long road trips - less wear-and-tear on my car and no worries about breakdowns. Plus, no road trip stench in the car when you get home.
Looking forward to the adventure of figuring it out.
posted by misterpatrick at 11:13 AM on April 4, 2016
I'm always bummed by how the EV market is pretty much locked to rich people and homeowners
That's entirely a function of how much the batteries cost. The cars themselves are quite a bite simpler than an ICE vehicle. Building the big factories like the one Tesla is building now are the best hope at doing that. Their Gigafactory, the one needed to meet a demand of roughly half a million cars per year in Nevada will double the world output of battery capacity. It goes to show that even with all those tiny computers in our pockets these days, the energy storage humanity has is really still tiny compared to the other ways we use energy. Scaling that up will hopefully also make this more affordable, but batteries are nowhere near as easy to rapidly improve compared to ICs. Thermodynamics is much, much harder to finesse than informatics.
posted by bonehead at 11:56 AM on April 4, 2016
That's entirely a function of how much the batteries cost. The cars themselves are quite a bite simpler than an ICE vehicle. Building the big factories like the one Tesla is building now are the best hope at doing that. Their Gigafactory, the one needed to meet a demand of roughly half a million cars per year in Nevada will double the world output of battery capacity. It goes to show that even with all those tiny computers in our pockets these days, the energy storage humanity has is really still tiny compared to the other ways we use energy. Scaling that up will hopefully also make this more affordable, but batteries are nowhere near as easy to rapidly improve compared to ICs. Thermodynamics is much, much harder to finesse than informatics.
posted by bonehead at 11:56 AM on April 4, 2016
The "and homeowners" part is still a problem: if you don't have a place to plug it in at home, an EV becomes much harder to justify -- unless you're willing to tether yourself to only workplaces that offer charging.
I suspect that doesn't change unless/until either rapid charging becomes as quick and convenient as filling up with gasoline, or until charger infrastructure becomes cheap and ubiquitous enough that it does end up becoming retrofitted into most existing housing and workplace stock. I think both of those are a way off yet; most parking garages around me seem to have only a couple of charging stations.
In a few years there will be outlets in parking meters.
I'll bet not; would require running power to the meters, most of them currently are battery-powered.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 3:17 PM on April 4, 2016
I suspect that doesn't change unless/until either rapid charging becomes as quick and convenient as filling up with gasoline, or until charger infrastructure becomes cheap and ubiquitous enough that it does end up becoming retrofitted into most existing housing and workplace stock. I think both of those are a way off yet; most parking garages around me seem to have only a couple of charging stations.
In a few years there will be outlets in parking meters.
I'll bet not; would require running power to the meters, most of them currently are battery-powered.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 3:17 PM on April 4, 2016
There's a Whole Foods in my city where there is a charging station freestanding (not near anything else electrical) in the parking lot. It would require a big investment, but it could be done.
posted by Night_owl at 10:23 PM on April 4, 2016
posted by Night_owl at 10:23 PM on April 4, 2016
@elonmusk: Over 325k cars or ~$14B in preorders in first week. Only 5% ordered max of two, suggesting low levels of speculation.
For comparison, last year the best selling mid-size car was the Toyota Camry, which sold 430K in the U.S. in 2015. Obviously Tesla can't make the Model 3 fast enough to sell all those pre-orders in a single year, but it's still insane. Another stat: TOTAL EV sales in the U.S. for 2015 was about 120K.
posted by gwint at 12:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
For comparison, last year the best selling mid-size car was the Toyota Camry, which sold 430K in the U.S. in 2015. Obviously Tesla can't make the Model 3 fast enough to sell all those pre-orders in a single year, but it's still insane. Another stat: TOTAL EV sales in the U.S. for 2015 was about 120K.
posted by gwint at 12:12 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thermodynamics is much, much harder to finesse than informatics.
A useful reference point for this is the concept of energy density of a given fuel.
Diesel fuel and gasoline contain approximately 50 MJ/kg.
Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries contain approximately 0.4–0.9 MJ/kg
In other words, you can carry 50-100 times as much stored energy in liquid petroleum as you can carry in the equivalent weight of LION batteries.
posted by theorique at 12:59 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
A useful reference point for this is the concept of energy density of a given fuel.
Diesel fuel and gasoline contain approximately 50 MJ/kg.
Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries contain approximately 0.4–0.9 MJ/kg
In other words, you can carry 50-100 times as much stored energy in liquid petroleum as you can carry in the equivalent weight of LION batteries.
posted by theorique at 12:59 PM on April 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The most amazing thing about this, to me, is that Tesla are currently building the biggest factory in the world so that they will be able to gain battery production economies of scale in order to make this car viable at $35k.
posted by memebake at 3:30 PM on April 7, 2016
posted by memebake at 3:30 PM on April 7, 2016
For comparison, last year the best selling mid-size car was the Toyota Camry, which sold 430K in the U.S. in 2015. Obviously Tesla can't make the Model 3 fast enough to sell all those pre-orders in a single year, but it's still insane. Another stat: TOTAL EV sales in the U.S. for 2015 was about 120K.Doesn't at assume a 100% conversion rate though?
I'm willing to bet that a hell of a lot of those $1000 deposits won't convert.
Hell, I'd be tempted to put down $1000 to reserve* a car I thought was cool if I knew I could get it back at any time with no penalty!
---
* Of course in this case it's not actually a reservation or guarantee of availability or anything like that, but the point still stands.
posted by -1 at 6:05 PM on April 7, 2016
Nobody forks over a grand on a lark, least of all the rich. This is the new Model T, the new Volkswagen Type 1, the new Citroën 2CV.
At two bucks a gallon, gasoline is still too dear for what remains of the American Middle Class. Tesla is gonna make a fucking mint, as nobody tosses away a grand on a whim these days.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:33 PM on April 7, 2016
At two bucks a gallon, gasoline is still too dear for what remains of the American Middle Class. Tesla is gonna make a fucking mint, as nobody tosses away a grand on a whim these days.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:33 PM on April 7, 2016
as nobody tosses away a grand on a whim these days.
wut?
Sure, maybe not on a whim, but this is silicon valley and the other scattered remains of the middle class. For someone making 200K+ this is an investment, not money tossed away.
I have co-workers who have spent a grand on dinner. Again, not on a whim, but people with money to spare still exist out there.
posted by GuyZero at 8:45 PM on April 7, 2016
wut?
Sure, maybe not on a whim, but this is silicon valley and the other scattered remains of the middle class. For someone making 200K+ this is an investment, not money tossed away.
I have co-workers who have spent a grand on dinner. Again, not on a whim, but people with money to spare still exist out there.
posted by GuyZero at 8:45 PM on April 7, 2016
At two bucks a gallon, gasoline is still too dear for what remains of the American Middle Class
I should consolidate comments, but... again, wut?
The preponderance of people driving their F150s to the grocery store says otherwise.
posted by GuyZero at 8:46 PM on April 7, 2016
I should consolidate comments, but... again, wut?
The preponderance of people driving their F150s to the grocery store says otherwise.
posted by GuyZero at 8:46 PM on April 7, 2016
Even if they only eventually sold half of what has been reserved, it's still a huge shift in demand and a wake up call to Detroit to start taking EVs seriously. It will be very interesting to see how the Chevy Bolt sells when it arrives later this year. I think that will indicate whether we're talking about the start of a major shift to EVs, or just a halo around the Tesla brand.
Also, Tesla now has an extra $325,000,000 in the bank to help accelerate their production.
posted by gwint at 6:21 AM on April 8, 2016
Also, Tesla now has an extra $325,000,000 in the bank to help accelerate their production.
posted by gwint at 6:21 AM on April 8, 2016
I have co-workers who have spent a grand on dinner.
This line of thought is perhaps not as developed as it should be. People who make 200K+ are buying the S or X with the "Ludicrous Speed" package. This car is priced right where mini-vans and midsize SUVs and up-optioned Pickups live - it's for ordinary people, and ordinary people are laying down money for it. There are nicer toys for fad-obsessed upper-middleclass techno-hipsters.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:25 AM on April 8, 2016
This line of thought is perhaps not as developed as it should be. People who make 200K+ are buying the S or X with the "Ludicrous Speed" package. This car is priced right where mini-vans and midsize SUVs and up-optioned Pickups live - it's for ordinary people, and ordinary people are laying down money for it. There are nicer toys for fad-obsessed upper-middleclass techno-hipsters.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:25 AM on April 8, 2016
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