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September 10, 2016 2:50 PM Subscribe
Do we really want to fuse our brains together? Mefi fave Peter Watts writes on research into merging minds in Aeon.
Keep the bandwidth too low and you lose the experience; edge it too high and you lose yourself
His buyer for the three megabytes of hot RAM in the Hitachi wasn't taking calls.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:45 PM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
His buyer for the three megabytes of hot RAM in the Hitachi wasn't taking calls.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:45 PM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]
Do we really want to fuse our brains together?
Well, that could be an interesting cognitive experiment that could result in
Mefi fave Peter Watts
Disconnect! Disconnect! OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?
posted by Artw at 3:47 PM on September 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
Well, that could be an interesting cognitive experiment that could result in
Mefi fave Peter Watts
Disconnect! Disconnect! OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE?
posted by Artw at 3:47 PM on September 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
This is basically an essay-length treatment of what he was saying about hive minds in his most recent book.
posted by AdamCSnider at 4:59 PM on September 10, 2016
posted by AdamCSnider at 4:59 PM on September 10, 2016
"Fusing our brains together" is not a thing. It's not even close to being a thing. The whole idea is several orders of magnitude beyond both current biological and computer technology.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:03 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:03 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
He's mainly talking about fusing specific parts of the brain, those that seem to be most implicated in consciousness.
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:04 PM on September 10, 2016
posted by AdamCSnider at 5:04 PM on September 10, 2016
Don't you just have to take ecstasy at a rave to get fused minds?
posted by njohnson23 at 5:10 PM on September 10, 2016
posted by njohnson23 at 5:10 PM on September 10, 2016
Don't you just have to take ecstasy at a rave to get fused minds?
Or just pay your $5 & think up a clever username.
posted by scalefree at 5:14 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Or just pay your $5 & think up a clever username.
posted by scalefree at 5:14 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
This stuff about how you anesthetize half the brain and get a totally different person from the person that the two halves are together, plus
the local personae are obliterated, absorbed into a greater whole
...I'm getting a lot of Steven Universe feelings.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 5:14 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
the local personae are obliterated, absorbed into a greater whole
...I'm getting a lot of Steven Universe feelings.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 5:14 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is an idea that's been gaining traction in science fiction for a while now. From Vernor Vinge's True Names to Spider Robinson in his Callahan's series & Ramez Naam's Nexus trilogy, it's an idea that grabs our imagination. Watts uses his science education (MSc from Guelph Univ., PhD in zoology from UBC) to inform his fiction. He's not saying we're there or near there yet, he's just exploring the nuts & bolts of how it might or might not be possible.
posted by scalefree at 5:34 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by scalefree at 5:34 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
He's mainly talking about fusing specific parts of the brain, those that seem to be most implicated in consciousness.
So, like an echo chamber.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 6:18 PM on September 10, 2016
So, like an echo chamber.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 6:18 PM on September 10, 2016
"Somehow the meat woke up. How the hell does that even work?" You see a lot of surrender of volition as it is in our species, when charismatics work the crowd, or predatory types find their marks, HOA meetings, snort. Anyway, there were a lot of wounded left over from the military drug experiments. Then each lab will define consciousness according to the most alpha scientist present, and their take, will determine their level of concern for the finer, more numinous issues. The range of opinion as to what constitutes consciousness and identity is broad to put it in flat affect. As Mercutio said in Romeo and Juliet, regarding his wounds, "Not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church door, but t'will serve. Ask for me tomorrow, and you shall find me a grave man."
posted by Oyéah at 6:43 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 6:43 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Worst pickup line ever.
The title?
I'd go for it.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:46 PM on September 10, 2016
The title?
I'd go for it.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 7:46 PM on September 10, 2016
"Fusing our brains together" is not a thing.
Maybe trite, but I think mind is what you mean because the article describes more than one experiment whereby brains were connected. Connecting brains is certainly a thing. And I don't follow how the article might be satire as a valid criticism. I haven't parsed the article, but a quick read revealed nothing particularly outrageous to me. What's an extraordinary claim without extraordinary proof here?
My first fictional reference was Aldiss/Kubrick/Spielberg's A.I. near the end when aliens share the "download" of David's memories by a Conga line, but hand to shoulder. But that's because I don't read nearly enough.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 9:15 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe trite, but I think mind is what you mean because the article describes more than one experiment whereby brains were connected. Connecting brains is certainly a thing. And I don't follow how the article might be satire as a valid criticism. I haven't parsed the article, but a quick read revealed nothing particularly outrageous to me. What's an extraordinary claim without extraordinary proof here?
My first fictional reference was Aldiss/Kubrick/Spielberg's A.I. near the end when aliens share the "download" of David's memories by a Conga line, but hand to shoulder. But that's because I don't read nearly enough.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 9:15 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Immersed in that pool – reduced from standalone soul down to neural subroutine – there might not be enough of you left to even want to get out again.
I think there's a moral argument to be made that you shouldn't want to get out again.
If group minds of this kind operate as intelligence amplifiers, then like any other performance-enhancing factor, the field of competition will inevitably force corporations to use them unless prevented by regulation, which seems unlikely. This would happen first in their engineering departments, then extending into management. (Engineering first because rate of return depends on always having new product for market, management next because the bosses can't risk letting the tail wag the dog.)
The thing is, corporations as collections of individuals are biggest-psychopath-takes-all, with one or a small cadre of nosferatu either rising to seize executive control, or being placed in control by shareholders. But even in management, most individuals are not psychopaths. So if group minds are sums of their separate members' traits, psychopathy would dilute as the number of non-psychopathic members increase. (This may not be true, since TFA said that halves of a brain can manifest radically different personalities from each other and the integrated whole.)
But if so, then some minimum proportion of psychopathic/non-psychopathic brains would be required to prevent the collection from wanting to engage in psychopathic behavior. (Call it the "better together" hypothesis.) Once a sufficient number of non-psychopathic brains are joined, the collective itself should be able to recognize that releasing those brains would only increase the risk of its submerged psychopathic traits becoming dominant, leading to negative long-term consequences for the society, leading to worse outcomes for its members. Therefore its worst-case conjoined existence, in minimizing the harm of its most toxic elements, is more moral than the best-case outcome as separated individuals. So not only will market pressures force corporations to fuse our brains together the instant that this technology becomes available, it is in fact essential that we do so. *jazz hands*
tl;dr The Borg > late-stage capitalism. C- freshman philosophy paper, you can do better
posted by Brie Fantasy at 9:35 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think there's a moral argument to be made that you shouldn't want to get out again.
If group minds of this kind operate as intelligence amplifiers, then like any other performance-enhancing factor, the field of competition will inevitably force corporations to use them unless prevented by regulation, which seems unlikely. This would happen first in their engineering departments, then extending into management. (Engineering first because rate of return depends on always having new product for market, management next because the bosses can't risk letting the tail wag the dog.)
The thing is, corporations as collections of individuals are biggest-psychopath-takes-all, with one or a small cadre of nosferatu either rising to seize executive control, or being placed in control by shareholders. But even in management, most individuals are not psychopaths. So if group minds are sums of their separate members' traits, psychopathy would dilute as the number of non-psychopathic members increase. (This may not be true, since TFA said that halves of a brain can manifest radically different personalities from each other and the integrated whole.)
But if so, then some minimum proportion of psychopathic/non-psychopathic brains would be required to prevent the collection from wanting to engage in psychopathic behavior. (Call it the "better together" hypothesis.) Once a sufficient number of non-psychopathic brains are joined, the collective itself should be able to recognize that releasing those brains would only increase the risk of its submerged psychopathic traits becoming dominant, leading to negative long-term consequences for the society, leading to worse outcomes for its members. Therefore its worst-case conjoined existence, in minimizing the harm of its most toxic elements, is more moral than the best-case outcome as separated individuals. So not only will market pressures force corporations to fuse our brains together the instant that this technology becomes available, it is in fact essential that we do so. *jazz hands*
tl;dr The Borg > late-stage capitalism. C- freshman philosophy paper, you can do better
posted by Brie Fantasy at 9:35 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hyperempathy:
I was intrigued by the possibilities suggested by a woman who began suffering the condition after an operation on her amygdala. I speculated more manageable and temporary hyperempathy might be achieved with transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS). It turns out some promising preliminary experiments have been carried out with transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS):
Induction of mirror-touch synaesthesia by increasing somatosensory cortical excitability
Aldous Huxley had something like this in mind with his description of "the feelies," in Brave New World.
Hyper-empathy and mirror-touch synaesthesia
tDCS and hybrid encephalographic sensors have already been employed to attempt a kind of "instrumental telepathy":
Learn how to fly a plane from expert-pilot brainwave patterns
posted by 0rison at 9:49 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was intrigued by the possibilities suggested by a woman who began suffering the condition after an operation on her amygdala. I speculated more manageable and temporary hyperempathy might be achieved with transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS). It turns out some promising preliminary experiments have been carried out with transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS):
Induction of mirror-touch synaesthesia by increasing somatosensory cortical excitability
Aldous Huxley had something like this in mind with his description of "the feelies," in Brave New World.
Hyper-empathy and mirror-touch synaesthesia
tDCS and hybrid encephalographic sensors have already been employed to attempt a kind of "instrumental telepathy":
Learn how to fly a plane from expert-pilot brainwave patterns
posted by 0rison at 9:49 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
> "Fusing our brains together" is not a thing. It's not even close to being a thing. The whole idea is several orders of magnitude beyond both current biological and computer technology.
> From Vernor Vinge's True Names to Spider Robinson in his Callahan's series & Ramez Naam's Nexus trilogy, it's an idea that grabs our imagination.
naam talks about some research experiments in 'brain fusion' (on animals) here :P
also fwiw, from what i've heard about mirror neurons, the 'simple' act of conversation causes participants' brains to sync up (at least when having a 'good' or 'deep' one!)
posted by kliuless at 12:12 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
> From Vernor Vinge's True Names to Spider Robinson in his Callahan's series & Ramez Naam's Nexus trilogy, it's an idea that grabs our imagination.
naam talks about some research experiments in 'brain fusion' (on animals) here :P
also fwiw, from what i've heard about mirror neurons, the 'simple' act of conversation causes participants' brains to sync up (at least when having a 'good' or 'deep' one!)
posted by kliuless at 12:12 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
This stuff about how you anesthetize half the brain and get a totally different person
That seemed overstated to me. It's not surprising that anaesthetising half your brain affects the way you behave. A stiff glass of whisky does that. Did the person perceive themselves as a different entity? Did they have different memories or talk about their earlier selves in the third person? If you merely change their manner it seems inflated to say you've generated a new person.
posted by Segundus at 3:29 AM on September 11, 2016
That seemed overstated to me. It's not surprising that anaesthetising half your brain affects the way you behave. A stiff glass of whisky does that. Did the person perceive themselves as a different entity? Did they have different memories or talk about their earlier selves in the third person? If you merely change their manner it seems inflated to say you've generated a new person.
posted by Segundus at 3:29 AM on September 11, 2016
Robert Silverberg wrote several interesting SF novels about mind-sharing themes in the middle of his career in the late 60's and early 70's (his best work in my view). They often morphed into drug metaphors, and they often had a dark and complex tone.
posted by ovvl at 9:14 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 9:14 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
So if group minds are sums of their separate members' traits, psychopathy would dilute as the number of non-psychopathic members increase.
That's an interesting thought. My speculation is that empathy functions best between individuals and and tends to dilute in larger groups, so the psychopathology of corporations (or group minds) is directly related to the fact of it's larger scale. A large composite will become less empathetic because of it's size and structure.
posted by ovvl at 9:44 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's an interesting thought. My speculation is that empathy functions best between individuals and and tends to dilute in larger groups, so the psychopathology of corporations (or group minds) is directly related to the fact of it's larger scale. A large composite will become less empathetic because of it's size and structure.
posted by ovvl at 9:44 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
In my way of thinking, even wanting this, rationalizing this, using public monies for this, constitutes psychopathy. The reasons for this will always be covert, then covert activity, then secrecy, domination, theft of younger forms for older entities' use, voyeurism. Either the poor or weak will be attracted to the labs, or people enlisted in the military will be coerced, whether subtly, or by deception. End goal is not enlightenment, but domination, cyborg warriors, enhanced security for the taker class. In this life the one for sure gift you get is self. Now mass quantities of money applied for the surrender of that. I don't care how they sell it.
posted by Oyéah at 11:38 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 11:38 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
TBH, I can barely understand what you're saying most of the time, but: yeah, agreed, 100%.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:29 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:29 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ohyéah, in other words, "disagree with me on this subject, and I will diagnose you with a mental disorder without having ever met you". Seems reasonable.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:41 PM on September 11, 2016
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:41 PM on September 11, 2016
Group minds are dynamic systems with emergent behavior, and so they are more than just the sum of their member's traits, just like individual minds are more than just the sum of individual neurons firing.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:03 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:03 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Any declarative statements about the properties of group minds should use a speculative conditional tense. For all we know group minds are all cronenbergs.
posted by Horkus at 3:04 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Horkus at 3:04 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't go that far, but Vampire Domestication remains my favorite thing of his.
posted by Artw at 2:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:22 PM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
(Also fiction in the form of an essay is still fiction, blah de blah de blah, etc.)
posted by Artw at 2:23 PM on September 12, 2016
posted by Artw at 2:23 PM on September 12, 2016
I don't want empathy, but I do want my mind to live on immortally as computer code.
Don't you just have to take ecstasy at a rave to get fused minds?
In Spider Robinson's books, you just need to smoke pot with people. But he also had group minds from the future in his other books. See also: instrumentality in Evangelion, immanatizing the eschaton.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 11:29 PM on September 12, 2016
Don't you just have to take ecstasy at a rave to get fused minds?
In Spider Robinson's books, you just need to smoke pot with people. But he also had group minds from the future in his other books. See also: instrumentality in Evangelion, immanatizing the eschaton.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 11:29 PM on September 12, 2016
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