After AfterEllen
November 3, 2016 7:48 AM Subscribe
via Buzzfeed: Why Aren’t Advertisers Interested In Selling Stuff To Lesbians? It’s not good enough to put a lesbian couple in an ad but then fail to support LGBT employees or events like pride celebrations. Absolut vodka and Subaru were advertising with queer messaging in queer publications when no one else would. “There a lot of brands I am die-hard loyal to because I’ve seen them at events,” said Grace. She says there are companies she feels she can trust thanks to their LGBT marketing. “When I go to a Marriott, I know I won’t have to worry about being discriminated against, I know the person behind the desk won’t ask me and my wife if we want two beds.” (Previously)
Wait, how is it discriminatory to *ask* if someone wants two beds? Just assuming two beds, that'd be rude as hell. But I've definitely shared hotel rooms with someone where I wanted two beds, and it would have been amusingly awkward had they just decided we only wanted one.
posted by FatherDagon at 8:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by FatherDagon at 8:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Wait, how is it discriminatory to *ask* if someone wants two beds? Just assuming two beds, that'd be rude as hell.
Yeah, I was going to say the exact same thing. If that is something that you consider being 'discriminated against' you may need to wind back your sensitivity meter. It's a customer service question. The fact that they *ask* means they are happy to accommodate either option. It's choice and good customer service to ask instead of assuming either way.
posted by Brockles at 8:27 AM on November 3, 2016 [14 favorites]
Yeah, I was going to say the exact same thing. If that is something that you consider being 'discriminated against' you may need to wind back your sensitivity meter. It's a customer service question. The fact that they *ask* means they are happy to accommodate either option. It's choice and good customer service to ask instead of assuming either way.
posted by Brockles at 8:27 AM on November 3, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm think in this context "discriminated against" and "asked about two beds" are mentioned as two separate things. The former is awful, the latter is, I would guess, extremely annoying after the ten thousandth time because of the way it reinforces heteronormativity.
posted by griphus at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by griphus at 8:37 AM on November 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
I think "how many beds do you need?" is a good question.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
If I reserve a king bed it would be pretty annoying to repeatedly be asked if I really want it when I show up at the reservation desk because of assumptions made about my wife and me.
If there's no bed type reserved, sure, it shouldn't bother anyone to be asked what they want.
posted by grouse at 8:47 AM on November 3, 2016 [25 favorites]
If there's no bed type reserved, sure, it shouldn't bother anyone to be asked what they want.
posted by grouse at 8:47 AM on November 3, 2016 [25 favorites]
roomthreeseventeen:
I think "how many beds do you need?" is a good question.
Waggling ones eyebrows and asking "how many have you got?" is a good answer.
posted by dr_dank at 8:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [36 favorites]
I think "how many beds do you need?" is a good question.
Waggling ones eyebrows and asking "how many have you got?" is a good answer.
posted by dr_dank at 8:50 AM on November 3, 2016 [36 favorites]
"how many beds do you need?"
None- it will only get in the way of our yurt.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:54 AM on November 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
None- it will only get in the way of our yurt.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:54 AM on November 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
If I reserve a king bed it would be pretty annoying to repeatedly be asked if I really want it when I show up at the reservation desk because of assumptions made about my wife and me.
I'm asked to confirm the room/bed type is the same as I intended to book almost every single time I check into a hotel (at least once a week). Whether I am alone or whether I have an (also male) work colleague with me. I think people are getting their hackles raised and attributing entirely unconnected 'assumptions' to it. The bed set up also affects the rate, and the bed set up is how they distinguish the rooms that set that different rate.
There is every chance the staff don't give two shits what you do in the room or who you do it with. There is every chance they are just making sure you are getting the room you are paying for.
posted by Brockles at 8:56 AM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm asked to confirm the room/bed type is the same as I intended to book almost every single time I check into a hotel (at least once a week). Whether I am alone or whether I have an (also male) work colleague with me. I think people are getting their hackles raised and attributing entirely unconnected 'assumptions' to it. The bed set up also affects the rate, and the bed set up is how they distinguish the rooms that set that different rate.
There is every chance the staff don't give two shits what you do in the room or who you do it with. There is every chance they are just making sure you are getting the room you are paying for.
posted by Brockles at 8:56 AM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think the thing is that these days, you generally reserve the room you want, including the bed configuration? One kind of "family" restaurant that I used to go to with my girlfriend on a regular basis asked if we wanted separate checks every. single. time. we went there. We never once mentioned anything about wanting separate checks and never wanted separate checks. We had the same wait staff regularly. Go to the same restaurant with a male friend, and we have to ask them to split the check because they assume he's paying. It becomes very clear that people are making assumptions about you when they only feel the need to confirm that sort of thing with one subset of people.
Like, I'd be fine if restaurants just all defaulted to asking if you wanted to split the check, but they don't. And if you've made a selection for number of beds with your reservation and they only double-check if you're a same-sex couple, then yes, that means something. It means they looked and they saw two women and they saw only one bed and they thought, "Oh, no, that's not right, I need to check on that."
posted by Sequence at 8:56 AM on November 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
Like, I'd be fine if restaurants just all defaulted to asking if you wanted to split the check, but they don't. And if you've made a selection for number of beds with your reservation and they only double-check if you're a same-sex couple, then yes, that means something. It means they looked and they saw two women and they saw only one bed and they thought, "Oh, no, that's not right, I need to check on that."
posted by Sequence at 8:56 AM on November 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
The Planet Money podcast on Subaru advertising to lesbians is fantastic. It's not often I listen to a PM podcast and feel good at the end.
posted by photoslob at 8:57 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by photoslob at 8:57 AM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Per my prior hotel front desk experience with a big-name chain that is not Marriot, we were told to confirm the room type based on the reservation, something like "I have you in a deluxe room with a king bed" or "deluxe room with two queen beds", and sometimes guests would ask if there were any kings/queens/etc available instead and we'd do our best to move rooms if they were available. But if someone is getting judged based on what beds they want that's definitely not cool.
posted by paisley sheep at 9:04 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by paisley sheep at 9:04 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
“The last thing I will leave you with is that we need to support one another, because support from anywhere else is not guaranteed. Support queer women, women of color, trans women — give other deserving women your money, your eyeballs, your attention. Donate to their Kickstarters, visit their websites, advertise in their pages, buy their albums, go see their films in theaters, purchase their novels, frequent their businesses.”posted by ChuraChura at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
> I think people are getting their hackles raised and attributing entirely unconnected 'assumptions' to it.
Consider that it is one of a thousand little fucking annoying things that gets aimed at gay couples a lot. If it were the only thing ever then WHATever. But it's not, and it may or may not be unconnected because sometimes it definitely is that the asshole behind the counter is being an asshole. May of us have experienced this and it's exhausting.
> Per my prior hotel front desk experience with a big-name chain that is not Marriot, we were told to confirm the room type based on the reservation, something like "I have you in a deluxe room with a king bed" or "deluxe room with two queen beds",
When it's put this way, I wouldn't mind or even notice at all.
posted by rtha at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2016 [39 favorites]
Consider that it is one of a thousand little fucking annoying things that gets aimed at gay couples a lot. If it were the only thing ever then WHATever. But it's not, and it may or may not be unconnected because sometimes it definitely is that the asshole behind the counter is being an asshole. May of us have experienced this and it's exhausting.
> Per my prior hotel front desk experience with a big-name chain that is not Marriot, we were told to confirm the room type based on the reservation, something like "I have you in a deluxe room with a king bed" or "deluxe room with two queen beds",
When it's put this way, I wouldn't mind or even notice at all.
posted by rtha at 9:08 AM on November 3, 2016 [39 favorites]
Look, as part of an actual same-sex couple, I will confirm that "asking if we want two beds" is shorthand for a number of commonly-made assumptions, like repeatedly asking if my partner and I are sisters ("but you look sooo much alike! are you sure?"). These assumptions don't get made at explicitly queer-friendly businesses, and believe me, I can tell the difference.
posted by thetortoise at 9:12 AM on November 3, 2016 [53 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 9:12 AM on November 3, 2016 [53 favorites]
I guess the crux of the beds issue is that it might be stereotyping or it might just be policy to make sure they didn't fuck up your reservation, and most of the time there's no way to really know. Basically they should either always ask or never ask, but as an individual traveller there's no way to know if that's what they're doing so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2016
As far as I can figure, advertising to women in general is mostly:
- magical unguents to make you look forever juvenile and fertile
- vacuum cleaners, paper towels, glossy magazines, and meals-ready-to-eat, for when you've fulfilled your fertility
- cars, but only if you're standing next to a man
- things that make you poop
Nobody cares enough about women in general to understand how insulting their advertising is; apparently, women who aren't attached to a man's wallet are even less worth thinking about.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
- magical unguents to make you look forever juvenile and fertile
- vacuum cleaners, paper towels, glossy magazines, and meals-ready-to-eat, for when you've fulfilled your fertility
- cars, but only if you're standing next to a man
- things that make you poop
Nobody cares enough about women in general to understand how insulting their advertising is; apparently, women who aren't attached to a man's wallet are even less worth thinking about.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [33 favorites]
Though yeah, maybe the more important issue is that the beds thing is just an example of the subtle ways that gender stereotyping plays out, and we shouldn't litigate the (perhaps imperfect) example into the ground at the expense of ignoring a broader genuine issue that people are actually pretty good at detecting most of the time, when it's being directed at them.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:15 AM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
Wait, how is it discriminatory to *ask* if someone wants two beds? Just assuming two beds, that'd be rude as hell.
There's a difference between, say "I've got you down for a double room" in a neutral tone and just moving on, and say "I've got you down for a double, are you sure you don't want a twin?"
posted by Dysk at 9:21 AM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
There's a difference between, say "I've got you down for a double room" in a neutral tone and just moving on, and say "I've got you down for a double, are you sure you don't want a twin?"
posted by Dysk at 9:21 AM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
I'm asked to confirm the room/bed type is the same as I intended to book almost every single time I check into a hotel (at least once a week). Whether I am alone or whether I have an (also male) work colleague with me.
Business travel and personal travel are definitely different beasts.
posted by psoas at 9:36 AM on November 3, 2016
Business travel and personal travel are definitely different beasts.
posted by psoas at 9:36 AM on November 3, 2016
Mod note: Folks, gently, maybe we can let the bed thing rest (ha HA) at this point, it's just one example.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:37 AM on November 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:37 AM on November 3, 2016 [19 favorites]
it's just one example.
But it's not just one example.
Every week when we go grocery shopping or every time we go out to a restaurant, me and my husband get asked, "Is this all together?" (even when it's obvious from the separator that all of our groceries are together and that we're sharing a basket) or "Is this on the same bill?"
That's not a type of question that gets typically asked of straight couples. And it gets irritating as all fuck to hear it every single time. Yes, we're fucking together, and yes, it's all on the same goddamn bill!
posted by blucevalo at 9:40 AM on November 3, 2016 [25 favorites]
But it's not just one example.
Every week when we go grocery shopping or every time we go out to a restaurant, me and my husband get asked, "Is this all together?" (even when it's obvious from the separator that all of our groceries are together and that we're sharing a basket) or "Is this on the same bill?"
That's not a type of question that gets typically asked of straight couples. And it gets irritating as all fuck to hear it every single time. Yes, we're fucking together, and yes, it's all on the same goddamn bill!
posted by blucevalo at 9:40 AM on November 3, 2016 [25 favorites]
Advertisers only care about men, and women who are attached to men, news at 11.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bile and syntax at 9:48 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Clarification: if you're skeptical about this one example, that's fine but it's still just one of many examples, so let the skeptical nit-picking rest.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:51 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:51 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Seriously though - there are tons of lesbians and queer women who love clothes, shoes, and makeup; who have or want kids; who love traveling or camping, sports, outdoor activities, media... it's almost like we're real people.
And as stated upthread, using butch women to advertise would go over really well - everyone who likes butches would buy, butch women would see themselves and buy, and even androgynous dykes who like femmes (me) would be excited and buy.
The one thing I don't want is more alcohol advertising aimed at us. We already have high incidence of alcoholism due to the stress of our lives and that often the only place we can gather as a group is still in bars, and I would like to see this addressed more rather than get sold vodka in rainbow packaging. That probably makes me a humorless lesbian activist or something though.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2016 [39 favorites]
And as stated upthread, using butch women to advertise would go over really well - everyone who likes butches would buy, butch women would see themselves and buy, and even androgynous dykes who like femmes (me) would be excited and buy.
The one thing I don't want is more alcohol advertising aimed at us. We already have high incidence of alcoholism due to the stress of our lives and that often the only place we can gather as a group is still in bars, and I would like to see this addressed more rather than get sold vodka in rainbow packaging. That probably makes me a humorless lesbian activist or something though.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2016 [39 favorites]
As far as I can figure, advertising to women in general is mostly:
- magical unguents to make you look forever juvenile and fertile
- vacuum cleaners, paper towels, glossy magazines, and meals-ready-to-eat, for when you've fulfilled your fertility
- cars, but only if you're standing next to a man
- things that make you poop
This comment is good and you should feel good. Now I am going to have the onomatopoe-ish glory that is "unguent" stuck in my head all day. I am curious, though - which of your advertising categories can be expanded to hold all this hilarious salad?
posted by amnesia and magnets at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
- magical unguents to make you look forever juvenile and fertile
- vacuum cleaners, paper towels, glossy magazines, and meals-ready-to-eat, for when you've fulfilled your fertility
- cars, but only if you're standing next to a man
- things that make you poop
This comment is good and you should feel good. Now I am going to have the onomatopoe-ish glory that is "unguent" stuck in my head all day. I am curious, though - which of your advertising categories can be expanded to hold all this hilarious salad?
posted by amnesia and magnets at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I never see another bank, liquor company, or other large corporation in a Pride parade I'll be a happy queer.
I do think I've noticed just from going out to Queer events that there seem to be fewer Butch/Stone Butch lesbians around - working in a similar way to there seeming to be fewer effete gay men or daddies for that matter. I don't know if this is a product of increased societal acceptance in newer generations so people don't feel they have to present in quite the same way, my general lack of paying attention to the world, or some other issue entirely.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 10:16 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I do think I've noticed just from going out to Queer events that there seem to be fewer Butch/Stone Butch lesbians around - working in a similar way to there seeming to be fewer effete gay men or daddies for that matter. I don't know if this is a product of increased societal acceptance in newer generations so people don't feel they have to present in quite the same way, my general lack of paying attention to the world, or some other issue entirely.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 10:16 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
- vacuum cleaners, paper towels, glossy magazines, and meals-ready-to-eat, for when you've fulfilled your fertility
- things to make it less likely that the men and children in your life will destroy the house in their good-natured ignorance.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:34 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
- things to make it less likely that the men and children in your life will destroy the house in their good-natured ignorance.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:34 AM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
“I think the data didn’t fit their preconceptions about the demographic,” said Warn. “It came down to stereotypes: The gay stereotypes for gay men worked for them as consumers but worked against us for consumers. When you have the stereotypes and the data, the stereotypes won.”
This is what is so infuriating.
Riese at Autostraddle has been openly chronicling this on the site in her pleas for members and merch sales. She also hired many of the former AfterEllen writers.
posted by palegirl at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is what is so infuriating.
Riese at Autostraddle has been openly chronicling this on the site in her pleas for members and merch sales. She also hired many of the former AfterEllen writers.
posted by palegirl at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do think I've noticed just from going out to Queer events that there seem to be fewer Butch/Stone Butch lesbians around - working in a similar way to there seeming to be fewer effete gay men or daddies for that matter.
In my experience as Pride events have become mainstreamed (corp sponsors), they have become less friendly to gender- and other- nonconforming folks. In my town the self-described queer "weirdos" generally go somewhere else.
posted by AFABulous at 10:54 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
In my experience as Pride events have become mainstreamed (corp sponsors), they have become less friendly to gender- and other- nonconforming folks. In my town the self-described queer "weirdos" generally go somewhere else.
posted by AFABulous at 10:54 AM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I do think I've noticed just from going out to Queer events that there seem to be fewer Butch/Stone Butch lesbians around
This has been a contentious issue in lesbian/queer communities going back at least to the '90s, when the (potential) trend of butches identifying as transmasculine was much discussed. But I think one part of it is that the mainstream look these days for people of all genders is very smooth, glossy, made-up, hairless, and polished-- think contouring and everything else that makes people look "naturally" airbrushed-- so you don't see as much of the traditional butch aesthetic but a lot more of the dapper style, or even that Bieber look that was in for a time. More Prius, less diesel.
To get back to the article: lesbians and queer women are clearly missing out on advertising dollars, and it's well-documented here (the Autostraddle audience certainly buys stuff, why wouldn't you want to advertise there??), but maybe us hairy Birkenstocked folks have been shut out because there's also some truth in the stereotype. Some of us are skeptical of companies that aren't ethical but want easy queer dollars. Some of us have criticized industries that have preyed on women's insecurities and inequalities for years. Some of us are actively anti-capitalist. We're a hard market. And I'm pretty proud of that.
posted by thetortoise at 10:59 AM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
This has been a contentious issue in lesbian/queer communities going back at least to the '90s, when the (potential) trend of butches identifying as transmasculine was much discussed. But I think one part of it is that the mainstream look these days for people of all genders is very smooth, glossy, made-up, hairless, and polished-- think contouring and everything else that makes people look "naturally" airbrushed-- so you don't see as much of the traditional butch aesthetic but a lot more of the dapper style, or even that Bieber look that was in for a time. More Prius, less diesel.
To get back to the article: lesbians and queer women are clearly missing out on advertising dollars, and it's well-documented here (the Autostraddle audience certainly buys stuff, why wouldn't you want to advertise there??), but maybe us hairy Birkenstocked folks have been shut out because there's also some truth in the stereotype. Some of us are skeptical of companies that aren't ethical but want easy queer dollars. Some of us have criticized industries that have preyed on women's insecurities and inequalities for years. Some of us are actively anti-capitalist. We're a hard market. And I'm pretty proud of that.
posted by thetortoise at 10:59 AM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
You have to be careful checking in these days. Even two brothers can be mistaken for ANTIQUERS.
posted by Ber at 11:10 AM on November 3, 2016
posted by Ber at 11:10 AM on November 3, 2016
You know what would probably help advertisers advertise to the lesbian and/or queer women demographic? Hiring a few.
Any lesbian who has ever seen lesbian porn made for men has her bullshit meter on high all the time when she sees lesbians in media. We can tell when a company isn't making a good-faith effort. If I taste patriarchy, I don't eat the cookie.
Hiring a few lesbians would probably help with that problem.
posted by possibilityleft at 11:42 AM on November 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
Any lesbian who has ever seen lesbian porn made for men has her bullshit meter on high all the time when she sees lesbians in media. We can tell when a company isn't making a good-faith effort. If I taste patriarchy, I don't eat the cookie.
Hiring a few lesbians would probably help with that problem.
posted by possibilityleft at 11:42 AM on November 3, 2016 [18 favorites]
“At the time, there were so few lesbian and bisexual women on TV that you could literally count the number,” Warn told BuzzFeed News.
I think that's a really curious thing to hear from someone who founded a site to track representation of lesbians on television. It seems to play into the assumption that if someone isn't explicitly identified as lesbian or bisexual, the default conclusion is that they are straight. In 2002, there were plenty of women on television whose sexuality was undetermined, so there is no way that you could literally count the number of lesbian and bisexual women on TV.
Absolut vodka started marketing to gay customers in the early ’80s, long before anyone else dared to.
I understand the point of the article is that the failure of marketers to perceive lesbians as attractive targets for advertisers can have an adverse affect on media developed for them. But I'd like to push back against the notion that being subjected to manipulative propaganda developed by advertising agencies is necessarily beneficial. Around the time that Absolut was launching that gay-specific advertising, there were studies indicating significantly higher levels of alcohol dependence and abuse within the LGBT community.
posted by layceepee at 11:53 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think that's a really curious thing to hear from someone who founded a site to track representation of lesbians on television. It seems to play into the assumption that if someone isn't explicitly identified as lesbian or bisexual, the default conclusion is that they are straight. In 2002, there were plenty of women on television whose sexuality was undetermined, so there is no way that you could literally count the number of lesbian and bisexual women on TV.
Absolut vodka started marketing to gay customers in the early ’80s, long before anyone else dared to.
I understand the point of the article is that the failure of marketers to perceive lesbians as attractive targets for advertisers can have an adverse affect on media developed for them. But I'd like to push back against the notion that being subjected to manipulative propaganda developed by advertising agencies is necessarily beneficial. Around the time that Absolut was launching that gay-specific advertising, there were studies indicating significantly higher levels of alcohol dependence and abuse within the LGBT community.
posted by layceepee at 11:53 AM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
And as stated upthread, using butch women to advertise would go over really well - everyone who likes butches would buy, butch women would see themselves and buy, and even androgynous dykes who like femmes (me) would be excited and buy.
Lo these many years ago now, J Crew ran an online-only promotion featuring their thinnest and most fashionable professional design staff. This is not typically a thing which resonates with me. However, one of them was a butch woman in (expensive) loafers and other masculine accoutrements. Like, an actual butch woman of the sort one might see in a fashionable, affluent, queer-friendly area - again, I'm more familiar with the artsy/dissident/broke variety of butch women (and queers generally) but it was still pretty much the first time I'd seen such kind of person in a mainstream ad. (And pretty much the only time, still.)
So anyway, J Crew got some of my money, and an eBay seller who had a gently used pair of the expensive loafers also got some of my money.
I am as skeptical of capitalism as the next person, but that was some powerful advertising in that it got me to unchain a few dollars for JCrew, which is not my general modus operandi. It really made me realize the power of representation - I had gotten so used to seeing no one who was even sort of like me ever that it never even occurred to me that representation was a big deal; I'd just gotten used to thinking of people who looked like me as too freakish, abnormal and lacking in mass-appeal even to be admitted to exist.
I do not identify as a woman at all, but because I am read about 2/3 of the time as a butch woman and have spent most of my adult life being read most of the time as a butch woman, I have a certain fondness for? identification with? this category.
posted by Frowner at 11:59 AM on November 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
Lo these many years ago now, J Crew ran an online-only promotion featuring their thinnest and most fashionable professional design staff. This is not typically a thing which resonates with me. However, one of them was a butch woman in (expensive) loafers and other masculine accoutrements. Like, an actual butch woman of the sort one might see in a fashionable, affluent, queer-friendly area - again, I'm more familiar with the artsy/dissident/broke variety of butch women (and queers generally) but it was still pretty much the first time I'd seen such kind of person in a mainstream ad. (And pretty much the only time, still.)
So anyway, J Crew got some of my money, and an eBay seller who had a gently used pair of the expensive loafers also got some of my money.
I am as skeptical of capitalism as the next person, but that was some powerful advertising in that it got me to unchain a few dollars for JCrew, which is not my general modus operandi. It really made me realize the power of representation - I had gotten so used to seeing no one who was even sort of like me ever that it never even occurred to me that representation was a big deal; I'd just gotten used to thinking of people who looked like me as too freakish, abnormal and lacking in mass-appeal even to be admitted to exist.
I do not identify as a woman at all, but because I am read about 2/3 of the time as a butch woman and have spent most of my adult life being read most of the time as a butch woman, I have a certain fondness for? identification with? this category.
posted by Frowner at 11:59 AM on November 3, 2016 [16 favorites]
I'm always on the lookout to support businesses like these as well, but I'll be damned if I'll throw any $$ Marriott's way after its disgusting defense tactics in that sexual assault case.
posted by furtive_jackanapes at 12:19 PM on November 3, 2016
posted by furtive_jackanapes at 12:19 PM on November 3, 2016
(That probably wasn't the best link to use. Yes, it was an independently owned franchisee, but the assault was in 2006 and corporate was aware of the planned defense yet didn't do a thing about it until bad publicity made them act in 2009.)
posted by furtive_jackanapes at 12:30 PM on November 3, 2016
posted by furtive_jackanapes at 12:30 PM on November 3, 2016
It seems to play into the assumption that if someone isn't explicitly identified as lesbian or bisexual, the default conclusion is that they are straight. In 2002, there were plenty of women on television whose sexuality was undetermined, so there is no way that you could literally count the number of lesbian and bisexual women on TV.
I'm not sure if this is the argument that you meant to make, but this is frequently the defense used to tell people to shut up when they ask for explicit representation. Not just "but knowbody kneeeeeew if Wonder Woman was queer or not, so be grateful and go away." Heteronormativity is still the majority view, we are still in the period of asking for explicit representation, preferably without getting killed off for it.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:45 PM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
I'm not sure if this is the argument that you meant to make, but this is frequently the defense used to tell people to shut up when they ask for explicit representation. Not just "but knowbody kneeeeeew if Wonder Woman was queer or not, so be grateful and go away." Heteronormativity is still the majority view, we are still in the period of asking for explicit representation, preferably without getting killed off for it.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:45 PM on November 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
Yes, even if you show characters holding hands and going into the great beyond together a large portion of the audience will still claim they're just friends. I think that invisibility and plausible deniability is a feature rather than a bug of mass media.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:54 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:54 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I had no idea AfterEllen was down for the count. That's sad - they used to be one of the best sources of good fun recapping for lady-centered shows. (I'm looking at you, Lost Girl)
posted by corb at 3:00 PM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 3:00 PM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nobody cares enough about women in general to understand how insulting their advertising is; apparently, women who aren't attached to a man's wallet are even less worth thinking about.
I've been watching a lot of TV for shut-ins lately, and there's this one ad with a fiftyish woman in the foreground and her husband drinking coffee at the kitchen table in the background. She says, in a confused voice, "Do I even need life insurance?" In the background, the husband looks into the camera and nods vigorously. Slays me every time.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:23 PM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been watching a lot of TV for shut-ins lately, and there's this one ad with a fiftyish woman in the foreground and her husband drinking coffee at the kitchen table in the background. She says, in a confused voice, "Do I even need life insurance?" In the background, the husband looks into the camera and nods vigorously. Slays me every time.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:23 PM on November 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
> She says, in a confused voice, "Do I even need life insurance?" In the background, the husband looks into the camera and nods vigorously
Wait, what, he's going to kill her?
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:39 PM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Wait, what, he's going to kill her?
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:39 PM on November 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Wait, what, he's going to kill her?
That's certainly the impression I get, but maybe I'm just a sicko.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:07 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
That's certainly the impression I get, but maybe I'm just a sicko.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:07 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Queer person here who has dealt with the hotel issue (reserving a one bed room for two adults and then being repeatedly asked if I really really want just one bed). The issue is that you end up awkwardly outing yourself to the front desk person and you don't know how they'll react. Most people are fine, occasionally people make it awkward, some dudes make it creepy.
But every single time this happens I get anxious that I might be denied service because I'm queer.
posted by forkisbetter at 5:09 PM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
But every single time this happens I get anxious that I might be denied service because I'm queer.
posted by forkisbetter at 5:09 PM on November 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I never see another bank, liquor company, or other large corporation in a Pride parade I'll be a happy queer.
Amen. I would also like to not see churches, and not have straight people come up to me and demand ally cookies.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:20 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Amen. I would also like to not see churches, and not have straight people come up to me and demand ally cookies.
posted by bile and syntax at 6:20 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would also like - while we're on the topic - fewer straight people in the Pride parade. I know a lot of straight people who march in it and it's....weird. They're not there because they're marching with friends, they're there because Big Local Employer sends a contingent of employees to march.
posted by Frowner at 6:24 PM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:24 PM on November 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I know they mean well, and I don't loathe it or anything, but it's not their Parade, you know.
posted by Frowner at 6:25 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:25 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Or just, like, allies to the back? Like yes come march and show support, but YOU DO NOT GO FIRST
posted by (Over) Thinking at 6:42 PM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by (Over) Thinking at 6:42 PM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can understand the emotional reaction of "Fewer (assumed straight) folk from Big Local Employer and Local Church in the Pride Parade please", and I was nodding along with you for a second until I thought about it in terms of my actual life and not in the abstract.
The minister of my Local Church is a woman who is partnered with a woman, as was her predecessor who testified before Parliament as a representative of her denomination in the fight to legalize gay marriage in Canada. When my Local Church marches in Pride, sure not everyone who marches with them is LGBTQ+, but they're not there as sightseers or opportunists; they have a long history with the community.
My Big Local Employer union marches in Pride too. And honestly, I don't know the orientation of (all) the folks who show up. But I know I can't assume the people who come across as straight are necessarily straight, because I'm sure plenty of people at work assume I'm straight when I'm not.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 8:04 PM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
The minister of my Local Church is a woman who is partnered with a woman, as was her predecessor who testified before Parliament as a representative of her denomination in the fight to legalize gay marriage in Canada. When my Local Church marches in Pride, sure not everyone who marches with them is LGBTQ+, but they're not there as sightseers or opportunists; they have a long history with the community.
My Big Local Employer union marches in Pride too. And honestly, I don't know the orientation of (all) the folks who show up. But I know I can't assume the people who come across as straight are necessarily straight, because I'm sure plenty of people at work assume I'm straight when I'm not.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 8:04 PM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
See, my point is that I know a bunch of people casually who march in majority-straight big-employer delegations. The first time someone mentioned to me "oh, so and so will be marching in the Pride parade", I was like "oh, so and so must be bisexual or pansexual or something, cool" and said as much, and it was all "nope, so and so is 100% straight, but Big Employer always shows the flag". And I felt really weird about that. And then I've had that same interaction a bunch of times, until it hit me that various big local employers just recruit rando staff to march. It's not that I'm assuming people are straight - it's that I assumed they were queer people who were in heterosexual relationships/dated heterosexually and that they were attending Pride as queer participants - until I was told that they were straight.
It's just...weird, you know? Like if there were a femme bloc in the parade and I decided to march in it despite not being even remotely femme. Or like I decided to jump in with the Queer POC bloc even though I'm white, just because. If it's not your parade/bloc, you don't center yourself.
If someone has personal reasons to be in the parade, or is a guest, sure, fine; but it's weird when straight people are just like "my employer wants people to represent the company at Pride, guess I'll go". Straight people are not the ones that straight people pester at Pride - I had a pretty shitty "you are like an animal in a zoo" experience at Pride a couple of years ago where some people wanted to take my photo because people who get read as butch women are giant abnormal freaks, and I haven't gone to Pride since because it made me feel shitty. And that's basically the direct consequence of straight people thinking that Pride is just some fun entertainment that they can participate in any way they damn well please. Straight people should not center themselves at Pride.
posted by Frowner at 8:32 PM on November 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's just...weird, you know? Like if there were a femme bloc in the parade and I decided to march in it despite not being even remotely femme. Or like I decided to jump in with the Queer POC bloc even though I'm white, just because. If it's not your parade/bloc, you don't center yourself.
If someone has personal reasons to be in the parade, or is a guest, sure, fine; but it's weird when straight people are just like "my employer wants people to represent the company at Pride, guess I'll go". Straight people are not the ones that straight people pester at Pride - I had a pretty shitty "you are like an animal in a zoo" experience at Pride a couple of years ago where some people wanted to take my photo because people who get read as butch women are giant abnormal freaks, and I haven't gone to Pride since because it made me feel shitty. And that's basically the direct consequence of straight people thinking that Pride is just some fun entertainment that they can participate in any way they damn well please. Straight people should not center themselves at Pride.
posted by Frowner at 8:32 PM on November 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
And I think this has to do with the fact that Pride is about pride, so to speak - it's not just "everybody likes gay people"; it's "gay people are pushed to be silent so as not to make others uncomfortable, so today we'll come together to be visible to ourselves and the world in our variety". To me, the people who ought to be putting themselves out there to be visible at Pride ought either to be GLBTQ people themselves or to have personal connections to GLBTQ people, and ought not to be there to give the vague message that gay is okay and gays make great employees. When there's a lot of random straight people in the pride parade, they're making gay people less visible to ourselves and the world as gay people, because all of the sudden the parade is just a parade of people who think gay is okay.
The point isn't for us to look suspiciously at someone who doesn't look "gay enough" or whatever and try to judge who "belongs"; the point is the standard that self-identified straight people should use for participating in an event that isn't about them.
posted by Frowner at 8:48 PM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
The point isn't for us to look suspiciously at someone who doesn't look "gay enough" or whatever and try to judge who "belongs"; the point is the standard that self-identified straight people should use for participating in an event that isn't about them.
posted by Frowner at 8:48 PM on November 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
In my mind, the big problem it all comes back to is corporate entities at Pride, not necessarily straight people at Pride. (My super straight mom joined, and marched with, my hometown's PFLAG chapter this year, and it pretty much made my summer!)
... and that then comes back to the advertising thing. I looooove seeing lesbians in ads, don't get me wrong, but I'm also skeptical of advertising in general, and of ads playing the queer card for cash in particular. Like thetortoise said, I guess we're a hard market, and that's maybe a good thing. (We being, really, lesbians and also many other queer and trans folks.)
posted by snorkmaiden at 9:10 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
... and that then comes back to the advertising thing. I looooove seeing lesbians in ads, don't get me wrong, but I'm also skeptical of advertising in general, and of ads playing the queer card for cash in particular. Like thetortoise said, I guess we're a hard market, and that's maybe a good thing. (We being, really, lesbians and also many other queer and trans folks.)
posted by snorkmaiden at 9:10 PM on November 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I don't have a problem with straight people marching with friends or if they are part of a group that supports LGBTQ rights (e.g. PFLAG) or even as a sincere show of support from allies who feel passionate about it. But marching just because your employer has a float seems weird af and I didn't realize that was so much of a thing! Here I was naively assuming that the Salesforce float or whatever was mostly staffed by LGBTQ employees...
It also occurs to me that this is probably even more of a problem for queer female visibility, because allies are more likely to be female in the US, as well as in every other country where there's a gender gap in support for LGBTQ rights (source).
posted by en forme de poire at 9:10 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
It also occurs to me that this is probably even more of a problem for queer female visibility, because allies are more likely to be female in the US, as well as in every other country where there's a gender gap in support for LGBTQ rights (source).
posted by en forme de poire at 9:10 PM on November 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it actually ties back into the advertising thing! Companies have realized they can get brand loyalty if they show up at Pride. But they either don't have enough LGBT people or they don't have enough LGBT people who feel like outing themselves to their employer. But they still want those sweet sweet dollars. So what do they do? Recruit randoms and assume nobody is checking.
posted by corb at 10:01 PM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:01 PM on November 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know a bunch of straight people who come to pride to "show support" and I wish they would show support in pretty much any other way at any other time, or go to a straight space during pride and have the awkward discussions with other straight people that need to happen. For me it's still just so powerful for us to gather in public as a group, and having a bunch of straight people show up creates the expectation in us that we have to make them comfortable at the one event in the year where we shouldn't have to do that.
There's also an ugly history of straight people treating pride like it's sexual liberation party time, straight guys coming to stare at women who might kiss each other, and as Frowner mentioned, straight people centering themselves. For me I don't think straight people can come and NOT center themselves since they're so used to being centered. People at pride with signs saying they're straight are somewhere between eyerolling and creepy. Straight people keep coming up to be like "I'm all supportive, give me a cookie!" piss me off, and doubly so when I tell them that I'm not giving them a cookie, and the dyke march is for, you know, dykes.
This is probably why no one wants to advertise to me because capitalism has no interest in ending the torrent of bullshit women have to put up with, and especially women who don't center our lives on men, but it doesn't actually let me opt out of capitalism and I do need to buy various things. If only someone wanted to sell me a device that would repel straight people at queer events...
posted by bile and syntax at 3:39 AM on November 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
There's also an ugly history of straight people treating pride like it's sexual liberation party time, straight guys coming to stare at women who might kiss each other, and as Frowner mentioned, straight people centering themselves. For me I don't think straight people can come and NOT center themselves since they're so used to being centered. People at pride with signs saying they're straight are somewhere between eyerolling and creepy. Straight people keep coming up to be like "I'm all supportive, give me a cookie!" piss me off, and doubly so when I tell them that I'm not giving them a cookie, and the dyke march is for, you know, dykes.
This is probably why no one wants to advertise to me because capitalism has no interest in ending the torrent of bullshit women have to put up with, and especially women who don't center our lives on men, but it doesn't actually let me opt out of capitalism and I do need to buy various things. If only someone wanted to sell me a device that would repel straight people at queer events...
posted by bile and syntax at 3:39 AM on November 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
Companies have realized they can get brand loyalty if they show up at Pride. But they either don't have enough LGBT people or they don't have enough LGBT people who feel like outing themselves to their employer. But they still want those sweet sweet dollars. So what do they do? Recruit randoms and assume nobody is checking.
This is the crux of the problem - companies wanting a presence at Pride. If a bunch of queer people want to attend and ask their employer if they can have the support of the company in so doing (whether material or just symbolic, e.g marching in uniform or under a banner or whatever) then great, fine, go ahead. If it's the company management wanting a presence for the company, and are then seeking out employees to send to achieve that? Fuck that, they are not welcome.
posted by Dysk at 4:15 AM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is the crux of the problem - companies wanting a presence at Pride. If a bunch of queer people want to attend and ask their employer if they can have the support of the company in so doing (whether material or just symbolic, e.g marching in uniform or under a banner or whatever) then great, fine, go ahead. If it's the company management wanting a presence for the company, and are then seeking out employees to send to achieve that? Fuck that, they are not welcome.
posted by Dysk at 4:15 AM on November 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
My company always has a presence in Pride here in Seattle.
I was asked if I was going to show up to march with the company, and I said, "no." I was asked - by a gay co-worker - why not, and I said:
"Well, first, my arthritic knee means I'd be in pain after the first half-mile and then have to drop out. But the other, just as important reason? I'm straight and Pride is not about me, so I don't think I should be marching. If we had a *Company* Allies separate section? I'd be there. I dunno. Maybe it's being from NYC and all and seeing the Pride parade there."
He got me - it's not about me, so I'm not going to soak up undeserved praise for it.
posted by mephron at 8:57 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was asked if I was going to show up to march with the company, and I said, "no." I was asked - by a gay co-worker - why not, and I said:
"Well, first, my arthritic knee means I'd be in pain after the first half-mile and then have to drop out. But the other, just as important reason? I'm straight and Pride is not about me, so I don't think I should be marching. If we had a *Company* Allies separate section? I'd be there. I dunno. Maybe it's being from NYC and all and seeing the Pride parade there."
He got me - it's not about me, so I'm not going to soak up undeserved praise for it.
posted by mephron at 8:57 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Well, first, my arthritic knee means I'd be in pain after the first half-mile and then have to drop out. But the other, just as important reason? I'm straight and Pride is not about me, so I don't think I should be marching. If we had a *Company* Allies separate section? I'd be there. I dunno. Maybe it's being from NYC and all and seeing the Pride parade there."
I'm in NYC, NYC's pride is super corporate and mainstream politicians attend it, which is fine. Southern Decadence is the first Pride-type celebration I've ever attended that felt like an actual celebration of queerness rather than weird anemic re-enactment of something that used to have meaning and there were straight folks there hanging out next to us trying to catch beads from the lube company along with us and they didn't feel gawky or invasive, they were just there because it's New Orleans and people just go to parades because it's a parade. In conclusion, 5 Birkenstocks out of 5 Southern Decadence.
posted by edbles at 9:48 AM on November 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm in NYC, NYC's pride is super corporate and mainstream politicians attend it, which is fine. Southern Decadence is the first Pride-type celebration I've ever attended that felt like an actual celebration of queerness rather than weird anemic re-enactment of something that used to have meaning and there were straight folks there hanging out next to us trying to catch beads from the lube company along with us and they didn't feel gawky or invasive, they were just there because it's New Orleans and people just go to parades because it's a parade. In conclusion, 5 Birkenstocks out of 5 Southern Decadence.
posted by edbles at 9:48 AM on November 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Secretsparrow, as a teen I was kicked out of a church youth group for being gay. They march at pride every year, because they are soooooo queer-positive. I have a lot of friends whose experience of church is all about anti-LGBT abuse. I find most religion intensely cisheteropatriarchal and generally a conservative cultural force. It's not necessarily something I want writ in stone and it's great that you've had a different experience, but it's not something I'll ever like at pride.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:36 AM on November 4, 2016
posted by bile and syntax at 10:36 AM on November 4, 2016
If only someone wanted to sell me a device that would repel straight people at queer events...
Yessss. Some sort of siren that only cishets can hear, like they make for teenagers. I was at a (nominally, historically gay) dance club a week ago and most of the couples on the dance floor were male/female!! Maybe stop and think "am I going to kill the vibe here" before you go someplace. The only reason I go is because it's the only place that has a dance floor minus the dudebros. Lots of gay guys have stopped going altogether, which creates more space for cishets and it becomes a downward spiral. Pride is the same way, it's gotten so tame and boring and "respectable" that I probably won't go next year.
posted by AFABulous at 10:45 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yessss. Some sort of siren that only cishets can hear, like they make for teenagers. I was at a (nominally, historically gay) dance club a week ago and most of the couples on the dance floor were male/female!! Maybe stop and think "am I going to kill the vibe here" before you go someplace. The only reason I go is because it's the only place that has a dance floor minus the dudebros. Lots of gay guys have stopped going altogether, which creates more space for cishets and it becomes a downward spiral. Pride is the same way, it's gotten so tame and boring and "respectable" that I probably won't go next year.
posted by AFABulous at 10:45 AM on November 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think that's a really curious thing to hear from someone who founded a site to track representation of lesbians on television. It seems to play into the assumption that if someone isn't explicitly identified as lesbian or bisexual, the default conclusion is that they are straight. In 2002, there were plenty of women on television whose sexuality was undetermined, so there is no way that you could literally count the number of lesbian and bisexual women on TV.
Late to the party, but.... this is total fucking bullshit. Sexuality is "undetermined?" When it felt to me, looking for women to maybe kind of sort of identify with, that you didn't get female characters on screen unless they were supposed to be some dude's love interest? Come on.
I promise, any female character who sort of kind of maybe kissed another woman/dated one for an afternoon/looked kind of butch/was quiet and awkward when sexuality came up and just avoided the whole topic throughout a show/whatever would have gotten lumped under "potentially queer! LIKE ME, LIKE ME." The standards are low there, and the reason that they're low is that female characters gotta have a reason to be on stage--bit characters or minor characters don't get to just be female, being female is a marked state. And the most common reason for a TV writer to think "oh I should add a character in that box" appears to be "so this other character has someone to date." It gets old.
posted by sciatrix at 1:57 PM on November 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
Late to the party, but.... this is total fucking bullshit. Sexuality is "undetermined?" When it felt to me, looking for women to maybe kind of sort of identify with, that you didn't get female characters on screen unless they were supposed to be some dude's love interest? Come on.
I promise, any female character who sort of kind of maybe kissed another woman/dated one for an afternoon/looked kind of butch/was quiet and awkward when sexuality came up and just avoided the whole topic throughout a show/whatever would have gotten lumped under "potentially queer! LIKE ME, LIKE ME." The standards are low there, and the reason that they're low is that female characters gotta have a reason to be on stage--bit characters or minor characters don't get to just be female, being female is a marked state. And the most common reason for a TV writer to think "oh I should add a character in that box" appears to be "so this other character has someone to date." It gets old.
posted by sciatrix at 1:57 PM on November 4, 2016 [11 favorites]
In 2002, there were plenty of women on television whose sexuality was undetermined, so there is no way that you could literally count the number of lesbian and bisexual women on TV.
Undetermined is in no way the same as actively identified.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:58 PM on November 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Undetermined is in no way the same as actively identified.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:58 PM on November 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm glad you liked Southern Decadence, edbles! I had always heard (as a New Orleans resident but not a gay person, so kinda on the fringes) that it was mostly a gay male event that didn't try to be very inclusive of gay women. I'm glad to hear that you liked it; maybe my read was wrong. It always seemed like a rockin' good time, one of the most authentic celebrations in the New Orleans annual calendar.
Also, fun fact, the Decadence parade was the first official parade in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. The city was still mostly flooded at the time, but a few dozen members joined up in costume and marched through the French Quarter anyway. They were stopped by a police officer, but one member was able to produce the parade permit for him and they were allowed to proceed.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:54 PM on November 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, fun fact, the Decadence parade was the first official parade in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. The city was still mostly flooded at the time, but a few dozen members joined up in costume and marched through the French Quarter anyway. They were stopped by a police officer, but one member was able to produce the parade permit for him and they were allowed to proceed.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:54 PM on November 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm glad you liked Southern Decadence, edbles! I had always heard (as a New Orleans resident but not a gay person, so kinda on the fringes) that it was mostly a gay male event that didn't try to be very inclusive of gay women.
I think that's maybe more about the events the week of maybe? There was a ton of stuff for the boys during the lead up and like one burlesque thing for everyone(at One Eyed Jack's Ben DeLaCreme hosted and it was Excellent) and a few parties for specifically for wlw folks. Also maybe that's divide is more of an obvious thing if you're a local, as a tourist it was both the first parade in my life and first Pride parade where I have been like "Oh this is why people do this."
posted by edbles at 10:26 AM on November 8, 2016
I think that's maybe more about the events the week of maybe? There was a ton of stuff for the boys during the lead up and like one burlesque thing for everyone(at One Eyed Jack's Ben DeLaCreme hosted and it was Excellent) and a few parties for specifically for wlw folks. Also maybe that's divide is more of an obvious thing if you're a local, as a tourist it was both the first parade in my life and first Pride parade where I have been like "Oh this is why people do this."
posted by edbles at 10:26 AM on November 8, 2016
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Setting aside how the femmes of the world would like to have a word with the promoters of this stereotype: Not very marketable to whom? I am passionately interested in buying anything a hairy, Birkenstock-clad lesbian would like to peddle. Like anything. Pet rock? Collection of orphaned socks from a public laundromat? Box of garbage? SOLD.
You know how the advertising industry employ the (often headless) bodies of stereotypically "feminine" women as props for selling almost everything, and use "sex sells" (a nasty turn of phrase implying female bodies are equivalent to sex itself) as shorthand for this practice? Put a braless butch in those same adverts and take my goddamn money.
On an aside, I'm probably dating myself, but I get twitchy when I see "queer women" and "lesbians" used interchangeably, as they are throughout this article (23 of the former, 19 of the latter). They can comprise intersecting circles of a Venn diagram, but they shouldn't be assumed to be one and the same, for marketing purposes or otherwise.
RIP Dana I love you and Subaru forever
posted by amnesia and magnets at 8:25 AM on November 3, 2016 [45 favorites]