They're shaping me into something gaudy and lethal.
September 20, 2017 5:43 PM Subscribe
Following a tease on Instagram last night, it's been confirmed that HBO placed a pilot order for a Watchmen series. Somewhat controversial screenwriter Damon Lindelof heads the writing room.
Watchmen was long thought to be unfilmable, but that didn't stop commercial director Zack Snyder from giving it a shot in 2009.
It's shaping up to be a busy year for the Watchmen; as Dr. Manhattan said, "Nothing ever ends."
Watchmen was long thought to be unfilmable, but that didn't stop commercial director Zack Snyder from giving it a shot in 2009.
It's shaping up to be a busy year for the Watchmen; as Dr. Manhattan said, "Nothing ever ends."
Well, that had mild potential for the quarter-second before Lindelof's name was attached to it.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:46 PM on September 20, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:46 PM on September 20, 2017 [18 favorites]
Prometheus was a mess, but I've heard nothing but praise for The Leftovers. There are no sure things, but so far I'm definitely optimistic for this adaptation!
posted by Green Winnebago at 5:49 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Green Winnebago at 5:49 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
At the start of the year, Geoff Johns teased his return to comics writing with a simple teaser image: The glowering brow of Watchmen’s Dr. Manhattan.
Oh, Geoff Johns on another Watchmen project. Way to burn both ends of the candle with a massive flamethrower of shit!
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:50 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh, Geoff Johns on another Watchmen project. Way to burn both ends of the candle with a massive flamethrower of shit!
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:50 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Nope.
posted by Artw at 5:54 PM on September 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:54 PM on September 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
Somewhat controversial screenwriter Damon Lindelof heads the writing room.
FROM HELL'S HEART I STAB AT THEE
posted by poffin boffin at 5:59 PM on September 20, 2017 [25 favorites]
FROM HELL'S HEART I STAB AT THEE
posted by poffin boffin at 5:59 PM on September 20, 2017 [25 favorites]
I have a lot of issues with the Watchmen movie that Snyder did (as I know most people here do too as well), but out of everything wrong with it, it's the stark blue-and-yellow/orange Hollywood palette that bothers me the most. I wish David Fincher had done Watchmen, instead.
posted by gucci mane at 6:00 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by gucci mane at 6:00 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Or like, Gaspar Noe or some shit. Someone weird but willing to switch up the color palette a bit. Although I know Fincher likes his browns.
posted by gucci mane at 6:01 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by gucci mane at 6:01 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
My personal theory is that someone high up in the media Illuminati is trying to push Alan Moore just as far as they can to determine if he does, in fact, know brain exploding death chants.
posted by selfnoise at 6:02 PM on September 20, 2017 [22 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 6:02 PM on September 20, 2017 [22 favorites]
The Saturday Morning Watchmen cartoon was pretty good. I'd watch a whole season of it.
posted by Phssthpok at 6:02 PM on September 20, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by Phssthpok at 6:02 PM on September 20, 2017 [16 favorites]
I've always said Watchmen ought to be a series on TV. One needs time for all the nooks and crannies.
posted by vrakatar at 6:04 PM on September 20, 2017
posted by vrakatar at 6:04 PM on September 20, 2017
This one better have a giant psychic squid.
posted by octothorpe at 6:06 PM on September 20, 2017 [17 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:06 PM on September 20, 2017 [17 favorites]
MYSTERY SQUID.
posted by Artw at 6:06 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:06 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
At least this time he fucking well knows the ending.
posted by mwhybark at 6:09 PM on September 20, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 6:09 PM on September 20, 2017 [10 favorites]
If a polar bear or Jorge Garcia appears, abandon all hope. A smoke monster or Michael Emerson, only abandon half your hope.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:10 PM on September 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:10 PM on September 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
First Zack Snyder, now Damon Lindelof. What did Alan Moore ever do to deserve this?Gosh, that's gonna be at least several other threads..
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:11 PM on September 20, 2017 [8 favorites]
(although, hurm, wurnt the mistery squid people working, hurm, on an uncharted, hurm, island)
posted by mwhybark at 6:11 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 6:11 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
DOM MONAGHAN 4 RORSHACH
posted by mwhybark at 6:13 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 6:13 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
John Waters's Watchmen.
I'd get HBO for that.
posted by delfin at 6:14 PM on September 20, 2017 [21 favorites]
I'd get HBO for that.
posted by delfin at 6:14 PM on September 20, 2017 [21 favorites]
At least this time he fucking well knows the ending.
I thought nothing ever ends.
posted by dilaudid at 6:14 PM on September 20, 2017
I thought nothing ever ends.
posted by dilaudid at 6:14 PM on September 20, 2017
>Somewhat controversial screenwriter Damon Lindelof heads the writing room.
FROM HELL'S HEART I STAB AT THEE
[Lindelof, reading these comments]
"They're right, I SHOULD do From Hell!"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:15 PM on September 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
FROM HELL'S HEART I STAB AT THEE
[Lindelof, reading these comments]
"They're right, I SHOULD do From Hell!"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:15 PM on September 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
In a better world we would have gotten a Terry Gilliam Watchmen.
posted by octothorpe at 6:17 PM on September 20, 2017 [28 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:17 PM on September 20, 2017 [28 favorites]
I wonder if that means this time we get "Tales of the Black Freighter," because I would pretty much dig that completely without the vaping sidewalk kid nested story angle.
posted by mwhybark at 6:17 PM on September 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 6:17 PM on September 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
In the final episode it will be revealed that the superheroes are just wealthy assholes and putzes cosplaying in a fake gritty 80's New York populated by realistic robot hosts. The Westworld/Watchworld cinematic universe is launched, and Dr. Manhattan grows up to be Ed Harris.
posted by ejs at 6:26 PM on September 20, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by ejs at 6:26 PM on September 20, 2017 [10 favorites]
"They're right, I SHOULD do From Hell!"
Fuck it, Big Numbers.
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on September 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
Fuck it, Big Numbers.
posted by Artw at 6:34 PM on September 20, 2017 [5 favorites]
Lost was garbage. Leftovers was fantastic. Lindelof has come a ways since his earlier days, and literally anything could be better than Snyder's simultaneously fetishized and clueless take.
posted by FatherDagon at 6:36 PM on September 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by FatherDagon at 6:36 PM on September 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
I guess at least partial forgiveness for Prometheus is possible given how Covenant ended up without him.
posted by Artw at 6:40 PM on September 20, 2017
posted by Artw at 6:40 PM on September 20, 2017
I love The Watchmen and hate this idea. But the thing I keep thinking is how strange it is when a genre deconstruction ends up being one of the most popular examples of the genre it's deconstructing, even among people without the rest of the context. See also Neon Genesis Evangelion and Game of Thrones.
posted by penduluum at 6:44 PM on September 20, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by penduluum at 6:44 PM on September 20, 2017 [15 favorites]
personal theory is that someone high up in the media Illuminati is trying to push Alan Moore
Surely the Freemasons still owe him for From Hell. Cable's length from running water and all that.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2017
Surely the Freemasons still owe him for From Hell. Cable's length from running water and all that.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2017
Game of Thrones has gone round the other side and is full on fat fantasy novel TV version now.
posted by Artw at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Marvel Cinematic Universe is a carnival of excess. It's ripe for a modern equivalent of The Watchmen.
It seems to me The Watchmen itself is talking about a very particular comic book period though. Outside of its context, it's mostly a story about sad people wearing silly outfits and being kind of mean.
Adapting Moore so that one of those fits the other is... I mean... I wish them luck? I think it'd work better if you started from scratch but I can see how that's a hard sell.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
It seems to me The Watchmen itself is talking about a very particular comic book period though. Outside of its context, it's mostly a story about sad people wearing silly outfits and being kind of mean.
Adapting Moore so that one of those fits the other is... I mean... I wish them luck? I think it'd work better if you started from scratch but I can see how that's a hard sell.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 6:45 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Rogen and Goldberg to take on Ennis and Robertson’s The Boys for Amazon
posted by Artw at 6:50 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:50 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
For maximum stylistic dissonance they should film it in the style of Dick Tracy
posted by Existential Dread at 7:00 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 7:00 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
And yet, I can't even get a meeting for my Ballad of Halo Jones mini-series.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:22 PM on September 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:22 PM on September 20, 2017 [7 favorites]
You can do a shot-for-panel remake of Watchmen which Snyder almost did and it still won't capture what Watchmen is about. To do it right you'd have to make a movie or TV show that is itself a deconstruction of modern superhero films.
posted by runcibleshaw at 8:07 PM on September 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by runcibleshaw at 8:07 PM on September 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
It's shaping up to be a busyshitty year for the Watchmen
Before these announcements, you could debate which was the worse idea: to have a number of prequels to Watchmen, or to have the director of 300 do the movie adaptation. (And I'm not even adopting the extremist position that there were absolutely no redeeming values in either; although the movie managed the difficult trick of both being too faithful to the comic and making mostly bad changes when it wasn't, there were some good performances in it, and the comics done by Darwyn Cooke and Amanda Conner weren't totally awful, although they suffered from the idiotic editorial decision to try to redeem the Comedian across the different titles.) Now we've got the totally fucked decision to blame Flashpoint on Dr. Manhattan dueling with the guy who screwed up one project after another--but is being given an awful lot of slack because there's one series that he couldn't or wouldn't ruin--taking on a project that better creators attempted and abandoned. (And a TV series? If there was too much for a movie to cover adequately, there's too little for anything but a relatively short miniseries, unless they pad it out; I don't even want to write this out for fear of somehow tempting fate, but if he's going to incorporate the Before Watchmen crap, I won't watch it even to hate on it.)
Alan Moore isn't beyond criticism; there's been some long-overdue reconsideration of his earlier work, and he's been wasting his time recently with crap such as his work on Crossed. (Providence is better, but I don't know that it's good enough to warrant finishing out the series, which some people have criticized for a disappointing ending.) I still look forward to the eventual publication of The Moon and Serpent Bumper Book of Magic, which he says is still in the works in this interview, which also says something about a new and supposedly final LoEG volume (I thought that the "Century" books were supposed to be the final installment, but anyway), and I'll get that, too, but I'm largely over my infatuation with him. Regardless, he doesn't deserve this.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:23 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Before these announcements, you could debate which was the worse idea: to have a number of prequels to Watchmen, or to have the director of 300 do the movie adaptation. (And I'm not even adopting the extremist position that there were absolutely no redeeming values in either; although the movie managed the difficult trick of both being too faithful to the comic and making mostly bad changes when it wasn't, there were some good performances in it, and the comics done by Darwyn Cooke and Amanda Conner weren't totally awful, although they suffered from the idiotic editorial decision to try to redeem the Comedian across the different titles.) Now we've got the totally fucked decision to blame Flashpoint on Dr. Manhattan dueling with the guy who screwed up one project after another--but is being given an awful lot of slack because there's one series that he couldn't or wouldn't ruin--taking on a project that better creators attempted and abandoned. (And a TV series? If there was too much for a movie to cover adequately, there's too little for anything but a relatively short miniseries, unless they pad it out; I don't even want to write this out for fear of somehow tempting fate, but if he's going to incorporate the Before Watchmen crap, I won't watch it even to hate on it.)
Alan Moore isn't beyond criticism; there's been some long-overdue reconsideration of his earlier work, and he's been wasting his time recently with crap such as his work on Crossed. (Providence is better, but I don't know that it's good enough to warrant finishing out the series, which some people have criticized for a disappointing ending.) I still look forward to the eventual publication of The Moon and Serpent Bumper Book of Magic, which he says is still in the works in this interview, which also says something about a new and supposedly final LoEG volume (I thought that the "Century" books were supposed to be the final installment, but anyway), and I'll get that, too, but I'm largely over my infatuation with him. Regardless, he doesn't deserve this.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:23 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Watchmen is great, but is what they're gonna do such a radical departure from the last time around that we need to see it again? Is the new Lara Croft movie really any different from the old Lara Croft movies? It's increasingly difficult to feel that we need more slightly-off adaptations made from the same tiny handful of source materials.
I think we should switch the sole basis of American popular culture from Batman to Game Of Thrones. All these projects should be abandoned in favor of making new, recast, slightly different versions of Game Of Thrones. Then they can start making hybridized versions in which the Night King kills Jon Snow's parents, and Jon Snow grows up to be Batman...
It might sound ridiculous, but it'd be better than what we're gonna get.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:27 PM on September 20, 2017
I think we should switch the sole basis of American popular culture from Batman to Game Of Thrones. All these projects should be abandoned in favor of making new, recast, slightly different versions of Game Of Thrones. Then they can start making hybridized versions in which the Night King kills Jon Snow's parents, and Jon Snow grows up to be Batman...
It might sound ridiculous, but it'd be better than what we're gonna get.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:27 PM on September 20, 2017
I think we should switch the sole basis of American popular culture from Batman to Game Of Thrones. All these projects should be abandoned in favor of making new, recast, slightly different versions of Game Of Thrones.
Ahem.
posted by runcibleshaw at 8:56 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Ahem.
posted by runcibleshaw at 8:56 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Only thing of Moore's I still have - in fact, one of only three comic books I own in physical format - is his complete Future Shocks. I would have liked to add Supreme to the pile, possibly, but last I checked that couldn't be had for love or money and now I no longer care. His work on Neonomicon and Crossed just soured me on Moore completely, and the Century stuff was awful waffle as well.
(The other two books I have are the pair of Fletcher Hanks collections from Fantagraphics.)
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:57 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
(The other two books I have are the pair of Fletcher Hanks collections from Fantagraphics.)
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:57 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Alan Moore isn't beyond criticism; there's been some long-overdue reconsideration of his earlier work
As a longtime fan who's not quite a full fanboy, I'd love to read a few links to some of this reconsideration.
posted by mediareport at 8:58 PM on September 20, 2017
As a longtime fan who's not quite a full fanboy, I'd love to read a few links to some of this reconsideration.
posted by mediareport at 8:58 PM on September 20, 2017
How much dragon money did you waste on this HBO?
Cause if you wanted an old timey superhero series, you could have just used Wild Cards.
posted by FJT at 9:24 PM on September 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
Cause if you wanted an old timey superhero series, you could have just used Wild Cards.
posted by FJT at 9:24 PM on September 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
I have to assume that most of the Lindelof hate in here is coming from people who haven't seen Leftovers. Honestly guys, if you haven't, you really owe it to yourself, it's one of the most astounding things I've ever seen on television.
The fact that Lindelof is attached doesn't really inspire any *additional* confidence, I'm in the 'Watchmen is unfilmable' camp myself, but if -- if -- Lindelof can bring to bear the kind of nuance he brought on Leftovers, I'd watch this every day and twice on Sundays.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:35 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
The fact that Lindelof is attached doesn't really inspire any *additional* confidence, I'm in the 'Watchmen is unfilmable' camp myself, but if -- if -- Lindelof can bring to bear the kind of nuance he brought on Leftovers, I'd watch this every day and twice on Sundays.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:35 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've always thought From Hell would suit adaptation as a long, full-dramatisation BBC radio series. Done right, this approach could get the book's creepy atmosphere across wonderfully well.
It's a shame Watchmen continues to dominate people's view of Moore's work. It hasn't aged well, and is very far from being his best work. From Hell, Promethea, Neonomicon, Jerusalem and The Highbury Working are his five peak works, in my view. His own movie, Jimmy's End, looks pretty promising too. There's a lot more to the man's writing than his early superhero stuff (which now looks like juvenilia, frankly), and a pity so many people stop there when reading him.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:33 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's a shame Watchmen continues to dominate people's view of Moore's work. It hasn't aged well, and is very far from being his best work. From Hell, Promethea, Neonomicon, Jerusalem and The Highbury Working are his five peak works, in my view. His own movie, Jimmy's End, looks pretty promising too. There's a lot more to the man's writing than his early superhero stuff (which now looks like juvenilia, frankly), and a pity so many people stop there when reading him.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:33 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I will only watch this if it turns out it's actually going to be that pirate themed comic-inside-comic in Watchmen.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:46 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:46 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world where what lies ahead is vague and uncertain. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. Lindelof movie is on in town tonight. Go and see that. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor...I am Lindelof.”
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:29 AM on September 21, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:29 AM on September 21, 2017 [18 favorites]
Rarely is the question asked: Who will watch Watchmen?
posted by quinndexter at 3:19 AM on September 21, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by quinndexter at 3:19 AM on September 21, 2017 [14 favorites]
Watchmen is a story about human archetypes.
The most human thing about them all, is that none of them realise the characters they're playing.
posted by chmmr at 3:22 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
The most human thing about them all, is that none of them realise the characters they're playing.
posted by chmmr at 3:22 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
In other superhero deconstruction news from a couple of weeks ago: The Boys is getting a script order and may go straight to series at Amazon.
posted by heatvision at 3:27 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by heatvision at 3:27 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
FROM HELL'S HEART I STAB AT THEE
I approve of this post.
posted by KHAAAN! at 3:51 AM on September 21, 2017 [10 favorites]
I approve of this post.
posted by KHAAAN! at 3:51 AM on September 21, 2017 [10 favorites]
I say this as someone who loves superhero stories: It might be time to start thinking about making shows for grown-ups again.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:31 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:31 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm someone who doesn't particularly love superhero stories, and this just reminds me to worry that we've become so fully entrenched in magical thinking infantile wish fulfillment stories and have completely abandoned the underdog-does-good or the common-man/woman-saves-the-day narratives in favor of daddy-fixes-everything narratives. Oy vey.
Fortunately, with the insanely bad writing of Lindelof, maybe this will help tire out the viewing public.
posted by sonascope at 5:41 AM on September 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
Fortunately, with the insanely bad writing of Lindelof, maybe this will help tire out the viewing public.
posted by sonascope at 5:41 AM on September 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
So, that ending, the one where a massive attack on New York City is supposed to unite the world? Veidt might want to rethink that one. Turns out it didn't actually work that well in practice.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:45 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by gusottertrout at 5:45 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
well dubya is no nixon
posted by entropicamericana at 5:47 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 5:47 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's not supposed to work that well in the book
posted by dng at 5:47 AM on September 21, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by dng at 5:47 AM on September 21, 2017 [5 favorites]
As a longtime fan who's not quite a full fanboy, I'd love to read a few links to some of this reconsideration.
You can start with any number of threads on the blue tagged "alanmoore". They link out to a number of different sites and interviews and things.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:24 AM on September 21, 2017
You can start with any number of threads on the blue tagged "alanmoore". They link out to a number of different sites and interviews and things.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:24 AM on September 21, 2017
I'm someone who doesn't particularly love superhero stories, and this just reminds me to worry that we've become so fully entrenched in magical thinking infantile wish fulfillment stories and have completely abandoned the underdog-does-good or the common-man/woman-saves-the-day narratives in favor of daddy-fixes-everything narratives. Oy vey.
Those narratives also exist in superhero stories. The trend towards authoritarian/daddy-knows-best narratives is visible across a broad spectrum of recent media, and was neither invented nor popularized by superhero stories. (personally, I blame law & order, and various other procedural dramas that focused on heroic cops and prosecutors instead of defense lawyers or independent investigators).
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 7:14 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Those narratives also exist in superhero stories. The trend towards authoritarian/daddy-knows-best narratives is visible across a broad spectrum of recent media, and was neither invented nor popularized by superhero stories. (personally, I blame law & order, and various other procedural dramas that focused on heroic cops and prosecutors instead of defense lawyers or independent investigators).
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 7:14 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
I always thought the Watchmen movie was well-executed. The original graphic novel was a tribute, pastiche, and send-up of superhero comics. The Snyder movie was that, but to superhero movies.
It just so happened that superhero movies were terrible, so it was a tribute to such shlock as Schumacher's Batman & Robin.
A terrible idea, well-executed.
posted by explosion at 7:19 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
It just so happened that superhero movies were terrible, so it was a tribute to such shlock as Schumacher's Batman & Robin.
A terrible idea, well-executed.
posted by explosion at 7:19 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I remember the immediate aftermath of 9/11, when the world WAS united in pro-American sentiment.
Of course it didn't take long for them to piss that up the wall with Iraq.
...which I guess is the implication of Viedts last chat with Dr Manhattan?
Even ignoring the journal you could build a nice Watchmen II out of that. If you were a monster.
posted by Artw at 7:20 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Of course it didn't take long for them to piss that up the wall with Iraq.
...which I guess is the implication of Viedts last chat with Dr Manhattan?
Even ignoring the journal you could build a nice Watchmen II out of that. If you were a monster.
posted by Artw at 7:20 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I always thought the Watchmen movie was well-executed. The original graphic novel was a tribute, pastiche, and send-up of superhero comics. The Snyder movie was that, but to superhero movies.
that's a nice interpretation but zack snyder just isn't that clever
citation: batman v. superman
posted by entropicamericana at 7:25 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
that's a nice interpretation but zack snyder just isn't that clever
citation: batman v. superman
posted by entropicamericana at 7:25 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's not supposed to work that well in the book
My point was more that we all know how it works out now, along with all the other changes since the original, so any adaptation is going to either be an "update" on the story as an attempt to gain currency, or like the movie, more a museum piece that points to little of meaning in a media world that's already absorbed Watchmen and shit what it swallowed back out at us for decades. Superheroes have been deconstructed to the point of foolishness given how obvious much of it was in the first place, grimdark has been flavor of the month more regularly than pumpkin spice, and its politics only avoid being questionable by dint of the same kind of ambiguity prominent in super hero movies since at least Nolan's ridiculous Batman films.
Can they reimagine the series to fit the political climate of the day? Sure, anything's possible, but I'm far from convinced the source material is the ideal jumping off point, and even more so given the attachment many people have to the story tied to engaging with it in its era.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:28 AM on September 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
My point was more that we all know how it works out now, along with all the other changes since the original, so any adaptation is going to either be an "update" on the story as an attempt to gain currency, or like the movie, more a museum piece that points to little of meaning in a media world that's already absorbed Watchmen and shit what it swallowed back out at us for decades. Superheroes have been deconstructed to the point of foolishness given how obvious much of it was in the first place, grimdark has been flavor of the month more regularly than pumpkin spice, and its politics only avoid being questionable by dint of the same kind of ambiguity prominent in super hero movies since at least Nolan's ridiculous Batman films.
Can they reimagine the series to fit the political climate of the day? Sure, anything's possible, but I'm far from convinced the source material is the ideal jumping off point, and even more so given the attachment many people have to the story tied to engaging with it in its era.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:28 AM on September 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
At this point, production companies seem to be just going through lists of best-selling comics and finding what's up for grabs. If the trend continues, in a few years I'm expecting a call from someone wanting to option Atomic Tomato Man, which I wrote as a school project in 9th grade.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:41 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by lmfsilva at 7:41 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
At this point, production companies seem to be just going through lists of best-selling comics and finding what's up for grabs
I keep waiting for the announcement of the Julius Knipl: Real Estate Photographer miniseries Guy Maddin needs to direct, but it never comes.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:50 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I keep waiting for the announcement of the Julius Knipl: Real Estate Photographer miniseries Guy Maddin needs to direct, but it never comes.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:50 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I gave up on Lost after one season, but the last season of The Leftovers was honestly one of the best things I've ever seen on TV. I don't know how much of that difference can be attributed to Lindelof being able to tell a story about how humans react to the inexplicable without needed to explain the mysteries themselves, something you can't do on network tv, with their singular focus on ratings. Or maybe he just had better people working with him.
But he's capable of producing amazing work, and I wish more people had seen The Leftovers, which might have helped to wash some of the Lost/Prometheus stink off of him.
If Watchmen sucks, I disavow authorship of this post.
posted by bibliowench at 8:36 AM on September 21, 2017
But he's capable of producing amazing work, and I wish more people had seen The Leftovers, which might have helped to wash some of the Lost/Prometheus stink off of him.
If Watchmen sucks, I disavow authorship of this post.
posted by bibliowench at 8:36 AM on September 21, 2017
re: LOST vs. Leftovers
I think the big differences is that with the Leftovers they explicitly started with the expectation that they wouldn't explain what happened. Whereas, with LOST the expectation was that everything was going to add up to something. It is clear that they didn't have a master plan for making everything in LOST add up to something and that coupled with the open ended nature of a network TV series meant there was a lot of crazy details that in retrospect appear to have been haphazardly thrown against the wall.
I say this as a person who generally liked LOST (although thought that the ending didn't justify all the narrative work that preceded it). As for The Leftovers, I generally liked most of it but didn't love it as much as critics did. With that said, the ending with its poignancy and ambiguity was sheer perfection.
posted by mmascolino at 8:56 AM on September 21, 2017
I think the big differences is that with the Leftovers they explicitly started with the expectation that they wouldn't explain what happened. Whereas, with LOST the expectation was that everything was going to add up to something. It is clear that they didn't have a master plan for making everything in LOST add up to something and that coupled with the open ended nature of a network TV series meant there was a lot of crazy details that in retrospect appear to have been haphazardly thrown against the wall.
I say this as a person who generally liked LOST (although thought that the ending didn't justify all the narrative work that preceded it). As for The Leftovers, I generally liked most of it but didn't love it as much as critics did. With that said, the ending with its poignancy and ambiguity was sheer perfection.
posted by mmascolino at 8:56 AM on September 21, 2017
Maybe someday he'll do one of these shows with an unsolvable mystery where the character drama is the important thing and just leave out the unsolvable mystery.
posted by Artw at 8:58 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:58 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Maybe someday he'll do one of these shows with an unsolvable mystery where the character drama is the important thing and just leave out the unsolvable mystery.
Lindlelof's Waiting For Godot
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:05 AM on September 21, 2017
Lindlelof's Waiting For Godot
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 9:05 AM on September 21, 2017
As a longtime fan who's not quite a full fanboy, I'd love to read a few links to some of this reconsideration.
Well, as a start...
I don't think you need to go that far though to see the misogyny in Alan "rape is a larf" Moore's work. Consider the women in Watchmen: all them base their dramatic roles around the men in their lives; they are passive and have little autonomy. Take Silk Specter: what is the ultimate dramatic act of our female lead? Being dragged off to Mars by her ex, where she has to persuade HIM to take action. And she does this by breaking down and crying.
And then there's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which revels in its brutaliy to women, and plays a child rape scene for humor. "Hurr hurr hurr Anne of Greene Gables stars in Alan Moores' rape-pregnancy fic" (yes, ironic mysogyny and racism is still misogyny snd racism). And Neonomicon, which is about an FBI agent being raped repeatedly until she accepts her destiny to be the mother of Cthulhu.
So while he doesnt hang around the MRA or Red Pill groups, Moore really does have some problems with women.
posted by happyroach at 9:12 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well, as a start...
I don't think you need to go that far though to see the misogyny in Alan "rape is a larf" Moore's work. Consider the women in Watchmen: all them base their dramatic roles around the men in their lives; they are passive and have little autonomy. Take Silk Specter: what is the ultimate dramatic act of our female lead? Being dragged off to Mars by her ex, where she has to persuade HIM to take action. And she does this by breaking down and crying.
And then there's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which revels in its brutaliy to women, and plays a child rape scene for humor. "Hurr hurr hurr Anne of Greene Gables stars in Alan Moores' rape-pregnancy fic" (yes, ironic mysogyny and racism is still misogyny snd racism). And Neonomicon, which is about an FBI agent being raped repeatedly until she accepts her destiny to be the mother of Cthulhu.
So while he doesnt hang around the MRA or Red Pill groups, Moore really does have some problems with women.
posted by happyroach at 9:12 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
that's a nice interpretation but zack snyder just isn't that clever
citation: batman v. superman
my dream for the justice league movie is that in the big climactic setpiece battle ALL of the heroes and villains simultaneously realize that their mothers are all named Martha
slowly, in unison, they turn and look directly into the camera
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:17 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
citation: batman v. superman
my dream for the justice league movie is that in the big climactic setpiece battle ALL of the heroes and villains simultaneously realize that their mothers are all named Martha
slowly, in unison, they turn and look directly into the camera
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:17 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
Moore is way too fond of rape as a plot device, but this reading of his work is simplistic and extremely slovenly.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:48 AM on September 21, 2017
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:48 AM on September 21, 2017
Moore is way too fond of rape as a plot device, but this reading of his work is simplistic and extremely slovenly.
Then instead of taking cheap shots, go ahead and defend Moore's writing of women. And do it in a way that doesn't also justify "Women in Refrigerators" plots. Try defending LoEG without using the bullshit "I did a humerous rape scene to point out the sexism in pulp novels" excuse. Try excusing the fact that both Silk Spectre's roles in Watchman are based on their being subordinante to their relationships to the male characters. Go ahead and fucking try to defend Neomicon's use of women.
Or maybe people could just, for once, stop refexively defending Moore's misogyny. It makes me wonder what they want from women in their stories.
posted by happyroach at 11:21 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Then instead of taking cheap shots, go ahead and defend Moore's writing of women. And do it in a way that doesn't also justify "Women in Refrigerators" plots. Try defending LoEG without using the bullshit "I did a humerous rape scene to point out the sexism in pulp novels" excuse. Try excusing the fact that both Silk Spectre's roles in Watchman are based on their being subordinante to their relationships to the male characters. Go ahead and fucking try to defend Neomicon's use of women.
Or maybe people could just, for once, stop refexively defending Moore's misogyny. It makes me wonder what they want from women in their stories.
posted by happyroach at 11:21 AM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
I liked the movie and see no reason to revisit this again. I'd much rather see Transmetropolitan, it's very for-our-times. That or maybe Sandman, equally unfilmable, but you could do some good stuff with some of the 6 issue arcs.
What really worries me about a Watchman TV show is OMG what if they try to do Season 2? I mean that's what's happening with Handmaid's Tale, and I tremble at what may happen to an excellent show and story so far.
posted by Nelson at 11:21 AM on September 21, 2017
What really worries me about a Watchman TV show is OMG what if they try to do Season 2? I mean that's what's happening with Handmaid's Tale, and I tremble at what may happen to an excellent show and story so far.
posted by Nelson at 11:21 AM on September 21, 2017
It's not a cheap shot. Your characterization of these stories doesn't really track with the mood of the stories or the way Moore writes women in general. To me, this implies a reading that's either really cynical or just not attentive. I think your criticism is weak. It's not to say Moore is above criticism, or that he can't fairly be criticized on grounds of sexism. I just don't think your argument is very good or representative of his work.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:54 AM on September 21, 2017
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:54 AM on September 21, 2017
For the record, LOST was not ALL Lindelof. He was taking orders from J.J. Abrams and co-show-running with Carlton Cuse, whose previous main credit was "Nash Bridges" and since has semi-redeemed himself with "Bates Motel" and "The Strain" but is now in danger of un-redeeming with "Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan".
Creative Inconsistency. It makes TV watching more of an adventure, damnit.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:34 PM on September 21, 2017
Creative Inconsistency. It makes TV watching more of an adventure, damnit.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:34 PM on September 21, 2017
The Strain was redeeming of Carlton Cuse? The only thing that was mildly good about that show was that they could do excellent body horror special effects on a basic tv budget.
posted by mmascolino at 12:39 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mmascolino at 12:39 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Your characterization of these stories doesn't really track with the mood of the stories or the way Moore writes women in general.
I'm basing my commentary directly on Moore's use of women in his stories. He's sexist in a very 1960s hippy sort of way. Women can be liberated, as long as ultimately they exist for the support and sexual gratification of men- or else. That's the case in Miracleman, Watchman, Killing Joke, League, Lost Girls, Promethia, Neomicon, and so on.
Case example: eye going to permanently cripple a woman in a way that fans all debate over where it was a rape. Why? To give the male characters the feels, and create drama as to what the MEN will do. I seriously, come ON- that was cheap, sexist, lazy writing. You wanna even try justifying that shit?
Look, if any other writer was pulling this consistent level of sexism in his work, we'd be calling it out. Hell, we even stopped giving Whedon a pass. But for some reason, Moore gets a pass on his shit from fandom at large. Go fig.
Also, the number for "way too fond of rape as a plot device" is ONE. Putting a half dozen rapes or sexualuzed assaults in one's work isn't "fond of a plot device", its "You need to stop putting women in your writing until you get some fucking therapy. "
posted by happyroach at 1:25 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm basing my commentary directly on Moore's use of women in his stories. He's sexist in a very 1960s hippy sort of way. Women can be liberated, as long as ultimately they exist for the support and sexual gratification of men- or else. That's the case in Miracleman, Watchman, Killing Joke, League, Lost Girls, Promethia, Neomicon, and so on.
Case example: eye going to permanently cripple a woman in a way that fans all debate over where it was a rape. Why? To give the male characters the feels, and create drama as to what the MEN will do. I seriously, come ON- that was cheap, sexist, lazy writing. You wanna even try justifying that shit?
Look, if any other writer was pulling this consistent level of sexism in his work, we'd be calling it out. Hell, we even stopped giving Whedon a pass. But for some reason, Moore gets a pass on his shit from fandom at large. Go fig.
Also, the number for "way too fond of rape as a plot device" is ONE. Putting a half dozen rapes or sexualuzed assaults in one's work isn't "fond of a plot device", its "You need to stop putting women in your writing until you get some fucking therapy. "
posted by happyroach at 1:25 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm basing my commentary directly on Moore's use of women in his stories. He's sexist in a very 1960s hippy sort of way. Women can be liberated, as long as ultimately they exist for the support and sexual gratification of men- or else. That's the case in Miracleman, Watchman, Killing Joke, League, Lost Girls, Promethia, Neomicon, and so on.
What does this even really mean, though? This is sensationalistic clickbait-y stuff, but it just doesn't even...like, the words are arranged in a logical sequence but what does any of this have to do with the books you're talking about? If you look at something like The Killing Joke, it is super problematic that Barbara Gordon is reduced to a plot device -- stripped, crippled, presumably raped, and not even the focus of the story; this is all done to her to get at her father and at Batman. That's terrible! I hate The Killing Joke, for this very reason. But how on Earth is Barbara Gordon being punished for being a liberated woman? That doesn't have the first thing to do with the story. Is Barbara Gordon a liberated woman? She's barely even a character. That's a real problem! But it's not the problem you've identified. You're talking about something that doesn't really have much to do with what's on the page.
I don't think Moore has ever used rape "for laffs," as you for some reason chose to phrase it. I think the scene of the Invisible Man molesting schoolgirls is kind of an edge case, because we're certainly not meant to endorse the behavior of someone who in the very next volume literally sells out the entire world for personal gain, but his actions do play satirically off of notions of Victorian-era repression. It's a sketchy scene in a body of work that contains a lot of rape scenes.
I don't enjoy reading rape scenes, and I would be jazzed not to read more. I would suggest, though, that Moore is a writer with a bent toward horror, and that horror tends to be about things to trouble us. I can't, off the top of my head, think of a rape scene in any Moore book that I have read that I believe is intended to titillate. These scenes tend to play as disturbing, and I think they are meant to. I've encountered rape scenes in other works -- Craster's house on Game of Thrones leaps to mind -- that I feel are very much intended to be sexy, which is incredibly, horribly bad. I don't think, say, Sally Jupiter puking when Blake punches her in the stomach is meant to be hot, even though I am cognizant of the reality that everything is porn to somebody.
Certainly, though, the idea that women in Moore's stories "exist for the sexual gratification of men -- or else" does not scan with the reality of Moore's actual work. It sounds like a heavy thing to say, sure. But I'm not thinking of a scene that illustrates this principle. I would argue that Moore has written many villains who treat women this way, but they are villains. I don't think the stories are endorsing this idea at all.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:01 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
What does this even really mean, though? This is sensationalistic clickbait-y stuff, but it just doesn't even...like, the words are arranged in a logical sequence but what does any of this have to do with the books you're talking about? If you look at something like The Killing Joke, it is super problematic that Barbara Gordon is reduced to a plot device -- stripped, crippled, presumably raped, and not even the focus of the story; this is all done to her to get at her father and at Batman. That's terrible! I hate The Killing Joke, for this very reason. But how on Earth is Barbara Gordon being punished for being a liberated woman? That doesn't have the first thing to do with the story. Is Barbara Gordon a liberated woman? She's barely even a character. That's a real problem! But it's not the problem you've identified. You're talking about something that doesn't really have much to do with what's on the page.
I don't think Moore has ever used rape "for laffs," as you for some reason chose to phrase it. I think the scene of the Invisible Man molesting schoolgirls is kind of an edge case, because we're certainly not meant to endorse the behavior of someone who in the very next volume literally sells out the entire world for personal gain, but his actions do play satirically off of notions of Victorian-era repression. It's a sketchy scene in a body of work that contains a lot of rape scenes.
I don't enjoy reading rape scenes, and I would be jazzed not to read more. I would suggest, though, that Moore is a writer with a bent toward horror, and that horror tends to be about things to trouble us. I can't, off the top of my head, think of a rape scene in any Moore book that I have read that I believe is intended to titillate. These scenes tend to play as disturbing, and I think they are meant to. I've encountered rape scenes in other works -- Craster's house on Game of Thrones leaps to mind -- that I feel are very much intended to be sexy, which is incredibly, horribly bad. I don't think, say, Sally Jupiter puking when Blake punches her in the stomach is meant to be hot, even though I am cognizant of the reality that everything is porn to somebody.
Certainly, though, the idea that women in Moore's stories "exist for the sexual gratification of men -- or else" does not scan with the reality of Moore's actual work. It sounds like a heavy thing to say, sure. But I'm not thinking of a scene that illustrates this principle. I would argue that Moore has written many villains who treat women this way, but they are villains. I don't think the stories are endorsing this idea at all.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 2:01 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
One more thing about Lindelof: The AV Club interviewed Michael Schur, the evil genius behind "The Good Place", and in the process, Schur told how much "Lost" had influenced him and how he consulted Lindelof, who admitted that 'not having a long-term plan' was the BIG mistake he made on that show. So, if he's now doing serious pre-planning, that should reduce the Lindelof-based fears about the Watchmen series...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:13 PM on September 21, 2017
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:13 PM on September 21, 2017
It might also be okay if he stopped making everything a metaphor for Jesus
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:53 PM on September 21, 2017
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:53 PM on September 21, 2017
The Strain was redeeming of Carlton Cuse? The only thing that was mildly good about that show was that they could do excellent body horror special effects on a basic tv budget.
That and I have two more seasons to watch. Thanks for the reminder!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:38 PM on September 21, 2017
That and I have two more seasons to watch. Thanks for the reminder!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:38 PM on September 21, 2017
What does this even really mean, though? This is sensationalistic clickbait-y stuff, but it just doesn't even...like, the words are arranged in a logical sequence but what does any of this have to do with the books you're talking about?
Oh come on. Stop being disingenuous. Compare the women in Watchmen with that of the men as far as their major decisions:
"I'm going to find out who killed the Comedian"
"I'm gong to break Rorschach out of jail."
"I'm going to seep with Dan."
Or as KBush says in "Sexism in Watchman?":
Go on. I'm waiting.
No seriously, that problem is endemic to his work.
Take Killing Joke: Barbara Gorden is reduced from the independent heroine that she was in the comics, to support for Batman going after Joker. She's fridged in order to give the emotional drama for Batman to overcome.
Promethia: The heroine is in the book so the beautiful Goddess can have sex with an Alan Moore self-insert, who then spends, god, the next two-thousand issues or more droning on and on about the Kabbalah. He managed a metatextual level of sexism there, saying the character was not only an adjunct to the male n the comic, but to Moore's desire to lecture us on the occult.
I don't think Moore has ever used rape "for laffs," as you for some reason chose to phrase it. I think the scene of the Invisible Man molesting schoolgirls is kind of an edge case, because we're certainly not meant to endorse the behavior of someone who in the very next volume literally sells out the entire world for personal gain, but his actions do play satirically off of notions of Victorian-era repression.
Once again. Satirical rape is still rape. Ironic rape is still rape. Repeat until that sinks in.
Yes. It's a fucking joke. It's a joke where a guy pretends to be God and rapes and impregnates naive schoolgirls as a comment on how stupid and pliable they are. And caps it off with a pregnant Anne of Green Gables as a huge middle finger to any girl who read and enjoyed that work.
Playing satirically my ass. It's an excuse to denigrate teen girls and teen girl literature, and play rape for fun. If it was done by any other writer, he would be ripped to shreds for it. but because it's Saint Moore, fans are incapable of actually stepping back and looking at his work with a critical eye. Seriously, if John C Wright or Orson Scott Card pulled that scene out of their ass, we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.
I would suggest, though, that Moore is a writer with a bent toward horror, and that horror tends to be about things to trouble us.
Oh for...that is the lamest excuse, and I can't believe anyone is still using it in this day and age. But for anyone who is one the few who haven't got the point yet:
Rape Scenes Aren't Just Awful. They're Lazy Writing
The Problem with Rape's Portrayal in Fiction
Writing About Rape
Rape as a narrative device in horror is unnecessary. It's a cheap, schlocky and sexist trick, a sign of an incompetent writer looking for something of shock value to throw at the viewer. And that's leaving out the horrible narrative role it puts women into. Yet, for some reason we are supposed to believe Moore is a more than competent writer. If he is, and he is still repeatedly putting rape, and sexualized assault into his works, then that says something very ugly about his attitudes toward women. And I will say that defending his use of rape puts his fans in a nasty position regarding their attitudes toward the roles of women in fiction.
posted by happyroach at 10:48 PM on September 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh come on. Stop being disingenuous. Compare the women in Watchmen with that of the men as far as their major decisions:
"I'm going to find out who killed the Comedian"
"I'm gong to break Rorschach out of jail."
"I'm going to seep with Dan."
Or as KBush says in "Sexism in Watchman?":
The female characters in Watchmen don’t exist independently of a man or independently of the definition of a woman as something someone can have sex with.If you can honestly, truly find a different interpretation of the women in Watchmen, then do it. Instead of flailing around screaming "Clickbait!" make an actual goddamned argument that the main women in Watchmen act with autonomy and independently of men.
Go on. I'm waiting.
No seriously, that problem is endemic to his work.
Take Killing Joke: Barbara Gorden is reduced from the independent heroine that she was in the comics, to support for Batman going after Joker. She's fridged in order to give the emotional drama for Batman to overcome.
Promethia: The heroine is in the book so the beautiful Goddess can have sex with an Alan Moore self-insert, who then spends, god, the next two-thousand issues or more droning on and on about the Kabbalah. He managed a metatextual level of sexism there, saying the character was not only an adjunct to the male n the comic, but to Moore's desire to lecture us on the occult.
I don't think Moore has ever used rape "for laffs," as you for some reason chose to phrase it. I think the scene of the Invisible Man molesting schoolgirls is kind of an edge case, because we're certainly not meant to endorse the behavior of someone who in the very next volume literally sells out the entire world for personal gain, but his actions do play satirically off of notions of Victorian-era repression.
Once again. Satirical rape is still rape. Ironic rape is still rape. Repeat until that sinks in.
Yes. It's a fucking joke. It's a joke where a guy pretends to be God and rapes and impregnates naive schoolgirls as a comment on how stupid and pliable they are. And caps it off with a pregnant Anne of Green Gables as a huge middle finger to any girl who read and enjoyed that work.
Playing satirically my ass. It's an excuse to denigrate teen girls and teen girl literature, and play rape for fun. If it was done by any other writer, he would be ripped to shreds for it. but because it's Saint Moore, fans are incapable of actually stepping back and looking at his work with a critical eye. Seriously, if John C Wright or Orson Scott Card pulled that scene out of their ass, we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.
I would suggest, though, that Moore is a writer with a bent toward horror, and that horror tends to be about things to trouble us.
Oh for...that is the lamest excuse, and I can't believe anyone is still using it in this day and age. But for anyone who is one the few who haven't got the point yet:
Rape Scenes Aren't Just Awful. They're Lazy Writing
The Problem with Rape's Portrayal in Fiction
Writing About Rape
Rape as a narrative device in horror is unnecessary. It's a cheap, schlocky and sexist trick, a sign of an incompetent writer looking for something of shock value to throw at the viewer. And that's leaving out the horrible narrative role it puts women into. Yet, for some reason we are supposed to believe Moore is a more than competent writer. If he is, and he is still repeatedly putting rape, and sexualized assault into his works, then that says something very ugly about his attitudes toward women. And I will say that defending his use of rape puts his fans in a nasty position regarding their attitudes toward the roles of women in fiction.
posted by happyroach at 10:48 PM on September 21, 2017 [4 favorites]
Okay, so I'm probably not reading all of that, but
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:28 AM on September 22, 2017
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:28 AM on September 22, 2017
To be honest, I'm not a fan of Alan Moore's stuff outside of Watchmen (I think he's a bit a wanker, really) but I sincerely think Watchmen really is a titan of comic book medium. When I first read it a few months after it was released, it was on the superficial level, but I've returned to dozens of times over the decades and picked up something new nearly every read.
Ultimately, every major character in Watchmen is broken or at least profoundly flawed in some way, and many of the minor characters (most of the Minutemen) are as well. Nobody fares very well under any sort of scrutiny. Inna final analysis.
I stopped reading LXG because it really did seem to be a lazy, exploitative comic. The rape in Watchmen comic is portrayed pretty brutally to my recollection. It's Zack Snyder that really fetishizes it with creaking leather, slow motion, lingering male gaze from the Comedian's POV.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:09 AM on September 22, 2017
Ultimately, every major character in Watchmen is broken or at least profoundly flawed in some way, and many of the minor characters (most of the Minutemen) are as well. Nobody fares very well under any sort of scrutiny. Inna final analysis.
I stopped reading LXG because it really did seem to be a lazy, exploitative comic. The rape in Watchmen comic is portrayed pretty brutally to my recollection. It's Zack Snyder that really fetishizes it with creaking leather, slow motion, lingering male gaze from the Comedian's POV.
posted by entropicamericana at 7:09 AM on September 22, 2017
Promethia: The heroine is in the book so the beautiful Goddess can have sex with an Alan Moore self-insert, who then spends, god, the next two-thousand issues or more droning on and on about the Kabbalah. He managed a metatextual level of sexism there, saying the character was not only an adjunct to the male n the comic, but to Moore's desire to lecture us on the occult.
Even as someone who, as previously stipulated, has become disenchanted with Moore, I have to say that that's an incredibly poor and ridiculously reductive reading of the work.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:49 AM on September 22, 2017
Even as someone who, as previously stipulated, has become disenchanted with Moore, I have to say that that's an incredibly poor and ridiculously reductive reading of the work.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:49 AM on September 22, 2017
I'll stand by that. I've studied Kabbalah; he last thing I needed was to have naked Alan Moore personally hijack the comic to give the Cartoon History of the Occult. He made the entire story, the entire main character about his theory of magic for 3/4ths of the comic. And the whole setup was extremely creepy in a "Dear Journal of Kabbalah Studies, you would not believe what happened to me..." way.
posted by happyroach at 11:45 AM on September 22, 2017
posted by happyroach at 11:45 AM on September 22, 2017
I have to be honest with you: your writing style gives me a migraine and your ideas are just too off-base for me to grapple with. It's fine to not like Moore, it's fine to say his work is sexist, but your ideas of what constitute sexism -- i.e., that Promethea is sexist because it's about magic -- are just so outlandish to me that I feel like I don't even understand what words mean after reading your terrible comments. I would love to have a serious conversation about elements of Moore's work that I find troublesome or symptomatic of outdated thought, but I really do not want to have it with you, because I find you unfathomable
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:23 PM on September 22, 2017
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:23 PM on September 22, 2017
I've studied Kabbalah; he last thing I needed was to have naked Alan Moore personally hijack the comic to give the Cartoon History of the Occult.
Aside from the ridiculous notion that Jack Faust was some sort of Mary Sue for Moore (Mary Sues are supposed to be self-flattering; Faust was anything but), you have to ask yourself why you read the comic when it became apparent--which was fairly early on in the run--that Moore had intentions for it that went beyond Promethea being a Wonder Woman expy. I agree with kfb, you're being more than a little ax-grindy here.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:12 PM on September 22, 2017
Aside from the ridiculous notion that Jack Faust was some sort of Mary Sue for Moore (Mary Sues are supposed to be self-flattering; Faust was anything but), you have to ask yourself why you read the comic when it became apparent--which was fairly early on in the run--that Moore had intentions for it that went beyond Promethea being a Wonder Woman expy. I agree with kfb, you're being more than a little ax-grindy here.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:12 PM on September 22, 2017
OK, really simply: Promethea is sexist because in order to come into her real power, the woman has to have sex with expy Alan Moore, and then HE spends the majority of the rest of the comic expounding on HIS philosophy. The whole comic, her whole story becomes a vehicle for him to lecture us. Also, it's not just the latest Promethea- repeatedly throughout history Promethea has to have sex in order to have knowledge and power.
If people cannot see why that is problematic, then I honestly don't know what to say. Maybe they don't see anything wrong with "Elizabethtown" either. At a certain point I think it's pointless to have a conversation about sexism with comic fans who are deliberately blind to sexism in the medium when it comes to their favorite artists.
posted by happyroach at 2:05 AM on September 24, 2017
If people cannot see why that is problematic, then I honestly don't know what to say. Maybe they don't see anything wrong with "Elizabethtown" either. At a certain point I think it's pointless to have a conversation about sexism with comic fans who are deliberately blind to sexism in the medium when it comes to their favorite artists.
posted by happyroach at 2:05 AM on September 24, 2017
« Older Sci-Fi Roots of the Far Right | The future is African, and it's wearing Maki Oh. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by entropicamericana at 5:44 PM on September 20, 2017 [34 favorites]