Ghost Hotels and 21st Century Flophouses
February 2, 2018 9:18 AM Subscribe
The High Cost Of Short Term Rentals In NYC (PDF) A 3 year study by McGill University on the effects on Airbnb in NYC came to some startling conclusions. Among them: Top 10% of hosts get 48% of revenue - In predominately black neighborhoods, hosts are 5 times more likely to be white - Airbnb has increased median rents by $380- 4,700 ‘ghost hotels’ set up to avoid regulation and remove long term rentals from the market.
Move Fast And Break Regulations that the public forgot were important.
posted by little onion at 9:24 AM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by little onion at 9:24 AM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Thanks for posting this. Now the next time someone casually posts in AskMe that they're coming to NYC to stay in an AirBnB but are afraid they might experience some moderate inconvenience, I can just link to this instead of explaining again and again why it's bad to come visit a place in a way that specifically and directly screws over its working class.
It's like all those regulations that places like NYC had on short term rentals actually served a purpose.
Those regulations still exist.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 AM on February 2, 2018 [23 favorites]
It's like all those regulations that places like NYC had on short term rentals actually served a purpose.
Those regulations still exist.
posted by praemunire at 9:46 AM on February 2, 2018 [23 favorites]
Top 10% of hosts get 48% of revenue
Well, that sucks, but I kind of expect that. I wonder...
Airbnb has increased median rents by $380
Well fuck THAT.
In predominately black neighborhoods, hosts are 5 times more likely to be white
And fuck that IN PARTICULAR.
What are the options for enforcement, and for clawing back some of this revenue? I’m...I mean, look, I am a flinty-eyed, ambitious self-employed person who enjoys making lots of money when I am able. And I am feeling very guillotine-y.
If the state can seize poor people’s property for no fucking reason, we can sure as shit seize AirBnB’s assets for really good reasons.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:54 AM on February 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
Well, that sucks, but I kind of expect that. I wonder...
Airbnb has increased median rents by $380
Well fuck THAT.
In predominately black neighborhoods, hosts are 5 times more likely to be white
And fuck that IN PARTICULAR.
What are the options for enforcement, and for clawing back some of this revenue? I’m...I mean, look, I am a flinty-eyed, ambitious self-employed person who enjoys making lots of money when I am able. And I am feeling very guillotine-y.
If the state can seize poor people’s property for no fucking reason, we can sure as shit seize AirBnB’s assets for really good reasons.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:54 AM on February 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
All found that Airbnb took approximately 20% of vacancies off the market in certain Manhattan and Brooklyn zip codes, and up to 28% in the East Village neighborhood, even though it is technically illegal to rent an entire unit for fewer than 30 days in most buildings. Overall, they estimated that the 20 neighborhoods most popular on Airbnb have lost 10% of rental units (NYCC and RAFA 2015).
Jesus Christ. Those numbers are staggering.
posted by holborne at 9:56 AM on February 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Jesus Christ. Those numbers are staggering.
posted by holborne at 9:56 AM on February 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
I am really, really torn about this and freely admit that I'm working at hypocritical purposes.
* On the one hand, if I didn't have AirBnB as an option when I travel, I would have a way harder time affording to travel. Thus far i've been using it most in other countries. ....Also - AirBnB is how some dear friends make their living. They own three rental properties outside the city, and also occasionally rent out their own Brooklyn apartment - but they always make sure they stay weil on the side of legal when they do, confining it to 5-weeks-and-over stays. Without that income, they wouldn't be able to afford to live in New York at all.
* On the other hand, the price raising the report is talking about is part of why we're all unable to afford to live in New York easily.
However - it seems that it's a small handful at the top that is doing most of the damage with the "ghost hotels", as opposed to the "struggling couple sublets their space for a month and a half when they travel for work" kind of setups. If there's a way AirBnB could target the people at the top (maybe a limit on the number of listings a person can have in a single city? Proof of ownership?) that might help.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 AM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
* On the one hand, if I didn't have AirBnB as an option when I travel, I would have a way harder time affording to travel. Thus far i've been using it most in other countries. ....Also - AirBnB is how some dear friends make their living. They own three rental properties outside the city, and also occasionally rent out their own Brooklyn apartment - but they always make sure they stay weil on the side of legal when they do, confining it to 5-weeks-and-over stays. Without that income, they wouldn't be able to afford to live in New York at all.
* On the other hand, the price raising the report is talking about is part of why we're all unable to afford to live in New York easily.
However - it seems that it's a small handful at the top that is doing most of the damage with the "ghost hotels", as opposed to the "struggling couple sublets their space for a month and a half when they travel for work" kind of setups. If there's a way AirBnB could target the people at the top (maybe a limit on the number of listings a person can have in a single city? Proof of ownership?) that might help.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 AM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
I would have a way harder time affording to travel
I was listening to a New Books Network podcast the other day where they were talking about relative vs experienced income inequality. the interviewee made it clear that even though someone thinks they're relatively not well-off because they can't afford to send, for example, their child to a private academy
an extreme example but, in context, the difference between say being able to afford to travel vs being able to afford to keep a roof over your head is a very different thing
They own three rental properties outside the city, and also occasionally rent out their own Brooklyn apartment - but they always make sure they stay weil on the side of legal when they do, confining it to 5-weeks-and-over stays. Without that income, they wouldn't be able to afford to live in New York at all.
they own four properties including an apartment in Brooklyn where the median cost of owning a property is 770k? this is the kind of mindset that both justifies and make moral the act of gentrification and displacement even in light of all the reports about housing injustice
posted by runt at 10:15 AM on February 2, 2018 [95 favorites]
I was listening to a New Books Network podcast the other day where they were talking about relative vs experienced income inequality. the interviewee made it clear that even though someone thinks they're relatively not well-off because they can't afford to send, for example, their child to a private academy
an extreme example but, in context, the difference between say being able to afford to travel vs being able to afford to keep a roof over your head is a very different thing
They own three rental properties outside the city, and also occasionally rent out their own Brooklyn apartment - but they always make sure they stay weil on the side of legal when they do, confining it to 5-weeks-and-over stays. Without that income, they wouldn't be able to afford to live in New York at all.
they own four properties including an apartment in Brooklyn where the median cost of owning a property is 770k? this is the kind of mindset that both justifies and make moral the act of gentrification and displacement even in light of all the reports about housing injustice
posted by runt at 10:15 AM on February 2, 2018 [95 favorites]
If there's a way AirBnB could target the people at the top (maybe a limit on the number of listings a person can have in a single city? Proof of ownership?) that might help.
One, it would be hard to really target the people at the top, since they have the money and justification to game the system. It's a game of whack a mole.
Two, there's no incentive for AirBnB to do so, because these people are their moneymakers. (Call this the Logan Paul problem - how do you convince an entity to police the people who drive revenue?)
In the end, this shows why cities have regulations restricting short term rentals - because they have a number of negative effects on the city.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:20 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
One, it would be hard to really target the people at the top, since they have the money and justification to game the system. It's a game of whack a mole.
Two, there's no incentive for AirBnB to do so, because these people are their moneymakers. (Call this the Logan Paul problem - how do you convince an entity to police the people who drive revenue?)
In the end, this shows why cities have regulations restricting short term rentals - because they have a number of negative effects on the city.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:20 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
an extreme example but, in context, the difference between say being able to afford to travel vs being able to afford to keep a roof over your head is a very different thing
The fact that I'm talking about not affording to travel as opposed to talking about not affording to rent doesn't negate the fact that not affording to travel is still a problem. Especially since one of the reasons I'm not able to afford hotels is because of my rent.
Also, shaming people for daring to want to afford quality life experiences for themselves is pretty shitty. It smacks of telling me that if I can't afford to travel then I should just eat my gruel and live in sack cloth and cut out the avocado toast or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:25 AM on February 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
The fact that I'm talking about not affording to travel as opposed to talking about not affording to rent doesn't negate the fact that not affording to travel is still a problem. Especially since one of the reasons I'm not able to afford hotels is because of my rent.
Also, shaming people for daring to want to afford quality life experiences for themselves is pretty shitty. It smacks of telling me that if I can't afford to travel then I should just eat my gruel and live in sack cloth and cut out the avocado toast or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:25 AM on February 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
(psst it's actually an annual rent increase of $380 and a monthly rent increase of $31)
I feel like part of me doesn't understand why this is so goddamn hard to enforce. These listings are public. You can go on AirBnB right now and find those homes. Ok, the city attorney is busy doing [static noises] [question marks] [animal sounds] but allow a private attorney general mechanism to these regs and the Legal Aid Society would sweep through them like the wrath of God.
posted by peppercorn at 10:30 AM on February 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
I feel like part of me doesn't understand why this is so goddamn hard to enforce. These listings are public. You can go on AirBnB right now and find those homes. Ok, the city attorney is busy doing [static noises] [question marks] [animal sounds] but allow a private attorney general mechanism to these regs and the Legal Aid Society would sweep through them like the wrath of God.
posted by peppercorn at 10:30 AM on February 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
It smacks of telling me that if I can't afford to travel then I should just eat my gruel and live in sack cloth and cut out the avocado toast or something.
yeah, I'm not interested in playing into this vapid form of Oppression Olympics especially not when your referenced 'poor' activity is an expensive luxury even for most of the middle class. what I am interested in is:
posted by runt at 10:32 AM on February 2, 2018 [71 favorites]
yeah, I'm not interested in playing into this vapid form of Oppression Olympics especially not when your referenced 'poor' activity is an expensive luxury even for most of the middle class. what I am interested in is:
• Across all 72 predominantly Black New York City neighborhoods, Airbnb hosts are 5 times more likely to be white. In those neighborhoods, the Airbnb host population is 74% white, while the white resident population is only 14%.if this shit, this new age of segregation and redlining doesn't make you seethe in fury - if you are instead more inclined to write apologia for your landlord friends then absolutely, 100% you are both complicit in and benefiting from white supremacy as it presents itself in the 21st century
• White Airbnb hosts in Black neighborhoods earned an estimated $160 million, compared to only $48 million for Black hosts—a 530% disparity.
• The loss of housing and neighborhood disruption due to Airbnb is 6 times more likely to affect Black residents, based on their majority presence in Black neighborhoods, as residents in these neighborhoods are 14% white and 80% Black.
posted by runt at 10:32 AM on February 2, 2018 [71 favorites]
I feel like part of me doesn't understand why this is so goddamn hard to enforce.
Because when you do try to enforce it, AirBnB fights you in the court of public opinion, putting up the faces of the homeowners adding a little extra revenue from an additional room and the people who are using their service to travel.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:35 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Because when you do try to enforce it, AirBnB fights you in the court of public opinion, putting up the faces of the homeowners adding a little extra revenue from an additional room and the people who are using their service to travel.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:35 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
The fix for this won't be easy, since we have an administration that doesn't want to cut into business profits. Without that, a solid FBI investigation could easily subpoena Airbnb's records and turn up proof that Airbnb goes out of its way to evade local laws.
To get vicious about making the point, they could go after the coders who work on the software, esp the ones who do data analysis and recommend new advertising targets--it wouldn't take many arrests to have techies fleeing the company. (Most coders are just doing their jobs, but I bet they could find some who are actively looking for exploitative routes.)
Arresting the CEO & other high-ups would also be good, but less effective for killing the company - they'll swap out executives in an instant, but once the company gets a rep for "coders get busted for working here," they're sunk.
Since that's a vague fantasy under the current gov't (and "tell the president that Airbnb is what's ruining his hotel business" isn't likely to get them involved), that leaves individual actions. Local law enforcement could easily set up stings--it's whack-a-mole catching/fining one or two at a time, but it wouldn't take many to make other property owners nervous. And neighbors dealing with a ghost hotel can find various ways to make their stay unpleasant. Bonus points for finding ways to make the rental unpleasant (and therefore get lower reviews or demands for refunds) without doing anything that would be "wrong" in a normal neighborhood, like welcome parties. ("I see you just moved into this apartment! I'll bring the team by at six with a casserole!")
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:36 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
To get vicious about making the point, they could go after the coders who work on the software, esp the ones who do data analysis and recommend new advertising targets--it wouldn't take many arrests to have techies fleeing the company. (Most coders are just doing their jobs, but I bet they could find some who are actively looking for exploitative routes.)
Arresting the CEO & other high-ups would also be good, but less effective for killing the company - they'll swap out executives in an instant, but once the company gets a rep for "coders get busted for working here," they're sunk.
Since that's a vague fantasy under the current gov't (and "tell the president that Airbnb is what's ruining his hotel business" isn't likely to get them involved), that leaves individual actions. Local law enforcement could easily set up stings--it's whack-a-mole catching/fining one or two at a time, but it wouldn't take many to make other property owners nervous. And neighbors dealing with a ghost hotel can find various ways to make their stay unpleasant. Bonus points for finding ways to make the rental unpleasant (and therefore get lower reviews or demands for refunds) without doing anything that would be "wrong" in a normal neighborhood, like welcome parties. ("I see you just moved into this apartment! I'll bring the team by at six with a casserole!")
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:36 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
To get vicious about making the point, they could go after the coders who work on the software, esp the ones who do data analysis and recommend new advertising targets--it wouldn't take many arrests to have techies fleeing the company. (Most coders are just doing their jobs, but I bet they could find some who are actively looking for exploitative routes.)
Arresting the CEO & other high-ups would also be good, but less effective for killing the company - they'll swap out executives in an instant, but once the company gets a rep for "coders get busted for working here," they're sunk.
You do know about the corporate veil, right? It would be impossible to go after workers for corporate malfeasance, and this is a good thing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:54 AM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Arresting the CEO & other high-ups would also be good, but less effective for killing the company - they'll swap out executives in an instant, but once the company gets a rep for "coders get busted for working here," they're sunk.
You do know about the corporate veil, right? It would be impossible to go after workers for corporate malfeasance, and this is a good thing.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:54 AM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Part of what’s frustrating about this is that New York has successfully fought off the “disruption” goblin before, in the form of Uber/Lyft. Ridesharing services are as a whole much more expensive (and safer) in NYC than in the rest of the country because New York requires that rideshare drivers hold valid taxi licenses, with the same regulations and checks as any other vehicle-for-hire driver. Lots of other localities have similar laws on the books and Uber just ignores them and puts anyone with a phone and a car on the road, though. The difference is that New York enforces those laws; when Uber tried to expand UberX in to NY the attorney general made it clear that they would sue them in to a smoldering hole in the ground for trying. They backed off, and eventually landed on the current system.
In light of that, it’s really frustrating that there hasn’t been the same kind of high-level pushback against AirBnb.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:54 AM on February 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
In light of that, it’s really frustrating that there hasn’t been the same kind of high-level pushback against AirBnb.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:54 AM on February 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
These days, the word "disruption" has my hand sliding over my wallet.
Reaching for a freshly-sharpened pitchfork is more proactive.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:55 AM on February 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Reaching for a freshly-sharpened pitchfork is more proactive.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:55 AM on February 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Arresting the CEO & other high-ups would also be good, but less effective for killing the company - they'll swap out executives in an instant, but once the company gets a rep for "coders get busted for working here," they're sunk.
You do know about the corporate veil, right? It would be impossible to go after workers for corporate malfeasance, and this is a good thing.
I’m legitimately shocked that anyone in the year of our lord 2018 would actually try to say “forget the executives, we should really be going after the rank-and-file workers”. I just can’t wrap my head around every way a statement like that is fucked up, wow.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:56 AM on February 2, 2018 [18 favorites]
You do know about the corporate veil, right? It would be impossible to go after workers for corporate malfeasance, and this is a good thing.
I’m legitimately shocked that anyone in the year of our lord 2018 would actually try to say “forget the executives, we should really be going after the rank-and-file workers”. I just can’t wrap my head around every way a statement like that is fucked up, wow.
posted by Itaxpica at 10:56 AM on February 2, 2018 [18 favorites]
In light of that, it’s really frustrating that there hasn’t been the same kind of high-level pushback against AirBnb.
housing justice folks are busier dealing with developers turning everything into unaffordable luxury condos than this though this report does signal that, at least in NYC, there needs to be more focus on forcing AirBnB to at least release their data transparently
seems like it would be easy to boycott the whole enterprise but I don't think I know a single person who's willing to give up the luxury of being able to rent an entire home instead of paying more to live in the spare bedrooms that make up most hotels and motels. a minor, normative luxury for the devastation of entire groups of people seems very much yet more evidence to Arendt's banality of evil
posted by runt at 11:15 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
housing justice folks are busier dealing with developers turning everything into unaffordable luxury condos than this though this report does signal that, at least in NYC, there needs to be more focus on forcing AirBnB to at least release their data transparently
seems like it would be easy to boycott the whole enterprise but I don't think I know a single person who's willing to give up the luxury of being able to rent an entire home instead of paying more to live in the spare bedrooms that make up most hotels and motels. a minor, normative luxury for the devastation of entire groups of people seems very much yet more evidence to Arendt's banality of evil
posted by runt at 11:15 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
So, AirBnB itself has considerable legal immunity under Section 230 (i.e., they are treated like newspapers running ads rather than a company renting out its own properties). That means it's much more difficult to go after them than after the hosts. Which does turn into a game of whack-a-mole.
posted by praemunire at 11:20 AM on February 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 11:20 AM on February 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
psst it's actually an annual rent increase of $380 and a monthly rent increase of $31
Wow; that "annually" is really kind of buried. It doesn't show up until Section 4. I don't know if this was meant to be deceptive, but it certainly comes off like it was. When someone says "my rent went up by $x", I certainly assume they're talking about their monthly rent.
Also, it would be nice if they had included errors or confidence intervals or something.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:22 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Wow; that "annually" is really kind of buried. It doesn't show up until Section 4. I don't know if this was meant to be deceptive, but it certainly comes off like it was. When someone says "my rent went up by $x", I certainly assume they're talking about their monthly rent.
Also, it would be nice if they had included errors or confidence intervals or something.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:22 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I wasn't thinking - eep. Get subpoenas for coders and get them to testify about company policies designed to evade local laws, to seek out areas that are vulnerable to creating ghost hotels, and so on. Find some whistleblowers and let them testify anonymously.
they are treated like newspapers running ads rather than a company renting out its own properties
Yeah, and Uber is just a communications software business. Are there newspaper listings that take a commission of the sale value from their classifieds instead of a flat fee based on advertising features (word count, size, page placement, etc.)?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:32 AM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
they are treated like newspapers running ads rather than a company renting out its own properties
Yeah, and Uber is just a communications software business. Are there newspaper listings that take a commission of the sale value from their classifieds instead of a flat fee based on advertising features (word count, size, page placement, etc.)?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:32 AM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Are there newspaper listings that take a commission of the sale value from their classifieds instead of a flat fee based on advertising features (word count, size, page placement, etc.)?
Internet advertising often works on a per-view or per-click model... This is how Google AdWords works, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 11:37 AM on February 2, 2018
Internet advertising often works on a per-view or per-click model... This is how Google AdWords works, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 11:37 AM on February 2, 2018
I’m legitimately shocked that anyone in the year of our lord 2018 would actually try to say “forget the executives, we should really be going after the rank-and-file workers”. I just can’t wrap my head around every way a statement like that is fucked up, wow.
Yeah, this is fucked up in a "enjoy California permanently becoming a Red state" way. You know all those techbros buying $2M condos in SF? Imagine them dumping their money into Congressional races to make sure their chosen profession doesn't land them in prison.
I'm a pretty liberal software developer, but I'll definitely be voting against anyone trying to put me in jail.
posted by sideshow at 11:40 AM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, this is fucked up in a "enjoy California permanently becoming a Red state" way. You know all those techbros buying $2M condos in SF? Imagine them dumping their money into Congressional races to make sure their chosen profession doesn't land them in prison.
I'm a pretty liberal software developer, but I'll definitely be voting against anyone trying to put me in jail.
posted by sideshow at 11:40 AM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
In light of that, it’s really frustrating that there hasn’t been the same kind of high-level pushback against AirBnb.
Uber/Lyft was sort of the perfect storm of pushback-potential due to the safety issues (even the unlicensed cabs around here exist in something resembling an accountability ecosystem compared to the "some guy's car+faceless multinational corporation" aspect of Uber/Lyft) and the industry threat to a very powerful and politically connected industry.
I genuinely don't think a goddamn thing is going to be done about AirBNB in NYC until the hotels gets scared like the cab companies did and start to flex against the real estate owners and there's a lot of overlap in that particular, wealthy and extremely powerful venn diagram.
posted by griphus at 11:41 AM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Uber/Lyft was sort of the perfect storm of pushback-potential due to the safety issues (even the unlicensed cabs around here exist in something resembling an accountability ecosystem compared to the "some guy's car+faceless multinational corporation" aspect of Uber/Lyft) and the industry threat to a very powerful and politically connected industry.
I genuinely don't think a goddamn thing is going to be done about AirBNB in NYC until the hotels gets scared like the cab companies did and start to flex against the real estate owners and there's a lot of overlap in that particular, wealthy and extremely powerful venn diagram.
posted by griphus at 11:41 AM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, and Uber is just a communications software business.
OK, so the Communications Decency Act safe harbor is not just some wild-eyed invention of industry shills. It's a very real legal concept that serves some very important purposes in preserving free speech on the Internet. Is it too much to hope that before you scoff at an explanation of a legal claim, you learn about it?
posted by praemunire at 11:41 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
OK, so the Communications Decency Act safe harbor is not just some wild-eyed invention of industry shills. It's a very real legal concept that serves some very important purposes in preserving free speech on the Internet. Is it too much to hope that before you scoff at an explanation of a legal claim, you learn about it?
posted by praemunire at 11:41 AM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Is it too much to hope that before you scoff at an explanation of a legal claim, you learn about it?
A lot of us do know about CDA 230 and the utterly tech-ignorant Batzel ruling that basically has given online services blanket indemnification, which has made things like online harassment and revenge porn difficult to combat because we can't hold people accountable for intentionally turning a blind eye to it being distributed through their services. Also, the EFF's free speech absolutist stance has made them near useless in fighting online harassment - which is a pretty major threat to free speech when you consider how it chills the voices of the dispossessed who are disproportionately the targets of it.
Perhaps you shouldn't assume that we haven't thought much about the topic.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:31 PM on February 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
A lot of us do know about CDA 230 and the utterly tech-ignorant Batzel ruling that basically has given online services blanket indemnification, which has made things like online harassment and revenge porn difficult to combat because we can't hold people accountable for intentionally turning a blind eye to it being distributed through their services. Also, the EFF's free speech absolutist stance has made them near useless in fighting online harassment - which is a pretty major threat to free speech when you consider how it chills the voices of the dispossessed who are disproportionately the targets of it.
Perhaps you shouldn't assume that we haven't thought much about the topic.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:31 PM on February 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
Also, the point they were making was that Uber refused to acknowledge that they were a livery service operating online until the European Court of Justice called them out on it a few months back.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:34 PM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:34 PM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I’m legitimately shocked that anyone in the year of our lord 2018 would actually try to say “forget the executives, we should really be going after the rank-and-file workers”.
I agree, but this kind of information does make me wonder why software design doesn’t have some form of professional liability similar to doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects etc. If software is designed and implemented to break the law, somebody within the company made the decision to design and implement, likely a highly educated, highly paid someone who is getting lots of reward and no risk.
posted by q*ben at 12:36 PM on February 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
I agree, but this kind of information does make me wonder why software design doesn’t have some form of professional liability similar to doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects etc. If software is designed and implemented to break the law, somebody within the company made the decision to design and implement, likely a highly educated, highly paid someone who is getting lots of reward and no risk.
posted by q*ben at 12:36 PM on February 2, 2018 [12 favorites]
Wow; that "annually" is really kind of buried. It doesn't show up until Section 4. I don't know if this was meant to be deceptive, but it certainly comes off like it was. When someone says "my rent went up by $x", I certainly assume they're talking about their monthly rent.
I agree, especially since the norm in New York and everywhere else I've lived in the US is absolutely to quote apartment rent on a monthly basis (as opposed to say, London, where it's often quoted on a weekly basis).
The majority of New Yorkers who read that line in the executive summary that rent went up $380 will read it as $380/month, not the actual amount of $32/month, especially since there are unfortunately cases in which people's rent shoots up by several hundred dollars (or more) at the time of lease renewal.
posted by andrewesque at 12:52 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I agree, especially since the norm in New York and everywhere else I've lived in the US is absolutely to quote apartment rent on a monthly basis (as opposed to say, London, where it's often quoted on a weekly basis).
The majority of New Yorkers who read that line in the executive summary that rent went up $380 will read it as $380/month, not the actual amount of $32/month, especially since there are unfortunately cases in which people's rent shoots up by several hundred dollars (or more) at the time of lease renewal.
posted by andrewesque at 12:52 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I agree, but this kind of information does make me wonder why software design doesn’t have some form of professional liability similar to doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects etc. If software is designed and implemented to break the law, somebody within the company made the decision to design and implement, likely a highly educated, highly paid someone who is getting lots of reward and no risk.
Because your "someone" is really like 3-4 different roles, minimum. And the "somebody within the company made the decision" is almost never the person doing the actual work.
Also, the companies that would have the most to lose by treating us engineers like doctors/lawyers have the better part of a trillion Dollars in the bank, so that's the reason there won't be any changes.
posted by sideshow at 1:17 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Because your "someone" is really like 3-4 different roles, minimum. And the "somebody within the company made the decision" is almost never the person doing the actual work.
Also, the companies that would have the most to lose by treating us engineers like doctors/lawyers have the better part of a trillion Dollars in the bank, so that's the reason there won't be any changes.
posted by sideshow at 1:17 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
> Im a pretty liberal software developer, but Ill definitely be voting against anyone trying to put me in jail.With any sort of response like this, I guess the question you should be pondering is Am I doing work that should put me in jail?
posted by cardioid at 1:17 PM on February 2, 2018 [19 favorites]
And a follow-up of How is what I do different from others who do end up in jail, or who should be there?
posted by cardioid at 1:29 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by cardioid at 1:29 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Ack. As a frequent traveler to big cities who also lives in a big city with an absurd rental market, I'm really, really hesitant to try AirBnB, even though everyone I know constantly recommends it. I just can't in good conscience do it, especially when there's no way to know for certain that the host is definitely following all pertinent local regulations, and that what they are doing isn't making their neighbors uncomfortable and unhappy, and that it isn't gradually destroying the neighborhood. I'm in my mid-thirties and a light sleeper, but I still wind up in a bunk in a hostel more often than not because of it. I'd rather need earplugs and have my luggage pick up that weird hostel-y foot stank than wonder the whole time if I'm destroying the local housing market. Probably a weird place to draw the line, considering I use Lyft periodically.
posted by bowtiesarecool at 1:35 PM on February 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by bowtiesarecool at 1:35 PM on February 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
Ah, yes, the "Nothing to Hide" argument.
But in any case, I apologize for my derail. There really isn't much reason to discuss jailing software developers since it's something that will never happen.
posted by sideshow at 1:36 PM on February 2, 2018
But in any case, I apologize for my derail. There really isn't much reason to discuss jailing software developers since it's something that will never happen.
posted by sideshow at 1:36 PM on February 2, 2018
Really the only way to fight AirBnb is to gently ask your neighbors to please stop renting out their space on AirBNB. Explain that you have concerns about the safety implications of letting random strangers into the building, and you're also concerned about "guests" bringing in bedbugs with them -- a real problem in NYC!
Or you could just rat out your neighbors to the landlord, but you'd only want to do that if you had enough plausible deniability that they wouldn't know it was you.
Personally I've got no real sympathy for anyone in my building who rents their space out on AirBNB. To them, the safety of myself and my belongings is merely an externality. Fuck 'em.
posted by panama joe at 2:26 PM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Or you could just rat out your neighbors to the landlord, but you'd only want to do that if you had enough plausible deniability that they wouldn't know it was you.
Personally I've got no real sympathy for anyone in my building who rents their space out on AirBNB. To them, the safety of myself and my belongings is merely an externality. Fuck 'em.
posted by panama joe at 2:26 PM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
Airbnb deliberately does an absolutely terrible job of self-policing their inventory except in cases where cities/regulations force them to do so. I was renting out my place as a standard rental when I was out of the country for a year. When I discovered my renters were subletting one of the rooms (pet friendly! smoker friendly!) and contacted Airbnb, they diverted me to a first line of customer support which was handled by "superfans" and after repeated calls and emails never gave me any response beyond "the listing has been removed".
It's also notable that they decided not to IPO this year despite claiming to be profitable and growing. Seems like a strange decision. They face no significant competitors that aren't public already and they have many long term employees that certainly want to cash out.
posted by ejoey at 2:42 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's also notable that they decided not to IPO this year despite claiming to be profitable and growing. Seems like a strange decision. They face no significant competitors that aren't public already and they have many long term employees that certainly want to cash out.
posted by ejoey at 2:42 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Perhaps you shouldn't assume that we haven't thought much about the topic.
If one is, in fact, aware of the relevant jurisprudence (a person who thinks that the collection of commissions has a bearing on the applicability of the safe harbor isn't, sorry), it's fairly clear why enforcement agencies aren't going after AirBnB proper in the United States. Enforcement agencies unfortunately do not (at least in a functioning system) get to unilaterally decide that they just don't like the controlling law and so they're going to pursue targets almost certainly immune under that law. Hence, you get enforcement actions directed largely against individual "hosts," who are clearly breaking the law, which inevitably run into resource constraints.
(Perhaps this is getting off-topic, but: Have fun trying to amend section 230 in a way that doesn't immediately expose marginalized populations or opinions to all sorts of legal liability. Section 230 doesn't require Facebook or Twitter not to give a damn about threats; it just means they're not directly legally liable for what other people say. Given the way they enforce their content policies now, if they felt they had that kind of liability, they'd be taking that policy whereby they're letting vaguely polite Nazis post and shutting down the Jews telling them they'd better go eff themselves and crank it up to 11. Trump would be suing them every day.)
posted by praemunire at 2:54 PM on February 2, 2018
If one is, in fact, aware of the relevant jurisprudence (a person who thinks that the collection of commissions has a bearing on the applicability of the safe harbor isn't, sorry), it's fairly clear why enforcement agencies aren't going after AirBnB proper in the United States. Enforcement agencies unfortunately do not (at least in a functioning system) get to unilaterally decide that they just don't like the controlling law and so they're going to pursue targets almost certainly immune under that law. Hence, you get enforcement actions directed largely against individual "hosts," who are clearly breaking the law, which inevitably run into resource constraints.
(Perhaps this is getting off-topic, but: Have fun trying to amend section 230 in a way that doesn't immediately expose marginalized populations or opinions to all sorts of legal liability. Section 230 doesn't require Facebook or Twitter not to give a damn about threats; it just means they're not directly legally liable for what other people say. Given the way they enforce their content policies now, if they felt they had that kind of liability, they'd be taking that policy whereby they're letting vaguely polite Nazis post and shutting down the Jews telling them they'd better go eff themselves and crank it up to 11. Trump would be suing them every day.)
posted by praemunire at 2:54 PM on February 2, 2018
I don't live there anymore, but seeing what AirBnB has done to New Orleans makes me incredibly angry. I will not stay in AirBnB whenever I am in a big city because I've seen how badly it fucks over the monthly rental market, in a city that was already hard up for affordable housing after Katrina. A friend of mine who lives there just got his eviction notice, and he very strongly suspects his landlord is about to AirBnB-fy his place.
posted by mostly vowels at 3:09 PM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by mostly vowels at 3:09 PM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
As someone who hates hotels (esp the neighborhoods they are usually in) but also cares about my city, I'd really like to see laws that target ghost hotels (which also suck to stay in) but allow real people to rent their places say 60 days per year. To me that would do a lot to alleviate the cons without forcing us back into hotels.
posted by dame at 3:47 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by dame at 3:47 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
(Perhaps this is getting off-topic, but: Have fun trying to amend section 230 in a way that doesn't immediately expose marginalized populations or opinions to all sorts of legal liability. Section 230 doesn't require Facebook or Twitter not to give a damn about threats; it just means they're not directly legally liable for what other people say. Given the way they enforce their content policies now, if they felt they had that kind of liability, they'd be taking that policy whereby they're letting vaguely polite Nazis post and shutting down the Jews telling them they'd better go eff themselves and crank it up to 11. Trump would be suing them every day.)
Huh? There are a lot of places we could roll back Batzel's overly broad blanket without it being a threat to free speech online. For one, we could make it that if you set up a website designed to abuse the blanket to get around other laws, then that blanket no longer protects you.
I get that free speech absolutists are primed to jump down the slippery slope whenever someone suggests that perhaps protections are a bit overly broad, but given how that's worked out so far, I'm thinking that rethinking things is in order.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:49 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Huh? There are a lot of places we could roll back Batzel's overly broad blanket without it being a threat to free speech online. For one, we could make it that if you set up a website designed to abuse the blanket to get around other laws, then that blanket no longer protects you.
I get that free speech absolutists are primed to jump down the slippery slope whenever someone suggests that perhaps protections are a bit overly broad, but given how that's worked out so far, I'm thinking that rethinking things is in order.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:49 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
As someone who hates hotels (esp the neighborhoods they are usually in) but also cares about my city, I'd really like to see laws that target ghost hotels (which also suck to stay in) but allow real people to rent their places say 60 days per year. To me that would do a lot to alleviate the cons without forcing us back into hotels.
The ghost hotels would find ways around it - they have resources and the reason to rules lawyer this thing as far as necessary. The core problem is that we've granted the key bad actor indemnity on this, so they have no reason to clean up their act. Either we remove that indemnification, or there won't be any real solution to the problem.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:09 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
The ghost hotels would find ways around it - they have resources and the reason to rules lawyer this thing as far as necessary. The core problem is that we've granted the key bad actor indemnity on this, so they have no reason to clean up their act. Either we remove that indemnification, or there won't be any real solution to the problem.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:09 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Do the same ethical issues apply to people renting a portion of their house? e.g. I stayed in some guy's guest bedroom while he was there, and in someone else's basement while they were upstairs. Both were freestanding houses that they owned. (Nowhere near either coast, just wondering as a general principle.)
posted by AFABulous at 4:33 PM on February 2, 2018
posted by AFABulous at 4:33 PM on February 2, 2018
I'm curious if anyone in the hotel industry has a solid plan to take on Airbnb. Airbnb has always marketed itself about offering unique experiences, etc., but as others have indirectly said on this thread, their main draw is really just cheap rooms.
Smartphones, laptops and the internet have just so dramatically changed what many travelers need in terms of space-taking things hotels provide for free (TVs, alarm clocks, concierge service, even writing desks) and things they've charged a pretty penny for (movies+porn, long distance calling, food delivery). If a hotel chain finds a way to compete with Airbnb on price, they'll win a lot of travelers back.
posted by smelendez at 5:07 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Smartphones, laptops and the internet have just so dramatically changed what many travelers need in terms of space-taking things hotels provide for free (TVs, alarm clocks, concierge service, even writing desks) and things they've charged a pretty penny for (movies+porn, long distance calling, food delivery). If a hotel chain finds a way to compete with Airbnb on price, they'll win a lot of travelers back.
posted by smelendez at 5:07 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
AirBnB "competes on price" the same way Uber et al. do - ignoring regulations and relying on undercutting labor. That's why hotels aren't as flexible with price.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:25 PM on February 2, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:25 PM on February 2, 2018 [22 favorites]
AirBnB "competes on price" the same way Uber et al. do - ignoring regulations and relying on undercutting labor. That's why hotels aren't as flexible with price.
If uber were the same price as traditional taxi services, people would still prefer uber (or at least lyft, which isn't a misogynist cesspool that we know of). The rage people have toward taxi companies is on par with any partisan hatred, and if you look at threads on mefi from several years back that came up consistently as a "yeah but" argument when discussing uber 's exploitative business model.
People don't hate the hotel industry on the whole but as smelendez noted their business model is in part dated. I think the competitive model might be something like what I've seen in fancier hostels that have cropped up over the past 15 years - some of them have private rooms, but it's basically just a bed, wifi access, bathrooms are shared, and there's a kitchen and common area to hang out if you want. That mimics the "cheaper" air bnb's I've rented in the bay area where I'm renting out one bedroom in a house with other people living in and or/ renting it.
posted by MillMan at 6:02 PM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
If uber were the same price as traditional taxi services, people would still prefer uber (or at least lyft, which isn't a misogynist cesspool that we know of). The rage people have toward taxi companies is on par with any partisan hatred, and if you look at threads on mefi from several years back that came up consistently as a "yeah but" argument when discussing uber 's exploitative business model.
People don't hate the hotel industry on the whole but as smelendez noted their business model is in part dated. I think the competitive model might be something like what I've seen in fancier hostels that have cropped up over the past 15 years - some of them have private rooms, but it's basically just a bed, wifi access, bathrooms are shared, and there's a kitchen and common area to hang out if you want. That mimics the "cheaper" air bnb's I've rented in the bay area where I'm renting out one bedroom in a house with other people living in and or/ renting it.
posted by MillMan at 6:02 PM on February 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
The reasons that Uber/Lyft and AirBnB took off were cost but also because almost anyone who travels has had terrible experiences with regular taxis and hotels, as well as paying a lot for them. The travel industry, in general, can feel set up to extract as much money as possible from you at as many points as possible, and so yeah, there's a bit of feeling that you're sticking it to those fuckers who won't even let you log onto the internet without paying 20 bucks a day.
I don't argue that AirBnB has bad effects, at all. But it tapped into a deep dissatisfaction with hotel stays and travel in general.
posted by emjaybee at 6:27 PM on February 2, 2018
I don't argue that AirBnB has bad effects, at all. But it tapped into a deep dissatisfaction with hotel stays and travel in general.
posted by emjaybee at 6:27 PM on February 2, 2018
If Uber was the same price as regular taxis, it would never have gotten traction. There's a reason that Uber is subsidizing rides significantly to this day, and why they (along with other online livery services) are pushing to ban private ownership of autonomous vehicles in cities.
(And if you've noticed, in more recent Uber threads, the "yeah, but" argument has gotten less and less as people have begun to realize they just traded one problematic vendor for an even more problematic one.)
As for hotels, I'd point out that the primary audience that most hotels are going after are business travelers, who are definitely not going to be interested in a barebones hostel experience. (This, by the way, is what I imagine winds up being the disconnect for many casual travelers with hotels - they tend to not realize that, with the exception of places like resort hotels, they're really not the primary clientele for hotels.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:08 PM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
(And if you've noticed, in more recent Uber threads, the "yeah, but" argument has gotten less and less as people have begun to realize they just traded one problematic vendor for an even more problematic one.)
As for hotels, I'd point out that the primary audience that most hotels are going after are business travelers, who are definitely not going to be interested in a barebones hostel experience. (This, by the way, is what I imagine winds up being the disconnect for many casual travelers with hotels - they tend to not realize that, with the exception of places like resort hotels, they're really not the primary clientele for hotels.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:08 PM on February 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
cardioid: "With any sort of response like this, I guess the question you should be pondering is Am I doing work that should put me in jail?"
I've been thinking of this for a few hours now and I'm kinda torn. On one side punishing the employees for the sins of the business really rubs me the wrong way because of the power imbalance. And on the other I'd lose my trade ticket for using it in some illegal ways and I really don't have a problem with that (actually think we should be more aggressive in policing these violations).
smelendez: "I'm curious if anyone in the hotel industry has a solid plan to take on Airbnb. Airbnb has always marketed itself about offering unique experiences, etc., but as others have indirectly said on this thread, their main draw is really just cheap rooms."
It's amazing what you can do when you side step a bunch of taxes associated with business zoning, business charges for water and sewer, avoiding the costs of ADA compliance and the reduced capital and maintenance costs associated with properties build for home owners instead of businesses etc.etc.
posted by Mitheral at 7:20 PM on February 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
I've been thinking of this for a few hours now and I'm kinda torn. On one side punishing the employees for the sins of the business really rubs me the wrong way because of the power imbalance. And on the other I'd lose my trade ticket for using it in some illegal ways and I really don't have a problem with that (actually think we should be more aggressive in policing these violations).
smelendez: "I'm curious if anyone in the hotel industry has a solid plan to take on Airbnb. Airbnb has always marketed itself about offering unique experiences, etc., but as others have indirectly said on this thread, their main draw is really just cheap rooms."
It's amazing what you can do when you side step a bunch of taxes associated with business zoning, business charges for water and sewer, avoiding the costs of ADA compliance and the reduced capital and maintenance costs associated with properties build for home owners instead of businesses etc.etc.
posted by Mitheral at 7:20 PM on February 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
Also, the last time I paid for internet access was when I stayed at a resort hotel in Vegas, which is why I usually look to stay at business-class hotels, even when traveling casually - because that sort of thing is something that business travelers won't put up with.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:21 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:21 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't actually care about the cost of hotels, in general. I care about being in a house with amenities and windows that open, in neighborhoods with pleasant restaurants that aren't bad-quality ghost towns. I like to see what it is like to be a person in a place and not a quarantined traveller.
We actually have a whole system now for inspecting AirBnB listings to see if they are real homes, because the ghost ones suck. (Best indicator: lots of real books on slightly overburdened shelves.)
posted by dame at 7:30 PM on February 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
We actually have a whole system now for inspecting AirBnB listings to see if they are real homes, because the ghost ones suck. (Best indicator: lots of real books on slightly overburdened shelves.)
posted by dame at 7:30 PM on February 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
When I want to travel cheaply, I
- stay in a hostel
- book a student residence room (off term, of course)
- look for cheap non-chain hotels - stayed in a nice one in Paris for less than a hostel. Spartan but clean
- camp in a tent - my parents-in-law regularly toured Europe in their 50s and often stayed at camp grounds
none of these involve renting a whole apartment at premium that renters can't afford.
We all are responsible for our actions as consumers. None of us are perfect - I know I've bought slave-grown chocolate, excess plastic packaging, all manner of terrible things. But I'm still responsible for my consumption choices - and I chose not to consume anything in the "sharing" - really exploiting - economy. These companies all flaunt regulations - and provide cheaper goods and services by screwing the poor.
posted by jb at 8:56 PM on February 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
- stay in a hostel
- book a student residence room (off term, of course)
- look for cheap non-chain hotels - stayed in a nice one in Paris for less than a hostel. Spartan but clean
- camp in a tent - my parents-in-law regularly toured Europe in their 50s and often stayed at camp grounds
none of these involve renting a whole apartment at premium that renters can't afford.
We all are responsible for our actions as consumers. None of us are perfect - I know I've bought slave-grown chocolate, excess plastic packaging, all manner of terrible things. But I'm still responsible for my consumption choices - and I chose not to consume anything in the "sharing" - really exploiting - economy. These companies all flaunt regulations - and provide cheaper goods and services by screwing the poor.
posted by jb at 8:56 PM on February 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
the last time I paid for internet access was when I stayed at a resort hotel in Vegas, which is why I usually look to stay at business-class hotels, even when traveling casually - because that sort of thing is something that business travelers won't put up with.
you've got it backwards there. Business travellers on expense accounts don't care about excess fees. That's why the fancy Hilton in downtown San Diego charges for internet - but the lovely (and not at all fancy) Best Western outside downtown doesn't.
posted by jb at 8:58 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
you've got it backwards there. Business travellers on expense accounts don't care about excess fees. That's why the fancy Hilton in downtown San Diego charges for internet - but the lovely (and not at all fancy) Best Western outside downtown doesn't.
posted by jb at 8:58 PM on February 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Do the same ethical issues apply to people renting a portion of their house? e.g. I stayed in some guy's guest bedroom while he was there, and in someone else's basement while they were upstairs
staying is a spare room isn't an issue - the person was never going to rent that as someone's home. This is the traditional B&B model.
the problem is when entire, self-contained units that could have been long-term rental go for short-term instead. It takes units off the long-term market.
posted by jb at 9:06 PM on February 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
Disturbing study—and as already noted, badly summarized. There are points I would like more info about and/or deserving of some nitpicking (e.g. the percent rent increase seems in keeping with inflation), but I don't doubt the overall findings re the wealth gains being concentrated among a relative few and that white folks are benefiting from a business model that's detrimental to black neighborhoods. In theory, some of these issues could be addressed by cracking down on illegal practices, but we all know that's not likely to happen, given that we're living in a time when many (perhaps most?) of our fellow citizens think gov't needs to get out of "the regulation business". (Boggles the mind, I know.)
This remark from above raised some interesting issues for me:
Further, many people work for horrible companies simply because there is no other option. And as consumers, we can try to make ethical choices, but good luck finding one that is fair to the masses without being prohibitively expensive.
In short, most of us are doing things that in the best of all possible worlds would be prohibited.
I'll stop here. I have no answers and I'm bumming myself out.
posted by she's not there at 10:58 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
This remark from above raised some interesting issues for me:
I guess the question you should be pondering is Am I doing work that should put me in jail?At the risk of seeming like my head is stuck in an undergrad Marx class, the very nature of capitalism is exploitive. So, (an example from above) most coders looking for a market—especially those working for a large company/someone else—are virtually by definition actively looking for exploitative route. An individual may refuse the job, but someone else will happily take it simply because there are so many people who are OK with the system.
Further, many people work for horrible companies simply because there is no other option. And as consumers, we can try to make ethical choices, but good luck finding one that is fair to the masses without being prohibitively expensive.
In short, most of us are doing things that in the best of all possible worlds would be prohibited.
I'll stop here. I have no answers and I'm bumming myself out.
posted by she's not there at 10:58 PM on February 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
AirBnB "competes on price" the same way Uber et al. do - ignoring regulations and relying on undercutting labor. That's why hotels aren't as flexible with price.
This is as much a problem as the rental price increases and can affect many of the same people, hitting them on both sides, making it more expensive to rent while undercutting jobs and wages in an industry that relies heavily on an immigrant work force, with ESL women being a major part of that group.
"Disruption" as AirBnB practices it is a systemic problem and there is some real contradictions involved in supporting that model while doing things like supporting immigration, raising the minimum wage, and seeking better regulations for things from ADA compliance to zoning laws, valuing unions, and support of using taxes to pay for local services, for which hotels often pay a higher share, all of which can have a major effect on hotel pricing. This isn't even noting the increased use of third party vendors who insert their business models between the guest and hotels which also "disrupt" pricing and earnings for hotels to increasingly costly effect.
Hotels require a significant labor that must be paid for at whatever rate holds for the local area, with much of the country seeing wages close to the minimum while bigger cities and tourist areas can be significantly higher, but still tend to be closer to the lower end of of hourly wages than the higher end for most workers outside of some union areas. That coupled with the ever increasing expectation for free amenities like full heated breakfasts, van service, and top quality internet and television is adding costs to the hotels while the disruptive business schemes are taking business from them. This is resulting in a lot of hotels needing to either cut costs or raise prices, but they're constrained by the disruption taking business without having to deal with the added costs.
The expectation that things should be getting ever cheaper while we demand ever more and expect, somehow, workers to get better pay is unsustainable and the social cost of it all will be borne most by those who can ill afford it.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:35 AM on February 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
This is as much a problem as the rental price increases and can affect many of the same people, hitting them on both sides, making it more expensive to rent while undercutting jobs and wages in an industry that relies heavily on an immigrant work force, with ESL women being a major part of that group.
"Disruption" as AirBnB practices it is a systemic problem and there is some real contradictions involved in supporting that model while doing things like supporting immigration, raising the minimum wage, and seeking better regulations for things from ADA compliance to zoning laws, valuing unions, and support of using taxes to pay for local services, for which hotels often pay a higher share, all of which can have a major effect on hotel pricing. This isn't even noting the increased use of third party vendors who insert their business models between the guest and hotels which also "disrupt" pricing and earnings for hotels to increasingly costly effect.
Hotels require a significant labor that must be paid for at whatever rate holds for the local area, with much of the country seeing wages close to the minimum while bigger cities and tourist areas can be significantly higher, but still tend to be closer to the lower end of of hourly wages than the higher end for most workers outside of some union areas. That coupled with the ever increasing expectation for free amenities like full heated breakfasts, van service, and top quality internet and television is adding costs to the hotels while the disruptive business schemes are taking business from them. This is resulting in a lot of hotels needing to either cut costs or raise prices, but they're constrained by the disruption taking business without having to deal with the added costs.
The expectation that things should be getting ever cheaper while we demand ever more and expect, somehow, workers to get better pay is unsustainable and the social cost of it all will be borne most by those who can ill afford it.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:35 AM on February 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
(And if you've noticed, in more recent Uber threads, the "yeah, but" argument has gotten less and less as people have begun to realize they just traded one problematic vendor for an even more problematic one.)
I kind of feel MF overall culture segregates for like-mindedness. I find the uber hate to be mildly absurd, and have made it known and explained why in several threads. But a very attractive bandwagon for the typical mefite to riff on. I have a feeling the MF frequent flyers are more driven to riff on the favorite topics.
Back on topic, once again, I'm not seeing that this is such a huge deal here. It resembles, to me, the real issue being more along the lines of gentrification. Rental units in traditional minority neighborhoods are finding renewed life as "ghost hotels". Seemingly driving up demand, and prices, though the framing in the OP is pretty bullshitty, and it looks like the prices aren't being driven up as badly as it seems.
The bigger, more difficult issue is that of the very nature of being a renter. In most places, living in a dwelling that you do not own puts one, to a certain extent, at the mercy of a variety of factors far out of one's control. Up to and including being priced out of your neighborhood. In some ways, the renter is always at perilous mercy of the landlord, relying on benevolence, or even indifference, just to enjoy an acceptable quality of life. Rent controls can alleviate some problems, but rent control is fraught with its own set of perverse incentives.
And while the "disruption" argument is also a popular MF hobby horse, I find it to be a matter of perspective, here. Government regulations at least theoretically forbidding services such as uber and Airbnb, and even rent control, are also disruption. But regulators gotta regulate, so we should all comply, to promote good citizenship, or something.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:51 AM on February 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
I kind of feel MF overall culture segregates for like-mindedness. I find the uber hate to be mildly absurd, and have made it known and explained why in several threads. But a very attractive bandwagon for the typical mefite to riff on. I have a feeling the MF frequent flyers are more driven to riff on the favorite topics.
Back on topic, once again, I'm not seeing that this is such a huge deal here. It resembles, to me, the real issue being more along the lines of gentrification. Rental units in traditional minority neighborhoods are finding renewed life as "ghost hotels". Seemingly driving up demand, and prices, though the framing in the OP is pretty bullshitty, and it looks like the prices aren't being driven up as badly as it seems.
The bigger, more difficult issue is that of the very nature of being a renter. In most places, living in a dwelling that you do not own puts one, to a certain extent, at the mercy of a variety of factors far out of one's control. Up to and including being priced out of your neighborhood. In some ways, the renter is always at perilous mercy of the landlord, relying on benevolence, or even indifference, just to enjoy an acceptable quality of life. Rent controls can alleviate some problems, but rent control is fraught with its own set of perverse incentives.
And while the "disruption" argument is also a popular MF hobby horse, I find it to be a matter of perspective, here. Government regulations at least theoretically forbidding services such as uber and Airbnb, and even rent control, are also disruption. But regulators gotta regulate, so we should all comply, to promote good citizenship, or something.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:51 AM on February 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
2N2222, what’s your point? Beyond Metafilter —> eye roll, that is?
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 7:32 AM on February 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 7:32 AM on February 3, 2018 [10 favorites]
My wife and I suspect that a number of the brownstones on our street in Bed-Stuy are being used as Air BnB's. We suspect this, because in this African American/Afro-Caribbean neighborhood, we see a revolving cast of white Europeans coming into and out of the buildings (often with luggage in tow). Ironically, we happen to live on a street with the nation's most renowned black-owned B&B, Akwaaba Mansion. It's really shitty to set up your fly-by-night, unlicensed (white-owned), B&B right beside the real damn thing.
posted by anansi at 7:54 AM on February 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by anansi at 7:54 AM on February 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
I find the uber hate to be mildly absurd, and have made it known and explained why in several threads.
Please, tell me why it's absurd to detest a company that believes that it shouldn't be regulated at all, balances its books on the backs of its workers, engages in unethical practices (like, for example, illegally acquiring the medical records of a rape victim because the executives think her claims are just an attempt by competitors to go after them), and is clearly positioning itself to control a monopoly position as the endgame (see their push to make private ownership of urban autonomous vehicles illegal.)
If you think hating Uber is absurd, you aren't paying attention.
Rental units in traditional minority neighborhoods are finding renewed life as "ghost hotels".
No, these units are not "finding renewed life". As has been pointed out over and over, there is no glut of rental units (which is the only way this statement would make any sense) - most cities are actually seeing pretty significant shortages of rental stock. So what's happening is not unused rental housing being repurposed, but long term renters being shoved out because landlords find it more profitable to run a 21st century flophouse than actually rent to the people who live in the area.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:21 AM on February 3, 2018 [15 favorites]
Please, tell me why it's absurd to detest a company that believes that it shouldn't be regulated at all, balances its books on the backs of its workers, engages in unethical practices (like, for example, illegally acquiring the medical records of a rape victim because the executives think her claims are just an attempt by competitors to go after them), and is clearly positioning itself to control a monopoly position as the endgame (see their push to make private ownership of urban autonomous vehicles illegal.)
If you think hating Uber is absurd, you aren't paying attention.
Rental units in traditional minority neighborhoods are finding renewed life as "ghost hotels".
No, these units are not "finding renewed life". As has been pointed out over and over, there is no glut of rental units (which is the only way this statement would make any sense) - most cities are actually seeing pretty significant shortages of rental stock. So what's happening is not unused rental housing being repurposed, but long term renters being shoved out because landlords find it more profitable to run a 21st century flophouse than actually rent to the people who live in the area.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:21 AM on February 3, 2018 [15 favorites]
This just seems to me like not rocket science, although I think it's very important to have studies like this that document the damage and show exactly who is being hurt. But this is just a straight-up issue of supply and demand. There is limited supply of housing in New York. In other cities, you can argue that the limited supply of housing is due to development-unfriendly policies, but in New York it's mostly due to geography. So there's a limited supply of housing, and there aren't a lot of opportunities to provide more housing units. When housing units get taken off of the residential market, either because they're being converted into de-facto hotels or because they're being used as investment properties by out-of-town rich people, that decreases supply, and that increases prices. And that's inevitably going to drive people out of the market, because they whole point of increasing prices is that it decreases demand until you reach equilibrium.
So basically, New Yorkers have to decide whether they want housing policy that benefits landlords, tourists, and out-of-town rich people but drives some New Yorkers out of the market or whether they want housing policy that benefits people who live in New York. If it were me, I would be ruthlessly cracking down on AirBnB and instituting a really high tax on unoccupied investment properties, but it's not me, partly because I couldn't afford to live in New York.
And I actually think that subletting, like the people who occasionally rent out their own apartment for five weeks, is a different thing. I don't think the housing market gets disrupted by people who go out of town for two months every summer and sublet their apartment to people who are coming to the city for summer jobs. To me, that's still a residential property, and subletting can be part of a healthy housing economy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:52 AM on February 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
So basically, New Yorkers have to decide whether they want housing policy that benefits landlords, tourists, and out-of-town rich people but drives some New Yorkers out of the market or whether they want housing policy that benefits people who live in New York. If it were me, I would be ruthlessly cracking down on AirBnB and instituting a really high tax on unoccupied investment properties, but it's not me, partly because I couldn't afford to live in New York.
And I actually think that subletting, like the people who occasionally rent out their own apartment for five weeks, is a different thing. I don't think the housing market gets disrupted by people who go out of town for two months every summer and sublet their apartment to people who are coming to the city for summer jobs. To me, that's still a residential property, and subletting can be part of a healthy housing economy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:52 AM on February 3, 2018 [12 favorites]
I think the rise of these also has to do with the great recession. Building of all types stopped including hotels and now there aren't enough rooms. Also, Orlando has more hotel rooms than NYC, as it officially gets more visitors than NYC or LA. But the rise of these types of add-on hotels shows that probably isn't true. These places haven't really cut into traditional hotels' vacancy numbers so they have no need to try to compete on price.
Hotels also have an insane number of local regulations which determine where they are located. It's really gotten quite insane. A hotel with a fitness area for example is subjected to the same regulations as a legitimate, dedicated gym, and those regulations govern how many can be built in a certain area, not that they need to be inspected for safety once built or whatever.
I've not looked at the numbers for NYC, but in Los Angeles the number for hotel/air B&B tax is separated out and is now about 50% of sales tax as a revenue source and growing faster and is approximately the #4 or #5 revenue source for the city. No way cities are going to be doing anything to hurt that number.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:03 AM on February 5, 2018
Hotels also have an insane number of local regulations which determine where they are located. It's really gotten quite insane. A hotel with a fitness area for example is subjected to the same regulations as a legitimate, dedicated gym, and those regulations govern how many can be built in a certain area, not that they need to be inspected for safety once built or whatever.
I've not looked at the numbers for NYC, but in Los Angeles the number for hotel/air B&B tax is separated out and is now about 50% of sales tax as a revenue source and growing faster and is approximately the #4 or #5 revenue source for the city. No way cities are going to be doing anything to hurt that number.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:03 AM on February 5, 2018
Re Uber: for hire driver commits sucidide in front of city hall, blames Uber and city taxi comission. The Taxi union says this is the 3rd such suicide in 3 months
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 AM on February 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 AM on February 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have NO DOUBT that this has a big effect in a few places like NYC, Barcelona, New Orleans. But it is a mistake to think that it is a significant effect in many, or even most, cities in driving up rents in what are/were mostly poorer, minority neighborhoods. I live (near) Wash DC. Searching, I can find 5000 Airbnb full-unit rentals in the entire city. Meanwhile, the city allows about 5000 new apartments to be built each year, almost all of which are pushing into and rapidly gentrifying African American neighborhoods. Minorities are getting pushed out of this city and I really don't think AirBnb is the big reason why. I see the same thing happening in my hometown of Cincinnati, where minorities ore quickly getting pushed out of areas like Over the Rhine. There are 145 Airbnb rental in the neighborhood, which sounds significant until you look at how many rentals and entire buildings are getting bought by outsiders and made into fancy homes and condos. AirBnb has an effect, but I think it needs to be way lower on the list of concerns than the commercial developers. In many places (like Chattanooga, where I looked for an AirbNB recently), there are few AirBnbs and even fewer half-way decent hotels that have been renovated since 1960. I use and appreciate AirBnb, just not in places like NYC.
posted by mkuhnell at 8:08 AM on February 10, 2018
posted by mkuhnell at 8:08 AM on February 10, 2018
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These days, the word "disruption" has my hand sliding over my wallet.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:23 AM on February 2, 2018 [35 favorites]