Who kills Bambi?
February 20, 2018 5:01 AM Subscribe
‘People think the deer are lovely. Then they learn more about it’: the deer cull dilemma. The Scottish Highlands have a deer problem. Is shooting tens of thousands of them the only solution?
I kid, of course. This is a complicated issue. Seems like things could be done, but also can't be done.
I hope they figure it out. Deer are vermin. (As well as being delicious.)
posted by hippybear at 5:07 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
I hope they figure it out. Deer are vermin. (As well as being delicious.)
posted by hippybear at 5:07 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
To them, flying in by helicopter simply feels wrong, like cheating. So does leaving carcasses to rot. So does taking too many in one go.
One million food bank users in the UK. One million. And they're letting venison rot on a hillside. Criminal.
posted by Dysk at 5:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [24 favorites]
One million food bank users in the UK. One million. And they're letting venison rot on a hillside. Criminal.
posted by Dysk at 5:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [24 favorites]
As a lifelong hunter and daily/weekly venison eater, I'll be glad to come over and help the Scots deal with this problem.
For those not aware, I suggest you Google: Hunters for the Hungry.
posted by bwvol at 5:46 AM on February 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
For those not aware, I suggest you Google: Hunters for the Hungry.
posted by bwvol at 5:46 AM on February 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
Is there not something like Hunters for the Hungry in the UK? It seems like a pretty good solution to me. Unless there's widespread CWD/CJD in the deer population, which would make them unfit to eat (and probably also not good to leave around for other animals to eat, either, since animals tend to not cook their meat thoroughly, or at all).
I have heard of some programs that involve shooting does with darts full of long-lasting contraceptive at the beginning of the rutting season (basically, deer Depo-Provera) to slow their reproductive rate, but that of course takes a full season to have any effect, and there are practical issues—how do you make sure you haven't dosed the same deer twice? That's harder the more deer you have, since it's more difficult to identify them by appearance within an area.
There have been some good programs managing both cat and rat populations using food-based contraceptives, but for it to work you basically have to get the population eating provided food more or less exclusively, at least to my understanding. That's not hard with rats or cats, which strongly prefer food provided by humans if it's available, but I'm not sure how that would work for herbivores—I could totally see the deer ignoring Deer Chow in favor of someone's petunias if the mood struck them.
Probably a combination of a lethal cull to get the population down to a manageable size, followed by a contraceptive program using either darts or some other type of delivery mechanism would be a good long-term solution.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:55 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have heard of some programs that involve shooting does with darts full of long-lasting contraceptive at the beginning of the rutting season (basically, deer Depo-Provera) to slow their reproductive rate, but that of course takes a full season to have any effect, and there are practical issues—how do you make sure you haven't dosed the same deer twice? That's harder the more deer you have, since it's more difficult to identify them by appearance within an area.
There have been some good programs managing both cat and rat populations using food-based contraceptives, but for it to work you basically have to get the population eating provided food more or less exclusively, at least to my understanding. That's not hard with rats or cats, which strongly prefer food provided by humans if it's available, but I'm not sure how that would work for herbivores—I could totally see the deer ignoring Deer Chow in favor of someone's petunias if the mood struck them.
Probably a combination of a lethal cull to get the population down to a manageable size, followed by a contraceptive program using either darts or some other type of delivery mechanism would be a good long-term solution.
posted by Kadin2048 at 5:55 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
One million food bank users in the UK. One million. And they're letting venison rot on a hillside. Criminal.
I would be surprised if getting that meat to where the people are and having it inspected for safety didn't cost more than just buying them meat on the market.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:07 AM on February 20, 2018 [22 favorites]
I would be surprised if getting that meat to where the people are and having it inspected for safety didn't cost more than just buying them meat on the market.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:07 AM on February 20, 2018 [22 favorites]
Just fucking eat it, like. I'm not advocating taking the venison to a foodbank necessarily, just doing something with it rather than letting it rot. It's the fact of waste that's unethical in the context of a country where people are starving, not the lack of having given it to the poor.
posted by Dysk at 6:09 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:09 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Surely a better solution would be to reintroduce wolves to the area.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:10 AM on February 20, 2018 [32 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:10 AM on February 20, 2018 [32 favorites]
Surely a better solution would be to reintroduce wolves to the area.
I suspect the 6.57 million sheep in Scotland would disagree.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:13 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
I suspect the 6.57 million sheep in Scotland would disagree.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:13 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
Surely a better solution would be to reintroduce wolves to the area.
Wolves can also be a pest, as farmers are quick to point out.
posted by Beholder at 6:14 AM on February 20, 2018
Wolves can also be a pest, as farmers are quick to point out.
posted by Beholder at 6:14 AM on February 20, 2018
I'm generally in favor of wolves. My fursona is a wolf.
posted by hippybear at 6:14 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:14 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
It's the fact of waste that's unethical in the context of a country where people are starving, not the lack of having given it to the poor.
Having well-off people eat venison we know they don't want to eat while the number of starving people remains utterly unchanged is ethical?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:18 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Having well-off people eat venison we know they don't want to eat while the number of starving people remains utterly unchanged is ethical?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:18 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
My area has been having a coyote problem this year. They're everywhere and have already killed two dogs in town. A lot of people (not me) want the town to "take care of them" but there's not too much that can be done. Perhaps we can put some of them on a Carnival Cruise line and send them over to Scotland? Win-win!
posted by bondcliff at 6:18 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by bondcliff at 6:18 AM on February 20, 2018
I have this conversation at least once a year with someone I meet who is new to Iowa. They always comment on how charming all the deer are and how they have deer just wander into their backyard and it's so lovely and they think I'm a whacko when I saw that Deer are the Rats of Iowa City. Ugh, they are the worst, they are everywhere, they cause tons of terrible accidents, the spread a bunch of nasty diseases and they eat gardens and crops. They are vermin. They will be culled, if not by a hunter than by your car.
I am in favor of eating more deer but the recent deer I've had has been pretty bad. I've noticed a big different in flavor from deer hunted with buckshot and with bow and arrow and I think it's due to the differences in adrenaline rush from the two injuries but maybe I'm just having romantic biases for bows and arrows.
posted by Lutoslawski at 6:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [11 favorites]
I am in favor of eating more deer but the recent deer I've had has been pretty bad. I've noticed a big different in flavor from deer hunted with buckshot and with bow and arrow and I think it's due to the differences in adrenaline rush from the two injuries but maybe I'm just having romantic biases for bows and arrows.
posted by Lutoslawski at 6:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [11 favorites]
When I lived in Sedona it was common knowledge that all cats were indoor cats because if they were let out they'd become coyote food.
Sometimes humans (and their pets) have to adjust to the natural world in which they live.
Still, deer are vermin. Especially when they have no predators to keep their numbers down.
posted by hippybear at 6:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Sometimes humans (and their pets) have to adjust to the natural world in which they live.
Still, deer are vermin. Especially when they have no predators to keep their numbers down.
posted by hippybear at 6:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I wonder, do anthro/furry sadists dress up as hunters?
Unexpected eroticism.
Those of you who come from hunting cultures may not understand how much push-back you'll get trying to feed poor people wild deer - in fact, it sounds pretty offensive. The vast majority of UK citizens would refuse it if offered.
posted by Leon at 6:24 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Unexpected eroticism.
Those of you who come from hunting cultures may not understand how much push-back you'll get trying to feed poor people wild deer - in fact, it sounds pretty offensive. The vast majority of UK citizens would refuse it if offered.
posted by Leon at 6:24 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
A lot of the Highlands is sheep farm/profitable grouse moors/tourist destination. Wolves eat sheep, eat grouse, make tourists nervous, and selfishly don't spend any money while they're doing it. Wolf reintroduction is therefore merely a distant dream. Probably lynx as well although they should surely have a better chance, being smaller and having those cute ears. Enough of our birds of prey get shot when they look for lunch on grouse moors; hard to imagine apex predators being welcomed.
On preview: totally happy to take your coyotes, will swap you with some of those fecking grouse.
posted by Catseye at 6:24 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
On preview: totally happy to take your coyotes, will swap you with some of those fecking grouse.
posted by Catseye at 6:24 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
I had some friends here in eastern WA who wanted to have a garden and they eventually built a completely caged in space, all sides and even the top, because even though they lived right in town the deer were eating everything.
Deer are like mice but we don't tolerate wolves and if we bred cats large enough to deal with them they'd be illegal.
posted by hippybear at 6:25 AM on February 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
Deer are like mice but we don't tolerate wolves and if we bred cats large enough to deal with them they'd be illegal.
posted by hippybear at 6:25 AM on February 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
Having well-off people eat venison we know they don't want to eat while the number of starving people remains utterly unchanged is ethical?
Rather than buying food from shops that will get marked down dramatically and possibly given away to said foodbanks if it remains unsold as it hits the best before date? Yes, absolutely.
posted by Dysk at 6:28 AM on February 20, 2018
Rather than buying food from shops that will get marked down dramatically and possibly given away to said foodbanks if it remains unsold as it hits the best before date? Yes, absolutely.
posted by Dysk at 6:28 AM on February 20, 2018
Deer are like mice but we don't tolerate wolves and if we bred cats large enough to deal with them they'd be illegal.
Cats large enough to eat deer are called cougars, and they are hunted as well. My understanding is that cougars are native to the Americas, but possibly there were other big cats historically in the UK?
A lot of areas in the US, especially in the east and midwest, are dealing with out of control deer populations, particularly since deer do well in suburban environments where there are plenty of garden plants and no hunting pressure. What is strikingly different about Scotland, as discussed in the article, is that the open land is mostly owned by a small number of wealthy landowners, putting decisions about and implementation of deer management into the hands of a small group.
Ecologically it would be great if they could reintroduce predators, but as noted above this would create conflicts with other land uses (e.g., sheep). And since the land is largely private and often managed for profit (e.g., guided trophy hunting), one of the main deer management tools used in the US, adjusting regulations to increase sport hunting by the public, isn't going to be relevant.
From the article, the main tool they have available is culling, but to have a significant impact it would have to be dramatically increased. Deer populations can rebound quickly, so the culling would need to stay higher over time.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:41 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Cats large enough to eat deer are called cougars, and they are hunted as well. My understanding is that cougars are native to the Americas, but possibly there were other big cats historically in the UK?
A lot of areas in the US, especially in the east and midwest, are dealing with out of control deer populations, particularly since deer do well in suburban environments where there are plenty of garden plants and no hunting pressure. What is strikingly different about Scotland, as discussed in the article, is that the open land is mostly owned by a small number of wealthy landowners, putting decisions about and implementation of deer management into the hands of a small group.
Ecologically it would be great if they could reintroduce predators, but as noted above this would create conflicts with other land uses (e.g., sheep). And since the land is largely private and often managed for profit (e.g., guided trophy hunting), one of the main deer management tools used in the US, adjusting regulations to increase sport hunting by the public, isn't going to be relevant.
From the article, the main tool they have available is culling, but to have a significant impact it would have to be dramatically increased. Deer populations can rebound quickly, so the culling would need to stay higher over time.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:41 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Those of you who come from hunting cultures may not understand how much push-back you'll get trying to feed poor people wild deer - in fact, it sounds pretty offensive. The vast majority of UK citizens would refuse it if offered.
From Indiana. I don't understand this comment at all, and would appreciate further explanation. I don't doubt it, I just don't understand what would be considered offensive. What's wrong with venison?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:41 AM on February 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
From Indiana. I don't understand this comment at all, and would appreciate further explanation. I don't doubt it, I just don't understand what would be considered offensive. What's wrong with venison?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:41 AM on February 20, 2018 [18 favorites]
On preview: totally happy to take your coyotes, will swap you with some of those fecking grouse.
You guys do have foxes. Too small to hunt deer, but they do go for grouse.
posted by fraula at 6:42 AM on February 20, 2018
You guys do have foxes. Too small to hunt deer, but they do go for grouse.
posted by fraula at 6:42 AM on February 20, 2018
Leon: The vast majority of UK citizens would refuse it if offered.
Really? I mean, I am American, but have spent some time in the U.K., and I wouldn't have guessed this. Is it a ...class thing, like if we offered an all-you-can-eat caviar & pheasant under glass buffet, but with nothing else, and you had to wear a tuxedo?
Or is venison just not part of the normal diet? That makes sense in the U.S., too, actually: most Americans have never tasted game like venison, duck, goose, or rabbit.
(Honestly, I am curious, and not trolling here.)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:43 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Really? I mean, I am American, but have spent some time in the U.K., and I wouldn't have guessed this. Is it a ...class thing, like if we offered an all-you-can-eat caviar & pheasant under glass buffet, but with nothing else, and you had to wear a tuxedo?
Or is venison just not part of the normal diet? That makes sense in the U.S., too, actually: most Americans have never tasted game like venison, duck, goose, or rabbit.
(Honestly, I am curious, and not trolling here.)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:43 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Venison is the original farm to table cuisine!
posted by bwvol at 6:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bwvol at 6:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
He spotted an elderly, underweight hind, a prime target, and steeled himself for action
What is Julien's purpose ? If it is herd management, you don't shoot the old/infirm, you shoot the young does. All the young does. That's what manages the herd far more effectively than culling anything else.
posted by k5.user at 6:46 AM on February 20, 2018 [11 favorites]
What is Julien's purpose ? If it is herd management, you don't shoot the old/infirm, you shoot the young does. All the young does. That's what manages the herd far more effectively than culling anything else.
posted by k5.user at 6:46 AM on February 20, 2018 [11 favorites]
On non-preview – I'm in France and don't get the comment on venison push-back either. I've eaten more venison in France than I ever did in Oregon. Plenty of wild game available here when you know where to look, and doesn't seem linked to class.
posted by fraula at 6:47 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by fraula at 6:47 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't understand this comment at all, and would appreciate further explanation.
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out analogies, and they're all coming up short.
Imagine if someone said "we've got a lot of horse carcasses over there, lets feed them to our poors". You wouldn't find that a bit... off?
Deer and rabbit, since WWII, are pets not food. Probably called Bambi and Thumper. You're asking people to eat Thumper because they can't afford anything else.
Lamb, on the other hand, absolutely no problem. Delicious. And I understand that's relatively rare in the US.
Or is venison just not part of the normal diet?
From what I can find, about 20% of people eat venison. A lot of it, ironically, is farmed in China.
posted by Leon at 6:48 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out analogies, and they're all coming up short.
Imagine if someone said "we've got a lot of horse carcasses over there, lets feed them to our poors". You wouldn't find that a bit... off?
Deer and rabbit, since WWII, are pets not food. Probably called Bambi and Thumper. You're asking people to eat Thumper because they can't afford anything else.
Lamb, on the other hand, absolutely no problem. Delicious. And I understand that's relatively rare in the US.
Or is venison just not part of the normal diet?
From what I can find, about 20% of people eat venison. A lot of it, ironically, is farmed in China.
posted by Leon at 6:48 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
If it is herd management, you don't shoot the old/infirm, you shoot the young does. All the young does. That's what manages the herd far more effectively than culling anything else.
Yes. A proven approach to herd management here in the States. This approach also helps maintain good herd genetics by increasing competition among the bucks for mating rights. The stronger, more dominant bucks will be able to breed and pass along good genetics, this ensuring a healthier herd.
posted by bwvol at 6:49 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yes. A proven approach to herd management here in the States. This approach also helps maintain good herd genetics by increasing competition among the bucks for mating rights. The stronger, more dominant bucks will be able to breed and pass along good genetics, this ensuring a healthier herd.
posted by bwvol at 6:49 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Deer and rabbit, since WWII, are pets not food.
Every butcher I've ever been to in the West Midlands - whether they've been fancy upscale places or little village locals - disagrees with you, on both counts.
posted by Dysk at 6:53 AM on February 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
Every butcher I've ever been to in the West Midlands - whether they've been fancy upscale places or little village locals - disagrees with you, on both counts.
posted by Dysk at 6:53 AM on February 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
(And every farmer would suggest you've missed out an s in describing rabbits as pets...)
posted by Dysk at 6:57 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:57 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm British, my sisters live in Britain, there is plenty of venison served for meals. I had venison sausages last time i was visiting: delicious!
posted by dazed_one at 7:00 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by dazed_one at 7:00 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Reintroducing cougars is actually a very good strategy to manage deer overpopulation (in the US). Apex predators are not a panacea to restoring habitat and appropriate populations of herbivores but they do help significantly.
It's a hard problem. Reintroducing wolves in Scotland would benefit the natural environment but harm the agricultural industry. There needs to be compensation for lost sheep/cattle for the farmers to even entertain the idea.
And this is the first I've heard that people in the UK don't eat venison or rabbit, btw. There might be feelings associated with HUNTING deer rather than farming venison but I'm not sure that's got much to do with the meat itself.
posted by lydhre at 7:03 AM on February 20, 2018
It's a hard problem. Reintroducing wolves in Scotland would benefit the natural environment but harm the agricultural industry. There needs to be compensation for lost sheep/cattle for the farmers to even entertain the idea.
And this is the first I've heard that people in the UK don't eat venison or rabbit, btw. There might be feelings associated with HUNTING deer rather than farming venison but I'm not sure that's got much to do with the meat itself.
posted by lydhre at 7:03 AM on February 20, 2018
Recently we've had cougars move (back) into Southeastern Wisconsin; the next nearest wild population is South Dakota. No doubt they were drawn here by the deer. I saw a coyote in the middle of the city a few nights ago. Not really a solution for Scotland, just a general comment. Predators go where the food is, too bad the UK killed 'em all.
posted by AFABulous at 7:04 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by AFABulous at 7:04 AM on February 20, 2018
I'm trying to describe my own culture to people who don't understand it, and they keep saying "Yeah, but..." and offering me "this one time I was in the UK" anecdotes. Can I get some backup from an actual Brit here, please?
The people who are using food banks aren't buying organic meat from twee independent butchers. They're buying processed food from cheap supermarkets, and they're conservative about what they eat. They're not going to take kindly to "let them eat cake^HBambi", however well-meant.
posted by Leon at 7:05 AM on February 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
The people who are using food banks aren't buying organic meat from twee independent butchers. They're buying processed food from cheap supermarkets, and they're conservative about what they eat. They're not going to take kindly to "let them eat cake^HBambi", however well-meant.
posted by Leon at 7:05 AM on February 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
Lamb, on the other hand, absolutely no problem. Delicious. And I understand that's relatively rare in the US.
As an American who lived briefly in the UK, that's totally true and not something I realized until just now. As a result, I just took deep dive on Americans and their relationship to Lamb and Mutton. They've been declining for years, it seems, and been supplanted primarily by more chicken and pork consumption. Apparently, though, there's a special kind of barbecue out of Owensboro, Ky that's based around mutton. It started due to a surplus of sheep because of a tariff in 1816 that made wool production in the Western US suddenly profitable.
Food is so neat.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:06 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
As an American who lived briefly in the UK, that's totally true and not something I realized until just now. As a result, I just took deep dive on Americans and their relationship to Lamb and Mutton. They've been declining for years, it seems, and been supplanted primarily by more chicken and pork consumption. Apparently, though, there's a special kind of barbecue out of Owensboro, Ky that's based around mutton. It started due to a surplus of sheep because of a tariff in 1816 that made wool production in the Western US suddenly profitable.
Food is so neat.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:06 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am in favor of eating more deer but the recent deer I've had has been pretty bad. I've noticed a big different in flavor from deer hunted with buckshot and with bow and arrow and I think it's due to the differences in adrenaline rush from the two injuries but maybe I'm just having romantic biases for bows and arrows.
The quality of the venison you eat is all a matter of the deer's diet, combined with whether proper care was taken with the meat after harvesting and during processing. Older bucks do tend to be a little tougher...younger does will be more tender. No different than beef.
posted by bwvol at 7:06 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
The quality of the venison you eat is all a matter of the deer's diet, combined with whether proper care was taken with the meat after harvesting and during processing. Older bucks do tend to be a little tougher...younger does will be more tender. No different than beef.
posted by bwvol at 7:06 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
People do eat venison and rabbit - there are venison sausages in Sainsburys IIRC, and rabbit and venison are reasonably common in some restaurants - it's just eaten way, way less than beef, lamb, pork, and chicken. What we need is a new popular TV chef to champion (free range! organic! environmentally friendly!) Scottish venison as the Next Big Thing so that there's hugely increased demand for it.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:09 AM on February 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:09 AM on February 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'm trying to describe my own culture to people who don't understand it, and they keep saying "Yeah, but..." and offering me "this one time I was in the UK" anecdotes. Can I get some backup from an actual Brit here, please?
I think the best analogy would be if the US government started dealing with surplus wool sheep by giving out mutton (or goat meat) as part of food assistance. We don't really do mutton, and it would be immediately looked down upon as meat for the poor.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:09 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think the best analogy would be if the US government started dealing with surplus wool sheep by giving out mutton (or goat meat) as part of food assistance. We don't really do mutton, and it would be immediately looked down upon as meat for the poor.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:09 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
Actually having just checked, there's more venison at your average supermarket than I thought - burgers, sausages, mince, casserole, meatballs, and dog food. As for rabbit, you can get diced rabbit meat, but that's it. There's a lot more food for rabbits.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:14 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by EndsOfInvention at 7:14 AM on February 20, 2018
People do eat venison and rabbit - there are venison sausages in Sainsburys IIRC
Less than 20% (probably less for the rabbit).
You know, I think I've eaten kangaroo more times than I've eaten rabbit.
posted by Leon at 7:14 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Less than 20% (probably less for the rabbit).
You know, I think I've eaten kangaroo more times than I've eaten rabbit.
posted by Leon at 7:14 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
This may because I live on the edge of the Highlands, but venison isn't at all rare on menus here and even has a section in our local Tesco right next to duck. My impression is that in the marketing it plays a similar role to beef/pork that duck does to chicken -- a slighly more expensive meat that can be used if you're looking to have a special meal. I suspect that alone might put marketers off selling it cheaply at the supermarket.
Personally it's a meat that I'm a little hesistant to cook, not because of Bambi-reasons, but because it has a reputation of being a bit fiddly to cook correctly.
posted by nangua at 7:15 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Personally it's a meat that I'm a little hesistant to cook, not because of Bambi-reasons, but because it has a reputation of being a bit fiddly to cook correctly.
posted by nangua at 7:15 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
We have SO many deer here in my part of the USA, they are terrible. Everyone I know has hit deer. I have hit two myself. And we are having our own controversies about culling them.
In 2014 I visited Scotland. Their deer are larger than ours, but the main thing that I was amazed by, was how calm they were, and the way they were just hanging around in visible locations in broad daylight. We drove from Glasgow to Skye and saw hundreds of them. Stopped for lunch at a roadside restaurant and they had deer just standing around in the yard in the middle of the day. You could get very close to them and while they would move calmly away from pursuit, they didn't spook. They acted more like cows than deer.
It seems like the Scottish deer should be much easier to cull, than they are here, since they are so calm and they expose themselves in daylight. And easier to avoid hitting them with a car.
posted by elizilla at 7:15 AM on February 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
In 2014 I visited Scotland. Their deer are larger than ours, but the main thing that I was amazed by, was how calm they were, and the way they were just hanging around in visible locations in broad daylight. We drove from Glasgow to Skye and saw hundreds of them. Stopped for lunch at a roadside restaurant and they had deer just standing around in the yard in the middle of the day. You could get very close to them and while they would move calmly away from pursuit, they didn't spook. They acted more like cows than deer.
It seems like the Scottish deer should be much easier to cull, than they are here, since they are so calm and they expose themselves in daylight. And easier to avoid hitting them with a car.
posted by elizilla at 7:15 AM on February 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
I'm a Brit. We grew up eating venison, rabbit, pigeon and whatever else John from next door came home with (one winter, venison was all we bloody ate,that and spuds and carrots). It wasn't until I moved to the city that I even knew that they were considered posh. Nowadays, Asda and Aldi do venison stuff. It's really not that far out there.
At some point, the supermarkets assumed, or were right, that people didn't want wonky veg. Now it's appearing in the supermarkets again and people don't seem to care at all. No reason at all the same wouldn't work with game or offal etc.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:16 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
At some point, the supermarkets assumed, or were right, that people didn't want wonky veg. Now it's appearing in the supermarkets again and people don't seem to care at all. No reason at all the same wouldn't work with game or offal etc.
posted by threetwentytwo at 7:16 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
Nobody has actually advocated "let them eat bambi" (and a lot of people pointing out that rabbit and venison are in fact fairly common food meats here are British)
posted by Dysk at 7:18 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:18 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
(Or well, I've advocated let them eat bambi, but "them" is the rich landowners orchestrating culls, not poor food bank users. I'm sure people who keep game grounds aren't entirely horrified by the idea of eating game.)
posted by Dysk at 7:21 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by Dysk at 7:21 AM on February 20, 2018
I'm another Iowa that doesn't look on deer as an example of majestic nature. I keep trying to garden, and every year I get excited as the pants start to grow. Year one, everything eaten by something. Year two, chicken wire around the garden, everything still eaten by something. Year three, four foot fence around garden with chicken wire at the base. Still eaten. Last year was the first year I managed to get a crop, and I did container gardening on my deck. I live in the city.
And if you've never hit a deer going 70 mph, well, blood and guts everywhere and you are lucky if the deer is the only thing killed or injured.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:23 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
And if you've never hit a deer going 70 mph, well, blood and guts everywhere and you are lucky if the deer is the only thing killed or injured.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:23 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
At my home here in not-particularly-rural North Carolina, I have a yard two blocks from the center of town and basically swamped with deer at all times of day. They're friendly, completely unafraid of humans (one walked right up to me when I was taking the trash out around 9:30am, one literally tried to walk into my basement while I was doing laundry), occasionally endearing (I refer to all of them as "Brenda" and "Don," respective of antlers) and mostly a giant fucking pain in the ass. The deer-proof fencing my neighbors have had to erect to protect their yard gardens has added a weird miniature prison yard aspect to the streets around town. Most of the people I know have suffered at least one major deer-related car accident. And though they give my runs through the park some real Snow White-y pastoral flare, I'm not real fond of hunters (in general) and hunters with guns (in specific) but could do with a significant reduction in population.
posted by thivaia at 7:24 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by thivaia at 7:24 AM on February 20, 2018
On preview: totally happy to take your coyotes
No. You don't.
Coyotes are the worst canid you can have.
They can live in packs.
Or they can live solitary.
They can live close to humans.
Or they can live out in the wilderness.
They can sneak in because you have an unspayed bitch in heat, and you'll find out when a pup bites off your fingers.
Seriously, in the Eastern US we're starting to regret eradicating wolves now that the coyotes arrived to take over the niche.
Oh, and seriously, shooting deer is the most humane thing to do. Either they die of starvation from overgrazing, or they die from predation, or they die in a car crash. A well aimed bullet is the kindest death a deer can have. Shoot them. Eat them.
posted by ocschwar at 7:27 AM on February 20, 2018 [17 favorites]
> Surely a better solution would be to reintroduce wolves to the area.
Were wolves ever native to those parts of Scotland?
Almost everywhere I've lived (mostly around the Great Lakes, currently elsewhere), deer have mostly been pests; moreso in the past few decades as suburban sprawl has done a better job of eliminating deer's predators than farmers ever managed.
But it can be both a highlight of the week to see a small deer pack picking their way through the tree lining between properties, and a frustration to deal with because of how poor a fit they are for this form of coexistence.
posted by ardgedee at 7:28 AM on February 20, 2018
Were wolves ever native to those parts of Scotland?
Almost everywhere I've lived (mostly around the Great Lakes, currently elsewhere), deer have mostly been pests; moreso in the past few decades as suburban sprawl has done a better job of eliminating deer's predators than farmers ever managed.
But it can be both a highlight of the week to see a small deer pack picking their way through the tree lining between properties, and a frustration to deal with because of how poor a fit they are for this form of coexistence.
posted by ardgedee at 7:28 AM on February 20, 2018
It did seem strange that TFA opens with both "wow they are everywhere" and "gotta hunker down and belly crawl through the grass wearing a ghille suit to hunt them." A good deer rifle will hit 150-200 yds away, easily.
thivaia - look into urban archery for your town/county. I live in the suburbs, and can archery hunt (from elevation/tree-stand) in my backyard. No guns. Need to make sure your neighbors are OK with it. All are, because they want to grow stuff w/o all the protective fencing.
posted by k5.user at 7:32 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
thivaia - look into urban archery for your town/county. I live in the suburbs, and can archery hunt (from elevation/tree-stand) in my backyard. No guns. Need to make sure your neighbors are OK with it. All are, because they want to grow stuff w/o all the protective fencing.
posted by k5.user at 7:32 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
> Imagine if someone said "we've got a lot of horse carcasses over there, lets feed them to our poors". You wouldn't find that a bit... off?
Again, I live in Iowa. In the US we literally have herds of horses starving to death and dying in place because of drought. We do a lot of meat slaughter in Iowa, but for some reason they can never get through regulation allowing the slaughter of horses for meat (even for export). So you have a lot of undue suffering by the animals, less employment by people, and presumably higher food costs (less supply).
I don't eat red meat, so perhaps I am biased, but I don't see a difference between a horse and a cow or a pig. Maybe I am pragmatic, or unsentimental, but in an agricultural state that feeds the world, I honestly think we should grow anything the world wants to eat, including food dogs.
And least we forget, at one time, lobster was considered food for poor people.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:32 AM on February 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
Again, I live in Iowa. In the US we literally have herds of horses starving to death and dying in place because of drought. We do a lot of meat slaughter in Iowa, but for some reason they can never get through regulation allowing the slaughter of horses for meat (even for export). So you have a lot of undue suffering by the animals, less employment by people, and presumably higher food costs (less supply).
I don't eat red meat, so perhaps I am biased, but I don't see a difference between a horse and a cow or a pig. Maybe I am pragmatic, or unsentimental, but in an agricultural state that feeds the world, I honestly think we should grow anything the world wants to eat, including food dogs.
And least we forget, at one time, lobster was considered food for poor people.
posted by cjorgensen at 7:32 AM on February 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
totally happy to take your coyotes
Not the best idea ever. Coyotes mostly go after smaller prey, rabbits and grouse. I suspect sheep would be a lot of fun for a coyote pack.
They do also take deer, at least in the eastern NA packs. This is interesting; their western relatives generally don't/can't. Eastern coyotes are evolving pretty rapidly into a wolf analog/cross-breed---pure bread coyotes are a bit too small to be able to reliably take deer. They're also also increasingly breeding with wild dogs which makes them less cautious of humans.
You don't want coyotes. You would soon have something very wolf-like, I think.
posted by bonehead at 7:38 AM on February 20, 2018
Not the best idea ever. Coyotes mostly go after smaller prey, rabbits and grouse. I suspect sheep would be a lot of fun for a coyote pack.
They do also take deer, at least in the eastern NA packs. This is interesting; their western relatives generally don't/can't. Eastern coyotes are evolving pretty rapidly into a wolf analog/cross-breed---pure bread coyotes are a bit too small to be able to reliably take deer. They're also also increasingly breeding with wild dogs which makes them less cautious of humans.
You don't want coyotes. You would soon have something very wolf-like, I think.
posted by bonehead at 7:38 AM on February 20, 2018
Can I get some backup from an actual Brit here, please?
I'm vegetarian, and my closest experience to venison has been the time I worked on the M&S tills and got berated by a furious shopper because we only sold Irish venison and not Scottish venison and she was not happy.
But with that said: yeah, I really don't think giving culled deer meat to the poor as a policy decision would go down well at all, because it wouldn't read as 'fancy venison', it would read as 'we, the rich, get proper farmed meat; you, the starving, get this spare animal we shot. Next up, roadkill!' And it definitely doesn't help that venison already isn't normal everyday meat in the same way cow/pig is.
Were wolves ever native to those parts of Scotland?
Yes, but they died out a few hundred years back. There are regular discussions about reintroducing them (when I was at university the environmental science department actually banned 'feasibility study on reintroducing wolves' as a final-year dissertation topic because everyone was doing it), and sometimes lynx, and very rarely bears although I suspect only to shift the Overton window re: the others. But for comparison, beavers were reintroduced a few years ago and there was a LOT of objection to that, so apex predators are some way away.
posted by Catseye at 7:40 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm vegetarian, and my closest experience to venison has been the time I worked on the M&S tills and got berated by a furious shopper because we only sold Irish venison and not Scottish venison and she was not happy.
But with that said: yeah, I really don't think giving culled deer meat to the poor as a policy decision would go down well at all, because it wouldn't read as 'fancy venison', it would read as 'we, the rich, get proper farmed meat; you, the starving, get this spare animal we shot. Next up, roadkill!' And it definitely doesn't help that venison already isn't normal everyday meat in the same way cow/pig is.
Were wolves ever native to those parts of Scotland?
Yes, but they died out a few hundred years back. There are regular discussions about reintroducing them (when I was at university the environmental science department actually banned 'feasibility study on reintroducing wolves' as a final-year dissertation topic because everyone was doing it), and sometimes lynx, and very rarely bears although I suspect only to shift the Overton window re: the others. But for comparison, beavers were reintroduced a few years ago and there was a LOT of objection to that, so apex predators are some way away.
posted by Catseye at 7:40 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
Or well, I've advocated let them eat bambi, but "them" is the rich landowners orchestrating culls, not poor food bank users.
There aren't starving people in the UK because there's wasted venison or because well-off people aren't eating enough culled venison to shove non-venison into sale prices. There are starving people in the UK because the UK has collectively decided, just like the US has, that it doesn't give a shit about its people starving.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [30 favorites]
There aren't starving people in the UK because there's wasted venison or because well-off people aren't eating enough culled venison to shove non-venison into sale prices. There are starving people in the UK because the UK has collectively decided, just like the US has, that it doesn't give a shit about its people starving.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [30 favorites]
Just wanted to chime in that deer are dangerous varmints in Central NJ. When driving down Route 29, I'd roll down my window and curse at them.
posted by whuppy at 7:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by whuppy at 7:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm bewildered that people's response to a large deer population eating their gardens is to either kill the deer or put up ugly wire/fences. There are plenty of plants/vegetables that are uninteresting to deer. Grow those.
posted by juniper at 7:48 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by juniper at 7:48 AM on February 20, 2018
It seems like any food that is given away would quickly become stigmatized. Is the answer then to never give away food? I'm fine with that, cash assistance is better in every way. Why not bid out a contract for public land hunting to a deer processor and have them perform scheduled culls/mass processing? They'd be able to take orders in advance from grocery chains and perhaps even export if they were big enough to meet testing requirements.
posted by domo at 7:49 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by domo at 7:49 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
"Next up, roadkill!"
Shout out to the states that have proactively passed health laws/standards regarding the taking of roadkill for edible meat. Looking at you, West Virginia, and you, Florida. Anyone else?
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:55 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Shout out to the states that have proactively passed health laws/standards regarding the taking of roadkill for edible meat. Looking at you, West Virginia, and you, Florida. Anyone else?
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:55 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
the taking of roadkill for edible meat.
Heh. It's legal to take roadkill in the UK, but only if you weren't the one who hit it.
posted by Leon at 7:57 AM on February 20, 2018
Heh. It's legal to take roadkill in the UK, but only if you weren't the one who hit it.
posted by Leon at 7:57 AM on February 20, 2018
There aren't starving people in the UK because there's wasted venison or because well-off people aren't eating enough culled venison to shove non-venison into sale prices. There are starving people in the UK because the UK has collectively decided, just like the US has, that it doesn't give a shit about its people starving.
Yep, and it's in this context that leaving carcasses to rot because you have plenty and can't be arsed is offensive. It won't solve the problem, but it would make the people in question somewhat less monumental assholes.
posted by Dysk at 8:00 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yep, and it's in this context that leaving carcasses to rot because you have plenty and can't be arsed is offensive. It won't solve the problem, but it would make the people in question somewhat less monumental assholes.
posted by Dysk at 8:00 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Were wolves ever native to those parts of Scotland?
Not just wolves, there were jaguars, bears, tigers, hyenas, lions, and scimitar cats too. Along with woolly rhinoceros, giant elk, and mastodon.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:02 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Not just wolves, there were jaguars, bears, tigers, hyenas, lions, and scimitar cats too. Along with woolly rhinoceros, giant elk, and mastodon.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:02 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Whenever we're driving my 3 year old will ask if we're on the highway. He doesn't like the highway because there could be deer and we could hit one. During a road trip over the winter holidays I spotted some deer by the side of the road which is how he learnt about it. I am not sure if he doesn't want to hit a deer because he doesn't want to hurt it or he doesn't want to get hurt himself. I keep telling him that there aren't any deer in the area so we're ok when we're close to home.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 8:06 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 8:06 AM on February 20, 2018
So mad cow was a big problem in the UK and I know a similar problem affected elk in North America. Wouldn't that be one reason to be more cautious about "eh, just eat 'em!"
But basically you either have to have a natural predator kill them, or you do.
posted by emjaybee at 8:11 AM on February 20, 2018
But basically you either have to have a natural predator kill them, or you do.
posted by emjaybee at 8:11 AM on February 20, 2018
> Shout out to the states that have proactively passed health laws/standards regarding the taking of roadkill for edible meat.
In Pennsylvania it's not legal to take home your roadkill.* IIRC, notify the local game warden of it and they'll dispatch of the carcass according to their best judgement. Some will destroy it, some will distribute it to their cronies, some will in fact make sure the meat goes to a food bank.
Donation of game meat is not necessarily an optimal outcome either. Food banks run on threadbare budgets and need donations that they can handle as efficiently as possible. Cartons of frozen processed meat are easier for their volunteer or minimally-trained staff to handle, store, and turn into meals than arbitrary cuts of arbitrary animals are, even if those cuts are high-quality and delicious.
A carcass is not meat -- it requires a butcher to transform it; if one isn't available to donate their time and equipment, a venison donation can easily cost the recipient more per pound of edible meat than a shipment of commodity-grade ground beef would, due to the labor cost.
*(Because before that law was passed, people were hunting deer with their truck bumpers, and sometimes simply taking the head and antlers for wall decoration, leaving the rest of the body on the road.)
posted by ardgedee at 8:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
In Pennsylvania it's not legal to take home your roadkill.* IIRC, notify the local game warden of it and they'll dispatch of the carcass according to their best judgement. Some will destroy it, some will distribute it to their cronies, some will in fact make sure the meat goes to a food bank.
Donation of game meat is not necessarily an optimal outcome either. Food banks run on threadbare budgets and need donations that they can handle as efficiently as possible. Cartons of frozen processed meat are easier for their volunteer or minimally-trained staff to handle, store, and turn into meals than arbitrary cuts of arbitrary animals are, even if those cuts are high-quality and delicious.
A carcass is not meat -- it requires a butcher to transform it; if one isn't available to donate their time and equipment, a venison donation can easily cost the recipient more per pound of edible meat than a shipment of commodity-grade ground beef would, due to the labor cost.
*(Because before that law was passed, people were hunting deer with their truck bumpers, and sometimes simply taking the head and antlers for wall decoration, leaving the rest of the body on the road.)
posted by ardgedee at 8:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
TSE/prion diseases exist in deer too. It's often called chronic wasting disease. It's common enough in some NA populations and also been found in Norway. There's no reported cases of deer to human transmission that I'm aware of, but it's something the Canadian food inspection people (at least) have on their radar.
posted by bonehead at 8:24 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 8:24 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I keep on saying "trebuchet" but it's like no one is listening.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:26 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:26 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
If deer are molesting your garden but your neighbors are to close to responsibly shoot a gun, definitely look into crossbow hunting. Crossbows are very easy to learn (there's a reason they revolutionized warfare) and a broadhead will often kill a deer quicker than a bullet but it won't go through your neighbor's wall.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:29 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Jacqueline at 8:29 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yep, and it's in this context that leaving carcasses to rot because you have plenty and can't be arsed is offensive. It won't solve the problem, but it would make the people in question somewhat less monumental assholes.
"Clean your plate because kids are starving in China" is magical thinking that does nothing to help starving kids anywhere.
posted by straight at 8:30 AM on February 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
"Clean your plate because kids are starving in China" is magical thinking that does nothing to help starving kids anywhere.
posted by straight at 8:30 AM on February 20, 2018 [14 favorites]
Yep, and it's in this context that leaving carcasses to rot because you have plenty and can't be arsed is offensive. It won't solve the problem, but it would make the people in question somewhat less monumental assholes.
If the problem you're trying to solve is "I feel bad about people going hungry in the UK and want to not mind it so much," yeah, it's a good solution.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:35 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
If the problem you're trying to solve is "I feel bad about people going hungry in the UK and want to not mind it so much," yeah, it's a good solution.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:35 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
My husband hunts deer here in Canada. We have a freezer full of it. For those advocating that we eat more venison - I hear that it's a sensible solution, but I can't be the only one who thinks it's actually pretty unappetizing. We used to get deer steaks and roasts cut, but I think they taste like liver and I just can't stomach it. I prefer getting it ground up so that I can use it in spaghetti sauce or tacos or chili - stuff that masks the flavor. The best way to eat it is made up into sausages - but they add pork to those or else they'd be too lean, and flavor them heavily. And having sausages done up by a butcher is expensive (I don't know the price per pound, but I know we paid over $300 to have parts of 2 deer done most recently).
posted by kitcat at 8:35 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by kitcat at 8:35 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
A carcass is not meat -- it requires a butcher to transform it; if one isn't available to donate their time and equipment, a venison donation can easily cost the recipient more per pound of edible meat than a shipment of commodity-grade ground beef would, due to the labor cost.
In the US, Hunters for the Hungry quotes a cost of $45 for their program to process one deer, which provides ~50 pounds of meat.
Running the conversions, that's the equivalent of £32 for 23kg of meat, or £1.40/kg. How does that compare to ground beef prices?
posted by Jacqueline at 8:39 AM on February 20, 2018
In the US, Hunters for the Hungry quotes a cost of $45 for their program to process one deer, which provides ~50 pounds of meat.
Running the conversions, that's the equivalent of £32 for 23kg of meat, or £1.40/kg. How does that compare to ground beef prices?
posted by Jacqueline at 8:39 AM on February 20, 2018
kitcat -- how much do you value your time ? ;) We process our own deer, and we make: tenderloin, jerky, stew/chunk, ground and sausage. (ie no steaks, and maybe one rump-roast or two).
Kitchen-aid meat grinder is great, and the sausage stuffer attachment works well. We do a 30% pork fat mix for sausage. Just make sure the strips are mostly frozen to grind and the ground is mostly frozen to stuff.
End to end (carcass hauled up) to everything vacuum sealed in the freezer is a good 8 hours of work (over several days).
posted by k5.user at 8:47 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Kitchen-aid meat grinder is great, and the sausage stuffer attachment works well. We do a 30% pork fat mix for sausage. Just make sure the strips are mostly frozen to grind and the ground is mostly frozen to stuff.
End to end (carcass hauled up) to everything vacuum sealed in the freezer is a good 8 hours of work (over several days).
posted by k5.user at 8:47 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
So mad cow was a big problem in the UK and I know a similar problem affected elk in North America. Wouldn't that be one reason to be more cautious about "eh, just eat 'em!"
Overpopulation is the reason prion diseases are affecting deer.
When they're crowded enough that they use the bones of their cousins as salt licks, prion diseases happen. Cull them enough and it won't be a problem.
posted by ocschwar at 8:52 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Overpopulation is the reason prion diseases are affecting deer.
When they're crowded enough that they use the bones of their cousins as salt licks, prion diseases happen. Cull them enough and it won't be a problem.
posted by ocschwar at 8:52 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
We may do our own someday, but yeah, my time at least is worth a lot. I certainly don't want to spend an entire day processing deer, although my husband would likely enjoy it. But that's a job for at least two people. I'm surprised you're able to use the Kitchen-Aid. I was thinking we would have to pay up to $600 for a proper grinder. We also need to buy a vacuum sealer. And then there's a learning curve that intimidates me. What if you put all that work into making sausage and it tasted awful?
Anyhow, I checked the website of one of the butchers in town. They charge $1 per pound for straight up meat (although it says that's the skinned, hanging weight. So is that the price before it's deboned? I don't know). And sausages are about 50% pork and cost 2.85 a pound.
posted by kitcat at 8:54 AM on February 20, 2018
Anyhow, I checked the website of one of the butchers in town. They charge $1 per pound for straight up meat (although it says that's the skinned, hanging weight. So is that the price before it's deboned? I don't know). And sausages are about 50% pork and cost 2.85 a pound.
posted by kitcat at 8:54 AM on February 20, 2018
> In the US, Hunters for the Hungry quotes a cost of $45 for their program to process one deer...
Is that available in the UK? The issue we're discussing is in Scotland, not the US.
posted by ardgedee at 8:59 AM on February 20, 2018
Is that available in the UK? The issue we're discussing is in Scotland, not the US.
posted by ardgedee at 8:59 AM on February 20, 2018
Is that available in the UK? The issue we're discussing is in Scotland, not the US.
It's an example of what it might cost for a nonprofit to process deer into venison to be given to hungry people, if they want to go that route instead of just letting the deer carcasses rot. (IMO, it would probably be even easier and less costly to administer such a program in Scotland since everything is much closer together than it is in the US.)
posted by Jacqueline at 9:06 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's an example of what it might cost for a nonprofit to process deer into venison to be given to hungry people, if they want to go that route instead of just letting the deer carcasses rot. (IMO, it would probably be even easier and less costly to administer such a program in Scotland since everything is much closer together than it is in the US.)
posted by Jacqueline at 9:06 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Coyotes are the worst canid you can have.
None of the listed issues sound like a problem to me, coyotes' ability to live anywhere is one of the things that makes them excellent. And people shouldn't have unspayed bitches in heat (unless you are a breeder, in which case why the fuck are you leaving them out? It's not like stray dogs won't do the same thing.)
They will eat pets, but I recognize the ability to have an indoor/outdoor cat is a bit of a privilege - I grew up with them but my mother's cat is now indoor only. Coyotes haven't moved in yet to her area, but foxes have, which is pretty damn great in my opinion.
The coyote/dog/wolf hybrid that is beginning to re-flll the slot of the Eastern Wolf can be an issue, in that there's one known case where their pack behavior led them to kill a human, but they also now can act as deer predator. And dozens of people have been killed by packs of dogs in the same 30 year span as a single coyote death.
posted by tavella at 9:11 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
None of the listed issues sound like a problem to me, coyotes' ability to live anywhere is one of the things that makes them excellent. And people shouldn't have unspayed bitches in heat (unless you are a breeder, in which case why the fuck are you leaving them out? It's not like stray dogs won't do the same thing.)
They will eat pets, but I recognize the ability to have an indoor/outdoor cat is a bit of a privilege - I grew up with them but my mother's cat is now indoor only. Coyotes haven't moved in yet to her area, but foxes have, which is pretty damn great in my opinion.
The coyote/dog/wolf hybrid that is beginning to re-flll the slot of the Eastern Wolf can be an issue, in that there's one known case where their pack behavior led them to kill a human, but they also now can act as deer predator. And dozens of people have been killed by packs of dogs in the same 30 year span as a single coyote death.
posted by tavella at 9:11 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
And people shouldn't have unspayed bitches in heat (unless you are a breeder, in which case why the fuck are you leaving them out? It's not like stray dogs won't do the same thing.)
Okay, I'll rephrase.
When your idiot neighbor gets a litter of coy-dogs from his un-spayed un-kennelled bitch, he might find out when a pup bites his fingers off, or he might find out when a pup bites YOUR fingers off.
Or worse, if he's a garden variety sociopath, he'll know the all along that his pups are coy dogs and won't care. It's already an issue around the US.
The eastern timberwolves we had in the US kept their distance from humans, even if they predated on human livestock. Coyotes don't. I'd rather be dealing with wolves.
posted by ocschwar at 9:18 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Okay, I'll rephrase.
When your idiot neighbor gets a litter of coy-dogs from his un-spayed un-kennelled bitch, he might find out when a pup bites his fingers off, or he might find out when a pup bites YOUR fingers off.
Or worse, if he's a garden variety sociopath, he'll know the all along that his pups are coy dogs and won't care. It's already an issue around the US.
The eastern timberwolves we had in the US kept their distance from humans, even if they predated on human livestock. Coyotes don't. I'd rather be dealing with wolves.
posted by ocschwar at 9:18 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
If the problem you're trying to solve is "I feel bad about people going hungry in the UK and want to not mind it so much," yeah, it's a good solution.
"Clean your plate because kids are starving in China" is magical thinking that does nothing to help starving kids anywhere.
Nah, it's more that supermarkets have an immensely tight stranglehold on the food we consume in this country, which leads to a ton of waste which is completely built into the system. Strawberries get thrown into skips for looking non-uniform whilst people go hungry. And social pressure, of the sort that Food Waste Fight do, is a damn sight better than shoulder shrugging.
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:19 AM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Metafilter: I'd rather be dealing with wolves.
posted by goatdog at 9:19 AM on February 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by goatdog at 9:19 AM on February 20, 2018 [12 favorites]
This problem is so close to mine. I love getting up in the morning and seeing the deer grazing in my garden or the field outside it — they are cute and when I was a kid it was a rare sight so I am still a little amazed every day. BUT for unrelated and stupid reasons, my garden was razed by a couple of idiots some years ago, and now I find it impossible to regrow it without huge fencing expenses (and all the ugliness of those fences). Also, I've had recurring Lymes, last time they initially thought it was a rare cancer with a survival rate of 5% (not a good day for me), and both the disease and the antibiotics needed to kill it have been devastating for my general health. Also yes, I have hit one with my car. So I want the deer culled. But the guy I've let out the hunting rights to isn't interested in deer, and that's sort of that. Me, I'd love me some venison, I know how to cook it, and it can be delicious.
I'm welcoming the wolves which are moving into our area after a 300 year hiatus, and so are most of my neighbors. Even those who shoot the deer on their land say it's growing over their heads, just like these Scots.
One thing I can recognize from your American experiences, not from the Scots, is the influx of deer in suburbia. They can hide from the hunters in the suburban landscape, and then come out to eat my garden outside of the hunting season.
posted by mumimor at 9:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm welcoming the wolves which are moving into our area after a 300 year hiatus, and so are most of my neighbors. Even those who shoot the deer on their land say it's growing over their heads, just like these Scots.
One thing I can recognize from your American experiences, not from the Scots, is the influx of deer in suburbia. They can hide from the hunters in the suburban landscape, and then come out to eat my garden outside of the hunting season.
posted by mumimor at 9:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
So I'm guessing you're all cool with people doing shit like burning twenties in front of homeless people, because keeping it for yourself instead in order not to be a monumental asshole doesn't solve the problem of poverty, only decent taxation and welfare state will do that.
Sometimes, you're not looking to solve a problem. Doesn't mean refraining from being an offensive shit isn't valuable in and of itself.
posted by Dysk at 9:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Sometimes, you're not looking to solve a problem. Doesn't mean refraining from being an offensive shit isn't valuable in and of itself.
posted by Dysk at 9:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Strawberries get thrown into skips for looking non-uniform whilst people go hungry.
Again, people don't go hungry because too many strawberries get thrown away. They go hungry because their countries (and others) don't give a shit about it. Strawberries get thrown away while people go hungry, yes. We waste money on alcohol while people go hungry. We waste money watching grown men throw or kick a ball around while people go hungry. People waste money on ridiculously large televisions while people go hungry. People go hungry because we don't care that they're hungry, or in some instances because we want them to go hungry. We express this in a vast number of choices that we make.
If we gave a shit about them being hungry, then we'd feed them and strawberries would be thrown away while people didn't go hungry.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:27 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
Again, people don't go hungry because too many strawberries get thrown away. They go hungry because their countries (and others) don't give a shit about it. Strawberries get thrown away while people go hungry, yes. We waste money on alcohol while people go hungry. We waste money watching grown men throw or kick a ball around while people go hungry. People waste money on ridiculously large televisions while people go hungry. People go hungry because we don't care that they're hungry, or in some instances because we want them to go hungry. We express this in a vast number of choices that we make.
If we gave a shit about them being hungry, then we'd feed them and strawberries would be thrown away while people didn't go hungry.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:27 AM on February 20, 2018 [8 favorites]
(And having been reliant on charity in order to eat quite recently myself, I am definitely not trying to solve the "problem" of feeling bad about people starving. Frankly, that implication is offensive too.)
posted by Dysk at 9:28 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:28 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Shout out to the states that have proactively passed health laws/standards regarding the taking of roadkill for edible meat.
Twenty years ago I hit a moose in New Hampshire and some guy with a pickup truck fed his family for a year.
posted by bondcliff at 9:31 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Twenty years ago I hit a moose in New Hampshire and some guy with a pickup truck fed his family for a year.
posted by bondcliff at 9:31 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
The coyote/dog/wolf hybrid that is beginning to re-flll the slot of the Eastern Wolf can be an issue
I had a notable encounter with one that stood off a field team in northern Ontario for a good twenty minutes last fall. It seemingly couldn't decide if it wanted to be friends with us or if it was aggressively defending territory. Its body language, even for life-long dog owners and very experienced field biologists, was quite confusing. We couldn't tell if it wanted to play or attack or both. It hung around us for at least twenty minutes trying to decide.
The admixture of stray dog into coyote/wolf has made it less cautious of human contact and also quite unpredictable. I don't think either of those features is really a good thing.
posted by bonehead at 9:37 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
I had a notable encounter with one that stood off a field team in northern Ontario for a good twenty minutes last fall. It seemingly couldn't decide if it wanted to be friends with us or if it was aggressively defending territory. Its body language, even for life-long dog owners and very experienced field biologists, was quite confusing. We couldn't tell if it wanted to play or attack or both. It hung around us for at least twenty minutes trying to decide.
The admixture of stray dog into coyote/wolf has made it less cautious of human contact and also quite unpredictable. I don't think either of those features is really a good thing.
posted by bonehead at 9:37 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
So I'm guessing you're all cool with people doing shit like burning twenties in front of homeless people, because keeping it for yourself instead in order not to be a monumental asshole doesn't solve the problem of poverty, only decent taxation and welfare state will do that.
If there were so many twenties wandering around that the herds of cash were causing ecological problems, yeah, sure.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:37 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
If there were so many twenties wandering around that the herds of cash were causing ecological problems, yeah, sure.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:37 AM on February 20, 2018 [5 favorites]
Again, people don't go hungry because too many strawberries get thrown away. They go hungry because their countries (and others) don't give a shit about it.
Thanks for simplifying that down for me, bud. FFS
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:43 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thanks for simplifying that down for me, bud. FFS
posted by threetwentytwo at 9:43 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
You'd still be able to deal with the twenties in a more humane, respectful manner. Choosing the most assholish option for dealing with it isn't necessary.
posted by Dysk at 9:45 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by Dysk at 9:45 AM on February 20, 2018
I will shut up after this, but:
Whatever problem or issue you think you would be solving by gathering up culled deer for food, you could do an even better job of solving by not doing that, taking the money it would cost to do so, and just giving it to poor people to do whatever makes sense to them. If what you ultimately don't like about it is the appearance of it, then I'd say you should care more about problems and less about appearances.
rich stage massive deer hunt, spend lavishly and inefficiently and wastefully to eat cheap meat' really be...better?
I will admit I'd thought more along the lines of just hiring workers to kill them at an honest wage.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:19 AM on February 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
Whatever problem or issue you think you would be solving by gathering up culled deer for food, you could do an even better job of solving by not doing that, taking the money it would cost to do so, and just giving it to poor people to do whatever makes sense to them. If what you ultimately don't like about it is the appearance of it, then I'd say you should care more about problems and less about appearances.
rich stage massive deer hunt, spend lavishly and inefficiently and wastefully to eat cheap meat' really be...better?
I will admit I'd thought more along the lines of just hiring workers to kill them at an honest wage.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:19 AM on February 20, 2018 [7 favorites]
Driving through the Colorado foothills one night, I saw a poor struggling deer that had obviously been hit by a car but was still alive. I dropped into a nearby tavern and let the barflies know about it, and boy, there were lots of guys with trucks and guns ready to go and grab the free meat.
posted by kozad at 10:26 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by kozad at 10:26 AM on February 20, 2018
And least we forget, at one time, lobster was considered food for poor people.
To be fair, they ground them up with the shells, so that's a bit less appetizing.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:28 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
To be fair, they ground them up with the shells, so that's a bit less appetizing.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:28 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
These deer are still in the wild. What a bunch of rookies. My town is literally choked with deer. There must be more deer than squirrels. Any attempt to do anything is avoided so as not to upset any kneejerkers. Someone's gonna get gored soon.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:35 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by humboldt32 at 10:35 AM on February 20, 2018
I don't see how it's unreasonable to prefer that food is eaten instead of letting it rot, even if it doesn't directly solve a hunger crisis. If it's mostly being eaten by wealthy people, that seems 100% to me like an issue of accessibility, not that working-class people would be uninterested in eating venison, or offended by the suggestion. The costs of processing and transporting wild game are always going to be higher than with farmed animals, right? On the other hand, it was only a generation or two ago that people ate rabbit as a cheap alternative to chicken, right?
I grew up in the country, and I'm glad that at least the culling aspect of this seems to be less controversial than I remember it being when I was a kid. I grew up seeing deer all the time, and I love them, but aside from being overwhelming for people living there, I also don't want to see them starving and getting crowd diseases.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 10:42 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I grew up in the country, and I'm glad that at least the culling aspect of this seems to be less controversial than I remember it being when I was a kid. I grew up seeing deer all the time, and I love them, but aside from being overwhelming for people living there, I also don't want to see them starving and getting crowd diseases.
posted by shapes that haunt the dusk at 10:42 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Leaving the carcasses behind is a waste, or at least is if there aren't enough carrion eaters around to eat them all. But if there needs to be a managed hunt on an indefinite basis then couldn't the government set up a scheme to have the carcasses processed and then sold onto the food market? The processing means added employment in rural areas (probably not a priority for a Conservative government in London, but ought to be one for a SNP one in Edinburgh) and then there isn't the issue of this "waste meat" being forced upon the poor. I accept that it is likely that the market price would be less than the costs involved but this isn't a business, it's a conservation and employment program.
I think we try to do something similar with seals here in Canada but there is a lot of international opposition to the culls here.
In the Toronto area we can get lots of Canada Geese and we have professionals who will trap them and send them to communities elsewhere (with the consent of those communities). Apparently it isn't cost-effective to process them either, because you'd have to fatten them up to get ready for market.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:55 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think we try to do something similar with seals here in Canada but there is a lot of international opposition to the culls here.
In the Toronto area we can get lots of Canada Geese and we have professionals who will trap them and send them to communities elsewhere (with the consent of those communities). Apparently it isn't cost-effective to process them either, because you'd have to fatten them up to get ready for market.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:55 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Who the fuck would consent to having geese sent in? They're horrible nasty creatures. (Delicious, though)
posted by hippybear at 10:57 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:57 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
Ontario doesn’t have a goose problem. It has a bureaucracy problem
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:14 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Daniel Moro, project manager with the Toronto Region Conservation Authory, says municipalities shouldn’t simply scare geese far enough away to make them someone else’s concern. “The biggest problem is, where would these birds get pushed to?” he says. “How far do we keep pushing these birds?”So apparently the people of Amherstburg and Morrisburg want the geese. Not sure why, but I don't think we should be looking this gift horse in the mouth.
The TRCA, instead of foisting geese on neighbouring communities, trucks the birds from the Toronto waterfront to willing hosts across Ontario — including Amherstburg, Morrisburg, and Long Point conservation area. Mississauga and Oakville ship their birds to the Aylmer Wildlife Reserve. Moro says 10 per cent of them fly home immediately, but the remainder tend to stay away, and each year fewer return to the waterfront.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:14 AM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
I could imagine weird unexpected things happening if you kill too many deer, too fast, but they won't exactly "go to waste", they'll turn into maggots and insects and whatever other animals are around that like to eat dead deer. Maybe some of those animals should be humans, but if it's much cheaper just to shoot them from helicopters and let nature take them, that... seems to make sense to me?
Anyway shooting them is nicer than infecting them with myxomytosis.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Anyway shooting them is nicer than infecting them with myxomytosis.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:21 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
A lot of people (not me) want the town to "take care of them" but there's not too much that can be done.
Introducing a new species to deal with the undesirable animals always seems to work. So I suggest: wolverines.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
Introducing a new species to deal with the undesirable animals always seems to work. So I suggest: wolverines.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:22 AM on February 20, 2018 [6 favorites]
California is having the opposite problem: the deer population is declining.
posted by linux at 11:23 AM on February 20, 2018
posted by linux at 11:23 AM on February 20, 2018
Geese are nasty. When I lived in the Twin Cities we used to joke that they needed to bring in cougars to control the ridiculous goose population. But actually there are a few cougars prowling the corridor of the Minnesota River as it cuts through the southern suburbs. And they do find deer tasty.
We have sighted wolves and their tracks at our farm here in northwest North Dakota. I keep an eye on our small dogs when they're running around the farmyard. But nothing gives you a chill down the spine like finding a very very large cat track.
posted by Ber at 11:27 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
We have sighted wolves and their tracks at our farm here in northwest North Dakota. I keep an eye on our small dogs when they're running around the farmyard. But nothing gives you a chill down the spine like finding a very very large cat track.
posted by Ber at 11:27 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
California is having the opposite problem: the deer population is declining.
Obligatory Patrick.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:32 AM on February 20, 2018
Obligatory Patrick.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:32 AM on February 20, 2018
Quick translation: the closest north American relative to the European red deer is the elk. These are not the garden pests that bother everyone.
I've stopped eating meat, but venison is something I used to see a fair amount of when I looked in meat aisles. Mainly in Waitrose as actual cuts of meat, and as sausages in Sainsbury's.
Rabbit + shotgun is something that happens in some circles, from what I've heard. (Roe) deer + rifle is something that occasionally fills my parents' freezer, from a bloke who spends a lot of time up a tree in Dumfries.
posted by ambrosen at 11:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've stopped eating meat, but venison is something I used to see a fair amount of when I looked in meat aisles. Mainly in Waitrose as actual cuts of meat, and as sausages in Sainsbury's.
Rabbit + shotgun is something that happens in some circles, from what I've heard. (Roe) deer + rifle is something that occasionally fills my parents' freezer, from a bloke who spends a lot of time up a tree in Dumfries.
posted by ambrosen at 11:45 AM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
More wolves plz.
posted by TrinsicWS at 11:50 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by TrinsicWS at 11:50 AM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
how do you make sure you haven't dosed the same deer twice? That's harder the more deer you have, since it's more difficult to identify them by appearance within an area.
Something like the VetGun Delivery System only with darts would take care of this issue—basically make it so the darts used to dose deer with Depo-Provera also leave a paint mark, so you know which deer have been dosed. That said, there are a whole lot of issues with using darts (PDF) for medication delivery in animals. Also, with hormonal medications, I wonder if there would be potential adverse effects in humans who eat meat from those deer if they were later culled.
posted by limeonaire at 2:01 PM on February 20, 2018
Something like the VetGun Delivery System only with darts would take care of this issue—basically make it so the darts used to dose deer with Depo-Provera also leave a paint mark, so you know which deer have been dosed. That said, there are a whole lot of issues with using darts (PDF) for medication delivery in animals. Also, with hormonal medications, I wonder if there would be potential adverse effects in humans who eat meat from those deer if they were later culled.
posted by limeonaire at 2:01 PM on February 20, 2018
What is Julien's purpose?
I interpreted the example as him finding the easiest possible target that he would be most likely to be able to hit, because at that point he had not yet managed to kill any deer despite repeated attempts.
Managing wildlife populations is really difficult. Here in Australia, for example, the koala population is declining in the ACT, QLD and NSW while in Victoria and SA it is most definitely not. And though we eat kangaroo and emu, I think most white people would be pretty horrified by koalas being eaten (though historically, indigenous Australians did).
posted by Athanassiel at 3:12 PM on February 20, 2018
I interpreted the example as him finding the easiest possible target that he would be most likely to be able to hit, because at that point he had not yet managed to kill any deer despite repeated attempts.
Managing wildlife populations is really difficult. Here in Australia, for example, the koala population is declining in the ACT, QLD and NSW while in Victoria and SA it is most definitely not. And though we eat kangaroo and emu, I think most white people would be pretty horrified by koalas being eaten (though historically, indigenous Australians did).
posted by Athanassiel at 3:12 PM on February 20, 2018
Venison is low fat meat, and may be from an older animal; hence the cooking differences. In Maine, a deer or moose killed in a vehicle accident will usually be harvested for food, either a food bank or someone known to a game warden. I don't think of them as vermin; just not accurate, but when overpopulated, they cause problems. Leaving a large volume of quality meat to rot is just gross. I'll bet herds can be driven by a helicopter, not just shot at from one, to an area where they can be slaughtered and processed. You can bet the beef industry is fighting it hard because it will hurt profits, but that seems manageable. If there's venison steaks, mince, roasts, sausages, etc., at the market at a good price, poor and not-poor people will enjoy it. Some quantity of British veal is exported, and surely venison would be popular on the continent, as well. This is currently urgent, but realistically, deer overpopulation will be an ongoing issue. That argues for a resolution that is less wasteful.
posted by theora55 at 3:19 PM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 3:19 PM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm bewildered that people's response to a large deer population eating their gardens is to either kill the deer or put up ugly wire/fences. There are plenty of plants/vegetables that are uninteresting to deer. Grow those.
If you've got a lot of hungry deer they will happily start to much on plants that the local nursery formally touted as "deer-proof". Also I wager that most people want more from their vegetable garden than onions, leeks, chives, and garlic.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:22 PM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
If you've got a lot of hungry deer they will happily start to much on plants that the local nursery formally touted as "deer-proof". Also I wager that most people want more from their vegetable garden than onions, leeks, chives, and garlic.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:22 PM on February 20, 2018 [4 favorites]
Epping Forest near London has a deer population and a management strategy which, among other things, helps address deer-vehicle collisions. They run popular venison butchery courses and sell it in the visitor centre. Everyone is ok as long as nobody is enjoying it
posted by doiheartwentyone at 3:39 PM on February 20, 2018
posted by doiheartwentyone at 3:39 PM on February 20, 2018
"I think most white people would be pretty horrified by koalas being eaten (though historically, indigenous Australians did)."I know someone who has eaten koala (& wombat, as well as a bunch of other native animals; he's spent years working & living in some fairly remote Aboriginal communities). By his account its not very nice; tough & stringy, with just a touch of the eucalypt taste but with a lot of the bitterness.
Because they taste like arse, the locals (at least where he's been; mostly FNQ & NT) only ever hunted them for a couple of ceremonial occasions or out of absolute necessity. To be honest, he's always half-suspected the times he's been served it have been part of some "come watch the dumb white man eat this shit!" games - but he's got a good sense of humour for that kind of thing…
(Disclaimer: I've used the word "Aboriginal" here because I believe it's the usage preferred by the relevant communities. YMMV with different groups in different areas.)
posted by Pinback at 4:13 PM on February 20, 2018
Perhaps they could turn them into fertilizer.
Here in Australia we have a big problem with European carp fucking up our rivers. There are a trillion billion of them and they are destroying everything. A couple of decades ago one enterprising mob, Charlie Carp, started hauling them in by the ton, boiling them up in a big tank, and turning them into fertilizer. It's very reasonably-priced and has excellent NPK ratios for an all-purpose fertilizer. Recently they started pelletizing it, which is nice.
(Fish fertilizer as a rule is extremely problematic.)
It seems a few places in the States already compost roadkilled deer and other unfortunates. Composting on the massive scale that Scotland apparently needs would naturally not be feasible, but I can't think of why they can't be ground up and cooked into fertilizer.
I mean the whole thing is a shitshow of course and just another on the long list of examples worldwide of why humans need to stop fucking about with things, but yeah. Deer fertilizer. Get on it.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:49 PM on February 20, 2018
Here in Australia we have a big problem with European carp fucking up our rivers. There are a trillion billion of them and they are destroying everything. A couple of decades ago one enterprising mob, Charlie Carp, started hauling them in by the ton, boiling them up in a big tank, and turning them into fertilizer. It's very reasonably-priced and has excellent NPK ratios for an all-purpose fertilizer. Recently they started pelletizing it, which is nice.
(Fish fertilizer as a rule is extremely problematic.)
It seems a few places in the States already compost roadkilled deer and other unfortunates. Composting on the massive scale that Scotland apparently needs would naturally not be feasible, but I can't think of why they can't be ground up and cooked into fertilizer.
I mean the whole thing is a shitshow of course and just another on the long list of examples worldwide of why humans need to stop fucking about with things, but yeah. Deer fertilizer. Get on it.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:49 PM on February 20, 2018
Charlie Carp sounds great, but turning the deer into fertilizer seems like too big of a waste to me. There are tons of people who would be happy to eat wild venison and having people eat that as opposed to some other meat is probably a better gain for the environment then using it to replace whatever else would have been fertilizing the crops.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:01 PM on February 20, 2018
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:01 PM on February 20, 2018
Introducing a new species to deal with the undesirable animals always seems to work. So I suggest: wolverines.
Let's not do things by halves. I say, bring in a population of Siberian Tigers- that will take care of the problem, toot sweet.
posted by happyroach at 5:16 PM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Let's not do things by halves. I say, bring in a population of Siberian Tigers- that will take care of the problem, toot sweet.
posted by happyroach at 5:16 PM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
onions, leeks, chives, and garlic.
Yeah our deer eat those too.
posted by humboldt32 at 5:22 PM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah our deer eat those too.
posted by humboldt32 at 5:22 PM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
There are tons of people who would be happy to eat wild venison and having people eat that as opposed to some other meat is probably a better gain for the environment then using it to replace whatever else would have been fertilizing the crops.
Oh for sure. It's not either/or. It's just that carp is actually a perfectly good edible fish and people catch and eat them all the time, and we still have the carp problem. So grinding them up into soil-juice is another part of the solution. Same with deer. And I mean you can't eat their bones or antlers anyway. Grind em up.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:36 PM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh for sure. It's not either/or. It's just that carp is actually a perfectly good edible fish and people catch and eat them all the time, and we still have the carp problem. So grinding them up into soil-juice is another part of the solution. Same with deer. And I mean you can't eat their bones or antlers anyway. Grind em up.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:36 PM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
You can get venison at Sainsburys or Tesco and you can get it at high end restaurants, esp. those specializing in “traditional British” or similar. I don’t know about the practicalities but it’s not like offering everyone puffin or something.
posted by praemunire at 6:22 PM on February 20, 2018
posted by praemunire at 6:22 PM on February 20, 2018
When I first left Seattle and ended up moving into the Olympic Peninsula: Oh, cute! Deer!
A couple of months later after actually living with them for a while: Oh, fuck, not another deer.
After my first rutting season, camping outdoors: OH, SHIT. DEER IN HEAT. GET THE FUCK AWAY, DEER. GO ON, GET OUT OF HERE.
One year later: Fuckin' stilt rats! Fuck you! And you too! Don't you bleat your dirty teeth at me, stilt rat!
Two years later: I should get a compound bow or a crossbow. You all look like food. Organically fed, free range food. You're like half a year's worth of venison jerky, just standing there, and maybe a sweet new jacket or hat.
I think it was somewhere between year one and year two when I came home to camp one night to about 12 pairs of eyes blinking and bleating at me in the reflected light of my headlamp, and I... I just kind of couldn't take it any more, so I suited up and started chasing the oversized hamster-brained rodents around through the camp and forest.
Since my location is isolated from basically all apex predators by being a semi-rural small town isolated on a peninsula, and because the town is generally full of a bunch of very peaceful hippies, and the town itself has a ridiculously low speed iimit due to all the deer, hippies and cyclists - the deer are basically living in deer heaven, surrounded by no spray yards and organic vegetable gardens and a whole lot of apple trees and other easy food.
So these deer might be getting chased around for the first time in generations. It was amazing how confused they were by this new concept of... fleeing.
"Hey, wait. What are you doing? We had a deal, right? You guys killed off all those asshole wolves and cougars, then we eat all the kale and good shit out of your gardens, have deer orgies in the middle of the road whenever we want and look cute, right? Just look at my glossy kale-fed coat, right? Right? Aren't I cute? Oh shit, guys, run!"
Yeah, eat the dumb leggy bastards. Someone or something should eat them. In North America wildlife resource management would be saving some carcasses for carrion and deadfall use, or even feeding rehab animals, but we have the carrion eaters and scavengers for that.
BTW, apparently it's perfectly legal and encouraged to salvage roadkill deer in WA state, and a many other states.
posted by loquacious at 6:23 PM on February 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
A couple of months later after actually living with them for a while: Oh, fuck, not another deer.
After my first rutting season, camping outdoors: OH, SHIT. DEER IN HEAT. GET THE FUCK AWAY, DEER. GO ON, GET OUT OF HERE.
One year later: Fuckin' stilt rats! Fuck you! And you too! Don't you bleat your dirty teeth at me, stilt rat!
Two years later: I should get a compound bow or a crossbow. You all look like food. Organically fed, free range food. You're like half a year's worth of venison jerky, just standing there, and maybe a sweet new jacket or hat.
I think it was somewhere between year one and year two when I came home to camp one night to about 12 pairs of eyes blinking and bleating at me in the reflected light of my headlamp, and I... I just kind of couldn't take it any more, so I suited up and started chasing the oversized hamster-brained rodents around through the camp and forest.
Since my location is isolated from basically all apex predators by being a semi-rural small town isolated on a peninsula, and because the town is generally full of a bunch of very peaceful hippies, and the town itself has a ridiculously low speed iimit due to all the deer, hippies and cyclists - the deer are basically living in deer heaven, surrounded by no spray yards and organic vegetable gardens and a whole lot of apple trees and other easy food.
So these deer might be getting chased around for the first time in generations. It was amazing how confused they were by this new concept of... fleeing.
"Hey, wait. What are you doing? We had a deal, right? You guys killed off all those asshole wolves and cougars, then we eat all the kale and good shit out of your gardens, have deer orgies in the middle of the road whenever we want and look cute, right? Just look at my glossy kale-fed coat, right? Right? Aren't I cute? Oh shit, guys, run!"
Yeah, eat the dumb leggy bastards. Someone or something should eat them. In North America wildlife resource management would be saving some carcasses for carrion and deadfall use, or even feeding rehab animals, but we have the carrion eaters and scavengers for that.
BTW, apparently it's perfectly legal and encouraged to salvage roadkill deer in WA state, and a many other states.
posted by loquacious at 6:23 PM on February 20, 2018 [9 favorites]
Didn't realise lamb wasn't common in the US. Missing out, you lot. And as everyone has said, venison is unremarkable on a UK menu; rabbit is uncommon but can appear without causing a fuss, but horse - that's a no-no. We had a big stushie a few years ago when it got into the supply chain.
Interesting to compare with Sweden, where horse meat is a staple in supermarkets, though somewhat coyly labelled. Hunting anything wild and edible for food is a big part of the culture in the countryside: a friend allows hunter access to his land in return for meaty tithes, and his freezers are well stocked with all God's creatures from elk down.
I try to visit during chanterelle season.
posted by Devonian at 6:25 PM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
Interesting to compare with Sweden, where horse meat is a staple in supermarkets, though somewhat coyly labelled. Hunting anything wild and edible for food is a big part of the culture in the countryside: a friend allows hunter access to his land in return for meaty tithes, and his freezers are well stocked with all God's creatures from elk down.
I try to visit during chanterelle season.
posted by Devonian at 6:25 PM on February 20, 2018 [2 favorites]
k5.user: "It did seem strange that TFA opens with both "wow they are everywhere" and "gotta hunker down and belly crawl through the grass wearing a ghille suit to hunt them." A good deer rifle will hit 150-200 yds away, easily."
I thought gun control in the UK meant hunters were restricted to air rifles and shotguns.
juniper: "I'm bewildered that people's response to a large deer population eating their gardens is to either kill the deer or put up ugly wire/fences. There are plenty of plants/vegetables that are uninteresting to deer. Grow those."
I'm not sure what those plants are but I'm guessing people wouldn't eat them either. Maybe monkshood or something? At any rate the suburban deer around here will eat pretty much any home food garden plant you can name. Also roses and cedar trees.
posted by Mitheral at 6:59 PM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I thought gun control in the UK meant hunters were restricted to air rifles and shotguns.
juniper: "I'm bewildered that people's response to a large deer population eating their gardens is to either kill the deer or put up ugly wire/fences. There are plenty of plants/vegetables that are uninteresting to deer. Grow those."
I'm not sure what those plants are but I'm guessing people wouldn't eat them either. Maybe monkshood or something? At any rate the suburban deer around here will eat pretty much any home food garden plant you can name. Also roses and cedar trees.
posted by Mitheral at 6:59 PM on February 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm bewildered that people's response to a large deer population eating their gardens is to either kill the deer or put up ugly wire/fences. There are plenty of plants/vegetables that are uninteresting to deer. Grow those.
Also rabbits, gophers, snails, locusts and weeds. Most gardeners are reasonably concerned about something eating up all of their plants. I wouldn't want my neighbor stalking deer through my backyard but I certainly don't begrudge her some deer fencing around the garden.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:12 PM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also rabbits, gophers, snails, locusts and weeds. Most gardeners are reasonably concerned about something eating up all of their plants. I wouldn't want my neighbor stalking deer through my backyard but I certainly don't begrudge her some deer fencing around the garden.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:12 PM on February 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm bewildered that people's response to a large deer population eating their gardens is to either kill the deer or put up ugly wire/fences. There are plenty of plants/vegetables that are uninteresting to deer. Grow those.
If you've ever lived with deer, I'm bewildered you would even say this.
I'm not trying to jump all over you, but here's my perspective: They eat basically everything including actual trees, moss and fungus and they can easily jump right over a six foot fence if there's something tasty on the other side.
Depending on what time of the year it is and how hungry they are "tasty" can mean about anything from weeds and grass to an old wrinkly late groundfall apple.
There's also the problem of finding them in your yard or around your house where you and/or the deer can be easily startled by suddenly being face to face in close quarters, and it can be a pretty serious safety issue. We keep repairing the crappy fence here not to keep the dogs in (it doesn't) but to keep the deer from just wandering in willy-nilly and just waiting to be startled as we try to do basic household stuff take the dogs out or take out the trash.
I can't count the number of times I've had a deer bolt at me or past me, or suddenly bolt in front of me while biking or walking, or coming around a corner of a house or a building in town and accidentally startling one and having it bolt off into traffic or straight into a wall or fence.
I have to tiptoe around deer - often a skittish doe and one or more fawns or yearlings - on a daily/weekly basis. If I go for a walk for more than five minutes, I'm going to probably get within 20 feet of a deer, and every time I have to do this whole looking around "ok, where's the rest of you and the kids?" thing because if you don't and you cross between a doe and her fawns or a group, they get even more skittish about having anything between them, and are more likely to bolt through you to rejoin the herd. And I've had does rear up and chuff/stamp at me about a dozen times just trying to go for a walk, and a pissed off doe is not to be trifled with.
There is not a functioning vegetable garden within 100 miles of me that doesn't have deer fencing around it. Some folks around here essentially have deer cages or tunnels lined with bird netting, and then raised beds inside that to help keep away raccoons, squirrels, slugs and rabbits. And, oh, ultrasonic repellers, too, and inflatable owls, and shiny crap to keep the seagulls and crows away. It's probably about as visually appealing to your average suburbanite as a blue tarp over an RV - we have those too - but you get used to it.
Why?
Because people actually want to eat the food they planted and worked on all year because it's part of their sustenance and not just a hobby or ornamental landscaping. It's not because they hate nature or something, not at all. These are people who also will put out unwanted apples and stuff specifically for the deer in winter, so it's not like they truly hate the deer and wish they'd just starve. The same people might not be opposed to eating the deer, either.
Heck, even I've been known to leave out a few old apples or carrots for them.
I'm all for deer and healthy ecosystems, but, man, deer are crazy dumb and a danger to themselves or others. It's like you took all the worst parts about a giraffe, a cow and a hamster and crammed it into one very high strung, skittish animal just large enough to really fuck you up.
posted by loquacious at 8:46 PM on February 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
If you've ever lived with deer, I'm bewildered you would even say this.
I'm not trying to jump all over you, but here's my perspective: They eat basically everything including actual trees, moss and fungus and they can easily jump right over a six foot fence if there's something tasty on the other side.
Depending on what time of the year it is and how hungry they are "tasty" can mean about anything from weeds and grass to an old wrinkly late groundfall apple.
There's also the problem of finding them in your yard or around your house where you and/or the deer can be easily startled by suddenly being face to face in close quarters, and it can be a pretty serious safety issue. We keep repairing the crappy fence here not to keep the dogs in (it doesn't) but to keep the deer from just wandering in willy-nilly and just waiting to be startled as we try to do basic household stuff take the dogs out or take out the trash.
I can't count the number of times I've had a deer bolt at me or past me, or suddenly bolt in front of me while biking or walking, or coming around a corner of a house or a building in town and accidentally startling one and having it bolt off into traffic or straight into a wall or fence.
I have to tiptoe around deer - often a skittish doe and one or more fawns or yearlings - on a daily/weekly basis. If I go for a walk for more than five minutes, I'm going to probably get within 20 feet of a deer, and every time I have to do this whole looking around "ok, where's the rest of you and the kids?" thing because if you don't and you cross between a doe and her fawns or a group, they get even more skittish about having anything between them, and are more likely to bolt through you to rejoin the herd. And I've had does rear up and chuff/stamp at me about a dozen times just trying to go for a walk, and a pissed off doe is not to be trifled with.
There is not a functioning vegetable garden within 100 miles of me that doesn't have deer fencing around it. Some folks around here essentially have deer cages or tunnels lined with bird netting, and then raised beds inside that to help keep away raccoons, squirrels, slugs and rabbits. And, oh, ultrasonic repellers, too, and inflatable owls, and shiny crap to keep the seagulls and crows away. It's probably about as visually appealing to your average suburbanite as a blue tarp over an RV - we have those too - but you get used to it.
Why?
Because people actually want to eat the food they planted and worked on all year because it's part of their sustenance and not just a hobby or ornamental landscaping. It's not because they hate nature or something, not at all. These are people who also will put out unwanted apples and stuff specifically for the deer in winter, so it's not like they truly hate the deer and wish they'd just starve. The same people might not be opposed to eating the deer, either.
Heck, even I've been known to leave out a few old apples or carrots for them.
I'm all for deer and healthy ecosystems, but, man, deer are crazy dumb and a danger to themselves or others. It's like you took all the worst parts about a giraffe, a cow and a hamster and crammed it into one very high strung, skittish animal just large enough to really fuck you up.
posted by loquacious at 8:46 PM on February 20, 2018 [10 favorites]
In parts of Australia we have a similar problem with kangaroos - they are destructive to the ecosystem when present in large numbers and culling them causes intense debate and anger among some people. If you don’t cull them, they eat everything and smaller native herbivores can get pushed out , not to mention the rare flora that gets destroyed. I know people who’ve tried to protect threatened plant species for literally decades, but had very little success until they dealt with the kangaroo overpopulation on their properties.
Kangaroos make very lean and healthy meat, but many people have an aversion to eating the national emblem and it doesn’t help that they don’t really come in the cuts that you get in other meats. It’s now available in many supermarkets so perhaps that will slowly change. Otherwise they mostly get used for pet food.
Deer are a problem in some parts of Australia too, but we don’t generally have the same issues with culling them.
posted by andraste at 12:23 AM on February 21, 2018
Kangaroos make very lean and healthy meat, but many people have an aversion to eating the national emblem and it doesn’t help that they don’t really come in the cuts that you get in other meats. It’s now available in many supermarkets so perhaps that will slowly change. Otherwise they mostly get used for pet food.
Deer are a problem in some parts of Australia too, but we don’t generally have the same issues with culling them.
posted by andraste at 12:23 AM on February 21, 2018
Interesting to compare with Sweden, where horse meat is a staple in supermarkets, though somewhat coyly labelled.
My absolute favourite advertising slogan is Norwegian: "hest er bedst som pålegg" (set to a tune and all). It means, roughly, "horse is best as sandwich filler".
When the horsemeat scandal was running here in the UK, the number of requests for horsemeat at Danish butchers utterly skyrocketed. Several members of my family responded by acquiring, cooking, and proudly putting photos on Facebook of horse steaks.
Long story short: the British are very squeamish about eating horses and I don't get it.
posted by Dysk at 2:31 AM on February 21, 2018
My absolute favourite advertising slogan is Norwegian: "hest er bedst som pålegg" (set to a tune and all). It means, roughly, "horse is best as sandwich filler".
When the horsemeat scandal was running here in the UK, the number of requests for horsemeat at Danish butchers utterly skyrocketed. Several members of my family responded by acquiring, cooking, and proudly putting photos on Facebook of horse steaks.
Long story short: the British are very squeamish about eating horses and I don't get it.
posted by Dysk at 2:31 AM on February 21, 2018
Long story short: the British are very squeamish about eating horses and I don't get it.
If you bought some tasty horse steaks and it turned out someone in the supply chain had lied, and it was actually beef, and oh hey if they lied about that maybe they lied about it being in date, and not containing dangerous chemicals, and being humanely slaughtered and not roadkill, would you be like "oh it's fine, it's just beef, plenty of people eat beef"? I mean, plenty of people here are squeamish about horse (more so than deer or rabbit), but the scandal was about the fraud and health risks, not just that it was horse.
I thought gun control in the UK meant hunters were restricted to air rifles and shotguns.
I believe single-shot rifles are OK assuming you have the right licence. It's semi-automatic rifles which are prohibited above .22 calibre.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:06 AM on February 21, 2018
If you bought some tasty horse steaks and it turned out someone in the supply chain had lied, and it was actually beef, and oh hey if they lied about that maybe they lied about it being in date, and not containing dangerous chemicals, and being humanely slaughtered and not roadkill, would you be like "oh it's fine, it's just beef, plenty of people eat beef"? I mean, plenty of people here are squeamish about horse (more so than deer or rabbit), but the scandal was about the fraud and health risks, not just that it was horse.
I thought gun control in the UK meant hunters were restricted to air rifles and shotguns.
I believe single-shot rifles are OK assuming you have the right licence. It's semi-automatic rifles which are prohibited above .22 calibre.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:06 AM on February 21, 2018
Yes, I know the supply chain scandal was an issue for food safety reasons and all that, but there was and is nevertheless an intense squeamishness about horse meat in Britain. Nobody here was laughing at it and going to the butcher's for horse steaks like they were elsewhere (where a lot of the contaminated products were also on the market).
posted by Dysk at 3:18 AM on February 21, 2018
posted by Dysk at 3:18 AM on February 21, 2018
I thought gun control in the UK meant hunters were restricted to air rifles and shotguns.I believe single-shot rifles are OK assuming you have the right licence. It's semi-automatic rifles which are prohibited above .22 calibre.
From TFA, said two things:
- "Julien, my friend with the rifle..."
- "Thousands just for the basic equipment: a £600 rifle, a £1,500 scope. A moderator to muffle the gunshot."
Perhaps author was wrong about hunting w/ a rifle (and it was a shotgun?) but that's what drove my wondering about why they need sneak up on the deer (esp if you're using $3k optics .. or are optics heavily VAT/taxed in the UK ? I know optics are usually more than your gun, but .. )
(I left the suppressor alone -- assumed that moderator is UK version thereof -- but that's also surprising)
edit to add: most friends w/ deer rifles are bolt-action, not semi-auto. (Or black powder, so single-shot)
posted by k5.user at 6:04 AM on February 21, 2018
Quick translation: the closest north American relative to the European red deer is the elk. These are not the garden pests that bother everyone.
That is a good reminder. Interestingly, they can interbreed with elk, but are considered different species. The Scottish red deer are much smaller than elk (and smaller than continental red deer), more the size of mule deer, but if they behave like elk then I can see why hunting them in a treeless landscape requires so much camouflage and sneaking around.
On the plus side, many people prefer elk meat, so if they did escalate the culling and sold or donated the meat, there would be some very good eating.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on February 21, 2018
That is a good reminder. Interestingly, they can interbreed with elk, but are considered different species. The Scottish red deer are much smaller than elk (and smaller than continental red deer), more the size of mule deer, but if they behave like elk then I can see why hunting them in a treeless landscape requires so much camouflage and sneaking around.
On the plus side, many people prefer elk meat, so if they did escalate the culling and sold or donated the meat, there would be some very good eating.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:51 AM on February 21, 2018
TIL I learned that this deer population menacing Scotland are actually the size of our North American elk/wapati. Just to put that in perspective, the whitetail deer, the most common deer east of the Rockies weighs in at an average 150 lbs for the male and 120 lbs for the female. West of the Rockies the most common dear is the mule deer, which weighs in at an average of 225 lbs for the male, and 150 lbs for the female.
Now you take elk, that's a whole new ball game. Those suckers are huge and are rather more aggressive than other animals in the family Cervidae. I think they're second in size only to moose, and if you've ever had the misfortune of being close enough to a moose to make a human/moose size comparison, well, I hope you bought lottery tickets after. Assuming you lived or was not critically injured.
The average weight of a male elk is 725 lbs, and the average weight for females is 550 lbs. Hitting a whitetail deer in a car at freeway speeds will usually only result in car damage. Hitting a mule deer at freeways speeds will smush your car quite a bit and you stand a good chance of it coming through your windshield and injuring you, albeit most of the time not very seriously. Hitting an elk at freeway speeds will most assuredly total your vehicle, and will injure you, guaranteed. Seat belts and air bags do not do a damn THING to protect you from 725 lbs of of solidly muscled elk. In every car vs elk wreck I've ever seen, the elk has usually torn the car roof off at least half way, if not rolled it completely back. Taking everything from the bottom of the headrest on up and putting it somewhere it shouldn't be. Gruesome.
Also, if these Scottish "deer" are as aggressive as North American ones are, for the love of jeebus do NOT try to get close to them because you wanted a better pic or selfie, or because you think you're a friend towards all animals. I used to see this happen all the time, especially with LA film crews I used to work with. They'd walk up to a buffalo, or a moose, or an elk, or only slightly less dangerous, mule deer. One of our assistant directors once got tossed like a doll by an adolescent male moose, after he ran up to it trying "to be one with nature." He flew at least twenty feet through the air, and the only thing that saved him from a further goring was him screaming like an infant while flying through the air, and then crying like a scared child when he landed on the ground, after having his flight prematurely terminated by a very solid pine tree. That moose had probably never heard a noise like that in its young life and assumed that it was an alien invasion, and goddamnit, he wasn't sticking around for some anal probing. Off he fled, leaving me rolling on the ground laughing (again) at another individual's suffering, all the while getting dirty looks from people who were probably next in line for some nature fondling.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Now you take elk, that's a whole new ball game. Those suckers are huge and are rather more aggressive than other animals in the family Cervidae. I think they're second in size only to moose, and if you've ever had the misfortune of being close enough to a moose to make a human/moose size comparison, well, I hope you bought lottery tickets after. Assuming you lived or was not critically injured.
The average weight of a male elk is 725 lbs, and the average weight for females is 550 lbs. Hitting a whitetail deer in a car at freeway speeds will usually only result in car damage. Hitting a mule deer at freeways speeds will smush your car quite a bit and you stand a good chance of it coming through your windshield and injuring you, albeit most of the time not very seriously. Hitting an elk at freeway speeds will most assuredly total your vehicle, and will injure you, guaranteed. Seat belts and air bags do not do a damn THING to protect you from 725 lbs of of solidly muscled elk. In every car vs elk wreck I've ever seen, the elk has usually torn the car roof off at least half way, if not rolled it completely back. Taking everything from the bottom of the headrest on up and putting it somewhere it shouldn't be. Gruesome.
Also, if these Scottish "deer" are as aggressive as North American ones are, for the love of jeebus do NOT try to get close to them because you wanted a better pic or selfie, or because you think you're a friend towards all animals. I used to see this happen all the time, especially with LA film crews I used to work with. They'd walk up to a buffalo, or a moose, or an elk, or only slightly less dangerous, mule deer. One of our assistant directors once got tossed like a doll by an adolescent male moose, after he ran up to it trying "to be one with nature." He flew at least twenty feet through the air, and the only thing that saved him from a further goring was him screaming like an infant while flying through the air, and then crying like a scared child when he landed on the ground, after having his flight prematurely terminated by a very solid pine tree. That moose had probably never heard a noise like that in its young life and assumed that it was an alien invasion, and goddamnit, he wasn't sticking around for some anal probing. Off he fled, leaving me rolling on the ground laughing (again) at another individual's suffering, all the while getting dirty looks from people who were probably next in line for some nature fondling.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 8:43 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
There are people who are totally up for reintroducing wolves (and bears!) to the UK and working towards it being possible. I've no idea whether they're eccentrics and dreamers or if it's a realistic prospect.
In terms of "feeding venison to the poor" - culturally I can see it being slightly more acceptable in Scotland than other places, as there are probably a higher proportion of people who've had it here than elsewhere. But it would still require a bit of a cultural leap for a lot of people, and foodbanks probably don't have the time or inclination to try and manage that leap.
Foodbanks are run by volunteers, on a shoestring, and are much more likely to deal in shelf-stable goods than fresh meat. Cans, packets etc. can be easily stacked, stored for a long time, everyone knows how to prepare them, most people (including fussy kids) will eat them.
Fresh goods have to be turned around quickly, can't be stored overnight unless you have access to refrigeration, which costs money. So while I can imagine a local Tesco offering a tray of chicken breasts occasionally might be do-able if you know people will take them within the hour, anything that makes fresh food less likely to be taken is an issue. Introducing something like venison, which fewer people have experience of cooking or eating, and which you often need to cook in particular ways to keep it tender enough to eat, is immediately less practical because more people will be hesitant to take it, and if it's not snapped up straightaway it has to be binned.
And that's without accounting for the fact that there's no established supply chain or method of getting the meat from the hillside, butchered and to large number of consumers, the way there is with supermarket meat. If there was enough money and time available to build that process from scratch, I suspect most foodbanks would say that (especially given the issue of refrigeration) they'd rather take that cash and spend it on tins of meat pie and beans, to fill the stomachs of the maximum number of people.
None of which is to say that it's impossible. But I can't see it happening unless one of the landowners or some other philanthropist decided they were determined to make it happen and pour their money into it. And even then, you might still find that most people, standing in line with three hungry kids, would just take a Fray Bentos pie that they knew the kids would eat.
posted by penguin pie at 8:57 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
In terms of "feeding venison to the poor" - culturally I can see it being slightly more acceptable in Scotland than other places, as there are probably a higher proportion of people who've had it here than elsewhere. But it would still require a bit of a cultural leap for a lot of people, and foodbanks probably don't have the time or inclination to try and manage that leap.
Foodbanks are run by volunteers, on a shoestring, and are much more likely to deal in shelf-stable goods than fresh meat. Cans, packets etc. can be easily stacked, stored for a long time, everyone knows how to prepare them, most people (including fussy kids) will eat them.
Fresh goods have to be turned around quickly, can't be stored overnight unless you have access to refrigeration, which costs money. So while I can imagine a local Tesco offering a tray of chicken breasts occasionally might be do-able if you know people will take them within the hour, anything that makes fresh food less likely to be taken is an issue. Introducing something like venison, which fewer people have experience of cooking or eating, and which you often need to cook in particular ways to keep it tender enough to eat, is immediately less practical because more people will be hesitant to take it, and if it's not snapped up straightaway it has to be binned.
And that's without accounting for the fact that there's no established supply chain or method of getting the meat from the hillside, butchered and to large number of consumers, the way there is with supermarket meat. If there was enough money and time available to build that process from scratch, I suspect most foodbanks would say that (especially given the issue of refrigeration) they'd rather take that cash and spend it on tins of meat pie and beans, to fill the stomachs of the maximum number of people.
None of which is to say that it's impossible. But I can't see it happening unless one of the landowners or some other philanthropist decided they were determined to make it happen and pour their money into it. And even then, you might still find that most people, standing in line with three hungry kids, would just take a Fray Bentos pie that they knew the kids would eat.
posted by penguin pie at 8:57 AM on February 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Here in the PNW there's some organization that cans surplus salmon for food banks, and it's probably pretty challenging even with a central processing facility and wide area distribution.
Around here venison would probably go over well if only for the "I always wondered what one of those leggy bastards tasted like" novelty factor, but it would be really challenging to process and distribute in any traceable and hygienic way.
If I was going to be in charge of such a program I'd figure out how to dry it and smoke it en masse, and render fats and such into pemmican or suet. Package it in vacuum bags with a dessicant just like jerky, and now you have something easy to transport and store. I'd also probably try to find a Quinalt or other First Nations liaison to talk about "whole deer" use or rendering and see if there was any interest in that.
And that being said, this would be really hard to pull off with any real efficiency. We're not talking about a herd of docile cattle and a factory farm operation.
You'd have to figure out how to cull, collect and consolidate a lot of carcasses, how to fly them out of the wilds to a central location, how to staff enough experienced volunteers to butcher and render carcasses.
On the smallest of scales of the kind of culling we're talking about in the article, we're looking at an organization and unpaid effort the size of a small to medium sized food business with about ten to twenty trained full time staff, or maybe as much as a fifty part time volunteers.
posted by loquacious at 2:40 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Around here venison would probably go over well if only for the "I always wondered what one of those leggy bastards tasted like" novelty factor, but it would be really challenging to process and distribute in any traceable and hygienic way.
If I was going to be in charge of such a program I'd figure out how to dry it and smoke it en masse, and render fats and such into pemmican or suet. Package it in vacuum bags with a dessicant just like jerky, and now you have something easy to transport and store. I'd also probably try to find a Quinalt or other First Nations liaison to talk about "whole deer" use or rendering and see if there was any interest in that.
And that being said, this would be really hard to pull off with any real efficiency. We're not talking about a herd of docile cattle and a factory farm operation.
You'd have to figure out how to cull, collect and consolidate a lot of carcasses, how to fly them out of the wilds to a central location, how to staff enough experienced volunteers to butcher and render carcasses.
On the smallest of scales of the kind of culling we're talking about in the article, we're looking at an organization and unpaid effort the size of a small to medium sized food business with about ten to twenty trained full time staff, or maybe as much as a fifty part time volunteers.
posted by loquacious at 2:40 PM on February 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
penguin pie: "There are people who are totally up for reintroducing wolves (and bears!) to the UK and working towards it being possible."
It's amazing what a difference it has made in Yellowstone.
loquacious: "Here in the PNW there's some organization that cans surplus salmon for food banks"
This could be done with venison as well though canned meat like that, at least around here, is considered decided weird at best and probably wouldn't be a popular item at food banks. But as you said this is a pretty tough logistical problem as a solution to a problem, that if successful, would be short term.
posted by Mitheral at 7:35 PM on February 21, 2018
It's amazing what a difference it has made in Yellowstone.
loquacious: "Here in the PNW there's some organization that cans surplus salmon for food banks"
This could be done with venison as well though canned meat like that, at least around here, is considered decided weird at best and probably wouldn't be a popular item at food banks. But as you said this is a pretty tough logistical problem as a solution to a problem, that if successful, would be short term.
posted by Mitheral at 7:35 PM on February 21, 2018
Yeah, in most places in the US I don't think venison would go well even if you had the infrastructure for it.
I think at my particular local food bank people are remarkably adventurous. We get a lot of weird random things from local gardens and the co-op and other places. And proteins in general tend to be in thin supply at most food banks short of rice and beans.
And for a lot of these things it has a lot to do with presentation and preparation, just like food people prefer to buy. If you just hack up a bunch of venison and grind it into chunks and can it, it'll probably be pretty unappetizing, just like any other low cost tinned meat or food.
I personally wouldn't say no to a whole lot of lean protein in the form of jerky or something.
posted by loquacious at 7:41 PM on February 21, 2018
I think at my particular local food bank people are remarkably adventurous. We get a lot of weird random things from local gardens and the co-op and other places. And proteins in general tend to be in thin supply at most food banks short of rice and beans.
And for a lot of these things it has a lot to do with presentation and preparation, just like food people prefer to buy. If you just hack up a bunch of venison and grind it into chunks and can it, it'll probably be pretty unappetizing, just like any other low cost tinned meat or food.
I personally wouldn't say no to a whole lot of lean protein in the form of jerky or something.
posted by loquacious at 7:41 PM on February 21, 2018
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