Androgyny Shouldn’t Just Be for Thin People
February 28, 2018 2:54 AM Subscribe
A step forward in body diversity makes it all the more noticeable when yours is the shape that’s still not being served.
Some of the brands mentioned in the article, varying size ranges:
Bravissimo Clothing
Bethnals
Androgyny
Gender Free World
BBC
Stussy
Asphalt Yacht Club
Stuzo
Ayehommes
Vintage Up To Here
Some of the brands mentioned in the article, varying size ranges:
Bravissimo Clothing
Bethnals
Androgyny
Gender Free World
BBC
Stussy
Asphalt Yacht Club
Stuzo
Ayehommes
Vintage Up To Here
People come in so many shapes, and most clothing lines accommodate so few shapes. I get frustrated and yell about how disappointed I am that we didn't end up in a 70s-style jumpsuits-for-all-type future, but even if we had, lots of us probably still wouldn't feel like our bodies were accommodated.
I also wish there was more conversation about legs, thighs, and butts, tbh. 'Shapewear' and tailoring can both be expensive and only go so far when everything seems too short or too long for you, when you have curves in the wrong places or lack curves in the right places. Pants are a forever-struggle for me, as someone who will never have long, lean thighs.
posted by halation at 4:21 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I also wish there was more conversation about legs, thighs, and butts, tbh. 'Shapewear' and tailoring can both be expensive and only go so far when everything seems too short or too long for you, when you have curves in the wrong places or lack curves in the right places. Pants are a forever-struggle for me, as someone who will never have long, lean thighs.
posted by halation at 4:21 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Bravissimo (the UK one, at least) pisses me right off, because they bang on about stylish and supportive bras for bigger chested people- which is great and neccessary- but their knickers and all their clothing range only go up to a UK 18- so, brilliant, I can buy your expensive bras, but no way can I have a matching set of underwear or a well fitted top from there because, fuck you fatty.
And also, yes, pregnancy clothes choices are the worst.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:04 AM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
And also, yes, pregnancy clothes choices are the worst.
posted by threetwentytwo at 5:04 AM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
This article, and the photos, also reinforce the idea that "androgyny" and smashing the gender binary" means "menswear for all", which I'd hoped we were moving past, at least in queer spaces. The links are all to clothes for masculine folks, which is great-- I'm also a transmasculine person who has trouble finding buttondowns that fit well-- but when people talk about androgynous clothing, they still almost never mean larger sizes of heels, or dresses that look great on people with broader shoulders, or anything for femmes, and that's a bummer.
Expressing femininity as someone assigned male at birth is for the most part a lot more dangerous and stigmatized than being masculine when you were assigned female at birth, and it's so boring that queer clothing lines are still almost all for transmasculine folks.
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:13 AM on February 28, 2018 [84 favorites]
Expressing femininity as someone assigned male at birth is for the most part a lot more dangerous and stigmatized than being masculine when you were assigned female at birth, and it's so boring that queer clothing lines are still almost all for transmasculine folks.
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:13 AM on February 28, 2018 [84 favorites]
Yeah I’d love to see a discussion of androgyny that doesn’t assume masculinity as some sort of default “neutral.” And I say this as an (apparently barely?) MOC-presenting lesbian.
(I think my “style,” such as it is, could probably described as “if Charlie Kelly had to find 32F bras in only particular brands,” and let me tell you, the temptation to just duct tape these fuckers up is always present)
posted by schadenfrau at 5:23 AM on February 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
(I think my “style,” such as it is, could probably described as “if Charlie Kelly had to find 32F bras in only particular brands,” and let me tell you, the temptation to just duct tape these fuckers up is always present)
posted by schadenfrau at 5:23 AM on February 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
And IMO the reason that AFAB and/or transmasculine folks in fashionable body-conscious menswear* is relatively acceptable in mainstream society is because we're read as women doing a Marlene Dietrich. We're keeping up with fashion, usually in bright colors, and wearing tight clothes (like, my big failure as a fashion queer is that I actually hate tight clothes and can't relax in them). It's possible to look at these styles and think of them as part of a kicky, fun tradition of "women's" dress, sort of like Cyndi Lauper but with no skirts. This is particularly true when you're talking about thin white people with broadly average features.
This isn't our fault, and it doesn't mean that people should stop wearing what they want if they can access it. At the same time, it's frustrating.
*Because that's what it is; no one talks about the long tradition of AFAB and transmasculine people wearing boring dadwear, especially boring dadwear that isn't bodyconscious. If I tried to wear on-trend men's clothes I'd be out of luck due to cost and fit, but because I am content to work a sort of nineties preppie look, eBay is my constant friend.
I add that boring dadwear is far more likely to attract negative attention, because if you're dealing with someone who is right-wing but doesn't care about style, they're more likely to be all "wacky kids and their dumb fashions" about contemporary stuff and "look at that fucking [slur], the nerve of her walking in here" about boring dadwear" - misgendering in both cases, but with a different valence.
posted by Frowner at 5:26 AM on February 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
This isn't our fault, and it doesn't mean that people should stop wearing what they want if they can access it. At the same time, it's frustrating.
*Because that's what it is; no one talks about the long tradition of AFAB and transmasculine people wearing boring dadwear, especially boring dadwear that isn't bodyconscious. If I tried to wear on-trend men's clothes I'd be out of luck due to cost and fit, but because I am content to work a sort of nineties preppie look, eBay is my constant friend.
I add that boring dadwear is far more likely to attract negative attention, because if you're dealing with someone who is right-wing but doesn't care about style, they're more likely to be all "wacky kids and their dumb fashions" about contemporary stuff and "look at that fucking [slur], the nerve of her walking in here" about boring dadwear" - misgendering in both cases, but with a different valence.
posted by Frowner at 5:26 AM on February 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
This speaks to my heart, as someone who's a mere size 14 and androgynous. My partner is a luscious curvy femme and makes a lot of her clothes because she's big enough she can't get a lot of things she likes in her size. Almost all of the trans folks I know struggle with getting clothes because of the assumptions around who is wearing what. I feel like sometimes the most radical thing I could do as a queer androgyne is up my sewing skills.
I do want to plug the shop I got my swimwear from, Rebirth Garments, which does most spandex-based stuff in a style that I'd describe mostly as club clothes / lingerie, but for queer people with disabilities who want to be visible and fabulous. The cutie running the shop is awesome and makes clothes that are specifically for certain disabilities (seams on the outside, add an insulin pump, hijab with magnets, mermaid tail lingerie....) and also designs stuff specifically to be cute for larger sizes.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:27 AM on February 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
I do want to plug the shop I got my swimwear from, Rebirth Garments, which does most spandex-based stuff in a style that I'd describe mostly as club clothes / lingerie, but for queer people with disabilities who want to be visible and fabulous. The cutie running the shop is awesome and makes clothes that are specifically for certain disabilities (seams on the outside, add an insulin pump, hijab with magnets, mermaid tail lingerie....) and also designs stuff specifically to be cute for larger sizes.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:27 AM on February 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
The article does note this: Though it’s often used to describe a stripped-down masculine aesthetic, androgyny of course can — and should — mean a wide spectrum of styles, embracing different mixtures of masculinity and femininity.
Again, not the focus of the (really good) piece, but at least this was acknowledged.
posted by hijinx at 5:32 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Again, not the focus of the (really good) piece, but at least this was acknowledged.
posted by hijinx at 5:32 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
For androgynous underpants, I have recently become quite enamored of TomboyX - they sell good stuff from 'traditional' women's briefs to no-fly boxer briefs and several styles in between, and they have sizes up to 4X (their 3X corresponds to a women's underpants size 10)
While not quite in spec, I - a very fat woman - was able to get swimwear from the same folks I get my comfy bras from: Decent Exposures. Not cheap, but very well made. (I got a camisole in swim fabric along with their swim shorts).
posted by rmd1023 at 5:36 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
While not quite in spec, I - a very fat woman - was able to get swimwear from the same folks I get my comfy bras from: Decent Exposures. Not cheap, but very well made. (I got a camisole in swim fabric along with their swim shorts).
posted by rmd1023 at 5:36 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
TomboyX's underwear is so fun, and it also always makes me sad about how much easier it is to find dude-styled underwear for people without dicks than it is to find cute, functional femmey underwear for people with dicks, but in case anyone's looking for that, Rogue and Worthy and Origami Customs do a good job making underwear that can be customized for folks with different junk situations. Bluestockings Boutique also does a pretty good job of having cool underthings for all, and some of their women's styles have fitting notes about how much coverage the underwear has in the crotch zone. (And they also have a sex worker discount, which is pretty rad.)
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:44 AM on February 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by ITheCosmos at 5:44 AM on February 28, 2018 [13 favorites]
Yeah I’d love to see a discussion of androgyny that doesn’t assume masculinity as some sort of default “neutral.” And I say this as an (apparently barely?) MOC-presenting lesbian.
As a gay cis man who is called flamboyant (for my age...a lot of the young'uns are much better at this now), the idea of "androgynous" for us means men's-tailored suits in patterns or a bold color, or men's-tailored shirts in pastels or maybe a cute men's-style hat that isn't a fedora. It's very difficult to find things that aren't just guys' clothes or outright drag wear for people who like to dress beyond masculine but not into full women's wear.
I have a good number of what I call my "Bea Arthur caftan collection," and they're mostly just long cardigans I've picked up in the men's department of (of all places) Forever 21.
posted by xingcat at 6:06 AM on February 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
As a gay cis man who is called flamboyant (for my age...a lot of the young'uns are much better at this now), the idea of "androgynous" for us means men's-tailored suits in patterns or a bold color, or men's-tailored shirts in pastels or maybe a cute men's-style hat that isn't a fedora. It's very difficult to find things that aren't just guys' clothes or outright drag wear for people who like to dress beyond masculine but not into full women's wear.
I have a good number of what I call my "Bea Arthur caftan collection," and they're mostly just long cardigans I've picked up in the men's department of (of all places) Forever 21.
posted by xingcat at 6:06 AM on February 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
I've always thought of androgyny as "nonbinary, but without politics or self-determination" and I've never felt especially drawn to that. As a trans femme, I'm really used to people talking about my fashion separate from those other things.
posted by yaymukund at 6:14 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by yaymukund at 6:14 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
and that's not meant as a dig against androgyny in any way. It's more about how people perceive androgyny. Maybe androgyny is really deep and interesting, but I guess I've met a lot of people who love bowie but don't think about trans politics, you know?
posted by yaymukund at 6:16 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by yaymukund at 6:16 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
TomboyX has been my underwear go-to for the past year or so, and they're the first underwear I've had in years that has been comfy and happy-making, not just functional, but I hate recommending them to friends because they're just so spendy. Would love to know if someone's making a cheaper version. (Right now I just suggest watching their sale section for one's preferred size/fabric.)
As a fat queer cis woman, I don't necessarily aspire to androgyny per se, but my ideal wardrobe would have a lot more range of gender presentation in it. I end up in sort of nondescript J. Jill supplemented with Old Navy, and it's fine, but it's still femmier than I'd like to read, given other options that fit me. (Which isn't even to ask for the real dream, options I could try on in an actual store instead of the mail-order-and-return-because-we-don't-want-fat-people-being-seen-in-our-store thing.)
posted by Stacey at 6:20 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
As a fat queer cis woman, I don't necessarily aspire to androgyny per se, but my ideal wardrobe would have a lot more range of gender presentation in it. I end up in sort of nondescript J. Jill supplemented with Old Navy, and it's fine, but it's still femmier than I'd like to read, given other options that fit me. (Which isn't even to ask for the real dream, options I could try on in an actual store instead of the mail-order-and-return-because-we-don't-want-fat-people-being-seen-in-our-store thing.)
posted by Stacey at 6:20 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
welcome to my long standing crisis of finding a plain black floor length skirt with a little bit of a flip, or r eally any skirt, i read as a man, but i just want a nice jersey skirt
posted by PinkMoose at 6:22 AM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 6:22 AM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
This is something I occasionally struggle with, as somebody who's tall, fat and has an apparently masculine body (and frankly looks better with a beard) but identifies as nonbinary. There are very few ways in which I can express neutral adequately, that don't simply get read as masculine... unless I push it too far toward femme and get misread completely differently in a way I'm just not comfortable with.
I've kind of come to accept that... because the Venn diagram of suitable for work, compatible with my size/shape, affordable, and comfortable is a really small space already. I would love to have some more casual, button down short sleeve shirts that are not fucking plaid and actually fit, but apparently these don't exist except in rare mail order cases (and I think I own one mail-order shirt after trying and sending back about 8).
I don't have the body I want (and frankly can never have it) and I can't have the clothing I want either, if I even knew what that was, so I have to just settle for not being naked.
posted by Foosnark at 6:22 AM on February 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
I've kind of come to accept that... because the Venn diagram of suitable for work, compatible with my size/shape, affordable, and comfortable is a really small space already. I would love to have some more casual, button down short sleeve shirts that are not fucking plaid and actually fit, but apparently these don't exist except in rare mail order cases (and I think I own one mail-order shirt after trying and sending back about 8).
I don't have the body I want (and frankly can never have it) and I can't have the clothing I want either, if I even knew what that was, so I have to just settle for not being naked.
posted by Foosnark at 6:22 AM on February 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
Foosnark, soliditary!!!
posted by PinkMoose at 6:25 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by PinkMoose at 6:25 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
What’s really weird is how neutral clothing defaults to masculine.
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:27 AM on February 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:27 AM on February 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
Androgyny, the company, wants $125 for a flannel shirt. If that's all I want out of fashion--and I'm going to be honest here, that is mostly what I want out of fashion, not so much because of my basically-absent gender identity but because the last time I genuinely cared what I was wearing was circa 1997--then for the most part I can do it a lot cheaper by ordering men's shirts from Eddie Bauer, which happily accommodates me well beyond the sizes that Androgyny does for less than half that if I find things on sale, and there are other brands which can accommodate if you need past a men's 3XL.
What I'd really love is just standard 2XL men's cut flannel shirts in colors that don't seem to have been through a focus group to ensure they don't threaten the masculinity of anybody who wears them, but--I manage.
posted by Sequence at 6:33 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
What I'd really love is just standard 2XL men's cut flannel shirts in colors that don't seem to have been through a focus group to ensure they don't threaten the masculinity of anybody who wears them, but--I manage.
posted by Sequence at 6:33 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
In re button-front shirts: This will sound absolutely bizarre, but I have had strangely good luck with American Eagle. They go up to a 52-54 chest, there are actual stores (although I have done eBay and mailorder) and they tend to have, you know, not the most cutting-edge but usually a selection of fairly cute non-plaids. Quality is all over the place, but generally not terrible, and the oxfordcloth ones are fairly soft so they drape, which makes them either read somewhat less manly or fit better on folks who don't have cis-dude-width shoulders. (They had a pink short sleeved one with a lightning bolt print last summer - the color didn't work for me but it was pretty cute.)
Also (and know that I love you, metafilter, because I am risking my source): the less exuberant Hawaiian shirts on eBay. If you look for Burma Bibas and to a lesser extent Tori Richard and Reyn Spooner, you can find cotton short-sleeved shirts with unusual geometric and small floral prints in a range of colors. The sizes go up to 3xl and 4xl and the fit is at least predictable. There are also some cute vintage ones. The ones in smaller, more interesting patterns tend to be work-appropriate (for a casual workplace).
posted by Frowner at 6:35 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also (and know that I love you, metafilter, because I am risking my source): the less exuberant Hawaiian shirts on eBay. If you look for Burma Bibas and to a lesser extent Tori Richard and Reyn Spooner, you can find cotton short-sleeved shirts with unusual geometric and small floral prints in a range of colors. The sizes go up to 3xl and 4xl and the fit is at least predictable. There are also some cute vintage ones. The ones in smaller, more interesting patterns tend to be work-appropriate (for a casual workplace).
posted by Frowner at 6:35 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I mean...I think there are some practical considerations, too. Mass production will mean ill-fitting clothes for most people, but especially women. The more curves, the more variation. And clothes that actually fit pretty much need to be custom made, and that is expensive as fuck. The bra situation alone makes this pretty clear — there’s no real way out of the conundrum. A bra that actually fits you will be super expensive in both price and, crucially, in time and effort invested to find what actually fits you. (And then it might change!)
But I think this might be true as far as style, goes, too, to the extent that available styles are also dictated by what can be easily mass produced.
Like so many other things, the freedom to express yourself or be who you are in this context seems to be something you have to buy.
Christ that’s depressing.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:39 AM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
But I think this might be true as far as style, goes, too, to the extent that available styles are also dictated by what can be easily mass produced.
Like so many other things, the freedom to express yourself or be who you are in this context seems to be something you have to buy.
Christ that’s depressing.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:39 AM on February 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
Also, for averageish people in the US: if you look at Gap women's button fronts (on eBay for me, possibly on the site for you) they go through phases of having straight-fitting button-front shirts in pretty or cute prints. (I have a cat print one from like five years ago, and I used to have a teacup print one that I sold because the color didn't suit). They go up through 2xl (so would probably fit a men's L or small XL). The key part with those is that they're cut very, very similar to men's shirts except shorter with narrower shoulders, so if you were looking for a button-front that would work on someone with a flatter chest who wanted a closer fit, that would be an option. (Wearing those was what prompted me to switch to "men's" shirts - I liked them but I wanted a more generous fit and thicker material.)
posted by Frowner at 6:40 AM on February 28, 2018
posted by Frowner at 6:40 AM on February 28, 2018
"Bea Arthur caftan collection,"
Also this should have its own section in any department store
posted by schadenfrau at 6:41 AM on February 28, 2018 [20 favorites]
Also this should have its own section in any department store
posted by schadenfrau at 6:41 AM on February 28, 2018 [20 favorites]
(And if I can say one more thing about "men's" shirts for any AFAB person who is thinking of trying them but has not: With "women's" shirts, when they say "52 chest" they mean "no more than 52 chest, and it will also pull". With "men's" shirts, if the cut is not especially slim/on-trend, they mean "if your chest is 52 you will have room to spare". So it's worth trying things on if you think you're at or slightly above the top of the size range.)
posted by Frowner at 6:43 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:43 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
welcome to my long standing crisis of finding a plain black floor length skirt with a little bit of a flip, or r eally any skirt, i read as a man, but i just want a nice jersey skirt
I have this skirt in several colors and it's pretty ok. I'm 5'7"/185/buttified and the XL reaches to the floor on me easy. I generally hike them to my bellybutton.
posted by phunniemee at 6:50 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have this skirt in several colors and it's pretty ok. I'm 5'7"/185/buttified and the XL reaches to the floor on me easy. I generally hike them to my bellybutton.
posted by phunniemee at 6:50 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
What’s really weird is how neutral clothing defaults to masculine.
That's because masculinity is defined more by the absence of femininity than its own thing.
Any time something becomes too popular with women, it's suddenly "unmanly." There's some pushback against it, but American Toxic Male Culture cuts down anything that comes even close to "feminine" like flowy/light scarves, much less skirts.
So to be "neutral," you have to cleave to masculine (pants, shirts, jackets), because cleaving toward feminine isn't "neutral" anymore, it's "feminine."
As a cis man, I'm low-key bitter that even wearing fun colors, much less wearing something more feminine is a "statement" rather than just a sartorial choice.
posted by explosion at 7:14 AM on February 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
That's because masculinity is defined more by the absence of femininity than its own thing.
Any time something becomes too popular with women, it's suddenly "unmanly." There's some pushback against it, but American Toxic Male Culture cuts down anything that comes even close to "feminine" like flowy/light scarves, much less skirts.
So to be "neutral," you have to cleave to masculine (pants, shirts, jackets), because cleaving toward feminine isn't "neutral" anymore, it's "feminine."
As a cis man, I'm low-key bitter that even wearing fun colors, much less wearing something more feminine is a "statement" rather than just a sartorial choice.
posted by explosion at 7:14 AM on February 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
Explosion, the phenomena you are experiencing is the notion of "marked" and "unmarked" clothing and bodies. Simply put, "unmarked" == masc and "marked" == "femme" the idea being that marked bodies with marked clothes are considered to be "in service" to unmarked bodies in unmarked clothes.
Anything that is lumped into "unmarked" moving into "marked" territory is BAD BAD BAD BAD and the word "BAD" itself comes from the word "Baeddel" which means "womanish man": https://www.google.com/search?q=bad+etymology
So you are literally going against the most powerful grain of society by trying to wear marked clothing as a man.
Hugs offered, it truly truly sucks.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:45 AM on February 28, 2018 [21 favorites]
Anything that is lumped into "unmarked" moving into "marked" territory is BAD BAD BAD BAD and the word "BAD" itself comes from the word "Baeddel" which means "womanish man": https://www.google.com/search?q=bad+etymology
So you are literally going against the most powerful grain of society by trying to wear marked clothing as a man.
Hugs offered, it truly truly sucks.
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:45 AM on February 28, 2018 [21 favorites]
(to put it more concisely, "marked" and "unmarked" are fashion industry terms used to delineate masculine fashion from feminine fashion, I'm not using academic terms here but industrial ones)
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:48 AM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:48 AM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Bea Arthur caftan collection
The British version being the Margot Leadbetter caftan collection.
I once tried making a Tumblr blog of all of Margot's caftans but started it during a period of upheaval in my life and only ended up making one post. It was a gorgeous caftan though.
posted by elsietheeel at 7:49 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
The British version being the Margot Leadbetter caftan collection.
I once tried making a Tumblr blog of all of Margot's caftans but started it during a period of upheaval in my life and only ended up making one post. It was a gorgeous caftan though.
posted by elsietheeel at 7:49 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Caftans aside, this is something that hits home really hard but that I don't talk about a lot. I have an extreme hourglass figure and cannot wear the masculine clothes that I want. Even when I wear anything that would be considered "neutral" or "androgynous" it comes off as feminine. It's one of the reasons that I started performing my gender as more extreme feminine with New Look style dresses with big skirts and the like, rather than feeling unhappy in "androgynous" or masculine clothing. (Unhappy because the clothing doesn't fit and I feel like I look ridiculous, not unhappy because the clothing isn't "me". I would be happiest in that clothing if it fit properly.)
posted by elsietheeel at 7:53 AM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by elsietheeel at 7:53 AM on February 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Frowner, thanks for the suggestions.
posted by Foosnark at 8:38 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Foosnark at 8:38 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
In re button-front shirts: This will sound absolutely bizarre, but I have had strangely good luck with American Eagle. They go up to a 52-54 chest, there are actual stores (although I have done eBay and mailorder) and they tend to have, you know, not the most cutting-edge but usually a selection of fairly cute non-plaids
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Non... what, now? Non... plaid?
I'm not ready for this.
posted by Sequence at 8:38 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Non... what, now? Non... plaid?
I'm not ready for this.
posted by Sequence at 8:38 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I feel like sometimes the most radical thing I could do as a queer androgyne is up my sewing skills.
This. I could alter shirts so they actually fit, make the wide-legged 40s style trousers I crave, and run up some skirts for my partner. I haven't used my sewing machine in years, but I think it's time to pull it out of the closet and start experimenting.
posted by neko at 9:00 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
This. I could alter shirts so they actually fit, make the wide-legged 40s style trousers I crave, and run up some skirts for my partner. I haven't used my sewing machine in years, but I think it's time to pull it out of the closet and start experimenting.
posted by neko at 9:00 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
"...all things that are so very difficult to find in size Titties For Days."
Love this.
posted by twilightlost at 9:26 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Love this.
posted by twilightlost at 9:26 AM on February 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've always thought of androgyny as "nonbinary, but without politics or self-determination" and I've never felt especially drawn to that. A
Harsh! For me it’s always been political and self determined, way before I ever heard the term nonbinary, and I’m strongly invested in trans rights and issues. I see myself as aggressively not performing gender, and while I’m not really sure how I feel about calling myself nonbinary, agender, or neutrois, androgynous is comfortable for me. I do love David Bowie though.
Currently I’m making plans to do super queer embroidery on my jeans. We’ll see how that goes.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:40 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Harsh! For me it’s always been political and self determined, way before I ever heard the term nonbinary, and I’m strongly invested in trans rights and issues. I see myself as aggressively not performing gender, and while I’m not really sure how I feel about calling myself nonbinary, agender, or neutrois, androgynous is comfortable for me. I do love David Bowie though.
Currently I’m making plans to do super queer embroidery on my jeans. We’ll see how that goes.
posted by bile and syntax at 9:40 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
PinkMoose: Decent exposures also sells skirts. I had one of theirs for years and loved it. Also, has pockets. (Also, not cheap, but made to order and they take (many) requests)
posted by rmd1023 at 9:43 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 9:43 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I've been very happy with the Decent Exposures skirts. Their range of fabric colors/prints isn't huge but if you just want a black skirt, they're great. (Get the pockets. Always pay the extra few bucks for the pockets.)
posted by Stacey at 9:57 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 9:57 AM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've always thought of androgyny as "nonbinary, but without politics or self-determination"
I don't see this as particularly harsh, because I'm like--"agender" is the appropriate term for my internal gender identity or lack thereof. I'm aware of this. But I also have exactly zero energy to deal with this being a thing, and care precisely not at all about pronouns being used for me as long as I know who's being talked about, and career-wise feel like I *need* to at least be caucusing with the Women in Tech community, so. I don't love, philosophically, that "somewhat masculine" is considered to be the general default for these things. If I had the inclination to be political about this, I wouldn't dress like I do. But right now, I don't, and instead "default" is exactly what I'm looking for, and so I am sitting here in a t-shirt, a flannel, jeans and Chucks and that works for me just fine. I have all kinds of support for other people who make other choices! I just don't have the energy to add "destroying the gender binary" to the things I have to worry about when I'm getting dressed in the morning in the precisely thirty minutes between when I drag myself out of bed and when I sprint out the door.
I am both in favor of more clothing options of all sorts being available for all types of bodies, and personally pretty invested in sources for plaid shirts. (And non-plaid? Maybe? I am conflicted. I am simultaneously joking and really not joking.)
posted by Sequence at 10:43 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't see this as particularly harsh, because I'm like--"agender" is the appropriate term for my internal gender identity or lack thereof. I'm aware of this. But I also have exactly zero energy to deal with this being a thing, and care precisely not at all about pronouns being used for me as long as I know who's being talked about, and career-wise feel like I *need* to at least be caucusing with the Women in Tech community, so. I don't love, philosophically, that "somewhat masculine" is considered to be the general default for these things. If I had the inclination to be political about this, I wouldn't dress like I do. But right now, I don't, and instead "default" is exactly what I'm looking for, and so I am sitting here in a t-shirt, a flannel, jeans and Chucks and that works for me just fine. I have all kinds of support for other people who make other choices! I just don't have the energy to add "destroying the gender binary" to the things I have to worry about when I'm getting dressed in the morning in the precisely thirty minutes between when I drag myself out of bed and when I sprint out the door.
I am both in favor of more clothing options of all sorts being available for all types of bodies, and personally pretty invested in sources for plaid shirts. (And non-plaid? Maybe? I am conflicted. I am simultaneously joking and really not joking.)
posted by Sequence at 10:43 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm a lot like you sequence except I do a "cis woman presenting kinda femme-like a little skater-punk" thing because I do not have the will or courage to enforce my preferred pronouns of "none, no pronouns ever, please, no, that means NO PRONOUNS". "She/her" is in the buckshot scatter of my gender feels so I can roll with it though I do feel awkward as hell caucusing with the Women In Tech group at work. Apparently they see me a "defaulted into cis" and are polite as hell about me feeling awkward and always give me space to feel weird being in the same room with them while letting me know that I am absolutely embraced and welcomed.
I just never, ever dare bring up the nongender stuff because I fear that's worse for my career aspirations than tattooing zebra print on my face.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:00 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I just never, ever dare bring up the nongender stuff because I fear that's worse for my career aspirations than tattooing zebra print on my face.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:00 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
By "without politics," I mean if you told me someone were for androgynous politics I wouldn't know where to begin. But nonbinary politics is clearer to me because it means you agree there's a binary system and you want to escape or smash the constraints it places upon us and you're probably trans.
By "without self-determination," I mean that I hear people freely label others as androgynous without knowing their politics or how they identify themselves and nobody bats an eye.
I really don't mean to be harsh or pass judgment. Someone upthread asked about how we can decenter masculinity and I was just trying to think through how androgyny feels so different from my own nonbinary femininity even though this article sorta uses the words interchangeably.
posted by yaymukund at 11:11 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
By "without self-determination," I mean that I hear people freely label others as androgynous without knowing their politics or how they identify themselves and nobody bats an eye.
I really don't mean to be harsh or pass judgment. Someone upthread asked about how we can decenter masculinity and I was just trying to think through how androgyny feels so different from my own nonbinary femininity even though this article sorta uses the words interchangeably.
posted by yaymukund at 11:11 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't personally conflate androgyny with non-binary, I feel personally like it belongs to AFAB people that I can't really claim it. However, I can move between cis, trans and nonbinary in a single day. It's a privilege I have for certain, but it's also weird to fall precisely in between all these social gender categories we have and be able to read into any of them without feeling like I belong to any of them.
The category of Androgyny which exists in my head seems very resistant to letting non-AFAB into the category and when I'm read into androgyny I feel super sketchy, like I'm cheating or something. Related to the article, I also can see how being softer and bigger than the average androgynous fashion symbol makes me feel like an outsider to androgyny as well.
So I kinda feel like of all the different ways gender is discussed, lived and experienced, androgyny is the farthest away, yet most desirable gender category that I could be read into.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:26 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
The category of Androgyny which exists in my head seems very resistant to letting non-AFAB into the category and when I'm read into androgyny I feel super sketchy, like I'm cheating or something. Related to the article, I also can see how being softer and bigger than the average androgynous fashion symbol makes me feel like an outsider to androgyny as well.
So I kinda feel like of all the different ways gender is discussed, lived and experienced, androgyny is the farthest away, yet most desirable gender category that I could be read into.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:26 AM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
The "Billie" cut at Gender Free World: it is cut for the boobs. They didn't stick a boob pocket on it. THEY DIDN'T DO THE DUMB TINY USELESS POCKET that floats on one's boob like a sad joke.
Oh god I can't afford them but I think I love them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:42 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh god I can't afford them but I think I love them.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:42 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Androgyny being viewed as an AFAB exclusive thing is comparatively new, isn't it? Like, thinking back to before the 90s, every androgynous icon I can think of quickly is male (David Bowie, Prince, Little Richard, etc, etc).
posted by Dysk at 11:45 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:45 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Thanks for the links.
I've always understood androgyny as a fashion rather than an identity per se. The linked article feels very "not for me" because it leans heavily toward wanting to be butch, or dabble in dapper, which is fine because it's the author's journey, but "not for me." There's also an element of youthfulness that shouts "not for you" at me.
The nonbinaryness of my life primarily gets laid out in therapy and SFF right now, which is really the only place where I can see myself be without the threat of gender-related violence. My day-to-day uniform is business casual that I treat as a uniform just as much as when I was working food service or tech support. And a bus incident a few weeks ago reminded me that it's still potentially unsafe to be sussed as queer so I'm not certain how I'm going to balance that. The uniform is becoming less comfortable with each year, but I'm struggling with the body image issues that my alternatives likely will be read between Titus Andromedon and Divine, and I need to overcome my own internalized heterosexism and cissexism in that area.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:54 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I've always understood androgyny as a fashion rather than an identity per se. The linked article feels very "not for me" because it leans heavily toward wanting to be butch, or dabble in dapper, which is fine because it's the author's journey, but "not for me." There's also an element of youthfulness that shouts "not for you" at me.
The nonbinaryness of my life primarily gets laid out in therapy and SFF right now, which is really the only place where I can see myself be without the threat of gender-related violence. My day-to-day uniform is business casual that I treat as a uniform just as much as when I was working food service or tech support. And a bus incident a few weeks ago reminded me that it's still potentially unsafe to be sussed as queer so I'm not certain how I'm going to balance that. The uniform is becoming less comfortable with each year, but I'm struggling with the body image issues that my alternatives likely will be read between Titus Andromedon and Divine, and I need to overcome my own internalized heterosexism and cissexism in that area.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:54 AM on February 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Androgyny being viewed as an AFAB exclusive thing is comparatively new, isn't it?
I'm trying to find a way to tie this to women being able to wear men's clothing without being read as queer (women have been able to wear pants for x number of decades, Diane Keaton in Annie Hall, blah blah blah) but men aren't really able to do the same, but I can't come up with a way to do it well, so this is just me throwing out the idea and hoping that someone can flesh it out more.
And now we know why they call Topamax "Dope-a-max". *sigh*
posted by elsietheeel at 12:07 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to find a way to tie this to women being able to wear men's clothing without being read as queer (women have been able to wear pants for x number of decades, Diane Keaton in Annie Hall, blah blah blah) but men aren't really able to do the same, but I can't come up with a way to do it well, so this is just me throwing out the idea and hoping that someone can flesh it out more.
And now we know why they call Topamax "Dope-a-max". *sigh*
posted by elsietheeel at 12:07 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Like, thinking back to before the 90s, every androgynous icon I can think of quickly is male (David Bowie, Prince, Little Richard, etc, etc).
Hm, Annie Lennox and Grace Jones were androgynous icons I admired in the 80s. Katharine Hepburn in tons of slouchy menswear.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:20 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Hm, Annie Lennox and Grace Jones were androgynous icons I admired in the 80s. Katharine Hepburn in tons of slouchy menswear.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:20 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it just seems like a category that was more open to men in the past than it is now.
posted by Dysk at 12:32 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 12:32 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm a trans man and sometimes I miss wearing fun colored blouses and such. I was never remotely femme but my wardrobe had a much bigger range. Yes, I could wear those things, but I also like my face intact and unbloodied. The guys I know that can get away with wearing feminine things (e.g. nail polish) are - in my experience - bigger guys that aren't perceived as vulnerable.
posted by AFABulous at 1:13 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 1:13 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
this male presenting body wishes there were the kind of cuts and patterns available in women's clothing - tights with floral prints, things that drape or hang - i guess Hawaiian shirts give guys a chance to wear flowers while remaining masculine
posted by kokaku at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2018
posted by kokaku at 2:29 PM on February 28, 2018
Does anyone with tits for days have suggestions about binders? Especially ones that might work for someone with asthma? Am I just better off layering sports bras and padding up the rest?
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:04 PM on February 28, 2018
posted by I'm Not Even Supposed To Be Here Today! at 4:04 PM on February 28, 2018
I had somewhat the opposite reaction from the author in that growing up, my "fatness"/curves in Malaysia (where I was often XX+++++L) meant that I COULDN'T wear dresses, because none fuckin' fit. They were all for small, slim, flat people - the opposite of me. I too have Titties for Days, but as a teenager i wore a lot of butch-esque geek clothing (always pants) because I was so frustrated by my lack of femme options that I went FUCK FEMININITY IT'S UNFEMINIST WHATEVER I AM ANDROGYNOUS FOREVERRRR
I didn't start wearing dresses till my mid 20s and now they make up a good chunk of my wardrobe, mostly because a lot of them are a lot more comfortable to wear (and finally I'm in a country where stuff in my size is normal). But I've found that the queer "androgynous" community thinks I'm too "Normie" to be non-binary, while the straight world calls me Sir even in a dress and otherwise doesn't know what gender I am because I don't look Typical Desi Lady and my hair is weird but I have curves...oh, must be Foreign.
posted by divabat at 4:04 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I didn't start wearing dresses till my mid 20s and now they make up a good chunk of my wardrobe, mostly because a lot of them are a lot more comfortable to wear (and finally I'm in a country where stuff in my size is normal). But I've found that the queer "androgynous" community thinks I'm too "Normie" to be non-binary, while the straight world calls me Sir even in a dress and otherwise doesn't know what gender I am because I don't look Typical Desi Lady and my hair is weird but I have curves...oh, must be Foreign.
posted by divabat at 4:04 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
maybe we should just start calling ourselves mefites and let the world figure that out
posted by kokaku at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2018
posted by kokaku at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2018
(but is it meee-fite or meh-fite?)
posted by kokaku at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by kokaku at 4:09 PM on February 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
By "without politics," I mean if you told me someone were for androgynous politics I wouldn't know where to begin. But nonbinary politics is clearer to me because it means you agree there's a binary system and you want to escape or smash the constraints it places upon us and you're probably trans.
I've always been politicized about my sense of self and wanted to smash the constraints associated with other people's expectations. I've had no choice - as a kid, my family, most of the adults I encountered, and most other kids were very insistent that because I'm AFAB I had to be femme and like boys, and working to create space to exist was vital. I have had the word "androgynous" for all my life, but have only been encountering the word "nonbinary" for the last probably not even ten years, and I'm over 40 so there's a "kids these days" element to it - what's the word going to be in another ten years? I tend to see "nonbinary" as meaning "a mix of genders" where for me my deal is that gender is a thing other people are into that I don't really get. "Agender" would be closer but I guess I don't really like the word. I don't identify as trans because to me that word doesn't mean people like me who are just opting out of gender but rather people who are actually transitioning and I don't want to make life harder for trans folks by co-opting their identity.
I'm also old enough that the distinction between bisexual and pansexual seems patronizing to pretty much all the bi folks I've ever known, myself included, but that's another rant.
None of this is to pick a fight at all, but just to say where I'm coming from on it. I am, as usual, in a space that is not a space. And I wish I were better dressed for it.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've always been politicized about my sense of self and wanted to smash the constraints associated with other people's expectations. I've had no choice - as a kid, my family, most of the adults I encountered, and most other kids were very insistent that because I'm AFAB I had to be femme and like boys, and working to create space to exist was vital. I have had the word "androgynous" for all my life, but have only been encountering the word "nonbinary" for the last probably not even ten years, and I'm over 40 so there's a "kids these days" element to it - what's the word going to be in another ten years? I tend to see "nonbinary" as meaning "a mix of genders" where for me my deal is that gender is a thing other people are into that I don't really get. "Agender" would be closer but I guess I don't really like the word. I don't identify as trans because to me that word doesn't mean people like me who are just opting out of gender but rather people who are actually transitioning and I don't want to make life harder for trans folks by co-opting their identity.
I'm also old enough that the distinction between bisexual and pansexual seems patronizing to pretty much all the bi folks I've ever known, myself included, but that's another rant.
None of this is to pick a fight at all, but just to say where I'm coming from on it. I am, as usual, in a space that is not a space. And I wish I were better dressed for it.
posted by bile and syntax at 4:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah, it just seems like a category that was more open to men in the past than it is now.
Oh yes, I see what you mean. The socially acceptable modes of expression of masculinity do seem much more limited (and dull) now than in the 60s-80s.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:58 PM on February 28, 2018
Oh yes, I see what you mean. The socially acceptable modes of expression of masculinity do seem much more limited (and dull) now than in the 60s-80s.
posted by Squeak Attack at 4:58 PM on February 28, 2018
I don't identify as trans because to me that word doesn't mean people like me who are just opting out of gender but rather people who are actually transitioning and I don't want to make life harder for trans folks by co-opting their identity.
You should identify however you like, but for the record I don't know any trans folks that would have an issue with you calling yourself trans. It's not coopting anything, I'm not an Extra Official Trans Person because I've medically and legally transitioned. If you have "passing privilege," then use it, that's all we ask.
posted by AFABulous at 5:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
You should identify however you like, but for the record I don't know any trans folks that would have an issue with you calling yourself trans. It's not coopting anything, I'm not an Extra Official Trans Person because I've medically and legally transitioned. If you have "passing privilege," then use it, that's all we ask.
posted by AFABulous at 5:36 PM on February 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
I really hoped for more from this article because I sold way too much time looking time researching clothing to wear in professional settings - I want to look sharp and butch despite being pear shaped. There are so many companies launching, seeing expensive shirts in this area, but what about the pants! I do have a couple of suits from Wild Fang, and they're ok, but there pants situation is dire.
I also think the discussion about the narrow window of androgyny is spot on. It's bullshit that gender neutral defaults to masculine, but that's something that will take lots of work to exorcise. I hope we do. When I lament that brands like Wild Fang are to femme for my tastes (seriously, the lack of notched lapels on the Empowerment Suits drives me crazy), I remind myself that my preference is just my preference of gender expression and lots of people are fine with what they're selling. I just really get annoyed when people say Katherine Hepburn wearing "menswear" is totally androgynous even though it's clearly a woman wearing clothing inspired by menswear but tailored for a woman. What about women who want to wear menswear that just fits them but isn't the lady version of anything? (That's like half of my AskMes.)
Related, I think there's a lot of work to go the other way. What about men who want to be a bit femme? I know some brands do cater to that, but most are for the sightly masc woman.
posted by kendrak at 9:16 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I also think the discussion about the narrow window of androgyny is spot on. It's bullshit that gender neutral defaults to masculine, but that's something that will take lots of work to exorcise. I hope we do. When I lament that brands like Wild Fang are to femme for my tastes (seriously, the lack of notched lapels on the Empowerment Suits drives me crazy), I remind myself that my preference is just my preference of gender expression and lots of people are fine with what they're selling. I just really get annoyed when people say Katherine Hepburn wearing "menswear" is totally androgynous even though it's clearly a woman wearing clothing inspired by menswear but tailored for a woman. What about women who want to wear menswear that just fits them but isn't the lady version of anything? (That's like half of my AskMes.)
Related, I think there's a lot of work to go the other way. What about men who want to be a bit femme? I know some brands do cater to that, but most are for the sightly masc woman.
posted by kendrak at 9:16 PM on February 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't identify as trans because to me that word doesn't mean people like me who are just opting out of gender but rather people who are actually transitioning and I don't want to make life harder for trans folks by co-opting their identity.
You should do whatever is best for you obviously, but I agree with AFABulous. I'd go further and say truscum can fuck right off (CW: descriptions of harassment and medical system transphobia).
posted by yaymukund at 5:32 AM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
You should do whatever is best for you obviously, but I agree with AFABulous. I'd go further and say truscum can fuck right off (CW: descriptions of harassment and medical system transphobia).
posted by yaymukund at 5:32 AM on March 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
for the record I don't know any trans folks that would have an issue with you calling yourself trans.
I do, hence my reluctance.
If you have "passing privilege," then use it, that's all we ask.
I assume you mean in the sense that I'm always trying to promote - privilege is like a shield, so pick it up and use it like a battering ram? Or do you mean something else?
posted by bile and syntax at 5:54 AM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I do, hence my reluctance.
If you have "passing privilege," then use it, that's all we ask.
I assume you mean in the sense that I'm always trying to promote - privilege is like a shield, so pick it up and use it like a battering ram? Or do you mean something else?
posted by bile and syntax at 5:54 AM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Does anyone with tits for days have suggestions about binders?
My tits are maybe just for hours instead of days, but the company I get binders from, GC2B, has up to size 5XL (47-52" chest in their size chart). They also have 5 different shades of 'nude' as well as black, white, and a few colors. Not sure how wearing one would affect asthma.
The other company I've purchased from is F2M Binders (an offshoot of underworks). I haven't checked all of their products since they sizing charts are individual for each product, but at least one binder has a 3XL that gives chest size as 52-55".
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:00 AM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
My tits are maybe just for hours instead of days, but the company I get binders from, GC2B, has up to size 5XL (47-52" chest in their size chart). They also have 5 different shades of 'nude' as well as black, white, and a few colors. Not sure how wearing one would affect asthma.
The other company I've purchased from is F2M Binders (an offshoot of underworks). I haven't checked all of their products since they sizing charts are individual for each product, but at least one binder has a 3XL that gives chest size as 52-55".
posted by carrioncomfort at 8:00 AM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think my encounter with "nonbinary" came from Bornstein in the early 90s, along with "genderqueer" which was Feinberg about that time. The current bi vs. pan arguments have been personally painful since at least half of the bi community I came out into was trans or GNC in different ways, and I feel the current state of the argument reflects a shift to more ciscentrism in LGB circles in the last decade. I'm a wee bit militant on Feinberg's claim that what we now describe as nonbinary was always within the sphere of historic LGBTQ communities, it's just that we're trying to claim our own non-pejorative and non-medicalized names for that.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:26 AM on March 1, 2018
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:26 AM on March 1, 2018
privilege is like a shield, so pick it up and use it like a battering ram? Or do you mean something else?
Yeah, that's pretty close. People - trans people included - need to do a better job at defending and uplifting non-passing trans people. Being cisnormative should not be the default or only option.
posted by AFABulous at 11:27 AM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's pretty close. People - trans people included - need to do a better job at defending and uplifting non-passing trans people. Being cisnormative should not be the default or only option.
posted by AFABulous at 11:27 AM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd go further and say truscum can fuck right off
That's a good article. I'll admit I used to be a shithead but much of that was borne from insecurity and a crab-in-a-bucket mentality. Cisnormative, medically-transitioning people got a teensy bit of positive attention from larger society and a lot of us tried to pull up the ladder behind us. As if being trans is just SO MUCH FUN. Medically-transitioning folks face a whole lot of gatekeeping. We should know better than to do it to others. Someone else's gender identification has no bearing on me. Some of the concern was that cis people would further restrict access to healthcare and accommodations because of the increase in trans kids, but it's the cis adults causing the problem, not the kids.
posted by AFABulous at 11:35 AM on March 1, 2018
That's a good article. I'll admit I used to be a shithead but much of that was borne from insecurity and a crab-in-a-bucket mentality. Cisnormative, medically-transitioning people got a teensy bit of positive attention from larger society and a lot of us tried to pull up the ladder behind us. As if being trans is just SO MUCH FUN. Medically-transitioning folks face a whole lot of gatekeeping. We should know better than to do it to others. Someone else's gender identification has no bearing on me. Some of the concern was that cis people would further restrict access to healthcare and accommodations because of the increase in trans kids, but it's the cis adults causing the problem, not the kids.
posted by AFABulous at 11:35 AM on March 1, 2018
non-medicalized names for that.
I personally would love to see no medicalization of any group of people.
like, people with bodies (assuming posthumanity is coming) need medical care. Get the care you need. The care does not create or define or limit you. It can expand you and help you along the journey of being and becoming. In my mind HRT defines a person's identity about as much as PrEP defines a person's sexual orientation. Each allows a person to more fully live their life with less fear and violence. So why then are trans bodies implicitly medicalized?
(reaches into my grab bag of policing women's bodies and patriarchy and misogyny and transmisogyny and puts together a doohickey societal mechanism to describe why)
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:37 AM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I personally would love to see no medicalization of any group of people.
like, people with bodies (assuming posthumanity is coming) need medical care. Get the care you need. The care does not create or define or limit you. It can expand you and help you along the journey of being and becoming. In my mind HRT defines a person's identity about as much as PrEP defines a person's sexual orientation. Each allows a person to more fully live their life with less fear and violence. So why then are trans bodies implicitly medicalized?
(reaches into my grab bag of policing women's bodies and patriarchy and misogyny and transmisogyny and puts together a doohickey societal mechanism to describe why)
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:37 AM on March 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's not just bodies, it's minds as well. Blanchard and Bailey still keep popping up as influential. The manner in which we conceive ourselves ends up within the boundaries of abnormal psychology.
Neutral language also serves as an alternative to sexualized language, which is another area where we always existed but are limited by the traditional roles and scripts of kink.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:15 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Neutral language also serves as an alternative to sexualized language, which is another area where we always existed but are limited by the traditional roles and scripts of kink.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:15 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
AFABulous, I’d do that regardless. Our worth is not tied to blending in with cis straight norms and ideas about what might be “proper”.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:12 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by bile and syntax at 2:12 PM on March 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
"I have had the word "androgynous" for all my life, but have only been encountering the word "nonbinary" for the last probably not even ten years, and I'm over 40 so there's a "kids these days" element to it - what's the word going to be in another ten years?"
"I'm a wee bit militant on Feinberg's claim that what we now describe as nonbinary was always within the sphere of historic LGBTQ communities, it's just that we're trying to claim our own non-pejorative and non-medicalized names for that."
i guess i have 0.00000000000 nostalgia for historic lgbtq community because those changes in language are what allow me to talk about racism and intersectionality and i wasn't gay until i could reconcile those things
posted by yaymukund at 3:13 AM on March 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
"I'm a wee bit militant on Feinberg's claim that what we now describe as nonbinary was always within the sphere of historic LGBTQ communities, it's just that we're trying to claim our own non-pejorative and non-medicalized names for that."
i guess i have 0.00000000000 nostalgia for historic lgbtq community because those changes in language are what allow me to talk about racism and intersectionality and i wasn't gay until i could reconcile those things
posted by yaymukund at 3:13 AM on March 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's not really nostalgia. On the one hand, I'm confronted with one flavor of historical revisionism that says that we're having a "peak trans" moment and that this is all a fad backed by young adult cis and straight women who are appropriating LGBTQ politics for personal benefits. On the other hand, I'm confronted with another flavor of historical revisionism which says I didn't exist as a bisexual queer person in the 1990s when I came out the first time because bi is a binary and cis-only identity. And then there's "drop the T."
I sure as heck don't want to live in the 1990s again, but I have a history as both bisexual and genderqueer in that decade, which includes experiences with explicit biphobia (another thing that gets argued to nonexistence) in that decade. And I certainly don't want to live in the 1970s, 1920s, or the 19th century, but there is a cultural history that suggests that nonbinary people have always been a part of LGBTQ communities.
Generally though, I'm all into the language change as long as long as those arguments don't erase my experiences with systemic anti-bisexual prejudice, or are used to treat my gender troubles as a gambit for getting mythical "social justice" points.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:16 AM on March 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
I sure as heck don't want to live in the 1990s again, but I have a history as both bisexual and genderqueer in that decade, which includes experiences with explicit biphobia (another thing that gets argued to nonexistence) in that decade. And I certainly don't want to live in the 1970s, 1920s, or the 19th century, but there is a cultural history that suggests that nonbinary people have always been a part of LGBTQ communities.
Generally though, I'm all into the language change as long as long as those arguments don't erase my experiences with systemic anti-bisexual prejudice, or are used to treat my gender troubles as a gambit for getting mythical "social justice" points.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:16 AM on March 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
yeah i get that too. im not saying things are rosy now.
i was just hoping white people would give half a shit about race when making these sorts of grand evaluations or talking about kids these days
posted by yaymukund at 5:04 AM on March 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
i was just hoping white people would give half a shit about race when making these sorts of grand evaluations or talking about kids these days
posted by yaymukund at 5:04 AM on March 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
a fad backed by young adult cis and straight women who are appropriating LGBTQ politics for personal benefits.
What personal benefits? All of the social rejection and danger?
because bi is a binary and cis-only identity.
This is why I find the whole bi vs pan thing patronizing: to me it seems like a distinction without a difference. For the bi folks I've always been around, it just serves to stigmatize bi identities rather than acknowledging that while "bi" means "two", it's just a word. Like how Lesbos is an island and gay means happy, no matter gay depression rates. Bi folks define themselves without regard to this word and are often attracted to a huge range of identities, and it's so bullshit for monosexuals to be like "oh well bisexuality is cissexist and transphobic" like those issues never exist in the gay and lesbian communities.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:05 AM on March 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
What personal benefits? All of the social rejection and danger?
because bi is a binary and cis-only identity.
This is why I find the whole bi vs pan thing patronizing: to me it seems like a distinction without a difference. For the bi folks I've always been around, it just serves to stigmatize bi identities rather than acknowledging that while "bi" means "two", it's just a word. Like how Lesbos is an island and gay means happy, no matter gay depression rates. Bi folks define themselves without regard to this word and are often attracted to a huge range of identities, and it's so bullshit for monosexuals to be like "oh well bisexuality is cissexist and transphobic" like those issues never exist in the gay and lesbian communities.
posted by bile and syntax at 5:05 AM on March 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
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When yours is one of the shapes still not being served. The problem of poor availability of clothes is not unique to larger ladies. As a tall, long armed, broad shouldered, largely flat chested woman, there ain't exactly a fuck of a lot of options for me either.
posted by Dysk at 4:12 AM on February 28, 2018 [5 favorites]