And you thought bridge and tunnel people were bad

April 4, 2018 4:37 PM

Why several trainloads of New Yorkers' poop has been stranded for months in Alabama is the question on everyone's mind in the little town of Parrish. New York Magazine calls the train's contents "New York's shittiest export."
posted by GuyZero (43 comments total)

Well that's just completely unacceptable.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:56 PM on April 4, 2018

In trade for Jeff Sessions.
posted by rhizome at 5:04 PM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]

They could be the Jenkem capital of the world with all that brown gold just sitting there.
posted by dr_dank at 5:08 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

I believe I speak for everybody here when I say— oh, shit!
posted by Quackles at 5:10 PM on April 4, 2018

I wished I lived in a world where this made it into the list of the worst things happening in America but instead we have a world where an unfortunate small town ends of smelling like a latrine for no reason they have anything to do with seems quaint and not that worrying.
posted by GuyZero at 5:14 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

'Cause out on the edge of fartness
There rides the Poop Train
Oh, Poop Train take this country

posted by The otter lady at 5:15 PM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]

What a load of crap!
posted by pangolin party at 5:21 PM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile, both the Environmental Protection Agency and the Alabama Department of Environmental Management have told Hall the waste poses no hazard for residents, she said.

Fuck that.

It smells like shit. Rotting shit. Next to people's homes.

Those officials can have the trainloads of rotting shit sit in their fucking back yard.

Why the hell is this a joke?

[edited to italicize quotation]
posted by yesster at 5:27 PM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]

Hey, that's my dad's home town, previously home of the Parrish Purple Tornadoes football team.

Yes this is news there and the smell is... Bad. But it is honestly a downtrodden, tumbleweed-esque mining town long gone bust. (Seriously, street view does it justice pretty well, this is all that's left standing of the old Parrish bank (it's the vault) that, along with everything else, has moved away or, at least 'up to the highway). It basically consists of a gas station or two, a small chain grocery, and... Well alot of general decay, poverty, drugs, old strip mines/clear-cuts that didn't get reclaimed, and racism.

And apparently shit. Traincars of shit. Nowhere to go but up from here.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:41 PM on April 4, 2018 [7 favorites]

So, uh. Is Milwaukee the only waste management district that recycles human waste into fertilizer? I figured that would be fairly common since it sounds relatively straightforward even compared to shipping it off to be buried.
posted by Kyol at 5:47 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

To be clear, I'm not saying any town deserves shit like this (ba dum ching), what I mean is that I expect this communtiy to have near zero resources or leverage to utilize here.

I didn't know it was NY shit however. I figured it was mismanagement out of nearby Birmingham or something.

Jesus Christ Northerners, I can't figure out what is worse, y'all having to freight your poop leavings umpteen states away or us Alabamians who, circuitously I admit, say "Well, yea, I guess we'll take it if you're payin'".
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:47 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

Apparently they took it to Colorado until 2012 where it was used as fertilizer. But the transportation costs eventually make that too expensive.

In the good ole days NYC just dumped it in the ocean.
posted by GuyZero at 5:53 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

And, final comment before I suck all the, fecal material tainted though it may be, air out of the room:

I would like to theorize that you are less likely to find a more "free enterprise" supporting, Jesus pushing (but not in the help the poor way), Trump is mah kinda president, black people looked upon as the lesser, fuck the environment let's get paid locale if you tried.

So, calibrate your concern levels accordingly as your dispostion requires of you. I'm not that concerned if that helps clarify things at all.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:55 PM on April 4, 2018 [3 favorites]

I don't think everything needs to be through the lens of partisan politics. The train company shouldn't have left the cars there, they should have found an alternative. It's a crummy situation for the residents and they shouldn't have to deal with it. It'd be cool if there was a way to use it as fertilizer like somebody upthread mentioned.
posted by gucci mane at 5:58 PM on April 4, 2018 [8 favorites]

No, no one deserves this.

Especially once the flies really start up once the weather warms up a bit. It's a health issue.
posted by mochapickle at 5:58 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

Well maybe they *are* assholes but even assholes have rights. And presumably there are children here, and even some folks whose politics I would tend to agree with. But that doesn't really matter, people are people and nobody should have to put up with this.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:03 PM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]

Again, not saying anyone deserves it, but part of me sees the logic in the fact that people who voted for this very thing to be a business proposition and are all for laissez fair government in all things now have it, quite literally, dumped in their laps, I mean doorsteps. Well, it's poetic in a shitty sort of way.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:04 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]

And, full personal probing engaged, part of my lack of concern/empathy is just a general exhaustion with coming to terms with the knowledge that that area/people are beyond any real economic, or moral really, recovery tipping point.

Reminder for those playing the home game: NPR's amazing series S-town was recorded one or two counties over in a, slightly anyway, more prosperous but similar environment.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:08 PM on April 4, 2018

"The longer this stuff sits on the railroad on those tracks and this material is just sitting there and is cooking in the sun, how long before that material becomes a health hazard?"

actually if it gets hot enough, all the health hazard goes away!
about ~150-160F actually. possibly in southern usa in a metal container in the sun? totally sterilized...
posted by danjo at 6:15 PM on April 4, 2018 [10 favorites]

I don't think everything needs to be through the lens of partisan politics.

Nor do I. Except where it's as near a textbook case as you can get of "I didn't think the leopards would eat my face" says individual in Face Eating Leopards hat. The things the kids face are indeed lamentable.

Walker county also went for Moore and voted against a sales tax that would have saved them from bankruptcy as well.
posted by RolandOfEld at 6:25 PM on April 4, 2018 [4 favorites]

I'll go on the record of saying that recycling the solids from waste treatment plants makes a lot of sense. How do you think plants grow?

Poop Train
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:33 PM on April 4, 2018

It's a crummy situation for the residents and they shouldn't have to deal with it. It'd be cool if there was a way to use it as fertilizer like somebody upthread mentioned.

The articles aren't very clear, but it may well be ready to be used as fertilizer. It's not very cost effective to ship raw sewage as it is mostly water (we use gravity-powered pipelines called sewers), so this has to be treated sewage. The second link calls it sludge and later biosolids, which are two different treated sewage products. Calling it "poop" or "feces" is misleading but people have an emotional reaction to human waste so... it happens. Plus, poop jokes are funny.

There's a VICE report on NYC's wastewater system (ep2season6, You Don't Know Shit) and I think I remember that they kiln-dry their sludge, so I'm guessing these train cars are full of biosolids. If that's the case, then they are ready to be used for fertilizer and soil amendments in non-food agriculture like landscaping plants or turf grass. My uninformed guess is that these car loads of sewage product are destined for use as soil in the topper that goes on a full, decommissioned landfill site and the operator bought too much or isn't quite ready to top the site. It makes no sense to put this in a landfill, the landfill paid to ship it down there and they're paying for this sub-optimal temporary storage.

When I worked at a wastewater treatment facility the biosolids we produced were sold to a forestry company in western Georgia to be used as soil amendments in the softwood lumber industry. After the treated effluent (the clean "wastewater" flowing back into the river), it was the least stinky product or process at the plant. Yeah, it sucks for the people who live nearby and it sure doesn't smell like roses, but I'm willing to bet that much more dangerous freight rolls past their town every day.
posted by peeedro at 6:56 PM on April 4, 2018 [12 favorites]

So, uh. Is Milwaukee the only waste management district that recycles human waste into fertilizer?

Nope. Meet Bay State Fertilizer:

Bay State Fertilizer is a 100% recycled fertilizer product made from solids recovered from the wastewater of 43 Massachusetts communities served by the Massachusetts Water Resources Authority. These solids are rich in organic matter and nutrients. ... These safe, easy-to-use granules now bring new life to lawns and gardens while keeping Massachusetts waterways clean.

posted by adamg at 7:03 PM on April 4, 2018

I'm willing to bet that much more dangerous freight rolls past their town every day.

Yup. There are two large coal plants (Miller and Gorgas) right down the road and coal byproducts (both from pre and post combustion) are heavily trafficed in this area and that stuff is far from safe.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:15 PM on April 4, 2018

in case you were worried that NYC was poop-train deprived
posted by BungaDunga at 7:15 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

So, uh. Is Milwaukee the only waste management district that recycles human waste into fertilizer?

both Bay State Fertilizer and Milorganite are just the dried microbes leftover after processing the water part of wastewater. There other solids that are also leftover and need to be disposed of.
posted by Dr. Twist at 7:41 PM on April 4, 2018

In the good ole days NYC just dumped it in the ocean.

Plenty of cities still do this, and considerably more have combined storm and sanitary sewers that dump huge amounts of untreated waste whenever there is too much rain for the system.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:50 PM on April 4, 2018

Wow, and we also have about (allegedly) 239 pounds of tied up around the Virginia, Maryland border. Do better, NYC!
posted by codacorolla at 8:00 PM on April 4, 2018 [2 favorites]

Can we please stop with the "bridge and tunnel people" jibes? Sneering at "bridge and tunnel people" is basically making fun of anyone who's not rich enough to grow up in Manhattan
posted by Umami Dearest at 8:13 PM on April 4, 2018 [6 favorites]

And, full personal probing engaged, part of my lack of concern/empathy is just a general exhaustion with coming to terms with the knowledge that that area/people are beyond any real economic, or moral really, recovery tipping point.

I am thinking of Abraham bargaining with the Lord: would you spare them for the sake of forty-five good people? For thirty? For ten?

That sounds like I'm being snarky or pompous with you. I really don't mean to be. I just get deeply sad when I think of trying to protect innocent citizens from bad policies chosen by other citizens.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:21 PM on April 4, 2018 [1 favorite]

Seattle's biosolids loop the Loop and go to Eastern Washington to fertilize, for instance, wheat, which comes back to Seattle. And possibly goes on to feed you, too.
posted by clew at 8:50 PM on April 4, 2018

I just get deeply sad when I think of trying to protect innocent citizens from bad policies chosen by other citizens.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here but I think, in a roundabout way, these people did, insofar as any of us really choose our paths in life of course, choose this. Their (read my) state environmental board already said it was all good. That same area's residents are, first hand knowledge citation for what it's worth, not the type that would bat an eye at polluting practices and would (and do!) raise hell if environmental protection is brought up as a necessary aspect of society.

I may not be following the biblical reference well but, have no doubt this area's mindset would make them well and truly ok with this were it to be happening anywhere but their backyard.

It is sad. It absolutely is and I wish I saw hope or a light or a solution.

Our family farm, a place of three farmhouses built by my grandfather and his two brothers (one each), is there and it has went from a place that I could see inhabiting and loving like they did to nearly a non starter as the local water board collapses under the weight of folks refusing necessary increases, dumping garbage on the country roadside, continually voting against their own interests and rallying behind a scant few strip mining jobs, cursing Obama and people of color in general, and, all the while, it's the peak opioid crisis hotspot for the state (and maybe even the south in general).

I just wither inside when I realize how much society has failed that area and culture or, I suppose, how much that society and culture has failed itself. I don't know.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:18 PM on April 4, 2018 [9 favorites]

NYC, elev. 10 m
Parrish, elev. 116 m

So no, Virginia; shit does not roll downhill.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:32 AM on April 5, 2018 [4 favorites]

Plenty of cities still do this, and considerably more have combined storm and sanitary sewers that dump huge amounts of untreated waste whenever there is too much rain for the system.

Parts of New York have these combined storm and sanitary sewers, and their "solution" has been to ask people in parts of Brooklyn and Queens not to use water during rainstorms. ("During the pilot project, volunteers were asked to wait a total of 13 times — with the average wait lasting a little over seven hours.")

Needless to say, there is no refund on offer of the taxes and water and sewer fees we pay—taxes and fees identical to those Manhattanites pay for a functioning system that allows them to use water whenever they want. Bridge and tunnel people don't merit that level of service, I guess.
posted by enn at 5:49 AM on April 5, 2018 [1 favorite]

Black gold, although the people of Parrish deserve much better. This should not happen. This is where people live and play.
posted by DJZouke at 6:39 AM on April 5, 2018

The wastewater treatment plant in the city where I went to school shipped the net result a few times a year to the dairy farm in between my home town and my school. There were always a few smelly days until it got worked into the soil and you'd really know the delivery had happened when the bus went by the farm. I can't imagine having this near my home for months on end.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:42 AM on April 5, 2018

Are you allowed to use human waste derived fertilizer on food crops? I thought that was a no no, or is it pretty much sterile once it goes through the treatment process?
posted by quaking fajita at 6:54 AM on April 5, 2018

I'm pretty sure Milorganite is only used in landscaping, mostly because it sounds like there's a bioaccumulation concern (PCBs, heavy metals, etc) more than a bacterial concern.
posted by Kyol at 8:28 AM on April 5, 2018

Are you allowed to use human waste derived fertilizer on food crops?

Yes! Biosolids that meet EPA standards for class A biosolids (also called exceptional quality or EQ biosolids) can be applied in land use applications with no restrictions or need for permitting, this includes usage in both food crops and livestock forage. There are three main requirements for class A biosolids: limits in heavy metal and PCB concentrations, non-detectable pathogen levels, and it must meet the Vector Attraction Reduction standard (does it attract animals like flies or rodents that spread disease).

Class B biosolids meet the first requirement but not the other two. They can be used in non-food crop land use applications (landscape, turf grass, forestry, mine reclamation, landfill remediation, etc) and have specific regulatory and record keeping requirements for their usage. Land where class B biosolids have been applied can eventually be used in food production or livestock forage after a specified time period has passed. That time period depends on the use, for example melons can be grown after 14 months, potatoes after 38 months, livestock animals may graze after 30 days.

Sewage sludges that do not meet these standards are usually landfilled or incinerated, or further processed by other industries.

This EPA biosolids management handbook (pdf) gets into all the technical specifics but is still pretty approachable as far as these things go.
posted by peeedro at 12:54 PM on April 5, 2018 [9 favorites]

Also Milorganite is a class A biosolid and safe to use in your garden. It would be unavailable for consumer sales if it was not. It is not marketed towards casual vegetable gardeners because the yuck! factor is hard to overcome.
posted by peeedro at 1:30 PM on April 5, 2018

Home composting rarely gets hot enough to effectively kill bacteria. Commercial composting operations have hot compost and germs are killed. For human waste, there may be additional processes to make it safe. I used to put the dog poop on a flower garden where the soil was poor and over time that area of garden got very healthy.

Smell and flies and government indifference, I feel bad for them.
posted by theora55 at 7:14 AM on April 6, 2018

Party trick if you have a mass spectrometer is to compare the N and C isotopes of people from different parts of the world. Europeans have an N signature much different from USians because US human food is only a few steps from Haber-Bosch fixation from the atmosphere; Europe has nitrogen that's been through a lot of organisms since it was most recently fixed.

(And US standard diet is noticeably different in C isotopes from US vegetarians. Non-vegetarians eat a lot of corn, one step removed.)
posted by clew at 12:40 AM on April 7, 2018 [1 favorite]

The Washington Post is reporting that the poop train is gone. They paddle a little further up the creek to answer why this happened: the town closest to the landfill with a rail depot was granted a legal injunction against unloading the material from rail cars into dump trucks through a local ordinance against noxious odors, so this material was being unloaded slowly at the next closest rail yard in Parrish:

At the root of the issue is the shipping of treated human waste and inconsistent regulations involving transport from city to city and from state to state. Such waste has been traveling through this area by train from New York and New Jersey for disposal since 2017, part of a contract with the Big Sky Environmental Landfill, about 25 minutes south of Parrish. New York and other jurisdictions, banned from dumping sewage at sea, have sought alternative disposal sites, including out-of-state landfills with competitive dumping fees.

Big Sky declined to comment.

The train had 56 rail cars carrying treated sewage destined for the landfill. The neighboring town of West Jefferson had obtained an injunction to keep the trains from entering and transferring their loads to trucks at its train stop — citing local zoning laws against noxious odors — and Parrish became the new stop for transfer. The result was tons of treated waste product sitting around as temperatures began to rise.

The WaPo reports that the materials were being landfilled but this contradicts earlier local reporting that explains how the biosolids are to be mixed with soil to be used as cover on top landfill sites, which was my guess:

The waste in question -- technically referred to as biosolids -- is the solid material left behind from wastewater treatment operations and often referred to as sewage sludge. It contains the remains of human waste and other materials after wastewater treatment processes, and is sometimes used as fertilizer, or in this case, as cover material for a landfill. 
[...]
Documents from [the Alabama Department of Environmental Management] show that in 2016 the landfill asked for and received approval from the Department to use the sludge material as cover to stimulate plant growth on the slopes of the landfill cells. 

Included in the proposal were waste approval forms from seven wastewater treatment facilities in the greater New York City area, showing approval to bring in up to 398,000 tons -- or 796 million pounds -- of sludge annually to the landfill. 

According to that proposal, the sludge was to be deposited into a compost area at the landfill. It would later be mixed with dirt and mulch to be spread on the cells. 

"We will utilize a loader or excavator to take equal parts stabilized biosolids and dirt/mulch and combine into a consistent mixture," the proposal reads.

From there, the biosolid mix was to be spread over the side slopes of the covered landfill cells via off-road vehicles and bulldozers with seeds planted to promote vegetative growth. 

The inaccurate narrative of those dirty New Yorkers dumping their poop in small town America gets the outrage-bait clicks, but the truth is just as important. The problem was caused by weak state and county level regulations and a patchwork of local laws which forced the landfill operator to temporarily impound their property at a more distant site instead of putting it more quickly to a beneficial use.
posted by peeedro at 3:14 PM on April 20, 2018 [1 favorite]