(Fool) if you think it's uber
June 5, 2018 4:34 PM Subscribe
"Uber’s “PR shenanigans” amount to little more than an effort to distract users from the fact that the rides are so cheap essentially because it has used 21st-century technology to erode 20th-century workers’ rights."
I have a problem with calling for a cab, the dispatch not having a clue on how long they're going to be, how they're going to contact me, and then finishing off any further line of inquiry with go fuck yourself and have a nice day.
This. I'd gladly pay more for travel if that were better for workers rights. But I refuse to miss my flight because my cab took its time getting to me.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 4:57 PM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
This. I'd gladly pay more for travel if that were better for workers rights. But I refuse to miss my flight because my cab took its time getting to me.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 4:57 PM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
The article doesn't mention that the demand for cheap rides is not a fixed number of passenger-miles.
Cheaper travel means fewer people drive their own cars, more people will travel more miles when demand-based pricing apps show prices for a journey that are agreeable for an on-the-fence rider and could create a win-win market for both riders and drivers.
In this scenario the only ethical thing to grumble about would be the fees that the middleman, Uber, charges and these will be subject to competitive pressure in the long run anyway.
posted by dongolier at 4:59 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Cheaper travel means fewer people drive their own cars, more people will travel more miles when demand-based pricing apps show prices for a journey that are agreeable for an on-the-fence rider and could create a win-win market for both riders and drivers.
In this scenario the only ethical thing to grumble about would be the fees that the middleman, Uber, charges and these will be subject to competitive pressure in the long run anyway.
posted by dongolier at 4:59 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Did the taxi industry really have good worker's rights to begin with? Cabbies were having to pay $100 a day plus gas to work and work twelve hour days even before Uber.
The profits in the taxi industry were mostly eaten up by the medallion owners, from my understanding.
posted by GregorWill at 5:00 PM on June 5, 2018 [32 favorites]
The profits in the taxi industry were mostly eaten up by the medallion owners, from my understanding.
posted by GregorWill at 5:00 PM on June 5, 2018 [32 favorites]
It s the mob you know vs the mob in California. Ride a bike.
posted by eustatic at 5:02 PM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 5:02 PM on June 5, 2018 [22 favorites]
Cities that have artificially limited taxi medallions sure aren't good for taxi driver's rights. Unless you happened to be an independent driver in 1975 or whenever your city decided to have a one-time only medallion sale and you managed to get one. And then rent out your own car/medallion to others and let them to the work and hope they could make more from fares than you charged them.
posted by thecjm at 5:03 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 5:03 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
There is a third player in all this: Uber's VCs and other private investors, who are subsidizing every ride, which is at least half the reason why Uber rides are cheaper than comparable taxi rides.
posted by PhineasGage at 5:14 PM on June 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 5:14 PM on June 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
There's also the data collection aspects of Uber, which are frightening to say the least. Don't be fooled into thinking your personal data and harvested habits, routines, favorite stores, etc. aren't sold to third parties and traceable to you just because they're 'anonymized' or 'aggregated'. And then there's this little detail - in November 2017, it came out that Uber had a massive data breach of 57 million users' personal information, which 1) they kept quiet for a year without disclosing to authorities or the public, and 2) they paid the hackers $100,000 to keep their mouths shut about it. This is the level of sociopathic lack of concern for customers and privacy that we're dealing with.
posted by naju at 5:42 PM on June 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by naju at 5:42 PM on June 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
I have a problem with calling for a cab, the dispatch not having a clue on how long they're going to be, how they're going to contact me, and then finishing off any further line of inquiry with go fuck yourself and have a nice day.
The first and last time I called for a traditional cab in Chicago the dispatcher said "When would you like your cab" and I said "Now".
"Oh sweetie, that's not how it works".
posted by srboisvert at 5:43 PM on June 5, 2018 [38 favorites]
The first and last time I called for a traditional cab in Chicago the dispatcher said "When would you like your cab" and I said "Now".
"Oh sweetie, that's not how it works".
posted by srboisvert at 5:43 PM on June 5, 2018 [38 favorites]
Cheaper travel means fewer people drive their own cars, more people will travel more miles when demand-based pricing apps show prices for a journey that are agreeable for an on-the-fence rider...
Do people actually make a decision to use Uber based on current price? I mean this genuinely. I'm pretty sure I'm not a typical user, in that I think I can enumerate every time I've used Lyft, but my calculation is never "If it's >$X, I'm taking the bus".
posted by hoyland at 5:44 PM on June 5, 2018
Do people actually make a decision to use Uber based on current price? I mean this genuinely. I'm pretty sure I'm not a typical user, in that I think I can enumerate every time I've used Lyft, but my calculation is never "If it's >$X, I'm taking the bus".
posted by hoyland at 5:44 PM on June 5, 2018
Do people actually make a decision to use Uber based on current price?
Nearly every single time, though I live in NYC so I have options (by which I mean subway, bus or foot - I can’t be bothered with any more taxi apps)
posted by STFUDonnie at 6:00 PM on June 5, 2018
Nearly every single time, though I live in NYC so I have options (by which I mean subway, bus or foot - I can’t be bothered with any more taxi apps)
posted by STFUDonnie at 6:00 PM on June 5, 2018
I have a problem with calling for a cab, the dispatch not having a clue on how long they're going to be, how they're going to contact me, and then finishing off any further line of inquiry with go fuck yourself and have a nice day.
Yup. I’ve only called a traditional cab twice here in Phoenix. Both times, I gave them more than an hour’s notice of when I needed the ride. Both times, they were late by more than 30 minutes (which then made me late for work). And in neither case did they contact me to let me know of the delay.
Im not a big Uber rider (maybe only half a dozen times in five years), but as far as I’m concerned, calling a traditional cab in this city ranks as only marginally more reliable than hitching a ride with a trucker.
I just make sure to tip well, in cash, whenever I use Uber, to compensate for the shortcomings of the “gig” economy the driver is undoubtedly coping with.
posted by darkstar at 6:01 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yup. I’ve only called a traditional cab twice here in Phoenix. Both times, I gave them more than an hour’s notice of when I needed the ride. Both times, they were late by more than 30 minutes (which then made me late for work). And in neither case did they contact me to let me know of the delay.
Im not a big Uber rider (maybe only half a dozen times in five years), but as far as I’m concerned, calling a traditional cab in this city ranks as only marginally more reliable than hitching a ride with a trucker.
I just make sure to tip well, in cash, whenever I use Uber, to compensate for the shortcomings of the “gig” economy the driver is undoubtedly coping with.
posted by darkstar at 6:01 PM on June 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
Once the DC Bikeshare opened and car2go launched, I stopped even considering cabs. If I need to be somewhere before the metro opens, either is a much more reliable option and usually quite a bit cheaper. As long as Uber’s VCs continue to subsidize rides they might be cost competitive but they showed their ethics early enough that I never started to use them.
posted by adamsc at 6:02 PM on June 5, 2018
posted by adamsc at 6:02 PM on June 5, 2018
Do people actually make a decision to use Uber based on current price
Yeah, a lot, when faced with a grueling public transit commute. If the price is too high, it makes more sense to do the other thing.
But also I think it’s really hard to tell how much is fair to pay people to drive. Mileage? Time? Inconvenience? It’s not as easy as “X$ an hour” because also there exists time when no rides are happening.
posted by corb at 6:27 PM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, a lot, when faced with a grueling public transit commute. If the price is too high, it makes more sense to do the other thing.
But also I think it’s really hard to tell how much is fair to pay people to drive. Mileage? Time? Inconvenience? It’s not as easy as “X$ an hour” because also there exists time when no rides are happening.
posted by corb at 6:27 PM on June 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
taxi companies think #2 costs too much but has been ok for #1.
Yeah certainly not here in Australia. Taxi companies are absolutely shit for workers rights and certainly no better than uber, possibly worse, gobsmacking as that sounds.
It's difficult for me to summarise how much I hate cabs. The last time we used one (last year, anti uber etc) the dude not only took the long way but then "missed" the fucking turn off for the long way anyway and had to drive another 2+ km to turn around, which he only did because I happened to know where we were going and the best way to get there. Needless to say, he did not stop the meter. Or the innumerable times taxis have failed to show up, the times they refused my grandmother's fare because it wasn't far enough in peak hour - she was eighty! Fuck taxis into the ground.
posted by smoke at 6:35 PM on June 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yeah certainly not here in Australia. Taxi companies are absolutely shit for workers rights and certainly no better than uber, possibly worse, gobsmacking as that sounds.
It's difficult for me to summarise how much I hate cabs. The last time we used one (last year, anti uber etc) the dude not only took the long way but then "missed" the fucking turn off for the long way anyway and had to drive another 2+ km to turn around, which he only did because I happened to know where we were going and the best way to get there. Needless to say, he did not stop the meter. Or the innumerable times taxis have failed to show up, the times they refused my grandmother's fare because it wasn't far enough in peak hour - she was eighty! Fuck taxis into the ground.
posted by smoke at 6:35 PM on June 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
My two cents, as a totally blind tech worker without easy access to public transportation, the prices are generally enough to justify holding my ethical nose. The alternatives here don't really have a lot going for them, and if nothing else would lack Uber's one-stop shop convenience factor. Sadly, I can't ride a bike solo and even if I could, most places I'd need to go are out of comfortable bike range.
posted by Alensin at 6:36 PM on June 5, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Alensin at 6:36 PM on June 5, 2018 [11 favorites]
Here in Madison, we have a number of decent cab companies, but union cab is a worker-owned cooperative with a long and colorful history. They do a lot of good stuff around town too, like provide free rides to the polls on Election Day. As a cooperative, they also provide health insurance and retirement. Service is good too- they even have an app! Maybe other places could figure out how to encourage more companies like that?
posted by rockindata at 6:59 PM on June 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by rockindata at 6:59 PM on June 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
Hailing a cab on the street is great... if you’re a white guy.
Uber has never left me waiting for hours at night in a shaky neighborhood. Cabs have never once picked me up even after calling. Fuck em.
posted by phliar at 7:02 PM on June 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
Uber has never left me waiting for hours at night in a shaky neighborhood. Cabs have never once picked me up even after calling. Fuck em.
posted by phliar at 7:02 PM on June 5, 2018 [25 favorites]
I hate Uber to DEATH but that article doesn't get into how terrible cab services have been/still are for POC and passengers living in "bad neighborhoods" and other passengers routinely refused service. For as long as I've been alive, I can remember jokes from black comedians in TV/movies about how hard it is to get a cab when "hailing while black." And now in turn we've got Uber and other ride-sharing apps that have become infamous for stuff like refusing rides to passengers using wheelchairs or service dogs. Like Roxane Gay writes in the Twitter thread I linked, "we can't technology our way out of racism" and other bigotry. Uber is not a worthwhile solution, but all of the other systems are broken too.
We need mass transportation systems that, at minimum, protect workers' rights AND aren't prohibitively expensive AND are safe to drive/ride AND don't discriminate against POC AND are accessible to passengers with disabilities AND protect passengers from being stalked or sexually assaulted AND will reliably pick up and deliver passengers in timely fashion regardless of location. That seems like a lot to ask, because all of our patchwork transit systems suck in at least one of those areas—but it's seriously the barest bare minimum‼ (I didn't even include "are CLEAN.")
posted by nicebookrack at 7:11 PM on June 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
We need mass transportation systems that, at minimum, protect workers' rights AND aren't prohibitively expensive AND are safe to drive/ride AND don't discriminate against POC AND are accessible to passengers with disabilities AND protect passengers from being stalked or sexually assaulted AND will reliably pick up and deliver passengers in timely fashion regardless of location. That seems like a lot to ask, because all of our patchwork transit systems suck in at least one of those areas—but it's seriously the barest bare minimum‼ (I didn't even include "are CLEAN.")
posted by nicebookrack at 7:11 PM on June 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
I’m not sure what the situation is in the UK but if you’ve lived in a borough that isn’t Manhattan then it’s entirely possible you don’t have all that much sympathy built up for the yellow cab drivers. The number of times I’ve had to argue with a cab driver to do their damn job and take me over a bridge or been ripped off by a livery car driver (cough Northside) because I didn’t think to get a price quote and found out after the fact that the driver had padded the cost. And those are the regular instances that don’t involve spontaneous fire or cops or truly dangerous situations I can hardly believe I’ve been through. And I haven’t even touched the racism that pervaded the industry.
I’m not happy about people who have been left financially ruined because of medallion prices they can’t pay off but industries change and sometimes rightfully so. I don’t love Uber as a company and have switched primarily to Juno in a perhaps misguided belief that it’s a better company for the drivers. Maybe if you never left Manhattan you can afford to wax lyrical about times past but there are plenty of us who know that a vast amount of riders in NYC were underserved (and illegally so) for decades.
posted by rdnnyc at 7:12 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
I’m not happy about people who have been left financially ruined because of medallion prices they can’t pay off but industries change and sometimes rightfully so. I don’t love Uber as a company and have switched primarily to Juno in a perhaps misguided belief that it’s a better company for the drivers. Maybe if you never left Manhattan you can afford to wax lyrical about times past but there are plenty of us who know that a vast amount of riders in NYC were underserved (and illegally so) for decades.
posted by rdnnyc at 7:12 PM on June 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
Everyone knowns Uber is vile - they cheat their workers and don't vet their drivers; assaults don't get prosecuted; they work hard to dodge law enforcement and have blackouts on passengers they don't want to deal with. And they'd sink like a stone if they weren't meeting a demand so great that it overrides all of those concerns, at least for enough people for them to rake in money faster than the law can prosecute.
We need to rethink our whole culture's reliance on cars, and especially reliance on "I can get anywhere I need to be in an hour." Need to stop dividing cities into zones - residential, commercial, industrial, with further subdivisions among those so that moving from "go to work" (industrial) to "hang out with friends" (residential) to "shop for dinner" (commercial) to "go clubbing" (different commercial) doesn't always require a car.
We need to challenge the notion that "efficiency" can exclude maintenance costs, environmental costs, and stress-and-exhaustion costs for people. No wonder Uber's succeeding; it's figured out how to run a business without having to account for any of those.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:13 PM on June 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
We need to rethink our whole culture's reliance on cars, and especially reliance on "I can get anywhere I need to be in an hour." Need to stop dividing cities into zones - residential, commercial, industrial, with further subdivisions among those so that moving from "go to work" (industrial) to "hang out with friends" (residential) to "shop for dinner" (commercial) to "go clubbing" (different commercial) doesn't always require a car.
We need to challenge the notion that "efficiency" can exclude maintenance costs, environmental costs, and stress-and-exhaustion costs for people. No wonder Uber's succeeding; it's figured out how to run a business without having to account for any of those.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:13 PM on June 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
We need to rethink our whole culture's reliance on cars, and especially reliance on "I can get anywhere I need to be in an hour."
We also need affordable mixed-income housing and widely available mass transit and mandatory minimum/living wages and social support systems: for many people living in working poverty, having a job is dependent on having a car because they can't afford to live near the places the work.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:23 PM on June 5, 2018 [26 favorites]
We also need affordable mixed-income housing and widely available mass transit and mandatory minimum/living wages and social support systems: for many people living in working poverty, having a job is dependent on having a car because they can't afford to live near the places the work.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:23 PM on June 5, 2018 [26 favorites]
And they'd sink like a stone if they weren't meeting a demand so great that it overrides all of those concerns, at least for enough people for them to rake in money faster than the law can prosecute.
Uber's not raking in money- far from it. They lost 4.5 billion dollars in 2017. Rides from Uber are pretty much sponsored by VCs.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:26 PM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
Uber's not raking in money- far from it. They lost 4.5 billion dollars in 2017. Rides from Uber are pretty much sponsored by VCs.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:26 PM on June 5, 2018 [9 favorites]
Uber's following the same business model as Walmart: systematically undercut prices at a loss while underpaying labor, drive local competitors out of business, and as the only remaining option you have a monopoly to set prices and terms.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 7:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
I was under the impression that the rides are so cheap also because they're burning vast amounts of investor cash.
posted by atoxyl at 8:20 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 8:20 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Is there anything out there that dictates what uber's pricing scheme for rides is, or is it just a weird algorithm that nobody has information about?
posted by gucci mane at 8:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by gucci mane at 8:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
We need to rethink our whole culture's reliance on cars, and especially reliance on "I can get anywhere I need to be in an hour."
I mostly agree with you, but if I understand you right the thing that makes me nervous about this last part is that jobs in a large urban area aren't that fungible. Even bars and clubs aren't fungible! To me, this is part of what makes a large urban area different from a college town; the appeal is partly the ability to, for instance, work at a university doing pretty specialized biomedical research, but also hang out with my friends in the gayborhood. Most towns in the USA can't support one of those things, let alone both. My point is basically that mixed-use neighborhoods with a little of everything are a great idea, but in cities people are also going to need effective ways of getting from one to the other.
Where we're really falling down, I think, is medium-rise density and effective transit. Right now it takes me over an hour to go 6.5 miles to work, because my city plonked down a cluster of health sector and biotech jobs in an area of town without much infrastructure (and now there is also going to be a basketball arena there, for some reason?!??), and then built transit that was totally inadequate. It's true that they also didn't capture nearly enough units for affordable housing nearby, of course.
I think people's imaginations in the USA about what is possible with transit have gotten so constrained by what they see around them, that they believe it always has to be deathly slow and inconvenient, and that it can't possibly be expected to run on a schedule, let alone run every 5 minutes during the day. The thing is that transit really can be competitive with cars, if we actually design it to be and prioritize it (and reclaim street space from cars to give it to transit!). As a culture Americans seem to treat transit like we treat any other part of the safety net: we're focused on providing a minimal, barely-acceptable solution to people who literally have no other options. And, because transit is so marginalized, this perversely pits people against each other for the crumbs: on the one hand people need rapid transit that can actually get them where they're going, and on the other people also really do need some "coverage" transit to provide a lifeline. Those two things are always in tension to some extent, but that tension is way exacerbated by the overall lack of resources and terrible city planning here.
There's also very few places in the US, even in urban areas, that are reliably medium-density, as in, 5-to-7-stories. Montreal actually creates quite a lot of density just by having triplexes, which are something most of our cities lack. Mostly it is illegal to build like that here, because of fucking parking minimums enshrined in our zoning laws. So that also needs to change to make a dent in car use.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:23 PM on June 5, 2018 [19 favorites]
I mostly agree with you, but if I understand you right the thing that makes me nervous about this last part is that jobs in a large urban area aren't that fungible. Even bars and clubs aren't fungible! To me, this is part of what makes a large urban area different from a college town; the appeal is partly the ability to, for instance, work at a university doing pretty specialized biomedical research, but also hang out with my friends in the gayborhood. Most towns in the USA can't support one of those things, let alone both. My point is basically that mixed-use neighborhoods with a little of everything are a great idea, but in cities people are also going to need effective ways of getting from one to the other.
Where we're really falling down, I think, is medium-rise density and effective transit. Right now it takes me over an hour to go 6.5 miles to work, because my city plonked down a cluster of health sector and biotech jobs in an area of town without much infrastructure (and now there is also going to be a basketball arena there, for some reason?!??), and then built transit that was totally inadequate. It's true that they also didn't capture nearly enough units for affordable housing nearby, of course.
I think people's imaginations in the USA about what is possible with transit have gotten so constrained by what they see around them, that they believe it always has to be deathly slow and inconvenient, and that it can't possibly be expected to run on a schedule, let alone run every 5 minutes during the day. The thing is that transit really can be competitive with cars, if we actually design it to be and prioritize it (and reclaim street space from cars to give it to transit!). As a culture Americans seem to treat transit like we treat any other part of the safety net: we're focused on providing a minimal, barely-acceptable solution to people who literally have no other options. And, because transit is so marginalized, this perversely pits people against each other for the crumbs: on the one hand people need rapid transit that can actually get them where they're going, and on the other people also really do need some "coverage" transit to provide a lifeline. Those two things are always in tension to some extent, but that tension is way exacerbated by the overall lack of resources and terrible city planning here.
There's also very few places in the US, even in urban areas, that are reliably medium-density, as in, 5-to-7-stories. Montreal actually creates quite a lot of density just by having triplexes, which are something most of our cities lack. Mostly it is illegal to build like that here, because of fucking parking minimums enshrined in our zoning laws. So that also needs to change to make a dent in car use.
posted by en forme de poire at 9:23 PM on June 5, 2018 [19 favorites]
One super depressing anecdote I heard here was someone who had talked to some working-class, lower-income people in a particularly gentrification-resistant neighborhood here, who -- contrary to the stereotype and despite the cost -- were totally reliant on Uber to get around. The problem was that the alternative was essentially, being late to work, being possibly stranded by unreliable transit, or paying way more to buy, insure, and park a car. This is the problem with designing transit that is technically accessible to everyone, but so inefficient that it can't compete with driving: even people for whom it's a huge financial sacrifice end up paying to opt out. It ends up functioning like a regressive tax, and one that's not even being paid to the city.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:50 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 10:50 PM on June 5, 2018 [12 favorites]
I think the comment above is uplifting...any exchange of a service for a payment creates two people who are made 'better off'.
if both participants are not made better off, the transaction will not happen.
An insular middle or upper class perspective hides the real fact that innovation in technology creates value for those that have the least. Food prices have never been as low as they are today, mobile phones and networks provide benefit and business models for 'rural poor' the world over, cheap shipping is bringing affordable stuff to africa...etc.... (For details read anything from the captivating economic historian, Deirdre McCloskey previously).
posted by dongolier at 11:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
if both participants are not made better off, the transaction will not happen.
An insular middle or upper class perspective hides the real fact that innovation in technology creates value for those that have the least. Food prices have never been as low as they are today, mobile phones and networks provide benefit and business models for 'rural poor' the world over, cheap shipping is bringing affordable stuff to africa...etc.... (For details read anything from the captivating economic historian, Deirdre McCloskey previously).
posted by dongolier at 11:34 PM on June 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
any exchange of a service for a payment creates two people who are made 'better off'.
That's why the mob's protection racket was such a success. They got money and your shop was protected from arson. Win/win!
posted by gusottertrout at 11:51 PM on June 5, 2018 [19 favorites]
That's why the mob's protection racket was such a success. They got money and your shop was protected from arson. Win/win!
posted by gusottertrout at 11:51 PM on June 5, 2018 [19 favorites]
Rides from Uber are pretty much sponsored by VCs.
I was under the impression that the rides are so cheap also because they're burning vast amounts of investor cash.
Finally some income redistribution from the 1%!!
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:16 AM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
I was under the impression that the rides are so cheap also because they're burning vast amounts of investor cash.
Finally some income redistribution from the 1%!!
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:16 AM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
2) Customer convenicence
Cabs don't even take debit / credit cards. I mean, they cannnn, but for some reason multiple cabbies have insisted on stopping at an ATM (usually whenever I've been in the biggest hurry). The hot dog stand at the farmers market takes cards now.
posted by salvia at 1:20 AM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
Cabs don't even take debit / credit cards. I mean, they cannnn, but for some reason multiple cabbies have insisted on stopping at an ATM (usually whenever I've been in the biggest hurry). The hot dog stand at the farmers market takes cards now.
posted by salvia at 1:20 AM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
I dont really think angel money VC's are subsidizing each trip...I think they spent the money to set Uber up and advertize and pay the lawyers...but these days I'm betting the more trips that are taken the more money Uber makes....even if they don't break even yet.
posted by dongolier at 3:08 AM on June 6, 2018
posted by dongolier at 3:08 AM on June 6, 2018
salvia, I can’t count the number of times the credit card machine in a cab has mysteriously quit working between the airport and my hotel. I usually travel with a small bag and keep it with me, not in the trunk, to avoid shenanigans. When I tell the driver that it’s fine, I’ll wait while they call their dispatcher, the problems suddenly clear up. I figure there must be some scam the drivers can work with cash over credit card transactions, but it just occurred to me that maybe their tips from credit transactions are being stolen. It’s a crummy situation for both passenger and driver. I’ve given up on cabs here in suburban Maryland and use a car service when I have to, even though my neighbor now drives for Uber.
posted by wintermind at 3:57 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by wintermind at 3:57 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I figure there must be some scam the drivers can work with cash over credit card transactions, but it just occurred to me that maybe their tips from credit transactions are being stolen.
Stolen? Possibly, but taxed is the more likely answer I'd think.
As to the larger conversation, I'd just say that the cab/uber issues in major cities isn't necessarily playing out the same way in the rest of the country, where medallions aren't a thing and cab companies can be run much differently. I appreciate the cab service and the regulations that come with it in my town and Uber's inroads into the city aren't adding the same sorts of potential benefits sometimes discussed for New York.
Major cities, of course, are going to have a outsized influence on the success or failure of Uber nationwide, but people who live in those cities aren't the only ones who are affected by the change.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:06 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Stolen? Possibly, but taxed is the more likely answer I'd think.
As to the larger conversation, I'd just say that the cab/uber issues in major cities isn't necessarily playing out the same way in the rest of the country, where medallions aren't a thing and cab companies can be run much differently. I appreciate the cab service and the regulations that come with it in my town and Uber's inroads into the city aren't adding the same sorts of potential benefits sometimes discussed for New York.
Major cities, of course, are going to have a outsized influence on the success or failure of Uber nationwide, but people who live in those cities aren't the only ones who are affected by the change.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:06 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
1. Dara, the new-ish CEO is a decent human being. I was sad when he left Expedia for Uber. I emailed him and said so. (Now you may have a clue where I work)
2. Transit in the US is fucked. We’re more likely to succeed with moving to aircraft as a form of mass transit than actually getting over our hatred of poor people long enough to see busses and trains as something other than punishment for being born not-rich.
3. I’m in Germany and Switzerland riding an ICE train from Zurich to Berlin literally as I type this and Jesus fucking Christ this is what’s possible? US citizens got so robbed.
4. Fuck taxis in the US. And Uber too. But if I had to bet I’d say regulate Uber a little harder and let the taxi industry go the way of the travel agencies.
posted by nikaspark at 4:34 AM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
2. Transit in the US is fucked. We’re more likely to succeed with moving to aircraft as a form of mass transit than actually getting over our hatred of poor people long enough to see busses and trains as something other than punishment for being born not-rich.
3. I’m in Germany and Switzerland riding an ICE train from Zurich to Berlin literally as I type this and Jesus fucking Christ this is what’s possible? US citizens got so robbed.
4. Fuck taxis in the US. And Uber too. But if I had to bet I’d say regulate Uber a little harder and let the taxi industry go the way of the travel agencies.
posted by nikaspark at 4:34 AM on June 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
Uber's following the same business model as Walmart: systematically undercut prices at a loss while underpaying labor, drive local competitors out of business, and as the only remaining option you have a monopoly to set prices and terms.
And yet this doesn't really happen like you say. Walmart offers low prices that tend to be pretty consistent across the country, regardless of how much a regional monopoly they may be. "Underpaying" labor has been a significant issue among small mom and pop retail establishments that have been most endangered by Walmart. Concerned people have been wringing their hands about Walmart for a long time, but it's become passe with the rise of Amazon. Who'll think of Walmart?!?
One super depressing anecdote I heard here was someone who had talked to some working-class, lower-income people in a particularly gentrification-resistant neighborhood here, who -- contrary to the stereotype and despite the cost -- were totally reliant on Uber to get around. The problem was that the alternative was essentially, being late to work, being possibly stranded by unreliable transit, or paying way more to buy, insure, and park a car. This is the problem with designing transit that is technically accessible to everyone, but so inefficient that it can't compete with driving: even people for whom it's a huge financial sacrifice end up paying to opt out. It ends up functioning like a regressive tax, and one that's not even being paid to the city.
One of the things that's pissed me off so much about the hate for uber from the left is how condescending it has been toward people who use, and like uber. Why would anyone like uber? Because it gives options that never existed practically before. Particularly to regular working class people whom the same left claims to advocate for so vehemently. It comes across as a left that has absolutely no knowledge of actual working class people, eager to claim a moral ground on behalf of people who can, and do, make decisions for themselves. Decisions that are not good enough, apparently.
Is is depressing? Sure, if you cannot abide by the reality that even with the best , most ideal, public transportation systems simply cannot serve everyone all that well, never will, and leave plenty of room for services like uber to fill.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:16 AM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
I've never understood regular cabs and I understand rideshare cabs even less. They're incredibly expensive compared to every other kind of ground transportation (except limo maybe?) and they don't get you there much faster than bus or bike in most reasonably sized cities. I had to get to work without a car a few weeks ago and didn't plan ahead and thought Lyft would be a good way to get to work. The 25 minute ride cost $45. It would made more sense to call out, even more so if I had a minimum wage job.
posted by runcibleshaw at 5:20 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by runcibleshaw at 5:20 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
RE: Walmart underpaying labor: I'm also talking about Walmart and other mass retailers literally paying for sweatshop/slave labor to manufacture its low-priced goods, on top of paying service labor at rates designed to be supplemented by keeping employees dependent on welfare / social services and by ignoring employee safety and comfort (like in Amazon's punishing distribution warehouses).
posted by nicebookrack at 5:25 AM on June 6, 2018
posted by nicebookrack at 5:25 AM on June 6, 2018
Uber's not raking in money- far from it. They lost 4.5 billion dollars in 2017. Rides from Uber are pretty much sponsored by VCs.
Commonly stated, but not entirely true. Uber loses money overall, but there are many riders in many cities whose fares are not being subsidized by Uber like they used to be. A year or two ago, Uber was stupid cheap. As in I regularly paid $5 for trips that Uber was paying out $10-15 to give me. These days, even when I do get a promo, they're just not taking their usual cut, though they still collect the booking fee and safety surcharge, which means they're probably still making a bit of money.
They keep entering new markets and blowing a ton of cash on driver sign up incentives and rider promos, though, so they still lose money hand over fist. Not that I care. I only use them when I'm pretty sure they're going to lose money on the deal. If not, I'll take the bus or use Lyft, who at least seem to not be blatantly abusive in addition to being tightwads and misclasssifying workers.
posted by wierdo at 5:27 AM on June 6, 2018
Commonly stated, but not entirely true. Uber loses money overall, but there are many riders in many cities whose fares are not being subsidized by Uber like they used to be. A year or two ago, Uber was stupid cheap. As in I regularly paid $5 for trips that Uber was paying out $10-15 to give me. These days, even when I do get a promo, they're just not taking their usual cut, though they still collect the booking fee and safety surcharge, which means they're probably still making a bit of money.
They keep entering new markets and blowing a ton of cash on driver sign up incentives and rider promos, though, so they still lose money hand over fist. Not that I care. I only use them when I'm pretty sure they're going to lose money on the deal. If not, I'll take the bus or use Lyft, who at least seem to not be blatantly abusive in addition to being tightwads and misclasssifying workers.
posted by wierdo at 5:27 AM on June 6, 2018
Is there anything out there that dictates what uber's pricing scheme for rides is, or is it just a weird algorithm that nobody has information about?
There exists a published rate card, but it's hard to find and only applies if you don't put in a destination and get a fixed fare, though that fixed fare is an estimate based on the time and mileage charges, possibly with a discount built in.
Where I live it's 95c/mile and 15c/minute. Drivers get paid 85+10. That's for X. They get paid a bit less for Pool rides. Pool customer rates are completely opaque, though. Sometimes it's $2, sometimes it's $5 for the same ride at the same time of day. I hate pool and basically never use it, though.
posted by wierdo at 5:49 AM on June 6, 2018
There exists a published rate card, but it's hard to find and only applies if you don't put in a destination and get a fixed fare, though that fixed fare is an estimate based on the time and mileage charges, possibly with a discount built in.
Where I live it's 95c/mile and 15c/minute. Drivers get paid 85+10. That's for X. They get paid a bit less for Pool rides. Pool customer rates are completely opaque, though. Sometimes it's $2, sometimes it's $5 for the same ride at the same time of day. I hate pool and basically never use it, though.
posted by wierdo at 5:49 AM on June 6, 2018
Am I the only person who has never had a single bad experience with cabs?
(Maybe living in an area which is very well served by transit has forced the cabs to be better?)
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 AM on June 6, 2018
(Maybe living in an area which is very well served by transit has forced the cabs to be better?)
posted by clawsoon at 7:00 AM on June 6, 2018
So I’m completely unfamiliar with the corporate philosophy, etc. of Lyft. I just confirmed and Lyft is here in Phoenix. Am I to understand that they are better for their workers than Uber? In a marginal way, or significantly so?
What about the convenience/cost factors?
posted by darkstar at 7:03 AM on June 6, 2018
What about the convenience/cost factors?
posted by darkstar at 7:03 AM on June 6, 2018
Clawsoon, I got yelled at by a cabbie the one time I tried to take a cab in TO. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by quaking fajita at 7:23 AM on June 6, 2018
posted by quaking fajita at 7:23 AM on June 6, 2018
There exists a published rate card
Uber and Lyft both use surge pricing, and raise their prices during busy times and in high-demand locations.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 7:38 AM on June 6, 2018
Uber and Lyft both use surge pricing, and raise their prices during busy times and in high-demand locations.
posted by still_wears_a_hat at 7:38 AM on June 6, 2018
Why is Uber a for profit company anyway? It makes more sense as a co-op
posted by The Whelk at 7:43 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 7:43 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
Hailing a cab on the street is great... if you’re a white guy.
I think there's only a handful of cities in the US where that's true even for white guys. In my mid-sized midwestern city, the only place you can just get a cab without calling for one is the airport. Even downtown there's not enough cabs that you can just expect to hail one off the street, you have to call in advance. And, per other's experiences, you'd better call at least an hour in advance. Whereas you can get an Uber in five minutes, tops, if you're downtown, and usually ten out in my distant suburb.
As far as sharing bad experiences in cabs, I was in a cab once that got pulled over for running a red light. "I didn't run that, did I?" the driver asked me after the cop had stepped away to run his license. "Um, I wasn't watching," I said, because I tend to be conflict-avoidant and thought it best not to get the driver upset with me. But he totally ran it.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:49 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think there's only a handful of cities in the US where that's true even for white guys. In my mid-sized midwestern city, the only place you can just get a cab without calling for one is the airport. Even downtown there's not enough cabs that you can just expect to hail one off the street, you have to call in advance. And, per other's experiences, you'd better call at least an hour in advance. Whereas you can get an Uber in five minutes, tops, if you're downtown, and usually ten out in my distant suburb.
As far as sharing bad experiences in cabs, I was in a cab once that got pulled over for running a red light. "I didn't run that, did I?" the driver asked me after the cop had stepped away to run his license. "Um, I wasn't watching," I said, because I tend to be conflict-avoidant and thought it best not to get the driver upset with me. But he totally ran it.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 7:49 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've never understood regular cabs and I understand rideshare cabs even less. They're incredibly expensive compared to every other kind of ground transportation (except limo maybe?) and they don't get you there much faster than bus or bike in most reasonably sized cities.
I use Lyft (not Uber, because of the issue with sexual assaults) about once a week, instead of buying a second car - it's absolutely cheaper for me to take a Lyft when I need to than it would be to have a second car note. (But it's also only usually $12 plus tip for work to home or vice versa, less if I'm going to a bar or something.)
Public transit here in Nashville is not an option - to get to work, I have to walk about 15 minutes to a stop and wait in the heat, then go from my neighborhood to the downtown then from downtown to my job, and it takes at least an hour and a half (for a 25 minute car ride). I would use public transit if I could (I love reading on the bus, and the bus is actually free for me since my employer offers that as a benefit) but it just takes too much time. Because of where I can afford to live, biking would be taking my life into my own hands. So driving is pretty much the only option.
I'm pretty mad about the public transit referendum here that didn't pass last month because of Koch-funded lobbyists.
posted by joannemerriam at 8:06 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
I use Lyft (not Uber, because of the issue with sexual assaults) about once a week, instead of buying a second car - it's absolutely cheaper for me to take a Lyft when I need to than it would be to have a second car note. (But it's also only usually $12 plus tip for work to home or vice versa, less if I'm going to a bar or something.)
Public transit here in Nashville is not an option - to get to work, I have to walk about 15 minutes to a stop and wait in the heat, then go from my neighborhood to the downtown then from downtown to my job, and it takes at least an hour and a half (for a 25 minute car ride). I would use public transit if I could (I love reading on the bus, and the bus is actually free for me since my employer offers that as a benefit) but it just takes too much time. Because of where I can afford to live, biking would be taking my life into my own hands. So driving is pretty much the only option.
I'm pretty mad about the public transit referendum here that didn't pass last month because of Koch-funded lobbyists.
posted by joannemerriam at 8:06 AM on June 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
The reason I found that anecdote depressing is not that I think low-income people are making bad choices or something. The point is, it indicates a massive failure of public transit to meet the needs of the people it's nominally supposed to be for. (I do think there is a lot of paternalism even among "progressives" that assumes, e.g., poor people or elderly people aren't interested in transit speed or frequency. I could say a lot more about that but won't for now.)
Here are some more specific examples of why this is such a failure. There's actually a light rail line that runs through that neighborhood! But even though it is supposed to come every 10 minutes, it is typically so messed up the wait time is totally unpredictable (I also use it sometimes, because it goes to my workplace). Sometimes you have half-hour gaps between trains during peak hours. Also, it runs through busy intersections by our baseball stadium, so there's a stretch where it crawls at about 3 miles an hour, and I've been sitting on the train when it has been preempted without warning by literally ten minutes of pedestrian tourists crossing to get to a ball game. The conductor let us out, and I walked three stops and still tied the train to my destination almost a mile away. Buses here routinely just ghost on you, even with the app that is supposed to use GPS to tell you when to go outside. Particularly on small feeder lines I've been left completely hanging with no explanation. It's so common, regular riders of those lines just come to expect it. And this is what passes for public transit in most of the city. And it has a reputation as a good transit city, for the USA!
Even with all the fuckery going on in NYC with deferred maintenance and the L-pocalypse it was such a relief to be there for a vacation this summer. When I actually (briefly) lived there, I had a subway plus train commute I could set a watch to. But most people in the USA have never experienced anything even close to the speed and reliability of transit there, and of course even NYC could be better on those fronts. This is why I feel like people in the USA legit cannot even imagine good transit, i.e., transit that makes it possible not to rely on a car without requiring you become a getting-up-at-three super-commuter.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:40 AM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
Here are some more specific examples of why this is such a failure. There's actually a light rail line that runs through that neighborhood! But even though it is supposed to come every 10 minutes, it is typically so messed up the wait time is totally unpredictable (I also use it sometimes, because it goes to my workplace). Sometimes you have half-hour gaps between trains during peak hours. Also, it runs through busy intersections by our baseball stadium, so there's a stretch where it crawls at about 3 miles an hour, and I've been sitting on the train when it has been preempted without warning by literally ten minutes of pedestrian tourists crossing to get to a ball game. The conductor let us out, and I walked three stops and still tied the train to my destination almost a mile away. Buses here routinely just ghost on you, even with the app that is supposed to use GPS to tell you when to go outside. Particularly on small feeder lines I've been left completely hanging with no explanation. It's so common, regular riders of those lines just come to expect it. And this is what passes for public transit in most of the city. And it has a reputation as a good transit city, for the USA!
Even with all the fuckery going on in NYC with deferred maintenance and the L-pocalypse it was such a relief to be there for a vacation this summer. When I actually (briefly) lived there, I had a subway plus train commute I could set a watch to. But most people in the USA have never experienced anything even close to the speed and reliability of transit there, and of course even NYC could be better on those fronts. This is why I feel like people in the USA legit cannot even imagine good transit, i.e., transit that makes it possible not to rely on a car without requiring you become a getting-up-at-three super-commuter.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:40 AM on June 6, 2018 [11 favorites]
If Uber is more convenient, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to pretend that their employees are "entrepreneur" contractors. They are employees and should be entitled to all the benefits of employees, including minimum wage, health insurance, unemployment insurance, workers comp for injury, retirement accounts, sick leave, paid vacation, union representation and social security/medicare payments.
Right now Uber only exists because of a shortage of better jobs and an oversupply of people desperate enough to work for less than minimum wage.
posted by JackFlash at 8:43 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Right now Uber only exists because of a shortage of better jobs and an oversupply of people desperate enough to work for less than minimum wage.
posted by JackFlash at 8:43 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'll also just say that my urban commute is 20-25 minutes by Lyft and 65-75 on transit. Lyft Line is 45 or so. I can't afford to Lyft or Line every day (regular Lyft is around $25 after tip, transit is $3-5 depending on my route) and I hate using them because they are only marginally better than Uber. But I do sometimes when I'm running really late.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:50 AM on June 6, 2018
posted by en forme de poire at 8:50 AM on June 6, 2018
Right now Uber only exists because of a shortage of better jobs and an oversupply of people desperate enough to work for less than minimum wage.
This is a permanent feature of capitalism from here until our AI overloads figure out that gay space communism is better than capital dystopia and finally start the cultural revolution to end all revolutions.
posted by nikaspark at 8:55 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is a permanent feature of capitalism from here until our AI overloads figure out that gay space communism is better than capital dystopia and finally start the cultural revolution to end all revolutions.
posted by nikaspark at 8:55 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've never understood regular cabs and I understand rideshare cabs even less. They're incredibly expensive compared to every other kind of ground transportation (except limo maybe?) and they don't get you there much faster than bus or bike in most reasonably sized cities
When my housemate and I take it, it's $1.30 more than our combined bus fare and 2-3x as fast.
posted by salvia at 9:45 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
When my housemate and I take it, it's $1.30 more than our combined bus fare and 2-3x as fast.
posted by salvia at 9:45 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
For a while UberPOOL was actually undercutting the bus ($2.75) for some trips here, while of course being faster and having shorter wait times.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:01 AM on June 6, 2018
posted by en forme de poire at 10:01 AM on June 6, 2018
There are a couple of apps out there that will call a real taxi with as much convenience as Uber, Lyft, etc. and none of the surge pricing or gig economy bullshit:
Curb
Arro
Availability will vary. Probably best for large cities. There may be other apps.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 10:17 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Curb
Arro
Availability will vary. Probably best for large cities. There may be other apps.
posted by Grimp0teuthis at 10:17 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yep, Flywheel in SF is an app that uses only licensed taxis and drivers, and has no surge pricing.
posted by vickyverky at 10:30 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by vickyverky at 10:30 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
We need mass transportation systems that, at minimum, protect workers' rights AND aren't prohibitively expensive AND are safe to drive/ride AND don't discriminate against POC AND are accessible to passengers with disabilities AND protect passengers from being stalked or sexually assaulted AND will reliably pick up and deliver passengers in timely fashion regardless of location.
I lost my car in February so I've been limited to the bus and walking (and occasionally Lyft; if you ask an Uber/Lyft driver which one they prefer, they always say Lyft).
Anyway, the bus drivers here are unionized and well paid. Disabled people and seniors get a steep discount on fares (other low income folks don't, but it's still not terrible). I am almost always the only white person on the bus unless it's one of the university lines. I feel safer on buses than I do walking in random neighborhoods; there are cameras everywhere. I've never given a thought to the bus driver harassing/assaulting me (I'm a guy, but this was true when I was presenting as female). It's generally clean; my most common complaint is that the air temp is equivalent to the frozen section of the supermarket.
Occasionally I miss a bus because it's 5 minutes early/late, but there are a few apps for tracking buses and I check those before I leave so I know if I have to rush.
However, I live in the middle of the city with 4 bus lines within a few blocks (6 if I'm ambitious enough to walk farther). It would be impossible to commute to most suburbs. I know someone who takes an uber every day to her job in the 'burbs (she can't drive). I don't know how she makes that work financially, but it's unfortunate she doesn't have a lower cost option.
I don't know what it's like in other places, but the bus is maligned by many white people because of the perception that only poor black people use it. Which is anecdotally true, to an extent, but that's self-perpetuating. Milwaukee is trying to combat this by putting in a shiny new streetcar that white people will want to ride. The limited routes don't benefit me at all, but hopefully it'll spur momentum and they'll add more.
posted by AFABulous at 11:11 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I lost my car in February so I've been limited to the bus and walking (and occasionally Lyft; if you ask an Uber/Lyft driver which one they prefer, they always say Lyft).
Anyway, the bus drivers here are unionized and well paid. Disabled people and seniors get a steep discount on fares (other low income folks don't, but it's still not terrible). I am almost always the only white person on the bus unless it's one of the university lines. I feel safer on buses than I do walking in random neighborhoods; there are cameras everywhere. I've never given a thought to the bus driver harassing/assaulting me (I'm a guy, but this was true when I was presenting as female). It's generally clean; my most common complaint is that the air temp is equivalent to the frozen section of the supermarket.
Occasionally I miss a bus because it's 5 minutes early/late, but there are a few apps for tracking buses and I check those before I leave so I know if I have to rush.
However, I live in the middle of the city with 4 bus lines within a few blocks (6 if I'm ambitious enough to walk farther). It would be impossible to commute to most suburbs. I know someone who takes an uber every day to her job in the 'burbs (she can't drive). I don't know how she makes that work financially, but it's unfortunate she doesn't have a lower cost option.
I don't know what it's like in other places, but the bus is maligned by many white people because of the perception that only poor black people use it. Which is anecdotally true, to an extent, but that's self-perpetuating. Milwaukee is trying to combat this by putting in a shiny new streetcar that white people will want to ride. The limited routes don't benefit me at all, but hopefully it'll spur momentum and they'll add more.
posted by AFABulous at 11:11 AM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Uber and Lyft both use surge pricing, and raise their prices during busy times and in high-demand locations.
That is true, but the surge/prime time rate is "just" a multiplier of the rate card price, it's not that they charge some random price. It's been a long time since I've seen one around here, though. There are too many drivers here for that to happen without a legit major event being involved, and it's still cheaper than a taxi until it gets to 3x.
posted by wierdo at 11:18 AM on June 6, 2018
That is true, but the surge/prime time rate is "just" a multiplier of the rate card price, it's not that they charge some random price. It's been a long time since I've seen one around here, though. There are too many drivers here for that to happen without a legit major event being involved, and it's still cheaper than a taxi until it gets to 3x.
posted by wierdo at 11:18 AM on June 6, 2018
Unlike in the US, apparently, taxis are generally not a horror show in the UK. Workers are comparatively well protected, service is not awful, and a whole heap of the reasons being provided in defense of Uber in this thread simply aren't relevant to a UK context.
posted by Dysk at 11:31 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:31 AM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've never understood regular cabs and I understand rideshare cabs even less. They're incredibly expensive compared to every other kind of ground transportation (except limo maybe?) and they don't get you there much faster than bus or bike in most reasonably sized cities. I had to get to work without a car a few weeks ago and didn't plan ahead and thought Lyft would be a good way to get to work. The 25 minute ride cost $45. It would made more sense to call out, even more so if I had a minimum wage job.
They are absolutely not incredibly expensive, for occasional use, compared to purchasing, insuring, maintaining and fueling an automobile, which in most of the US is the sole alternative source of ground transport.
and LOL at the idea that you could just "call out" of your minimum wage job. Where I come from that's called Now You're Unemployed.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
They are absolutely not incredibly expensive, for occasional use, compared to purchasing, insuring, maintaining and fueling an automobile, which in most of the US is the sole alternative source of ground transport.
and LOL at the idea that you could just "call out" of your minimum wage job. Where I come from that's called Now You're Unemployed.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:37 AM on June 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
As a rider, surge prices is one of the big pluses for Uber/Lyft.
With surge pricing, I get to decide between "I *have* to be there right now" and "eh, that's OK, I can go in an hour".
Without it, I only get the second choice.
Yes, the surge pricing is expensive, but it's what makes these services actually reliable for time-sensitive appointments.
And for a lot of uses the occasional surge is still not going to get you anywhere near the cost of owning a dedicated car.
posted by bfields at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
With surge pricing, I get to decide between "I *have* to be there right now" and "eh, that's OK, I can go in an hour".
Without it, I only get the second choice.
Yes, the surge pricing is expensive, but it's what makes these services actually reliable for time-sensitive appointments.
And for a lot of uses the occasional surge is still not going to get you anywhere near the cost of owning a dedicated car.
posted by bfields at 11:48 AM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure I'm not a typical user, in that I think I can enumerate every time I've used Lyft, but my calculation is never "If it's >$X, I'm taking the bus".
posted by hoyland
I do. Actually, my usual calculation is, if it's less than 2km, I'm walking rather than paying $3 for the bus. A taxi ride is for special occasions, like flights - but only if I also have a lot of luggage or it's 4am. Otherwise, I take the bus. (Express from Kipling - yay!).
In Toronto, our taxis are prompt - I've never waited long for one. When I lived in a small city in the US, you might end up waiting long for a cab, but you could also book one for an exact time and they were never late.
I wonder how many people are like me? My SO is - both of us were just normed on the idea that taxis are special treats, and if you're out late/drinking, you take the bus. We do have 24 hour buses in Toronto - and I have waited for 45 minutes in freezing weather for one. Still wouldn't take a cab, it's too expensive.
Also, a quote from the end of the article, because it is so true:
posted by hoyland
I do. Actually, my usual calculation is, if it's less than 2km, I'm walking rather than paying $3 for the bus. A taxi ride is for special occasions, like flights - but only if I also have a lot of luggage or it's 4am. Otherwise, I take the bus. (Express from Kipling - yay!).
In Toronto, our taxis are prompt - I've never waited long for one. When I lived in a small city in the US, you might end up waiting long for a cab, but you could also book one for an exact time and they were never late.
I wonder how many people are like me? My SO is - both of us were just normed on the idea that taxis are special treats, and if you're out late/drinking, you take the bus. We do have 24 hour buses in Toronto - and I have waited for 45 minutes in freezing weather for one. Still wouldn't take a cab, it's too expensive.
Also, a quote from the end of the article, because it is so true:
It’s like sweatshop clothes. Someone somewhere is paying for your cheap fare. The internet makes it much easier to ignore that. It’s not just the guy driving your taxi or delivering your pizza who suffers. These conditions spread and become the new normal. Soon, it will be your job, too.posted by jb at 1:14 PM on June 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
"If it's >$X, I'm taking the bus".
I do this all the time. Let's say I have to be somewhere at 9 am. I meant to get up at 7 but actually got out of bed at 7:30. I'd prefer not to rush through breakfast and getting ready. I check the bus schedule to see when I'd have to leave. 8:15, ugh, I'd have to rush. Then I check the Lyft rate. $12 for a 15 minute drive (bus fare is $2). Is it worth $10 to me to have that extra half hour to relax? Sometimes. If it's a job interview, always; I won't risk a late bus or standing in rain.
posted by AFABulous at 1:30 PM on June 6, 2018
I do this all the time. Let's say I have to be somewhere at 9 am. I meant to get up at 7 but actually got out of bed at 7:30. I'd prefer not to rush through breakfast and getting ready. I check the bus schedule to see when I'd have to leave. 8:15, ugh, I'd have to rush. Then I check the Lyft rate. $12 for a 15 minute drive (bus fare is $2). Is it worth $10 to me to have that extra half hour to relax? Sometimes. If it's a job interview, always; I won't risk a late bus or standing in rain.
posted by AFABulous at 1:30 PM on June 6, 2018
I’m in Germany and Switzerland riding an ICE train from Zurich to Berlin literally as I type this and Jesus fucking Christ this is what’s possible? US citizens got so robbed.
Tell me about it. I was born and raised in the U.S.; until recently I had never been to Europe. About six months ago I traveled to Sweden for the first time, and took high speed trains between Stockholm and Göteborg. Efficient, affordable, easy to book, clean, well-organized, on-time schedules, and fast. I was so floored by the experience and the stark comparison to what I've been through in the U.S. that I had to choke back a flood of mixed tears: tears of joy for the people in the world who are fortunate enough to enjoy this kind of transit, tears of sorrow for the people in the U.S. who don't even know this sort of thing is possible (or worse yet, who know it's possible but also know they'll never have it), and tears of longing for me because I don't (yet!) live in Sweden.
posted by velvet winter at 1:46 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Tell me about it. I was born and raised in the U.S.; until recently I had never been to Europe. About six months ago I traveled to Sweden for the first time, and took high speed trains between Stockholm and Göteborg. Efficient, affordable, easy to book, clean, well-organized, on-time schedules, and fast. I was so floored by the experience and the stark comparison to what I've been through in the U.S. that I had to choke back a flood of mixed tears: tears of joy for the people in the world who are fortunate enough to enjoy this kind of transit, tears of sorrow for the people in the U.S. who don't even know this sort of thing is possible (or worse yet, who know it's possible but also know they'll never have it), and tears of longing for me because I don't (yet!) live in Sweden.
posted by velvet winter at 1:46 PM on June 6, 2018 [9 favorites]
Around here a local (well backed) startup decided to try to do Uber but in a non sociopathic way. They rent taxi permits, the driver are paid a real salary per hour, it has an app like Uber so all rides are cashless transactions and all cars are electric. They do charge the standard taxi fare. Not sure how they're doing financially but its all that I use nowadays when I need a cab and I'm in the zone they operate in.
The thing is Uber is operating a simple software stack that is easy to replicate. There's no reason all local taxi rides should send a non minimalistic % of their money to a Californian company for the simple service of hooking up a driver with a customer and processing a credit card transaction.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
The thing is Uber is operating a simple software stack that is easy to replicate. There's no reason all local taxi rides should send a non minimalistic % of their money to a Californian company for the simple service of hooking up a driver with a customer and processing a credit card transaction.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 3:27 PM on June 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
It’s sort of maddening that this technology is being used in the most brutal, exploitative way possible when it really could be a great way to organize job networks and co-operatives.
Like with most things you remove the need to have ceaseless, endless expanding profit and you can start building something worthwhile.
(Even the conceot of a gig economy wouldnt be so dystopian in a world with solid social safety nets and investative welfare, the Give Everyone In America A Rich Uncle plan )
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Like with most things you remove the need to have ceaseless, endless expanding profit and you can start building something worthwhile.
(Even the conceot of a gig economy wouldnt be so dystopian in a world with solid social safety nets and investative welfare, the Give Everyone In America A Rich Uncle plan )
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on June 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
I don't even believe rides are "so cheap" anymore, and I wonder how long Uber can coast on that belief. I mean, they used to be half the cost of taxis, or less, but today?
Most rideshares I take these days cost maybe 10% less than an equivalent taxi fare, including the home-to-airport rides I take in three cities regularly. It's a coin toss whether Uber (or Lyft) will be less expensive than a regular old taxi. Sometimes it's more.
The apps are nicer for ordering one in advance, and the cars and drivers tend to be a bit cleaner and friendlier. That's about it, though.
posted by rokusan at 4:10 PM on June 6, 2018
Most rideshares I take these days cost maybe 10% less than an equivalent taxi fare, including the home-to-airport rides I take in three cities regularly. It's a coin toss whether Uber (or Lyft) will be less expensive than a regular old taxi. Sometimes it's more.
The apps are nicer for ordering one in advance, and the cars and drivers tend to be a bit cleaner and friendlier. That's about it, though.
posted by rokusan at 4:10 PM on June 6, 2018
The Uber/Lyft/Grab model shouldn't be that difficult for other companies to copy, surely?
In my experience (in the UK), Uber drivers are much happier than regular drivers because they get to choose when they work. They make more money as a result and don't suffer abuse from the customers, they aren't physically threatened, the customers always pay and they can offer feedback on the customers. All of those things can be offered by other systems.
As a customer, knowing where my transport is has become a game changer. With everyone carrying GPS devices this is a no brainer. I don't want to order a taxi and not know where it is until it arrives ever again.
Surge pricing only serves to move my custom to other companies, because I am lucky enough to live in a place where there are alternatives. Notwithstanding the times that they won't transport me because the journey isn't far enough. That never happens with Uber.
All the taxi drivers, including Uber drivers, in my city have to take a knowledge test to get a license.
I have caught taxis in Australia and the experience is laughable. The honest ones don't know where the they are going, and tell you so. The rest don't tell you and meander about until you kick up a fuss or they accidentally get somewhere close to the destination and you start directing them. How they survive is a mystery to me.
posted by asok at 4:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
In my experience (in the UK), Uber drivers are much happier than regular drivers because they get to choose when they work. They make more money as a result and don't suffer abuse from the customers, they aren't physically threatened, the customers always pay and they can offer feedback on the customers. All of those things can be offered by other systems.
As a customer, knowing where my transport is has become a game changer. With everyone carrying GPS devices this is a no brainer. I don't want to order a taxi and not know where it is until it arrives ever again.
Surge pricing only serves to move my custom to other companies, because I am lucky enough to live in a place where there are alternatives. Notwithstanding the times that they won't transport me because the journey isn't far enough. That never happens with Uber.
All the taxi drivers, including Uber drivers, in my city have to take a knowledge test to get a license.
I have caught taxis in Australia and the experience is laughable. The honest ones don't know where the they are going, and tell you so. The rest don't tell you and meander about until you kick up a fuss or they accidentally get somewhere close to the destination and you start directing them. How they survive is a mystery to me.
posted by asok at 4:19 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
My thoughts exactly.
here in NoVa, Red Top cabs has finally gotten on board with using an app to dispatch cabs and it's like....yes. if you had done this years ago there'd be no Lyft or Uber.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:02 PM on June 6, 2018
here in NoVa, Red Top cabs has finally gotten on board with using an app to dispatch cabs and it's like....yes. if you had done this years ago there'd be no Lyft or Uber.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:02 PM on June 6, 2018
All the taxi drivers, including Uber drivers, in my city have to take a knowledge test to get a license.
Presuming this is the UK, then no, Uber drivers only have to have a valid private hire license from a council, so e.g. you have a representative from Coventry council saying: "This means we have a crazy situation where Uber drivers can get a licence in Wolverhampton but can operate in Coventry"
This end run around English regulations wasn't covered in the article, and neither was the availability of apps for local private hire or taxi companies which mean that Uber's real advantage in England and other UK markets is mainly brand recognition, and I guess subsidy by venture capitalists.
The disadvantage is that you're far more likely to get an inadequately checked driver from a council who's licensing drivers who have no intention of working in their local area. The disadvantage of living in England at the moment is the fact that there's no longer any intention by politicians to fix situations where regulations aren't doing their job. Although, per the article, there are people who are motivated to take cases to court, often pro bono, like Jolyon Maugham is.
posted by ambrosen at 8:00 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Presuming this is the UK, then no, Uber drivers only have to have a valid private hire license from a council, so e.g. you have a representative from Coventry council saying: "This means we have a crazy situation where Uber drivers can get a licence in Wolverhampton but can operate in Coventry"
This end run around English regulations wasn't covered in the article, and neither was the availability of apps for local private hire or taxi companies which mean that Uber's real advantage in England and other UK markets is mainly brand recognition, and I guess subsidy by venture capitalists.
The disadvantage is that you're far more likely to get an inadequately checked driver from a council who's licensing drivers who have no intention of working in their local area. The disadvantage of living in England at the moment is the fact that there's no longer any intention by politicians to fix situations where regulations aren't doing their job. Although, per the article, there are people who are motivated to take cases to court, often pro bono, like Jolyon Maugham is.
posted by ambrosen at 8:00 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
if you're out late/drinking, you take the bus. We do have 24 hour buses in Toronto -
Okay so Google tells me that NYC transit has 24 hr service, but that's the only city I've ever been to where that's true. They usually stop between midnight and 3am.
Even then, it's not exactly a great experience to take an hour long subway ride at 3 am. Also not fun to carry groceries home that way.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:31 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
Okay so Google tells me that NYC transit has 24 hr service, but that's the only city I've ever been to where that's true. They usually stop between midnight and 3am.
Even then, it's not exactly a great experience to take an hour long subway ride at 3 am. Also not fun to carry groceries home that way.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:31 PM on June 6, 2018 [5 favorites]
You know what's also not cool to take the subway at 3am? Performers who do shows that START at midnight which are supposed to be part of this big nightlife culture that supposedly the city likes the play up in tourism.
I was entirely dependent on a 24 hour subway to get to the club to do a gig.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was entirely dependent on a 24 hour subway to get to the club to do a gig.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on June 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Uber guts #1 and works night and day for #2, taxi companies think #2 costs too much but has been ok for #1."
No way, Taxi workers get screwed in plenty of different way.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:12 AM on June 7, 2018
No way, Taxi workers get screwed in plenty of different way.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:12 AM on June 7, 2018
Unlike in the US, apparently, taxis are generally not a horror show in the UK. Workers are comparatively well protected, service is not awful, and a whole heap of the reasons being provided in defense of Uber in this thread simply aren't relevant to a UK context.
I think a lot of the popularity of these TNCs can be explained by looking at the specific conditions in the SF Bay Area where they were mostly developed: slow, unreliable transit, combined with shady and exploitative taxi companies that were also unreliable and did not serve most of the city. This was absolutely not my experience even in, for example, NYC, where the subway exists and buses ran more or less to a schedule, and where at least my experiences with car services in Brooklyn were really positive (recognizing that I'm a cis white guy, so grain of salt -- but in general they were a lot better than it sounds like they were in SF, and that Uber/Lyft have their own problems on this front).
So hearing that these experiences don't generalize to the UK is interesting data but also not super surprising to me. There seems to be a lot of myopic provincialism in SF, where people globalize that because these conditions exist in their shining city, that they must be general intractable problems with cities. In fact, they are really specific failures of city planning and governance that have been mostly solved elsewhere, by means other than enabling punch-clock rentiers to enrich themselves at others' expense.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:29 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of the popularity of these TNCs can be explained by looking at the specific conditions in the SF Bay Area where they were mostly developed: slow, unreliable transit, combined with shady and exploitative taxi companies that were also unreliable and did not serve most of the city. This was absolutely not my experience even in, for example, NYC, where the subway exists and buses ran more or less to a schedule, and where at least my experiences with car services in Brooklyn were really positive (recognizing that I'm a cis white guy, so grain of salt -- but in general they were a lot better than it sounds like they were in SF, and that Uber/Lyft have their own problems on this front).
So hearing that these experiences don't generalize to the UK is interesting data but also not super surprising to me. There seems to be a lot of myopic provincialism in SF, where people globalize that because these conditions exist in their shining city, that they must be general intractable problems with cities. In fact, they are really specific failures of city planning and governance that have been mostly solved elsewhere, by means other than enabling punch-clock rentiers to enrich themselves at others' expense.
posted by en forme de poire at 10:29 AM on June 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
This thread is fascinating from a UK perspective. The yellow cab is such an icon of the USA, I had no idea that your taxi services were so frankly rubbish. And I knew that public transport in the USA was bad, but even big cities having public transport that stops at night is something that I find it difficult to wrap my head around.
posted by Vortisaur at 2:57 PM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Vortisaur at 2:57 PM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
In Miami, the trains shut down by midnight and most of the bus routes stop running between 8PM and 11PM, though there are a few that go to hourly service during the overnight hours. This in a city known for..lateness.
And that's better than most of the country, which is the really sad thing.
posted by wierdo at 3:55 PM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
And that's better than most of the country, which is the really sad thing.
posted by wierdo at 3:55 PM on June 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've never been in a Lyft or Uber that's been freshly pooped in.
I've never been in public transport that's been freshly shat in. I'm going to say that this is another example of Silicon Valley solving San Francisco problems. Like this whole thread, really, which is based on an article which is entirely about Uber's relationship to the law and public goodwill for its operation in the UK England London (OK, they did go slightly provincial).
posted by ambrosen at 12:09 AM on June 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've never been in public transport that's been freshly shat in. I'm going to say that this is another example of Silicon Valley solving San Francisco problems. Like this whole thread, really, which is based on an article which is entirely about Uber's relationship to the law and public goodwill for its operation in
posted by ambrosen at 12:09 AM on June 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Regulatory arbitrage is bringing down living standards globally, so it'd be really nice if people would fully appreciate that the interaction between a one size fits all VC-funded 'disruptive' service and the societal norms and public services its disrupting really need to be looked at and thought about on a case by case basis.
(One especially pertinent one is where people assume that if a sector of society is tightly regulated in the US, it must be even more tightly regulated in other countries. This doesn't apply for, amongst others, tenancy law, unions and yes, taxis.)
posted by ambrosen at 12:24 AM on June 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
(One especially pertinent one is where people assume that if a sector of society is tightly regulated in the US, it must be even more tightly regulated in other countries. This doesn't apply for, amongst others, tenancy law, unions and yes, taxis.)
posted by ambrosen at 12:24 AM on June 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
Taxis in Australia are unreliable, expensive, and racist as fuck. I've had much better luck with Uber. I don't drive, nor can I ride a bike, and sometimes Uber is the only way to get around. For instance, I've had to pick up medication that needed to be refrigerated within one hour of receipt, and there's no way public transport would get there in time.
However, I have a friend who travels with a guide dog who has had horrendous experiences with both taxis and Ubers, but has found that Shebah, the all female service, is wonderful.
posted by daybeforetheday at 2:35 AM on June 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
However, I have a friend who travels with a guide dog who has had horrendous experiences with both taxis and Ubers, but has found that Shebah, the all female service, is wonderful.
posted by daybeforetheday at 2:35 AM on June 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've never been in public transport that's been freshly shat in.
I’m glad for you, but it’s something I’ve experienced in multiple cities across the country on multiple occasions, along with significant harassment, both sexual and otherwise. I have not been harassed by an Uber driver. I have been harassed by taxi drivers.
The ethical issue of whether it is right to pay extra money to avoid these problems while others cannot is a real one, but it is wrong to say that there’s no actual gain from sidestepping public transit and yellow cabs.
posted by corb at 5:35 AM on June 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m glad for you, but it’s something I’ve experienced in multiple cities across the country on multiple occasions, along with significant harassment, both sexual and otherwise. I have not been harassed by an Uber driver. I have been harassed by taxi drivers.
The ethical issue of whether it is right to pay extra money to avoid these problems while others cannot is a real one, but it is wrong to say that there’s no actual gain from sidestepping public transit and yellow cabs.
posted by corb at 5:35 AM on June 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m glad for you, but it’s something I’ve experienced in multiple cities across the country
Which country, though? Because the article in the FPP is about London in the UK.
posted by Dysk at 6:21 AM on June 8, 2018
Which country, though? Because the article in the FPP is about London in the UK.
posted by Dysk at 6:21 AM on June 8, 2018
I've never been in a Lyft or Uber that's been freshly pooped in.
I prefer not to think about how many times I've been in a BART car that's been freshly pooped in.
My first though on reading this was not, 'public transit can be horrible,' but 'what kind of living conditions must that person be subject to that the BART feels like a good place to defecate? Do they have access to clean, safe bathrooms? Are BART trips so long that they really should have a toilet on the trains, like inter-city trains do?'
While we all have agency, we all also exist within environments - and these environments shape our behaviour. If we make our city environments actively hostile to people - such as homeless or marginalized people - do we wonder that they take the only option they see?
posted by jb at 6:29 AM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
I prefer not to think about how many times I've been in a BART car that's been freshly pooped in.
My first though on reading this was not, 'public transit can be horrible,' but 'what kind of living conditions must that person be subject to that the BART feels like a good place to defecate? Do they have access to clean, safe bathrooms? Are BART trips so long that they really should have a toilet on the trains, like inter-city trains do?'
While we all have agency, we all also exist within environments - and these environments shape our behaviour. If we make our city environments actively hostile to people - such as homeless or marginalized people - do we wonder that they take the only option they see?
posted by jb at 6:29 AM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
While we all have agency, we all also exist within environments - and these environments shape our behaviour. If we make our city environments actively hostile to people - such as homeless or marginalized people - do we wonder that they take the only option they see?
Dude you can have empathy for the victims caught living in our monstrous nightmare nation that prompts homeless people to poop on a train, and still NOT WANT TO SIT IN POOP ON YOUR COMMUTE.
If we're at the point where thinking "man, I really don't enjoy encountering human waste at close range on my way to work, that seems like a bad thing" is bourgeois privileged garbage....
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:47 AM on June 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Dude you can have empathy for the victims caught living in our monstrous nightmare nation that prompts homeless people to poop on a train, and still NOT WANT TO SIT IN POOP ON YOUR COMMUTE.
If we're at the point where thinking "man, I really don't enjoy encountering human waste at close range on my way to work, that seems like a bad thing" is bourgeois privileged garbage....
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:47 AM on June 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
I mean the Bay Area has one of the highest rates of homelessness, especially long-term homelessness, in the country. So on the one hand "people keep defecating in our public transit elevators, hallways, trains, and buses faster than we can clean them" is indeed secondary to the primary concern of "thousands of people have nowhere to live except for squalid encampments and Hoovervilles without any facilities." But on the other hand it's still a real problem, and while everyone agrees the primary problem is a crisis, it has proven to be super intractable, if mostly for political reasons, so it's not like we can say "just focus on the real problem and the secondary concerns will take care of themselves." A lot of people are definitely focusing on that problem already, and it is still going to be a giant hard slog that is very unlikely to be solved in the short term -- even setting aside the profoundly cynical, counterproductive bullshit moves Mark Farrell and Ed Lee made in office. Buuuut, on the other other hand, there are definitely bad infrastructure decisions that seem addressable, like how BART has closed all its underground bathrooms since 2001 because of the threat of terrorism (not joking), which seems like a giant confusion of priorities and massively unhelpful. So poop on public transit is a land of contrasts, or something.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:38 AM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 11:38 AM on June 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
like how BART has closed all its underground bathrooms since 2001 because of the threat of terrorism (not joking)
Soooo... instead of poop and bombs in the bathrooms, it's better to have poop and bombs on the trains?
posted by clawsoon at 2:43 PM on June 8, 2018
Soooo... instead of poop and bombs in the bathrooms, it's better to have poop and bombs on the trains?
posted by clawsoon at 2:43 PM on June 8, 2018
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
1) Workers rights
2) Customer convenicence
Uber guts #1 and works night and day for #2, taxi companies think #2 costs too much but has been ok for #1. I have no problem paying the regulated rate for a taxi in a city. I have a problem with calling for a cab, the dispatch not having a clue on how long they're going to be, how they're going to contact me, and then finishing off any further line of inquiry with go fuck yourself and have a nice day. 45 minutes later a shitty Prius may finally show up. Or not. I don't have a fucking clue and the company doesn't give a shit.
posted by Definitely Not Sean Spicer at 4:55 PM on June 5, 2018 [53 favorites]