Dress for Success - 2018 Edition
June 16, 2018 6:04 AM Subscribe
GM's dress code is only two words
Mary Barra has changed the dress code policy from 10 pages to "Dress appropriately":
While GM’s dress code empowers all employees, it’s particularly impactful for women.
Mary Barra has changed the dress code policy from 10 pages to "Dress appropriately":
While GM’s dress code empowers all employees, it’s particularly impactful for women. As Quartz’s Marc Bain has noted, while men can easily repeat suits and slacks, for women, dressing for work has never been more confusing than it is today.And she finds that it affects more than just clothing decisions:
What I realized is that you really need to make sure your managers are empowered—because if they cannot handle ‘dress appropriately,’ what other decisions can they handle? And I realized that often, if you have a lot of overly prescriptive policies and procedures, people will live down to them.
That's super interesting. It seems to me like this solves one big problem (dumb-ass regulations that don't trust employees and are designed to let managers off the hook for really managing) but doesn't address a couple of other ones: dumb-ass managers who have unreasonable or biased ideas about appropriateness, for instance, and also genuine ambiguity about what's appropriate in a given context. But it's definitely a step in the right direction.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:40 AM on June 16, 2018 [38 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:40 AM on June 16, 2018 [38 favorites]
But if you let people own policies themselves—especially at the first level of people supervision—it helps develop them.
Okay, but I can imagine a fair number of people at the first level of people supervision setting really restrictive and/or sexist dress codes, not just the rational-sounding accommodations that are described in the link.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:41 AM on June 16, 2018 [16 favorites]
Okay, but I can imagine a fair number of people at the first level of people supervision setting really restrictive and/or sexist dress codes, not just the rational-sounding accommodations that are described in the link.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:41 AM on June 16, 2018 [16 favorites]
When I was an elementary teacher I discovered early on that the more rules you created for your classroom, the more time you would spend enforcing rules rather than all of the other stuff you're supposed to be doing. I finally narrowed down classroom rules to
Be good.
Work hard.
And that worked really well. Even 10 year olds knew what that meant most of the time.
It is insane that an org would hire adults and trust them to meet with government contacts, but still expect they're too...stupid? naive? malicious? to know how to dress for such meetings without a 10-page rulebook.
If you treat adults like children, you will spend more time running a daycare than a company.
posted by nushustu at 6:43 AM on June 16, 2018 [116 favorites]
Be good.
Work hard.
And that worked really well. Even 10 year olds knew what that meant most of the time.
It is insane that an org would hire adults and trust them to meet with government contacts, but still expect they're too...stupid? naive? malicious? to know how to dress for such meetings without a 10-page rulebook.
If you treat adults like children, you will spend more time running a daycare than a company.
posted by nushustu at 6:43 AM on June 16, 2018 [116 favorites]
Goodhart's law is relevant to minimizing policies.
posted by Brian B. at 6:45 AM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 6:45 AM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
I was immediately reminded of a municipal directors meeting where the dress code policy was discussed for three hours. The dress code was to cover employees who worked outside doing manual labour, employees in Uniform (firefighters), front-line workers, tech support who worked virtually, and directors themselves. It was a mess. One after another of the men stood up to complain about miniskirts (!! Which is weird because we had a much larger number of women with yoga pants) while the CAO was standing there in her own miniskirt. The sexism has to be addressed proactively, for sure.
posted by saucysault at 6:48 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 6:48 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
I really liked that Marc Bain article, because holy fuck have I noticed the phenomenon he's talking about. I've recently gained some weight, and my weight seems to be shifting as I barrel towards middle age, and I need to buy new work clothes. My office doesn't have a dress code, so this is entirely about what I find appropriate, but I can't figure out what the fuck I'm supposed to wear to work. I can't even figure out where grownup women who aren't completely frumpy are supposed to shop these days. I think I've aged out of Modcloth, and Uniqlo seems to have abandoned anyone who isn't tall and lithe and inclined to wear muted colors that look like crap on me, and I am completely at a loss.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:01 AM on June 16, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:01 AM on June 16, 2018 [23 favorites]
I talked to the team, we brainstormed, and we agreed that the four people who occasionally need to meet with government officials will keep a pair of dress pants in their locker. Problem solved.'”
At my former consulting firm, which had about 20 people in our office, we had a closet where everyone kept a hanging suitbag containing a complete set of nice business clothes and related accessories, down to socks and shoes. It started because there was a move to switch to "office casual" and people balked. "This means I have to buy a third set of clothes: suits for road trips, casual and athletic clothes for my real life, and now a bunch of cashmere turtlenecks and wool slacks for winter and i-don't-even-know-what for the DC summer months? No thank-you" went a typical objection.
So we had a big meeting about it and decided that the reality is that most clients were located a plane-ride away and the ones who weren't seldom came to the office. We created the closet so that anyone with a last-minute meeting could look the part. If a VIP was expected we all tried to look nice, which sometimes meant people sprinting to the closet and then disappearing behind closed office doors as the witching hour approached. After that we all wore pretty much whatever we wanted, short of torn paint-spattered t-shirts. It was glorious.
posted by carmicha at 7:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [59 favorites]
At my former consulting firm, which had about 20 people in our office, we had a closet where everyone kept a hanging suitbag containing a complete set of nice business clothes and related accessories, down to socks and shoes. It started because there was a move to switch to "office casual" and people balked. "This means I have to buy a third set of clothes: suits for road trips, casual and athletic clothes for my real life, and now a bunch of cashmere turtlenecks and wool slacks for winter and i-don't-even-know-what for the DC summer months? No thank-you" went a typical objection.
So we had a big meeting about it and decided that the reality is that most clients were located a plane-ride away and the ones who weren't seldom came to the office. We created the closet so that anyone with a last-minute meeting could look the part. If a VIP was expected we all tried to look nice, which sometimes meant people sprinting to the closet and then disappearing behind closed office doors as the witching hour approached. After that we all wore pretty much whatever we wanted, short of torn paint-spattered t-shirts. It was glorious.
posted by carmicha at 7:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [59 favorites]
From the link, I expected it to be "Wear clothes." but the actual one is fine too.
posted by SansPoint at 7:04 AM on June 16, 2018 [46 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 7:04 AM on June 16, 2018 [46 favorites]
Love it!
Though not a woman, I've often wrestled with dresscodes working as part of the in-house "art department" in a corporate setting (you know...the weird guy in the back who does his art thing for our sales brochures). We're not exactly the "slacks and tie" crowd. "Dress Appropriate" is really focused on the individual and their personal understanding and ownership of their position. It's very liberating and empowering.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:05 AM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Though not a woman, I've often wrestled with dresscodes working as part of the in-house "art department" in a corporate setting (you know...the weird guy in the back who does his art thing for our sales brochures). We're not exactly the "slacks and tie" crowd. "Dress Appropriate" is really focused on the individual and their personal understanding and ownership of their position. It's very liberating and empowering.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:05 AM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm much more in favor of minimalist guidelines like this that are implemented by well-meaning people than exhaustive guidelines that are followed to the letter brainlessly.
Outside corporate circles, Codes of Conduct are a big topic for open source communities - and a lot of people argue against CoCs on the basis of not covering every possible eventuality. "But what if we make a CoC and then somebody does something outside the CoC? How do we deal with that?"
Look, bad actors are going to act bad. All the words in the world won't prevent that. And you can't avoid difficult conversations, at least not if you have any hope of having a reasonable working environment.
posted by jzb at 7:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
Outside corporate circles, Codes of Conduct are a big topic for open source communities - and a lot of people argue against CoCs on the basis of not covering every possible eventuality. "But what if we make a CoC and then somebody does something outside the CoC? How do we deal with that?"
Look, bad actors are going to act bad. All the words in the world won't prevent that. And you can't avoid difficult conversations, at least not if you have any hope of having a reasonable working environment.
posted by jzb at 7:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
I love this.
When I worked in IT at Whole Foods there was a guy in Vibram Five Fingers in the Datacenter wrestling a Sun E10k out of a rack to lift it up a couple of U’s so he could do some work under the rack.
The corner of this 40-inch fully loaded hunk of sharp metal weighing a few hundred pounds was teetering like a sword of Damocles over his toes in these neoprene running socks.
My job as a network engineer at the time had “deputized” me as someone will full authority over what happened in the Datacenter.
So I lunged over to the rack and gripped the huge honkin-ass server. Leaning over the chassis (this thing came up to my waist) I yelled “WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING IN HERE IN THAT FOOTWEAR!”
he looked at me as if the thought had never crossed his mind. (In fact it hadn’t!)
He looked down at the corner of the server about to sever several of his toes off.
“GET OUT OF HERE NOW” I yelled.
He let go of the server and stood up and thanked me for it. And said something like “I guess I never considered it...” and I replied with something to the effect of “you’ve never had a real, actual hardworking job for one damn day of you life have you?” And his response I shit you not was close to verbatim “yeah you’re right, I’ve only ever worked in corporate tech jobs, This is my first job where I ever came into the Datacenter” (dude was in his late 40’s/early 50’s at this time)
He said “thank you for caring about me” as he left and I yelled at his back “I don’t give a shit about you! The only thing I care is not having to personally mop your body parts and blood off the Datacenter floor!”
Friends, Whole Foods has a multi page dress policy and Vibram Five Fingers were totally cool for the corporate tech folks to wear.
“Dress appropriately” is miles better than any other dress policy I’ve ever encountered.
posted by nikaspark at 7:08 AM on June 16, 2018 [79 favorites]
When I worked in IT at Whole Foods there was a guy in Vibram Five Fingers in the Datacenter wrestling a Sun E10k out of a rack to lift it up a couple of U’s so he could do some work under the rack.
The corner of this 40-inch fully loaded hunk of sharp metal weighing a few hundred pounds was teetering like a sword of Damocles over his toes in these neoprene running socks.
My job as a network engineer at the time had “deputized” me as someone will full authority over what happened in the Datacenter.
So I lunged over to the rack and gripped the huge honkin-ass server. Leaning over the chassis (this thing came up to my waist) I yelled “WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING IN HERE IN THAT FOOTWEAR!”
he looked at me as if the thought had never crossed his mind. (In fact it hadn’t!)
He looked down at the corner of the server about to sever several of his toes off.
“GET OUT OF HERE NOW” I yelled.
He let go of the server and stood up and thanked me for it. And said something like “I guess I never considered it...” and I replied with something to the effect of “you’ve never had a real, actual hardworking job for one damn day of you life have you?” And his response I shit you not was close to verbatim “yeah you’re right, I’ve only ever worked in corporate tech jobs, This is my first job where I ever came into the Datacenter” (dude was in his late 40’s/early 50’s at this time)
He said “thank you for caring about me” as he left and I yelled at his back “I don’t give a shit about you! The only thing I care is not having to personally mop your body parts and blood off the Datacenter floor!”
Friends, Whole Foods has a multi page dress policy and Vibram Five Fingers were totally cool for the corporate tech folks to wear.
“Dress appropriately” is miles better than any other dress policy I’ve ever encountered.
posted by nikaspark at 7:08 AM on June 16, 2018 [79 favorites]
Yeah, I don’t think so.
It’s nice to have a reset every once in a while, but do people really think that complex codes of dress/conduct/laws just spring up from nothing?
First time someone gets fired for not dressing "appropriately" it’ll wind up in court, and for good reason as "appropriate" is a measure that can be abused nine ways from Sunday.
We’ll see where their dress code/PR stunt is in 5 years.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:32 AM on June 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
It’s nice to have a reset every once in a while, but do people really think that complex codes of dress/conduct/laws just spring up from nothing?
First time someone gets fired for not dressing "appropriately" it’ll wind up in court, and for good reason as "appropriate" is a measure that can be abused nine ways from Sunday.
We’ll see where their dress code/PR stunt is in 5 years.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:32 AM on June 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
From the link, I expected it to be "Wear clothes." but the actual one is fine too.
Wear clothes. Not too much. Mostly plants.
posted by lollusc at 7:33 AM on June 16, 2018 [131 favorites]
Wear clothes. Not too much. Mostly plants.
posted by lollusc at 7:33 AM on June 16, 2018 [131 favorites]
"Pants required"?
posted by sammyo at 7:33 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 7:33 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
new GM code of conduct: "be excellent to each other"
posted by thelonius at 7:33 AM on June 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:33 AM on June 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
One after another of the men stood up to complain about miniskirts (!! Which is weird because we had a much larger number of women with yoga pants) while the CAO was standing there in her own miniskirt.
For my entire 22 year career in corporate offices, women have been allowed to wear skirts and open toed footwear while men must wear business casual full length pants and closed shoes. I’m not trying to deny sexism where it occurs, but I can understand being frustrated by the policy when it’s 90 degree weather.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:35 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
For my entire 22 year career in corporate offices, women have been allowed to wear skirts and open toed footwear while men must wear business casual full length pants and closed shoes. I’m not trying to deny sexism where it occurs, but I can understand being frustrated by the policy when it’s 90 degree weather.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:35 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
Barra sounds amazing and I believe corporate America should have more CEOs like her - meaning both "worked-up-through-the-ranks" and female. Yet.
"Don't be evil" sounded really smart once too.
posted by Western Infidels at 7:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
"Don't be evil" sounded really smart once too.
posted by Western Infidels at 7:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Wear clothes. Not too much. Mostly plants.
Mostly pants, surely.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [69 favorites]
Mostly pants, surely.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [69 favorites]
How funny - I actually read it as mostly pants till I saw your comment!
posted by hilaryjade at 7:45 AM on June 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by hilaryjade at 7:45 AM on June 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
My UK central government department has no formal dress code and I wear jeans and hiking shoes most days, so the bit about being prepared to meet government officials made me smile a little. (I do scrub up a bit for more important meetings, but 99% of the time, casual clothes are totally fine).
posted by knapah at 7:46 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by knapah at 7:46 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Maybe they're advocating for natural but non-animal based clothing fibres?
posted by jacquilynne at 7:47 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:47 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Pants required"?
US pants or UK pants?
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:48 AM on June 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
US pants or UK pants?
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:48 AM on June 16, 2018 [29 favorites]
"Don't be evil" sounded really smart once too.
Nope. It was never not creepy.
posted by barkingpumpkin at 7:49 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Nope. It was never not creepy.
posted by barkingpumpkin at 7:49 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
I can understand being frustrated by the policy when it’s 90 degree weather.
But, complaining about miniskirts does nothing to make them more comfortable, if that was the motivation. They should be advocating for more flexible clothing options for themselves, right?
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:56 AM on June 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
But, complaining about miniskirts does nothing to make them more comfortable, if that was the motivation. They should be advocating for more flexible clothing options for themselves, right?
posted by ghost phoneme at 7:56 AM on June 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
They should be advocating for more flexible clothing options for themselves, right?
“Hey can I wear shorts please?”
“No.”
posted by Fleebnork at 8:00 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
“Hey can I wear shorts please?”
“No.”
posted by Fleebnork at 8:00 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah I can't believe I overlooked the obvious p(l)ants joke, but in my defence they don't rhyme in my accent and pants for me means underpants.
posted by lollusc at 8:04 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by lollusc at 8:04 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
What's inappropriate about underpants?
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 AM on June 16, 2018
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 AM on June 16, 2018
Ahh, I see. I was reading the miniskirt complaints as specifically short skirts that some may consider too revealing vs. skirts in general (which would be more parallel to shorts).
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:10 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:10 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Before starting a tech job a while back, I was on the phone with my new manager and I asked "is there a dress code?".
After a pause he replied "you have to wear pants."
So of course I asked "does that mean no shorts, or just cover your underwear?"
It meant cover your underwear.
posted by allegedly at 8:11 AM on June 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
After a pause he replied "you have to wear pants."
So of course I asked "does that mean no shorts, or just cover your underwear?"
It meant cover your underwear.
posted by allegedly at 8:11 AM on June 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
For my entire 22 year career in corporate offices, women have been allowed to wear skirts and open toed footwear while men must wear business casual full length pants and closed shoes. I’m not trying to deny sexism where it occurs, but I can understand being frustrated by the policy when it’s 90 degree weather.
You know, I'd love to wear skirts and open-toed shoes to work when it's 90+ (both temperature and humidity) in the middle of an East Coast summer. But the office air conditioning is always freezing, so every woman on my team (6 women, 2 men) has a space heater and a stash of cardigans.
posted by basalganglia at 8:15 AM on June 16, 2018 [48 favorites]
You know, I'd love to wear skirts and open-toed shoes to work when it's 90+ (both temperature and humidity) in the middle of an East Coast summer. But the office air conditioning is always freezing, so every woman on my team (6 women, 2 men) has a space heater and a stash of cardigans.
posted by basalganglia at 8:15 AM on June 16, 2018 [48 favorites]
The moment I stopped caring about my company's dress code was the day I wore jeans to work on a day other than Official Bluejeans Friday(tm).
A manager walked by and snuffled some passive-aggressive comment on the lines of "oh, I didn't know it was Friday already?".
My reply was "if this company really cared about appearances to customers and coworkers, we wouldn't be sitting in this ratty-ass office that is filled with beat-up cubicle furniture from an IBM garage sale circa 1979. We would also paint this place once in a while, shampoo the nasty carpets, and not have bathrooms that look like complete ass".
Nobody has challenged me on it since.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:16 AM on June 16, 2018 [104 favorites]
A manager walked by and snuffled some passive-aggressive comment on the lines of "oh, I didn't know it was Friday already?".
My reply was "if this company really cared about appearances to customers and coworkers, we wouldn't be sitting in this ratty-ass office that is filled with beat-up cubicle furniture from an IBM garage sale circa 1979. We would also paint this place once in a while, shampoo the nasty carpets, and not have bathrooms that look like complete ass".
Nobody has challenged me on it since.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:16 AM on June 16, 2018 [104 favorites]
Yeah I get that the AC is the flip side of the complaint. The happy medium would be if the rule were such that everyone could wear clothing of similar length and we could turn the AC up a few notches. Unfortunately these decisions usually come from the top.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:19 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Fleebnork at 8:19 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
For my entire 22 year career in corporate offices, women have been allowed to wear skirts and open toed footwear while men must wear business casual full length pants and closed shoes.In some ways, women have more options, but we also have a lot more scrutiny. So, for instance, when you requested to be able to wear shorts, were you envisioning that you would shave or wax your legs before you wore them? Because in most workplaces, that would be expected of women who came to work in a short skirt. Have you ever stopped to think about the state of your pedicure before you wore sandals?
I would really love to be able to throw on a pair of khakis and a button-down every day, the way that most guys at my office do, but I can't do that, because I cannot buy a button-down that fits me anyplace within a hundred-mile radius of me. I could mail order them from the UK or Poland, but that would mean not being able to try them on first or check out the quality of the fabric, and there's a place in New York that makes them for $180 a pop. So instead, I spend a lot of effort trying to find work outfits that are comfortable, appropriate, and not hideously ugly, which honestly is not how I would prefer to spend my time in a perfect world.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:22 AM on June 16, 2018 [82 favorites]
but do people really think that complex codes of dress/conduct/laws just spring up from nothing?
They sprung up mostly from patriarchal gender binarist sexist bullshit, reinforced by HR groups who are more afraid of potential legal issues than actual settled law.
posted by nikaspark at 8:29 AM on June 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
They sprung up mostly from patriarchal gender binarist sexist bullshit, reinforced by HR groups who are more afraid of potential legal issues than actual settled law.
posted by nikaspark at 8:29 AM on June 16, 2018 [27 favorites]
Are proper shoes in that environment not a PPE requirement/occupational health and safety rather than an office dress requirement?
This was in a private data center located within the HQ building and from what I can tell the only regulations that applied were local building and electrical codes.
posted by nikaspark at 8:34 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
This was in a private data center located within the HQ building and from what I can tell the only regulations that applied were local building and electrical codes.
posted by nikaspark at 8:34 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
First time someone gets fired for not dressing "appropriately" it’ll wind up in court, and for good reason as "appropriate" is a measure that can be abused nine ways from Sunday.
Surely this is an argument against summarily firing people, and when they are found to be dressing inappropriately, defining what they should wear on their personal improvement plan.
posted by ambrosen at 8:36 AM on June 16, 2018 [20 favorites]
Surely this is an argument against summarily firing people, and when they are found to be dressing inappropriately, defining what they should wear on their personal improvement plan.
posted by ambrosen at 8:36 AM on June 16, 2018 [20 favorites]
Have you ever stopped to think about the state of your pedicure before you wore sandals?
I've been grumbling internally about this the last few weeks as it's gone into the 90s here. I want to wear sandals, but my toes are a mess. I resent having to pay $30 every few weeks for a pedicure just so that sandals look "appropriate," but at the same time I get that men might not ever be "appropriate" wearing sandals to work. Then I realize that I have no idea if there is actually any part of our dress code that address any of that, but I would still feel "inappropriate" wearing open-toed shoes without a pedicure. Shoes should not be this complicated.
posted by lazuli at 8:36 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've been grumbling internally about this the last few weeks as it's gone into the 90s here. I want to wear sandals, but my toes are a mess. I resent having to pay $30 every few weeks for a pedicure just so that sandals look "appropriate," but at the same time I get that men might not ever be "appropriate" wearing sandals to work. Then I realize that I have no idea if there is actually any part of our dress code that address any of that, but I would still feel "inappropriate" wearing open-toed shoes without a pedicure. Shoes should not be this complicated.
posted by lazuli at 8:36 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Love this: fewer rules are better.
There's one big caveat: you have to trust that everyone on your team has a similar understanding of what "appropriately" means.
This is another strong argument for the importance of a good company culture, and hiring for people who fit that culture. It greatly lessens the need for rules.
posted by tgrundke at 8:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
There's one big caveat: you have to trust that everyone on your team has a similar understanding of what "appropriately" means.
This is another strong argument for the importance of a good company culture, and hiring for people who fit that culture. It greatly lessens the need for rules.
posted by tgrundke at 8:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
women have been allowed to wear skirts and open toed footwear while men must wear business casual full length pants and closed shoes
To be clear, men were wearing shorts and sandles to work. It was specifically that short skirts are “sexy”. Jeans were pretty common too, as were t-shirts, on both men and women. The whole organisation was pretty causal (see comment about yoga pants) so the sudden interest in policing miniskirts was just weird.
posted by saucysault at 8:44 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
To be clear, men were wearing shorts and sandles to work. It was specifically that short skirts are “sexy”. Jeans were pretty common too, as were t-shirts, on both men and women. The whole organisation was pretty causal (see comment about yoga pants) so the sudden interest in policing miniskirts was just weird.
posted by saucysault at 8:44 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Ok yeah, that's just stupid and I totally get your point.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:50 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Fleebnork at 8:50 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
So sad it is true, but with most reasonable rules, SOMEONE will find a way to mess it up for everybody.
posted by Samizdata at 8:53 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 8:53 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
I do get the appeal of fewer rules, but also in my experience moves in this direction just shift the balance in favor of management who now gets to interpret the simpler rules as well as enforce them.
Look at it this way: People joke about "Union Rules" but look what happens when power is shifted in favor of workers. They make rules designed to protect themselves from abuse and exploitation. Rules can be a refuge for the disadvantaged and marginalized.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:54 AM on June 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
Look at it this way: People joke about "Union Rules" but look what happens when power is shifted in favor of workers. They make rules designed to protect themselves from abuse and exploitation. Rules can be a refuge for the disadvantaged and marginalized.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 8:54 AM on June 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
OK, so what the hell is "appropriate" then? People wear a wide range of things to work, is it enough for my clothes to keep me safe and comfortable and cover my genitals, or do they need to meet a higher standard? If so, what standard? Who decides, and what are their rules? Can you write them down please so that if there's a dispute we can both refer to them? Maybe you could put them somewhere that everyone has access to, like say the employee handbook?
To me, a dress code that is just "dress appropriately" basically means, "We're not going to tell you the rules, but we'll sure tell you when you break them. Also, the rules will be inconsistent, capricious, and probably discriminatory and there will be nothing you can do about it."
I hate this.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:58 AM on June 16, 2018 [58 favorites]
To me, a dress code that is just "dress appropriately" basically means, "We're not going to tell you the rules, but we'll sure tell you when you break them. Also, the rules will be inconsistent, capricious, and probably discriminatory and there will be nothing you can do about it."
I hate this.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:58 AM on June 16, 2018 [58 favorites]
I would love to see the previous 10 page code. For all we know it might have been a master piece on corporate dress.
posted by haemanu at 9:01 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by haemanu at 9:01 AM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
The funny thing about dress codes is that most people want to fit in, not shock. Most people are there to work and just want to go about their day. The rest have to be dealt with case by case, depending on job role, client expectations, and so on. Which is what managers are for.
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
They actually had to build a whole separate facility for the software division of the huge medical center that I work for because they realized that they could never get software engineers to wear suits but they couldn't bring themselves to relax the dress code for the headquarters. Occasionally you'll see the local managers in suits because they have a meeting downtown with upper management that day.
posted by octothorpe at 9:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 9:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
In other words, look at what other people in your area/ role wear, and wear that. It really isn't hard.
posted by emjaybee at 9:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this rule sounds terrible. Ambiguity in the written rules means management can play out whatever petty whims they have.
posted by dazed_one at 9:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by dazed_one at 9:03 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Rules can be a refuge for the disadvantaged and marginalized.
As a trans person I don’t know if I qualify as this but dress codes can be hell for trans people because rules are made by those in power for those power and are generally used as a method for keeping “others” out.
I am certain this two word policy will become a 2 thousand word policy over the next ten years. However, as a policy reset it is my opinion a great way to clear out the crap that built the policies from a time where corporations were actively hostile to inclusion and diversity.
posted by nikaspark at 9:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [24 favorites]
As a trans person I don’t know if I qualify as this but dress codes can be hell for trans people because rules are made by those in power for those power and are generally used as a method for keeping “others” out.
I am certain this two word policy will become a 2 thousand word policy over the next ten years. However, as a policy reset it is my opinion a great way to clear out the crap that built the policies from a time where corporations were actively hostile to inclusion and diversity.
posted by nikaspark at 9:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [24 favorites]
If my employer is going to be particularly fussy about what I wear, I want a dress code that starts something like "Here is some cash. We are giving you x dollars a year above your regular salary to spend strictly on work clothes and shoes."
posted by pracowity at 9:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 9:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
My daughter's school (private) says that clothing should be "clean, neat, and appropriate for the day's program." That's it. And unlike elementary school, where she was sent home at least 2x for dress code violations, she's never had to change her clothing despite wearing things that are pretty out there. But a spaghetti strap top does not affect learning unless the teachers let it.
posted by vespabelle at 9:07 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by vespabelle at 9:07 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
Stuff like this is one of the reasons I'm a committed field person, by the way. I wear appropriate footwear (where "appropriate" means "safe"), comfortable pants that may well literally have holes in them, and a company t-shirt. In the winter I also wear a company hoodie. Good to go.
Let's all just issue company jumpsuits and call it a day. I would be totally fine with that. Issue everybody uniforms for working hours. It would level the playing field, prevent ambiguity, and nobody would have to spend money on fancy clothes if they didn't want to. Just make sure the jumpsuits come in lots of sizes.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:13 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Let's all just issue company jumpsuits and call it a day. I would be totally fine with that. Issue everybody uniforms for working hours. It would level the playing field, prevent ambiguity, and nobody would have to spend money on fancy clothes if they didn't want to. Just make sure the jumpsuits come in lots of sizes.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:13 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Just make sure you don’t ever have to urgently poop :-)
posted by nikaspark at 9:17 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 9:17 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
pracowity: "If my employer is going to be particularly fussy about what I wear, I want a dress code that starts something like "Here is some cash. We are giving you x dollars a year above your regular salary to spend strictly on work clothes and shoes.""
I'm still annoyed twenty years later at being forced to wear suits for my undergrad internship at a large glass and chemical company's headquarters. How much did they pay me for to show up in a suit and tie? A whole $8 an hour! Fortunately, I was skinny back then and managed to find a week's worth of clothing at the GoodWill for about $80 but it was still a shitty policy.
posted by octothorpe at 9:18 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm still annoyed twenty years later at being forced to wear suits for my undergrad internship at a large glass and chemical company's headquarters. How much did they pay me for to show up in a suit and tie? A whole $8 an hour! Fortunately, I was skinny back then and managed to find a week's worth of clothing at the GoodWill for about $80 but it was still a shitty policy.
posted by octothorpe at 9:18 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Uniforms don't level the playing field, because people's bodies are different. And that's part of the problem with very detailed dress codes: they don't take into account differences in people's bodies, hair, and what have you. So, for instance, a lot of school dress codes say that girls' shorts have to be longer than their fingertips. That means that tall, long-limbed girls often have to wear bermuda shorts that come down to their knees, and I, a short-limbed, long-torsoed person, could get away with wearing bikini bottoms. Or Catholic school uniforms often require button-down blouses that look fine on thin girls with small chests and sloppy on curvier girls. Dress codes often assume binary gender presentation, and they frequently assume that white people are the default, which is particularly problematic with requirements about hairstyles. I understand the desire for specificity, but in practice I think that often doesn't work. And then when you try to make it work by coming up with more and more-complex rules, you end up in your boss's office while someone with a ruler checks the length of your skirt, which is nobody's idea of how things should work.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:22 AM on June 16, 2018 [57 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:22 AM on June 16, 2018 [57 favorites]
After a pause he replied "you have to wear pants."
That's because the dress code used to be "comfortable" until one day some guy got a little *too* comfortable.
posted by Definitely Not Sean Spicer at 9:27 AM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
That's because the dress code used to be "comfortable" until one day some guy got a little *too* comfortable.
posted by Definitely Not Sean Spicer at 9:27 AM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
*EVERY* corporate rule exists because some numbskull went too far or did something [unethical, inappropriate, disgusting, borderline illegal, costly, just plain stupid, etc etc etc]
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:36 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:36 AM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
Thanks for the post! I like the new rule.
This is another strong argument for the importance of a good company culture, and hiring for people who fit that culture. It greatly lessens the need for rules.
I agree with the first part of that statement. I greatly disagree with the second part of that statement, at least as it tends to be implemented in the tech industry. Example (full-disclosure, self link):
Another hiring myth, especially prevalent in Silicon Valley, is the belief that all employees should fit well with a company’s specific culture. Max Levchin, co-founder and former CTO of PayPal, tells a story of a time when PayPal rejected a candidate who aced all the engineering tests but who said he liked to play hoops. “No PayPal people would ever have used the word hoops,” Levchin told a class of would-be entrepreneurs. “Probably no one even knew how to play hoops. Basketball would be bad enough. But hoops?”
Levchin thought he was telling a success story about hiring for startups. But he was also telling a story about a type of bias that hurts employers as well as job candidates. “Usually when people talk about hiring for fit or culture fit, it’s a shortcut for saying I want to like you,” says Ji-A Min, a research analyst for Ideal Candidate, a Toronto-based company that uses predictive analytics to help employers hire sales professionals. “That’s where hiring breaks down and all these biases are introduced.”
I guess I am still reeling from the no-longer-current news about a San Francisco start up that had a sex room at its office. Like, hiring for culture fit is a good idea only if the company culture is appropriate, professional, and healthy. Anyway, I think this new dress code is great.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:39 AM on June 16, 2018 [26 favorites]
This is another strong argument for the importance of a good company culture, and hiring for people who fit that culture. It greatly lessens the need for rules.
I agree with the first part of that statement. I greatly disagree with the second part of that statement, at least as it tends to be implemented in the tech industry. Example (full-disclosure, self link):
Another hiring myth, especially prevalent in Silicon Valley, is the belief that all employees should fit well with a company’s specific culture. Max Levchin, co-founder and former CTO of PayPal, tells a story of a time when PayPal rejected a candidate who aced all the engineering tests but who said he liked to play hoops. “No PayPal people would ever have used the word hoops,” Levchin told a class of would-be entrepreneurs. “Probably no one even knew how to play hoops. Basketball would be bad enough. But hoops?”
Levchin thought he was telling a success story about hiring for startups. But he was also telling a story about a type of bias that hurts employers as well as job candidates. “Usually when people talk about hiring for fit or culture fit, it’s a shortcut for saying I want to like you,” says Ji-A Min, a research analyst for Ideal Candidate, a Toronto-based company that uses predictive analytics to help employers hire sales professionals. “That’s where hiring breaks down and all these biases are introduced.”
I guess I am still reeling from the no-longer-current news about a San Francisco start up that had a sex room at its office. Like, hiring for culture fit is a good idea only if the company culture is appropriate, professional, and healthy. Anyway, I think this new dress code is great.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:39 AM on June 16, 2018 [26 favorites]
Have you ever stopped to think about the state of your pedicure before you wore sandals?
That’s what the socks are for.
posted by darkstar at 9:41 AM on June 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
That’s what the socks are for.
posted by darkstar at 9:41 AM on June 16, 2018 [30 favorites]
Just make sure you don’t ever have to urgently poop :-)
That's what the little trap door at the back is for! Make sure whoever does procurement at your company gets the jumpsuits with the little trap door.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
That's what the little trap door at the back is for! Make sure whoever does procurement at your company gets the jumpsuits with the little trap door.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:42 AM on June 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
Friends, Whole Foods has a multi page dress policy and Vibram Five Fingers were totally cool for the corporate tech folks to wear.
Not my region. Anyone in a store, including corporate staff visiting, had to wear those ugly non-slip restaurant shoes or better. Many wore reinforced toe boots.
posted by greermahoney at 9:58 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Not my region. Anyone in a store, including corporate staff visiting, had to wear those ugly non-slip restaurant shoes or better. Many wore reinforced toe boots.
posted by greermahoney at 9:58 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
As a first responder, I like wearing a uniform everyday. It makes work easier when I don’t have to worry about outfits and I don’t have to worry when a uniform ages out or needs replaced because it’s faded or grody. However. We have multiple uniforms. As a captain, I’m *supposed* to wear an embroidered polo because I mostly ride the computer these days, but the polls are hot and I do more physical work than most of the other captains. I generally choose to wear a Class C, which is uniform shorts, belt, uniform t-shirt, black socks, black shoes, and a hat. Unfortunately, while it’s a great uniform for “working,” it lacks a lot of professionalism; but the public will generally approach one of my coworkers, a dude in a polo, before me because they look like they’re “in charge.” In 90+ heat with added humidity, I sweat through the t-shirts and shorts fast enough where I have to change uniforms at least once, sometimes twice a day. I could wear my badge on my belt, but I find that showy. I will usually put on a polo when I go out to do pub ed, pre-plans, or bar checks though.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 10:11 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by sara is disenchanted at 10:11 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I have no idea whether I have a dress code. I was told to dress appropriately and I know that doesn't include jeans because no one in my area wears jeans. We work at cubicals all day and sometimes give training workshops (where I'm inevitably better dressed than the people attending because I train university faculty and TAs who most definitely do not have a dress code). The people who do more hands on hardware stuff wear jeans because they're moving equipment around. I don't think most employees really have a problem figuring out what to wear just by looking around their immediate vicinity.
I was the only woman on my team for a long while though and that's a bit of a conundrum because I can't just copy what everyone else is wearing. There's one guy who wears cargo pants (technically not jeans!) and rugby shirts (university branded and thus more acceptable?) and a couple more who wear khakis and polos or button downs (no ties ever). So I have to kind of find the lady equivalent. I fucking hate clothes and am on Team Star Trek Jumpsuits so having to think about it makes me cranky.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:12 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I was the only woman on my team for a long while though and that's a bit of a conundrum because I can't just copy what everyone else is wearing. There's one guy who wears cargo pants (technically not jeans!) and rugby shirts (university branded and thus more acceptable?) and a couple more who wear khakis and polos or button downs (no ties ever). So I have to kind of find the lady equivalent. I fucking hate clothes and am on Team Star Trek Jumpsuits so having to think about it makes me cranky.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:12 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
...but I would still feel "inappropriate" wearing open-toed shoes without a pedicure.
No no, see, it's okay. I do it all the time. Every day, in fact. And I know it's okay, because when I noticed a few years ago that all of the other women wearing sandals also had pedicures, I pulled aside a professor I trust and I asked her if there was some cultural rule or norm I wasn't aware of (because I am largely unaware of these things, and I'm not the pedicure type) that said you're not supposed to wear sandals unless your toenails are painted. She said No, it's fine. She'd read it in People magazine.
So there's your answer, and there's your documentation.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:14 AM on June 16, 2018 [21 favorites]
No no, see, it's okay. I do it all the time. Every day, in fact. And I know it's okay, because when I noticed a few years ago that all of the other women wearing sandals also had pedicures, I pulled aside a professor I trust and I asked her if there was some cultural rule or norm I wasn't aware of (because I am largely unaware of these things, and I'm not the pedicure type) that said you're not supposed to wear sandals unless your toenails are painted. She said No, it's fine. She'd read it in People magazine.
So there's your answer, and there's your documentation.
posted by mudpuppie at 10:14 AM on June 16, 2018 [21 favorites]
→ the day I wore jeans to work on a day other than Official Bluejeans Friday(tm).
aaagh. The memories. The memories of working for a utility that you were allowed to wear jeans on a Friday if you'd stumped up something like $50 to charity that year. You got a special blue dot on your ID card.
posted by scruss at 10:16 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
aaagh. The memories. The memories of working for a utility that you were allowed to wear jeans on a Friday if you'd stumped up something like $50 to charity that year. You got a special blue dot on your ID card.
posted by scruss at 10:16 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I grew up in one of the Detroit-area suburbs where all the white auto industry middle managers live, and I was totally expecting this to include a story where, for example, a Black woman comes to work with her hair braided and gets harassed for it. The thing that concerns me about an open-ended policy like this is that it's too easy for people to assume that their own narrow conception of what's "tacky" or "inappropriate" is universal.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:21 AM on June 16, 2018 [24 favorites]
posted by selfmedicating at 10:21 AM on June 16, 2018 [24 favorites]
Also, I wear skirts and dresses without pantyhose because they are the devil's sheer membrane, and I don't shave my legs. My attitude is basically "I wish a motherfucker would". Seriously, try to say shit about my legs, I dare you. Fortunately, no one ever has.
Hilariously, my husband could (he doesn't, but he could) wear jeans every day even though he works at a law firm because he works in the same physical area as IT and everyone knows you can't make those dudes dress up, so they just blanket said, everyone on this floor, do whatever, knock yourselves out.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:22 AM on June 16, 2018 [20 favorites]
Hilariously, my husband could (he doesn't, but he could) wear jeans every day even though he works at a law firm because he works in the same physical area as IT and everyone knows you can't make those dudes dress up, so they just blanket said, everyone on this floor, do whatever, knock yourselves out.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:22 AM on June 16, 2018 [20 favorites]
At my office we've have had a corporate "dress appropriately" code for a few years, so mid management wear shirt and pants, upper level management and salespeople wear ties, and most of us IT types wear t-shirts and jeans. Dressing up just means not wearing a Doctor Who tee.
Then again, telecommuting means most of the time I'm working in my pajamas.
posted by sukeban at 10:24 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Then again, telecommuting means most of the time I'm working in my pajamas.
posted by sukeban at 10:24 AM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Once a year my principal used to give a little halfhearted speech about how we shouldn’t wear jeans and how the female teachers, if they were going to wear flip flops, should at least wear fancy ones with a flower glued to the top. Everyone would say ok and then wear whatever the hell we wanted. We haven’t heard that speech in a while. I’ve worn jeans and a black t-shirt every day for the last 10 Years or so, and my classes don’t descend into chaos. Now I wear bright orange crocs as well; kids LOVE that shit, and they’re super comfy.
posted by Huck500 at 10:31 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Huck500 at 10:31 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
So there's your answer, and there's your documentation.
That's the thing, it's an internalized thing at this point. Also I'd be ok with lack of toenail polish if my toenails were in decent shape (seriously, one is all bruised and about to fall off right now). I have zero problem with other women not shaving, not having pedicures to the point of not even really noticing, but I feel like I can't handle not doing those things.
I have successfully bitten all my finger nails down to about the same length, though!
posted by lazuli at 10:32 AM on June 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
That's the thing, it's an internalized thing at this point. Also I'd be ok with lack of toenail polish if my toenails were in decent shape (seriously, one is all bruised and about to fall off right now). I have zero problem with other women not shaving, not having pedicures to the point of not even really noticing, but I feel like I can't handle not doing those things.
I have successfully bitten all my finger nails down to about the same length, though!
posted by lazuli at 10:32 AM on June 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
Let's all just issue company jumpsuits and call it a day.
I genuinely consider it one of the better perks of my job in a biology lab that I spend most of my time wearing a knee-length labcoat so noone can see/care about what I'm wearing. It means I can never wear shorts (mostly as a safety regulation, but also because shorts hidden under a labcoat makes you look like a flasher), but that's a price worth paying.
I forget the exact wording, but our company's dress code is something like "business casual if you're representing the company to outsiders", plus some requirements about having your shins and feet covered if you're working in the lab. Routine outfits range from "graphic t-shirt, jeans, neon trainers" to "well-heeled Parisian", all without comment.
(My backup career plan is "henchperson", mostly for the same reason.)
posted by metaBugs at 10:35 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
I genuinely consider it one of the better perks of my job in a biology lab that I spend most of my time wearing a knee-length labcoat so noone can see/care about what I'm wearing. It means I can never wear shorts (mostly as a safety regulation, but also because shorts hidden under a labcoat makes you look like a flasher), but that's a price worth paying.
I forget the exact wording, but our company's dress code is something like "business casual if you're representing the company to outsiders", plus some requirements about having your shins and feet covered if you're working in the lab. Routine outfits range from "graphic t-shirt, jeans, neon trainers" to "well-heeled Parisian", all without comment.
(My backup career plan is "henchperson", mostly for the same reason.)
posted by metaBugs at 10:35 AM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Have you ever stopped to think about the state of your pedicure before you wore sandals?
-That’s what the socks are for.
Some readers may not know that socks with sandals in some places is a fashion violation, according to Wikipedia.
posted by Brian B. at 10:37 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
-That’s what the socks are for.
Some readers may not know that socks with sandals in some places is a fashion violation, according to Wikipedia.
posted by Brian B. at 10:37 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
“Dress appropriately” is all well and good for the higher-ups, but GM is a manufacturing concern, and I don’t think “Dress appropriately” will hold up in court as due dilligence when a worker gets pulled into a machine and killed because of an open shirt.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:39 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Sys Rq at 10:39 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Sys Rq: Fortunately, OSHA regulations have a fair amount to say about what kind of clothes are appropriate for people who do various types of manual labor. The regulations are not always followed of course, but they do exist.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:43 AM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:43 AM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
Some readers may not know that socks with sandals in some places is a fashion violation, according to Wikipedia.
Yeah, it was meant tongue-in-cheek because of the uproar it often garners.
But I should note: ever since I turned 40 and stopped giving a rip about “fashion”, I’ve been able to thoroughly embrace the awesome combination of ultimate breathability and unrestricted toe movement, while keeping the chill off of your ankles, that is the socks-and-sandals lifestyle.
Blue jeans, blue-gray socks, and brown Birkenstock-like sandals are my go-to casual footwear as long as the weather is mild. I’d wear them more often, except I am often in the lab at work and open-toed shoes are a no-no there.
posted by darkstar at 10:50 AM on June 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
Yeah, it was meant tongue-in-cheek because of the uproar it often garners.
But I should note: ever since I turned 40 and stopped giving a rip about “fashion”, I’ve been able to thoroughly embrace the awesome combination of ultimate breathability and unrestricted toe movement, while keeping the chill off of your ankles, that is the socks-and-sandals lifestyle.
Blue jeans, blue-gray socks, and brown Birkenstock-like sandals are my go-to casual footwear as long as the weather is mild. I’d wear them more often, except I am often in the lab at work and open-toed shoes are a no-no there.
posted by darkstar at 10:50 AM on June 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
For a while I worked in an office where the dress code was "casual" unless we were meeting certain kinds of clients or in court (because we were, uh, Hip or something). I loved that aspect of it, but...I can tell you that there are a real minority of people who can't distinguish between ordinary casual clothing and clubwear. To the point that it made me uncomfortable, because it almost seemed like a mean joke on those people, who were uniformly in lower-status positions. (This was not a question of affordability. Well-fitting or "nice-looking" clothing is unquestionably a function of money, but anyone can buy a crew-neck rather than a deep deep v-neck top. During my own K-mart-clad adolescence, I was often frumpy as hell, but never school-inappropriate degrees of sexy.) Maybe those people didn't care, but I got the distinct impression some dudes enjoyed getting an eyeful at work. An office where the (predominantly male) white collar employees range from business professional down to casual and the (predominantly female) pink collar employees range from business casual (as they never met clients or went to court) down to clubwear has a strange dynamic.
posted by praemunire at 10:55 AM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:55 AM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yeah it's effing criminal that the most comfortable possible footwear combination is also arbitrarily the most embarrassing. I suspect some kind of conspiracy.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:59 AM on June 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:59 AM on June 16, 2018 [8 favorites]
Just make sure you don’t ever have to urgently poop :-)
That's what the little trap door at the back is for! Make sure whoever does procurement at your company gets the jumpsuits with the little trap door.
Yes! Once we have strong unions we will all wear union suits!
posted by Daily Alice at 11:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
That's what the little trap door at the back is for! Make sure whoever does procurement at your company gets the jumpsuits with the little trap door.
Yes! Once we have strong unions we will all wear union suits!
posted by Daily Alice at 11:06 AM on June 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
“Dress appropriately” is all well and good for the higher-ups, but GM is a manufacturing concern, and I don’t think “Dress appropriately” will hold up in court as due dilligence when a worker gets pulled into a machine and killed because of an open shirt.
Dress appropriately is not just about look - it's also about function. For example - I work in a hybrid environment where, in my office, I wear normal shoes but when I head out to the field, I put on a pair of steel-toed boots. In all environments involving risks like these, health and safety regulations and floor rules trump the dress code no matter what it says.
posted by notorious medium at 11:11 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Dress appropriately is not just about look - it's also about function. For example - I work in a hybrid environment where, in my office, I wear normal shoes but when I head out to the field, I put on a pair of steel-toed boots. In all environments involving risks like these, health and safety regulations and floor rules trump the dress code no matter what it says.
posted by notorious medium at 11:11 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yeah, the previous situation wasn't good, but I don't see how a vague, abusable policy is actually better. Who's to say a shitty boss can't point at me and say "nope, those trousers are inappropriate, get thee into skirt and heels and makeup"? It reminds me of those communities with "rules" that just say "don't be a dick". Invariably "being a dick" gets defined as "asking other people maybe not to make rape jokes".
posted by inconstant at 11:12 AM on June 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 11:12 AM on June 16, 2018 [17 favorites]
I feel better about this than many pages of regulation that are mostly about women's clothes and how most of them are somehow Wrong... probably. But I came out of a conservative industry and working mostly in the midwest, and I worked for a lot of small companies that didn't have any kind of written-down dress code at all, which on a number of occasions really meant "we aren't going to dictate what specific skirt/dress suit you need to be wearing, but female professional staff are not supposed to be wearing pants to work, and god help you if you think you can get away without hose". They, too, could have written the policy as "dress appropriately", because they would have been completely unable to picture a world in which a woman at a CPA firm could wear pants without it being detrimental. The big question with a non-policy is who's interpreting it and what their cultural baggage is.
Like that thing about those people keeping dress pants in their lockers still accepts without question that "dress pants" are more appropriate garb for certain business situations than other kinds of pants, which still leaves open the question of whether women in those situations can also wear pants at all, so we're right back to "guess what you think the people you're working with will think about what you're wearing".
posted by Sequence at 11:22 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Like that thing about those people keeping dress pants in their lockers still accepts without question that "dress pants" are more appropriate garb for certain business situations than other kinds of pants, which still leaves open the question of whether women in those situations can also wear pants at all, so we're right back to "guess what you think the people you're working with will think about what you're wearing".
posted by Sequence at 11:22 AM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
> sukeban:
"At my office we've have had a corporate "dress appropriately" code for a few years, so mid management wear shirt and pants, upper level management and salespeople wear ties, and most of us IT types wear t-shirts and jeans. Dressing up just means not wearing a Doctor Who tee.
Then again, telecommuting means most of the time I'm working in my pajamas."
I remember at a place I used to work, I had to have a sit down with the Site Director. I wanted to explain that expecting me to wear slacks and shirt and tie made no sense when I spent a fair bit of time under desks (IT dude). He agreed and we agreed that jeans with no holes or weird designs and an open-collared dress shirt or polo was fine.
posted by Samizdata at 11:23 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
"At my office we've have had a corporate "dress appropriately" code for a few years, so mid management wear shirt and pants, upper level management and salespeople wear ties, and most of us IT types wear t-shirts and jeans. Dressing up just means not wearing a Doctor Who tee.
Then again, telecommuting means most of the time I'm working in my pajamas."
I remember at a place I used to work, I had to have a sit down with the Site Director. I wanted to explain that expecting me to wear slacks and shirt and tie made no sense when I spent a fair bit of time under desks (IT dude). He agreed and we agreed that jeans with no holes or weird designs and an open-collared dress shirt or polo was fine.
posted by Samizdata at 11:23 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh, in the 90’s I had a call center job, where customers NEVER saw us, because we were a freaking catalog, and they STILL had a “no jeans” rule. I lived 1 minute away. I used to wake up at 5:45 for a 6:00 am shift, throw a blazer on over my pajamas and go to work that way. No one said a thing.
At my current job, which supposedly has a dress code no one has seen but everyone says exists, I usually go jeans every day. It’s been warm lately so for the first time, I wore a fancy sleeveless top, and worried if it would be “inappropriate.” Turns out it was... I was freezing all day. I won’t be doing that again.
posted by greermahoney at 11:35 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
At my current job, which supposedly has a dress code no one has seen but everyone says exists, I usually go jeans every day. It’s been warm lately so for the first time, I wore a fancy sleeveless top, and worried if it would be “inappropriate.” Turns out it was... I was freezing all day. I won’t be doing that again.
posted by greermahoney at 11:35 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, I’ve never had a pedicure in my life. I’ve somehow left my house in sandals thousands of times. The world has not (yet) ended.
posted by greermahoney at 11:38 AM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by greermahoney at 11:38 AM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yeah it's effing criminal that the most comfortable possible footwear combination is also arbitrarily the most embarrassing. I suspect some kind of conspiracy.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:59 AM on June 16
[4 favorites +] [!]
My feet are gross, always have been, so any shame regarding them has burned away very early. But I recognize professionally I can no longer rock flamboyantly colored toe socks and sandals like I did in highschool. I truly did not appreciate how good I had it.
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:45 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:59 AM on June 16
[4 favorites +] [!]
My feet are gross, always have been, so any shame regarding them has burned away very early. But I recognize professionally I can no longer rock flamboyantly colored toe socks and sandals like I did in highschool. I truly did not appreciate how good I had it.
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:45 AM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
I rocked Birkenstock sandals with rainbow toe socks all through high school 🌈
posted by Secret Sparrow at 11:57 AM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Secret Sparrow at 11:57 AM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
We work at cubicals all day and sometimes give training workshops (where I'm inevitably better dressed than the people attending because I train university faculty and TAs who most definitely do not have a dress code).
I am faculty at a public college. Our president recently sent out an email full of "Summer Dress Code" rules that are supposed to apply to all faculty and staff. Apparently, we are allowed to wear jeans in the summer if accompanied by appropriate "Spirit Wear" (which can of course be purchased from our Barnes and Noble school bookstore). We are not allowed to wear shorts.
The faculty...has been having a good laugh at the President's belief that he gets to tell us what to wear. My colleagues who are teaching Ecology and Field Methods this summer are alternating between waders and shorts and flipflops (i.e., dressing appropriately for their jobs), as usual.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:10 PM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
I am faculty at a public college. Our president recently sent out an email full of "Summer Dress Code" rules that are supposed to apply to all faculty and staff. Apparently, we are allowed to wear jeans in the summer if accompanied by appropriate "Spirit Wear" (which can of course be purchased from our Barnes and Noble school bookstore). We are not allowed to wear shorts.
The faculty...has been having a good laugh at the President's belief that he gets to tell us what to wear. My colleagues who are teaching Ecology and Field Methods this summer are alternating between waders and shorts and flipflops (i.e., dressing appropriately for their jobs), as usual.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:10 PM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
A lot of folks here are saying "just look around you and wear what other people are wearing." That may work for a lot of folks, but it doesn't really work for me and I don't think I'm all alone there.
Clothing and fashion is just something I've never understood, I seem to get it wrong even when I try, and I resent having to try because What's OK and What's Not in the world of fashion is just so goddamn arbitrary and capricious. Plus, what people generally think of as "office appropriate" clothing is never anything that I would actually want to wear which makes the already-dreaded process of going to a store to look at, try on, and spend a whole bunch of money on clothing even more fraught. And then whatever I end up with usually looks wrong on me, or I feel wrong in it, because whatever that thing people have in their brains that helps them understand what clothes to buy and what to avoid just doesn't seem to exist for me.
I have a limited and hard-won repertoire of clothes that I'm OK wearing, none of which include khakis, dress slacks, button-down shirts, or polos. I tend to just buy the same things over and over again because otherwise I just completely lose my ability to deal. And I'm a man! This is supposed to be easy for me! I can't imagine how women who feel the way I do about clothes manage to get dressed in the morning.
Anyway, I'm just really bad, like maybe pathologically bad at picking up on those kinds of cues. A dress code that was only "dress appropriately" would leave me totally lost. If you're going to hold my dress up to some kind of standard, please at least give me clear rules for what I am and am not supposed to be wearing because I am just not going to be able to figure it out on my own without a huge amount of awkwardness and angst. If you're going to tell me what to wear, just fucking tell me what to wear. Don't try to be all cute about it and tell me without telling me, it just makes me feel like you're fucking with me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:14 PM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Clothing and fashion is just something I've never understood, I seem to get it wrong even when I try, and I resent having to try because What's OK and What's Not in the world of fashion is just so goddamn arbitrary and capricious. Plus, what people generally think of as "office appropriate" clothing is never anything that I would actually want to wear which makes the already-dreaded process of going to a store to look at, try on, and spend a whole bunch of money on clothing even more fraught. And then whatever I end up with usually looks wrong on me, or I feel wrong in it, because whatever that thing people have in their brains that helps them understand what clothes to buy and what to avoid just doesn't seem to exist for me.
I have a limited and hard-won repertoire of clothes that I'm OK wearing, none of which include khakis, dress slacks, button-down shirts, or polos. I tend to just buy the same things over and over again because otherwise I just completely lose my ability to deal. And I'm a man! This is supposed to be easy for me! I can't imagine how women who feel the way I do about clothes manage to get dressed in the morning.
Anyway, I'm just really bad, like maybe pathologically bad at picking up on those kinds of cues. A dress code that was only "dress appropriately" would leave me totally lost. If you're going to hold my dress up to some kind of standard, please at least give me clear rules for what I am and am not supposed to be wearing because I am just not going to be able to figure it out on my own without a huge amount of awkwardness and angst. If you're going to tell me what to wear, just fucking tell me what to wear. Don't try to be all cute about it and tell me without telling me, it just makes me feel like you're fucking with me.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:14 PM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Oh man hydropsyche, good luck trying to tell a bunch of research professors what they're supposed to wear. With half of them, you're lucky that they consistently remember to put pants on in the morning. Seems to me that one of the main benefits of working in academia vs. the private sector is that you can pretty much wear whatever the hell you want.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:16 PM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:16 PM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
I’d like to second the observation upthread that they don’t actually sell normal looking office appropriate clothes in the US for women between 22 and 50. Want a shirt that’s not see-through? Haha what??
posted by bleep at 12:27 PM on June 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by bleep at 12:27 PM on June 16, 2018 [15 favorites]
Seems to me that one of the main benefits of working in academia vs. the private sector is that you can pretty much wear whatever the hell you want.
Just a note that of course this doesn't fully apply to women in the academy. All I have to do to receive zero comments about my appearance in course evaluations* is
(1) Be male
(2) Pants aren't jeans
(3) Shoes aren't sneakers
(4) Shirt isn't t
What women would have to do to just get the li'l fuckers to not be overtly sexist at them doesn't exist.
*well, the last time I glanced at them, which was several years ago because (a) totally worthless and (b) tenure.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:03 PM on June 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
Just a note that of course this doesn't fully apply to women in the academy. All I have to do to receive zero comments about my appearance in course evaluations* is
(1) Be male
(2) Pants aren't jeans
(3) Shoes aren't sneakers
(4) Shirt isn't t
What women would have to do to just get the li'l fuckers to not be overtly sexist at them doesn't exist.
*well, the last time I glanced at them, which was several years ago because (a) totally worthless and (b) tenure.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:03 PM on June 16, 2018 [13 favorites]
Two words...
"Assless chaps."
What do I win?
posted by delfin at 1:21 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
"Assless chaps."
What do I win?
posted by delfin at 1:21 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Chapped ass. You've got to moisturize.
posted by arcticseal at 1:23 PM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by arcticseal at 1:23 PM on June 16, 2018 [11 favorites]
I supervise student teachers, and the other folks who do my job complain about (female, of course, because they don't notice that the male students dress badly too) students wearing leggings, cropped shirts, mini skirts, etc. while they're teaching elementary school students. I don't have any problems, because at the orientation meeting I stand up, do a little model walk complete with slouch and arms akimbo, and say, "Dress like an old person." They all laugh, they get it, and they dress just fine.
posted by Peach at 1:30 PM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Peach at 1:30 PM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Speaking of which, we faculty at my old place of employment (private K-12 school) had to wear academic robes at commencement. I wore my doctoral robes and heels, and underneath jeans shorts and a tank top.
posted by Peach at 1:33 PM on June 16, 2018
posted by Peach at 1:33 PM on June 16, 2018
Also a woman approaching middle-aged, and my solution is "wear ill-fitting men's polos". Some bright day when I have decent income I will find a better-fitting outfit that works for me and my workplace, and then buy two weeks' worth, and if anyone says boo I'll say "Obama does it too" with an unspoken "so fuck you, buddy".
posted by Anonymous at 1:35 PM on June 16, 2018
posted by Anonymous at 1:35 PM on June 16, 2018
Seems to me that one of the main benefits of working in academia vs. the private sector is that you can pretty much wear whatever the hell you want.
This can really vary quite a bit. As GCU Sweet and Full of Grace noted, there can be student evaluations to deal with. And I've worked in an academic research setting where we couldn't wear jeans on weekdays. This wasn't really brought up and enforced until a few days after a woman wore mildly distressed jeans. Which would have been less grating except a males post-doc had routinely been wearing torn up (gaping holes) routinely for months at this point.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:48 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
This can really vary quite a bit. As GCU Sweet and Full of Grace noted, there can be student evaluations to deal with. And I've worked in an academic research setting where we couldn't wear jeans on weekdays. This wasn't really brought up and enforced until a few days after a woman wore mildly distressed jeans. Which would have been less grating except a males post-doc had routinely been wearing torn up (gaping holes) routinely for months at this point.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:48 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
We’ll see where their dress code/PR stunt is in 5 years.
The change was made in 2009 and now she's CEO of GM and telling the story as part of her public persona so I'm guessing it worked out OK and didn't result in a clusterfuck of lawsuits.
posted by chavenet at 1:57 PM on June 16, 2018 [38 favorites]
The change was made in 2009 and now she's CEO of GM and telling the story as part of her public persona so I'm guessing it worked out OK and didn't result in a clusterfuck of lawsuits.
posted by chavenet at 1:57 PM on June 16, 2018 [38 favorites]
Our (Big Pharma) office is "business casual" which means, effectively: no jeans, a collar on the guys, and whatever for shoes in the offices (in the plant or the mechanic's shop, steel toes).
Fridays we can wear jeans.
Except, for a long time my schedule (due to 24-7 production) was Su-Th. So I would wear jeans on Thursdays. Someone bitched, and the site leader asked me what was up. I said, "Thursday is my Friday. Want to change schedules?"
No further complaints.
posted by notsnot at 2:01 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Fridays we can wear jeans.
Except, for a long time my schedule (due to 24-7 production) was Su-Th. So I would wear jeans on Thursdays. Someone bitched, and the site leader asked me what was up. I said, "Thursday is my Friday. Want to change schedules?"
No further complaints.
posted by notsnot at 2:01 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, we need to keep in mind that GM is a really damn progressive company. I know it has this Detroit automaker blue collar image but I’ve long wanted to work for them and the more I read and see the more I’m impressed with GM.
Obama nationalizing them is IMO one of the great success stories of government intervention making a company better.
posted by nikaspark at 2:04 PM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Obama nationalizing them is IMO one of the great success stories of government intervention making a company better.
posted by nikaspark at 2:04 PM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Two words...
"Assless chaps."
What do I win?
The City Slicker Redundancy Award to Award City Slicker Redundancy.
All chaps are by definition “assless.”
posted by Sys Rq at 2:37 PM on June 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
"Assless chaps."
What do I win?
The City Slicker Redundancy Award to Award City Slicker Redundancy.
All chaps are by definition “assless.”
posted by Sys Rq at 2:37 PM on June 16, 2018 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I don’t think so.
It’s nice to have a reset every once in a while, but do people really think that complex codes of dress/conduct/laws just spring up from nothing?
First time someone gets fired for not dressing "appropriately" it’ll wind up in court, and for good reason as "appropriate" is a measure that can be abused nine ways from Sunday.
We’ll see where their dress code/PR stunt is in 5 years.
"Dress appropriately" is nevertheless language used to enable implicit forms of violence which is why such an approach is problematic (problematic = has both good/appealing but also bad/harmful aspects).
The contrast with academia can be instructive. Because here you have someone explicitly telling GM's employees to do a thing that academic culture internalizes. It's not that academia practices a culture of sartorial emancipation, it's that they're good at making this stuff, social "norms", implicit. In the end, you get a self-selected politics in both cultures. That concludes my power analysis.
posted by polymodus at 2:42 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
It’s nice to have a reset every once in a while, but do people really think that complex codes of dress/conduct/laws just spring up from nothing?
First time someone gets fired for not dressing "appropriately" it’ll wind up in court, and for good reason as "appropriate" is a measure that can be abused nine ways from Sunday.
We’ll see where their dress code/PR stunt is in 5 years.
"Dress appropriately" is nevertheless language used to enable implicit forms of violence which is why such an approach is problematic (problematic = has both good/appealing but also bad/harmful aspects).
The contrast with academia can be instructive. Because here you have someone explicitly telling GM's employees to do a thing that academic culture internalizes. It's not that academia practices a culture of sartorial emancipation, it's that they're good at making this stuff, social "norms", implicit. In the end, you get a self-selected politics in both cultures. That concludes my power analysis.
posted by polymodus at 2:42 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm a chap, and I assure you my ass is substantial.
posted by flabdablet at 2:43 PM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 2:43 PM on June 16, 2018 [7 favorites]
Hair-removal expectations tend to be sexist, but the same is not necessarily true for pedicure expectations. In my experience (mostly in academia), men are more likely than women to desperately need home pedicure-type attention before they wear sandals to work. Just, you know, to clean under their nails, file off any particularly gross-looking calluses, and get any visible toenail fungus treated. But toenail polish shouldn't be required for anyone.
posted by chromium at 2:58 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by chromium at 2:58 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I remember wondering what to wear to the college programming internship I'd gotten hired for. I called the listed manager and asked him and he said "uh...nice casual?" So I turned up in some nice pants and a collared shirt with pale blue stripes, and of course everyone there was in shorts and a t-shirt. So that experience led me to the belief that your dress code should be measured as "can someone be given only this information and show up at work without looking out of place?"
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:00 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:00 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
So I was a mainframe computer programmer. Downtown Houston -- Pennzoil, an internship, then a gig @ First Interstate Bank, in the check processing department.* ** This was late 80s, early 90s. A suit, and tie of course, and high quality shoes. You "could" wear a jacket but really, wear a flippin' suit. A nice one. You could remove your coat in your cubicle. But that was it. Totally ludicrous. I'd bet banks in downtown Houston still play this game. Then I got a job for a state regulatory agency, here in Austin -- exact same thing, suit, tie, nice shoes. A bit easier on being able to wear a jacket and nice slacks. Tie, of course, and nice shoes. (By nice shoes I guess I mean "Shoes that you can polish, and you'd better polish them.) Along about 96 the gig in Austin went casual; you still couldn't slum, IE no shorts or what-have-you, but the ridiculous suit/tie thing was gone. I still wore a tie sometimes, god knows I had a trillion of them, and it's not as bad if you don't have to wear it.
*Did you know that checks run through those MICR readers at upwards of 35 mph? It's really something to see.
**Also, check processing contained all of the "Float" systems, miles and miles of code, a huge profit center of any bank -- anyone remember depositing a check but not being able to access the funds for XX amount of days? That's float. Unreal, arcane rules/regs to determine how long the bank could float a check -- if it was from a bank in Europe, you couldn't access that money for a week. At least. Meanwhile, First Interstate is making bank off it, all that interest.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:19 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
*Did you know that checks run through those MICR readers at upwards of 35 mph? It's really something to see.
**Also, check processing contained all of the "Float" systems, miles and miles of code, a huge profit center of any bank -- anyone remember depositing a check but not being able to access the funds for XX amount of days? That's float. Unreal, arcane rules/regs to determine how long the bank could float a check -- if it was from a bank in Europe, you couldn't access that money for a week. At least. Meanwhile, First Interstate is making bank off it, all that interest.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:19 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've started wearing untucked short sleeve button downs to work. If the AC is going buckwild, I have a few sweaters on hand. Over time, I've been adding patterned shirts, then shirts with designs on them to the mix.
At this point, my rotation patterns include:
A Squirtle shirt, a Bulbasaur shirt, a Cthulhu shirt, two Ancient Aliens shirts, and a Cryptid shirt.
So that's my week sorted.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:55 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
At this point, my rotation patterns include:
A Squirtle shirt, a Bulbasaur shirt, a Cthulhu shirt, two Ancient Aliens shirts, and a Cryptid shirt.
So that's my week sorted.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:55 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am faculty at a public college. Our president recently sent out an email full of "Summer Dress Code" rules that are supposed to apply to all faculty and staff.
What on EARTH. Has the president... met faculty?
posted by pemberkins at 4:08 PM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
What on EARTH. Has the president... met faculty?
posted by pemberkins at 4:08 PM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
I am one of only three people occupying a rented space in a WeWork. No one gives a shit what we wear, so usually we each go with:
* Bookkeeper/Controller wears slacks and a top, and often an extra sweater because she is perpetually cold.
* Project manager wears jeans and some kind of shirt, and one of the three hats he owns (Philadelhia Eagles ball cap, plain blue ball cap, or bright orange knit watch cap).
* Me: jeans and a shirt. Maybe with one of my gabillion big scarves.
When our boss comes in (an increasing rarity, as he is often either traveling or working from home) he usually wears jeans and a polo shirt. When we had an investor coming to meet with him he added a blazer, but that was it.
We also have been all increasingly likely to work from home; the last time I did that, it was a hot day and my roommate was out of town so I lived the dream and wore absolutley nothing at all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:12 PM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
* Bookkeeper/Controller wears slacks and a top, and often an extra sweater because she is perpetually cold.
* Project manager wears jeans and some kind of shirt, and one of the three hats he owns (Philadelhia Eagles ball cap, plain blue ball cap, or bright orange knit watch cap).
* Me: jeans and a shirt. Maybe with one of my gabillion big scarves.
When our boss comes in (an increasing rarity, as he is often either traveling or working from home) he usually wears jeans and a polo shirt. When we had an investor coming to meet with him he added a blazer, but that was it.
We also have been all increasingly likely to work from home; the last time I did that, it was a hot day and my roommate was out of town so I lived the dream and wore absolutley nothing at all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:12 PM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, I wear skirts and dresses without pantyhose because they are the devil's sheer membrane, and I don't shave my legs. My attitude is basically "I wish a motherfucker would".
I stopped shaving my legs a few years ago, and I too wear skirts and dresses without pantyhose all summer long. I don't actually know what I'd say if a "motherfucker did" but luckily no one has.
I have recently noticed the occasional quick glance at my legs when I'm in a dress but I'm never sure whether they are admiring the shapeliness, hairiness, blinding-whiteness or my ankle tattoo.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:06 PM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
I stopped shaving my legs a few years ago, and I too wear skirts and dresses without pantyhose all summer long. I don't actually know what I'd say if a "motherfucker did" but luckily no one has.
I have recently noticed the occasional quick glance at my legs when I'm in a dress but I'm never sure whether they are admiring the shapeliness, hairiness, blinding-whiteness or my ankle tattoo.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:06 PM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have never had a professional pedicure due to face-kicking levels of foot ticklishness, and I wear sandals a lot in the summer. I just pumice off or lotion away any major foot crust at home, keep the nails nicely clipped and hit them with a coat of Insta-Dry nail polish every now and again. Probably doesn't look quite as nice as the pampered-princess version but who the hell is looking that closely anyway?
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:11 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:11 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah it's effing criminal that the most comfortable possible footwear combination is also arbitrarily the most embarrassing. I suspect some kind of conspiracy.
There is a apparently a saying “Beauty is pain”, which I think is supposed to mean you have to sacrifice to be “beautiful” but I guess I always took to mean “Pain? Fuck beauty then”
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:15 PM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
There is a apparently a saying “Beauty is pain”, which I think is supposed to mean you have to sacrifice to be “beautiful” but I guess I always took to mean “Pain? Fuck beauty then”
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:15 PM on June 16, 2018 [6 favorites]
Want a shirt that’s not see-through? Haha what??
Brought to you by the Tank Top Industry.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:28 PM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Brought to you by the Tank Top Industry.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:28 PM on June 16, 2018 [9 favorites]
Uniforms don't level the playing field, because people's bodies are different.
This. Uniformity of clothing emphasizes differences in bodies, especially when the available sizes and style just don't account for taller, shorter, or fatter people.
In my normally non-uniform-wearing existence the only times when I've had to wear uniforms have been extremely unpleasant, making me look and feel worse and less confident.
posted by Foosnark at 5:41 PM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
This. Uniformity of clothing emphasizes differences in bodies, especially when the available sizes and style just don't account for taller, shorter, or fatter people.
In my normally non-uniform-wearing existence the only times when I've had to wear uniforms have been extremely unpleasant, making me look and feel worse and less confident.
posted by Foosnark at 5:41 PM on June 16, 2018 [5 favorites]
Hmm. Maybe it's just me, but I've always felt that one of the nice things about a uniform is that it means nobody cares what you look like, just so long as you're part of the group. The uniform identifies you as belonging, and also makes your individual characteristics relatively less important than your role. Also, you don't have to pay for them. Also I appreciate their honesty—on work time, you kind of belong to the organization to a fairly large extent and uniforms are honest about that.
Opinions differ, I guess.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:04 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Opinions differ, I guess.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:04 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
I work for a major player in the global logistics industry. In many ways our dress code is stuck in the 80s, when the company was formed. Suits aren’t required for the guys, but ties and nice shoes are; skirts, dresses and heels aren’t required for the women, but a lot of women wear them to fit in overall. Because women can wear slacks, and aren’t required to wear neckwear, we have one female developer who comes dressed every day in what ever guy in the place would like to wear... slacks and an open-neck long sleeved shirt.
The thing is, our IT department is such a key player in the company’s operation we often say we’re not sure whether we’re a logistics company or a tech company. And our dress code definitely puts us at disadvantage when recruiting recent compsci grads compared to Amazon and Microsoft.
Since the company founder retired a few years ago, we’re starting to see some liberalization of policies, and I’ve heard several supervisors say they think some relaxing of the dress code is the next change to come down the pike. We never see customers, and I’ve worked in law firms with more relaxed dress codes than where I am now.
None of this is complaining. My employer is one of the best I’ve ever worked for, and I work with great people. But I’d love to switch out my shirt and tie for a polo shirt.
posted by lhauser at 6:29 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
The thing is, our IT department is such a key player in the company’s operation we often say we’re not sure whether we’re a logistics company or a tech company. And our dress code definitely puts us at disadvantage when recruiting recent compsci grads compared to Amazon and Microsoft.
Since the company founder retired a few years ago, we’re starting to see some liberalization of policies, and I’ve heard several supervisors say they think some relaxing of the dress code is the next change to come down the pike. We never see customers, and I’ve worked in law firms with more relaxed dress codes than where I am now.
None of this is complaining. My employer is one of the best I’ve ever worked for, and I work with great people. But I’d love to switch out my shirt and tie for a polo shirt.
posted by lhauser at 6:29 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm fortunate that pretty much every job I've had in the last 20 years has never expected more of me than a black t-shirt, jeans and Docs.
I'm especially fortunate* now that I work on a team with all guys because they would never notice anything I wore. I told them this and they all concurred. So, while no one compliments me on my new shoes, no one ever gives me the stink eye because I might be wearing the same black shirt I wore yesterday or because I've worn these boots for three days in a row.
*Obviously there are downsides to working with all dudes that I don't need to explain to at least half of you but it is what it is.
posted by bendy at 7:14 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm especially fortunate* now that I work on a team with all guys because they would never notice anything I wore. I told them this and they all concurred. So, while no one compliments me on my new shoes, no one ever gives me the stink eye because I might be wearing the same black shirt I wore yesterday or because I've worn these boots for three days in a row.
*Obviously there are downsides to working with all dudes that I don't need to explain to at least half of you but it is what it is.
posted by bendy at 7:14 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I have only ever worked at two places that had a formal dress code (mostly it is "dress like a grown-up"). When I worked in retail sales, I had to wear a tie every day... including, oddly, days when I wore a button-down shirt and sweater (entirely compliant with the dress code) that would cover my tie up entirely. Apparently, I was informed, prospective customers were all inclined to scrutinize my suprasternal notch and they would feel discomfited and take their business elsewhere if they could not detect the bulge of half-windsor there.
This is slightly off the path of workplace dress codes, my feeling is that every specific item enumerated in a dress code is a redress against some past challenge or an anticipation against some future one. An old bandmate of mine was in Vegas recently and sent me a photo of the posted dress code at the APEX Social Club on the 55th floor of the Palms Casino and Resort. The prohibited items are (all items [sic]):
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:19 PM on June 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
This is slightly off the path of workplace dress codes, my feeling is that every specific item enumerated in a dress code is a redress against some past challenge or an anticipation against some future one. An old bandmate of mine was in Vegas recently and sent me a photo of the posted dress code at the APEX Social Club on the 55th floor of the Palms Casino and Resort. The prohibited items are (all items [sic]):
Ed Hardy, Man Buns, Blue Blazers With Gold Buttons, Shirts Or Jackets With Elbow Pads , Fake Gucci Belts, Fake Louis Vuitton Belts, Fake Handbags, Fake Rolex, Jean Shorts, Tank Tops, Flip Flops, Bandanas, Loafers With No Socks, White Loafers With White Belts, Baggie Jeans, Sagging Jeans, Bell Bottomed Jeans, Jean Jackets, Long T-Shirts, Sunglasses, Blue Blockers, Ball Caps, Selfie Sticks, Selfie Phone Cases, Crocs (With Or Without Socks), "Grills" Or Mouth Bling, Jeggings, Joggers, Man Capris, Linen Pants, Ribbed Shorts, Work Boots, Flannel, Deep V Necks, Bling, Cargo Pants, Overalls, Jordans, Fake Jordans, Uggs, Sleeveless Shirts, Bath Robes, Fanny Packs, Gym Shorts, Beanies In Summertime, Z Cavariccis, Long Beards That Require WaxNotwithstanding that any Borges reader probably gets echoes of, "Those that belong to the emperor, Embalmed ones, Those that are trained," etc, this seems a curiously specific list. I gather is is an attempt to exhaustive, but if I am ever in Vegas, I aim to show up in kilt, diving helmet, corset, and snowshoes and demand to see just how I contravene the rules.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:19 PM on June 16, 2018 [19 favorites]
I notice that the GM dress code story is actually a story about top-down company-wide dress codes. There's nothing to prevent managers from creating more specific dress codes for their own groups, and Barra tells approvingly a story of a man who did just that. So really the GM dress code is, "Employees shall dress as their managers direct, explicitly or implicitly."
To me, a dress code that is just "dress appropriately" basically means, "We're not going to tell you the rules, but we'll sure tell you when you break them. Also, the rules will be inconsistent, capricious, and probably discriminatory and there will be nothing you can do about it."
+1 The great thing about written policy is that you have to declare up front how terrible you plan to be, and people mostly get to hold you to it (modulo other considerations of power, BATNA, etc.).
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:30 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
To me, a dress code that is just "dress appropriately" basically means, "We're not going to tell you the rules, but we'll sure tell you when you break them. Also, the rules will be inconsistent, capricious, and probably discriminatory and there will be nothing you can do about it."
+1 The great thing about written policy is that you have to declare up front how terrible you plan to be, and people mostly get to hold you to it (modulo other considerations of power, BATNA, etc.).
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 7:30 PM on June 16, 2018 [3 favorites]
The dress code that always infuriates me is the one seemingly enforced at many news desks and talk shows: the men are wearing suits and dress shoes while the women are wearing sleeveless short dresses and stilettos. The men are comfortable in the overly air-conditioned studio environment, the women are freezing. The men could run away in the event of a fire/ambush/earthquake while the women would be teetering along, one false step away from breaking an ankle.
It's barbaric.
posted by carmicha at 7:36 PM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
It's barbaric.
posted by carmicha at 7:36 PM on June 16, 2018 [14 favorites]
To be honest, I would prefer wearing a uniform to work. Having to decide what to wear each day (let alone finding and maintaining my wardrobe) and making sure that I don't repeat the same outfit too soon is a real tax on my time and mental energy. I can understand why Steve Jobs went with the black top and pants so frequently.
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:40 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by longdaysjourney at 7:40 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah I would love to have a uniform for work just because if it didn't look flattering on me it wouldn't be my fault.
posted by bleep at 7:44 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 7:44 PM on June 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
I can understand why Steve Jobs went with the black top and pants so frequently.
yeah, I've given up. I went to Uniqlo and found a black button-down shirt I like, bought five. I wear that every day, combined with a black skirt and a black jacket and black tights. This accomplishes all goals: it fits my company's dress code, it's not utterly hideous on me, I don't have to think about it at all, it's low-maintenance, it's not expensive, it covers all my tattoos.
The first couple of weeks I was doing this, a couple people ribbed me gently about it. I told them honestly the reason why, and they kind of went "oh, that actually makes sense" and have left me alone about it ever since. I'm sure I'm considered mildly eccentric for it, but I'm also polite and mostly cheerful and good at my job, so I can kind of get away with that.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 8:18 PM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
yeah, I've given up. I went to Uniqlo and found a black button-down shirt I like, bought five. I wear that every day, combined with a black skirt and a black jacket and black tights. This accomplishes all goals: it fits my company's dress code, it's not utterly hideous on me, I don't have to think about it at all, it's low-maintenance, it's not expensive, it covers all my tattoos.
The first couple of weeks I was doing this, a couple people ribbed me gently about it. I told them honestly the reason why, and they kind of went "oh, that actually makes sense" and have left me alone about it ever since. I'm sure I'm considered mildly eccentric for it, but I'm also polite and mostly cheerful and good at my job, so I can kind of get away with that.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 8:18 PM on June 16, 2018 [10 favorites]
This is slightly off the path of workplace dress codes, my feeling is that every specific item enumerated in a dress code is a redress against some past challenge or an anticipation against some future one. [...] Notwithstanding that any Borges reader probably gets echoes of, "Those that belong to the emperor, Embalmed ones, Those that are trained," etc, this seems a curiously specific list.
The items may be specific, but I guarantee you the people to whom the list gets applied is more specific than “everybody” and less specific than “those five guys who keep coming back.” Google “dress code racism.” It’s not a dress code, it’s a list of things to say instead of “Whites Only.”
posted by Sys Rq at 8:41 PM on June 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
The items may be specific, but I guarantee you the people to whom the list gets applied is more specific than “everybody” and less specific than “those five guys who keep coming back.” Google “dress code racism.” It’s not a dress code, it’s a list of things to say instead of “Whites Only.”
posted by Sys Rq at 8:41 PM on June 16, 2018 [18 favorites]
The dress code that always infuriates me is the one seemingly enforced at many news desks and talk shows: the men are wearing suits and dress shoes while the women are wearing sleeveless short dresses and stilettos.
God, this. It actually seems like the presumably-unwritten-but-nonetheless-rigidly-adhered-to gender expectations have gotten worse, even places that aren't Fox, compared with 15-20 years ago.
I (only semi-jokingly) blame Mad Men.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:02 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
God, this. It actually seems like the presumably-unwritten-but-nonetheless-rigidly-adhered-to gender expectations have gotten worse, even places that aren't Fox, compared with 15-20 years ago.
I (only semi-jokingly) blame Mad Men.
posted by non canadian guy at 9:02 PM on June 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
It’s not a dress code, it’s a list of things to say instead of “Whites Only.”
It is known. As well, it looks like a lot of it would be waived if the customer has sufficient clout. The highly nonspecific “bling” would probably not be an issue if, say, Lady Gaga turned up.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:21 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
It is known. As well, it looks like a lot of it would be waived if the customer has sufficient clout. The highly nonspecific “bling” would probably not be an issue if, say, Lady Gaga turned up.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:21 PM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]
ArbitraryAndCapricious, last October I got really tired of trying to figure out which shirts clashed with my hair -- purple and blue at the time -- and decided I was done, and switched to the semi-Steve Jobs: jeans and sneakers and the top can be anything black or dark grey. It works with my sartorially phoning it in IT colleagues, it works with middle management, and best of all it works with me. I already had most of it in my wardrobe, saved a bunch of decision time in the morning, and I can still buy a new shirt or sweater if I like, so long as it's black, or grey. And for proper Steve Jobsing, I have multiples of the same turtleneck in the rotation. It's really liberating and suits my officially-middle-aged-and-freshly-out-of-fucks state to a T.
As for the article, I hear what people are saying about tyrannical bosses being able to apply the policy inconsistently (or -- consistently in line with various illegal biases impossible to deploy otherwise), but if you look at it from the other direction, it could also be a way to find the bad bosses willing to act in such a manner, and shut them down. And it sounds like this may be a HR chief inclined to do such housecleaning. So I think it's a pretty great policy.
even if I do acknowledge -- like the friend who works at a gym who says, darkly, the reason for the poster on the women's sauna is that everything now explicitly forbidden was actually done before, even though all right-thinking people know saunas are not where you shave your legs -- that the policy will probably creep back up from "this is common sense" to "seriously just don't, ugh, you guys."
posted by sldownard at 3:02 AM on June 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
As for the article, I hear what people are saying about tyrannical bosses being able to apply the policy inconsistently (or -- consistently in line with various illegal biases impossible to deploy otherwise), but if you look at it from the other direction, it could also be a way to find the bad bosses willing to act in such a manner, and shut them down. And it sounds like this may be a HR chief inclined to do such housecleaning. So I think it's a pretty great policy.
even if I do acknowledge -- like the friend who works at a gym who says, darkly, the reason for the poster on the women's sauna is that everything now explicitly forbidden was actually done before, even though all right-thinking people know saunas are not where you shave your legs -- that the policy will probably creep back up from "this is common sense" to "seriously just don't, ugh, you guys."
posted by sldownard at 3:02 AM on June 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’m another one of those that can’t read clues on what’s appropriate clothing and what’s not. I’m kind of impervious to fashion.
Pretty sure that I, in my ineffectual quest as “broke and underemployed while paying student loans” to meet the female code of not wearing the same outfit every day, was personally the reason for the issuing, to all employees, of a new company shirt, and institution of said as uniform.
Yes, readers, I broke the unwritten dress code of a comic book/gaming store. #LifeGoals
posted by Nancy_LockIsLit_Palmer at 3:41 AM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Pretty sure that I, in my ineffectual quest as “broke and underemployed while paying student loans” to meet the female code of not wearing the same outfit every day, was personally the reason for the issuing, to all employees, of a new company shirt, and institution of said as uniform.
Yes, readers, I broke the unwritten dress code of a comic book/gaming store. #LifeGoals
posted by Nancy_LockIsLit_Palmer at 3:41 AM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Ed Hardy, Man Buns, Blue Blazers With Gold Buttons, Shirts Or Jackets With Elbow Pads , Fake Gucci Belts, Fake Louis Vuitton Belts, Fake Handbags, Fake Rolex, Jean Shorts, Tank Tops, Flip Flops, Bandanas, Loafers With No Socks, White Loafers With White Belts, Baggie Jeans, Sagging Jeans, Bell Bottomed Jeans, Jean Jackets, Long T-Shirts, Sunglasses, Blue Blockers, Ball Caps, Selfie Sticks, Selfie Phone Cases, Crocs (With Or Without Socks), "Grills" Or Mouth Bling, Jeggings, Joggers, Man Capris, Linen Pants, Ribbed Shorts, Work Boots, Flannel, Deep V Necks, Bling, Cargo Pants, Overalls, Jordans, Fake Jordans, Uggs, Sleeveless Shirts, Bath Robes, Fanny Packs, Gym Shorts, Beanies In Summertime, Z Cavariccis, Long Beards That Require WaxPeople still wear Z Cavariccis? What is this, 1989?
posted by pxe2000 at 4:18 AM on June 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
What is a fake handbag? Is it like fake fruit, where it looks like a handbag but when you try to use it it's actually just a single piece of injection-molded plastic?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:53 AM on June 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 4:53 AM on June 17, 2018 [15 favorites]
Ed Hardy, Man Buns, Blue Blazers With Gold Buttons, Shirts Or Jackets With Elbow Pads , Fake Gucci Belts, Fake Louis Vuitton Belts, Fake Handbags, Fake Rolex, Jean Shorts, Tank Tops, Flip Flops, Bandanas, Loafers With No Socks, White Loafers With White Belts, Baggie Jeans, Sagging Jeans, Bell Bottomed Jeans, Jean Jackets, Long T-Shirts, Sunglasses, Blue Blockers, Ball Caps, Selfie Sticks, Selfie Phone Cases, Crocs (With Or Without Socks), "Grills" Or Mouth Bling, Jeggings, Joggers, Man Capris, Linen Pants, Ribbed Shorts, Work Boots, Flannel, Deep V Necks, Bling, Cargo Pants, Overalls, Jordans, Fake Jordans, Uggs, Sleeveless Shirts, Bath Robes, Fanny Packs, Gym Shorts, Beanies In Summertime, Z Cavariccis, Long Beards That Require Wax
My brain wanted to read this as some monstrous sort of SEO.
posted by eirias at 5:25 AM on June 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
My brain wanted to read this as some monstrous sort of SEO.
posted by eirias at 5:25 AM on June 17, 2018 [4 favorites]
I went to Uniqlo and found a black button-down shirt I like, bought five
So here I am, on a train to Oxford on a Sunday afternoon, because that's where the only Uniqlo outside of London is in the UK, and everything in my office wardrobe (school clothes, as I call them) is knackered. Please let there be stuff I want in stock and hopefully in the sale.
posted by ambrosen at 6:04 AM on June 17, 2018
So here I am, on a train to Oxford on a Sunday afternoon, because that's where the only Uniqlo outside of London is in the UK, and everything in my office wardrobe (school clothes, as I call them) is knackered. Please let there be stuff I want in stock and hopefully in the sale.
posted by ambrosen at 6:04 AM on June 17, 2018
I heartily endorse the inclusion of "selfie sticks" on that Vegas Blacklist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:07 AM on June 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:07 AM on June 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wear clothes, not too much, mostly plants.
Mostly pants, surely.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:25 AM on June 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Mostly pants, surely.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:25 AM on June 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
The most important thing that Barra did, I think, was to call the first director who complained and simply ask him about his reaction (and was not defensive when she called). That conversation allowed him to understand what she was after, why it might be better, and how he could easily implement this approach, which completely changed his reaction from one of upset resistance to affirmative support.
Many workplaces treat adults like children not because they think everyone is childish, but because that's the fruit of comprehensive, paranoid self-protection, of avoiding all liability in a litigious age, because our workplaces are one of the main places where we have to figure out and try to resolve the ugliness of ourselves (sexism, racism), that we collectively bring there every day. How does an organization a priori protect itself, typically? Lots and lots of detailed rules, policies and procedures that end up infantilizing adults in a way that makes them dumber and less apt to use good sense or judgment when needed, and more likely simply to 'follow the rules.'
I've noticed in my workplace that a profound, routine otherization has taken hold: people are very reluctant simply to talk to each other anymore, especially about any kind of difficult topic. This is happening throughout our culture, it seems, just like we don't answer our phones anymore if an unexpected call comes, or don't answer knocks on our doors at home ever, I notice that people are more and more hesitant simply to speak to one another. At work, we fall back on emails or voicemails or intermediaries or rules or etc., but seem to have forgotten how to just talk a thing out.
Barra's dress code change didn't just cut through excessive corporate bureaucracy and rules-mongering, it implicitly makes people think, use good judgment, and talk to one another in meaningful ways. Those conversations may be only about appropriate dress at first, but they're really building a foundation for regular, face-to-face communication about much more consequential things. That's outstanding management and leadership on her part.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:25 AM on June 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
Many workplaces treat adults like children not because they think everyone is childish, but because that's the fruit of comprehensive, paranoid self-protection, of avoiding all liability in a litigious age, because our workplaces are one of the main places where we have to figure out and try to resolve the ugliness of ourselves (sexism, racism), that we collectively bring there every day. How does an organization a priori protect itself, typically? Lots and lots of detailed rules, policies and procedures that end up infantilizing adults in a way that makes them dumber and less apt to use good sense or judgment when needed, and more likely simply to 'follow the rules.'
I've noticed in my workplace that a profound, routine otherization has taken hold: people are very reluctant simply to talk to each other anymore, especially about any kind of difficult topic. This is happening throughout our culture, it seems, just like we don't answer our phones anymore if an unexpected call comes, or don't answer knocks on our doors at home ever, I notice that people are more and more hesitant simply to speak to one another. At work, we fall back on emails or voicemails or intermediaries or rules or etc., but seem to have forgotten how to just talk a thing out.
Barra's dress code change didn't just cut through excessive corporate bureaucracy and rules-mongering, it implicitly makes people think, use good judgment, and talk to one another in meaningful ways. Those conversations may be only about appropriate dress at first, but they're really building a foundation for regular, face-to-face communication about much more consequential things. That's outstanding management and leadership on her part.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:25 AM on June 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
I would still dispute your analysis, LooseFilter. My feeling is that people's ability to talk to each other at work is chilled not because of a culture of rules-following, but because of the toxic effect that unequal power balances have on people's ability to interact on a human-to-human level. If my boss brings me in to the office to explain to me that my chosen attire does not meet some deliberately nebulous definition of "appropriate," that is not going to be a conversation that I walk away from feeling like an empowered, self-actualizing human being whose good judgment is recognized and valued. It's a conversation where I would feel as though I had been lectured to by someone with power over me because I had failed to somehow read their mind.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:08 AM on June 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 9:08 AM on June 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
"Avoiding liability in a litigious age" is basically the same thing as "not overtly breaking the law in an age where at least a few people have some limited ability to stick up for themselves against their bosses."
We want to live in litigious ages, at least as far as employees suing employers goes. And we want our employers to be pants-shitting terrified of their liability when they harm us. Rules are good. Rules mean that you have something you can point at when, as it often will in American society, "inappropriate" is whatever people who aren't anglo men do.
people are very reluctant simply to talk to each other anymore, especially about any kind of difficult topic
Unless talking to each other about difficult topics is in your job description, you shouldn't have to be doing it at work. Work is work, and you're there to do your jobs in exchange for money. Not to be a fake family. Certainly not to be emotional support for clueless straight cis anglo men like me and our background radiation of racism and misogyny.
In a better world, what would happen is that women and people of color and queer people and disabled people and so on wouldn't have to talk about those difficult topics because they could complain to HR about someone misbehaving or actively harassing and HR would squash them like a bug.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:45 AM on June 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
We want to live in litigious ages, at least as far as employees suing employers goes. And we want our employers to be pants-shitting terrified of their liability when they harm us. Rules are good. Rules mean that you have something you can point at when, as it often will in American society, "inappropriate" is whatever people who aren't anglo men do.
people are very reluctant simply to talk to each other anymore, especially about any kind of difficult topic
Unless talking to each other about difficult topics is in your job description, you shouldn't have to be doing it at work. Work is work, and you're there to do your jobs in exchange for money. Not to be a fake family. Certainly not to be emotional support for clueless straight cis anglo men like me and our background radiation of racism and misogyny.
In a better world, what would happen is that women and people of color and queer people and disabled people and so on wouldn't have to talk about those difficult topics because they could complain to HR about someone misbehaving or actively harassing and HR would squash them like a bug.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:45 AM on June 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
My feeling is that people's ability to talk to each other at work is chilled not because of a culture of rules-following, but because of the toxic effect that unequal power balances have on people's ability to interact on a human-to-human level.
I agree, on re-read my comment made the tacit assumption that I was talking about conversations among peers or colleagues (management-types to other managment-types; labor-to-labor; etc.), rather than formal conversations within a hierarchy or power structure--apologies if that was confusing.
But a policy like this does implicitly place the onus on those who have authority or power in the workplace, to communicate more directly and clearly, rather than simply saying 'here's the handbook, follow it or I will crush you,' and prevents the kind of 'technically correct' or overly-bureaucratic rules-mongering that far too many bosses use to wield their power unfairly. If nothing else, this two-word policy's openness compels a third party's involvement should there be a disagreement about its interpretation, simply because of its non-specificity. The involvement of a third party often exposes, neutralizes or obviates attempted abuses of power in the workplace.
Unless talking to each other about difficult topics is in your job description, you shouldn't have to be doing it at work.
As clarification, I didn't mean talking about personally difficult topics, I meant conversations that are on-topic at work, necessary, but can be difficult (e.g., you want this project to go one way, I strongly disagree; you need more resources in your area budget but I need more for mine, and there's not enough for us both; etc.). There are plenty of difficult conversations that are necessary in many workplaces, with no aspects of anyone's personal lives being involved.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:03 AM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
I agree, on re-read my comment made the tacit assumption that I was talking about conversations among peers or colleagues (management-types to other managment-types; labor-to-labor; etc.), rather than formal conversations within a hierarchy or power structure--apologies if that was confusing.
But a policy like this does implicitly place the onus on those who have authority or power in the workplace, to communicate more directly and clearly, rather than simply saying 'here's the handbook, follow it or I will crush you,' and prevents the kind of 'technically correct' or overly-bureaucratic rules-mongering that far too many bosses use to wield their power unfairly. If nothing else, this two-word policy's openness compels a third party's involvement should there be a disagreement about its interpretation, simply because of its non-specificity. The involvement of a third party often exposes, neutralizes or obviates attempted abuses of power in the workplace.
Unless talking to each other about difficult topics is in your job description, you shouldn't have to be doing it at work.
As clarification, I didn't mean talking about personally difficult topics, I meant conversations that are on-topic at work, necessary, but can be difficult (e.g., you want this project to go one way, I strongly disagree; you need more resources in your area budget but I need more for mine, and there's not enough for us both; etc.). There are plenty of difficult conversations that are necessary in many workplaces, with no aspects of anyone's personal lives being involved.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:03 AM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
That's a fair cop; thanks for clarifying.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:21 AM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:21 AM on June 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
they could complain to HR about someone misbehaving or actively harassing and HR would squash them like a bug
Isn't that kind of what happens already?
Oh, you mean HR would squash the misbehavers like a bug. My bad.
posted by non canadian guy at 4:00 PM on June 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
Isn't that kind of what happens already?
Oh, you mean HR would squash the misbehavers like a bug. My bad.
posted by non canadian guy at 4:00 PM on June 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
I worked for a Blue Cross, which up until shortly before I started still had a "men wear suits" policy and "casual friday" was only implemented shortly after I started, and one employee, who handled paperwork and never saw customers, was constantly in debate with her boss over dress code. Purple denim pants, she declared, were not "jeans". BTW, jeans were not appropriate even for "casual friday".
At my current job, the boss likes everyone to wear shirts with the company logo embroidered over the left breast -- the company buys the shirts, we pick colors and styles within reason (for example, one guy doesn't like polos, so, boom, he gets long-sleeved oxfords, no questions asked) from a catalog and they provide plenty of shirts so we're not doing laundry every night. We're responsible for pants and shoes, just no jeans and tennis shoes (although 'classy' tennis shoes are fine it seems), and we're expected to be dressed such that at any time be ready to go out to a customer's site if needed, but it's really not hard when half our wardrobe is provided for us and khaki slacks and non-teenagery footwear of our choice are plenty comfortable.
I like this setup better than having to meet a strict corporate dress code, even though technically this is a "stricter" uniform, because there's less for me to think/worry about, and it's focused on the company getting the specific things it wants (uniformity, advertising, positive representation of the business) while we also get what makes us happy (comfort, flexibility in cut/color/style) out of the deal.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:02 PM on June 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
At my current job, the boss likes everyone to wear shirts with the company logo embroidered over the left breast -- the company buys the shirts, we pick colors and styles within reason (for example, one guy doesn't like polos, so, boom, he gets long-sleeved oxfords, no questions asked) from a catalog and they provide plenty of shirts so we're not doing laundry every night. We're responsible for pants and shoes, just no jeans and tennis shoes (although 'classy' tennis shoes are fine it seems), and we're expected to be dressed such that at any time be ready to go out to a customer's site if needed, but it's really not hard when half our wardrobe is provided for us and khaki slacks and non-teenagery footwear of our choice are plenty comfortable.
I like this setup better than having to meet a strict corporate dress code, even though technically this is a "stricter" uniform, because there's less for me to think/worry about, and it's focused on the company getting the specific things it wants (uniformity, advertising, positive representation of the business) while we also get what makes us happy (comfort, flexibility in cut/color/style) out of the deal.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:02 PM on June 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I had a warehouse kind of job a long time ago. One guy would come in wearing a long untucked t-shirt that said, in huge capital letters, "Don't ask me for shit". It was quite appropriate.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:45 AM on June 18, 2018
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:45 AM on June 18, 2018
/--The trouble I've had with company-provided shirts is that the last time I did so, someone assumed that all the workers would be male and... er... good luck buttoning even the largest size available over my rack. I handled it by pulling a matching shell (basically a tank top but usually nicer fabric or a lace border)) from my closet (see complaint about see-through clothing and inappropriate necklines already made above), asked for a shirt one size up from what would normally fit my shoulders and wore it like a jacket.
My current solution is that I found a jersey maxi dress that has (shock!) actual sleeves and bought five of them in different colors. They cover most of my legs so you have to look closely to see whether I've shaved. Frumpy? Somewhat. Uninspired? Yep. I suppose I could be called out on not being "polished", but anyone who wants to can damn well go clothes shopping with me some time and see if they have any better suggestions.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:05 AM on June 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
My current solution is that I found a jersey maxi dress that has (shock!) actual sleeves and bought five of them in different colors. They cover most of my legs so you have to look closely to see whether I've shaved. Frumpy? Somewhat. Uninspired? Yep. I suppose I could be called out on not being "polished", but anyone who wants to can damn well go clothes shopping with me some time and see if they have any better suggestions.
posted by Karmakaze at 6:05 AM on June 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
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posted by agregoli at 6:24 AM on June 16, 2018 [1 favorite]