A hybrid just lapped the Nürburgring in less than 5:20
June 30, 2018 10:57 AM Subscribe
The Porche 919 Hybrid Evo just lapped the 12.94 mile long Nürburgring in 5:19.546, 51.58 seconds faster than the record. The on board video feels like it's in fast forward. Jalopnik has a nice write up about what it means.
Yeah, the hybrid drive has a "Go Go Go" button that you can push to engage the electric motors, and the system also automatically engages when you hit the throttle coming out of corners. You didn't think they had a hybrid drive for fuel mileage, did you? :D
posted by Punkey at 11:26 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Punkey at 11:26 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Yeah what I was wondering is whether the electric assist is automatic or controlled manually. People in the comments seem to think it's automatic but can also be triggered manually to put it over the top
like here, probably
posted by atoxyl at 11:30 AM on June 30, 2018
like here, probably
posted by atoxyl at 11:30 AM on June 30, 2018
I was on an ICE train in Germany a few weeks that was up over 260 Kph and y’all holy shit that’s a fast speed. Seeing that car hit 329 Kph made my stomach drop.
posted by nikaspark at 11:42 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 11:42 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sorry if my screaming bothered anyone.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:45 AM on June 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:45 AM on June 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
In the Ring one the boost is mostly seen in corners, like a braking substitute, so I was thinking it was battery regeneration thing, a half-brake.
And of course, 2nd is a perfectly cromulent gear for 110km/h.
posted by rhizome at 11:47 AM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
And of course, 2nd is a perfectly cromulent gear for 110km/h.
posted by rhizome at 11:47 AM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Holy fuck. I've watched my fair share of Nurburgring videos, so I had some idea of what it looks like to go around that track fast, but nothing prepared me for this. I wouldn't try to drive it that fast in a video game, let alone with my flesh-and-blood ass on the line. Respect to everyone involved; it's good to see that our hybrid and electric car future doesn't have to be dull.
posted by Zonker at 11:52 AM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Zonker at 11:52 AM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I would definitely try to drive it that fast in a video game, but I wouldn't drive an actual car for at least two hours after playing a racing game that was that fast. Wooooo.
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:58 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by BrotherCaine at 11:58 AM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Going through the Carousel was just sort of a “meh” blink-and-you’ll-miss-it moment. Insane speed.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:59 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:59 AM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I had to do the math, but 350kph is only 214mph, so fast, but not like, mind bendingly fast. Still cool, don't get me wrong, but those speeds have been attainable in combustion engines for decades, no?
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:03 PM on June 30, 2018
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:03 PM on June 30, 2018
Average speed for the lap was 145.3 mph, according to a Porsche press release and the mathemagicians in the Jalopnik comments.
Average.
posted by notyou at 12:04 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Average.
posted by notyou at 12:04 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
That was a hell of a long five minutes and twenty seconds.
posted by jamjam at 12:04 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 12:04 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I understand that the OG top gear doofuses are gone, and since it was for Jeremy's bad behavior I'm not sorry about it- But I wish they were on the air just for their reaction to this news.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:05 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:05 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Secret Agent Sockpuppet. Yeah, in a long straight line a hybrid isn't really any more impressive than a straight up ICE, but on a course with a lot of turns it will dominate because it has so much more low end torque and can accelerate insanely fast out of the corners.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:10 PM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:10 PM on June 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
To put this in perspective, for those that didn't read the article; the next best time is 6:11.13. This beat the standing record of 35 years by 68 seconds in a game where the forces preventing you from doing this go up like x^3. They didn't just break the record, they put it in a whole new category. (Similar time differences can be had if you compare lap times of, say, a Dodge Viper SRT-10 against a Volkswagen Lupo GTI; but again, that whole x^3 nonsense, so this is an even bigger deal.)
Watching this onboard video is not like watching other car onboard video. This is like watching motorcycle video, only without the leaning. Other cars that accelerate this fast do so by doing a wheelie at the same time. This is bonkers.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 12:12 PM on June 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
Watching this onboard video is not like watching other car onboard video. This is like watching motorcycle video, only without the leaning. Other cars that accelerate this fast do so by doing a wheelie at the same time. This is bonkers.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 12:12 PM on June 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
Watching this onboard video is not like watching other car onboard video.
For reference purposes, I offer C’était un rendez-vous - Claude Lelouch (1976)
posted by mikelieman at 12:19 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
For reference purposes, I offer C’était un rendez-vous - Claude Lelouch (1976)
posted by mikelieman at 12:19 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
I had to do the math, but 350kph is only 214mph, so fast, but not like, mind bendingly fast. Still cool, don't get me wrong, but those speeds have been attainable in combustion engines for decades, no?
A little pedantry but that speedo actually topped out at 370 kph, or 230 mph. What I found amazing was the acceleration on the higher end. That thing would go from 200 to 300 kph in a damned hurry. When you can blow out of a corner and accelerate that quickly when you’re already well north of 100 mph,, that is mind bendingly fast.
posted by azpenguin at 12:22 PM on June 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
A little pedantry but that speedo actually topped out at 370 kph, or 230 mph. What I found amazing was the acceleration on the higher end. That thing would go from 200 to 300 kph in a damned hurry. When you can blow out of a corner and accelerate that quickly when you’re already well north of 100 mph,, that is mind bendingly fast.
posted by azpenguin at 12:22 PM on June 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
I had to do the math, but 350kph is only 214mph, so fast, but not like, mind bendingly fast. Still cool, don't get me wrong, but those speeds have been attainable in combustion engines for decades, no?
Well for one, according to the Jalopnik article:
Want another unbelievable stat? Today’s top speed on the notoriously dangerous, twisty Nordschleife was 229.5 mph.
For another, it’s one thing to talk about a vehicle’s top speed on a salt flat or something with plenty of space to slow down afterwards, but presumably it’s a different proposition on a track where what straights you do get are of limited length and are followed by curves.
posted by juv3nal at 12:25 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well for one, according to the Jalopnik article:
Want another unbelievable stat? Today’s top speed on the notoriously dangerous, twisty Nordschleife was 229.5 mph.
For another, it’s one thing to talk about a vehicle’s top speed on a salt flat or something with plenty of space to slow down afterwards, but presumably it’s a different proposition on a track where what straights you do get are of limited length and are followed by curves.
posted by juv3nal at 12:25 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
"The Rendezevous" is a brilliant piece of automotive cinema (if shockingly dangerous and irresponsible), but they averaged 50mph with a maximum of 124mph on that. That was fast for 1976, but you could probably do it in a Camry today.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 12:28 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 12:28 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
And now there are rumors that F1 may return to Nurburgring next season.
posted by notyou at 12:32 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by notyou at 12:32 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Car Time Seconds V Pwr (V^2) Norm 0 Porsche 911 GT2 RS 6:47.3 407.300 51.068009 2607.941527 1.683972 1 Lamborghini Huracan Performante 6:52.01 412.010 50.484212 2548.655616 1.103340 2 Porsche 911 GT3 RS 6:56.4 416.400 49.951969 2495.199233 0.579800 3 Porsche 918 Spyder (Weissach Package) 6:57.00 417.000 49.880096 2488.023969 0.509527 4 Lamborghini Aventador SV 6:59.730 49.555667 2455.764106 0.193582 5 Dodge Viper ACR 7:01.03 421.030 49.402655 2440.622360 0.045287 6 Nissan GT-R Nismo 7:08.69 428.690 48.519909 2354.181617 -0.801294 7 Mercedes-AMG GT R 7:10.92 430.920 48.268820 2329.879003 -1.039308 8 Gumpert Apollo Sport 7:11.57 431.570 48.196121 2322.866093 -1.107991 9 Dodge Viper ACR 7:12.13 432.130 48.133663 2316.849560 -1.166915 10 919 5:19.54 319.546 65.092350 4237.013999 17.638732From this list of lap times in 2018 the 919 from the article is a bit of an outlier.
posted by mce at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
yes, but is it reasonable to compare the Porsche 919 to Lambo / Mercedes / Viper which are combustion and street legal?
i’d prefer to see the 919 go against the Volkswagen IDR full EV that just chewed up and spat out Pike’s Peak in April.
edit: yeah we were impressed with boost acceleration but we were also in awe of the breaking. 300 down to 180 in a second?!? jeepers.
posted by lemon_icing at 12:53 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
i’d prefer to see the 919 go against the Volkswagen IDR full EV that just chewed up and spat out Pike’s Peak in April.
edit: yeah we were impressed with boost acceleration but we were also in awe of the breaking. 300 down to 180 in a second?!? jeepers.
posted by lemon_icing at 12:53 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
And just last week: "VW electric racer smashes Pikes Peak's overall record"
I feel like with electric vehicles, we're soon going to be in this situation where they are clearly better at just about anything (speed, power, total-cost-of-ownership, even range) but there's going to be this lag between what type of cars are best and what type of cars people think are the best. Because EVs are "hippy cars" or whatever.
posted by gwint at 12:55 PM on June 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I feel like with electric vehicles, we're soon going to be in this situation where they are clearly better at just about anything (speed, power, total-cost-of-ownership, even range) but there's going to be this lag between what type of cars are best and what type of cars people think are the best. Because EVs are "hippy cars" or whatever.
posted by gwint at 12:55 PM on June 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
BTW, here is that relatively sedate Porsche 911 GT2 RS video, doing a 6:47 lap. This is still the world record for a production automobile, but it shows just how vastly different a "street car" and the 919 LMP1 racecar actually are. Pay attention to how the 911 GT2 struggles with this track the entire time. It bounces, it squirms, it squeals tires at the limit of traction.. Watch how it enters and exits the corners... 919 ain't got time for that!
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:09 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:09 PM on June 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Lexus just came out with a hybrid on their super luxurious LC 500, which I'm really glad about; not like I'm in the market for one, but I feel like it's an important stage from the car industry in recognizing that even well-off customers are interested saving money on fuel/helping the environment. Good on Lexus. (Nice post, btw! Brightened my day.)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 1:10 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 1:10 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Used to agree with you, gwint, but whatever you think of Elon Musk and the actual performance and reliability of Teslas, I think they are changing the mainstream view of electric cars rapidly and for good.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:11 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 1:11 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
350 miles per hour in the desert is “whoop hollerin” fast yes but 229 miles per hour on a race track blasting off those turns is “bring me my brown pants” fast.
posted by nikaspark at 1:13 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 1:13 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
Hot damn! Wait until they find out about the wall-jump shortcut!
posted by Navelgazer at 1:25 PM on June 30, 2018 [21 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 1:25 PM on June 30, 2018 [21 favorites]
I had to do the math, but 350kph is only 214mph, so fast, but not like, mind bendingly fast. Still cool, don't get me wrong, but those speeds have been attainable in combustion engines for decades, no?
To follow the others, you shouldn't think of this as just "speed," but "speed through a particular place." I mean, a child's tricycle will do thousands of kilometers per second if you drop it into a black hole.
This would be an unremarkable speed for many kinds of racing car in a straight line. Top-fuel dragsters go well over 300mph and do zero to 300 in under 4 seconds, but they won't turn. This car wasn't going in a straight line, it was running a tight, twisty road course. If anything, performance over a road course like this is more indicative of an overall concept of "performance" than just acceleration is. Drag races test acceleration and whether you have enough handling to keep the car going straight. A racing circuit like this tests acceleration, braking, lateral grip, car balance, and more.
Let's compare to foot races. A drag race is like the 50m, endurance racing like a marathon. A lap of the Nurburgring might be like the 400 meters, where the record is 43.03 seconds. This car did the equivalent of shaving five and a half seconds off the record for the 400.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:27 PM on June 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
To follow the others, you shouldn't think of this as just "speed," but "speed through a particular place." I mean, a child's tricycle will do thousands of kilometers per second if you drop it into a black hole.
This would be an unremarkable speed for many kinds of racing car in a straight line. Top-fuel dragsters go well over 300mph and do zero to 300 in under 4 seconds, but they won't turn. This car wasn't going in a straight line, it was running a tight, twisty road course. If anything, performance over a road course like this is more indicative of an overall concept of "performance" than just acceleration is. Drag races test acceleration and whether you have enough handling to keep the car going straight. A racing circuit like this tests acceleration, braking, lateral grip, car balance, and more.
Let's compare to foot races. A drag race is like the 50m, endurance racing like a marathon. A lap of the Nurburgring might be like the 400 meters, where the record is 43.03 seconds. This car did the equivalent of shaving five and a half seconds off the record for the 400.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:27 PM on June 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
Pardon my ignorance about how these cars work, but is there any explanation of what the “boost” indicator is? Is that the electric engine adding power to sustain power during deceleration?
It's a hybrid, so that's the boost from the turbocharger shoving air through the four cylinder gas engine.
posted by linux at 1:30 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's a hybrid, so that's the boost from the turbocharger shoving air through the four cylinder gas engine.
posted by linux at 1:30 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
There's more than the turbochargers, though. There's also a Kers device, which adds power to the output driveshaft.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:39 PM on June 30, 2018
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:39 PM on June 30, 2018
So it's a racecar which is about as fast as an F1 racecar. Cool I guess.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2018
posted by Pyrogenesis at 1:42 PM on June 30, 2018
Pyrogenesis: the handling and acceleration seem to be the big points here, plus the massive shave off of the previous record for the track.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:44 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 1:44 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
It’s like breaking the record for a human running a 1.5 mile race by nearly a minute. The record improved by about 14%. Amazing!
posted by haiku warrior at 1:53 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by haiku warrior at 1:53 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Up until now my favorite Nürburgring video was Sabine Schmitz doing it in a Transit van. Until now. Wow, what a performance!
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:07 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:07 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
There's also a Kers device, which adds power to the output driveshaft.
It definitely represents the turbo since that bar is filled at the start of the lap, the question would be if the BRAKE bar is reporting how much is being recovered -- but does it then report how much is put back in the system through BOOST or that is not reported because it already is reported as recovered?
If BOOST is for energy from both KERS and turbo, it would have been nice to see that bar split into two colors or something.
posted by linux at 2:30 PM on June 30, 2018
It definitely represents the turbo since that bar is filled at the start of the lap, the question would be if the BRAKE bar is reporting how much is being recovered -- but does it then report how much is put back in the system through BOOST or that is not reported because it already is reported as recovered?
If BOOST is for energy from both KERS and turbo, it would have been nice to see that bar split into two colors or something.
posted by linux at 2:30 PM on June 30, 2018
Its not the turbocharger. A turbocharger is spun by exhaust gases so it produces the most boost at high RPM when the amount of air being pumped through the engine is the highest. On the long back straight when the car is running at redline the "Boost" bar is at zero. This is the exact opposite of a turbocharger's characteristic.
posted by hwyengr at 2:56 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by hwyengr at 2:56 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
The boost bar isn't showing turbo boost pressure, it's the electric regen system power-on-demand indicator - it shows you when it's being applied, just as the 'brake' indicator. hwyengr has it.
posted by a halcyon day at 3:14 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by a halcyon day at 3:14 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: a child's tricycle will do thousands of kilometers per second if you drop it into a black hole.
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:02 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Celsius1414 at 4:02 PM on June 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
..and yet it can be slowed to a crawl by a simple plate of beans.
posted by howfar at 4:30 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by howfar at 4:30 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
It's a hybrid, so that's the boost from the turbocharger shoving air through the four cylinder gas engine.
No, it is not the turbo. Turbo boost would be flat lined maximum all the way down the straights on full throttle. The boost indication is the expenditure of the hybrid system - electric power being used from the recovered sources in the car.
posted by Brockles at 5:00 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
No, it is not the turbo. Turbo boost would be flat lined maximum all the way down the straights on full throttle. The boost indication is the expenditure of the hybrid system - electric power being used from the recovered sources in the car.
posted by Brockles at 5:00 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
So, is the answer to add a turbo lane to I-95 and get drivers from D.C. to NYC in 45 minutes? Because I would support that plan.
posted by the sobsister at 5:02 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by the sobsister at 5:02 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
And now there are rumors that F1 may return to Nurburgring next season.
Not the same Nurburgring. This is the Nordschliefe, there is another permanent circuit that is shorter and designed for F1 cars. You can see the two track layouts here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring
posted by Brockles at 5:06 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Not the same Nurburgring. This is the Nordschliefe, there is another permanent circuit that is shorter and designed for F1 cars. You can see the two track layouts here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring
posted by Brockles at 5:06 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
So as to when the boost is applied, it looks to me like it is triggered by low enough rpm and as a pre-power delivery smoother - ie 3-4,500 before the turbo comes on and main engine power is available. Which makes sense and is how I understood the 919 to work.
I can't work out if it is driver triggered or not. If it is it is a 'the next throttle application will be electric assisted or not' toggle. So maybe driver selectable, but automatically applied at that point based on throttle pedal position would make the most sense.
The car is insanely, spectacularly fast. Here is some footage of it from the outside during testing for the Spa track record a few months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xf9B6Q9LP4 With bonus 'tyre hits the bodywork on full compression' at the first right at Raidillon (the corner at the bottom of Eau Rouge that people always think is Eau Rouge). Seeing it accelerate from the hairpin at La Source doesn't even look real. It is spectacular.
posted by Brockles at 5:15 PM on June 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
I can't work out if it is driver triggered or not. If it is it is a 'the next throttle application will be electric assisted or not' toggle. So maybe driver selectable, but automatically applied at that point based on throttle pedal position would make the most sense.
The car is insanely, spectacularly fast. Here is some footage of it from the outside during testing for the Spa track record a few months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xf9B6Q9LP4 With bonus 'tyre hits the bodywork on full compression' at the first right at Raidillon (the corner at the bottom of Eau Rouge that people always think is Eau Rouge). Seeing it accelerate from the hairpin at La Source doesn't even look real. It is spectacular.
posted by Brockles at 5:15 PM on June 30, 2018 [9 favorites]
Also the braking and the skill involved to produce massive pedal pressures and also control how the car is pitched and shifted in load transfer within those tiny, tiny fractional braking zones is inhumanly impressive. I don't know how to explain it in terms that people will understand but the skill and control involved in that run was mind-fuckingly impressive, just as much as the car was.
Highlights - 2:40 in - those are some CORNERS at seriously high speeds. 5:17 - the two stage MASSIVE braking zone at the end of the fastest section into the left right kink.
I have been at a high profile Pro race this weekend and absolutely everyone is talking about this and going "WHAT!!!!!!" over the footage. And this is drivers and seasoned motorsports veterans going giddy and childlike glee over a race car.
posted by Brockles at 5:24 PM on June 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
Highlights - 2:40 in - those are some CORNERS at seriously high speeds. 5:17 - the two stage MASSIVE braking zone at the end of the fastest section into the left right kink.
I have been at a high profile Pro race this weekend and absolutely everyone is talking about this and going "WHAT!!!!!!" over the footage. And this is drivers and seasoned motorsports veterans going giddy and childlike glee over a race car.
posted by Brockles at 5:24 PM on June 30, 2018 [23 favorites]
Could an F1 even run on something this hilly (asking because of genuine ignorance.)
posted by Navelgazer at 5:29 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 5:29 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
@Navelgazer - yes, the Nordschleife is the old F1 track. Modern cars could still run it.
posted by jordantwodelta at 6:20 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jordantwodelta at 6:20 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
What I noticed is the driver's poor brain being shaken violently like a paint shaker. I wonder if there is any info on potential brain damage for these drivers.
Also impressive is the ability of the eyes and brain to track a meaningful image when the head is being shaken that violently.
posted by JackFlash at 7:12 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also impressive is the ability of the eyes and brain to track a meaningful image when the head is being shaken that violently.
posted by JackFlash at 7:12 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
The reason they stopped running races on the nordschleife is because it's too spread out and there isn't quick access in the case of a crash on some of the more remote areas of the track.
posted by VTX at 7:34 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by VTX at 7:34 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Not the same Nurburgring. This is the Nordschliefe, there is another permanent circuit that is shorter and designed for F1 cars. You can see the two track layouts here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nürburgring
sadly ... and previously ...
a quiet cruise through the German forest
posted by philip-random at 7:40 PM on June 30, 2018
sadly ... and previously ...
a quiet cruise through the German forest
posted by philip-random at 7:40 PM on June 30, 2018
The reason they stopped running races on the nordschleife is because it's too spread out and there isn't quick access in the case of a crash on some of the more remote areas of the track.
which is a major part of the plot line of the surprisingly good recent Formula 1 movie RUSH, based on stuff that happened during the 1976 F1 World Championship
posted by philip-random at 7:44 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
which is a major part of the plot line of the surprisingly good recent Formula 1 movie RUSH, based on stuff that happened during the 1976 F1 World Championship
posted by philip-random at 7:44 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Like Brockles says, honestly one of the most impressive parts of this for me is the driver’s skill in handling the damn thing. I can only imagine that something that makes that much torque is a lot easier to turn into a crumpled pile of twisted metal than it is to actually drive.
posted by invitapriore at 7:52 PM on June 30, 2018
posted by invitapriore at 7:52 PM on June 30, 2018
Also I’m always mind-blown by the ability of a turbo 4 to make that much power all on its own until I remember that there’s much less concern in that world with making sure that the car can still make it to the supermarket the day after.
posted by invitapriore at 7:56 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by invitapriore at 7:56 PM on June 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Being more a car-berater than a car-appreciater I'd seen this link bandied about mostly in "YOU MUST SEE THIS!" terms, so hadn't at all realised what it was. That is madness, magic or both. Thanks for sharing and contextualising!
posted by I'm always feeling, Blue at 8:10 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by I'm always feeling, Blue at 8:10 PM on June 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Is that car-berater / carburetor pun accidental? It's a thing of beauty either way.
posted by cgc373 at 8:44 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by cgc373 at 8:44 PM on June 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Only on MetairFilter.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:46 PM on June 30, 2018
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:46 PM on June 30, 2018
Is it just me, or does it seem odd that the record setting driver's name (Timo Bernhard) is barely mentioned in any of the coverage?
posted by fairmettle at 9:24 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 9:24 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Is that car-berater / carburetor pun accidental?
Ha, cheers! I practised it in front of the mirror like forever.
posted by I'm always feeling, Blue at 9:46 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Ha, cheers! I practised it in front of the mirror like forever.
posted by I'm always feeling, Blue at 9:46 PM on June 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Is it just me, or does it seem odd that the record setting driver's name (Timo Bernhard) is barely mentioned in any of the coverage?
Yeah, now that you say that, and I think about it for 2 mins, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Porche wanted and how easy it is buy into framing.
posted by Uncle at 10:13 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, now that you say that, and I think about it for 2 mins, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Porche wanted and how easy it is buy into framing.
posted by Uncle at 10:13 PM on June 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Porche wanted and how easy it is buy into framing.
In the rare instances when Timo Bernhard's name is actually mentioned, he is casually dismissed as a "Porsche factory driver" - - almost like an optional accessory stamped out on their production line.
posted by fairmettle at 10:56 PM on June 30, 2018
In the rare instances when Timo Bernhard's name is actually mentioned, he is casually dismissed as a "Porsche factory driver" - - almost like an optional accessory stamped out on their production line.
posted by fairmettle at 10:56 PM on June 30, 2018
Parts of that run took my breath away. Wonder how long it'll be before the human part of the interface is the limiting factor?
posted by arcticseal at 1:48 AM on July 1, 2018
posted by arcticseal at 1:48 AM on July 1, 2018
Shotgun!
posted by zengargoyle at 2:44 AM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zengargoyle at 2:44 AM on July 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Could an F1 even run on something this hilly (asking because of genuine ignorance.)
Technically, yes. But it requires a lot more wheel travel than F1 cars currently have so they'd have to completely redesign suspension (like, entirely - every component revisited most likely) to be competitive on that track. Also, it is wildly unsafe (lack of run off particularly, in case of an accident) so it would never ever be a race location.
The 919 would have had significant modifications from it's standard set up too, to be able to maintain traction through those elevation changes. I dread to think how hard it was to get the damping right.
posted by Brockles at 3:33 AM on July 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Technically, yes. But it requires a lot more wheel travel than F1 cars currently have so they'd have to completely redesign suspension (like, entirely - every component revisited most likely) to be competitive on that track. Also, it is wildly unsafe (lack of run off particularly, in case of an accident) so it would never ever be a race location.
The 919 would have had significant modifications from it's standard set up too, to be able to maintain traction through those elevation changes. I dread to think how hard it was to get the damping right.
posted by Brockles at 3:33 AM on July 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Well. That was the hottest thing I've watched in weeks. *fans self*
posted by TwoStride at 9:05 AM on July 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 9:05 AM on July 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
That was some truly astonishing cornering. Amazing car and amazing driver.
The sound of it though. The slide whistle notes of the turbos over the engine was surreal.
posted by monopas at 11:06 AM on July 1, 2018
The sound of it though. The slide whistle notes of the turbos over the engine was surreal.
posted by monopas at 11:06 AM on July 1, 2018
I dread to think how hard it was to get the damping right.
The inset showing the driver made it look to me as if his head was bobbing around like crazy.
Was that normal, or is it a reflection of how hard it was to get the damping right?
posted by jamjam at 11:13 AM on July 1, 2018
The inset showing the driver made it look to me as if his head was bobbing around like crazy.
Was that normal, or is it a reflection of how hard it was to get the damping right?
posted by jamjam at 11:13 AM on July 1, 2018
Damping is about wheel and tyre contact patch control. If you make a car more comfortable to be in, it most likely makes it slower. It didn't look particularly rough inside the car to me that wouldn't be attributable to the speed and the track. So, in short, that's normal.
posted by Brockles at 11:59 AM on July 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Brockles at 11:59 AM on July 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
To further answer that - as a race engineer I don't give two farts in a hurricane about driver comfort beyond a seating position where their limbs are in good geometry to operate the controls, their seat is moulded to them to stop them moving beyond the control movements but they can MAYBE have a cool-suit device if heat related fatigue is an issue (but we're not close on minimum weight). Beyond that, suck it up and drive, you big pansy. It's a bit 'my diamond shoes are too tight' to complain they get shaken about a bit in their several hundred thousand dollar (and up) racecar...
posted by Brockles at 12:04 PM on July 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Brockles at 12:04 PM on July 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sounds like another example where it's worth the effort to cultivate a good working relationship with the support folks. Not only could a driver better provide feedback to the engineers but they could maybe convince them that, for example, the could maybe use some shock absorption to keep the vibrations to interfere with the drivers vision or something else performance related.
The way the electric motors rocket that thing out of the corners has got to feel like getting kicked in the chest and I don't think there is much the engineers could do to help that other than make the car go slower.
One of the common themes of accounts of automotive journalists driving F1 and other top end race cars like this is that although they have skill to handle some very high performance sports and race cars, they find that they're not physically capable of driving the fastest race cars near their limits.
posted by VTX at 6:36 PM on July 1, 2018
The way the electric motors rocket that thing out of the corners has got to feel like getting kicked in the chest and I don't think there is much the engineers could do to help that other than make the car go slower.
One of the common themes of accounts of automotive journalists driving F1 and other top end race cars like this is that although they have skill to handle some very high performance sports and race cars, they find that they're not physically capable of driving the fastest race cars near their limits.
posted by VTX at 6:36 PM on July 1, 2018
I once had a few laps in a pro-level kart, which I've been told is about as close as you're going to get to F1 in terms of power-to-weight ratio without well, having a few million dollars in your back pocket. And yeah, that was like riding a rocket. I could do the straights fine but after maybe two laps, I realized I simply didn't have the stamina to put the car where I wanted to, particularly coming off the turns where the g-load was the greatest. Sobering.
posted by philip-random at 6:46 PM on July 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 6:46 PM on July 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Parts of that run took my breath away. Wonder how long it'll be before the human part of the interface is the limiting factor?
Honestly, on a dry course with no other cars I’m surprised if it weren’t technically possible for it to already be the case though maybe the added weight of sensor/telemetry equipment you might need would be a limiting factor.
posted by juv3nal at 8:39 PM on July 1, 2018
Honestly, on a dry course with no other cars I’m surprised if it weren’t technically possible for it to already be the case though maybe the added weight of sensor/telemetry equipment you might need would be a limiting factor.
posted by juv3nal at 8:39 PM on July 1, 2018
I’m surprised if it weren’t technically possible for it to already be the case though maybe the added weight of sensor/telemetry equipment you might need would be a limiting factor.
It's still a long way off. The bag of meat and bones still has a use... Not least because of the instincts of good drivers. Processing speed for reactive electronics and hardware is still wildly slow compared to a driver - see the difficulties that Roborace has, because even a pretty average "pro" driver can annihilate the times it can produces - but the biggest thing that puts the faster drivers ahead is the gut feeling and instinct and prediction of the car's behaviour. Drivers often start reacting to an issue as or before it happens - pre-emptive steering corrections to anticipate the effect of a kerb or surface change on the car, for example. That requires accurate visual references (where exactly and at what angle the car will hit the kerb) and a judgement call on the resulting knock to grip/vehicle composure. If it is faster to take a huge amount of kerb at a corner, the car will be knocked partially onto two wheels during that process, but that takes judgement not to overload the outside tyres, preparation for the resulting correction and also a judgement call on adjusting the trajectory across the kerbs so that the car is on line and without a problematic yaw as it lands.
So even when we get fast enough physical and electronic reactions to inputs, it is a VERY long way off before we can get enough predictive responses to car handling from computation, combined with inch perfect location data.
posted by Brockles at 7:43 AM on July 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's still a long way off. The bag of meat and bones still has a use... Not least because of the instincts of good drivers. Processing speed for reactive electronics and hardware is still wildly slow compared to a driver - see the difficulties that Roborace has, because even a pretty average "pro" driver can annihilate the times it can produces - but the biggest thing that puts the faster drivers ahead is the gut feeling and instinct and prediction of the car's behaviour. Drivers often start reacting to an issue as or before it happens - pre-emptive steering corrections to anticipate the effect of a kerb or surface change on the car, for example. That requires accurate visual references (where exactly and at what angle the car will hit the kerb) and a judgement call on the resulting knock to grip/vehicle composure. If it is faster to take a huge amount of kerb at a corner, the car will be knocked partially onto two wheels during that process, but that takes judgement not to overload the outside tyres, preparation for the resulting correction and also a judgement call on adjusting the trajectory across the kerbs so that the car is on line and without a problematic yaw as it lands.
So even when we get fast enough physical and electronic reactions to inputs, it is a VERY long way off before we can get enough predictive responses to car handling from computation, combined with inch perfect location data.
posted by Brockles at 7:43 AM on July 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
could maybe convince them that, for example, the could maybe use some shock absorption to keep the vibrations to interfere with the drivers vision or something else performance related.
I exaggerated a little. Any shocks or vibration to the driver that affected vision would likely be an issue for tyre contact patch control anyway, so there is some parity of needs for a relatively smooth ride. It's unlikely that a problematic vibration would be faster in that example, but a smooth ride for a race car is extremely uncomfortable for a normal person. But you get banged around in a race car a lot, and if it is fast, we're looking at a little extra sliver of foam on the driver's spine, or a padded head rest, or some other fix LONG before we tweak the car for that.
Also, we're not fighting the driver. They want to go as fast as possible just as much as we do. "No, I'll be fine" is usually the first response as soon as they see the gains from a change that is a bit uncomfortable. But by the time you get to serious comfort issues, you're normally dealing with a supremely fit athlete who is more driven and focussed than the majority of people are accustomed to, so it's hardly ever an issue.
posted by Brockles at 7:48 AM on July 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
I exaggerated a little. Any shocks or vibration to the driver that affected vision would likely be an issue for tyre contact patch control anyway, so there is some parity of needs for a relatively smooth ride. It's unlikely that a problematic vibration would be faster in that example, but a smooth ride for a race car is extremely uncomfortable for a normal person. But you get banged around in a race car a lot, and if it is fast, we're looking at a little extra sliver of foam on the driver's spine, or a padded head rest, or some other fix LONG before we tweak the car for that.
Also, we're not fighting the driver. They want to go as fast as possible just as much as we do. "No, I'll be fine" is usually the first response as soon as they see the gains from a change that is a bit uncomfortable. But by the time you get to serious comfort issues, you're normally dealing with a supremely fit athlete who is more driven and focussed than the majority of people are accustomed to, so it's hardly ever an issue.
posted by Brockles at 7:48 AM on July 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Your point is well taken about response times, but I guess my assumption was that a machine would hypothetically have access to way more data, with way greater precision in areas that a human would have to rely on experience and intuition. I guess that all takes time to process though so maybe it’s part of the problem.
posted by juv3nal at 8:24 AM on July 2, 2018
posted by juv3nal at 8:24 AM on July 2, 2018
I guess I was thinking mostly re: “That requires accurate visual references” with that. An Ai car bristling with lasers on the outside could hypothetically have mapped the geometry for the entire course down to the millimetre given enough (or a single slow enough) practice laps, no?
posted by juv3nal at 8:27 AM on July 2, 2018
posted by juv3nal at 8:27 AM on July 2, 2018
Well, how would it map to a millimetre when the car itself is constantly vibrating, bouncing (on the tyres and with suspension travel) and also rolling, yawing, pitching and any combination of the above. Also, it is sliding across the surface whenever it turns, too.
Even if you had a steady state platform (which is functionally impossible) the rate of data crunching would be astronomical if you tried to work down to that level, but as soon as you realise it needs to account for the constantly and rapidly changing base datum it is outside the range of reality. More data isn't the issue, it's prioritising data that is important. Best guess stuff, or just ignoring the noise. A machine would need to process absolutely everything before it could decide what was noise. Of note, also, is that there is no single instance of anything like this kind of control that I can think of in any other industry that could prove viability.
Besides, if this was even remotely possible, roborace (see the video link above) would be half decent. But in that video it produced a 2m 18s time against Ryan Tuerck's 1:51. His lap was pretty bad (very scrappy and he is not a particularly good race car driver, but specialises in a different style of car) but the robocar struggled to get within 125% of his time. Cut off for qualifying in a race is 107% usually. The roborace car - after millions in development and several years - can't even get up to a pace to retain heat in the tyres. I can drive a race car, but I don't even get onto the spectrum of what a real race car driver is capable of, and I am confident I could beat that time by a significant margin inside 40 laps having never seen car or track before. It is woefully slow. It's basically pace car speed slow compared to what the actual car is capable of, and that is the best autonomous car in existence.
posted by Brockles at 8:54 AM on July 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Even if you had a steady state platform (which is functionally impossible) the rate of data crunching would be astronomical if you tried to work down to that level, but as soon as you realise it needs to account for the constantly and rapidly changing base datum it is outside the range of reality. More data isn't the issue, it's prioritising data that is important. Best guess stuff, or just ignoring the noise. A machine would need to process absolutely everything before it could decide what was noise. Of note, also, is that there is no single instance of anything like this kind of control that I can think of in any other industry that could prove viability.
Besides, if this was even remotely possible, roborace (see the video link above) would be half decent. But in that video it produced a 2m 18s time against Ryan Tuerck's 1:51. His lap was pretty bad (very scrappy and he is not a particularly good race car driver, but specialises in a different style of car) but the robocar struggled to get within 125% of his time. Cut off for qualifying in a race is 107% usually. The roborace car - after millions in development and several years - can't even get up to a pace to retain heat in the tyres. I can drive a race car, but I don't even get onto the spectrum of what a real race car driver is capable of, and I am confident I could beat that time by a significant margin inside 40 laps having never seen car or track before. It is woefully slow. It's basically pace car speed slow compared to what the actual car is capable of, and that is the best autonomous car in existence.
posted by Brockles at 8:54 AM on July 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
So as to when the boost is applied, it looks to me like it is triggered by low enough rpm and as a pre-power delivery smoother - ie 3-4,500 before the turbo comes on and main engine power is available. Which makes sense and is how I understood the 919 to work.
It's even better than that - the torque curve of an electric motor is the inverse of an ICE and so using one to fill in the gaps of the other is brilliant.
I fully expect Pikes Peak to be further crushed by EVs in the future. Because an ICE that gets 200 HP at sea level will do ~130 at 10,000 feet. But, a 10KW electric motor at sea level is a 10KW motor at 10,000 feet is a 10KW motor on the moon. There is no performance degradation as you climb - which is why Teslas are such ridiculous fun on high mountain passes around here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:28 PM on July 2, 2018
It's even better than that - the torque curve of an electric motor is the inverse of an ICE and so using one to fill in the gaps of the other is brilliant.
I fully expect Pikes Peak to be further crushed by EVs in the future. Because an ICE that gets 200 HP at sea level will do ~130 at 10,000 feet. But, a 10KW electric motor at sea level is a 10KW motor at 10,000 feet is a 10KW motor on the moon. There is no performance degradation as you climb - which is why Teslas are such ridiculous fun on high mountain passes around here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:28 PM on July 2, 2018
Y'all talking about robotic cars racing, but what about the midpoint between what we have and that? aka, a drone car? Pilot that shit from a nice comfortable simulator chair just like playing Gran Turismo. I think the only issue there would be the bandwidth issues, and it's probably on the order of why we use drone aircraft to surveil things and occasionally toss a missile on them, vs. getting into dogfights with them. That said, there are quadcopter drone racing leagues already forming up, so it can't be too much of a stretch.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:49 PM on July 2, 2018
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:49 PM on July 2, 2018
what about the midpoint between what we have and that? aka, a drone car?
But we already have widespread RC car racing and professional Sim racing for many years. What is the advantage in combining the two other than more cost and potential risk from a larger, fast moving and remotely controlled vehicle?
posted by Brockles at 3:04 PM on July 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
But we already have widespread RC car racing and professional Sim racing for many years. What is the advantage in combining the two other than more cost and potential risk from a larger, fast moving and remotely controlled vehicle?
posted by Brockles at 3:04 PM on July 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
An example that I heard somewhere or other that illustrates how humans and robots do things differently is trying to toss a tennis ball so it bounces off a wall and the floor and then catching it. A robot can do it and do it with stunning accuracy but it has to do mountains of calculations. They can do them pretty quickly but they still have to do them. Humans, meanwhile, can just kind of do it and more or less figure it out on the fly.
With a complicated task like driving a car at the edge of it's capabilities creates orders of magnitude more calculations and they're changing constantly while experienced human drivers can still just kind of do it without really thinking about it.
posted by VTX at 3:19 PM on July 2, 2018
With a complicated task like driving a car at the edge of it's capabilities creates orders of magnitude more calculations and they're changing constantly while experienced human drivers can still just kind of do it without really thinking about it.
posted by VTX at 3:19 PM on July 2, 2018
Worth remembering that humans are still better than machines generally for this kind of thing, and that only a tiny, tiny fraction of humans can drive a race car effectively at speed.
posted by Brockles at 3:27 PM on July 2, 2018
posted by Brockles at 3:27 PM on July 2, 2018
There is no performance degradation as you climb - which is why Teslas are such ridiculous fun on high mountain passes around here.
This is interesting, though, because while the EV power plant works just as well at elevation, the aero and cooling doesn't. So for VW's Pikes Peak car those systems were overkill for sea level to ensure they'd perform at altitude. Which probably doesn't affect a Tesla sedan, but might affect their Roadster, or a forthcoming Porsche EV with active aero for example.
posted by a halcyon day at 11:46 AM on July 3, 2018
This is interesting, though, because while the EV power plant works just as well at elevation, the aero and cooling doesn't. So for VW's Pikes Peak car those systems were overkill for sea level to ensure they'd perform at altitude. Which probably doesn't affect a Tesla sedan, but might affect their Roadster, or a forthcoming Porsche EV with active aero for example.
posted by a halcyon day at 11:46 AM on July 3, 2018
I am told from those that have done it that the biggest issue at Pike's Peak is cooling the brakes when you get nearer the top. There are some serious hairpins up there, so heavy, heavy braking involved and not much air to cool things down.
Also: There is not so much performance degradation on an IC engine if you turbocharge it, as the system naturally self corrects to some extent. Turbo engines are less affected by altitude.
posted by Brockles at 12:22 PM on July 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also: There is not so much performance degradation on an IC engine if you turbocharge it, as the system naturally self corrects to some extent. Turbo engines are less affected by altitude.
posted by Brockles at 12:22 PM on July 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
...hence their early use in high-altitude piston-engined aircraft like the P-38.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:51 PM on July 3, 2018
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:51 PM on July 3, 2018
Also: There is not so much performance degradation on an IC engine if you turbocharge it, as the system naturally self corrects to some extent. Turbo engines are less affected by altitude.
I’ve driven a turbo at over 8000 feet elevation, where I’m used to a car being sluggish due to the thinner air. It’s pretty surprising to feel a car go that fast at altitude once the turbo spins up; it was as fast as it was down at 2500 feet at the valley floor. (BTW the Dodge Omni GLH was more fun to drive than it had any right to be. Buuuuuut I wouldn’t exactly call it reliable.)
posted by azpenguin at 7:32 PM on July 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’ve driven a turbo at over 8000 feet elevation, where I’m used to a car being sluggish due to the thinner air. It’s pretty surprising to feel a car go that fast at altitude once the turbo spins up; it was as fast as it was down at 2500 feet at the valley floor. (BTW the Dodge Omni GLH was more fun to drive than it had any right to be. Buuuuuut I wouldn’t exactly call it reliable.)
posted by azpenguin at 7:32 PM on July 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Lord of The Ring himself says he never made a perfect lap there. Fucking awesome and challeging circuit!
posted by philip-random at 11:15 PM on July 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 11:15 PM on July 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
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Pardon my ignorance about how these cars work, but is there any explanation of what the “boost” indicator is? Is that the electric engine adding power to sustain power during deceleration?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:10 AM on June 30, 2018