Ayla's son Durc found
August 29, 2018 8:11 AM Subscribe
The first known person with parents of two different species (Neanderthal and Denisovian) has been found.
(I know Ayla was Cro-Magnon and the body they found was a woman, I know there were multiple other characters of mixed species.)
(I know Ayla was Cro-Magnon and the body they found was a woman, I know there were multiple other characters of mixed species.)
MOM: “It's just a phase.”
posted by Fizz at 8:19 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 8:19 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Here's a longer NYT read by Carl Zimmer, and here's the Nature paper.
What makes the discovery all the more remarkable is that scientists didn’t have to look all that long to find a hybrid. Until today, scientists had discovered only four Denisovans; the fifth turned out to be a first-generation hybrid.
:O
posted by little onion at 8:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
What makes the discovery all the more remarkable is that scientists didn’t have to look all that long to find a hybrid. Until today, scientists had discovered only four Denisovans; the fifth turned out to be a first-generation hybrid.
:O
posted by little onion at 8:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
It’s amazing that we have only a few tiny fragments of a handful of Denisovans, and little idea what they were like, yet we know this.
posted by Segundus at 8:35 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 8:35 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Is "species" the right word, given the successful interbreeding?
posted by clawsoon at 9:02 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 9:02 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Durc sat up, thanked the archaeologist for digging him out and announced "There can be only one".
posted by sammyo at 9:03 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 9:03 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
i am so mad about this thread title's ability to immediately grab my interest on something that i would already have been interested in! i will never be free of the cavefuckery!
posted by poffin boffin at 9:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
Is "species" the right word, given the successful interbreeding?
Eh, the definition of species that requires different species' individuals not to be able to create fertile offspring is sort of too strict. Not every branch of biology uses it. (Plus I think don't know whether Denisova 11 was fertile.)
posted by little onion at 9:29 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Eh, the definition of species that requires different species' individuals not to be able to create fertile offspring is sort of too strict. Not every branch of biology uses it. (Plus I think don't know whether Denisova 11 was fertile.)
posted by little onion at 9:29 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
From the NYT article: “They didn’t meet that often, but when they met they seemed to not have prejudices against each other and mixed freely,” [Dr. Paabo] said.
I'm not sure how to frame this as a way that doesn't risk dead goating, but I don't know much about this topic (and never heard about Denisovians before this post, actually) and am probably interpreting this in layman terms rather than field specific, but I'm genuinely curious about this assertion and ask this sincerely. How would scientists come to the conclusion that they didn't have prejudices against each other and mixed freely, just based on the fact they interbred? Is it just because of the significance of already finding a first-generation hybrid within such an amazingly small sample, suggesting it might have been statistically common and...therefore freely done?
posted by mixedmetaphors at 9:43 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure how to frame this as a way that doesn't risk dead goating, but I don't know much about this topic (and never heard about Denisovians before this post, actually) and am probably interpreting this in layman terms rather than field specific, but I'm genuinely curious about this assertion and ask this sincerely. How would scientists come to the conclusion that they didn't have prejudices against each other and mixed freely, just based on the fact they interbred? Is it just because of the significance of already finding a first-generation hybrid within such an amazingly small sample, suggesting it might have been statistically common and...therefore freely done?
posted by mixedmetaphors at 9:43 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
At the time she was writing, Jean Auel couldn't have known that the children of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons would be fertile instead of sterile, as she suggested. (I have just been writing an essay about those books; Lord, I will never escape.)
What I'd dearly like to know, and probably never can, is exactly how different the other Homo subspecies considered themselves to be. Could they possibly have been more racist than we are today? I'm not sure they could. I would guess that humans divided themselves into groups of "us, the true people" and "them over there who talk strange," as suggested by the rest of human history, and did not like bands of the other subspecies any more or less than other groups of humans have liked each other.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
What I'd dearly like to know, and probably never can, is exactly how different the other Homo subspecies considered themselves to be. Could they possibly have been more racist than we are today? I'm not sure they could. I would guess that humans divided themselves into groups of "us, the true people" and "them over there who talk strange," as suggested by the rest of human history, and did not like bands of the other subspecies any more or less than other groups of humans have liked each other.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
i regret to inform you that i wish to read this essay v much.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:45 AM on August 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:45 AM on August 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
i regret to inform you that i wish to read this essay v much.
posted by poffin boffin
Me too!
posted by Ziggy500 at 10:04 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin
Me too!
posted by Ziggy500 at 10:04 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
All of my close cousins are sapiens hybrids- nice to see some others further afield.
Now that I've made my requisite username joke, HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO COOL. I agree with the interpretation that considering how quickly they've found a hybrid unless this is the only one they'll ever fine and the scientists were incredibly lucky, it probably means they're were more of them than we realized. Which in turn supports *my* hypothesis that the later Homos (sapiens, neanderthals, denisovian) were more like our bonobo cousins than the chimps. maybe our recent aggression all stems from agriculture or something. But 50,000 years ago is the blink of an eye. this is so cool
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:23 AM on August 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
Now that I've made my requisite username joke, HOLY SHIT THIS IS SO COOL. I agree with the interpretation that considering how quickly they've found a hybrid unless this is the only one they'll ever fine and the scientists were incredibly lucky, it probably means they're were more of them than we realized. Which in turn supports *my* hypothesis that the later Homos (sapiens, neanderthals, denisovian) were more like our bonobo cousins than the chimps. maybe our recent aggression all stems from agriculture or something. But 50,000 years ago is the blink of an eye. this is so cool
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:23 AM on August 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
mixedmetaphors, if I had to guess, it would work like this: a long term sexual relationship is more likely to produce children than a single rape, especially in different species where there is likely to be reduced fertility. Hunter-gatherers really don't have the infrastructure to keep slaves or prisoners, so any violent sexual encounters between tribes would likely be one-offs, plus Neanderthal populations were not dense at all so accidental encounters would be rare.
So if you see hybrids, odds are likely that they are the product of pair bonds rather than inter-species conflict.
posted by tavella at 10:35 AM on August 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
So if you see hybrids, odds are likely that they are the product of pair bonds rather than inter-species conflict.
posted by tavella at 10:35 AM on August 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
"Could they possibly have been more racist than we are today? I'm not sure they could."
They could be racist in ways we cannot, since there were actual different species/races around that were still basically humans. Now we're all basically identical organisms.
posted by GoblinHoney at 12:05 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
They could be racist in ways we cannot, since there were actual different species/races around that were still basically humans. Now we're all basically identical organisms.
posted by GoblinHoney at 12:05 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
This whole thing is Planet of the Apes in reverse, a splendor of varied and enlightened primates reduced to just craven though intelligent humans.
posted by XMLicious at 12:51 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 12:51 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thanks for the good word! I'll be sure to share it on Projects when I can!
GoblinHoney, I just meant I wondered how much they genuinely hated each other. There are millions of people today who will tell you who is or isn't a real human being, and they mean it every bit as much as an anatomically modern human might have meant it about a Neanderthal. But did the anatomically modern human believe that?
posted by Countess Elena at 12:58 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
GoblinHoney, I just meant I wondered how much they genuinely hated each other. There are millions of people today who will tell you who is or isn't a real human being, and they mean it every bit as much as an anatomically modern human might have meant it about a Neanderthal. But did the anatomically modern human believe that?
posted by Countess Elena at 12:58 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Durc sat up, thanked the archaeologist for digging him out and announced "There can be only one".
Resisting the impulse to find out whether more Jean Auel/Highlander crossover fanfiction exists. It's not easy.
posted by asperity at 1:27 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Resisting the impulse to find out whether more Jean Auel/Highlander crossover fanfiction exists. It's not easy.
posted by asperity at 1:27 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
i am so mad about this thread title's ability to immediately grab my interest on something that i would already have been interested in! i will never be free of the cavefuckery!
I refuse to have shame, those books were . . . books I remember very vividly from reading as a teen. (Alas, I even remember reading the last book as an adult.)
At the time she was writing, Jean Auel couldn't have known that the children of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons would be fertile instead of sterile, as she suggested. (I have just been writing an essay about those books; Lord, I will never escape.)
There is very little I want more right now than to read your essay about Earth's Children, Countess Elena.
How would scientists come to the conclusion that they didn't have prejudices against each other and mixed freely, just based on the fact they interbred?
From googling, it seems to be the volume of interbreeding, given constraints in population overlap.
posted by jeather at 1:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I refuse to have shame, those books were . . . books I remember very vividly from reading as a teen. (Alas, I even remember reading the last book as an adult.)
At the time she was writing, Jean Auel couldn't have known that the children of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons would be fertile instead of sterile, as she suggested. (I have just been writing an essay about those books; Lord, I will never escape.)
There is very little I want more right now than to read your essay about Earth's Children, Countess Elena.
How would scientists come to the conclusion that they didn't have prejudices against each other and mixed freely, just based on the fact they interbred?
From googling, it seems to be the volume of interbreeding, given constraints in population overlap.
posted by jeather at 1:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is probably a stupid question, but what was going on in that cave? Was it a burial site, or did a dozen or so individuals just die and decompose inside there separately over a long stretch of time? Or was something big and toothy bringing them into the cave for dinner?
Why are there just tiny bits of bones? Was there some animal or humanoid chopping up the dead, or some weather/geological explanation? I would have thought that under dirt in a remote cave would be a pretty undisturbed location, even on long time scales.
Obviously not an expert in this field, just curious.
posted by bgribble at 1:50 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Why are there just tiny bits of bones? Was there some animal or humanoid chopping up the dead, or some weather/geological explanation? I would have thought that under dirt in a remote cave would be a pretty undisturbed location, even on long time scales.
Obviously not an expert in this field, just curious.
posted by bgribble at 1:50 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
I wonder about the unknown species that pushed back Y-chromosomal Adam estimates to at least 200,000 years ago.
posted by fings at 2:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by fings at 2:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
"They could be racist in ways we cannot, since there were actual different species/races around that were still basically humans."
Is absurd. The whole idea of races and racism seems to have been a pretty modern idea. Modern as in the last half of the last millennium.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Is absurd. The whole idea of races and racism seems to have been a pretty modern idea. Modern as in the last half of the last millennium.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:31 PM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
"(Alas, I even remember reading the last book as an adult.)"
Alas, I was assigned to read Clan in college. I don't actually recall what the professor expected us to get out of that assignment.
posted by litlnemo at 2:29 PM on August 30, 2018
Alas, I was assigned to read Clan in college. I don't actually recall what the professor expected us to get out of that assignment.
posted by litlnemo at 2:29 PM on August 30, 2018
pleasures
posted by poffin boffin at 3:11 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 3:11 PM on August 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
je regret
posted by poffin boffin at 3:11 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 3:11 PM on August 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
"They could be racist in ways we cannot, since there were actual different species/races around that were still basically humans."
Is absurd. The whole idea of races and racism seems to have been a pretty modern idea. Modern as in the last half of the last millennium.
I recently read Who We Are and How We Got Here by David Reich. He reports on studies of ancient and modern genetics that reveal a lot about movements of humans over the face of the earth. He quite clearly believes that "race" is a thing, based on those studies. I will not try to summarize his excellent discussion about why we should not base our notions of fairness and equality on the notion that "all groups are alike," because what if they turn out not to be in some measurable way?, other than to say if the only way we can get rid of racism is to deny the existence of 'race,' we're all fucked.
Another fascinating item: the "races" that are present today are nothing like the "races" (call them genetically distinct populations if you wish) that existed a couple thousand years ago, and those were likewise different from the groups that existed a few thousand years before that. Populations change over historical rather than geological timescales, which I think is a good reason to say that racism is bad.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 6:12 PM on September 7, 2018
Hey guys if you would like to see the thing by me you can. I should warn you, though, it is as much of a personal essay as otherwise, and I didn't have space to talk about as much of the historical context of the book as I could.
(Also, I should correct myself. Earlier in the thread, I said that Auel didn't believe that the children of Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans could have been fertile. In one of her later books, such a character did in fact have children. Auel did her homework, that was for sure.)
posted by Countess Elena at 1:52 PM on September 10, 2018
(Also, I should correct myself. Earlier in the thread, I said that Auel didn't believe that the children of Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans could have been fertile. In one of her later books, such a character did in fact have children. Auel did her homework, that was for sure.)
posted by Countess Elena at 1:52 PM on September 10, 2018
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posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:16 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]