Gilets Jaunes
December 1, 2018 10:39 AM Subscribe
In the past number of weeks a French protest movement, the gilets jaunes (yellow vests), has sprung up and amid violent clashes with police in Paris today a car near the Jeu de Paume art gallery has been set on fire.
The protests started on Facebook and were spurred by opposition to an increase in fuel taxes but has now broadened to a wider protest about inequality and poor living standards. The movement is named for the high visibility jackets that protestors wear. The movement has no clear leadership or organisational structure, making it hard for the government to interact with the movement.
On the the first major day of protest, November 17, some 280,000 people protested across France, 1 person was killed and several injured. Last Saturday also saw violent clashes in central Paris and protests across France.
The movement has also spread to Belgium, in Brussels yesterday police used water cannons and tear gas in response to protests against the government. The movement has also spread to Italy, although in that case the protestors support their national government and are protesting against the European Union.
The protests started on Facebook and were spurred by opposition to an increase in fuel taxes but has now broadened to a wider protest about inequality and poor living standards. The movement is named for the high visibility jackets that protestors wear. The movement has no clear leadership or organisational structure, making it hard for the government to interact with the movement.
On the the first major day of protest, November 17, some 280,000 people protested across France, 1 person was killed and several injured. Last Saturday also saw violent clashes in central Paris and protests across France.
The movement has also spread to Belgium, in Brussels yesterday police used water cannons and tear gas in response to protests against the government. The movement has also spread to Italy, although in that case the protestors support their national government and are protesting against the European Union.
Art gallery not on fire, for those concerned.
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 10:46 AM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by cichlid ceilidh at 10:46 AM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm shocked, shocked that Macron hasn't solved all the problems in French politics and society yet
posted by BungaDunga at 10:47 AM on December 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:47 AM on December 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
What are they protesting?
posted by runcibleshaw at 10:55 AM on December 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by runcibleshaw at 10:55 AM on December 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I can't wait until Manu tries to privatize the protests.
posted by lmfsilva at 10:55 AM on December 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by lmfsilva at 10:55 AM on December 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
What are they protesting?
Initially struck me as a suicidal demand for cheaper gas (esp. in that Macron has made it clear that he intends to reduce fuel consumption in part via taxation), but had broadened to what seems like a howl of outrage RE: broad inequality in France by a people who are used to addressing this through real-deal street protest.
In retrospect, I shouldn't have been so judgmental about the fuel issue - it may have been France's "price of wheat" moment, in which the numbers just stopped working at all for a lot of poor and working people.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:01 AM on December 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
Initially struck me as a suicidal demand for cheaper gas (esp. in that Macron has made it clear that he intends to reduce fuel consumption in part via taxation), but had broadened to what seems like a howl of outrage RE: broad inequality in France by a people who are used to addressing this through real-deal street protest.
In retrospect, I shouldn't have been so judgmental about the fuel issue - it may have been France's "price of wheat" moment, in which the numbers just stopped working at all for a lot of poor and working people.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:01 AM on December 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
This type of thing was what people were kind of predicting when Macron won - that of course you wanted him to win rather than the far right candidate, if you had to pick, but that his government would attack social programs and propose policies that increased inequality.
I know that everyone in less politically active areas jokes that the French strike because it's Tuesday, etc, but these do seem a rather bigger deal than most of the French strike waves and protests I remember.
posted by Frowner at 11:09 AM on December 1, 2018 [19 favorites]
I know that everyone in less politically active areas jokes that the French strike because it's Tuesday, etc, but these do seem a rather bigger deal than most of the French strike waves and protests I remember.
posted by Frowner at 11:09 AM on December 1, 2018 [19 favorites]
Mod note: Updated the wording of the post with OP permission to reflect that it's a car on fire, not the gallery. Carry on.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:18 AM on December 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:18 AM on December 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'd be careful about assuming the gilets jaunes are some progressive/anti-inequality movement. It's not totally clear but it sorta reads as populist/conservative. My understanding is that it's almost entirely white in nature.
posted by JPD at 11:26 AM on December 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by JPD at 11:26 AM on December 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
Yeah this has the feel of one of those camel’s back breaking moments, the actual reason was over the cost of fuel (and very conservative, one joke was that it was like if those Bikers For Trump guys actually had a direct action) but it seems to be expanding into a broader anti-Macron movement from the right and the left. Like Frowner said, this is something my French friends and people who’ve live in France have been expecting for a while ..but even they are shocked and how rapidly it’s escalated and how it seems to be absorbing people from both sides.
Anti-Macron protests have been ...pretty common for a while now. (I am a particular fan of the paper mache heads on pikes)
posted by The Whelk at 11:31 AM on December 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Anti-Macron protests have been ...pretty common for a while now. (I am a particular fan of the paper mache heads on pikes)
posted by The Whelk at 11:31 AM on December 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
This photo gallery from Libération is quite something.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:31 AM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 11:31 AM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
I've been meaning to catch up with this movement. Thank you for the good post, roolya_boolya .
posted by doctornemo at 11:39 AM on December 1, 2018
posted by doctornemo at 11:39 AM on December 1, 2018
I'd be careful about assuming the gilets jaunes are some progressive/anti-inequality movement. It's not totally clear but it sorta reads as populist/conservative. My understanding is that it's almost entirely white in nature.
From my understanding it seems to cut across traditional political lines with involved from across the political spectrum, including far left and far right. Certainly a lot of what I have seen is people protesting against economic inequality/austerity e.g the guy interviewed in Brussels from the euronews link. Without a clear leadership the driving force is pretty nebulous but it seems clear a lot of people are not happy with the status quo.
There have been some incidents of homophobia, racism and islamophobia associated with the gilets jaunes...
posted by roolya_boolya at 11:44 AM on December 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
From my understanding it seems to cut across traditional political lines with involved from across the political spectrum, including far left and far right. Certainly a lot of what I have seen is people protesting against economic inequality/austerity e.g the guy interviewed in Brussels from the euronews link. Without a clear leadership the driving force is pretty nebulous but it seems clear a lot of people are not happy with the status quo.
There have been some incidents of homophobia, racism and islamophobia associated with the gilets jaunes...
posted by roolya_boolya at 11:44 AM on December 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Doesn't that ring the populist Bell to you?
posted by JPD at 11:51 AM on December 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by JPD at 11:51 AM on December 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd be careful about assuming the gilets jaunes are some progressive/anti-inequality movement. It's not totally clear but it sorta reads as populist/conservative.
Poujadism for the 21st century. The hi-viz makes me think of White Van Man in the UK, though the poujadiste tendency in France has existed for longer and covers a broader political spectrum. (Though J-M Le Pen got his start as a Poujadiste.)
Though it's evolving, it's not so much a protest of inequality as a protest of inequality as it affects the lower middle class, which means there's an uneasy relationship (for now) between the gilets jaunes and the banlieue activists who note the longstanding racial distinction between what gets described as a "protest" in France versus a "riot" and the respective reaction of the authorities.
posted by holgate at 12:04 PM on December 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
Poujadism for the 21st century. The hi-viz makes me think of White Van Man in the UK, though the poujadiste tendency in France has existed for longer and covers a broader political spectrum. (Though J-M Le Pen got his start as a Poujadiste.)
Though it's evolving, it's not so much a protest of inequality as a protest of inequality as it affects the lower middle class, which means there's an uneasy relationship (for now) between the gilets jaunes and the banlieue activists who note the longstanding racial distinction between what gets described as a "protest" in France versus a "riot" and the respective reaction of the authorities.
posted by holgate at 12:04 PM on December 1, 2018 [12 favorites]
Doesn't that ring the populist Bell to you?
Yes absolutely but it doesn't change the fact that it's inequality and living standards that are the driving issues for many of the protestors and the people who support the movement in France (as outlined in the links in the post).
I suppose I don't necessarily see that being against economic inequality as it affects yourself is de facto linked with other progressive beliefs. And it's clearly a very disparate movement and I'm sure it will morph more before it's done.
posted by roolya_boolya at 12:06 PM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yes absolutely but it doesn't change the fact that it's inequality and living standards that are the driving issues for many of the protestors and the people who support the movement in France (as outlined in the links in the post).
I suppose I don't necessarily see that being against economic inequality as it affects yourself is de facto linked with other progressive beliefs. And it's clearly a very disparate movement and I'm sure it will morph more before it's done.
posted by roolya_boolya at 12:06 PM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
The reflective vests they are wearing are required equipment in all motor vehicles on French roads. Be sure to pack one for each passenger on your next road trip through France!
posted by St. Oops at 12:41 PM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by St. Oops at 12:41 PM on December 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
I would pretty much assume they are nazis until a clear indication is given otherwise, these days.
posted by Artw at 1:03 PM on December 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:03 PM on December 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
From this article (french, Liberation) about the ongoing riots:
On a wall, the far right celtic cross and "ACAB" have been tagged next to each other...
posted by haemanu at 2:52 PM on December 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
On a wall, the far right celtic cross and "ACAB" have been tagged next to each other...
posted by haemanu at 2:52 PM on December 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm not a social scientist, but it seems to me that austerity is a tool used to turn leftists into conservatives.
posted by Yowser at 12:40 AM on December 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Yowser at 12:40 AM on December 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'd be careful about assuming the gilets jaunes are some progressive/anti-inequality movement. It's not totally clear but it sorta reads as populist/conservative. My understanding is that it's almost entirely white in nature.
The French GJ is certainly a mixed bunch, but the above definitely holds for those claiming to be the Italian offshoot, quoted in the linked Guardian piece. Here, apart from an an endorsement from a more traditional, minor leghista group, there's one main Facebook page laying claim to the gilet jaune concept, using the iconic visibility of the French protest to push their own flat-tax/sovreignist agenda (and, given that initial support was rallied among truckdriver groups, a call to do away with highway tolls). It's being read here as a revival of the Forconi movement, which grew more or less spontaneously five years ago, peaking (and then imploding) in 2013.
Italy is currently in a state of social shock, stunned between a paralyzed, fractured left and the unabashedly reactionary, neo-fascist strongman government. With their current pro-Salvini positioning, there is a chance these GJ knockoffs might actually gather more forconist steam this time around. The Progressive International they are not.
posted by progosk at 1:57 AM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
The French GJ is certainly a mixed bunch, but the above definitely holds for those claiming to be the Italian offshoot, quoted in the linked Guardian piece. Here, apart from an an endorsement from a more traditional, minor leghista group, there's one main Facebook page laying claim to the gilet jaune concept, using the iconic visibility of the French protest to push their own flat-tax/sovreignist agenda (and, given that initial support was rallied among truckdriver groups, a call to do away with highway tolls). It's being read here as a revival of the Forconi movement, which grew more or less spontaneously five years ago, peaking (and then imploding) in 2013.
Italy is currently in a state of social shock, stunned between a paralyzed, fractured left and the unabashedly reactionary, neo-fascist strongman government. With their current pro-Salvini positioning, there is a chance these GJ knockoffs might actually gather more forconist steam this time around. The Progressive International they are not.
posted by progosk at 1:57 AM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Luckily, one of the world's foremost Twitter experts on the Middle West and Occident has stepped in to explain. He's based a short train ride across the border from Paris in the ancient bustling city of London.
posted by ambrosen at 5:30 AM on December 2, 2018 [24 favorites]
An organic, leaderless protest movement with no clear ideology has emerged in France. I've been waiting for this since 2011. Let me explain the French Spring to you.KarlreMarks really is truly an expert on these regions. (And also an architect by profession.)
Firstly, why the colour yellow? In traditional French culture, yellow represents the Mediterranean regions of France which always felt oppressed by Paris. These protests represent ancient regional grievances.
Secondly, why the vests? In the French psyche, the lack of arms represents 'helplessness'. The protests are about marginalisation and the impotence felt by ordinary people.
A respected Lebanese anthropologist has studied the protests and concluded that the burning of cars represents 'anger'. These protesters appear to be unhappy about something, and it's more than just typical French grumpiness.
The best advice we can give the French is 'that's not really tabboulé, it's just a weird salad you call tabboulé'
In overturning cars the yellow vests are symbolically overturning the entire Cartesian premise of France. This is not merely against the authoritarian Macron but a revolt against the centuries old republican order.
Experts are already warning of a 'domino effect' leading the protests to spread from France to neighbouring countries. In all of this it's not clear how we in the East should respond, aside from calling on the French authorities to respect the right to protest.
Lastly, and I say this with supreme delight as a Middle Eastern person, it's clearly all about the oil.
posted by ambrosen at 5:30 AM on December 2, 2018 [24 favorites]
Although this obviously links with recent ‘populism’, it also fits into a distinctive Parisian tradition of protest going back through ‘68 and the turbulent 19th century to the sans-culottes and maybe even the Fronde? I was sort of charmed to hear that they were once again observing the old tradition of digging up the cobblestones to throw at the police (but why are there still cobblestones in Paris?).
I reckon this is partly a protest against neoliberalism, partly against the smug liberal consensus. In America, those are opposites, in France Macron (who only got elected by a fluke) sort of represents both, I think, though I know mefites will have genuine cognitive difficulty with anything that doesn’t map to American experience.
posted by Segundus at 6:45 AM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I reckon this is partly a protest against neoliberalism, partly against the smug liberal consensus. In America, those are opposites, in France Macron (who only got elected by a fluke) sort of represents both, I think, though I know mefites will have genuine cognitive difficulty with anything that doesn’t map to American experience.
posted by Segundus at 6:45 AM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Funny thing is, even in satire, he's not at all off the mark:
- those vests are standard issue "alert" yellow - but a majority of protesters certainly carry resentment toward the affluence of the Parisian "elite";
- as a signaling attribute for the protests, armless or not, the vests do symbolize a cry for help/assistance in an emergency;
- anger vs. grumpy - pourquoi pas les deux? :-)
- insofar as Macron himself plays the supreme républicain, it is very much all aimed at him as the embodiment of the established order;
and ultimately, considering that it was kicked off by a rise in taxes on gasoline, it totally is about an economy still predicated on crude oil!
posted by progosk at 6:46 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
- those vests are standard issue "alert" yellow - but a majority of protesters certainly carry resentment toward the affluence of the Parisian "elite";
- as a signaling attribute for the protests, armless or not, the vests do symbolize a cry for help/assistance in an emergency;
- anger vs. grumpy - pourquoi pas les deux? :-)
- insofar as Macron himself plays the supreme républicain, it is very much all aimed at him as the embodiment of the established order;
and ultimately, considering that it was kicked off by a rise in taxes on gasoline, it totally is about an economy still predicated on crude oil!
posted by progosk at 6:46 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
This story suggests it’s less a political movement than an anti-political one.
If it’s true that the group rejected its own members who tried to negotiate, then it seems like it will descend into violence for its own sake.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:52 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
If it’s true that the group rejected its own members who tried to negotiate, then it seems like it will descend into violence for its own sake.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:52 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'd love to read some more depthful analysis of these actions from a sociologist or historian with context about suburban and rural working class movements in France.
From the outside it seems to be the latest in an explosion of resentment about wealth inequality, although the fuel tax aspect is, while understandable given the unequal impact, also frightening and sobering re the mass scale social reorganization we'll need to survive climate change.
If anyone has links that go deeper into contextualizing this than the news stories I'd be very interested to read them.
posted by latkes at 7:08 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
From the outside it seems to be the latest in an explosion of resentment about wealth inequality, although the fuel tax aspect is, while understandable given the unequal impact, also frightening and sobering re the mass scale social reorganization we'll need to survive climate change.
If anyone has links that go deeper into contextualizing this than the news stories I'd be very interested to read them.
posted by latkes at 7:08 AM on December 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
This piece from a French socialist provides some recent context - cuts to pensions, public transit and other social programs, getting rid of wealth taxes, a move to a flat tax on capital income, the quirk that France uses diesel far more widely than most other countries so this kind of tax hits very widely - and describes the response by unions and trade organizations to the gilets jaunes (trade orgs and right-wing groups against, big left cautiously against, small left and Melenchon pro-). It also claims that a big chunk of the tax revenue will be used to make up for the budget deficit caused by cutting taxes for the rich - it's not all supporting climate initiatives.
As I understand it, what used to be a very strong though particularly rigid welfare state has been cut and cut and cut, especially since the early 2000s. My sense is that in the US, we don't really understand the impact of the cuts that have happened since the financial crisis in Europe, because the US is not structured by any real social safety net, and so even when we see the cuts themselves, it's hard to grasp the impact when a prop that society has been organized around is knocked away.
As far as these being climate taxes: what I'm seeing is that there's going to be a push to make the poor bear the cost of fixing climate change. As the linked article points out, you would think that if you wanted to discourage the use of diesel by low income people who drive, you would build more transit - especially since a lot of the people with long commutes have shitty jobs and have to live on the periphery because the center is expensive .
But this is why neoliberal regimes break down - they can't respond to this kind of situation, where there is a truly mixed selection of demands. A non-terrible government would think, "well, we don't want a rightist movement, let's prevent that and split this movement apart by providing services, which will cool out everyone who isn't actually a committed right wing activist". But Macron can't do that, because his whole deal is enriching the center/upper class/cities/insiders while looting the periphery. The tools for fixing the social problem would require taxing the rich, providing services and restoring the welfare state, and they'll never do that.
The linked article's takeaway seems to be that this movement has attracted both the right and the left along with a great mass of not-especially aligned people, and has the potential to crystallize as a right-wing movement if the left doesn't step up.
There are some other linked articles about the recent situation in France.
posted by Frowner at 7:36 AM on December 2, 2018 [29 favorites]
As I understand it, what used to be a very strong though particularly rigid welfare state has been cut and cut and cut, especially since the early 2000s. My sense is that in the US, we don't really understand the impact of the cuts that have happened since the financial crisis in Europe, because the US is not structured by any real social safety net, and so even when we see the cuts themselves, it's hard to grasp the impact when a prop that society has been organized around is knocked away.
As far as these being climate taxes: what I'm seeing is that there's going to be a push to make the poor bear the cost of fixing climate change. As the linked article points out, you would think that if you wanted to discourage the use of diesel by low income people who drive, you would build more transit - especially since a lot of the people with long commutes have shitty jobs and have to live on the periphery because the center is expensive .
But this is why neoliberal regimes break down - they can't respond to this kind of situation, where there is a truly mixed selection of demands. A non-terrible government would think, "well, we don't want a rightist movement, let's prevent that and split this movement apart by providing services, which will cool out everyone who isn't actually a committed right wing activist". But Macron can't do that, because his whole deal is enriching the center/upper class/cities/insiders while looting the periphery. The tools for fixing the social problem would require taxing the rich, providing services and restoring the welfare state, and they'll never do that.
The linked article's takeaway seems to be that this movement has attracted both the right and the left along with a great mass of not-especially aligned people, and has the potential to crystallize as a right-wing movement if the left doesn't step up.
There are some other linked articles about the recent situation in France.
posted by Frowner at 7:36 AM on December 2, 2018 [29 favorites]
Meanwhile, I just paid $1.96/gal. for gasoline in Ohio last night, and felt like starting a protest about fuel being too inexpensive here! What year is it again? It made me feel a bit sick the whole time I was at the pump.
posted by woofferton at 7:38 AM on December 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by woofferton at 7:38 AM on December 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
As far as these being climate taxes: what I'm seeing is that there's going to be a push to make the poor bear the cost of fixing climate change
Oh
Oh man
How fucking dumb do you have to be to think that will go peacefully
posted by schadenfrau at 7:40 AM on December 2, 2018
Oh
Oh man
How fucking dumb do you have to be to think that will go peacefully
posted by schadenfrau at 7:40 AM on December 2, 2018
To be fair Macron is ....extremly dumb. He’s like if Andrew Coumo was head of state.
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 AM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 AM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also 👍 to Frowner for basically describing why the post war order is in shambles and fascist movements are on the rise cause seemingly no one can even mitigate the crisis of capitalism we’re living in cause they imagine not giving more money to the rich.
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 AM on December 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 AM on December 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
I mean I've met Macron in a group meeting. He's overly ambitious and craven but he's not dumb. Ive met probably 100 enarque over the years and while I generally have very little positive to say about them the dumb things they do are out of arrogance not lack of intellectual capacity..
Andrew Cuomo is dumb.
posted by JPD at 8:13 AM on December 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
Andrew Cuomo is dumb.
posted by JPD at 8:13 AM on December 2, 2018 [11 favorites]
any carbon tax/costing is regressive by definition unfortunately. Also my understanding is that these folks mostly come from rural France, so not sure public transit is the issue.
posted by JPD at 8:19 AM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by JPD at 8:19 AM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Another thing to point out - diesel price is so important in France because of government policy to support the local auto industry - whose only real competence had historically been diesel passenger cars. As a result the French government has structurally supported cheap diesel prices and tacitly subsidized diesel car purchases.
posted by JPD at 8:52 AM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by JPD at 8:52 AM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
That gallery of photos is illustrative; I see mostly white guys, and no women at all. I don't think this is a cross-factional uprising.
posted by suelac at 9:20 AM on December 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by suelac at 9:20 AM on December 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
I personally feel kind of frustrated when I read dismissals of this based on viewing a handful of photos.
Having been to a few gathering that could be classified in the middle range between protest and riot, I'm not surprised to see young men at low risk of longtime legal repercussions (ie white) are the ones at the front of a scene of street shutdowns and setting fires. Young men more likely to break stuff, news at 11. But those photos don't tell us much about the context or ideology behind the actions. Personally, not being in Europe and having no super direct ties to this, I have to assume I just don't know much about what's going on and I'd like to learn more.
Clearly this is extremely resonant for French folks. Why? Could regressive values play a role? Seems likely. Could decades of ever increasing income inequality and unyielding policies of austerity that are crushing the social safety net be part of it? Initial analysis says yes.
So some young white men set a car on fire. That doesn't tell me much. I look forward to learning more.
posted by latkes at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Having been to a few gathering that could be classified in the middle range between protest and riot, I'm not surprised to see young men at low risk of longtime legal repercussions (ie white) are the ones at the front of a scene of street shutdowns and setting fires. Young men more likely to break stuff, news at 11. But those photos don't tell us much about the context or ideology behind the actions. Personally, not being in Europe and having no super direct ties to this, I have to assume I just don't know much about what's going on and I'd like to learn more.
Clearly this is extremely resonant for French folks. Why? Could regressive values play a role? Seems likely. Could decades of ever increasing income inequality and unyielding policies of austerity that are crushing the social safety net be part of it? Initial analysis says yes.
So some young white men set a car on fire. That doesn't tell me much. I look forward to learning more.
posted by latkes at 9:52 AM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Mixed bag of translated pieces from various left-communist / anarcho sources -
Picture there is that its very much in flux, but with an initial impetus that's distinctly more populist than class focused and all kinds of groups looking to mobilise around that impetus.
posted by Caractacus at 10:25 AM on December 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Picture there is that its very much in flux, but with an initial impetus that's distinctly more populist than class focused and all kinds of groups looking to mobilise around that impetus.
posted by Caractacus at 10:25 AM on December 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I made this post because I encountered the GJ protest here in Brussels on Friday. I walked out of the metro at lunchtime on to a tense scene (bangers going off, rocks being thrown) with a few hundred protestors and the police on high alert (they had closed off all but one entrances to the metro and were there with riot shields and dogs). At that corner of the protest it was indeed almost all (young, aggressive) men and I got out of there very quickly. By the time I got back to my desk there were pictures on Twitter of police cars burning right where I had exited the metro station.
Colleagues later told me that the Flemish far right party, among others, were involved in the protest. So I don't doubt that the far right is involved in and taking advantage of the protests. Neither would it surprise me if they were the instigators of the violence.
But I think it's also worth considering that the movement springs from a broader dissatisfaction. There is a danger that the extremists will be able to leverage broader grievences to promote their own agenda. I fear they will use it to cause disruption in the run up to the European elections next May. I can't help but think of this man and shudder.
posted by roolya_boolya at 11:48 AM on December 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Colleagues later told me that the Flemish far right party, among others, were involved in the protest. So I don't doubt that the far right is involved in and taking advantage of the protests. Neither would it surprise me if they were the instigators of the violence.
But I think it's also worth considering that the movement springs from a broader dissatisfaction. There is a danger that the extremists will be able to leverage broader grievences to promote their own agenda. I fear they will use it to cause disruption in the run up to the European elections next May. I can't help but think of this man and shudder.
posted by roolya_boolya at 11:48 AM on December 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
It's also good to remember the fascist takeover of Brazil started, in part, by a broad populist revolt against rising public transit fares that the far right as able to manipulate into power.
posted by The Whelk at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2018 [17 favorites]
But I think it's also worth considering that the movement springs from a broader dissatisfaction. There is a danger that the extremists will be able to leverage broader grievences to promote their own agenda.
Isn’t this literally always how it happens? Like, every time?
posted by schadenfrau at 12:43 PM on December 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Isn’t this literally always how it happens? Like, every time?
posted by schadenfrau at 12:43 PM on December 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
To be fair Macron is ....extremly dumb. He’s like if Andrew Coumo was head of state.
He's not dumb. He just has that very liberal tendency to think "what are they going to do, vote for a fascist? ha ha ha" any time they announce cuts and austerity because ultimately their own will be shielded from consequences, and capital would be quick to side with fascists.
I don't think this is a good thing at this time, and probably won't be. As much enjoyment as I'd take from seeing Manu and his cohort of radical centrists who believe he's the saviour of European democracy eat shit, I'm perfectly aware the current conjuncture is for this to result in a more reactionary outcome than a progressive one.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
He's not dumb. He just has that very liberal tendency to think "what are they going to do, vote for a fascist? ha ha ha" any time they announce cuts and austerity because ultimately their own will be shielded from consequences, and capital would be quick to side with fascists.
I don't think this is a good thing at this time, and probably won't be. As much enjoyment as I'd take from seeing Manu and his cohort of radical centrists who believe he's the saviour of European democracy eat shit, I'm perfectly aware the current conjuncture is for this to result in a more reactionary outcome than a progressive one.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Thread with various photos and videos.
One photo of some GJ protesters unfurling a celtic cross flag; another, rather surprising video with riot police taking off their helmets as a deescalation technique (can anyone identify the flag? Hollow yellow maltese cross on red background. Could be a French region or municipality?); and scroll to what’s currently the end for your satisfying dose of French antifa KOing fascist leader (both groups wearing hi-vis).
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:14 PM on December 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
One photo of some GJ protesters unfurling a celtic cross flag; another, rather surprising video with riot police taking off their helmets as a deescalation technique (can anyone identify the flag? Hollow yellow maltese cross on red background. Could be a French region or municipality?); and scroll to what’s currently the end for your satisfying dose of French antifa KOing fascist leader (both groups wearing hi-vis).
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:14 PM on December 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean, weren't there far right and neo-Nazis at Euromaidan as well? The question is how many are there.
posted by Apocryphon at 7:12 PM on December 2, 2018
posted by Apocryphon at 7:12 PM on December 2, 2018
I mean, weren't there far right and neo-Nazis at Euromaidan as well? The question is how many are there.
Not sure if this was aimed at me or was a more general comment, but FWIW I agree with others in this thread that the GJ movement is primarily a protest at declining living standards in a country with a strong social safety net and worker’s protections (and a low threshold for direct action) and a leader who’s trying to pull some classic 90s/00s neoliberal deregulation.
That’s to say that it’s political - it’s a protest at the government, so of course it is - but it doesn’t appear to be particularly ideological, except inasmuch as it reflects the tendencies of the rural, white, lower middle class who are protesting.
I’m sure that radical groups on both the left and right were all salivating at the prospect of joining in, though, and maybe coopting some of the anger for themselves. As you say, the question is how successfully they’re doing that.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 7:58 PM on December 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Not sure if this was aimed at me or was a more general comment, but FWIW I agree with others in this thread that the GJ movement is primarily a protest at declining living standards in a country with a strong social safety net and worker’s protections (and a low threshold for direct action) and a leader who’s trying to pull some classic 90s/00s neoliberal deregulation.
That’s to say that it’s political - it’s a protest at the government, so of course it is - but it doesn’t appear to be particularly ideological, except inasmuch as it reflects the tendencies of the rural, white, lower middle class who are protesting.
I’m sure that radical groups on both the left and right were all salivating at the prospect of joining in, though, and maybe coopting some of the anger for themselves. As you say, the question is how successfully they’re doing that.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 7:58 PM on December 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's the flag of Toulouse / Languedoc / Occitania. It might well have been co-opted by the right, but maybe more likely it was bought to take to TFC games and seemed like the thing to take along to a protest.
I'm not up to date on the post-GWoT taxonomy of les flics, but those look like ordinary cops in riot gear (i.e. Police Nationale, not CRS, nor Gendarmes Mobiles). The bloke whose mates abandon him to a (somewhat half-hearted) kicking from the crowd seems to be from the same organisation as those in the helmet-doffing video (many of whom have blacked out and / or removed their identifying badges, which makes me very reluctant to thing the "de-escalation" was their idea).
posted by GeckoDundee at 8:08 PM on December 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm not up to date on the post-GWoT taxonomy of les flics, but those look like ordinary cops in riot gear (i.e. Police Nationale, not CRS, nor Gendarmes Mobiles). The bloke whose mates abandon him to a (somewhat half-hearted) kicking from the crowd seems to be from the same organisation as those in the helmet-doffing video (many of whom have blacked out and / or removed their identifying badges, which makes me very reluctant to thing the "de-escalation" was their idea).
posted by GeckoDundee at 8:08 PM on December 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
Thanks, GeckoDundee!
posted by chappell, ambrose at 8:13 PM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by chappell, ambrose at 8:13 PM on December 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
No worries. That video was shot in Pau, so the flag might be a little more parochial than a tricolour, but it isn't especially out of place.
posted by GeckoDundee at 8:58 PM on December 2, 2018
posted by GeckoDundee at 8:58 PM on December 2, 2018
JPD: "any carbon tax/costing is regressive by definition unfortunately."
Sure. Which is why you put some of the revenue to climate change, and the return the rest progressively.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:19 PM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sure. Which is why you put some of the revenue to climate change, and the return the rest progressively.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:19 PM on December 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Jeremy Harding (a contributing editor at the LRB who lives in France) shares his impresssions of the movement:
A gilet jaune in her twenties told me she detested the state’s attention to ‘immigrants’ when indigenous poor and homeless were so obviously vulnerable. Another, in her thirties, argued that the French benefits system served the unemployed so generously that she was losing faith in her ill-paid temping on the hourly minimum wage (€9.98 or £8.80, better than the UK equivalent). Their comrade – thin, well-kempt, approaching forty – spoke eloquently of his disdain for metropolitan technocrats and politicians. Immigrants, scroungers, politicians … we might as well have been in Brexit Britain, the Lega’s Lombardy or small-town Hungary. Left-wing parties will find these attitudes challenging, if the gilets jaunes eventually engage in dialogue with the political class. I suspect they may, and I also suspect that many activists will be drawn to the right, which is why the movement, now and for the foreseeable future, leaves the Elysée and the government dangerously exposed.posted by chappell, ambrose at 3:08 AM on December 3, 2018 [13 favorites]
Macron has embarked on an admirable policy to mitigate climate change but he’s failed catastrophically to heed the advice of his former environment minister, Nicolas Hulot, who resigned in August. Hulot said the project would only work with grants, attainable tax incentives and green job creation for less advantaged sectors of the population. Not nearly enough of this is in place, or even in the offing.
When your demands include free parking in City centers and camps for the brown people....
posted by JPD at 4:45 AM on December 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by JPD at 4:45 AM on December 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
Has the idea of a debt strike gotten any traction in Europe?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:36 AM on December 3, 2018
posted by schadenfrau at 7:36 AM on December 3, 2018
High-school students are stepping up their part in this protest moment.
posted by progosk at 8:40 AM on December 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by progosk at 8:40 AM on December 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
A 'yellow vest' fake news paradise
It’s quite reasonable to note that (as with any breaking news story nowadays) people will be intentionally twisting the facts on the ground to fit their narrative, inventing stories, and misattributing images and videos from elsewhere, deliberately or not.
But this article mixes those very sensible points with a healthy dose of downplaying a major news story. I’m glad that the reporter isn’t personally affected despite living in Paris, but if e.g. a large group of midwesterners travelled to NYC to beat up the cops and then set fire to 120 cars in Times Square, I think that would be a genuine story, regardless of whether particular individual journalists in Brooklyn were caught up in it.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 12:43 PM on December 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
It’s quite reasonable to note that (as with any breaking news story nowadays) people will be intentionally twisting the facts on the ground to fit their narrative, inventing stories, and misattributing images and videos from elsewhere, deliberately or not.
But this article mixes those very sensible points with a healthy dose of downplaying a major news story. I’m glad that the reporter isn’t personally affected despite living in Paris, but if e.g. a large group of midwesterners travelled to NYC to beat up the cops and then set fire to 120 cars in Times Square, I think that would be a genuine story, regardless of whether particular individual journalists in Brooklyn were caught up in it.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 12:43 PM on December 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
But this article mixes those very sensible points with a healthy dose of downplaying a major news story.
I wouldn't see the article as downplaying so much as pushing back against sensationalism. Consider the two quotes below:
The violence is real. The anger from part of the working class is also real...
...In fact, most of the “yellow vest” demonstrations in France have been quiet and peaceful and located in remote places. It is a deep and complicated move, not a clickbait story with a shocking picture.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:34 PM on December 3, 2018
I wouldn't see the article as downplaying so much as pushing back against sensationalism. Consider the two quotes below:
The violence is real. The anger from part of the working class is also real...
...In fact, most of the “yellow vest” demonstrations in France have been quiet and peaceful and located in remote places. It is a deep and complicated move, not a clickbait story with a shocking picture.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:34 PM on December 3, 2018
I'm going off of this list here.
When I look at that list, I wonder about a couple of things: First, it's not actually attributed to anyone or linked anywhere - the attribution is to unspecified spokespeople, so while presumably it's something that some protesters put together, it's not clear to me how representative it is. Second, I'm not totally sure about the translation in terms of refugee camps. (I've appended the translation as I'd do it - with a little internet assistance - but I haven't actually used colloquial French for years and years so may be interpreting it wrong, let me know what you think.)
In any case, could the immigration clauses might come from a group of people with different politics and concerns, since several of them call for improved treatment of refugees and several of them reiterate old "to live in France means to assimilate in this very specific way" center-conservative ideas?
As to "the UN should work with France to create refugee camps", I feel like that could go either way - it's something I've heard people say in the sense of "put people in refugee camps so that they don't come here" but also in the sense of "there should be UN-run refugee camps so that people are not making dangerous crossings or living hungry and rough without any documents; refugee camps are needed so that people's asylum claims can be processed".
QUE LES CAUSES DES MIGRATIONS FORCÉES SOIENT TRAITÉES.
That the causes of forced migration be addressed
QUE LES DEMANDEURS D'ASILES SOIENT BIEN TRAITÉS.
That those requesting asylum be well-treated
NOUS LEUR DEVONS LE LOGEMENT, LA SÉCURITÉ, L'ALIMENTATION AINSI QUE L'ÉDUCATION POUR LES MINEURS. TRAVAILLEZ AVEC L'ONU POUR QUE DES CAMPS D'ACCUEIL SOIENT OUVERTS DANS DE NOMBREUX PAYS DU MONDE, DANS L'ATTENTE DU RÉSULTAT DE LA DEMANDE D'ASILE.
We must have lodging, security, food and also education for minors (minor refugees, I assume). [The state should] work with the UN to open refugee camps in many countries with the expectation of increased need.
QUE LES DÉBOUTÉS DU DROIT D'ASILE SOIENT RECONDUITS DANS LEUR PAYS D'ORIGINE.
That asylum rights be given in their country of origin (is this a reference to refugees getting asylum in the first country they reach? I know there's a lot of issues over this, some of which are racist and some of which are procedural.)
QU'UNE RÉELLE POLITIQUE D'INTÉGRATION SOIT MISE EN OEUVRE. VIVRE EN FRANCE IMPLIQUE DE DEVENIR FRANÇAIS (COURS DE LANGUE FRANÇAISE, COURS D'HISTOIRE DE LA FRANCE ET COURS D'ÉDUCATION CIVIQUE AVEC UNE CERTIFICATION À LA FIN DU PARCOURS).
That a real politics of integration should be put in place. To live in France involves becoming French (French language courses, French history courses and courses in civic education with certification when completed.)
As to the free parking, the one thing I've seen over and over on reporting about this is that the people hardest hit by the tax are people who work shitty jobs in the center and commute from the periphery, where there is no reliable public transit. If you absolutely must have a car in order to work a precarious job in the center, I think that demanding free parking is a reasonable class-based demand even if it's not actually a very good solution to the problem.
The other items on the list seem pretty standard - old age pensions should be indexed to inflation, an end to austerity, an end to presidential indemnity, stop the closure of local post offices, hospitals and other services, extend state children's services, rent control, jobs for the unemployed, re-nationalize gas and electricity. I think that any of those demands could certainly be basically fascist, if the way French people are intended to read them is "give these benefits to white people only" or "these benefits should be administered in a ruthless and intrusive way by a state with huge punitive powers", so it might be that these all have a nudge-nudge wink-wink right wing quality that isn't obvious outside of France.
posted by Frowner at 2:20 PM on December 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
When I look at that list, I wonder about a couple of things: First, it's not actually attributed to anyone or linked anywhere - the attribution is to unspecified spokespeople, so while presumably it's something that some protesters put together, it's not clear to me how representative it is. Second, I'm not totally sure about the translation in terms of refugee camps. (I've appended the translation as I'd do it - with a little internet assistance - but I haven't actually used colloquial French for years and years so may be interpreting it wrong, let me know what you think.)
In any case, could the immigration clauses might come from a group of people with different politics and concerns, since several of them call for improved treatment of refugees and several of them reiterate old "to live in France means to assimilate in this very specific way" center-conservative ideas?
As to "the UN should work with France to create refugee camps", I feel like that could go either way - it's something I've heard people say in the sense of "put people in refugee camps so that they don't come here" but also in the sense of "there should be UN-run refugee camps so that people are not making dangerous crossings or living hungry and rough without any documents; refugee camps are needed so that people's asylum claims can be processed".
QUE LES CAUSES DES MIGRATIONS FORCÉES SOIENT TRAITÉES.
That the causes of forced migration be addressed
QUE LES DEMANDEURS D'ASILES SOIENT BIEN TRAITÉS.
That those requesting asylum be well-treated
NOUS LEUR DEVONS LE LOGEMENT, LA SÉCURITÉ, L'ALIMENTATION AINSI QUE L'ÉDUCATION POUR LES MINEURS. TRAVAILLEZ AVEC L'ONU POUR QUE DES CAMPS D'ACCUEIL SOIENT OUVERTS DANS DE NOMBREUX PAYS DU MONDE, DANS L'ATTENTE DU RÉSULTAT DE LA DEMANDE D'ASILE.
We must have lodging, security, food and also education for minors (minor refugees, I assume). [The state should] work with the UN to open refugee camps in many countries with the expectation of increased need.
QUE LES DÉBOUTÉS DU DROIT D'ASILE SOIENT RECONDUITS DANS LEUR PAYS D'ORIGINE.
That asylum rights be given in their country of origin (is this a reference to refugees getting asylum in the first country they reach? I know there's a lot of issues over this, some of which are racist and some of which are procedural.)
QU'UNE RÉELLE POLITIQUE D'INTÉGRATION SOIT MISE EN OEUVRE. VIVRE EN FRANCE IMPLIQUE DE DEVENIR FRANÇAIS (COURS DE LANGUE FRANÇAISE, COURS D'HISTOIRE DE LA FRANCE ET COURS D'ÉDUCATION CIVIQUE AVEC UNE CERTIFICATION À LA FIN DU PARCOURS).
That a real politics of integration should be put in place. To live in France involves becoming French (French language courses, French history courses and courses in civic education with certification when completed.)
As to the free parking, the one thing I've seen over and over on reporting about this is that the people hardest hit by the tax are people who work shitty jobs in the center and commute from the periphery, where there is no reliable public transit. If you absolutely must have a car in order to work a precarious job in the center, I think that demanding free parking is a reasonable class-based demand even if it's not actually a very good solution to the problem.
The other items on the list seem pretty standard - old age pensions should be indexed to inflation, an end to austerity, an end to presidential indemnity, stop the closure of local post offices, hospitals and other services, extend state children's services, rent control, jobs for the unemployed, re-nationalize gas and electricity. I think that any of those demands could certainly be basically fascist, if the way French people are intended to read them is "give these benefits to white people only" or "these benefits should be administered in a ruthless and intrusive way by a state with huge punitive powers", so it might be that these all have a nudge-nudge wink-wink right wing quality that isn't obvious outside of France.
posted by Frowner at 2:20 PM on December 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
Concerns about immigration are precisely why I would - if I were in charge - provide anti-austerity measures immediately, because it would peel off people who actually, actively don't want immigration from people who are mistakenly anxious about the ability to take in and integrate refugees, people who accept immigration but are going along with the movement out of other concerns and people who are simply not that politically sophisticated. I think that states play a huge role in creating and normalizing xenophobia, and yet it's often framed as the "natural" state of the working class. Like, I think the French state does an incredibly terrible job - you can talk about laicite all you want, but the tone the state has set has been anti-Muslim in a way that is obviously, obviously never going to do anything but fuel xenophobia.
posted by Frowner at 2:37 PM on December 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 2:37 PM on December 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
NOUS LEUR DEVONS LE LOGEMENT, LA SÉCURITÉ, L'ALIMENTATION AINSI QUE L'ÉDUCATION POUR LES MINEURS. TRAVAILLEZ AVEC L'ONU POUR QUE DES CAMPS D'ACCUEIL SOIENT OUVERTS DANS DE NOMBREUX PAYS DU MONDE, DANS L'ATTENTE DU RÉSULTAT DE LA DEMANDE D'ASILE.
We must have lodging, security, food and also education for minors (minor refugees, I assume). [The state should] work with the UN to open refugee camps in many countries with the expectation of increased need.
More accurately: We owe them housing, security, food and education for those under 18. The government must work with the UN to open refugee camps in all the countries (of origin) for them to await the granting of their asylum requests in. (So a mixture of "help them at home" and NIMBY.)
QUE LES DÉBOUTÉS DU DROIT D'ASILE SOIENT RECONDUITS DANS LEUR PAYS D'ORIGINE.
That asylum rights be given in their country of origin (is this a reference to refugees getting asylum in the first country they reach? I know there's a lot of issues over this, some of which are racist and some of which are procedural.)
No, rather: That those refugees whose request for asylum has been rejected be deported back to their country of origin.
posted by progosk at 2:43 PM on December 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
We must have lodging, security, food and also education for minors (minor refugees, I assume). [The state should] work with the UN to open refugee camps in many countries with the expectation of increased need.
More accurately: We owe them housing, security, food and education for those under 18. The government must work with the UN to open refugee camps in all the countries (of origin) for them to await the granting of their asylum requests in. (So a mixture of "help them at home" and NIMBY.)
QUE LES DÉBOUTÉS DU DROIT D'ASILE SOIENT RECONDUITS DANS LEUR PAYS D'ORIGINE.
That asylum rights be given in their country of origin (is this a reference to refugees getting asylum in the first country they reach? I know there's a lot of issues over this, some of which are racist and some of which are procedural.)
No, rather: That those refugees whose request for asylum has been rejected be deported back to their country of origin.
posted by progosk at 2:43 PM on December 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm going off of this list here.
That's what happens when Facebook comments become sentient.
1. We want ponies.
2. No taxes on ponies.
3. We want flying ponies.
4. Ponies should be free.
5. We want flying ponies with frickin' laser beams attached.
6. Every 6 year-old should get a pony.
7. Foreigners shouldn't get ponies.
8. No taxes on ponies.
9. Ponies should come in different colours.
10. Ponies are mammals.
11. Death to brown ponies.
13. Vets are too expensive.
14. Ponies should speak French.
15. No taxes on ponies.
Etc.
posted by elgilito at 2:47 PM on December 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's what happens when Facebook comments become sentient.
1. We want ponies.
2. No taxes on ponies.
3. We want flying ponies.
4. Ponies should be free.
5. We want flying ponies with frickin' laser beams attached.
6. Every 6 year-old should get a pony.
7. Foreigners shouldn't get ponies.
8. No taxes on ponies.
9. Ponies should come in different colours.
10. Ponies are mammals.
11. Death to brown ponies.
13. Vets are too expensive.
14. Ponies should speak French.
15. No taxes on ponies.
Etc.
posted by elgilito at 2:47 PM on December 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
Another article from on the ground: J. Lichfield (Guardian), Never before have I seen blind anger like this on the streets of Paris - The factors that gave rise to this weekend’s shockingly violent riots will not be easily addressed. A recurrence is likely.
posted by progosk at 12:24 AM on December 4, 2018
posted by progosk at 12:24 AM on December 4, 2018
French government 'to suspend fuel tax increase'.
posted by roolya_boolya at 12:30 AM on December 4, 2018
posted by roolya_boolya at 12:30 AM on December 4, 2018
This might be a bit conspiracy laden, but what we've seen over the past two years I would not be surprised if at least some parts (mainly the boosting on Twitter by Russian aligned accounts) are true.
THREAD: There are indications that the "Yellow Vest Movement" in France is the pointy end of a Russian active-measures campaign against Emmanuel Macron.
posted by PenDevil at 1:04 AM on December 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
THREAD: There are indications that the "Yellow Vest Movement" in France is the pointy end of a Russian active-measures campaign against Emmanuel Macron.
posted by PenDevil at 1:04 AM on December 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
That reaches so much it got back in time and saved Eder's goal back in 2016.
I am positive Russia has placed their finger on the scale in this one. I am also dead sure hand-waving that every five years or so someone on France decides to have an anti-government party on the street and everyone is invited, or ignoring the Le Pens have been a permanent fixture of the French political landscape, getting 10-15% every presidential election on the past thirty years is a proof of bad faith, like pulling the "horseshoe theory" out of their ass to justify their beloved centrists inept policies falling flat on the real world and pissing off both left and right.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:06 AM on December 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am positive Russia has placed their finger on the scale in this one. I am also dead sure hand-waving that every five years or so someone on France decides to have an anti-government party on the street and everyone is invited, or ignoring the Le Pens have been a permanent fixture of the French political landscape, getting 10-15% every presidential election on the past thirty years is a proof of bad faith, like pulling the "horseshoe theory" out of their ass to justify their beloved centrists inept policies falling flat on the real world and pissing off both left and right.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:06 AM on December 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
As to the free parking, the one thing I've seen over and over on reporting about this is that the people hardest hit by the tax are people who work shitty jobs in the center and commute from the periphery, where there is no reliable public transit. If you absolutely must have a car in order to work a precarious job in the center, I think that demanding free parking is a reasonable class-based demand even if it's not actually a very good solution to the problem.
The banlieue residents have notably been missing from these protests, that's what you're talking about here.
Also important to note, that as in the Us and UK, those arguing against immigration/asylum are also those folks least exposed to immigrants.
This is #MAGA/Gammons if instead of the second amendment and Jerusalem they were reared on the dirigiste corporatist soft-socialism of the trente glorieuses.
(I mean what's confusing to us Anglo-Saxons is that we much prefer their priors to our versions priors)
posted by JPD at 7:14 AM on December 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
The banlieue residents have notably been missing from these protests, that's what you're talking about here.
Also important to note, that as in the Us and UK, those arguing against immigration/asylum are also those folks least exposed to immigrants.
This is #MAGA/Gammons if instead of the second amendment and Jerusalem they were reared on the dirigiste corporatist soft-socialism of the trente glorieuses.
(I mean what's confusing to us Anglo-Saxons is that we much prefer their priors to our versions priors)
posted by JPD at 7:14 AM on December 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Okay, so instead of simply condemning the petite bourgeoisie as having regressive views, and grievances that are invalid because they are not as bad as those of classes lower than theirs, and possibly falling prey to the social media machinations of nefarious far right forces seeking to co-opt their anger, and thus causing us to side with the center-right austerity-loving technocrats by default, what if this time around we focus on how to figure out a way to unite them with the lower classes and everyone who isn't a far-right-winger or part of the elitist, and try to solve the problems at hand?
posted by Apocryphon at 10:13 AM on December 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 10:13 AM on December 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
what if this time around we focus on how to figure out a way to unite them with the lower classes and everyone who isn't a far-right-winger or part of the elitist, and try to solve the problems at hand?
DiEM25's thinking, exactly. (Translations into other languages coming shortly.)
posted by progosk at 11:23 AM on December 4, 2018
DiEM25's thinking, exactly. (Translations into other languages coming shortly.)
posted by progosk at 11:23 AM on December 4, 2018
Is there a strategy for combating climate change as a nation on a relatively short time table when the popular sentiment is against average people having to make significant changes in their daily lives?
posted by Selena777 at 6:11 PM on December 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 6:11 PM on December 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Was the gas tax hike offset by tax cuts in something that affects daily lives of the 99%, like, dunno renewable electricity, utilities or chanelled to increase the reliability of public transport so for instance a park and ride system could be used to make people drive less in their cars? Or really, any sort of policy to encourage "green" behaviour while not overly punishing those with literally no alternative.
If the answer is no, then, as mentioned before, this isn't more than a cash grab to cover up for the usual cuts for the rich with the convenient excuse of "saving the planet" while offering no alternatives to change behaviours.
posted by lmfsilva at 11:09 PM on December 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
If the answer is no, then, as mentioned before, this isn't more than a cash grab to cover up for the usual cuts for the rich with the convenient excuse of "saving the planet" while offering no alternatives to change behaviours.
posted by lmfsilva at 11:09 PM on December 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
Pamela Anderson is woke to this: Yellow Vests and I. (And, coincidentally, to the PI.)
posted by progosk at 3:36 AM on December 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by progosk at 3:36 AM on December 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
Here’s How Facebook’s Local News Algorithm Change Led To The Worst Riots Paris Has Seen In 50 Years
You can bet all the usual bad actors have a hand in this.
posted by Artw at 2:14 PM on December 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
You can bet all the usual bad actors have a hand in this.
posted by Artw at 2:14 PM on December 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
More protests expected in Paris this coming weekend - when there is also a Climate Alarm demonstration planned.
(English translation of the DiEM25 article posted above.)
posted by progosk at 3:55 PM on December 6, 2018
(English translation of the DiEM25 article posted above.)
posted by progosk at 3:55 PM on December 6, 2018
France might be losing its first big information war
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 6:42 PM on December 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 6:42 PM on December 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
There is a supposed unofficial list of demands and just by coincidence Leaving EU/NATO is right up there.
posted by PenDevil at 5:18 AM on December 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 5:18 AM on December 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
There is a supposed unofficial list
Why lend it any circulation, then?
Here's the cautious, joint trade union statement from Thursday, and a broad civil association call for a peaceful, progressive focus to the protest; plus the Guardian live-blog.
posted by progosk at 7:15 AM on December 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
Why lend it any circulation, then?
Here's the cautious, joint trade union statement from Thursday, and a broad civil association call for a peaceful, progressive focus to the protest; plus the Guardian live-blog.
posted by progosk at 7:15 AM on December 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
“I’m 70 years old ...my pension has been slashed, my grandchildren can’t make ends meet, the goverment must start listening.”
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 AM on December 8, 2018
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 AM on December 8, 2018
Why lend it any circulation, then?
And from someone working with The Economist, which I'm dead sure is itching to pin everything to RUSSIANS! RUSSIANS! to discredit any push against the shitshow that is Manu Notlepen. Keep ignoring the contradictions of capitalism, then blaming the left when the fascists take over because the people are fed up seems to be the strategy of the neolib center for the next decade.
Same shit as I've said with US elections: Russia played a part, but that might as well have been the kick in the stump to make the whole tree fall, but the heavy work of the chainsaws was well beyond the reach a few grand worth of facebook ads and backing fringe reactionary politicians. So many of these people are asking us to focus on the kick, but not on the symphony of chainsaws that came before. Why?
posted by lmfsilva at 12:06 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
And from someone working with The Economist, which I'm dead sure is itching to pin everything to RUSSIANS! RUSSIANS! to discredit any push against the shitshow that is Manu Notlepen. Keep ignoring the contradictions of capitalism, then blaming the left when the fascists take over because the people are fed up seems to be the strategy of the neolib center for the next decade.
Same shit as I've said with US elections: Russia played a part, but that might as well have been the kick in the stump to make the whole tree fall, but the heavy work of the chainsaws was well beyond the reach a few grand worth of facebook ads and backing fringe reactionary politicians. So many of these people are asking us to focus on the kick, but not on the symphony of chainsaws that came before. Why?
posted by lmfsilva at 12:06 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
450 people arrested in Brussels today . I live close to where the main protest was and there have been helicopters, sirens and bangers going off for most of the day. My apartment smelled like sulphur for a few hours in the middle of the day from the firecrackers but all seems to have calmed now.
Elsewhere Steve Bannon has opinions.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:27 PM on December 8, 2018
Elsewhere Steve Bannon has opinions.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:27 PM on December 8, 2018
*sees an entire crowd of protestors waving red flags and demanding a return of the welfare state and public ownership* clearly, this is dastardly Kremlin actions.
posted by The Whelk at 3:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 3:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
As a student, he led the 1968 uprising in Paris. Now he has Macron’s ear, but ‘Dany le Rouge’ is not afraid to speak out on why both sides are at fault
Cohn-Bendit, now a friend and adviser to President Emmanuel Macron, said: “This movement is very different to May 68. Back then, we wanted to get rid of a general (Charles de Gaulle); today these people want to put a general in power,”
posted by adamvasco at 3:11 PM on December 8, 2018
Cohn-Bendit, now a friend and adviser to President Emmanuel Macron, said: “This movement is very different to May 68. Back then, we wanted to get rid of a general (Charles de Gaulle); today these people want to put a general in power,”
posted by adamvasco at 3:11 PM on December 8, 2018
That's where I slightly disagree with @onesarahjones analysis. This is at heart a middle class revolt. The same people who demonstrate against middle class taxes today did not come out in support of state rail workers for instance. And the banlieues are not demonstrating either.
The necessary remedies are obviously better redistributive policies rather than supply-side structural reforms. But the constituency, the people out in the streets, are not necessarily behind the French left.“ @trekonomics
posted by The Whelk at 3:43 PM on December 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
The necessary remedies are obviously better redistributive policies rather than supply-side structural reforms. But the constituency, the people out in the streets, are not necessarily behind the French left.“ @trekonomics
posted by The Whelk at 3:43 PM on December 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
Some interesting analysis from Crimethinc. exploring the contradictions of this movement.
" ... what happens when centrists come to power and use their authority to stabilize capitalism at the expense of the poor? "
posted by Caractacus at 1:14 AM on December 9, 2018
" ... what happens when centrists come to power and use their authority to stabilize capitalism at the expense of the poor? "
posted by Caractacus at 1:14 AM on December 9, 2018
As far as I can tell, this movement started out as spontaneous horizontal direct action in a context of austerity, and triggered by a regressive tax which hit hardest against people in poor rural and suburban areas. At least that's the picture I get from activist sources, like the ones I've linked, who have been talking directly with the participants.
As the Crimethinc. piece above points out, when neo-liberal capitalism is co-opting environmentalism, feminism and anti-racism while simultaneously making ordinary people's live more terrible; it's a bonanza for the far-right and a variety of other bad actors like anti-environmentalist oil moguls and Russian troll farms.
I'm sceptical though of any suggestions that it's a fiendish Russian plot or an artefact of Facebook algorithms.
Sure, of course the Internet Research Agency types are picking this stuff up and working with it, but demonstrably they did that with Black Lives Matter too, and I don't think that was a fiendish Russian plot either.
posted by Caractacus at 1:32 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
As the Crimethinc. piece above points out, when neo-liberal capitalism is co-opting environmentalism, feminism and anti-racism while simultaneously making ordinary people's live more terrible; it's a bonanza for the far-right and a variety of other bad actors like anti-environmentalist oil moguls and Russian troll farms.
I'm sceptical though of any suggestions that it's a fiendish Russian plot or an artefact of Facebook algorithms.
Sure, of course the Internet Research Agency types are picking this stuff up and working with it, but demonstrably they did that with Black Lives Matter too, and I don't think that was a fiendish Russian plot either.
posted by Caractacus at 1:32 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
David Graeber, Le Monde
If one feature of any truly revolutionary moment is the complete failure of conventional categories to describe what’s happening around us, then that’s a pretty good sign we’re living in revolutionary times.
posted by adamvasco at 4:32 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
If one feature of any truly revolutionary moment is the complete failure of conventional categories to describe what’s happening around us, then that’s a pretty good sign we’re living in revolutionary times.
posted by adamvasco at 4:32 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
I've also seen a lot of people trying to use the end of NATO claim as a "ha HA! RUSSIANS!" gotcha, which... do you even know your history, dudes? NATO is by it's own practice an anti-communist organization, and a lot of left-wing parties have asked for it's dissolution since the end of the cold war. That's a lot of forward thinking, even going through the mid 90s where the rapidly liberalizing Russia under Yeltsin was BFF with the West and everyone to the left of third-way parties had to reason to support it, be it ideological or financial.
Anyone who is "shocked" that recent news such as neo-nazi infiltration in the German secret service, or the MI6 investigating more far-left movements that far-right movements by a factor of, dunno, 30 or something, more likely than not does not want to admit that the reason that happens is that they are instructed not to go after "anti-communist" groups because you don't want to bust your own ops. Sure, how much of, say, Gladio, was involved with actual fascists during the Years of Lead might be open to question given Soviet disinformation, but considering both CIA and MI6 and Italy's own Military Intelligence were in bed with fascist terrorists, it's not that much of a stretch to think NATO also played a part there, same of the far-right militias gearing up during the hot summer of 1975 here was also funded by them, with, how surprising, NATO parking a carrier in the Tagus ready to start a fucking civil war here.
posted by lmfsilva at 4:34 AM on December 9, 2018
Anyone who is "shocked" that recent news such as neo-nazi infiltration in the German secret service, or the MI6 investigating more far-left movements that far-right movements by a factor of, dunno, 30 or something, more likely than not does not want to admit that the reason that happens is that they are instructed not to go after "anti-communist" groups because you don't want to bust your own ops. Sure, how much of, say, Gladio, was involved with actual fascists during the Years of Lead might be open to question given Soviet disinformation, but considering both CIA and MI6 and Italy's own Military Intelligence were in bed with fascist terrorists, it's not that much of a stretch to think NATO also played a part there, same of the far-right militias gearing up during the hot summer of 1975 here was also funded by them, with, how surprising, NATO parking a carrier in the Tagus ready to start a fucking civil war here.
posted by lmfsilva at 4:34 AM on December 9, 2018
If your need to blame everything on neoliberals is so great that you’re blind to the fact that Russia has already run these ops successfully, twice, in two different countries, you’re going to end up with Nazis.
If your house is on fire and someone pulls up with a fire truck full of gasoline and sprays down the entire city block with accelerant, that is not something you should handwave away. Austerity programs and similar exploitation caused the fire in the first place, but you’re not going to put it out if you don’t also deal with the comic book villain showering the city with gasoline.
Because, as pointed out in other threads, if your socialist utopian solution to austerity becomes wedded to nationalism via propaganda (you know, the way it has before), you just might be a national socialist.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:47 AM on December 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
If your house is on fire and someone pulls up with a fire truck full of gasoline and sprays down the entire city block with accelerant, that is not something you should handwave away. Austerity programs and similar exploitation caused the fire in the first place, but you’re not going to put it out if you don’t also deal with the comic book villain showering the city with gasoline.
Because, as pointed out in other threads, if your socialist utopian solution to austerity becomes wedded to nationalism via propaganda (you know, the way it has before), you just might be a national socialist.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:47 AM on December 9, 2018 [5 favorites]
We're all going to die because the hard left is more interesting in pwning libs than actually solving any problems.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:22 AM on December 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 5:22 AM on December 9, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think it's tough with the Russia stuff. Nationalism and the dangers of a mass populist movement are nothing new, and it's a danger we all need to be aware of, sure.
But my view is that the people who've taken up crying Russia every time are the ones who don't believe there is any class tension. They need some reason as to why people wouldn't be satisfied with the slow death march of neoliberalism.
They'd rather believe it's all a vast Russian conspiracy than that there could be real discontent driving matters. To the point where, in the case of Trump, they refuse to believe that there is any sort of problem with racism or sexism, it's all just that Russia is so powerful. That there can be no legitimate critique of the democratic party, and any critic is a Russian bot.
The number of leftists I've seen randomly accused of being Russian bots for continuing to espouse the same views they always have, but a subset of people have convinced themselves it's all a extensive web of deception and the entire hard left is a Russian op.
So rarely do I get someone who I trust, who is already suspicious of NATO, who I know isn't a liberal shill who just wants the return of a status quo, who talks about Russia as a serious problem.
So, if we're saying Russia is involved, and we should be aware of that, and continue in vigilance and effort to keep these large movements to the left, sure, I agree.
The way I feel it's more commonly put is that Russia is involved, it's all cancelled now, mass protest is a mistake, we should all just pack up and go home because we're unwitting dupes and the only reason you wouldn't be happy with a non openly fascist government is if there was suspicious foreign influence.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:24 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
But my view is that the people who've taken up crying Russia every time are the ones who don't believe there is any class tension. They need some reason as to why people wouldn't be satisfied with the slow death march of neoliberalism.
They'd rather believe it's all a vast Russian conspiracy than that there could be real discontent driving matters. To the point where, in the case of Trump, they refuse to believe that there is any sort of problem with racism or sexism, it's all just that Russia is so powerful. That there can be no legitimate critique of the democratic party, and any critic is a Russian bot.
The number of leftists I've seen randomly accused of being Russian bots for continuing to espouse the same views they always have, but a subset of people have convinced themselves it's all a extensive web of deception and the entire hard left is a Russian op.
So rarely do I get someone who I trust, who is already suspicious of NATO, who I know isn't a liberal shill who just wants the return of a status quo, who talks about Russia as a serious problem.
So, if we're saying Russia is involved, and we should be aware of that, and continue in vigilance and effort to keep these large movements to the left, sure, I agree.
The way I feel it's more commonly put is that Russia is involved, it's all cancelled now, mass protest is a mistake, we should all just pack up and go home because we're unwitting dupes and the only reason you wouldn't be happy with a non openly fascist government is if there was suspicious foreign influence.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:24 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
That is some strenuous straw-manning, right there.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:31 AM on December 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 7:31 AM on December 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's my perception of the way Russia is viewed, the reactions liberals have to their interference and how they relate that to the actions of the hard left.
I hope I'm wrong. I hope people are saying the first thing here. I hope someone can say "no it seems like that but they're a few wierd people on the internet".
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:36 AM on December 9, 2018
I hope I'm wrong. I hope people are saying the first thing here. I hope someone can say "no it seems like that but they're a few wierd people on the internet".
posted by AnhydrousLove at 7:36 AM on December 9, 2018
We're in a world now where *all* political movements, protests and other newsworthy political events and actions are going to be the subject of information operations by a variety of bad actors, both nation-state and corporate.
I'd like to see a bit more evidence where causal claims are being made about such activities however, especially when those claims may tend to take priority over reasons why the target groups were disaffected in the first place.
Here's a study (pdf) of the way (opportunistically and on both sides) Russian information operations engaged with BLM.
Meanwhile, it seems highly unlikely to me that hitting the rural and suburban poor with a regressive tax (while giving tax cuts to the wealthy) is going to do anything particularly constructive to keep climate change under 2C.
It does however give the far right (and the interested states and capitalists who are joining them for the ride) a narrative in which environmentalism is identified with state oppression with them cast in the role of saviours.
posted by Caractacus at 8:19 AM on December 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'd like to see a bit more evidence where causal claims are being made about such activities however, especially when those claims may tend to take priority over reasons why the target groups were disaffected in the first place.
Here's a study (pdf) of the way (opportunistically and on both sides) Russian information operations engaged with BLM.
Meanwhile, it seems highly unlikely to me that hitting the rural and suburban poor with a regressive tax (while giving tax cuts to the wealthy) is going to do anything particularly constructive to keep climate change under 2C.
It does however give the far right (and the interested states and capitalists who are joining them for the ride) a narrative in which environmentalism is identified with state oppression with them cast in the role of saviours.
posted by Caractacus at 8:19 AM on December 9, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yup. This might be some kind of red/brown alliance but it absolutely is a victory for the Putins/Bannons/Kochs/Mercer’s of the world, and undoubtedly any other backers of fascism. I’d be surprised if any of them weren’t helping push it along in some way.
posted by Artw at 8:39 AM on December 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:39 AM on December 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, it seems highly unlikely to me that hitting the rural and suburban poor with a regressive tax (while giving tax cuts to the wealthy) is going to do anything particularly constructive to keep climate change under 2C.
Precisely so: the rich are the ones causing all the pollution in the first place. Regressive taxes aren't even a solution, they're just victim blaming. (And outright theft.)
The difficult part is, inequality is so extreme that everyone is utterly dependent upon the rich for food, shelter, health care, information, communication, etc. Naturally, they can then co-opt any large-scale movement of any kind to their own ends, as I think we can see with the Yellow Jackets.
I don't know what the solution is for this. Identifying sympathetic 1%ers, engaging in hacker culture and/or piracy, building local community, boycotting as much as you possibly can, rejecting xenophobic narratives, etc. are all parts of the solution, but I feel like a piece is missing that I simply can't identify.
I'm watching the Yellow Jackets with interest since necessity is the mother of invention.
posted by ragtag at 9:11 AM on December 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
Precisely so: the rich are the ones causing all the pollution in the first place. Regressive taxes aren't even a solution, they're just victim blaming. (And outright theft.)
The difficult part is, inequality is so extreme that everyone is utterly dependent upon the rich for food, shelter, health care, information, communication, etc. Naturally, they can then co-opt any large-scale movement of any kind to their own ends, as I think we can see with the Yellow Jackets.
I don't know what the solution is for this. Identifying sympathetic 1%ers, engaging in hacker culture and/or piracy, building local community, boycotting as much as you possibly can, rejecting xenophobic narratives, etc. are all parts of the solution, but I feel like a piece is missing that I simply can't identify.
I'm watching the Yellow Jackets with interest since necessity is the mother of invention.
posted by ragtag at 9:11 AM on December 9, 2018 [4 favorites]
We're all going to die because the hard left is more interesting in pwning libs than actually solving any problems.
It's been hard to leave this thread alone in my mind. I've been thinking a lot about this, and the dangers, but I think one of our roles is to criticise libs. That shouldn't be for our own pleasure, but because they're advocating dangerous things. If we don't, no-one else will.
I know I live in a bubble. I realised the other day that either MetaFilter or our ABC is the most right-wing place I frequent. I think it's always going to feel like straw arguments outside our bubble. Apart from MetaFilter, I see US liberals when they get ratioed by the left online, when silly takes make it to left internet as a joke because they're so absurd. As I said, I hope they're not representative.
Then today, Google recommended an article to me, probably for lots of reason related to bubbles and maybe they're looking at whatever I type, who knows. I don't know mcrump from Adam, but there was a paragraph in this post that I feel said my concerns much better, so I'll share it.
The need for a Left Populism.
A populism necessarily sets some kind of positioning of “US” versus “THEM”, but a Left Populism, instead of identifying the “Them” as the immigrants/foreigners/minorities/Muslims, should identify the “Them” as the capitalist class. In other words, this is a populism that, rather than just attacking symptoms of social problems (i.e. the Latin American immigrants that come and steal American jobs) attacks the underlying causes of those problems (the way that the capitalist class has set up a system that necessitates these global flows of capital). The centrist, liberal position holds (against the populists), that there is no need to declare a fundamental antagonism against the capitalist class, that they are in fact the allies against the intolerant bumpkin Trump voters, and they adjust their messaging accordingly. Unlike a “Trump,” the centrist holds, we must “all come together.” This position holds that there is no fundamental class tension in society—in fact, the tension comes from some kind of alien outside, such as Russian intervention. This position is conservative, uncompelling, uninspiring, and obviously false.
I'm not a Zizek fan, I think he's dangerous and doesn't consider how what he says will be taken. Nonetheless, this section spoke to me and seemed relevant to my concerns.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 3:22 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
It's been hard to leave this thread alone in my mind. I've been thinking a lot about this, and the dangers, but I think one of our roles is to criticise libs. That shouldn't be for our own pleasure, but because they're advocating dangerous things. If we don't, no-one else will.
I know I live in a bubble. I realised the other day that either MetaFilter or our ABC is the most right-wing place I frequent. I think it's always going to feel like straw arguments outside our bubble. Apart from MetaFilter, I see US liberals when they get ratioed by the left online, when silly takes make it to left internet as a joke because they're so absurd. As I said, I hope they're not representative.
Then today, Google recommended an article to me, probably for lots of reason related to bubbles and maybe they're looking at whatever I type, who knows. I don't know mcrump from Adam, but there was a paragraph in this post that I feel said my concerns much better, so I'll share it.
The need for a Left Populism.
A populism necessarily sets some kind of positioning of “US” versus “THEM”, but a Left Populism, instead of identifying the “Them” as the immigrants/foreigners/minorities/Muslims, should identify the “Them” as the capitalist class. In other words, this is a populism that, rather than just attacking symptoms of social problems (i.e. the Latin American immigrants that come and steal American jobs) attacks the underlying causes of those problems (the way that the capitalist class has set up a system that necessitates these global flows of capital). The centrist, liberal position holds (against the populists), that there is no need to declare a fundamental antagonism against the capitalist class, that they are in fact the allies against the intolerant bumpkin Trump voters, and they adjust their messaging accordingly. Unlike a “Trump,” the centrist holds, we must “all come together.” This position holds that there is no fundamental class tension in society—in fact, the tension comes from some kind of alien outside, such as Russian intervention. This position is conservative, uncompelling, uninspiring, and obviously false.
I'm not a Zizek fan, I think he's dangerous and doesn't consider how what he says will be taken. Nonetheless, this section spoke to me and seemed relevant to my concerns.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 3:22 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
There's this notion that a troll - Russian or otherwise - is someone who says mean things. But traditionally on UseNet - and I think this is very true of the Russian troll farms - a troll was more like the Wilfred Brambell character in A Hard Day's Night, a mixer. They'd go into a place, look at where the social fault lines lay and ruthlessly open them as wide as possible, with as little effort as possible. Everywhere on social media you find vicious arguments, you probably find such people, whatever side you're on. What they have done is model arguments and modes of behaviour that other people can follow.
It doesn't have to be an enormous conspiracy - a very small group of people working regular shifts can cause a tremendous amount of damage if they know what they're doing.
posted by Grangousier at 3:53 AM on December 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
It doesn't have to be an enormous conspiracy - a very small group of people working regular shifts can cause a tremendous amount of damage if they know what they're doing.
posted by Grangousier at 3:53 AM on December 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh, I didn't mean to post that. That was one of those ones I typed and was just going to delete. Sorry.
posted by Grangousier at 3:53 AM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:53 AM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Paris/Maidan
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:20 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
The joyful festival that seized the Champs-Elysées on the 24th of November resurfaced on Saturday the 1st of December in the biggest riot that Paris has seen since 1968. Who knows if the events brought to life by the Yellow Vest movement could take the form of an insurrectionary movement in the weeks to come? At the same time, however, the confusion that marks our time spreads within the movement itself. While the national press is busy rambling on about the unreasonableness of the Yellow Vests for having welcomed “thugs” into the movement, the crassest elements of the far-right are trying to appropriate its momentum, the left of the unions gets timidly involved, and a certain autonomous milieu—however revolutionary it may be—doesn’t know how to relate to a phenomenon that exceeds it. Meanwhile, dubious flags fly under a haze of gas and at the barricades, and songs from a sordid history ring out, bringing many people to question the movement’s direction and the relevance of expressing solidarity with it. Indeed, we attest to the fascist forces organizing, flowering, and gaining importance both physically and discursively in the media, which all bears a strong resemblance to the last insurrectionary situation witnessed in Europe.More at Lundi Matin
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:20 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
France yellow vest protests: Macron promises wage rise - "France has seen four weekends of violent protests against fuel tax rises, living costs and other issues.
Speaking in a televised address, Mr Macron condemned the violence but said the protesters' anger was "deep, and in many ways legitimate".
The minimum wage would increase by €100 per month from 2019, he said.
A planned tax increase for low-income pensioners would be cancelled, overtime pay would no longer be taxed, and employers would be encouraged to pay a tax-free end of year bonus to employees, he added.
However, he refused to reinstate a tax on the wealthy, saying "this would weaken us, we need to create jobs"."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:28 PM on December 10, 2018
Speaking in a televised address, Mr Macron condemned the violence but said the protesters' anger was "deep, and in many ways legitimate".
The minimum wage would increase by €100 per month from 2019, he said.
A planned tax increase for low-income pensioners would be cancelled, overtime pay would no longer be taxed, and employers would be encouraged to pay a tax-free end of year bonus to employees, he added.
However, he refused to reinstate a tax on the wealthy, saying "this would weaken us, we need to create jobs"."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:28 PM on December 10, 2018
Militant protest works. You can analyze the pluses and minuses all day but factually, it works. At least in countries where shooting protestors is frowned on.
posted by latkes at 5:43 PM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 5:43 PM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
New Statesman: "Macron is a bit like a sneaky character in a Disney film: if you don’t negotiate precise terms in the contract, chances are you’re losing out in the agreement as a whole."
Thomas Piketty in Le Monde: "If Macron wants to save his five-year period in power, he must immediately re-instate the wealth tax and allocate the revenue to compensate those who are the most affected by the rises in carbon tax".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:16 AM on December 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thomas Piketty in Le Monde: "If Macron wants to save his five-year period in power, he must immediately re-instate the wealth tax and allocate the revenue to compensate those who are the most affected by the rises in carbon tax".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:16 AM on December 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
… the most beautiful of all doubts
Is when the downtrodden and despondent
raise their heads and
Stop believing in the strength
Of their oppressors.
posted by adamvasco at 2:27 PM on December 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Is when the downtrodden and despondent
raise their heads and
Stop believing in the strength
Of their oppressors.
posted by adamvasco at 2:27 PM on December 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’ve read through some of the links here and I can’t find a conclusion as to whether these are actually legitimate protests or if they’re some sort of right-wing “populism” or Russian AstroTurf. I see American friends getting all behind it because they want things like this to happen here, but that makes me worried. So, are there some more resources with information about these protests? BBC and everybody all seem to have the same information.
posted by gucci mane at 8:34 PM on December 11, 2018
posted by gucci mane at 8:34 PM on December 11, 2018
gucci mane - the protests are very real and very legitimate. Whether they are being hijacked by other interests is a different discussion. The eyes are on Paris but the discontent is nationwide
Nora Bensaâdoune writes from the Drôme region " If you want to understand the gilets jaunes, get out of Paris"
While some protesters are wreaking destruction in the capital, others are breathing life into rural France’s forgotten corners.
For Al Jazeera: The wave of protests sweeping through France is not a rejection of green policies. It's a revolt against the 1 percent.
posted by adamvasco at 7:38 AM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Nora Bensaâdoune writes from the Drôme region " If you want to understand the gilets jaunes, get out of Paris"
While some protesters are wreaking destruction in the capital, others are breathing life into rural France’s forgotten corners.
For Al Jazeera: The wave of protests sweeping through France is not a rejection of green policies. It's a revolt against the 1 percent.
posted by adamvasco at 7:38 AM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Borrowing the rhetoric of "get out of your bubble, you out of touch urban elties!" does nothing to convince me this isn't just reactionary right-wing populism.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:10 AM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 8:10 AM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
Green-energy measures which fall on everyone who isn't scandalously rich after a big tax cut for the already scandalously rich, and which come without social programs and infrastructure improvements to help people make the transition away from petroleum, are doomed not only to fail, but to blacken green policy's name everywhere. The broader pro-business, anti-labor program of which the fuel tax formed a part should color our judgment of it, however necessary a fuel tax would be in a genuinely green program.
I think Macron's political troubles are most likely to benefit the National Front, however wrongheaded his policies, so I'm torn between dislike of his politics and total loathing of what's likely to succeed him. I hope the French left is stronger than it looks from over here.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:39 AM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think Macron's political troubles are most likely to benefit the National Front, however wrongheaded his policies, so I'm torn between dislike of his politics and total loathing of what's likely to succeed him. I hope the French left is stronger than it looks from over here.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:39 AM on December 12, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don’t think anyone is claiming the discontent itself is astroturfed. It’s hard to AstroTurf hundreds of thousands of people setting cars on fire. But it’s definitely possible to manipulate that discontent, and we already have evidence that Russia has done that, to the benefit of Nazis of various flavors, twice. There are early suggestions it’s happening again.
France’s political landscape is its own, and it’s impossible for people outside to understand the nuances of internal French politics. I wouldn’t try. But we can definitely sound the alarm when literal Nazis start running the same plays over and over again. And they are. And if the left allows them to, they’ll take full advantage, and, well. We know where that goes.
The thing is, as an american, there’s something sort of impenetrable about the anger. I believe Europeans when they say it’s justified, but there’s ...a disconnect. Poverty in France doesn’t really exist the way it exists in America. I think sometimes Europeans have a hard time with that. Like they don’t really understand that when we say dirt poor, we mean dirt poor, the kind of poverty that, to the best of my knowledge, socialist policies have largely eliminated in Western Europe. So we see a bunch of people who have it way better than our poor flipping out about taxes and there’s kind of ...a head tilt reaction.
They’re obviously really angry, and they seem to be angry about a hollowing out of those socialist policies. That anger is terrifying when it’s wedded to nationalism, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:57 AM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
France’s political landscape is its own, and it’s impossible for people outside to understand the nuances of internal French politics. I wouldn’t try. But we can definitely sound the alarm when literal Nazis start running the same plays over and over again. And they are. And if the left allows them to, they’ll take full advantage, and, well. We know where that goes.
The thing is, as an american, there’s something sort of impenetrable about the anger. I believe Europeans when they say it’s justified, but there’s ...a disconnect. Poverty in France doesn’t really exist the way it exists in America. I think sometimes Europeans have a hard time with that. Like they don’t really understand that when we say dirt poor, we mean dirt poor, the kind of poverty that, to the best of my knowledge, socialist policies have largely eliminated in Western Europe. So we see a bunch of people who have it way better than our poor flipping out about taxes and there’s kind of ...a head tilt reaction.
They’re obviously really angry, and they seem to be angry about a hollowing out of those socialist policies. That anger is terrifying when it’s wedded to nationalism, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:57 AM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
The thing is, as an american, there’s something sort of impenetrable about the anger. I believe Europeans when they say it’s justified, but there’s ...a disconnect. Poverty in France doesn’t really exist the way it exists in America.
I'm sure people in the poor suburbs of France's cities would disagree, but on the other hand, they're not the ones at the protests. Meanwhile, some people who are at the protests really do live paycheck-to-paycheck, with no chance to save for a crisis, and would have suffered badly if the gas tax had gone into effect, despite social democrats' greater success in Europe than in America after World War II. It's a tangled knot even before you get to the question of the relative importance of the Russian state's efforts to irritate social ills in other countries compared to that of the ills themselves, and it would be foolish of me to think I could untangle it in a short comment on a general-interest forum.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:51 AM on December 12, 2018
I'm sure people in the poor suburbs of France's cities would disagree, but on the other hand, they're not the ones at the protests. Meanwhile, some people who are at the protests really do live paycheck-to-paycheck, with no chance to save for a crisis, and would have suffered badly if the gas tax had gone into effect, despite social democrats' greater success in Europe than in America after World War II. It's a tangled knot even before you get to the question of the relative importance of the Russian state's efforts to irritate social ills in other countries compared to that of the ills themselves, and it would be foolish of me to think I could untangle it in a short comment on a general-interest forum.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:51 AM on December 12, 2018
I don't know, it seems like mass mobilization will always represent a range of interests along with various established interest groups attempting to use the power of the mobilization to further their own ends: even a centrally organized demonstration contains a wide range of analysis and various levels of political sophistication.
Point to me after reading more is: people are responding to real suffering. People in government could respond to this with progressive policy or double down on policies that accelerate income inequality. People in power should both respond to public demand and to a moral compass.
posted by latkes at 10:19 AM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
Point to me after reading more is: people are responding to real suffering. People in government could respond to this with progressive policy or double down on policies that accelerate income inequality. People in power should both respond to public demand and to a moral compass.
posted by latkes at 10:19 AM on December 12, 2018 [2 favorites]
I know graffiti is not an indicator but ....heh
posted by The Whelk at 10:31 AM on December 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:31 AM on December 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
Green-energy measures which fall on everyone who isn't scandalously rich after a big tax cut for the already scandalously rich, and which come without social programs and infrastructure improvements to help people make the transition away from petroleum, are doomed not only to fail, but to blacken green policy's name everywhere.
The cynic in me sometimes thinks if that was not the intended result all along the way. To fight climate change, we need more than changes in personal consumption. There's a limit to the impact of those choices (not that we should stop trying to do better - like I usually say, if blocking all cars from the city center by itself won't save the planet, at least it will make breathing easier) if the largest polluters are untouched because that would decrease profits.
Making up such a regressive tax (after cuts to the wealthy left a shortfall) that was sure to backfire seems to be the perfect way to ultimately do nothing while also allowing Manu to say "Well, I tried, but they wouldn't let me".
posted by lmfsilva at 10:42 AM on December 12, 2018
The cynic in me sometimes thinks if that was not the intended result all along the way. To fight climate change, we need more than changes in personal consumption. There's a limit to the impact of those choices (not that we should stop trying to do better - like I usually say, if blocking all cars from the city center by itself won't save the planet, at least it will make breathing easier) if the largest polluters are untouched because that would decrease profits.
Making up such a regressive tax (after cuts to the wealthy left a shortfall) that was sure to backfire seems to be the perfect way to ultimately do nothing while also allowing Manu to say "Well, I tried, but they wouldn't let me".
posted by lmfsilva at 10:42 AM on December 12, 2018
Here is a fixed version of The Whelk's link.
(I think my favorite is the game of hangman.)
posted by ragtag at 11:06 AM on December 12, 2018
(I think my favorite is the game of hangman.)
posted by ragtag at 11:06 AM on December 12, 2018
Macron's Ghosts Return To Haunt Him
The protests by the yellow vests against French President Emmanuel Macron aren't showing any signs of letting up despite concessions made by the government. Where is this anger coming from?
The yellow vests' revolt is also one of the rural areas against Paris, led by French people who, contrary to what is often said about them, do not belong to the middle class. It is the little people, the "class populaire," or working class -- those to whom Macron promised social advancement and who voted for him instead of the Socialists in response and helped secure his win.
posted by infini at 3:09 PM on December 14, 2018
The protests by the yellow vests against French President Emmanuel Macron aren't showing any signs of letting up despite concessions made by the government. Where is this anger coming from?
The yellow vests' revolt is also one of the rural areas against Paris, led by French people who, contrary to what is often said about them, do not belong to the middle class. It is the little people, the "class populaire," or working class -- those to whom Macron promised social advancement and who voted for him instead of the Socialists in response and helped secure his win.
posted by infini at 3:09 PM on December 14, 2018
The first data on the protestors is coming out
“In the sample, 33% claim to be apolitical and majority have not participated in political action before. Of the remaining, the tendency is towards the left, not right, which is interesting, and differs from the the orientations of the various leaders/instigators of the mvmt”
posted by The Whelk at 4:58 PM on December 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
“In the sample, 33% claim to be apolitical and majority have not participated in political action before. Of the remaining, the tendency is towards the left, not right, which is interesting, and differs from the the orientations of the various leaders/instigators of the mvmt”
posted by The Whelk at 4:58 PM on December 16, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also there’s some video of protestors spraying manure on a goverment building if you’re into that.
posted by The Whelk at 4:59 PM on December 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 4:59 PM on December 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
An interview about the gilets jaunes with Édouard Louis, a young gay novelist from the French periphery, or hinterlands, or deindustrialized regions or provinces or whatever you want to call the poor parts of the country.
posted by Frowner at 7:10 AM on December 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 7:10 AM on December 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
France Protests: Police Threaten to Join Protesters, Demand Better Pay and Conditions
posted by The Whelk at 9:59 PM on December 19, 2018
posted by The Whelk at 9:59 PM on December 19, 2018
And voilà: the flic's concerted communication/action worked like a charm.
posted by progosk at 1:40 AM on December 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by progosk at 1:40 AM on December 20, 2018 [1 favorite]
Various attempts of Yellow-Vest-alikes in Catalonia, Portugal and Taiwan.
posted by progosk at 2:46 PM on December 21, 2018
posted by progosk at 2:46 PM on December 21, 2018
An interview about the gilets jaunes with Édouard Louis
I don't disagree that the hidden violence of structural inequity must be recognised and opposed, but it's wrong to imagine that the faults of a popular movement are not fundamental to it; that liberté, égalité, and fraternité will rise up if the awkward cracks in the foundation are merely papered over. It seems to me that the author has fallen prey to the left-wing version of the Politician's Syllogism:
The popular image of Jews as powerful-yet-vulnerable oppressors is deeply rooted in Western culture and will absorb any popular movement that doesn't explicitly oppose it. In fact, the protestor whose image was chosen for Paris Match's cover (also reportedly Le Figaro's) was none other than Hervé Ryssen, a notoriously antisemitic right-wing rabble rouser. Commentators criticised the journal for not recognising him, but don't seem to have wondered why the gilets jaunes didn't recognise, and exclude him.
There's a reason antisemitism was called "the socialism of fools". Some Jews are capitalist oppressors, and therefore legitimate targets of criticism; some socialists are antisemites, and therefore more willing to seize upon Jewish targets; some antisemites are socialists, or are at least happy to go along with the program in order to be given a platform. Initially it looks as though fraternal realism has allowed your movement to swell, until suddenly you notice that your youth wing is drilling with tiki torches and armbands. This has happened repeatedly; it shouldn't be a surprise; but oh, look! It's happened again!
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:32 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't disagree that the hidden violence of structural inequity must be recognised and opposed, but it's wrong to imagine that the faults of a popular movement are not fundamental to it; that liberté, égalité, and fraternité will rise up if the awkward cracks in the foundation are merely papered over. It seems to me that the author has fallen prey to the left-wing version of the Politician's Syllogism:
- A popular movement must not be fundamentally racist/misogynist/homophobic;
- This is a popular movement;
- Therefore, it must not be fundamentally racist/misogynist/homophobic.
The popular image of Jews as powerful-yet-vulnerable oppressors is deeply rooted in Western culture and will absorb any popular movement that doesn't explicitly oppose it. In fact, the protestor whose image was chosen for Paris Match's cover (also reportedly Le Figaro's) was none other than Hervé Ryssen, a notoriously antisemitic right-wing rabble rouser. Commentators criticised the journal for not recognising him, but don't seem to have wondered why the gilets jaunes didn't recognise, and exclude him.
There's a reason antisemitism was called "the socialism of fools". Some Jews are capitalist oppressors, and therefore legitimate targets of criticism; some socialists are antisemites, and therefore more willing to seize upon Jewish targets; some antisemites are socialists, or are at least happy to go along with the program in order to be given a platform. Initially it looks as though fraternal realism has allowed your movement to swell, until suddenly you notice that your youth wing is drilling with tiki torches and armbands. This has happened repeatedly; it shouldn't be a surprise; but oh, look! It's happened again!
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:32 PM on December 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
On the other hand,
Jim Kavanagh, The Yellow Vests and the Left:
posted by ragtag at 7:59 AM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Jim Kavanagh, The Yellow Vests and the Left:
The left has succumbed to deprecating a politics of class solidarity in favor of a politics of solidarity based on like-mindedness on a checklist of issues. But this has things backward. Solidarity is not a matter of prior agreement. It’s bedrock socialism that you can only build a movement with the working-class we have, not the one we wish for. Which means solidarity must start with material interest, not like-mindedness, You don’t have to agree with me for me to defend your interests.[Please note I'm not necessarily arguing for or against Joe in Australia's point; just learning and processing and trying to decide where I fall, and thought this was an interesting counterpoint.]
Agreement doesn’t precede, it results from, solidarity. You get—earn and build—popular support for progressive, socialist, and revolutionary ideas and programs by defending and fighting for people’s material interests, not by interrogating people who are in actual revolt against the neo-liberal state to see whether they have the correct ideas regarding everything on your checklist, and insulting and attacking them if they don’t. That’s the approach of the liberal intellectual, not the left socialist.
posted by ragtag at 7:59 AM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
It's all very well for Louis to say that people are trying to shut the gilets jaunes down by saying “Oh, this movement is racist, it’s homophobic, it’s anti-climate,” but in fact there have been substantial reports of antisemitism associated with the gilets jaunes from the very beginning and it's mostly passed unmentioned.
But it seems like the only way forward - in the larger sense whether or not in this specific moment - is for left people to build coalitions within these bigger movements, hopefully strong enough to marginalize and destroy right factions. I agree that you can't possibly do this while pretending the that right factions don't exist, but the way the world is now, there's a lot of economic upheaval coming. I don't think leftwing people of good will have the option of sitting it out rather than fighting within it.
On that note (although I wasn't part of this and indeed have literally no idea who put it on) there was a solidarity demonstration at the Minneapolis Alliance Francaise. Very interestingly indeed, it appears to have been mostly left and anarchist but to have attracted a small number of racists/anti-Semites, who were driven out by the anarchists. So even here in the US, the gilets jaunes seem to represent right and left. (I swear I did not read the ConflictMN take on "contesting the terrain" before writing my comment, either; it's just that weirdly some punk rock young person thinks the same as a boring Old.)
posted by Frowner at 1:59 PM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
But it seems like the only way forward - in the larger sense whether or not in this specific moment - is for left people to build coalitions within these bigger movements, hopefully strong enough to marginalize and destroy right factions. I agree that you can't possibly do this while pretending the that right factions don't exist, but the way the world is now, there's a lot of economic upheaval coming. I don't think leftwing people of good will have the option of sitting it out rather than fighting within it.
On that note (although I wasn't part of this and indeed have literally no idea who put it on) there was a solidarity demonstration at the Minneapolis Alliance Francaise. Very interestingly indeed, it appears to have been mostly left and anarchist but to have attracted a small number of racists/anti-Semites, who were driven out by the anarchists. So even here in the US, the gilets jaunes seem to represent right and left. (I swear I did not read the ConflictMN take on "contesting the terrain" before writing my comment, either; it's just that weirdly some punk rock young person thinks the same as a boring Old.)
posted by Frowner at 1:59 PM on December 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Solidarity is not a matter of prior agreement. It’s bedrock socialism that you can only build a movement with the working-class we have, not the one we wish for. Which means solidarity must start with material interest, not like-mindedness, You don’t have to agree with me for me to defend your interests.
He sort of forgets to mention that some of the things people “disagree” on is whether some of us are fully people
posted by schadenfrau at 2:02 PM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
He sort of forgets to mention that some of the things people “disagree” on is whether some of us are fully people
posted by schadenfrau at 2:02 PM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
it's wrong to imagine that the faults of a popular movement are not fundamental to it; that liberté, égalité, and fraternité will rise up if the awkward cracks in the foundation are merely papered over.
The union movement has some shocking racism in its history: the London dockers striking in support of Enoch Powell, the Bristol bus drivers union banning black drivers. But today, in general, the union movement is a powerful bulwark against racism. In reality, anti-racist activists were able to work within a popular movement and make it an ally. It would not have been a better move for them to lean back and sigh "oh yes, unions are so racist, better to ignore this popular movement and hope it goes away".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:33 PM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
The union movement has some shocking racism in its history: the London dockers striking in support of Enoch Powell, the Bristol bus drivers union banning black drivers. But today, in general, the union movement is a powerful bulwark against racism. In reality, anti-racist activists were able to work within a popular movement and make it an ally. It would not have been a better move for them to lean back and sigh "oh yes, unions are so racist, better to ignore this popular movement and hope it goes away".
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:33 PM on December 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
The union movement has some shocking racism in its history [...] anti-racist activists were able to work within a popular movement and make it an ally.
My casual reading indicates that racial exclusion was defeated by two things: the government forcing companies to accept non-white applicants; and the eventual voting power of black employees.
Anyway, I don't think that's a good parallel for this situation. Unions are inherently focused on the workplace, but protests are about whatever their organisers say. If antisemites are directing a protest movement then the movement itself becomes antisemitic. That is., one of its aims becomes the demonisation and persecution of Jews.
It would not have been a better move for them to lean back and sigh "oh yes, unions are so racist, better to ignore this popular movement and hope it goes away".
As I said above, one of the public faces of this movement is Hervé Ryssen, who has literally served a prison sentence over his antisemitic agitation. You seem to suggest that Jews and their allies should join in with Ryssen, among the marchers making Nazi salutes and the slogans decrying the influence of "Rothschilds" and ... what? Start earnestly lecturing them on their false consciousness? Their consciousness isn't false in the least: this is what they signed up for.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:08 AM on December 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
My casual reading indicates that racial exclusion was defeated by two things: the government forcing companies to accept non-white applicants; and the eventual voting power of black employees.
Anyway, I don't think that's a good parallel for this situation. Unions are inherently focused on the workplace, but protests are about whatever their organisers say. If antisemites are directing a protest movement then the movement itself becomes antisemitic. That is., one of its aims becomes the demonisation and persecution of Jews.
It would not have been a better move for them to lean back and sigh "oh yes, unions are so racist, better to ignore this popular movement and hope it goes away".
As I said above, one of the public faces of this movement is Hervé Ryssen, who has literally served a prison sentence over his antisemitic agitation. You seem to suggest that Jews and their allies should join in with Ryssen, among the marchers making Nazi salutes and the slogans decrying the influence of "Rothschilds" and ... what? Start earnestly lecturing them on their false consciousness? Their consciousness isn't false in the least: this is what they signed up for.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:08 AM on December 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Start earnestly lecturing them on their false consciousness? Their consciousness isn't false in the least: this is what they signed up for.
I don't understand your understanding of false consciousness. Of course people believe it, it's in the description. Still, I don't think anyone's recommending wasting time trying to convert Ryssen. To the debatable extent the entire broad movement is anti-semitic, it's not going to become less so by holding our noses and ignoring all legitimate concerns because of quite possibly unintentional association as evidenced by a photo opp.
I've not heard that Ryssen or any other antisemites are the driving force behind the affair, merely that they're taking advantage because they can. If the left were to abandon the whole movement, that only means that the fascists would be all that remained providing people with answers as to why their lives suck.
I'd much rather have people there explaining that Ryssen & kin are dangerous, and there's another way. If we're there, we can say, "don't be a disphit, throw that sign in the bin, don't chant that, Jews aren't the problem, the boss is. There's comrades here standing with us who that's directly harmful to." That's a whole lot less effective if you're just another critic of the protests in the paper.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:38 AM on December 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't understand your understanding of false consciousness. Of course people believe it, it's in the description. Still, I don't think anyone's recommending wasting time trying to convert Ryssen. To the debatable extent the entire broad movement is anti-semitic, it's not going to become less so by holding our noses and ignoring all legitimate concerns because of quite possibly unintentional association as evidenced by a photo opp.
I've not heard that Ryssen or any other antisemites are the driving force behind the affair, merely that they're taking advantage because they can. If the left were to abandon the whole movement, that only means that the fascists would be all that remained providing people with answers as to why their lives suck.
I'd much rather have people there explaining that Ryssen & kin are dangerous, and there's another way. If we're there, we can say, "don't be a disphit, throw that sign in the bin, don't chant that, Jews aren't the problem, the boss is. There's comrades here standing with us who that's directly harmful to." That's a whole lot less effective if you're just another critic of the protests in the paper.
posted by AnhydrousLove at 8:38 AM on December 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
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posted by darkstar at 10:45 AM on December 1, 2018 [1 favorite]