While the toxicity Ellie received was real, Ellie was not.
January 5, 2019 5:44 PM Subscribe
Overwatch team discovers female player "Ellie" was an imposter [Bleeding Cool] “Overwatch Contender team Second Wind added a new player to their roster just before the new year, but the player in question quickly received negative attention from Overwatch esports fans. A new player hit the top 10 ranks on the Overwatch NA server and was revealed to be a player known as “Ellie”. Second Wind had recently lost a few players and needed to fill a slot on their roster and were eager to onboard “Ellie” to the team. When “Ellie”‘s placement was announced there were several people in the Overwatch community who questioned the secrecy involved. Ellie was the only player on Second Wind’s roster who did not have her full legal name listed on the official Overwatch Contenders site. Threats to dox her soon followed. Shortly thereafter, Ellie stepped down from the Second Wind roster. As part of their oversight of the Overwatch Contenders league, Blizzard does background checks on all players to assure that they are who they claim to be. The background check done as part of Second Wind’s roster approval revealed that “Ellie” was a faked persona.”
• Official statement regarding Ellie from Second Wind management [Twitlonger]
• Official statement regarding Ellie from Second Wind management [Twitlonger]
“As a team, we admit we handled this poorly. More could have been done to support our players, but we had found ourselves unprepared for the attention Ellie got upon their onboarding; we had full faith in them. Due to our desperation to fill a roster, we unfortunately overlooked crucial information that should have been paid more attention to. We did not properly allocate enough time to communicate with the public as a means to support our players, and as a result caused more questioning that could have been avoided. Ellie decided to step down on their own, and shortly afterwards we announced their departure from the team. As of today, Blizzard had gotten back to us on the background of Ellie, and notified us that they were not who they claimed to be, and discovered that the Ellie account was used for purposes we do not support. We apologize to the community as a whole for not handling this situation better when we should have, and we will aim to do better.”• Overwatch Team Says Player Questioned About Identity Was Impostor After All [Kotaku]
“Earlier today, a streamer named Aspen claimed that top-500 player Punisher—a friend of hers who was linked to Ellie early on and was even accused of being them—was Ellie after all. “Ellie is not Ellie,” she said during a stream. “The whole situation was meant to be, in a way, a social experiment. Ellie is actually Punisher, and he told me yesterday, so there you go.” Aspen was unable to offer full details on why Punisher did it, who provided Ellie’s voice in streams, or how he managed to pull it all off, but she painted the whole thing as a “social experiment gone wrong” that ultimately revealed how difficult it is to be a woman in competitive gaming spaces. As of now, Ellie’s true identity is still not fully known. Aspen, Punisher, and the Ellie account have not responded to Kotaku’s requests for comment. These new revelations have puzzled and enraged the competitive Overwatch community, who fear that this whole fiasco will serve as yet another unfair hurdle for prospective women players to clear while dragging themselves up the daunting mountain that is esports.”• Overwatch team discovers female player was an imposter [Eurogamer]
“It looks like this "social experiment", if it was actually intended as such, was an attempt to make some kind of point about women in esports, but it was heavily criticised. Liz Richardson, boss of Overwatch website Overwatchscore, said it will have "lasting ramifications" for women who already face an uphill challenge in esports. And Overwatch players have hit out at the "Ellie" account, too. In one of the top posts on r/Overwatch, redditor hydra877 said: "Now, more than ever, any girl that tries to go pro will get this gigantic amount of scrutiny and will be practically forced to reveal aspects of their personal lives just to prove they're a woman."”• Liz Richardson, Managing Editor at Overwatch eSports site Overwatchscore [Twitter Thread]
“1/ I am seven goddamn thousand levels of livid about this Ellie situation. People involved aside, this "stunt" will have lasting ramifications for ANY woman/nb person trying to get into Contenders. They will ALL now be subject to "lol are you real??" harassment.
2/ This has lasting consequences for ANY woman in the industry who now has to put up with this bullshit. I'm tired. We're all tired. My DMs are open for other women who just want to SCREAM today.
3/ Hey esports boys? You've been talking a big game about equality and fairness the past few days. Now is the time to step up. Call out your bros who are suddenly OK with this. You're truly tired of this shit too? DO SOMETHING.”
Threats to dox her soon followed.
Sigh. While mefightclub is pretty good, is there any OTHER group of gamers, organized or not, that is not just utterly full of shitheads?
posted by axiom at 6:07 PM on January 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
Sigh. While mefightclub is pretty good, is there any OTHER group of gamers, organized or not, that is not just utterly full of shitheads?
posted by axiom at 6:07 PM on January 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
women in gaming were ALREADY all subjected to this precise bullshit, constantly and without cease, so now it will just be exponentially more disgusting
posted by poffin boffin at 6:08 PM on January 5, 2019 [20 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 6:08 PM on January 5, 2019 [20 favorites]
Oh look, another dumpster fire that has somehow also turned into a multi-car accident with explosions.
"Gamers" somehow manage to ruin basically everything they touch. It's like they're the opposite of furries.
posted by aramaic at 6:08 PM on January 5, 2019 [30 favorites]
"Gamers" somehow manage to ruin basically everything they touch. It's like they're the opposite of furries.
posted by aramaic at 6:08 PM on January 5, 2019 [30 favorites]
I normally try to point my lens at the good parts of gaming, the things we can celebrate, but I also want to focus on this kind of shit, because we need to call it out more, we need to scream out loud, yo this isn't fucking acceptable. As Liz Richardson tweeted, eSports boys, we're looking at you, call out this shitty behaviour and be better, this is unfuckingaccpetable!!
posted by Fizz at 6:16 PM on January 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 6:16 PM on January 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
Gee, I wonder why a female gamer (whether she's "real" or not, whatever the fuck this even means) might want to hide her identity because she'll inevitably be doxxed, stalked and harassed.
NO GIRLS ALLOWED! BITCHES HAVE COOTIES GTFO OF MY GAME. all. the. time.
I liked this quote: "hey punisher im so glad you had a fun time seeing what its like to be a girl playing an online video game for *checks calendar* about 12 days. glad you can go back to ur normal life now and not have to deal with any of that anymore. wish i knew what that felt like!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:32 PM on January 5, 2019 [42 favorites]
NO GIRLS ALLOWED! BITCHES HAVE COOTIES GTFO OF MY GAME. all. the. time.
I liked this quote: "hey punisher im so glad you had a fun time seeing what its like to be a girl playing an online video game for *checks calendar* about 12 days. glad you can go back to ur normal life now and not have to deal with any of that anymore. wish i knew what that felt like!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:32 PM on January 5, 2019 [42 favorites]
There’s nothing good about esports, is there. Unbelievable.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:46 PM on January 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:46 PM on January 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
A lot of my friends watch OWL and it's difficult for me to understand how they can overlook or at least temporarily set aside the extreme toxicity they factually know is going on in the background to enjoy the actual games bc I'm sure as fuck not capable of that.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:54 PM on January 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 6:54 PM on January 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
Sigh. While mefightclub is pretty good, is there any OTHER group of gamers, organized or not, that is not just utterly full of shitheads?
I'm a fan of the community over at QuarterToThree:
https://forum.quartertothree.com/c/games
https://www.quartertothree.com/fp/
It's a relatively small and friendly place, with decent people/standards/moderation. It started out as a community for game-devs and game reviewers, so you'll occasionally see big-names posting there like Soren Johnson or Cliff Harris or Vic Davis.
posted by Balna Watya at 7:13 PM on January 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm a fan of the community over at QuarterToThree:
https://forum.quartertothree.com/c/games
https://www.quartertothree.com/fp/
It's a relatively small and friendly place, with decent people/standards/moderation. It started out as a community for game-devs and game reviewers, so you'll occasionally see big-names posting there like Soren Johnson or Cliff Harris or Vic Davis.
posted by Balna Watya at 7:13 PM on January 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh look, another dumpster fire
Yes; confirms the rule that anything that anyone describes as a "social experiment" is a complete Dumpster fire
posted by thelonius at 7:36 PM on January 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
Yes; confirms the rule that anything that anyone describes as a "social experiment" is a complete Dumpster fire
posted by thelonius at 7:36 PM on January 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
I really wish this had gone down differently. I totally agree with Liz Richardson; way to make it EVEN HARDER to be a gamer and a woman, and for what? Ugh.
I had to wait for some repairs this morning, so I played Overwatch on an off time when none of my friends were on. I talked and tried to coordinate just like I do normally, because that's what makes the game so great. Of course that lasted about two matches until I just got too sick of the sex talk and the propositions, and just stayed silent for a few maps. There's only so many "Suck my d**" "what's your insta, let’s see if you’re bangable" and "give me your number"'s that you can stomach on a Saturday morning...
This is a fairly unusual thing, tbh. Its' the most crap I've gotten in a game in a long while. But it reminded me starkly why I mostly only play with MeFightClub pals. The worst part is that none of the others on the team stood up to the ones who were doing it - not a peep. That's what's going to have to change for the culture to change.
FWIW, I've heard good things about a community called Gamers with Jobs as well. I have some former Day of Defeat clan friends who play there.
posted by gemmy at 7:59 PM on January 5, 2019 [16 favorites]
I had to wait for some repairs this morning, so I played Overwatch on an off time when none of my friends were on. I talked and tried to coordinate just like I do normally, because that's what makes the game so great. Of course that lasted about two matches until I just got too sick of the sex talk and the propositions, and just stayed silent for a few maps. There's only so many "Suck my d**" "what's your insta, let’s see if you’re bangable" and "give me your number"'s that you can stomach on a Saturday morning...
This is a fairly unusual thing, tbh. Its' the most crap I've gotten in a game in a long while. But it reminded me starkly why I mostly only play with MeFightClub pals. The worst part is that none of the others on the team stood up to the ones who were doing it - not a peep. That's what's going to have to change for the culture to change.
FWIW, I've heard good things about a community called Gamers with Jobs as well. I have some former Day of Defeat clan friends who play there.
posted by gemmy at 7:59 PM on January 5, 2019 [16 favorites]
Stuff like this is why the only thing I'll touch with more than one player these days is correspondence chess.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:15 PM on January 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:15 PM on January 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
anything that anyone describes as a "social experiment" is a complete Dumpster fire
20 years ago, in the early days of "Reality TV"*, half the shows would call themselves "Social Experiments" and I saw that was when "Social Experiment" and "Dumpster Fire" became synonymous.
*quote marks for sarcasm
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:35 PM on January 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
20 years ago, in the early days of "Reality TV"*, half the shows would call themselves "Social Experiments" and I saw that was when "Social Experiment" and "Dumpster Fire" became synonymous.
*quote marks for sarcasm
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:35 PM on January 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
i mean really every social experiment since stanford prison has had the sole purpose of "let's make people hurt each other for our amusement"
posted by poffin boffin at 8:54 PM on January 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:54 PM on January 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
Gee, I wonder why a female gamer (whether she's "real" or not, whatever the fuck this even means) might want to hide her identity because she'll inevitably be doxxed, stalked and harassed.
This part is what makes it seem like a no-brainer to me that if esports want to be taken seriously as an actual thing, the organizations that put the competitions together need to step up and start acting like professional organizations. Imagine a professional sports team on this level signing someone without knowing anything about them just because they saw them and they looked cool. There's already a background check process here--they just, what, didn't feel like waiting until it was completed? It's ridiculous that the future consequences for all of this are going to be on female players, and not on the people who actually screwed up. Those people are just going to aim to do better. Great.
posted by Sequence at 9:00 PM on January 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
This part is what makes it seem like a no-brainer to me that if esports want to be taken seriously as an actual thing, the organizations that put the competitions together need to step up and start acting like professional organizations. Imagine a professional sports team on this level signing someone without knowing anything about them just because they saw them and they looked cool. There's already a background check process here--they just, what, didn't feel like waiting until it was completed? It's ridiculous that the future consequences for all of this are going to be on female players, and not on the people who actually screwed up. Those people are just going to aim to do better. Great.
posted by Sequence at 9:00 PM on January 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
A lot of my friends watch OWL and it's difficult for me to understand how they can overlook or at least temporarily set aside the extreme toxicity they factually know is going on in the background to enjoy the actual games bc I'm sure as fuck not capable of that.
I watch OWL and experience said cognitive dissonance. The only way I reconcile it with myself is by footnoting any idol worship I see w/ relevant citations of toxicity from a standpoint of it not being OK (e.g. in a thread about Taimou, replying to pro-taimou commentors w/ "isn't that the dude that said xyz? yeh it is! fuck that guy" link included).
I will admit, though, that my interest waned hard during the season due to how shitty some of the human beings in the league have shown themselves to be. This carries over into streamers in general. There was a period of a couple months where every other week I'd say to a buddy "so and so said xyz" and then we'd have one fewer stream to watch.
Imagine a professional sports team on this level signing someone without knowing anything about them just because they saw them and they looked cool.
I agree that professionalism is important if OW and other Esports want to be taken seriously, but this is contenders, which is the equivalent of the minor leagues in other professional sports. I also don't think they got to the point of playing/etc. Putting someone on a roster pending a background check prior to scrimms or actual games (depending on the policy) doesn't really strike me as unprofessional, especially at this farm level (also, I'm not sure they actually "signed"?)
This story seems to more highlight just how ugly the community is and serves as an extension of the copious examples we have of shitty male behavior left to fester and proliferate in online communities (e.g. twitter, reddit, twitch, really any environment where doxxing can occur).
posted by avalonian at 10:16 PM on January 5, 2019
I watch OWL and experience said cognitive dissonance. The only way I reconcile it with myself is by footnoting any idol worship I see w/ relevant citations of toxicity from a standpoint of it not being OK (e.g. in a thread about Taimou, replying to pro-taimou commentors w/ "isn't that the dude that said xyz? yeh it is! fuck that guy" link included).
I will admit, though, that my interest waned hard during the season due to how shitty some of the human beings in the league have shown themselves to be. This carries over into streamers in general. There was a period of a couple months where every other week I'd say to a buddy "so and so said xyz" and then we'd have one fewer stream to watch.
Imagine a professional sports team on this level signing someone without knowing anything about them just because they saw them and they looked cool.
I agree that professionalism is important if OW and other Esports want to be taken seriously, but this is contenders, which is the equivalent of the minor leagues in other professional sports. I also don't think they got to the point of playing/etc. Putting someone on a roster pending a background check prior to scrimms or actual games (depending on the policy) doesn't really strike me as unprofessional, especially at this farm level (also, I'm not sure they actually "signed"?)
This story seems to more highlight just how ugly the community is and serves as an extension of the copious examples we have of shitty male behavior left to fester and proliferate in online communities (e.g. twitter, reddit, twitch, really any environment where doxxing can occur).
posted by avalonian at 10:16 PM on January 5, 2019
How is it a dumpster fire? Was the aim of the experiment to shed light on toxic gaming? If so, it appears they further proved that the dumpster fire already existed. Unless I'm missing something.
posted by Brocktoon at 1:02 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Brocktoon at 1:02 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
How it was a dumpster fire: part of the toxicity in gaming that women are subjected to... is increased scrutiny that men don't have to deal with, and disbelief that a woman could have elite gaming skills. (Because going clicky-clicky on some buttons requires a dick? I've never understood that part of it.)
This 'social experiment' justifies subjecting women in gaming to increased scrutiny in the future and disbelieving in women's gaming skills, because they might be fakes like Ellie. So great, they've raised awareness of this type of harassment by giving bullies more justification to do much more of this type of harassment.
posted by wiremommy at 2:23 AM on January 6, 2019 [35 favorites]
This 'social experiment' justifies subjecting women in gaming to increased scrutiny in the future and disbelieving in women's gaming skills, because they might be fakes like Ellie. So great, they've raised awareness of this type of harassment by giving bullies more justification to do much more of this type of harassment.
posted by wiremommy at 2:23 AM on January 6, 2019 [35 favorites]
What a shitshow. Second Wind sure looks bad here, first for not protecting their player and second for fucking up so badly they hired someone they didn't even know.
But I reserve my real anger for Blizzard. The massive profitable company that makes Overwatch. The company that controls the Overwatch e-sports scene, and the game, and allows this kind of harassment to happen. They are ultimately responsible for their own community. They do nothing to lead by example, they mostly turn a blind eye to the ongoing regular harassment of women in voicecomms in their games. They let this happen because they are bad at their job of managing the Overwatch community. It's infuriating.
(To be fair, I don't know of a major game company that is good at it. I think Riot Games NA broadcast team, despite their huge sexism problems at the company, did a reasonably good job when Maria was playing. They protected her from their monstrous fans as best they could. Shame about her monstrous coach though. Or the team co-owner, who coincidentally is now a major Overwatch caster.)
I'd love recommendations for other gaming communities too. I've been enjoying reading /r/GirlGamers, but as a man I don't really feel it's appropriate for me to participate in the discussions there.
posted by Nelson at 2:48 AM on January 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
But I reserve my real anger for Blizzard. The massive profitable company that makes Overwatch. The company that controls the Overwatch e-sports scene, and the game, and allows this kind of harassment to happen. They are ultimately responsible for their own community. They do nothing to lead by example, they mostly turn a blind eye to the ongoing regular harassment of women in voicecomms in their games. They let this happen because they are bad at their job of managing the Overwatch community. It's infuriating.
(To be fair, I don't know of a major game company that is good at it. I think Riot Games NA broadcast team, despite their huge sexism problems at the company, did a reasonably good job when Maria was playing. They protected her from their monstrous fans as best they could. Shame about her monstrous coach though. Or the team co-owner, who coincidentally is now a major Overwatch caster.)
I'd love recommendations for other gaming communities too. I've been enjoying reading /r/GirlGamers, but as a man I don't really feel it's appropriate for me to participate in the discussions there.
posted by Nelson at 2:48 AM on January 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
What a shitty situation. This might be a good place to provide some rare positivity around women and eSports to show that things can be better.
As a Rocket League fan, I’m glad that I can point out at least one instance of a female eSports professional simply Doing Well and having the full respect of the relevant eSports scene: Karma, the captain of Splyce, a team that recently qualified for the next season of RLCS (Rocket League Championship Series, the biggest tournament in the game) after dominating the RLRS (Rival Series) and the promotion/relegation tournament that followed. Here’s a brief interview with her. She frequently streams on Twitch if you want to see her in action. As far as I know, she hasn’t been the target of any harassment or doxxing (just the usual background noise level Twitch chat disrespect from non-regular viewers). The Rocket League community seems genuinely thrilled to have her!
RL is a rising eSport, and while the combination of rocket cars and soccer is stereotypically not very appealing to women (as evidenced by viewership statistics of popular RL youtubers), I can only hope that Karma playing at the highest level would inspire other girls and women to pick up the game, and for more of them to work towards becoming professionals at it. I’ll certainly root for Splyce to land a top 4 spot in the NA RLCS league play so they’d make it to the LAN finals to battle the best of EU and Oceania!
posted by jklaiho at 4:20 AM on January 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
As a Rocket League fan, I’m glad that I can point out at least one instance of a female eSports professional simply Doing Well and having the full respect of the relevant eSports scene: Karma, the captain of Splyce, a team that recently qualified for the next season of RLCS (Rocket League Championship Series, the biggest tournament in the game) after dominating the RLRS (Rival Series) and the promotion/relegation tournament that followed. Here’s a brief interview with her. She frequently streams on Twitch if you want to see her in action. As far as I know, she hasn’t been the target of any harassment or doxxing (just the usual background noise level Twitch chat disrespect from non-regular viewers). The Rocket League community seems genuinely thrilled to have her!
RL is a rising eSport, and while the combination of rocket cars and soccer is stereotypically not very appealing to women (as evidenced by viewership statistics of popular RL youtubers), I can only hope that Karma playing at the highest level would inspire other girls and women to pick up the game, and for more of them to work towards becoming professionals at it. I’ll certainly root for Splyce to land a top 4 spot in the NA RLCS league play so they’d make it to the LAN finals to battle the best of EU and Oceania!
posted by jklaiho at 4:20 AM on January 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
I would wager it's not "popular" with women because they would rather not get doxed and harrassed.
posted by Brocktoon at 5:46 AM on January 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 5:46 AM on January 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
How could this experiment possibly do more damage if the mechanisms are already actively in place to discourage and prevent women from playing?
posted by Brocktoon at 5:50 AM on January 6, 2019
posted by Brocktoon at 5:50 AM on January 6, 2019
Because it's not like there exists some kind of threshold on the number of mechanisms that exist to keep women out. Women gamers were already questioned about whether or not they were real; this adds more fuel to that fire. This stunt makes it more likely that women will be subject to even more scrutiny in the future. I'm not sure what the confusion is here.
posted by sockermom at 6:03 AM on January 6, 2019 [30 favorites]
posted by sockermom at 6:03 AM on January 6, 2019 [30 favorites]
I'm a fan of the community over at QuarterToThree
It will be much better now that Toxic Overlord Brad Wardell has left the building.
posted by Pendragon at 6:45 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
It will be much better now that Toxic Overlord Brad Wardell has left the building.
posted by Pendragon at 6:45 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Women gamers were already questioned about whether or not they were real; this adds more fuel to that fire.
100% this. There's so much gate keeping already done to actively keep so called "casuls" out of the game. Oh you play mobile games, you're not a gamer, oh you play with a controller, you're not a gamer, oh you are a woman or lgtbq you're not really a gamer, there's always some thing they'll use against you.
Anytime someone challenges the established gaming world for not being inclusive, for not having diversity, for not allowing people to play easy mode, whatever it is, someone always comes in and finds a way to shit on these individuals. It's very exhausting.
Believe the people in this thread who are sharing their stories of being shut-out, shut-down, and harassed. I have met so many people who tell me that they'd love to be more involved in gaming and online community play, but they choose to play solo or not play at all because they actively fear the harassment/abuse they receive anytime they dare to enter this world.
*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 6:50 AM on January 6, 2019 [20 favorites]
100% this. There's so much gate keeping already done to actively keep so called "casuls" out of the game. Oh you play mobile games, you're not a gamer, oh you play with a controller, you're not a gamer, oh you are a woman or lgtbq you're not really a gamer, there's always some thing they'll use against you.
Anytime someone challenges the established gaming world for not being inclusive, for not having diversity, for not allowing people to play easy mode, whatever it is, someone always comes in and finds a way to shit on these individuals. It's very exhausting.
Believe the people in this thread who are sharing their stories of being shut-out, shut-down, and harassed. I have met so many people who tell me that they'd love to be more involved in gaming and online community play, but they choose to play solo or not play at all because they actively fear the harassment/abuse they receive anytime they dare to enter this world.
*sighs*
posted by Fizz at 6:50 AM on January 6, 2019 [20 favorites]
Apparently Games Done Quick 2019 is starting shortly? And I could not give a shit. I don't want to see a bunch of DUDES playing games. On the other hand I would watch the hell out of a thing like an Overwatch tournament where EVERY PLAYER is a woman. Why isn't this a thing? WHY
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:29 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:29 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
They aren't getting questioned because they aren't trying. This is the point of the experiment, I think. How can you prove the mechanism exists if there are no conditions available to test it?
posted by Brocktoon at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2019
posted by Brocktoon at 7:32 AM on January 6, 2019
They aren't getting questioned because they aren't trying. This is the point of the experiment, I think. How can you prove the mechanism exists if there are no conditions available to test it?
And what is your proposed experiment for determining whether or not sexism exists.
posted by nightrecordings at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2019 [14 favorites]
And what is your proposed experiment for determining whether or not sexism exists.
posted by nightrecordings at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2019 [14 favorites]
How could this experiment possibly do more damage if the mechanisms are already actively in place to discourage and prevent women from playing?
Brocktoon, I'm not sure why you're so focused on the experiment side of things and not focusing on the end result which is that this is going to make it more difficult for women to establish themselves in competitive gaming circles and eSports.
Women, people of colour, lgtbq, and other minorities already face a lot of gate-keeping when it comes to the gaming community. Now gamergate style bros will use this as a way to point at other competitive women and claim that they're not real people or real gamers.
The other people in this thread who are sharing their experience with gaming as women and as a part of other disenfranchised groups and communities, listen to them and believe them when they say that this kind of shit makes everything more toxic and more difficult to break through.
posted by Fizz at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2019 [14 favorites]
Brocktoon, I'm not sure why you're so focused on the experiment side of things and not focusing on the end result which is that this is going to make it more difficult for women to establish themselves in competitive gaming circles and eSports.
Women, people of colour, lgtbq, and other minorities already face a lot of gate-keeping when it comes to the gaming community. Now gamergate style bros will use this as a way to point at other competitive women and claim that they're not real people or real gamers.
The other people in this thread who are sharing their experience with gaming as women and as a part of other disenfranchised groups and communities, listen to them and believe them when they say that this kind of shit makes everything more toxic and more difficult to break through.
posted by Fizz at 8:01 AM on January 6, 2019 [14 favorites]
I, as least, always call out shittiness in coms and report the offenders afterward. I usually have one or two notifications when I log back in that "action was taken" based on my reports. Obviously I don't know how much or to whom, but I keep trying.
I obviously don't deal with much myself directly (I get called "autistic" about once a day) but I have never been in a game where a female player spoke without getting told that she "has a sexy voice." It's fucking infuriating.
posted by Scattercat at 9:12 AM on January 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
I obviously don't deal with much myself directly (I get called "autistic" about once a day) but I have never been in a game where a female player spoke without getting told that she "has a sexy voice." It's fucking infuriating.
posted by Scattercat at 9:12 AM on January 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh but see if you call it out, you get accused of being a "white knight". The sexist monsters have a way of protecting their sexist privilege.
posted by Nelson at 10:48 AM on January 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:48 AM on January 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm focused on the end result because it is already impossible for women to succeed. I don't see how it could possibly get any more difficult for women in this environment. They aren't even trying because of the toxic mechanism already in place, and who can blame them. We can talk and talk about this specific problem and that's fine, but I also can't get mad at someone for trying a new approach. They wanted to observe and document what would happen to a woman in the top 10 using a simulation, perhaps because they didn't want to hurt an actual woman by exposing her to doxxing and harrassment. Assuming that their method somehow justifies sexist behavior is part of the problem. Personally I reject all attempts at justification for sexist behavior, I don't find that difficult, and it's time Blizzard does the same.
posted by Brocktoon at 11:13 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Brocktoon at 11:13 AM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
• Overwatch Contenders controversy has once again made things more difficult for women in esports [Rock Papers Shotgun]
“In the end, though, who Ellie was and what their motivations were are secondary to the damaging effect that they’ve had on women in the esports industry. Those who immediately disbelieved Ellie often claimed that it had nothing to do with gender, and yet these same kinds of accusations always seems to come up for top female players, regardless of their veracity.posted by Fizz at 6:45 PM on January 6, 2019 [9 favorites]
The Overwatch League’s only female player, Kim “Geguri” Seyeon, was forced to prove that she wasn’t cheating after receiving harassment for her performance, including another pro player threatening: “I may visit Geguri’s house with a knife in hand. I am not joking.” And in 2015, a Hearthstone player known as Lee “MagicAmy” Hyerim was the centre of an incredibly similar story to this one. As reported by Kotaku at the time, pros and fans alike believed Lee was simply a front for someone – a man, naturally – who was really playing the games. Lee was cleared of suspicion by her team, Tempo Storm, who wrote: “We believe that MagicAmy is one person and that Hyerim Lee is indeed who she claims to be. This is based on multiple eyewitness and firsthand testimonies claiming that they interacted with her individually… The personal information she has given us, combined with her employment records with Lunarch Studios, relationships with players, and the fact that she has met people face-to-face is enough to confirm her identity.”
It’s not hard to see how the current situation will be used as yet more ammunition to doubt women who try to go pro in future.”
I've been in a WoW guild with folks from Gamers with Jobs since launch, 15 years ago. They also had players in a ton of other games. I haven't been to the website in years, but every gamer I've ever interacted that is affiliated with GWJ with has been pretty great.
As to competition games, despite ranking top of the lists in a number of games, I've unilaterally refused to do competitions because I'm a woman, I'm old by gamer demographics, I'm certainly not hot to kids 40 years younger than me, and I just do not have time to be harassed again after gamergate.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:22 PM on January 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
As to competition games, despite ranking top of the lists in a number of games, I've unilaterally refused to do competitions because I'm a woman, I'm old by gamer demographics, I'm certainly not hot to kids 40 years younger than me, and I just do not have time to be harassed again after gamergate.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:22 PM on January 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Apparently Games Done Quick 2019 is starting shortly? And I could not give a shit. I don't want to see a bunch of DUDES playing games.
GDQ is still largely a boyzone, but every event seems to include more women, both on the couch and behind the controller.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:20 PM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
GDQ is still largely a boyzone, but every event seems to include more women, both on the couch and behind the controller.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:20 PM on January 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
The RPS article Fizz linked recently points out that one of the perpetrators of the fraud is "ex-Second Wind player Colin “Coluge” Arai (who was dropped for poor behaviour and boosting)". So some toxic piece of shit gets kicked out of the community, comes back, commits sexist fraud. "It was all just a prank" or maybe "an experiment" or something. Fuck this guy.
posted by Nelson at 2:23 AM on January 7, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 2:23 AM on January 7, 2019 [7 favorites]
I had to wait for some repairs this morning, so I played Overwatch on an off time when none of my friends were on. I talked and tried to coordinate just like I do normally, because that's what makes the game so great. Of course that lasted about two matches until I just got too sick of the sex talk and the propositions, and just stayed silent for a few maps.
Ugh, really sorry to hear that, Gemmy. You are always really great to game with. As always, please feel free to invite me to group anytime you see me online. I've been playing OW a bit with my son but we've mostly stuck to Play vs AI because of toxic people who trash on anyone who isn't very good.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:03 AM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ugh, really sorry to hear that, Gemmy. You are always really great to game with. As always, please feel free to invite me to group anytime you see me online. I've been playing OW a bit with my son but we've mostly stuck to Play vs AI because of toxic people who trash on anyone who isn't very good.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:03 AM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
The funniest thing about people who "trash on someone who isn't very good" is that if they're playing with you, they're just about at your skill level. They're just as much trash as you are. Most gamers know this too, it can make for an amusing comeback to a trash talker. "If you're so good why are you playing here in Bronze with me?"
OTOH all this toxicity is awful. I really don't understand why Blizzard accepts it. "Well, gamers gonna be shitty what can we do?" is their best response.
posted by Nelson at 9:02 AM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
OTOH all this toxicity is awful. I really don't understand why Blizzard accepts it. "Well, gamers gonna be shitty what can we do?" is their best response.
posted by Nelson at 9:02 AM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Blizz accepts it because the accountants don't distinguish between dollars earned from assholes vs. decent human beings. That's because it's a business. The only way to make them change is for it to be more profitable for them to remove trolls than permit them. And since removing trolls not only costs revenue (fewer trolls) but has expenses (moderation costs), there would need to be even more good people arriving than trolls chased away. This is probably a super hard sell at the boardroom level. Also, Bobby Kotick is a notorious asshole, albeit a fairly savvy businessperson, so it's just not going to happen without demonstrable proof of increased profits with fewer trolls.
I am reasonably sure that any lasting non-toxic eSport is going to have to be founded from first principles as a safe, welcoming space. And it's going to be a much harder to run business than the free-for-alls we have now. So I dunno.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:30 AM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
I am reasonably sure that any lasting non-toxic eSport is going to have to be founded from first principles as a safe, welcoming space. And it's going to be a much harder to run business than the free-for-alls we have now. So I dunno.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:30 AM on January 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
I mean if you want to try to make a difference, than make a public stink about boycotting eSports sponsors that support toxic teams. That's probably the most any of us can do individually.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:32 AM on January 7, 2019
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:32 AM on January 7, 2019
The funniest thing about people who "trash on someone who isn't very good" is that if they're playing with you, they're just about at your skill level.
I get your point, but I was referring to my son, who just got his first computer for Christmas. A couple of people wrote in chat they were reporting my son for "throwing" the game because he's not very good yet. We were playing Mystery Heroes in Arcade because it can be a fun way to have random heroes selected for you, you know, aside from the toxic people.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:24 PM on January 7, 2019
I get your point, but I was referring to my son, who just got his first computer for Christmas. A couple of people wrote in chat they were reporting my son for "throwing" the game because he's not very good yet. We were playing Mystery Heroes in Arcade because it can be a fun way to have random heroes selected for you, you know, aside from the toxic people.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:24 PM on January 7, 2019
Why are people taking the "social experiment" explanation/justification at face value? As far as I can tell, it's only been put forward by this Coluge person who is anything but a disinterested party. How do we know that the bad consequences that this stunt is almost certainly going to inflict on women gamers are unintended and not, say, the whole point of the stunt? Why does Coluge (and Punisher, who I don't think we've heard anything from yet) get any benefit of the doubt?
posted by mhum at 2:36 PM on January 7, 2019
posted by mhum at 2:36 PM on January 7, 2019
Oh, sorry. I misread. It seems the "social experiment" explanation was communicated by Aspen the streamer, allegedly via direct communication from Punisher. Which, again, still leaves us with the question: why should we believe this?
posted by mhum at 2:41 PM on January 7, 2019
posted by mhum at 2:41 PM on January 7, 2019
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posted by tobascodagama at 5:54 PM on January 5, 2019 [29 favorites]