Link suggested between spikes in child abuse and timing of report cards
January 13, 2019 3:43 PM Subscribe
Content warning: Abuse of children
Dr. Melissa Bright, an early-childhood research scientist at the University of Florida, wanted to know if there was any truth to pediatricians' stories about child abuse spiking after report cards' release. After analyzing a year's worth of state child welfare data alongside schools' report card release dates, Dr. Bright and her colleagues found no spike in abuse cases when report cards were released Monday through Thursday; however, abuse rates were found to be four times higher when report cards were released on Fridays. (JAMA study abstract.)
If verified, the findings suggest a clear policy mandate: to decrease incidence of child physical abuse linked to report cards, schools and school districts should avoid issuing report cards on Fridays.
However, the issue of abuse and school performance is complicated in Florida by the fact that some of the state's counties still permit corporal punishment to be exercised in schools.
Dr. Melissa Bright, an early-childhood research scientist at the University of Florida, wanted to know if there was any truth to pediatricians' stories about child abuse spiking after report cards' release. After analyzing a year's worth of state child welfare data alongside schools' report card release dates, Dr. Bright and her colleagues found no spike in abuse cases when report cards were released Monday through Thursday; however, abuse rates were found to be four times higher when report cards were released on Fridays. (JAMA study abstract.)
If verified, the findings suggest a clear policy mandate: to decrease incidence of child physical abuse linked to report cards, schools and school districts should avoid issuing report cards on Fridays.
However, the issue of abuse and school performance is complicated in Florida by the fact that some of the state's counties still permit corporal punishment to be exercised in schools.
I was having coffee with a domestic violence attorney colleague recently. We were talking about how "everyone knows DV spikes during the Super Bowl" is just another way of absolving abusers of their behavior. This idea-that kids are abused when report cards are released--also fits into that way we have of looking at interpersonal violence as the victim's fault or as something caused by a thing other than the abuser themself.
It's very complicated--the interpersonal dynamics in households with abuse; the cycles of abuse; the triggers of abuse. But this is interesting. If something this simple can help, I hope it is widely-adopted. Then we can work on keeping guns out of the hands of men in the US with a history of domestic violence.
posted by crush at 4:52 PM on January 13, 2019 [25 favorites]
It's very complicated--the interpersonal dynamics in households with abuse; the cycles of abuse; the triggers of abuse. But this is interesting. If something this simple can help, I hope it is widely-adopted. Then we can work on keeping guns out of the hands of men in the US with a history of domestic violence.
posted by crush at 4:52 PM on January 13, 2019 [25 favorites]
I don’t understand why Friday would be four times as likely for abuse to occur. Is it because those inclined to abuse their children are more tired from the work-week on Friday? Or because they are likely to be home with the child on the following day? Or because Friday night is when the parent is drinking more? Or something else?
posted by darkstar at 4:59 PM on January 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by darkstar at 4:59 PM on January 13, 2019 [2 favorites]
Bruises, cuts, and trauma are less likely to be as noticeable come Monday.
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 5:06 PM on January 13, 2019 [63 favorites]
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 5:06 PM on January 13, 2019 [63 favorites]
The thing that bothers me about this study is that, from reading the abstract, it has some properties that many p-hacked studies also have.
The relationship is weirdly specific. If it were just that abuse increases on days after report cards, I wouldn't be very skeptical. But the fact that it happens only if the report card comes out a specific day of the week, and there's no general relationship -- that's weird. It's gotta be a pretty small fraction of abuse reports that fall into that category. What are the odds that just by random fluctuations, you see this pattern on any two successive days of the week?
Militating against this is the fact that Friday is an unusual day, the start of the weekend, and it sort of makes sense that abuse would go up when children are spending the most time at home. But those are just post-hoc stories, until we know otherwise.
I don't really have enough knowledge personally of the statistical techniques they used to tell if they are used properly. I wish we lived in a world where I can just go "well, this passed review in a reasonable-looking journal so the methodology must have been fine" but based on the unfortunate history of every scientific field other than like particle physics, totally possible it's just bad.
posted by vogon_poet at 5:37 PM on January 13, 2019 [26 favorites]
The relationship is weirdly specific. If it were just that abuse increases on days after report cards, I wouldn't be very skeptical. But the fact that it happens only if the report card comes out a specific day of the week, and there's no general relationship -- that's weird. It's gotta be a pretty small fraction of abuse reports that fall into that category. What are the odds that just by random fluctuations, you see this pattern on any two successive days of the week?
Militating against this is the fact that Friday is an unusual day, the start of the weekend, and it sort of makes sense that abuse would go up when children are spending the most time at home. But those are just post-hoc stories, until we know otherwise.
I don't really have enough knowledge personally of the statistical techniques they used to tell if they are used properly. I wish we lived in a world where I can just go "well, this passed review in a reasonable-looking journal so the methodology must have been fine" but based on the unfortunate history of every scientific field other than like particle physics, totally possible it's just bad.
posted by vogon_poet at 5:37 PM on January 13, 2019 [26 favorites]
Maybe report cards just shouldn't have grades. Just "You might need to look in supplemental tutoring in subject X. Everything else is doing fine." You all apparently can't be trusted to know the details. Also if the grades are high you can't be trusted because then you start in with the helicoptering and the getting excited about a full ride to Harvard and the over-pressuring.
posted by bleep at 5:38 PM on January 13, 2019 [18 favorites]
posted by bleep at 5:38 PM on January 13, 2019 [18 favorites]
Speaking only about the statistics of the paper, this is a result I would want to see replicated before I put a lot of stock in the association. The statistical power is relatively low, and the study seems like it could have been designed in such a way as to go fishing for a significant result. I'm too lazy to check whether the result would still be significant if they did some kind of multiple testing correction, but it doesn't really matter.
(on preview, looks like vogon_poet beat me to it).
posted by quaking fajita at 5:40 PM on January 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
(on preview, looks like vogon_poet beat me to it).
posted by quaking fajita at 5:40 PM on January 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
I stand by my position that parents probably can't be trusted to know grades without hurting their kid one way or another. We're all too just too on edge right now.
posted by bleep at 5:46 PM on January 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by bleep at 5:46 PM on January 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
I should clarify -- I don't think anyone can argue that there aren't parents that abuse their children after seeing report cards. I also agree personally with the case for getting rid of grades entirely or at least de-emphasizing them a huge amount, especially before high school.
But the claim in the paper is weird and somewhat counterintuitive (abuse goes up a huge amount only on one day of the week and not in general) and has a policy implication, so I definitely think moderate skepticism is reasonable.
posted by vogon_poet at 6:05 PM on January 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
But the claim in the paper is weird and somewhat counterintuitive (abuse goes up a huge amount only on one day of the week and not in general) and has a policy implication, so I definitely think moderate skepticism is reasonable.
posted by vogon_poet at 6:05 PM on January 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm just commenting to throw my hat in with the "this is likely p-hacked, and even if it weren't abusive parents would just find some other excuse to be abusive, but letter grades are dumb anyway" camp.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:06 PM on January 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 6:06 PM on January 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
As another data point, for a while I went to a school that didn't do letter grades but "evaluations" ("gifted" school) and I was floundering badly without a proper metric to understand my progress, and the "evaluations" were just as prone to teacher bias and parental judgement as letter grades. But then again my parents never hit me regardless, I'm sure some of my peers in that school were getting beaten for bad "evaluations" just as they would be for letter grades.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:17 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:17 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
I'm saying skip evaluations and just let the teachers track if students are doing well or if they need more help. Let the parent know if they need to invest in tutoring because student is working very hard and needs more outside help. Also, pay teachers a living wage and hire more of them, and give kids healthy meals for free.
posted by bleep at 6:21 PM on January 13, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:21 PM on January 13, 2019 [13 favorites]
tl:Dr: even without letter grades, abusers gonna abuse.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:21 PM on January 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 6:21 PM on January 13, 2019 [7 favorites]
and the "evaluations" were just as prone to teacher bias and parental judgement as letter grades.
I, er, feel like I know this school or one notably similar, and yes: I once was told that I "often" did all my homework instead of "always," despite another part of the document indicating I had done all my assignments. When I asked the teacher what the deal was, I was told that she couldn't possibly know whether I would "always" do my homework in every class all the time, so she said "often." Which, yeah, there's no system that can't be used poorly.
There was another school I didn't go to that (used to, I think they may have stopped with this eventually) would give lengthy narrative evaluations and then had secret letter grades, which were only revealed a couple years into high school for college purposes. Which was intended to take away the stress from grades, but always seemed like the worst of all possible worlds to me since they were still there with no realtime accountability for how they got assigned.
posted by zachlipton at 6:29 PM on January 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
I, er, feel like I know this school or one notably similar, and yes: I once was told that I "often" did all my homework instead of "always," despite another part of the document indicating I had done all my assignments. When I asked the teacher what the deal was, I was told that she couldn't possibly know whether I would "always" do my homework in every class all the time, so she said "often." Which, yeah, there's no system that can't be used poorly.
There was another school I didn't go to that (used to, I think they may have stopped with this eventually) would give lengthy narrative evaluations and then had secret letter grades, which were only revealed a couple years into high school for college purposes. Which was intended to take away the stress from grades, but always seemed like the worst of all possible worlds to me since they were still there with no realtime accountability for how they got assigned.
posted by zachlipton at 6:29 PM on January 13, 2019 [5 favorites]
The good news re: p-hacking is that this study seems incredibly easy to replicate with access to more data, and that data should be fairly easy for researchers to access.
posted by sciatrix at 6:35 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 6:35 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
I don’t understand why Friday would be four times as likely for abuse to occur
because people are more likely to be drinking on fridays?
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 7:27 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
because people are more likely to be drinking on fridays?
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 7:27 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
> When I asked the teacher what the deal was, I was told that she couldn't possibly know whether I would "always" do my homework in every class all the time, so she said "often."
Haha, that reminds me of when I was a Verizon rep and any customer's rating of you below a 10 was unacceptable to management. We would get chewed out for getting a 9 from someone who typed in additional comments like "Only Jesus can be perfect."
posted by glonous keming at 7:33 PM on January 13, 2019 [33 favorites]
Haha, that reminds me of when I was a Verizon rep and any customer's rating of you below a 10 was unacceptable to management. We would get chewed out for getting a 9 from someone who typed in additional comments like "Only Jesus can be perfect."
posted by glonous keming at 7:33 PM on January 13, 2019 [33 favorites]
any customer's rating of you below a 10 was unacceptable
Any "manager" that does this, at any level, is a goatfucker who should have bad things done to him/her. They are utterly failing to do even the basics of management, and the system they are operating within is rotten from the very core. The only way to fix it is with fire.
...which is why, naturally, you will shortly find this generalized system rolled out across the whole of the US. Welfare first, of course.
posted by aramaic at 8:02 PM on January 13, 2019 [17 favorites]
Any "manager" that does this, at any level, is a goatfucker who should have bad things done to him/her. They are utterly failing to do even the basics of management, and the system they are operating within is rotten from the very core. The only way to fix it is with fire.
...which is why, naturally, you will shortly find this generalized system rolled out across the whole of the US. Welfare first, of course.
posted by aramaic at 8:02 PM on January 13, 2019 [17 favorites]
Also here for the "This has all the hallmarks of a spurious statistical result, but I'm sure kids get hit (ostensibly) for report cards." I never got hit, but my dad was scary when he was angry, and so I hid evidence of bad grades when I was younger.
posted by Made of Star Stuff at 8:11 PM on January 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Made of Star Stuff at 8:11 PM on January 13, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm also curious wether incidence rates of abuse are higher in general on fridays, regardless of if report cards were released
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:29 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:29 PM on January 13, 2019 [10 favorites]
I got the shit knocked out of me on the regular. Grade card time was especially bad, I could count on a beating for any mark below a B. I had a panic attack when I got a C in penmanship (fuck cursive) and begged my teacher for a B. She didn't believe me when I said I'd get beaten for it. She changed her tune when I showed her the welts from the electrical cord.
That was the FIRST time CPS removed me from my home.
posted by MissySedai at 8:31 PM on January 13, 2019 [37 favorites]
That was the FIRST time CPS removed me from my home.
posted by MissySedai at 8:31 PM on January 13, 2019 [37 favorites]
Wow. I come from a place that's really, really into standardized testing and has been for a long time, and we valorize some downright self-abusive academic practices, but the key word is self-abusive.
I'm now really curious how this goes in China. The stakes are higher and we don't have a great record of corporal punishment.
Ah, apparently 47 percent of parents have beaten their children and that's the undoubtedly an underestimate.
Although corporal punishment was universally banned in schools in 1986 (same article), so that's nice.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 8:48 PM on January 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm now really curious how this goes in China. The stakes are higher and we don't have a great record of corporal punishment.
Ah, apparently 47 percent of parents have beaten their children and that's the undoubtedly an underestimate.
Although corporal punishment was universally banned in schools in 1986 (same article), so that's nice.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 8:48 PM on January 13, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don’t understand why Friday would be four times as likely for abuse to occur.
I can think of plenty of reasons for that:
1) Parents more likely to be drinking on Friday.
2) Parents have all weekend to continue to get angry; there is no "yell at kid and then go to bed because there's work in the morning."
3) Parent knows kid's not going to school in the morning - assumes any marks will fade over the weekend.
4) Parents more tired, more nervous about paycheck (if it's an off-paycheck week, money's likely tight; if it's a paycheck week, money is obviously not going to stretch as far as they'd like).
5) Parents and kids both likely to be awake longer; more time together = more likelihood of abuse.
6) Parent was looking forward to relaxing over the weekend; bad report card means stress, means taking out all the stress on the kid.
7) Single parent's abusive boyfriend/girlfriend more likely to be around on a Friday.
8) Parent decides kid must be punished before church on Sunday. (Theoretically, this would apply to a report card at any time during the week - but a card on Tuesday may have been forgotten by Saturday afternoon.)
I'd expect the two strongest factors to be "drinking" and "more time" - A bad report card on Friday isn't a one-day opportunity for abuse; it's three days. I have no doubt that kids in abusive homes would face the same pattern over any bit of unpleasant news they brought home. It's just that report cards are a bit of news that are universal enough to gather statistics about.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:18 PM on January 13, 2019 [15 favorites]
I can think of plenty of reasons for that:
1) Parents more likely to be drinking on Friday.
2) Parents have all weekend to continue to get angry; there is no "yell at kid and then go to bed because there's work in the morning."
3) Parent knows kid's not going to school in the morning - assumes any marks will fade over the weekend.
4) Parents more tired, more nervous about paycheck (if it's an off-paycheck week, money's likely tight; if it's a paycheck week, money is obviously not going to stretch as far as they'd like).
5) Parents and kids both likely to be awake longer; more time together = more likelihood of abuse.
6) Parent was looking forward to relaxing over the weekend; bad report card means stress, means taking out all the stress on the kid.
7) Single parent's abusive boyfriend/girlfriend more likely to be around on a Friday.
8) Parent decides kid must be punished before church on Sunday. (Theoretically, this would apply to a report card at any time during the week - but a card on Tuesday may have been forgotten by Saturday afternoon.)
I'd expect the two strongest factors to be "drinking" and "more time" - A bad report card on Friday isn't a one-day opportunity for abuse; it's three days. I have no doubt that kids in abusive homes would face the same pattern over any bit of unpleasant news they brought home. It's just that report cards are a bit of news that are universal enough to gather statistics about.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:18 PM on January 13, 2019 [15 favorites]
"Let the parent know if they need to invest in tutoring because student is working very hard and needs more outside help."
Yeah, um, 'invest in tutoring' isn't really an option for... Let's just say everyone that is living pay-check-to-paycheck, or anyone that is on public assistance, or...
Even if you were to have a tutor, I think it's sort of difficult to keep impeccable grades when you are... Afraid.
And yeah, it seems to make sense to say 'hey, might as well just release grades on Monday, since there are no downsides to that'. That measure might help prevent one more beating per grading period. So, that's a plus.
Ideally grades are feedback system, and parents should have access to feedback in order to help their kids succeed. But violent abusive parents are never going to use such feedback in a positive manner. While there may be good reasons to change grading systems, doing it to prevent a beating per grading period is something that will impact every child whose parent isn't abusive.
We need a way to give feedback to parents that's meaningful, actionable, and ends up helping the students. We also need a way to protect children from abusive parents. These are distinct and separate problems.
posted by el io at 10:01 PM on January 13, 2019 [17 favorites]
Yeah, um, 'invest in tutoring' isn't really an option for... Let's just say everyone that is living pay-check-to-paycheck, or anyone that is on public assistance, or...
Even if you were to have a tutor, I think it's sort of difficult to keep impeccable grades when you are... Afraid.
And yeah, it seems to make sense to say 'hey, might as well just release grades on Monday, since there are no downsides to that'. That measure might help prevent one more beating per grading period. So, that's a plus.
Ideally grades are feedback system, and parents should have access to feedback in order to help their kids succeed. But violent abusive parents are never going to use such feedback in a positive manner. While there may be good reasons to change grading systems, doing it to prevent a beating per grading period is something that will impact every child whose parent isn't abusive.
We need a way to give feedback to parents that's meaningful, actionable, and ends up helping the students. We also need a way to protect children from abusive parents. These are distinct and separate problems.
posted by el io at 10:01 PM on January 13, 2019 [17 favorites]
After reading the article...
I just had a thought of something that may help; if you wan't to send the message to parents that it's not okay to hit their children, then the schools should be forbidden from hitting the children.
From the article: "In addition to distributing report cards earlier in the week, schools could consider including messaging to help prevent corporal punishment that crosses the line into abuse. But that’s a sticky issue in Florida, where some counties still allow corporal punishment in public schools."
Yeah, you can fuck the right off, Florida. Seriously.
posted by el io at 10:05 PM on January 13, 2019 [20 favorites]
I just had a thought of something that may help; if you wan't to send the message to parents that it's not okay to hit their children, then the schools should be forbidden from hitting the children.
From the article: "In addition to distributing report cards earlier in the week, schools could consider including messaging to help prevent corporal punishment that crosses the line into abuse. But that’s a sticky issue in Florida, where some counties still allow corporal punishment in public schools."
Yeah, you can fuck the right off, Florida. Seriously.
posted by el io at 10:05 PM on January 13, 2019 [20 favorites]
I can't believe we need a constitutional amendment to stop child abuse by states like Florida.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:53 AM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:53 AM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
Yeah, you can fuck the right off, Florida. Seriously.
Just to be precise:
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on January 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
Just to be precise:
Nineteen U.S. states currently allow public school personnel to use corporal punishment to discipline children from the time they start preschool until they graduate 12th grade; these states are: Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Mississippi, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and WyomingThose states represent about half the population of the U.S.
posted by Etrigan at 6:58 AM on January 14, 2019 [9 favorites]
Etrigan playing devil's advocate = eponysterical?
posted by es_de_bah at 7:04 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by es_de_bah at 7:04 AM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
Nineteen U.S. states currently allow public school personnel to use corporal punishment to discipline children
Is there a correlation between that and whether they are red states?
posted by pracowity at 7:16 AM on January 14, 2019
Is there a correlation between that and whether they are red states?
posted by pracowity at 7:16 AM on January 14, 2019
I think another trigger that affects people is exemplified by my aunt. She had absolutely no ability to stand up for herself to other adults. She put up with a lot of bullshit from adults around her that would fill her with rage, and she'd then take that out on us. My cousin (with whom I was raised) would get whipped regularly for his poor behavior and bad report cards between ages 6-14.
The schools her son went to would try to tell her that her beatings caused his anger issues, and that she needed to stop, but she ignored them. Ironically, whenever they tried to call or visit, or when they sent letters home about him, yep, she'd whip him.
That stopped at ~14, though. He was big enough by then to seriously hurt her, and she'd seen what he could do because he'd often beat me after she'd attacked him. Once they got into a fight and she realized his strength, she didn't even raise a voice to him, and allowed him to do what he wanted. That wasn't good, but what could she do to stop him? Hit him? He dropped out at 15. I've been told that he's stayed out of trouble since the mid-90s, and has his GED. Wisconsin ended corporal punishment in schools I believe in 1984, when he had already not gone to school for 2 years.
posted by droplet at 8:37 AM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
The schools her son went to would try to tell her that her beatings caused his anger issues, and that she needed to stop, but she ignored them. Ironically, whenever they tried to call or visit, or when they sent letters home about him, yep, she'd whip him.
That stopped at ~14, though. He was big enough by then to seriously hurt her, and she'd seen what he could do because he'd often beat me after she'd attacked him. Once they got into a fight and she realized his strength, she didn't even raise a voice to him, and allowed him to do what he wanted. That wasn't good, but what could she do to stop him? Hit him? He dropped out at 15. I've been told that he's stayed out of trouble since the mid-90s, and has his GED. Wisconsin ended corporal punishment in schools I believe in 1984, when he had already not gone to school for 2 years.
posted by droplet at 8:37 AM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
In other states, it often only pops up in real life at "military schools" and "troubled teen" residential facilities, where students are particularly isolated from parents and may not have easy access to anyone outside the schools. YAY.
That said, here are the county-by-county reports of corporal punishment as of 2013.
posted by sciatrix at 9:38 AM on January 14, 2019
That said, here are the county-by-county reports of corporal punishment as of 2013.
posted by sciatrix at 9:38 AM on January 14, 2019
Oh yes, Mississippi, where the teachers name the paddles and hang them up in the office. I personally never got corporal punishment at school, but as somebody tweeted, “anyone who was a ‘pleasure to have in class’ has an anxiety disorder now.”
posted by Countess Elena at 10:21 AM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:21 AM on January 14, 2019 [5 favorites]
My school had corporal punishment, and it was generally an option between calling your parents or accepting the swat on the butt. I got it twice, once for throwing rocks and once for fighting. My parents didn't beat, but plenty of people took the swat over the note because it was quick and didn't actually hurt, but it was always scary.
By the time I was in high school, they had mostly phased it out for in-school-suspension, which was at a separate facility (even in my tiny BFE school), was much more psychologically damaging, and the stakes that sent you there were so much lower.
If it were up to me, I'd abolish them both.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:18 AM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
By the time I was in high school, they had mostly phased it out for in-school-suspension, which was at a separate facility (even in my tiny BFE school), was much more psychologically damaging, and the stakes that sent you there were so much lower.
If it were up to me, I'd abolish them both.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:18 AM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm nopeing out of most of this for the sake of my mental health, but just a reminder that sober and financially "comfortable" people also physically abuse their children (though the latter in particular are probably less likely to be among those involved in this study where a child abuse hotline was called to report them).
posted by camyram at 1:35 PM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by camyram at 1:35 PM on January 14, 2019 [2 favorites]
On the corporal punishment in schools note - public caning was a thing at the school I was in (in Asia), during morning assembly, students who had committed major infractions were marched up on stage to be bent over and caned by the "discipline teacher", it was strong enough to leave welts or even bleed. The skill in caning was creating as loud a sound as possible with the strikes. There was also collective punishment, where the entire class got caned due to some discipline issues.
I honestly didn't think too much about it, like it didn't even occur to me that it would be a problem at all. I got collectively caned for something that had nothing to do with me, but... that's just life, I guess. I mean, that was simply the system for enforcing discipline in schools. We enforce discipline in the real world by throwing people in jail, which is arguably even more cruel. I think given the choice between taking 6 months jail time or 3 stripes across the back with a whip many would choose the latter, and society might even be better off - you don't automatically make them lose their income and job, for one - but this is a terribly problematic view I expect, biased by the environment I grew up in.
Now of course I have moved to a western country and was at first shocked to see corporal punishment being seen as verboten. I mean, I grew up reading Roald Dahl, and he describes in excruciating detail the cruel hazing and caning meted out in English boarding schools, far worse than anything I have heard described happening locally...
posted by xdvesper at 3:18 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
I honestly didn't think too much about it, like it didn't even occur to me that it would be a problem at all. I got collectively caned for something that had nothing to do with me, but... that's just life, I guess. I mean, that was simply the system for enforcing discipline in schools. We enforce discipline in the real world by throwing people in jail, which is arguably even more cruel. I think given the choice between taking 6 months jail time or 3 stripes across the back with a whip many would choose the latter, and society might even be better off - you don't automatically make them lose their income and job, for one - but this is a terribly problematic view I expect, biased by the environment I grew up in.
Now of course I have moved to a western country and was at first shocked to see corporal punishment being seen as verboten. I mean, I grew up reading Roald Dahl, and he describes in excruciating detail the cruel hazing and caning meted out in English boarding schools, far worse than anything I have heard described happening locally...
posted by xdvesper at 3:18 PM on January 14, 2019 [1 favorite]
I remember my friends being shocked to find out my parents used corporal punishment when I was a child. I felt they used it sensibly and with control (especially my mom) and I new the difference between that and the abuse I actually got from my step father later in life. I do think that if we're going to keep corporal punishment legal (and perhaps we should not, but if) parents should be educated about how to go about it and where the lines are.
Personally, I can think of a few times when my father tipped over from controlled correcting to striking out in anger, and I think that's problem a area most parents who aren't outright abusive have to look out for. It's something I experienced myself when babysitting younger siblings as a teen, learning to recognize when I let my stress decide whether or not to get physical, and how emotionally bad that could for both me and my little brother.
That inherent problem area makes me understand people who are simply against it.
on edit:go ahead and read 'parents' as 'parents and caretakers'
posted by es_de_bah at 12:29 PM on January 16, 2019
Personally, I can think of a few times when my father tipped over from controlled correcting to striking out in anger, and I think that's problem a area most parents who aren't outright abusive have to look out for. It's something I experienced myself when babysitting younger siblings as a teen, learning to recognize when I let my stress decide whether or not to get physical, and how emotionally bad that could for both me and my little brother.
That inherent problem area makes me understand people who are simply against it.
on edit:go ahead and read 'parents' as 'parents and caretakers'
posted by es_de_bah at 12:29 PM on January 16, 2019
I wonder how many parents don't know their kids' grades until the report cards come home. In my district, I can log into a website and see every grade for every assignment in every class. The day the actual paper report cards show up in the mail isn't particularly fraught.
But not all districts have that sort of setup, and I'm sure even in my district not all parents check the on-line grades during the semester.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:49 PM on January 16, 2019
But not all districts have that sort of setup, and I'm sure even in my district not all parents check the on-line grades during the semester.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:49 PM on January 16, 2019
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In conclusion, mandatory sterilizations for all.
posted by Dynex at 4:19 PM on January 13, 2019 [62 favorites]