The Billy Graham Rule Goes Global
January 28, 2019 10:22 AM Subscribe
Among the mostly male business elites, the #MeToo movement has become a point of concern for them - and many are choosing to respond by limiting their mentorship of women to lessen their exposure. But as critics point out, this is cutting women out of the networks they need to progress their careers in the future. (SLNYT)
Lesbian separatism ain’t so crazy now, huh
posted by schadenfrau at 10:29 AM on January 28, 2019 [31 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 10:29 AM on January 28, 2019 [31 favorites]
From the article:
posted by Fizz at 10:30 AM on January 28, 2019 [31 favorites]
“A number of men have told me that they will avoid going to dinner with a female mentee, or that they’re concerned about deploying a woman solo on-site with a male,” Ms. Milligan said. “People are concerned and have questions.”Then maybe don't hire or protect gross ass rapists/sexual-harassers. Ugh.
posted by Fizz at 10:30 AM on January 28, 2019 [31 favorites]
This is bullshit. The #metoo movement is literally built on how many women are sexually harrassed and sexually assaulted and don't report it. Turning that around to "men won't mentor women because they are afraid of being falsely accused" is facile nonsense.
posted by gauche at 10:30 AM on January 28, 2019 [41 favorites]
posted by gauche at 10:30 AM on January 28, 2019 [41 favorites]
As a man who is currently mentoring a woman, this is ludicrous and says more about the men limiting their mentorship pool than I think they realize. If you can't mentor someone, regardless of gender, without worrying that it'll turn into physical/emotional/sexual harassment, there is something wrong with the mentor, not the mentee.
This warped point of view that some men have is a huge underpinning of why harassment and abuse has flourished since forever, and it's also why #MeToo was so necessary.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 10:30 AM on January 28, 2019 [33 favorites]
This warped point of view that some men have is a huge underpinning of why harassment and abuse has flourished since forever, and it's also why #MeToo was so necessary.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 10:30 AM on January 28, 2019 [33 favorites]
How to avoid being accused of sexual harrassment: The Rock Test.
posted by gauche at 10:32 AM on January 28, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by gauche at 10:32 AM on January 28, 2019 [21 favorites]
Or, you know, men could resign in favor of women. Those who can’t do their jobs could start the process.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:36 AM on January 28, 2019 [38 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:36 AM on January 28, 2019 [38 favorites]
What is wrong with straight men?
posted by Nelson at 10:39 AM on January 28, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:39 AM on January 28, 2019 [15 favorites]
"Lessen their exposure" = code for "can't get away with as much so why bother".
posted by wellred at 10:41 AM on January 28, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by wellred at 10:41 AM on January 28, 2019 [23 favorites]
Men who are looking for new reasons not to have icky girls at their workplace/clubhouse can unerringly find them.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:48 AM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:48 AM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
This sort of thing is precisely why I, a bisexual man, don't allow myself to mentor anybody at all.
I thought about just being a decent, respectful human being to everyone I work with, but who has time for that?
posted by col_pogo at 10:49 AM on January 28, 2019 [41 favorites]
I thought about just being a decent, respectful human being to everyone I work with, but who has time for that?
posted by col_pogo at 10:49 AM on January 28, 2019 [41 favorites]
At the same time, as a woman whose main mentor is male and as a woman who goes to an awful lot of diversity meetings at work these days...
I'm just so tired of senior men acting terrified of the least measure of oversight or consequences for their bad behavior. You make the big bucks, buddy. Aren't you supposed to be taking on the commensurate risk as a leader?
I mean, assuming there's actually a risk to be faced here. But oh, the whining about the false accusations and the fear that innocent communication might get misconstrued and now everything is HARDER because we have to be PROFESSIONAL and it's BORING~!
I just. I'm so out of patience. I was going to make a comment about male fear and tactics for soothing it enough to guilt men into doing something about it instead of whining about how scary it is to be confronted with the possibility of a woman accusing you of harassment/another man yelling at you for making them uncomfortable/someone expecting you to do a socially uncomfortable thing, but frankly, I'm apparently at a point of compassion fatigue today.
Someone else go hold these dudes' hands into learning how to behave like fucking professionals. I'm tired.
posted by sciatrix at 10:51 AM on January 28, 2019 [53 favorites]
I'm just so tired of senior men acting terrified of the least measure of oversight or consequences for their bad behavior. You make the big bucks, buddy. Aren't you supposed to be taking on the commensurate risk as a leader?
I mean, assuming there's actually a risk to be faced here. But oh, the whining about the false accusations and the fear that innocent communication might get misconstrued and now everything is HARDER because we have to be PROFESSIONAL and it's BORING~!
I just. I'm so out of patience. I was going to make a comment about male fear and tactics for soothing it enough to guilt men into doing something about it instead of whining about how scary it is to be confronted with the possibility of a woman accusing you of harassment/another man yelling at you for making them uncomfortable/someone expecting you to do a socially uncomfortable thing, but frankly, I'm apparently at a point of compassion fatigue today.
Someone else go hold these dudes' hands into learning how to behave like fucking professionals. I'm tired.
posted by sciatrix at 10:51 AM on January 28, 2019 [53 favorites]
Apparently not done. This enrages me so much because my own career has been held back by numerous pigs in power. I will not sit idly by and either take the harassment myself or let others who don't have the option or strength to report take it. I would rather be less successful and take down the evil dudes, but it still sucks. And it's pervasive - I've dealt with this in different countries, industries, roles.
If there was a job where you rout out harassers in different companies by going to work there for a bit, see who's gross to you, and get 'em fired, I'd probably be pretty good at it. Magnet for crap.
posted by wellred at 10:51 AM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
If there was a job where you rout out harassers in different companies by going to work there for a bit, see who's gross to you, and get 'em fired, I'd probably be pretty good at it. Magnet for crap.
posted by wellred at 10:51 AM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
I've mentored over a dozen people both men and women over my career and somehow managed to not sexually harass anyone. I mean, you just don't harass them. It's not really that difficult.
posted by octothorpe at 10:53 AM on January 28, 2019 [22 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:53 AM on January 28, 2019 [22 favorites]
Hot take:
If you can't mentor women, then you're unqualified for your job, and should be fired. Non-discriminatory behavior is a basic requirement. If you think that that the problem is that men can't mentor women, then you concede that men as a whole are unqualified for your job.
Men, resign your leadership positions immediately.
(I joke, I joke, but I do have a point here, which is that this only sounds radical because men discriminating against women is so normalized.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:54 AM on January 28, 2019 [85 favorites]
If you can't mentor women, then you're unqualified for your job, and should be fired. Non-discriminatory behavior is a basic requirement. If you think that that the problem is that men can't mentor women, then you concede that men as a whole are unqualified for your job.
Men, resign your leadership positions immediately.
(I joke, I joke, but I do have a point here, which is that this only sounds radical because men discriminating against women is so normalized.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:54 AM on January 28, 2019 [85 favorites]
"men won't mentor women because they are afraid of being falsely accused" is facile nonsense
I've been hearing a lot of "false accusation" noise as well in my field, which is very male dominated. It's so infuriating, because it seems that so many men have either decided a) the behavior being called out is behavior that they are okay with and/or participate in themselves is actually "okay" and thus MUST be a "false accusation"; or b) they have internalized the numbers from MeToo not as a snapshot of the horrifying scale on which it occurs but instead "must" include a huge number of "false accusations" and thus can't be true, either. Or both.
So once again, women get punished and suffer the consequences.
posted by barchan at 11:02 AM on January 28, 2019 [27 favorites]
I've been hearing a lot of "false accusation" noise as well in my field, which is very male dominated. It's so infuriating, because it seems that so many men have either decided a) the behavior being called out is behavior that they are okay with and/or participate in themselves is actually "okay" and thus MUST be a "false accusation"; or b) they have internalized the numbers from MeToo not as a snapshot of the horrifying scale on which it occurs but instead "must" include a huge number of "false accusations" and thus can't be true, either. Or both.
So once again, women get punished and suffer the consequences.
posted by barchan at 11:02 AM on January 28, 2019 [27 favorites]
I was fired by someone who used to stand outside the bathroom door and have conversations with me while I was ummm, using the bathroom. I don't know why I didn't make a bigger deal of it...oh wait, it's because I didn't want to come across as "one of those women" because I feared it would limit my options and or mark me as a trouble maker. Pickle I say. PICKLE.
posted by lextex at 11:03 AM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by lextex at 11:03 AM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
Like, I am so fucking tired of trying to find ways to gently but realistically hand-hold men into taking a fucking stand or acting like fucking adults with their dicks in their pants instead of sitting turgidly in their hands while they're in the workplace.
I am so fucking tired of coming into threads like this and taking a breath and saying "okay, how can I nudge men into realistically behaving better instead of making cathartic expressions of thwarted fury?"
I am so tired of seeing things like this and thinking "how can I, like, make it easier for men to take the tiniest step towards fixing this in a realistic way that might actually happen in my life? how can I nudge people into moving instead of just sitting here going "..." when women are furious? how can I prevent exactly the kind of cowardly, slimy, spineless slithering away from responsibility on the part of men who aren't, apparently, actively harassing women that prevents women from actually making inroads towards meaningful change in the workplace?"
I'm so tired.
Burn it down. I'm sick of hand-holding. I'm so sick of trying to encourage baby steps and low expectations.
Burn it down.
posted by sciatrix at 11:05 AM on January 28, 2019 [44 favorites]
I am so fucking tired of coming into threads like this and taking a breath and saying "okay, how can I nudge men into realistically behaving better instead of making cathartic expressions of thwarted fury?"
I am so tired of seeing things like this and thinking "how can I, like, make it easier for men to take the tiniest step towards fixing this in a realistic way that might actually happen in my life? how can I nudge people into moving instead of just sitting here going "..." when women are furious? how can I prevent exactly the kind of cowardly, slimy, spineless slithering away from responsibility on the part of men who aren't, apparently, actively harassing women that prevents women from actually making inroads towards meaningful change in the workplace?"
I'm so tired.
Burn it down. I'm sick of hand-holding. I'm so sick of trying to encourage baby steps and low expectations.
Burn it down.
posted by sciatrix at 11:05 AM on January 28, 2019 [44 favorites]
I can see their point, actually. I mentor people involved in the criminal justice system. There’s no way I’d put myself in a position to be accused of improper behavior.
For the same reason, I don’t attend kids sports events alone, don’t go to public parks where kids are present, and certainly don’t mentor on a one and one basis unless it’s in a public place.
I’m a single man in my mid 50’s. I have zero interest in the people I coach, or kids at sporting events or whatever, but even the perception that there might be any impropriety is an unacceptable risk.
posted by disclaimer at 11:06 AM on January 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
For the same reason, I don’t attend kids sports events alone, don’t go to public parks where kids are present, and certainly don’t mentor on a one and one basis unless it’s in a public place.
I’m a single man in my mid 50’s. I have zero interest in the people I coach, or kids at sporting events or whatever, but even the perception that there might be any impropriety is an unacceptable risk.
posted by disclaimer at 11:06 AM on January 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
Seriously, this is not where we help men not dig themselves deeper holes. This is where we try to repair the damage to women, and then once that's done, boost women UP.
posted by wellred at 11:07 AM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by wellred at 11:07 AM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
Glass-walled conference rooms. Slack, Skype, telephones, email, coffee shops, park effing benches.
posted by wellred at 11:09 AM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by wellred at 11:09 AM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
Why are you afraid of a false accusation, disclaimer? I do not understand this mindset of avoiding situations when you know you will behave yourself and I want to.
posted by agregoli at 11:09 AM on January 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 11:09 AM on January 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
Man, they seem so close to getting it. If they really are legitimately concerned about the manner in which they mentor men potentially not being appropriate for how they mentor women, then they're thiiiis close to realizing the way they mentor men is a major part of the problem.
Boy's club crap as bonding technique is toxic period. Don't act like being a couple "men" makes it okay to be sexist, cross physical boundaries, or otherwise do that frat house, cop shop, sports team brotherhood shit. Kill that off in your mentorship with men and mentoring women won't have to be any different at all.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:11 AM on January 28, 2019 [53 favorites]
Boy's club crap as bonding technique is toxic period. Don't act like being a couple "men" makes it okay to be sexist, cross physical boundaries, or otherwise do that frat house, cop shop, sports team brotherhood shit. Kill that off in your mentorship with men and mentoring women won't have to be any different at all.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:11 AM on January 28, 2019 [53 favorites]
A cool development would be if powerful men were anywhere near as concerned about true accusations that they discriminate against women in mentoring as they apparently are about false accusations of sexual harassment.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:16 AM on January 28, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:16 AM on January 28, 2019 [27 favorites]
As an aside, I've really been appreciating how fantastic, diverse, and mature my current team is. I don't know that any two of us tick all the same boxes and yet we all get along great and believe in inclusivity, empowerment, and respect. Despite having worked in the trades in my younger years, which was the polar opposite, I still sometimes take it for granted.
I'm actually pretty curious what it's like in other office environments. In the trades the sexism, racism, homophobia, etc were pretty much right out in the open and not subtle at all. What forms do those sorts of things take in other cube farms out there? I'd love to know if there is any alignment to industry as well, for example tech vs finance vs marketing vs whatever else.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 11:17 AM on January 28, 2019
I'm actually pretty curious what it's like in other office environments. In the trades the sexism, racism, homophobia, etc were pretty much right out in the open and not subtle at all. What forms do those sorts of things take in other cube farms out there? I'd love to know if there is any alignment to industry as well, for example tech vs finance vs marketing vs whatever else.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 11:17 AM on January 28, 2019
I have worked for countless people that I'm pretty sure are cracking jokes about how they can't do such and such thing or say such and such thing because of the metoo movement. I've worked for good people as well, but they are certainly the minority.
Every single one in that former crowd that I've worked for would have good reason to be worried... they were abusive, manipulative bullshitters who bullshitted, manipulated, and abused their way into the positions of power they wielded. If absolutely nothing else, they'd be worried about someone who could see how transparent the bullshit really is.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:23 AM on January 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
Every single one in that former crowd that I've worked for would have good reason to be worried... they were abusive, manipulative bullshitters who bullshitted, manipulated, and abused their way into the positions of power they wielded. If absolutely nothing else, they'd be worried about someone who could see how transparent the bullshit really is.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:23 AM on January 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
In biology, it looks people running to pay lip service to the idea of gender equality, but mysteriously not promoting women, and just-as-mysteriously seeing a pack of within-field romantic relationships in which a woman's career always seems to get derailed in service to her romantic partner. It looks like established faculty members taking risks to mentor and invite in young men with a history of harassment of women because they see themselves in those young men, and protecting other harassers quietly with convenient lapses of memory and unwillingness to support women because they see themselves in those harassers, too.
The senior people I am thinking of would say we all get along great and believe in inclusivity, empowerment, and respect, too--but mysteriously they retain friends who do not treat junior women with respect and become upset and defensive if those junior women in any way indicate that they are unhappy, or indicate that their respect for said senior men might be diminished as a result.
I'm so angry. I'm so tired.
posted by sciatrix at 11:26 AM on January 28, 2019 [22 favorites]
The senior people I am thinking of would say we all get along great and believe in inclusivity, empowerment, and respect, too--but mysteriously they retain friends who do not treat junior women with respect and become upset and defensive if those junior women in any way indicate that they are unhappy, or indicate that their respect for said senior men might be diminished as a result.
I'm so angry. I'm so tired.
posted by sciatrix at 11:26 AM on January 28, 2019 [22 favorites]
Denial. Pig networking and echo chambers. Performing arts is terrible because there is always touching, and the touching easily turns sinister. Higher education is paternalistic pretty much by definition and advantage is taken. In my major tech experience the culture was so cis-white-guy oriented that everyone else suffered, but one VERY rotten apple spoiled the bunch more for awhile.
Evil seeks its own level and others drown.
posted by wellred at 11:37 AM on January 28, 2019
Evil seeks its own level and others drown.
posted by wellred at 11:37 AM on January 28, 2019
What a fun way for a powerful man to concede that he’s incapable of controlling his own behavior and probably shouldn’t be in charge of anything, ever
How to avoid being accused of sexual harrassment: The Rock Test.
So - you know how sometimes, you seize upon a metaphor, and it seems to work, and people seem to understand, and so they run with it, but it was never actually perfect in the first place?
This is how I feel about sexual harassment in the workplace.
We have collectively - and I have singly - talked about sexual harassment in the workplace as though it is a matter of behavior, as though any dude, no matter what his views, can just be fine in the workplace as long as he treats his female coworkers like men.
And you know what, like, that was good enough for a while, because the atmosphere was so. fucking. poisonous. But it wasn't the real problem. The real problem isn't individual behavior or men not treating women like dudes.
The real problem is the constant dehumanization of women, that dudes can't hide just by avoiding a rulebook of specific behaviors.
Like: why am I somehow not bothered on the occasions when my queer comrades or women talk about their sex life in work-type settings? It's not about the behavior of talking about sex life at work. Not talking about sex life at work is just the stop-gap measure because het dudes literally can't stop themselves from dehumanizing the person they're fucking, and it's really gross and toxic to hear. Because they can't stop themselves from saying things they know are taboo, because being taboo and shitty is the point.
I believe that these guys can't avoid being accused of sexual harassment when alone with women, because they basically are sexual harassment in a jar. They don't respect women as humans, and it shows.
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on January 28, 2019 [49 favorites]
How to avoid being accused of sexual harrassment: The Rock Test.
So - you know how sometimes, you seize upon a metaphor, and it seems to work, and people seem to understand, and so they run with it, but it was never actually perfect in the first place?
This is how I feel about sexual harassment in the workplace.
We have collectively - and I have singly - talked about sexual harassment in the workplace as though it is a matter of behavior, as though any dude, no matter what his views, can just be fine in the workplace as long as he treats his female coworkers like men.
And you know what, like, that was good enough for a while, because the atmosphere was so. fucking. poisonous. But it wasn't the real problem. The real problem isn't individual behavior or men not treating women like dudes.
The real problem is the constant dehumanization of women, that dudes can't hide just by avoiding a rulebook of specific behaviors.
Like: why am I somehow not bothered on the occasions when my queer comrades or women talk about their sex life in work-type settings? It's not about the behavior of talking about sex life at work. Not talking about sex life at work is just the stop-gap measure because het dudes literally can't stop themselves from dehumanizing the person they're fucking, and it's really gross and toxic to hear. Because they can't stop themselves from saying things they know are taboo, because being taboo and shitty is the point.
I believe that these guys can't avoid being accused of sexual harassment when alone with women, because they basically are sexual harassment in a jar. They don't respect women as humans, and it shows.
posted by corb at 11:40 AM on January 28, 2019 [49 favorites]
I knew two male professors in grad school who "just don't work well with women." This meant failure to mentor their own female grad students well (if at all) and failure to even meet or communicate with other female grad students who they were supposed to be mentoring through their thesis committees. Both of these men now work at other universities where they have clearly "moved up". Hell, I heard one on NPR the other day. "Just doesn't work well with women" should mean "is unable to fulfill the basic functions of his job and thus has been let go" not "gets hired by an even fancier university with an even fancier named professorship."
posted by hydropsyche at 11:48 AM on January 28, 2019 [44 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 11:48 AM on January 28, 2019 [44 favorites]
I think one of the things that straight men need to learn from LGBTQ peers is that "catching feels" on someone who's completely wrong isn't a fucking existential life crisis that's the basis for romcom. It's just one of those things you live with, often without voicing it. Treat it as an opportunity for practicing responsible boundaries.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:49 AM on January 28, 2019 [62 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 11:49 AM on January 28, 2019 [62 favorites]
Shitty men decide to impose collective punishment on women for not putting up with being groped/expected to put out.
posted by acb at 11:50 AM on January 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by acb at 11:50 AM on January 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
Why are you afraid of a false accusation, disclaimer? I do not understand this mindset of avoiding situations when you know you will behave yourself and I want to.
Not saying it necessarily applies to anyone in this thread, but this is definitely A Dynamic I've seen among men who are very upset with the idea of gender equality, but who find that position too politically fraught to express publicly. The most common way I've seen it framed is among misogynist middle- and high-school teachers (which: GOD why do I know so many of these) who refuse to be in any one-on-one situation with a female student, because apparently it is a Thing That Is Known that if you give one of those conniving female types the slightest foothold, they'll use it to levy false accusations of harassment against you and ruin your career out of sheer malicious glee. I'm not all surprised to see the same logic applied to mentoring relationships, because it's exactly the same idea at work: such accusations are inevitable, because they are the work of the Misandrist Trickster Goddess, which every woman secretly longs to be. The alternative (the fact that many of their colleagues and friends are actually misogynist abusers or enablers) is unthinkable, so they've constructed an entirely separate plane of reality where men are the victims of a vast and powerful gynocracy whose goal is the extermination of all male power.
posted by Mayor West at 11:55 AM on January 28, 2019 [44 favorites]
Not saying it necessarily applies to anyone in this thread, but this is definitely A Dynamic I've seen among men who are very upset with the idea of gender equality, but who find that position too politically fraught to express publicly. The most common way I've seen it framed is among misogynist middle- and high-school teachers (which: GOD why do I know so many of these) who refuse to be in any one-on-one situation with a female student, because apparently it is a Thing That Is Known that if you give one of those conniving female types the slightest foothold, they'll use it to levy false accusations of harassment against you and ruin your career out of sheer malicious glee. I'm not all surprised to see the same logic applied to mentoring relationships, because it's exactly the same idea at work: such accusations are inevitable, because they are the work of the Misandrist Trickster Goddess, which every woman secretly longs to be. The alternative (the fact that many of their colleagues and friends are actually misogynist abusers or enablers) is unthinkable, so they've constructed an entirely separate plane of reality where men are the victims of a vast and powerful gynocracy whose goal is the extermination of all male power.
posted by Mayor West at 11:55 AM on January 28, 2019 [44 favorites]
I'm a straight man working in a female-dominated profession (public librarianship), and I have been mentored by a number of women over the years and exactly none of them have sexually harassed me or otherwise treated me as anything but a professional equal. So it really shouldn't be difficult at all, my fellow men, but there you are.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:57 AM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:57 AM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
Are men doing this shit because they fear they won't be able to control their powerful lusts around women, or because they fear that the #MeToo movement consists of manipulative lying feeeeemales who will frame poor innocent mens and cackle about it?
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:04 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:04 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm kind of shocked that nobody here has been inappropriately groped by women in their workplace. This definitely happens to me every couple of years, sometimes more. I don't really value my bodily autonomy and I do value these people who sometimes cross a boundary, so it isn't hard to laugh it off. Maybe my goofball nature and my queerness make it safe. It isn't hard to imagine a scenario where I accuse them and they successfully reverse that accusation on me, since I've been an eyewitness to seeing that play out. Sometimes I feel like I'm living on a different planet from the other commenters here.
I still mentor anyone who wants it, FWIW. It is a lot more difficult to mentor women because there are a bunch of new rules about explaining things, conversation, interaction and so on. That said, it is fun so I do it anyway.
posted by poe at 12:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
I still mentor anyone who wants it, FWIW. It is a lot more difficult to mentor women because there are a bunch of new rules about explaining things, conversation, interaction and so on. That said, it is fun so I do it anyway.
posted by poe at 12:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
What is wrong with straight men?
i have a list
posted by poffin boffin at 12:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [59 favorites]
i have a list
posted by poffin boffin at 12:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [59 favorites]
I think part of what disclaimer was getting at is that one response to child abuse lawsuits was to restructure childcare and youth activities such that adults are never alone and unsupervised.
I think there's some business practices that probably should be dropped or at least strongly questioned, such as meeting in private hotel rooms.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:15 PM on January 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
I think there's some business practices that probably should be dropped or at least strongly questioned, such as meeting in private hotel rooms.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 12:15 PM on January 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
I think part of what disclaimer was getting at is that one response to child abuse lawsuits was to restructure childcare and youth activities such that adults are never alone and unsupervised.
On rereading my original comment, I think I came across as less kind than I intended--I don't mean to accuse anyone of any antisocial behaviors, and I apologize to disclaimer if I implied otherwise.
However, the fact that we as a society looked at the epidemic of men sexually assaulting children, gritted our teeth, rolled up our sleeves, and... got rid of one-on-one interactions between men and populations at risk of assault, rather than putting our efforts into rooting out the predatory men who were doing the assaulting, is itself kind of telling.
posted by Mayor West at 12:23 PM on January 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
On rereading my original comment, I think I came across as less kind than I intended--I don't mean to accuse anyone of any antisocial behaviors, and I apologize to disclaimer if I implied otherwise.
However, the fact that we as a society looked at the epidemic of men sexually assaulting children, gritted our teeth, rolled up our sleeves, and... got rid of one-on-one interactions between men and populations at risk of assault, rather than putting our efforts into rooting out the predatory men who were doing the assaulting, is itself kind of telling.
posted by Mayor West at 12:23 PM on January 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
Sometimes I feel like I'm living on a different planet from the other commenters here.
I still mentor anyone who wants it, FWIW. It is a lot more difficult to mentor women because there are a bunch of new rules about explaining things, conversation, interaction and so on. That said, it is fun so I do it anyway.
I am scared to ask, but do tell us about your planet and all these rules. There are no "new rules" on my planet.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:40 PM on January 28, 2019 [18 favorites]
I still mentor anyone who wants it, FWIW. It is a lot more difficult to mentor women because there are a bunch of new rules about explaining things, conversation, interaction and so on. That said, it is fun so I do it anyway.
I am scared to ask, but do tell us about your planet and all these rules. There are no "new rules" on my planet.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:40 PM on January 28, 2019 [18 favorites]
That being said, it's not okay for women to be groping other people, either!
I'm really curious, for all that I'm pent up and furious and frustrated with the situation on my own homeworld, which seems to be the one that the only other person I see here I know in the same industry as me is on. Still. What planet do you live in? Give us some context. The reference to women in your workplace groping you is interesting; I want more, if only so I can rant fairly.
posted by sciatrix at 12:45 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm really curious, for all that I'm pent up and furious and frustrated with the situation on my own homeworld, which seems to be the one that the only other person I see here I know in the same industry as me is on. Still. What planet do you live in? Give us some context. The reference to women in your workplace groping you is interesting; I want more, if only so I can rant fairly.
posted by sciatrix at 12:45 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Maybe when someone reports that they've been or felt mistreated in the workplace, we should believe them.
posted by toxic at 12:59 PM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by toxic at 12:59 PM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
I... like how you assume that I'm asking for more information because I don't believe poe's description of his own experiences, rather than because I do believe him and want to know how better to press for a fair treatment of everyone in their workplace, or at least what I'm missing.
posted by sciatrix at 1:02 PM on January 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 1:02 PM on January 28, 2019 [13 favorites]
Especially in theatre days I have seen plenty of gay men (or men read as gay) be groped by women, so I absolutely believe poe, and it sucks.
Does it hold gay men's careers back or make people afraid to mentor him? That I don't know. I would like to hear more about that part.
posted by wellred at 1:07 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
Does it hold gay men's careers back or make people afraid to mentor him? That I don't know. I would like to hear more about that part.
posted by wellred at 1:07 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
I am just wondering what kind of workplacce decides "new rules" for talking to women is a good idea. What are they? New rules for explaining things? Conversation? Interaction? Baffled.
posted by agregoli at 1:11 PM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 1:11 PM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, this needs to not turn into an interrogation, and if poe is done talking here they are allowed to just be done.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [9 favorites]
For some context to my earlier comments, I work in the tech industry. Specifically software engineering and management. I think I happen to work in a rather exceptional place though, with regards to diversity in hiring, promotion, and general attitudes. I've heard horror stories about other places, particularly the bro-coders in SV.
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 1:14 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Godspeed.You!Black.Emperor.Penguin at 1:14 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ultimately this is a derail, and I apologize. I think that there is a real fear that women in the workplace can represent a threat to your career regardless of your behavior. Even if that fear is completely unfounded it is there.
Ethically the responsibility to deal with this rests with men, but practically that will only happen with some men.
Mentoring people is optional, it kind of has to be. I'm not sure how best to deal with men who are ruled by this fear.
posted by poe at 1:14 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
Ethically the responsibility to deal with this rests with men, but practically that will only happen with some men.
Mentoring people is optional, it kind of has to be. I'm not sure how best to deal with men who are ruled by this fear.
posted by poe at 1:14 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
corporate reeducation camp with cenobites?
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
I have been in communities where beating and torturing men who cross boundaries is the done thing. It isn't optimal.
posted by poe at 1:27 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by poe at 1:27 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
For the same reason, I don’t attend kids sports events alone, don’t go to public parks where kids are present, and certainly don’t mentor on a one and one basis unless it’s in a public place.
I mean, there's a distinguishing feature, here. Children are children. Children do not communicate like adults. We have, at this point, a huge established history of children "falsely accusing" adults of abuse, not out of malice, but out of a combination of entirely understandable poor communication and lack of good boundaries between fantasy and reality and adults then questioning those children in a way that leads those children to say things that aren't true.
They're children. Adult women are adults. Adult women, as a broad category, understand what it means to say that a thing happened, and understand what they're accusing men of, and are communicating these things in clear language and without being led into those accusations by others.
I don't think doing this in a way that just involves moving things into public is the act of a monster or anything, I just... I say this because this is a comparison a lot of people are making, and I really wish people would spend more time thinking about what it means to imply that these two things are the same. To imply that you're at real risk of an adult woman making up a story that harms your reputation or career is to imply that women are developmentally equivalent to small children.
posted by Sequence at 1:30 PM on January 28, 2019 [33 favorites]
I mean, there's a distinguishing feature, here. Children are children. Children do not communicate like adults. We have, at this point, a huge established history of children "falsely accusing" adults of abuse, not out of malice, but out of a combination of entirely understandable poor communication and lack of good boundaries between fantasy and reality and adults then questioning those children in a way that leads those children to say things that aren't true.
They're children. Adult women are adults. Adult women, as a broad category, understand what it means to say that a thing happened, and understand what they're accusing men of, and are communicating these things in clear language and without being led into those accusations by others.
I don't think doing this in a way that just involves moving things into public is the act of a monster or anything, I just... I say this because this is a comparison a lot of people are making, and I really wish people would spend more time thinking about what it means to imply that these two things are the same. To imply that you're at real risk of an adult woman making up a story that harms your reputation or career is to imply that women are developmentally equivalent to small children.
posted by Sequence at 1:30 PM on January 28, 2019 [33 favorites]
A couple of people up thread really nailed it. The problem is people keep looking for some kind of prescriptivist code or keep trying to engineer a solution to problem behavior when the underlying problem is toxic masculinity and misogyny. You can’t fix this without fixing that.
And, yeah, that should be disqualifying as fuck. You should not qualify for head dog catcher in Pawnee if you’re so developmentally challenged that you can’t see women as people.
the Misandrist Trickster Goddess, which every woman secretly longs to be
Ok but now I do feel seen
posted by schadenfrau at 1:30 PM on January 28, 2019 [38 favorites]
And, yeah, that should be disqualifying as fuck. You should not qualify for head dog catcher in Pawnee if you’re so developmentally challenged that you can’t see women as people.
the Misandrist Trickster Goddess, which every woman secretly longs to be
Ok but now I do feel seen
posted by schadenfrau at 1:30 PM on January 28, 2019 [38 favorites]
Maybe jobs could be structured so that people can succeed at then by working only during work hours, and this whole "mentor dinner" thing can be moot?
My cynical view is that as a single woman I follow the Billy Graham rule because I don't want to find out who the creeps are.
posted by momus_window at 1:32 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
My cynical view is that as a single woman I follow the Billy Graham rule because I don't want to find out who the creeps are.
posted by momus_window at 1:32 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think that there is a real fear that women in the workplace can represent a threat to your career regardless of your behavior.
This is a new excuse for the same old story, isn't it...men deciding women shouldn't be in the workplace. They are a threat (of some kind).
posted by agregoli at 1:47 PM on January 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
This is a new excuse for the same old story, isn't it...men deciding women shouldn't be in the workplace. They are a threat (of some kind).
posted by agregoli at 1:47 PM on January 28, 2019 [10 favorites]
Not speaking for disclaimer, but I have declined to do volunteer work with children (of either gender) on a few occasions because I'm gay. You don't hear it so much anymore, but people in some times and places have declined to make a distinction between gay and pedophile (e.g. my dad, early 1980s), and I don't automatically trust other people to know there's a difference just because it's 2019. I trust myself, I trust the kids, I just don't trust the other adults in the kids' lives to know what "gay" means.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 1:51 PM on January 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by Spathe Cadet at 1:51 PM on January 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
The trouble here though is certain men thinking "woman" means "looking for a chance to falsely accuse a man of wrongdoing." So they just decide to avoid them, not help them, mentor them, hire them, etc.
posted by agregoli at 1:57 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 1:57 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
The mentoring programs I'm involved with are about helping newly sentenced sobriety and treatment court defendants navigate the services and meetings they're sentenced to attend as part of their court participation. It's a group effort, there are several mentors available in these courts.
There's a young person in a sobriety court who sets off every bell in my admittedly defective gaydar. I've given them advice about what meetings to go to, how to navigate queer recovery resources. That advice was given in the courthouse, at a table with other mentors. One of the mentors came to me afterward and challenged me about why I was interested in helping this person, in a very offensive way.
Later, this young person came and asked if I would take them to a meeting that night, and I agreed. Only to be once again "counseled" that I should meet them there, rather than be alone in a car with them. And I was told in the most pretentious way that it wasn't about me, but "how it would look".
And that sets the tone. There's no way in hell I'd give ANY homophobe in that court any ammunition to assume that anything improper exists between this defendant and myself. The last thing they need is to feel unsafe, whether from a mentor/mentee relationship or from outside influences.
I'm an out, older gay male. "Fraternizing" with a young, possibly gay, possibly male, individual from my position - which from their perspective is one of authority - needs to not just accommodate their needs, but also accommodate the ignorant views of my fellow mentors, some of whom aren't by any stretch "enlightened".
So, it's not fear. It's avoiding situations that, whether I like it or not, could severely affect others. This young person's participation and engagement with the mentoring program is far more important than my engaging with them. I'm sure we could have some great conversations and I'm sure my advice would be welcome, just as much as I would get a lot out of hearing their story and relating it to my own history . But navigating that is far too problematic at this point.
A few years ago I attended (alone) a diving competition where my niece (a high schooler at the time) was competing, because she invited me to. I got so much stinkeye from the folks in the crowd - even slyly questioned about why I was there by a father and then a mother in the crowd - that my bright idea to take a picture of her dive with my phone went right out the window when the staring got even more intense when I attempted to compose a shot. I ended up leaving and waiting for her in the parking lot.
So I don't go to those things anymore. I certainly don't need a bunch of helicopter parents creating gossip and issues for my niece or her family. It's not worth it.
So I'm not "afraid". I suppose that what I am, more than anything, is hyper-aware of other people's perceptions about these things. What I feel most about these situations is disappointment and anger in my fellow mentors.
I'm working slowly on them - trying to change their views a little at a time. But it's going to take a while, and until some magical change happens in society, I'm not holding my breath that it will change anytime soon.
posted by disclaimer at 1:59 PM on January 28, 2019 [30 favorites]
There's a young person in a sobriety court who sets off every bell in my admittedly defective gaydar. I've given them advice about what meetings to go to, how to navigate queer recovery resources. That advice was given in the courthouse, at a table with other mentors. One of the mentors came to me afterward and challenged me about why I was interested in helping this person, in a very offensive way.
Later, this young person came and asked if I would take them to a meeting that night, and I agreed. Only to be once again "counseled" that I should meet them there, rather than be alone in a car with them. And I was told in the most pretentious way that it wasn't about me, but "how it would look".
And that sets the tone. There's no way in hell I'd give ANY homophobe in that court any ammunition to assume that anything improper exists between this defendant and myself. The last thing they need is to feel unsafe, whether from a mentor/mentee relationship or from outside influences.
I'm an out, older gay male. "Fraternizing" with a young, possibly gay, possibly male, individual from my position - which from their perspective is one of authority - needs to not just accommodate their needs, but also accommodate the ignorant views of my fellow mentors, some of whom aren't by any stretch "enlightened".
So, it's not fear. It's avoiding situations that, whether I like it or not, could severely affect others. This young person's participation and engagement with the mentoring program is far more important than my engaging with them. I'm sure we could have some great conversations and I'm sure my advice would be welcome, just as much as I would get a lot out of hearing their story and relating it to my own history . But navigating that is far too problematic at this point.
A few years ago I attended (alone) a diving competition where my niece (a high schooler at the time) was competing, because she invited me to. I got so much stinkeye from the folks in the crowd - even slyly questioned about why I was there by a father and then a mother in the crowd - that my bright idea to take a picture of her dive with my phone went right out the window when the staring got even more intense when I attempted to compose a shot. I ended up leaving and waiting for her in the parking lot.
So I don't go to those things anymore. I certainly don't need a bunch of helicopter parents creating gossip and issues for my niece or her family. It's not worth it.
So I'm not "afraid". I suppose that what I am, more than anything, is hyper-aware of other people's perceptions about these things. What I feel most about these situations is disappointment and anger in my fellow mentors.
I'm working slowly on them - trying to change their views a little at a time. But it's going to take a while, and until some magical change happens in society, I'm not holding my breath that it will change anytime soon.
posted by disclaimer at 1:59 PM on January 28, 2019 [30 favorites]
I think you should have stayed at your niece's event. I think it IS worth it, if you do want to change these perceptions. Being seen as a creeper towards kids when you're not isn't fun and potentially fraught with peril and not the topic of this post, but what would be wrong with simply stating you're there for niece and keep cheering her on? No one paranoid can get used to males being normal unless they stick around and be normal. Not trying to criticize at all just hopefully offering some food for thought.
posted by agregoli at 2:08 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 2:08 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Why would men who claim an inability to avoid potential claims of sexual harassment from women assume they can avoid it with other men?
Oh right. They can avoid it when they want to. They just don't want to with women.
posted by srboisvert at 2:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
Oh right. They can avoid it when they want to. They just don't want to with women.
posted by srboisvert at 2:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
I do not understand this mindset of avoiding situations when you know you will behave yourself and I want to.
I think the other thing going into this is more about power than about fear. Maybe it's not so much they're afraid a woman would falsely accuse them but find it intolerable that she could, that an underling (and particularly a woman) could potentially have any power of any sort in a relationship.
So part of it is, "What sort of person are you that you think someone would be tempted to make a false accusation against you?"
posted by straight at 2:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think the other thing going into this is more about power than about fear. Maybe it's not so much they're afraid a woman would falsely accuse them but find it intolerable that she could, that an underling (and particularly a woman) could potentially have any power of any sort in a relationship.
So part of it is, "What sort of person are you that you think someone would be tempted to make a false accusation against you?"
posted by straight at 2:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [8 favorites]
Looking back at it and at today's attitudes, yeah, that's what I'd do today. It was ten years ago though, I was pretty new at being the supportive uncle, and these folks were, from my perspective at the time, pretty hostile. I don't think I'd let them get to me nearly as much these days.
posted by disclaimer at 2:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by disclaimer at 2:13 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
I mean you could just as well say, "I refuse to mentor men or be alone with men because you never know whether a guy might have a gun in his briefcase, pull it out, and shoot me. Don't tell me that never happens."
posted by straight at 2:24 PM on January 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by straight at 2:24 PM on January 28, 2019 [16 favorites]
It feels to me as though there may be a difference between situations where the other person is in one's care, like in the case of children or someone at risk of substance abuse, and a workplace mentoring relationship. Like if you can't figure out how to teach someone to file exemplary TPS reports in a way that doesn't lead to some exceptional risk beyond that of normal workplace interactions, it's more difficult for me to buy it as a real issue.
posted by XMLicious at 2:33 PM on January 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 2:33 PM on January 28, 2019 [7 favorites]
"Why would men who claim an inability to avoid potential claims of sexual harassment from women assume they can avoid it with other men? "
1) I'm pretty sure that avoiding openly gay men is part of the program here.
2) Because sexually harassing another man can get you beaten or worse, so it really is less likely.
I'm sure your theory applies as well.
posted by poe at 2:42 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
1) I'm pretty sure that avoiding openly gay men is part of the program here.
2) Because sexually harassing another man can get you beaten or worse, so it really is less likely.
I'm sure your theory applies as well.
posted by poe at 2:42 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm not personally worried about being accused if harassment or misconduct, but I think it is worthwhile to talk about how to change workplace norms so that personal and professional boundaries are clearly respected.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:44 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:44 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
It would be great if an article about misogyny could not get notallmenned to death by queer men.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 2:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [15 favorites]
Friendly reminder to people who enjoy videogame streamers (or who are parents of such people): Fortnite mega-star and biggest streamer in the world Ninja subscribes to this rule. He is a complete shitbag pretending to be a friendly face. Do not give him views, do not let your kids be influenced by him.
(previously)
posted by tocts at 3:19 PM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
(previously)
posted by tocts at 3:19 PM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
I am hoping this article will be an additional catalyst for lots of necessary conversations about next steps in improving our workplaces and larger society. I understand - and share - much of the righteous derision toward many of the attitudes and behaviors the article discusses. But the article also includes a distinction among men who are "clueless, creepy or criminal." Is it possible to acknowledge and then discuss these different categories of men in a venue like MetaFilter?
posted by PhineasGage at 3:56 PM on January 28, 2019
posted by PhineasGage at 3:56 PM on January 28, 2019
...and I was just trying to give perspective from a mentors point of view. I wasn't intending to dominate, sorry.
posted by disclaimer at 3:59 PM on January 28, 2019
posted by disclaimer at 3:59 PM on January 28, 2019
Shelley Zalis of the Female Quotient, a company dedicated to achieving workplace equality, spoke of a climate of “microsensitivity.”Fuuuuuuuuuuck that noise.
“I tell women, before you take offense, make men aware that you are uncomfortable, as it may not be intentional,” she said. “Women and men must work together to write a new script for what’s O.K. in the workplace so we all feel safe.”
Things male co-workers have said to/about me at work:
- speculated about me being pregnant after I was out sick with the flu (because vomiting = pregnancy, lol!)
- told me I'm getting older and if I want to have babies I'll need to get a move on before my uterus shrivels up (yes, he actually used the word shrivel)
- told me the importance of not putting out too easily if I want a serious relationship with a man
- asked me out on dates, sometimes repeatedly, despite me having a very public policy of not dating co-workers.
- joked repeatedly that I was having sex with a married male co-worker (I was not).
- told me that if I hadn't received favourable treatment from a man who supposedly gave better evaluations to women than to men then it was because my breasts were too small
- stared at my breasts
posted by Secret Sparrow at 4:14 PM on January 28, 2019 [22 favorites]
Women and men must work together to make sure men are not being jerks. Riiiiiiight.
posted by agregoli at 4:20 PM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 4:20 PM on January 28, 2019 [14 favorites]
> But the article also includes a distinction among men who are "clueless, creepy or criminal." Is it possible to acknowledge and then discuss these different categories of men in a venue like MetaFilter?
I do think that's a fair point. But I'm tired of privileged successful men loudly professing that they're clueless while not actually seeking out clues.
Plenty of young people enter the white collar world clueless every year, and they exercise caution until they get a clue. If you're not sure how to act in a work situation, play it safe. Act like you're at a job interview or your significant other's grandmother's house.
One of the people quoted in the article uses the word "sponsor," not mentor, which also seems like a critical distinction. You can speak up for your good workers without taking them out to a candlelit dinner for two. You can let people know about opportunities and tips for success on a quick walk to Starbucks. Don't subject people to an awkward evening out with you so you can feel noble doling out wine, wisdom and favors.
posted by smelendez at 5:01 PM on January 28, 2019 [20 favorites]
I do think that's a fair point. But I'm tired of privileged successful men loudly professing that they're clueless while not actually seeking out clues.
Plenty of young people enter the white collar world clueless every year, and they exercise caution until they get a clue. If you're not sure how to act in a work situation, play it safe. Act like you're at a job interview or your significant other's grandmother's house.
One of the people quoted in the article uses the word "sponsor," not mentor, which also seems like a critical distinction. You can speak up for your good workers without taking them out to a candlelit dinner for two. You can let people know about opportunities and tips for success on a quick walk to Starbucks. Don't subject people to an awkward evening out with you so you can feel noble doling out wine, wisdom and favors.
posted by smelendez at 5:01 PM on January 28, 2019 [20 favorites]
I can accept that some otherwise well-meaning men could feel uncomfortable being in informal one-on-one situations with a junior female colleague. However, the obvious good-faith solution isn't to cease mentoring women but instead to change your mentoring strategy to an approach you'd feel comfortable applying to people regardless of gender.
A while back I read an article about an executive who realized his practice of taking mentees out to one-on-one dinners was making his female mentees the subject of unkind gossip. His solution was to stop doing one-on-one dinners for any mentees -- male or female. He reasoned that since women weren't really benefiting, it would be unfair to give that advantage to men. He found different means of mentorship - doing lunches with groups of two, for example.
I think examples like this demonstrate that all this "I can never mentor women at all oh well back to the old boys club" trick is so disingenuous.
posted by Emily's Fist at 5:11 PM on January 28, 2019 [70 favorites]
A while back I read an article about an executive who realized his practice of taking mentees out to one-on-one dinners was making his female mentees the subject of unkind gossip. His solution was to stop doing one-on-one dinners for any mentees -- male or female. He reasoned that since women weren't really benefiting, it would be unfair to give that advantage to men. He found different means of mentorship - doing lunches with groups of two, for example.
I think examples like this demonstrate that all this "I can never mentor women at all oh well back to the old boys club" trick is so disingenuous.
posted by Emily's Fist at 5:11 PM on January 28, 2019 [70 favorites]
Sadly, the Creeps have ruined cluelessness as an excuse for the genuinely Clueless. I suggest that rather than having each others' backs, as has been their practice up to this point, these two groups ought to viciously turn on each other, and we will sort out whichever is left standing when the dust settles.
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 5:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
When I read disclaimer's first comment I was reminded of questions and comments from a couple of years ago re the behavior of men "of a certain age", posted by relatively young women who were quick with the "creepy" and related labels ("old man" went without saying) in situations where the behavior in question seemed acceptable to me (an age peer).
Fortunately, you seldom see such outright ageism around here these days—can't say the same for life in the wild.
In other words, I understand disclaimer's caution.
posted by she's not there at 5:25 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
Fortunately, you seldom see such outright ageism around here these days—can't say the same for life in the wild.
In other words, I understand disclaimer's caution.
posted by she's not there at 5:25 PM on January 28, 2019 [5 favorites]
I loved how the article ended:
Stephanie Ruhle, a banker-turned-television anchor, pointed out in a Davos panel titled the Future of Masculinity that men on Wall Street had never really gone out of their way to promote women before #MeToo, either.
“Could this be an excuse?” she said.
It's not hard to not be a creep, but taking away people's (men's) ability to be a creep obviously makes them unhappy.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
Stephanie Ruhle, a banker-turned-television anchor, pointed out in a Davos panel titled the Future of Masculinity that men on Wall Street had never really gone out of their way to promote women before #MeToo, either.
“Could this be an excuse?” she said.
It's not hard to not be a creep, but taking away people's (men's) ability to be a creep obviously makes them unhappy.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [6 favorites]
EVEN IF you're not a creep, what does it cost you to stop mentoring women? Practically nothing, right? I'm not saying it's a good decision but I totally understand the thought process that leads up to it, patriarchal and kind of fucked up as it may be (is). Add to that the increased scrutiny of a post-MeToo era (note, I am emphatically not attempting to blame MeToo for this) and suddenly you get a bunch of executives talking more about just opting out altogether. I think this is a predictable response, because there isn't a whole lot disincentivizing this kind of bad behavior. The solution seems to be, to my mind, to create disincentives. I don't know how, other than publicly excoriating this kind of bullshit.
posted by axiom at 8:02 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by axiom at 8:02 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
Fire them and hire women
posted by schadenfrau at 8:03 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 8:03 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
agregoli: "Why are you afraid of a false accusation, disclaimer? I do not understand this mindset of avoiding situations when you know you will behave yourself and I want to."
These kinds of precautions abound in all sorts of situations. For example I work in hospitality and when we are in guest rooms we leave the door open. It is debatable whether that policy in place to prevent staff from stealing from guests or is in place to reduce false accusations.
Or take camps. Over the years camps have evolved from One Big Bunk Room where everyone shared a bathroom to separate facilities by gender to individual facilities (usually still separated by gender). No camps I've been in or heard of in the last 10 years have anyone sharing privacy facilities with someone of the opposite gender. The gang shower is a prime indicator of a very old camp. Sharing facilities with anyone is getting rarer. Even Jack and Jills (where two individual camp rooms share a toilet and shower but eiither resident has exclusive access when they are in there) are getting deprecated in favour of private, one per room, bathrooms. Most of that is recruitment based but some is harassment reduction based (which is also a recruitment tool).
agregoli: "I am just wondering what kind of workplacce decides "new rules" for talking to women is a good idea. What are they? New rules for explaining things? Conversation? Interaction? Baffled."
Maybe I've just been exposed to shitting training in this regard but there is plenty of this kind of talk in practically every work place harassment training I've attended as an Electrician. Some people seem to need bright line rules like "address coworkers/apprentices by name and not things like Honey, Sweetee, or Good Lookin'" and "Instruct apprentices with words or example and not by wrapping yourself around them and positioning their hands" and "Don't be slapping people or either gender on the butt (or anywhere else for that matter)" and "Don't refer to minority employees by their minority grouping and that goes double for slang or derogatory versions of same".
posted by Mitheral at 8:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
These kinds of precautions abound in all sorts of situations. For example I work in hospitality and when we are in guest rooms we leave the door open. It is debatable whether that policy in place to prevent staff from stealing from guests or is in place to reduce false accusations.
Or take camps. Over the years camps have evolved from One Big Bunk Room where everyone shared a bathroom to separate facilities by gender to individual facilities (usually still separated by gender). No camps I've been in or heard of in the last 10 years have anyone sharing privacy facilities with someone of the opposite gender. The gang shower is a prime indicator of a very old camp. Sharing facilities with anyone is getting rarer. Even Jack and Jills (where two individual camp rooms share a toilet and shower but eiither resident has exclusive access when they are in there) are getting deprecated in favour of private, one per room, bathrooms. Most of that is recruitment based but some is harassment reduction based (which is also a recruitment tool).
agregoli: "I am just wondering what kind of workplacce decides "new rules" for talking to women is a good idea. What are they? New rules for explaining things? Conversation? Interaction? Baffled."
Maybe I've just been exposed to shitting training in this regard but there is plenty of this kind of talk in practically every work place harassment training I've attended as an Electrician. Some people seem to need bright line rules like "address coworkers/apprentices by name and not things like Honey, Sweetee, or Good Lookin'" and "Instruct apprentices with words or example and not by wrapping yourself around them and positioning their hands" and "Don't be slapping people or either gender on the butt (or anywhere else for that matter)" and "Don't refer to minority employees by their minority grouping and that goes double for slang or derogatory versions of same".
posted by Mitheral at 8:12 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of shocked that nobody here has been inappropriately groped by women in their workplace. This definitely happens to me every couple of years, sometimes more.
At least a dozen times for me, and I am a straight man, though I did work in a field with a high percentage of women for a long time. A large number of women seem to believe it "does not count" when a woman assaults a man, because of power imbalances or social conditioning or whatnot. Like male on female assaults, it is also underreported and usually goes unaddressed.
If and when we accomplish putting women into the same overwhelming positions of power that men enjoy in most of our society, and don't do anything else to address the *human problems* of people in power over other people, those women will become abusers too. We will have replaced one shitty group of authoritarians with another shitty group of authoritarians.
Short version: While we snipe at subgroups we miss the forest. People, in general, suck, and giving them power over other people makes them suck much harder, and much faster.
posted by rokusan at 8:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
At least a dozen times for me, and I am a straight man, though I did work in a field with a high percentage of women for a long time. A large number of women seem to believe it "does not count" when a woman assaults a man, because of power imbalances or social conditioning or whatnot. Like male on female assaults, it is also underreported and usually goes unaddressed.
If and when we accomplish putting women into the same overwhelming positions of power that men enjoy in most of our society, and don't do anything else to address the *human problems* of people in power over other people, those women will become abusers too. We will have replaced one shitty group of authoritarians with another shitty group of authoritarians.
Short version: While we snipe at subgroups we miss the forest. People, in general, suck, and giving them power over other people makes them suck much harder, and much faster.
posted by rokusan at 8:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
While we snipe at subgroups we miss the forest.
Your comment snipes at a subgroup — women who abuse men, which no one disputes happen but which I dispute needs to be brought up again, when this thread has already talked about it far more than the issue the article raises, which is that men are using the #metoo movement as an excuse to exclude women from mentoring and other spaces that men dominate.
It's kind of like how this conversation has been dominated by men who want to talk about their experiences.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 9:42 PM on January 28, 2019 [17 favorites]
Your comment snipes at a subgroup — women who abuse men, which no one disputes happen but which I dispute needs to be brought up again, when this thread has already talked about it far more than the issue the article raises, which is that men are using the #metoo movement as an excuse to exclude women from mentoring and other spaces that men dominate.
It's kind of like how this conversation has been dominated by men who want to talk about their experiences.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 9:42 PM on January 28, 2019 [17 favorites]
I've seen lots of women AND men talking about their experiences in this thread. All of which I have appreciated hearing.
posted by PhineasGage at 9:51 PM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 9:51 PM on January 28, 2019 [4 favorites]
I wonder if a good chunk of the mindset is from men who are willing to date or sleep around at work and are finally realizing that may have consequences.
False accusations are totally outside my professional experience and I can't imagine anyone worrying about them, especially not from any employee worthy of being mentored. "I think Jane would be a good CFO in a few years but she's probably going to ruin her career by fabricating stories of harassment if I spend time with her" is something no one said ever.
On the other hand accusations men consider "false" that followed actual relationships--I know about lots of those.
posted by mark k at 9:53 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
False accusations are totally outside my professional experience and I can't imagine anyone worrying about them, especially not from any employee worthy of being mentored. "I think Jane would be a good CFO in a few years but she's probably going to ruin her career by fabricating stories of harassment if I spend time with her" is something no one said ever.
On the other hand accusations men consider "false" that followed actual relationships--I know about lots of those.
posted by mark k at 9:53 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
Related to your point, mark_k, one example in the news just this week, although not in the workplace per se: author Jay Asher (Thirteen Reasons Why) filed a defamation lawsuit in the aftermath of accusations of misconduct, over what he says were consensual relationships.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:00 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 10:00 PM on January 28, 2019 [1 favorite]
While we snipe at subgroups we miss the forest.
Your comment snipes at a subgroup
Sigh. Literally does not. Which part of "all people" and the exposition that it has expressed itself to me as a human-wide problem, not a man or woman problem, offended you?
I know it is fashionable, but this narrow-beam blaming thing is going to destroy everyone.
posted by rokusan at 10:35 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Your comment snipes at a subgroup
Sigh. Literally does not. Which part of "all people" and the exposition that it has expressed itself to me as a human-wide problem, not a man or woman problem, offended you?
I know it is fashionable, but this narrow-beam blaming thing is going to destroy everyone.
posted by rokusan at 10:35 PM on January 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
This is not a people problem.
This is a problem with men.
Men who are in power.
We can sit here and talk about how women would probably be just as bad as men if they were in power, which is conjecture, or we can talk about the very real problem that affects women and other marginalized groups because of men, which is what the article is about.
I'm "offended" because the tactic of both-siderism isn't a good faith way to discuss this.
It's not "fashionable" or "narrow" to ask that we not continue to bring up "but women do this too" as a way to dismiss that men are the ones who are, by far, in power in the C-suite. Asking that we talk about the article in question isn't an outrageous request.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 10:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [20 favorites]
This is a problem with men.
Men who are in power.
We can sit here and talk about how women would probably be just as bad as men if they were in power, which is conjecture, or we can talk about the very real problem that affects women and other marginalized groups because of men, which is what the article is about.
I'm "offended" because the tactic of both-siderism isn't a good faith way to discuss this.
It's not "fashionable" or "narrow" to ask that we not continue to bring up "but women do this too" as a way to dismiss that men are the ones who are, by far, in power in the C-suite. Asking that we talk about the article in question isn't an outrageous request.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 10:56 PM on January 28, 2019 [20 favorites]
Mod note: Folks - the article is about a specific phenomenon that in the actual present world hurts women disproportionately. It's not great when that kind of thing turns into an occasion to talk about how women grope men, or women would hypothetically harm men in a far future scenario, or about how women do fake accusations so men are right to worry -- how women are no angels. Probably nobody intends this individually, but that kind of deflecting, topic-changing thing adds up - it's now summed and is going to erupt into a pillar of fire in here. So: drop it.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:00 PM on January 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:00 PM on January 28, 2019 [19 favorites]
I should preface this by noting that, for me, this is an academic concern. I'm junior enough that nobody expects or wants me to mentor anyone. And I have a job that's done entirely in the office, which is all open plan and glass walls, so even if/when I come to have any value as a mentor, I won't have to risk any appearance of impropriety to do so. However:
"Why are you afraid of a false accusation, disclaimer? I do not understand this mindset of avoiding situations when you know you will behave yourself and I want to."
I can't speak for disclaimer, but my fear comes from living through when my father was falsely accused of molesting a coworker and absolutely nothing could get HR to clear his name, not written statements from everyone else in the room at the time of the alleged assault, nor the accuser changing her story three times, nor even the accuser finally withdrawing her claim.
It was a terrifying experience for my whole family, and one that has left me with no faith that my innocence will be any defense once HR gets involved. I can only be grateful (and how messed up is it to be grateful for such a thing?) that my father's HR was completely ineffective and "investigated" for a decade until my father's entire department got laid off in the recession.
But, as I mentioned above, the company can eliminate the appearance of impropriety without eliminating the mentorship, and it's a choice if it doesn't. We all get separate hotel rooms on recruiting trips. One-on-one meetings happen in our cubicles where everyone can overhear what is said, or at least in glass-walled conference rooms where passersby can see that I'm not molesting anyone. Business meals are lunches in the cafeteria, not private dinners. The company makes us sign annual acknowledgements that all our work email, chat, etc. are archived and regularly reviewed for inappropriate conversation. I'm sure there are a thousand other things that could be done to make sure that even irrationally paranoid people like me should be able to talk to a woman without fear.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 11:26 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
"Why are you afraid of a false accusation, disclaimer? I do not understand this mindset of avoiding situations when you know you will behave yourself and I want to."
I can't speak for disclaimer, but my fear comes from living through when my father was falsely accused of molesting a coworker and absolutely nothing could get HR to clear his name, not written statements from everyone else in the room at the time of the alleged assault, nor the accuser changing her story three times, nor even the accuser finally withdrawing her claim.
It was a terrifying experience for my whole family, and one that has left me with no faith that my innocence will be any defense once HR gets involved. I can only be grateful (and how messed up is it to be grateful for such a thing?) that my father's HR was completely ineffective and "investigated" for a decade until my father's entire department got laid off in the recession.
But, as I mentioned above, the company can eliminate the appearance of impropriety without eliminating the mentorship, and it's a choice if it doesn't. We all get separate hotel rooms on recruiting trips. One-on-one meetings happen in our cubicles where everyone can overhear what is said, or at least in glass-walled conference rooms where passersby can see that I'm not molesting anyone. Business meals are lunches in the cafeteria, not private dinners. The company makes us sign annual acknowledgements that all our work email, chat, etc. are archived and regularly reviewed for inappropriate conversation. I'm sure there are a thousand other things that could be done to make sure that even irrationally paranoid people like me should be able to talk to a woman without fear.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 11:26 PM on January 28, 2019 [3 favorites]
Is this the Pence syndrome? The VP has said he will not be in a room alone with a woman without his wife being present.
Kinda wonder just what he is afraid of...
posted by Cranberry at 12:24 AM on January 29, 2019
Kinda wonder just what he is afraid of...
posted by Cranberry at 12:24 AM on January 29, 2019
Mitheral, I'm glad bright line rules are being laid down, I guess. But what you say they are...they are telling men in that job not to assault women. So these shouldn't be what I was responding to above, which were described as new rules.
posted by agregoli at 5:06 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by agregoli at 5:06 AM on January 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Which I interpreted as being in response to the #MeToo movement or at least within a more modern time frame.
posted by agregoli at 5:12 AM on January 29, 2019
posted by agregoli at 5:12 AM on January 29, 2019
men on Wall Street had never really gone out of their way to promote women before #MeToo, either.
Yep. Journalist Heidi Moore had a great short Twitter thread with some good links about why this article is nonsense. Here's how it starts:
This story is hilarious because the vast majority of women at Davos are paid escorts and mistresses. These are not men who are interacting with many professional business women, much less mentoring them.
More:
It's important to understand that a lot of rich, prominent men rarely or never interact w/ women they're not in financial control of: Wives, or employees, or mistresses. They literally have no frame of reference for a professional woman with independent ambitions. Mentoring? Lol.
posted by mediareport at 5:18 AM on January 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
Yep. Journalist Heidi Moore had a great short Twitter thread with some good links about why this article is nonsense. Here's how it starts:
This story is hilarious because the vast majority of women at Davos are paid escorts and mistresses. These are not men who are interacting with many professional business women, much less mentoring them.
More:
It's important to understand that a lot of rich, prominent men rarely or never interact w/ women they're not in financial control of: Wives, or employees, or mistresses. They literally have no frame of reference for a professional woman with independent ambitions. Mentoring? Lol.
posted by mediareport at 5:18 AM on January 29, 2019 [17 favorites]
It was a terrifying experience for my whole family, and one that has left me with no faith that my innocence will be any defense once HR gets involved. I can only be grateful (and how messed up is it to be grateful for such a thing?) that my father's HR was completely ineffective and "investigated" for a decade until my father's entire department got laid off in the recession.
HR is never there to represent the interests of employees, either individually or as a group. HR's function is to insulate the company from legal repercussions.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:04 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
HR is never there to represent the interests of employees, either individually or as a group. HR's function is to insulate the company from legal repercussions.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:04 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Also, I find the rationale for the "Graham rule" (i.e. to avoid the appearance of sexual impropriety) pretty hilarious considering that it's been a known thing since at least the 80s that men with religious, political & financial power can do whatever they want and frequently suffer no consequence. It's even become a cliche that preachers & other religious figures just go on TV and say Jesus forgave them, and everyone's mollified. Why even bother with the Graham rule after Jim Bakker et al?
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:10 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:10 AM on January 29, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm sure there are a thousand other things that could be done to make sure that even irrationally paranoid people like me should be able to talk to a woman without fear.
Yes, there are - but the question in this thread is whether we should do them, given the issues and problems involved. You openly admit that your position is one of irrational paranoia (born of actual trauma, it should be noted), which is why it shouldn't be used as a starting point. Furthermore, people would know why such policies were put in place, and that would negatively affect how women would be seen in the workplace in general - if the general assumption of corporate policy is "women are looking for an opportunity to ruin you", people pick up on that.
And as pointed out above, the purpose of HR is ultimately to cover the corporate derriere, which is the source of a lot of shitty HR policies. I'd imagine that their "policy" was to not close harassment claims that aren't "resolved" as an ass covering measure because the HR department cared most about lawsuits over employee morale.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:14 AM on January 29, 2019
Yes, there are - but the question in this thread is whether we should do them, given the issues and problems involved. You openly admit that your position is one of irrational paranoia (born of actual trauma, it should be noted), which is why it shouldn't be used as a starting point. Furthermore, people would know why such policies were put in place, and that would negatively affect how women would be seen in the workplace in general - if the general assumption of corporate policy is "women are looking for an opportunity to ruin you", people pick up on that.
And as pointed out above, the purpose of HR is ultimately to cover the corporate derriere, which is the source of a lot of shitty HR policies. I'd imagine that their "policy" was to not close harassment claims that aren't "resolved" as an ass covering measure because the HR department cared most about lawsuits over employee morale.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:14 AM on January 29, 2019
left me with no faith that my innocence will be any defense once HR gets involved
From what you've said here, it appears your father's innocence actually was a perfectly effective defense. If he continued to work there for another whole decade, it sounds like the only real complaint is that HR didn't publicly declare him to be innocent.
I may be misinterpreting your situation, but I feel like this response is very characteristic of the obstinacy with which men often approach this issue. The real, significant damages that women face - from sexual harassment to career stagnation - are minimized, while men's fears are magnified to the point of dominating the discussion.
Obviously nobody wants to be falsely accused, but if "I was investigated, but the accusation was withdrawn and no action was taken" is an unacceptable price to occasionally pay, there's not a whole lot of room for progress.
posted by parallellines at 7:45 AM on January 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
From what you've said here, it appears your father's innocence actually was a perfectly effective defense. If he continued to work there for another whole decade, it sounds like the only real complaint is that HR didn't publicly declare him to be innocent.
I may be misinterpreting your situation, but I feel like this response is very characteristic of the obstinacy with which men often approach this issue. The real, significant damages that women face - from sexual harassment to career stagnation - are minimized, while men's fears are magnified to the point of dominating the discussion.
Obviously nobody wants to be falsely accused, but if "I was investigated, but the accusation was withdrawn and no action was taken" is an unacceptable price to occasionally pay, there's not a whole lot of room for progress.
posted by parallellines at 7:45 AM on January 29, 2019 [21 favorites]
Look, I started reporting jerks early in my career. Then, a colleague tried to rape me (in the very early 2000's) and I didn't DO anything because I was drunk, I took a shower after, etc. and did things all "wrong". Looking back he clearly drugged me and I should have gone to the cops. Since that point IDGAF what crap HR is gonna pull and I'm gonna report scumbags, but I am, shall we say, unusual, and most people don't want to deal with the BS that HR will perpetrate because on the whole they do not care what happens to the person who reports, as long as they keep it quiet. Reporting is horrible and people do not do it for FUN.
posted by wellred at 8:11 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by wellred at 8:11 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
Today's Democracy Now! (trigger warning: description of rape, direct .mp4, alt link, .torrent, transcripts 1, 2), broadcast from the Sundance Film Festival this week, is almost entirely devoted to coverage of the new documentary Untouchable which details the criminal career of Harvey Weinstein, with some really great interviews with Rosanna Arquette, director Ursula Macfarlane, and former Weinstein Company employee Lauren O'Connor.
There's so much to it, particularly the O'Connor interview which is claimed to be her first television appearance, discussing the costs to her and others of opposing Weinstein, but a detail I hadn't picked up before is how many people this “security firm” Black Cube went after and how extensive their operations were, to the point of hiring other actors as agents.
From Weinstein's personal espionage/intimidation forces and Trump's sleazy lawyers and randos threatening women who'd had the misfortune of interacting with him and reporters, to a pipeline company's “security firm” unleashing dogs on Native Americans protecting their water source and Erik Prince wanting to be the colonial viceroy of American Afghanistan, these firms are quite tightly interwoven with the apex of patriarchy and white supremacy. “Security firm” is clearly a euphemism like changing “Department of War” to “Department of Defense” was, though I don't know what they should more properly be called.
But these guys can sure wail and gnash their teeth about how it's “like” a conspiracy the way everyone is willing to openly criticize their shit, and they have to have lunch meetings with their mentees and intern-fetched takeout in a conference room rather than expensing trips to restaurants.
posted by XMLicious at 11:05 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
There's so much to it, particularly the O'Connor interview which is claimed to be her first television appearance, discussing the costs to her and others of opposing Weinstein, but a detail I hadn't picked up before is how many people this “security firm” Black Cube went after and how extensive their operations were, to the point of hiring other actors as agents.
From Weinstein's personal espionage/intimidation forces and Trump's sleazy lawyers and randos threatening women who'd had the misfortune of interacting with him and reporters, to a pipeline company's “security firm” unleashing dogs on Native Americans protecting their water source and Erik Prince wanting to be the colonial viceroy of American Afghanistan, these firms are quite tightly interwoven with the apex of patriarchy and white supremacy. “Security firm” is clearly a euphemism like changing “Department of War” to “Department of Defense” was, though I don't know what they should more properly be called.
But these guys can sure wail and gnash their teeth about how it's “like” a conspiracy the way everyone is willing to openly criticize their shit, and they have to have lunch meetings with their mentees and intern-fetched takeout in a conference room rather than expensing trips to restaurants.
posted by XMLicious at 11:05 AM on January 29, 2019 [3 favorites]
This:
The phrase I've started using to describe this mindset, and the behaviors in which harassers engage because they feel entitled to act on this mindset, is "non-consensual objectification". It isn't just that they don't think women are real people; it's that they feel entitled to act on that belief. They feel entitled to violate consent.
posted by Flipping_Hades_Terwilliger at 11:09 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
" . . . The real problem is the constant dehumanization of women, that dudes can't hide just by avoiding a rulebook of specific behaviors.posted by corb at 11:40 AM on January 28 [45 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]
Like: why am I somehow not bothered on the occasions when my queer comrades or women talk about their sex life in work-type settings? It's not about the behavior of talking about sex life at work. Not talking about sex life at work is just the stop-gap measure because het dudes literally can't stop themselves from dehumanizing the person they're fucking, and it's really gross and toxic to hear. Because they can't stop themselves from saying things they know are taboo, because being taboo and shitty is the point.
I believe that these guys can't avoid being accused of sexual harassment when alone with women, because they basically are sexual harassment in a jar. They don't respect women as humans, and it shows.
The phrase I've started using to describe this mindset, and the behaviors in which harassers engage because they feel entitled to act on this mindset, is "non-consensual objectification". It isn't just that they don't think women are real people; it's that they feel entitled to act on that belief. They feel entitled to violate consent.
posted by Flipping_Hades_Terwilliger at 11:09 AM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
It wasn't about her emails; it's not about ethics in video games; they don't really mean that journalists should learn how to code; these cretins were never mentoring women to begin with, etc. Half point to NYT for ending on a skeptical note with Stephanie Ruhle, but I'm so sick of running on this pointless discourse treadmill.
posted by grandiloquiet at 12:01 PM on January 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 12:01 PM on January 29, 2019 [10 favorites]
Well, it's not like women are free to sit in a hotel bar and drink on their own, either. Per this tweet: So apparently the Marriott Hotel chains are directly working with the feds and keeping eye on any women who are traveling alone. Some are also not allowing some women drink at the bar alone. All to stop “sex trafficking”. They are training employees how to “spot a escort”.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:53 PM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 3:53 PM on January 29, 2019 [6 favorites]
it sounds like the only real complaint is that HR didn't publicly declare him to be innocent.
My complaint is that my father spent ten years coming to work afraid that today was yet another day when he would be interrogated for hours in an unfamiliar language about something 7 out of 8 people in the room agree didn't happen five years ago.
(These numbers are not true but neither are they deceptive. How HR thought it could meaningfully question a man about an arbitrary day years in the past I have no idea, but many aspects of this process seemed more about recording the right statements regardless of how credible they were. Or maybe just harassing him into quitting.)
Or that this person would change her story yet again, and he'd have to try to figure out who was in a room on some random date, and if they hadn't already submitted blanket statements denying having ever seen him molest anyone, track them down now, and convince them to write that statement.
Or worse, that they would finally fire him and his family would lose the majority of its income. There were times when we speculated that HR was just keeping the case open because some of the benefits and protections in his contract depend on good conduct.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 6:52 AM on January 30, 2019
My complaint is that my father spent ten years coming to work afraid that today was yet another day when he would be interrogated for hours in an unfamiliar language about something 7 out of 8 people in the room agree didn't happen five years ago.
(These numbers are not true but neither are they deceptive. How HR thought it could meaningfully question a man about an arbitrary day years in the past I have no idea, but many aspects of this process seemed more about recording the right statements regardless of how credible they were. Or maybe just harassing him into quitting.)
Or that this person would change her story yet again, and he'd have to try to figure out who was in a room on some random date, and if they hadn't already submitted blanket statements denying having ever seen him molest anyone, track them down now, and convince them to write that statement.
Or worse, that they would finally fire him and his family would lose the majority of its income. There were times when we speculated that HR was just keeping the case open because some of the benefits and protections in his contract depend on good conduct.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 6:52 AM on January 30, 2019
Again, all of that is the HR department being horrible. And punishing women for their sins is not the answer.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:09 AM on January 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:09 AM on January 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
Yes, everything that happened to your dad is awful. He is a single person who was treated badly by his personal HR department and that is not okay. Meanwhile, most women in the US experience workplace discrimination ranging from sexual harassment to microaggressions to just the failure to mentor on a regular basis. I think most people would rather change things to help protect all women in the US from ongoing discrimination rather than to protect a few individual men who may have experienced something unpleasant once.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:16 AM on January 30, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 8:16 AM on January 30, 2019 [10 favorites]
Also, I find the rationale for the "Graham rule" (i.e. to avoid the appearance of sexual impropriety) pretty hilarious considering that it's been a known thing since at least the 80s that men with religious, political & financial power can do whatever they want and frequently suffer no consequence. It's even become a cliche that preachers & other religious figures just go on TV and say Jesus forgave them, and everyone's mollified. Why even bother with the Graham rule after Jim Bakker et al?
Because you don't want to be like Jim Bakker? That doesn't seem mysterious to me.
It seems a little weird to me to call this the Graham rule, because that rule arose out of a completely different context. Let me talk about Christian ministry for a second. It's a predominantly male profession, especially when Graham rose to prominence, and it's a profession with notoriously tricky boundaries. Pastors are often expected to "counsel" hurting people, and they do that to the best of their ability, but only a handful are licensed counselors--most have, at best, a seminary class or two in ministry to people in crisis. You wind up with all the same powerful dynamics and transference issues a therapist deals with, but with far less training, all on your own. On top of that, people can develop all kinds of feelings about authority figures, especially through who speak to them kindly and encouragingly, and those who--in some sense--represent God to them. The average church in America has 75 members and the average pastor is barely making ends meet, trying to manage impossible expectations, and barely treading water trying to be a dynamic public speaker, a counselor, a community organizer, a child care provider and six dozen other things. There's a reason that only one in ten seminary grads will retire as a pastor. Burn out is rampant.
Anyone in ministry knows five different stories of ministry peers who didn't manage their boundaries well and had an affair that ended their career. 90% of those stories are "well meaning lonely pastor was asked to help a woman in crisis, and the emotional exchange became intense, then sexual." Depending on which study you are looking at, the number of pastors who have had affairs while in ministry is between 30-40%. These are generally not predatory or callous people, and they generally are wracked with guilt for letting their emotions have sway, and they pretty much all lose their jobs when the affair is discovered.
So, among evangelical ministers, the popularity of the Graham rule makes a lot of sense. In most churches, it doesn't hurt anyone. These aren't big exciting businesses where there are lots of chances to climb the corporate ladder. There's often no other staff at all--just the pastor. So, to make sure he keeps things professional, knowing how frequently other pastors have messed this up, he follows the Graham rule. When I've seen this in practice, it looks like this: You only visit family homes when more than one person is present. If you need to have a pastoral conversation with a woman, you have it at the church office, with a door or window open, at a time when a secretary or some volunteers will be around. If you need to meet for lunch, you always meet in a public place, preferably with a third person along. None of this seems harmful or extreme to me, and I followed similar practices during my time in ministry. For that matter, I applied it across the board--men, women, gay, straight, whatever. We are either in public, or there's a third person around who can see us, even if they can't hear us. Having these practices didn't stop me from engaging in ministry; I just took a little extra care about scheduling times and places.
Now: to take this out of the world of ministry and apply it to something like a business mentorship, which doesn't have anything close to the same level of intimate emotional disclose as pastoral conversations, and to use it as an excuse to not do your damn job, or not offer opportunities fairly to everyone, is a really dumbass application of the Graham rule. The Graham rule is about doing ministry responsibly. It's not about running businesses unfairly.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:57 AM on January 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
Because you don't want to be like Jim Bakker? That doesn't seem mysterious to me.
It seems a little weird to me to call this the Graham rule, because that rule arose out of a completely different context. Let me talk about Christian ministry for a second. It's a predominantly male profession, especially when Graham rose to prominence, and it's a profession with notoriously tricky boundaries. Pastors are often expected to "counsel" hurting people, and they do that to the best of their ability, but only a handful are licensed counselors--most have, at best, a seminary class or two in ministry to people in crisis. You wind up with all the same powerful dynamics and transference issues a therapist deals with, but with far less training, all on your own. On top of that, people can develop all kinds of feelings about authority figures, especially through who speak to them kindly and encouragingly, and those who--in some sense--represent God to them. The average church in America has 75 members and the average pastor is barely making ends meet, trying to manage impossible expectations, and barely treading water trying to be a dynamic public speaker, a counselor, a community organizer, a child care provider and six dozen other things. There's a reason that only one in ten seminary grads will retire as a pastor. Burn out is rampant.
Anyone in ministry knows five different stories of ministry peers who didn't manage their boundaries well and had an affair that ended their career. 90% of those stories are "well meaning lonely pastor was asked to help a woman in crisis, and the emotional exchange became intense, then sexual." Depending on which study you are looking at, the number of pastors who have had affairs while in ministry is between 30-40%. These are generally not predatory or callous people, and they generally are wracked with guilt for letting their emotions have sway, and they pretty much all lose their jobs when the affair is discovered.
So, among evangelical ministers, the popularity of the Graham rule makes a lot of sense. In most churches, it doesn't hurt anyone. These aren't big exciting businesses where there are lots of chances to climb the corporate ladder. There's often no other staff at all--just the pastor. So, to make sure he keeps things professional, knowing how frequently other pastors have messed this up, he follows the Graham rule. When I've seen this in practice, it looks like this: You only visit family homes when more than one person is present. If you need to have a pastoral conversation with a woman, you have it at the church office, with a door or window open, at a time when a secretary or some volunteers will be around. If you need to meet for lunch, you always meet in a public place, preferably with a third person along. None of this seems harmful or extreme to me, and I followed similar practices during my time in ministry. For that matter, I applied it across the board--men, women, gay, straight, whatever. We are either in public, or there's a third person around who can see us, even if they can't hear us. Having these practices didn't stop me from engaging in ministry; I just took a little extra care about scheduling times and places.
Now: to take this out of the world of ministry and apply it to something like a business mentorship, which doesn't have anything close to the same level of intimate emotional disclose as pastoral conversations, and to use it as an excuse to not do your damn job, or not offer opportunities fairly to everyone, is a really dumbass application of the Graham rule. The Graham rule is about doing ministry responsibly. It's not about running businesses unfairly.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:57 AM on January 30, 2019 [13 favorites]
He is a single person who was treated badly by his personal HR department and that is not okay. Meanwhile, most women in the US experience workplace discrimination ranging from sexual harassment to microaggressions to just the failure to mentor on a regular basis
Yes, but he's a man, so this conversation should absolutely be about him, and not the millions of women who have been, are, and will be victimized by men. Is this only the second "what about the men?" derail in this thread?
It's a predominantly male profession, especially when Graham rose to prominence, and it's a profession with notoriously tricky boundaries.
These things are not coincidental. It's frankly bizarre to talk about how a patriarchal rule works in a patriarchal culture as though that somehow absolves it of the damage it does. It doesn't.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:26 AM on January 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
Yes, but he's a man, so this conversation should absolutely be about him, and not the millions of women who have been, are, and will be victimized by men. Is this only the second "what about the men?" derail in this thread?
It's a predominantly male profession, especially when Graham rose to prominence, and it's a profession with notoriously tricky boundaries.
These things are not coincidental. It's frankly bizarre to talk about how a patriarchal rule works in a patriarchal culture as though that somehow absolves it of the damage it does. It doesn't.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:26 AM on January 30, 2019 [7 favorites]
Because you don't want to be like Jim Bakker? That doesn't seem mysterious to me.
Why? It's not like he's doing poorly:
they broadcast from the Studio City Café, a restaurant in Branson, Mo., that was converted into a TV studio. The millionaire who made it happen was developer Jerry Crawford, a one-time PTL Partner who credited Bakker and PTL for saving his marriage years before, according to “The Jim Bakker Show” website.
By 2008, the Bakkers had moved their TV ministry to Blue Eye, a rural town of about 170 people a mile north of the Arkansas line. Crawford paid a reported $17 million to buy the 800-acre property and construct Morningside’s main building, with more than 100 condos.
Since then, Bakker’s Morningside Church has bought nearly 500 acres of the property from Crawford, said Mark Graham.
Not too bad for a supposedly career-ending scandal.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 2:04 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Why? It's not like he's doing poorly:
they broadcast from the Studio City Café, a restaurant in Branson, Mo., that was converted into a TV studio. The millionaire who made it happen was developer Jerry Crawford, a one-time PTL Partner who credited Bakker and PTL for saving his marriage years before, according to “The Jim Bakker Show” website.
By 2008, the Bakkers had moved their TV ministry to Blue Eye, a rural town of about 170 people a mile north of the Arkansas line. Crawford paid a reported $17 million to buy the 800-acre property and construct Morningside’s main building, with more than 100 condos.
Since then, Bakker’s Morningside Church has bought nearly 500 acres of the property from Crawford, said Mark Graham.
Not too bad for a supposedly career-ending scandal.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 2:04 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
None of this seems harmful or extreme to me, and I followed similar practices during my time in ministry.
This is the problem. You say that this practice doesn't seem harmful, even when you have an entire thread of women telling you explicitly that yes, this practice is, in fact, rather harmful, because it paints women as untrustworthy and worse. As you yourself pointed out, the actual problem is clergy not being given the tools to do their job successfully - that's what needs to be fixed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:18 PM on January 31, 2019 [6 favorites]
This is the problem. You say that this practice doesn't seem harmful, even when you have an entire thread of women telling you explicitly that yes, this practice is, in fact, rather harmful, because it paints women as untrustworthy and worse. As you yourself pointed out, the actual problem is clergy not being given the tools to do their job successfully - that's what needs to be fixed.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:18 PM on January 31, 2019 [6 favorites]
That's not quite fair - it isn't painting only women as anything. One could just as easily describe such rules as insulting to men for implying that they can't control themselves. (To wit, all the genuinely horrifying and deplorable examples cited above and elsewhere.) It takes two to tango, and humans are, well, human. Setting up social structures and rules to minimize chances of improprieties - especially in emotionally intense situations - doesn't seem to be harmful either to women or men.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:27 PM on January 31, 2019
posted by PhineasGage at 10:27 PM on January 31, 2019
Setting up social structures and rules to minimize chances of improprieties - especially in emotionally intense situations - doesn't seem to be harmful either to women or men.
Again, we have an entire thread above where women are saying, rather clearly, that these social structures are harmful. And when you "avoid improprities" by refusing to treat a woman as a fellow person, that always sends a message.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:37 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Again, we have an entire thread above where women are saying, rather clearly, that these social structures are harmful. And when you "avoid improprities" by refusing to treat a woman as a fellow person, that always sends a message.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:37 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also, I have commented several times in other threads that the usual "excuses" given for men being unable to control themselves because of hormones/libido/other bullshit incenses me because it insults me through my gender, saying that I can't be trusted because I'm male. So yeah - these policies hurt both men and women, which is why they need to be ended.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:43 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:43 PM on January 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
I am referring not to workplace mentoring but to the explicitly pastoral situations and rules that Pater Aletheias was explaining. "Refusing to treat a woman as a fellow person" is a nonsensical description of what he is describing. To pretend that people don't have the potential to develop attractions to each other - and that in certain situations those attractions would be harmful and inappropriate - is not in any way disparaging men or women.
posted by PhineasGage at 10:45 PM on January 31, 2019
posted by PhineasGage at 10:45 PM on January 31, 2019
Reread the comment by Pater Aletheias. Men and women have been shown to have had attractions to each other in pastoral situations that led to harms. What do you propose to do instead to help head this off, if you think the existing policies are hurtful?
posted by PhineasGage at 10:48 PM on January 31, 2019
posted by PhineasGage at 10:48 PM on January 31, 2019
What do you propose to do instead to help head this off, if you think the existing policies are hurtful?
I actually answered this in the comment that you took offense to:
As you yourself pointed out, the actual problem is clergy not being given the tools to do their job successfully - that's what needs to be fixed.
He pointed out in that comment that most clergy are given little formal training in counseling in seminary, which is where the problem stems from. Thus, the solution is to actually include training in counseling as part of the training of new clergy, especially given that counseling is a major part of the vocation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:57 PM on January 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
I actually answered this in the comment that you took offense to:
As you yourself pointed out, the actual problem is clergy not being given the tools to do their job successfully - that's what needs to be fixed.
He pointed out in that comment that most clergy are given little formal training in counseling in seminary, which is where the problem stems from. Thus, the solution is to actually include training in counseling as part of the training of new clergy, especially given that counseling is a major part of the vocation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:57 PM on January 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yes, that would be great. Before stepping behind closed doors, providers of counseling absolutely should learn about transference as well as their own potential emotions in a therapeutic interaction. But right now those resources aren't available, as detailed above by Pater. And that still leaves (and in fact reinforces) the core point: creating rules for "open doors while doing pastoral counseling" acknowledges and tries to addresses the complications of human emotions - it isn't denying the humanity of either women or men and is working toward avoiding the types of harms also detailed above.
posted by PhineasGage at 8:53 AM on February 1, 2019
posted by PhineasGage at 8:53 AM on February 1, 2019
working toward avoiding the types of harms also detailed above
No. Treating women as a separate but "equal" class of people does absolutely fucking nothing to avoid the types of harm caused by treating women as separate but "equal."
This is not a new idea.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:45 AM on February 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
No. Treating women as a separate but "equal" class of people does absolutely fucking nothing to avoid the types of harm caused by treating women as separate but "equal."
This is not a new idea.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:45 AM on February 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
Not to mention that it just makes shit weird for those of us who aren't straight. How do male clergy handle someone like me, for whom there is a 0% chance that I am going to fall in bed with them--and how do straight female clergy? Do we presume that bisexual or pansexual clergy exist? How does proprietary gendered behavior apply to us?
Seriously, I see why y'all have this system, but it is predicated on a lot of assumptions that really highlight who is supposed to be tempting and who is expected to be tempted. And it disproportionately harms women and disproportionately allows men, assumed to be "safe", to experience greater intimacy and connection while women are siloed off from these resources--after all, female clergy are an awful lot thinner on the ground. (And in some denominations, they don't exist, full stop.)
posted by sciatrix at 9:50 AM on February 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
Seriously, I see why y'all have this system, but it is predicated on a lot of assumptions that really highlight who is supposed to be tempting and who is expected to be tempted. And it disproportionately harms women and disproportionately allows men, assumed to be "safe", to experience greater intimacy and connection while women are siloed off from these resources--after all, female clergy are an awful lot thinner on the ground. (And in some denominations, they don't exist, full stop.)
posted by sciatrix at 9:50 AM on February 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
from the comment under discussion:
For that matter, I applied it across the board--men, women, gay, straight, whatever.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:03 AM on February 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
For that matter, I applied it across the board--men, women, gay, straight, whatever.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:03 AM on February 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Right, but the method doesn't intrinsically contain that--that's Pater Alethias modifying it in a way that is more fair.
In the same way, the bullshit excuse that these senior business dudes are pulling is that they have to avoid young women ever being alone in aspects of their job in case of false accusations or getting entangled in illicit sex shit, but not young men. That creates disparities in networking and professional mentoring for young women that are entirely outside of their own control.
posted by sciatrix at 11:05 AM on February 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
In the same way, the bullshit excuse that these senior business dudes are pulling is that they have to avoid young women ever being alone in aspects of their job in case of false accusations or getting entangled in illicit sex shit, but not young men. That creates disparities in networking and professional mentoring for young women that are entirely outside of their own control.
posted by sciatrix at 11:05 AM on February 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
then I am in favor of the Pater Alethias Rule supplanting the Billy Graham Rule.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:17 AM on February 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:17 AM on February 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think it gets more complicated with church settings than with businesses for some weird reasons that are by their definition impossible to make fair, but also, there are ways to make them so.
Like - so okay, in my own church, you have a moral duty to avoid 'the near occasion of sin', basically the circumstances and people that make it much more likely for you to do the wrong thing than to do the right thing. So, if you know that you are strongly tempted to do the wrong thing with women, it makes sense to avoid meeting personally with women, just like the person in AA should not be in charge of hosting the wine event...but in my view, you should also probably not be in a leadership role, if you have a strong temptation that will prevent you from interfacing fairly with your congregation.
posted by corb at 12:34 PM on February 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Like - so okay, in my own church, you have a moral duty to avoid 'the near occasion of sin', basically the circumstances and people that make it much more likely for you to do the wrong thing than to do the right thing. So, if you know that you are strongly tempted to do the wrong thing with women, it makes sense to avoid meeting personally with women, just like the person in AA should not be in charge of hosting the wine event...but in my view, you should also probably not be in a leadership role, if you have a strong temptation that will prevent you from interfacing fairly with your congregation.
posted by corb at 12:34 PM on February 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don't think you have to say there's nothing wrong with the "Billy Graham Rule" to appreciate Pater Alethias's point that the dudes in this article aren't even following that rule.
They aren't saying, "I don't want to put myself in a situation where I might do something inappropriate," they're saying something worse: "I don't want to be alone with a woman because she might be one of those women who threaten men with accusations of sexual harassment."
Which really puts their precautions down at the despicable level of "I don't want a Muslim riding on my flight because they might be a terrorist."
posted by straight at 2:15 PM on February 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
They aren't saying, "I don't want to put myself in a situation where I might do something inappropriate," they're saying something worse: "I don't want to be alone with a woman because she might be one of those women who threaten men with accusations of sexual harassment."
Which really puts their precautions down at the despicable level of "I don't want a Muslim riding on my flight because they might be a terrorist."
posted by straight at 2:15 PM on February 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
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posted by schadenfrau at 10:28 AM on January 28, 2019 [145 favorites]