Update on 'Right to Repair' Activism
February 3, 2019 8:03 AM Subscribe
"In the EU and at least 18 U.S. states, regulators are starting to listen and considering proposals that address the impact of planned obsolescence by making household goods sturdier and easier to mend."
The article doesn't mention whether this movement addresses manufacturer's use of integrated components, such that these larger, more expensive components have to be entirely replaced, rather than just the subset that's malfunctioning.
The article doesn't mention whether this movement addresses manufacturer's use of integrated components, such that these larger, more expensive components have to be entirely replaced, rather than just the subset that's malfunctioning.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- loup
I just started a Fixit Clinic at my public library. It is hugely popular. We have about a 75% repair rate.
posted by zakur at 9:18 AM on February 3, 2019 [51 favorites]
posted by zakur at 9:18 AM on February 3, 2019 [51 favorites]
I feel like I have seen a lot of DIY videos where for parts somebody buys a complete packaged gizmo and tears it apart for some little bit of it. One of the frustrations is that it is cheaper or the same cost to "Just buy a new one." I have fixed things just to spite myself but it does seem foolish to spend 50% of the cost of a new power tool to replace a switch.
One thing I miss from the pre offshoring days and the pre "rise of china" days, is the abundance of parts, scrap, services and common knowledge that used to go along with having a lot of manufacturing around.
posted by Pembquist at 9:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
One thing I miss from the pre offshoring days and the pre "rise of china" days, is the abundance of parts, scrap, services and common knowledge that used to go along with having a lot of manufacturing around.
posted by Pembquist at 9:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [16 favorites]
So the one thing I'll say about Tupperware and other brands is that Ikea currently has a system called 365+ where every damn bowl has plastic and glass versions and three different types of compatible lids.
Highly tempting for stockpiling here in Brexit Britain.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 9:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
Highly tempting for stockpiling here in Brexit Britain.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 9:31 AM on February 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
My washing machine is from the 1990s. The guy who repaired it when a part in the motor broke told me that I should make sure I never replace it, it's the last generation of washing machines that are designed to last decades and can actually be repaired.
posted by graymouser at 9:37 AM on February 3, 2019 [30 favorites]
posted by graymouser at 9:37 AM on February 3, 2019 [30 favorites]
Ikea currently has a system called 365+ where every damn bowl has plastic and glass versions and three different types of compatible lids.
but will it still be compatible with whatever's on the shelves in three years? That's what needs to be ensured.
posted by philip-random at 9:39 AM on February 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
but will it still be compatible with whatever's on the shelves in three years? That's what needs to be ensured.
posted by philip-random at 9:39 AM on February 3, 2019 [7 favorites]
One of the frustrations is that it is cheaper or the same cost to "Just buy a new one."
my almost ten year old Mackie mixer has a loose connection somewhere deep inside. I recently looked in to getting it repaired. Turns out the minimum labor cost is going to be sixty plus bucks whereas I can buy a new Mackie for about the same price, maybe less. Granted, it's not near as well made as the older one, but given that it retails at about one-third the price of what I originally paid, it seems rather pointless to pursue repair.
All of this circles around something David Suzuki said years ago concerning the problem of garbage, landfills, the whole vast culture of waste in which we find ourselves. "The traditional way of pricing a consumer item is to factor in all the costs associated with first extracting all the raw materials from the environment, then manufacturing, distribution, marketing, retail etc, plus some profit for the retailer. What's missing in this equation is the cost of safely returning the raw materials to the environment. Until we (consumers) are ready to pay that, we don't have a hope of reconciling the mess we're in."
posted by philip-random at 9:50 AM on February 3, 2019 [37 favorites]
my almost ten year old Mackie mixer has a loose connection somewhere deep inside. I recently looked in to getting it repaired. Turns out the minimum labor cost is going to be sixty plus bucks whereas I can buy a new Mackie for about the same price, maybe less. Granted, it's not near as well made as the older one, but given that it retails at about one-third the price of what I originally paid, it seems rather pointless to pursue repair.
All of this circles around something David Suzuki said years ago concerning the problem of garbage, landfills, the whole vast culture of waste in which we find ourselves. "The traditional way of pricing a consumer item is to factor in all the costs associated with first extracting all the raw materials from the environment, then manufacturing, distribution, marketing, retail etc, plus some profit for the retailer. What's missing in this equation is the cost of safely returning the raw materials to the environment. Until we (consumers) are ready to pay that, we don't have a hope of reconciling the mess we're in."
posted by philip-random at 9:50 AM on February 3, 2019 [37 favorites]
It would be boss if new products came with a new product excise tax or something, where repairs to existing goods could be paid from that pool, or tax deducted or something.
I vaguely remember something like this with certain municipalities charging disposal fees for mattresses up front st the time of purchase. Then you just call up the county disposal service and they haul it off for free.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:43 AM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I vaguely remember something like this with certain municipalities charging disposal fees for mattresses up front st the time of purchase. Then you just call up the county disposal service and they haul it off for free.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:43 AM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I would be infinitely happy if this caught on in the same way sustainable approaches to food and sundries did. Unfortunately, most of us millennials who are interested in the movement live in apartments where we really don't get to choose our major appliances. So while we're willing to pay more for cage-free eggs and humanely tested, bar-not-bottle shampoo, our kitchens are outside of our jurisdiction.
posted by es_de_bah at 10:45 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by es_de_bah at 10:45 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
I like regulatory constraints on intentionally making products hard to repair (e.g., fasteners that aren't compatible with standard tools) ... but many industrial processes that make products much better and/or cheaper make them unsuited to end-user or repair-shop fixes. We don't want to be able to fix cell phones the way that we could fix an analog two-way radio because then we'd get a cell phone with about the capability of an old analogy two-way radio. Big screen TVs the guy down at the appliance store could fix were three feet deep, weighted over 100 pounds, and were 480i and 4k/60fps.
posted by MattD at 10:58 AM on February 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by MattD at 10:58 AM on February 3, 2019 [9 favorites]
I heard that one of the reasons that dishwashers have such a ridiculously short lifespan now is that whatever they've done to make them more water efficient ALSO shortens the lifespan. Does anybody know if that's true? On a similar note, washing only at 30 reduces the lifespan of your front-loading washing machine, so you might as well wash your towels at 60.
When my parents' old dishwasher broke, they just put in the "spare" one they've been moving around for ten years. It's already lasted longer than a genuinely new one would. I'd love to at least have the choice to spend more and get better made, longer lasting appliances, but these days the higher cost versions just seem to have more LED screens and pre-programs and fancy knobs.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:25 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
When my parents' old dishwasher broke, they just put in the "spare" one they've been moving around for ten years. It's already lasted longer than a genuinely new one would. I'd love to at least have the choice to spend more and get better made, longer lasting appliances, but these days the higher cost versions just seem to have more LED screens and pre-programs and fancy knobs.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:25 AM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
We don't want to be able to fix cell phones the way that we could fix an analog two-way radio because then we'd get a cell phone with about the capability of an old analogy two-way radio.
A cell phone with a bit more modularity would be nice. Screens could be easy to replace with minimal labor, for example, which would be consumer friendly but maybe kill a lot of the new cell phone business.
posted by surlyben at 11:27 AM on February 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
A cell phone with a bit more modularity would be nice. Screens could be easy to replace with minimal labor, for example, which would be consumer friendly but maybe kill a lot of the new cell phone business.
posted by surlyben at 11:27 AM on February 3, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'd settle for being able to easily replace cellphone batteries like you used to, since at the 2 year mark those always suck.
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:28 AM on February 3, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by stillnocturnal at 11:28 AM on February 3, 2019 [23 favorites]
We don't want to be able to fix cell phones the way that we could fix an analog two-way radio because then we'd get a cell phone with about the capability of an old analogy two-way radio. Big screen TVs the guy down at the appliance store could fix were three feet deep, weighted over 100 pounds, and were 480i and 4k/60fps.
I’m unclear on what you mean. How would making products durable and fixable result in everyone travelling back in time?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:40 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
I’m unclear on what you mean. How would making products durable and fixable result in everyone travelling back in time?
posted by Sys Rq at 11:40 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
A friend of mine was just talking about the EU right to repair legislation. The rest of us in the conversation hadn't heard about it but we all agreed it was a great step in the right direction.
My house came with a 1990s era (could be older) washer and dryer that are almost certainly not very energy efficient. I bought my house on my own and had very little money left after the purchase, so rather than spend money I didn't have to to replace the washer and dryer, I decided to wait for a while (I figured once they broke down I'd replace them).
Well, it's 15 years later and while I am no longer broke or solely responsible for household expenses, we still haven't replaced them because they are still going strong, and frankly I just hear stories from everyone else about how their newer machines go on the fritz on a regular basis.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:43 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
My house came with a 1990s era (could be older) washer and dryer that are almost certainly not very energy efficient. I bought my house on my own and had very little money left after the purchase, so rather than spend money I didn't have to to replace the washer and dryer, I decided to wait for a while (I figured once they broke down I'd replace them).
Well, it's 15 years later and while I am no longer broke or solely responsible for household expenses, we still haven't replaced them because they are still going strong, and frankly I just hear stories from everyone else about how their newer machines go on the fritz on a regular basis.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:43 AM on February 3, 2019 [8 favorites]
A cell phone with a bit more modularity would be nice. Screens could be easy to replace with minimal labor, for example, which would be consumer friendly but maybe kill a lot of the new cell phone business.
I'm hoping Fairphone becomes available in the US.
posted by lharmon at 11:56 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm hoping Fairphone becomes available in the US.
posted by lharmon at 11:56 AM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
When the original Nokia featurephones of the late 1990s/early 2000s first reached the developing world, it was their ability to be repaired from spare parts hacked from other Nokia models, as well as their durability and ease of use, that helped create an entirely new profession and avenue for employment for young people, especially men.
Cell Phone Repairers in Cameroon, 2000-2013 (direct to PDF)
This article focuses on cell phone repairers in Cameroon history. It examines how the cell phone has been appropriated by Cameroonians by repairing and extending its life. It questions the ways the repairers have understood the inner parts of the cell phones. How has the repairing of cell phones led to sustaining the livelihood of the repairers?
[...]
Cell phones have become an absolute necessity but behind and inside this gadget lay a complex world that is mostly out of sight. Using mostly interviews with the people implicated in the process, this paper contends that technology comes with its own creativity and youths are always the firebrands to understand and use it more than any other age group
(2017) From roadside jugaad to unicorn-run chains, mobile repair is now serious business in India
and Pakistan(2016)
posted by infini at 12:08 PM on February 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
Cell Phone Repairers in Cameroon, 2000-2013 (direct to PDF)
This article focuses on cell phone repairers in Cameroon history. It examines how the cell phone has been appropriated by Cameroonians by repairing and extending its life. It questions the ways the repairers have understood the inner parts of the cell phones. How has the repairing of cell phones led to sustaining the livelihood of the repairers?
[...]
Cell phones have become an absolute necessity but behind and inside this gadget lay a complex world that is mostly out of sight. Using mostly interviews with the people implicated in the process, this paper contends that technology comes with its own creativity and youths are always the firebrands to understand and use it more than any other age group
(2017) From roadside jugaad to unicorn-run chains, mobile repair is now serious business in India
and Pakistan(2016)
posted by infini at 12:08 PM on February 3, 2019 [13 favorites]
Similarly, I recently bought a house that still has its Sears Kenmore dryer from the early 80s, complete with some faux wood panel stylings. I cringe sometimes wondering about its energy efficiency, but the thing is clearly built to last forever; two plumbers and an appliance repair guy (who had to fix something on the fridge that is only 7 years old) told me to keep using it as long as it will go because dryers definitely aren't built this well anymore.
posted by TwoStride at 12:25 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 12:25 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
My worst appliance is the dehumidifier (the same general mechanical bits are what is inside air conditioners).
They generally last until the refrigerant leaks out from the compressor circuit. This is almost inevitable, since it's soldered piping connected to stuff which vibrates. They also need cleaning, which involves disassembling the entire unit, since the condensation run-off tray is cast integrally with the casing. Cleaning is likely to decrease the life-span of the unit since the way the radiators and compressor piping are run they have to be stressed a bit to extract them from the casing so you can clean everything.
I assume all of this comes from the need to save sixteen cents over having a removable tray to collect the condensate, but instead every two years the unit expires...it's $200 to get another.
And the best part of that is that the refuse is now "toxic" in that the refrigerant is household hazardous waste...despite the fact there is none left, it's already in the atmosphere. So disposing of the old one is a huge hassle, too.
I guess I'm griping about the fact that the only consideration is about putting the device together and hoping it runs for the one-month it's guaranteed to run, none is given to maintenance nor to disposal.
I feel awful anytime I have to take a complex, many-kilogram device to the dump.
posted by maxwelton at 12:43 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
They generally last until the refrigerant leaks out from the compressor circuit. This is almost inevitable, since it's soldered piping connected to stuff which vibrates. They also need cleaning, which involves disassembling the entire unit, since the condensation run-off tray is cast integrally with the casing. Cleaning is likely to decrease the life-span of the unit since the way the radiators and compressor piping are run they have to be stressed a bit to extract them from the casing so you can clean everything.
I assume all of this comes from the need to save sixteen cents over having a removable tray to collect the condensate, but instead every two years the unit expires...it's $200 to get another.
And the best part of that is that the refuse is now "toxic" in that the refrigerant is household hazardous waste...despite the fact there is none left, it's already in the atmosphere. So disposing of the old one is a huge hassle, too.
I guess I'm griping about the fact that the only consideration is about putting the device together and hoping it runs for the one-month it's guaranteed to run, none is given to maintenance nor to disposal.
I feel awful anytime I have to take a complex, many-kilogram device to the dump.
posted by maxwelton at 12:43 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I recently bought a house that still has its Sears Kenmore dryer from the early 80s, complete with some faux wood panel stylings. I cringe sometimes wondering about its energy efficiency
I wouldn't worry too much. Electric clothes dryers, at least the ones popular in the US, haven't changed much. They have a shitload of resistive heating coils and they blow air over them to heat it, then move the hot air through the tumbling clothes to dry them, and exhaust the hot/moist air to the outside. That's it. There's not really any way to make that process more efficient; it's a space heater, basically.
The newer ones add some microprocessors and shittily-made membrane keypad switches, but fundamentally it's the same thing.
You don't get any real efficiency gains until you get to the very latest generation of machines that are basically dehumidifiers—they have a refrigerant loop and compressor in there—but most Americans dislike them because they don't get the clothes as dry (well, the very newest ones also have a resistive coil system so they can) and also cost about 3-4x as much. So they are still fairly rare, and absent some sort of Energy Star requirement I wouldn't expect them to catch on too soon. If the government tried, the middle third of the country would be all "WHITE JESUS DIED FOR OUR WARM, DRY UNDERWEAR (AND ALSO INCANDESCENT BULBS)" in about 36 hours. And honestly the break-even on the energy savings from one is way longer than the lifetime of a machine in residential use so they don't make much sense. They can go in places without an exhaust vent, though.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:16 PM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't worry too much. Electric clothes dryers, at least the ones popular in the US, haven't changed much. They have a shitload of resistive heating coils and they blow air over them to heat it, then move the hot air through the tumbling clothes to dry them, and exhaust the hot/moist air to the outside. That's it. There's not really any way to make that process more efficient; it's a space heater, basically.
The newer ones add some microprocessors and shittily-made membrane keypad switches, but fundamentally it's the same thing.
You don't get any real efficiency gains until you get to the very latest generation of machines that are basically dehumidifiers—they have a refrigerant loop and compressor in there—but most Americans dislike them because they don't get the clothes as dry (well, the very newest ones also have a resistive coil system so they can) and also cost about 3-4x as much. So they are still fairly rare, and absent some sort of Energy Star requirement I wouldn't expect them to catch on too soon. If the government tried, the middle third of the country would be all "WHITE JESUS DIED FOR OUR WARM, DRY UNDERWEAR (AND ALSO INCANDESCENT BULBS)" in about 36 hours. And honestly the break-even on the energy savings from one is way longer than the lifetime of a machine in residential use so they don't make much sense. They can go in places without an exhaust vent, though.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:16 PM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
My dad just showed me an air purifier, a device I've been trying to get him to buy for a couple of years: "Somebody left it in the apartment hallway. It sat there for weeks so I hauled it home and fixed. Running now!"
So proud of him.
Meanwhile, I recently found out that Samsung no longer makes a replacement for our fridge door gasket, after noticing cracks in said gasket. It's just a piece of rubber, and takes a lot of strain from all the fridge door opening and closing, so it's a very predictable failure point. It makes me sad to know that our nearly ten year old fridge is living on borrowed time, for want of such a simple part that requires minimal skill to replace.
posted by em at 1:28 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
So proud of him.
Meanwhile, I recently found out that Samsung no longer makes a replacement for our fridge door gasket, after noticing cracks in said gasket. It's just a piece of rubber, and takes a lot of strain from all the fridge door opening and closing, so it's a very predictable failure point. It makes me sad to know that our nearly ten year old fridge is living on borrowed time, for want of such a simple part that requires minimal skill to replace.
posted by em at 1:28 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
- I have a Fairphone, and unfortunately it has some reliability problems. Fine for me, as I'm technical, but I've spoken to people who couldn't work around the breaking microphone units etc. Mine reboots regularly on its own, which doesn't bother me much.
- I'm in the UK, and have a dehumidifier that we bought when we bought our current flat. The flat had a damp problem (which fortunately turned out to be merely a condensation problem rather than an integral wet-rot situation), and we ran the thing hard to try and prepare it for renovation. That was five years ago now, and the dehumidifier is still our go-to accelerator for hanging clothes to dry in our bathroom. There must not be any soldered pipes in this, and I can tell you the condensation tray is fully removable. I pour about a litre out of it after a good run.
- I can't tell you if energy/water efficiency comes hand-in-hand with lack of repairable modularity. It seems intuitively likely, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. I am reminded of people in the late 80s whining about fuel-efficient Japanese car models because "they have the hood welded shut!"
One of the sadder things about the demise of Sears is the loss of the ability to look through the schematics and parts lists in the back of the owner’s manuals (of pretty much any Kenmore appliance) and then head down to the parts counter at your local Sears and actually get the one tiny part you need. I always bought Kenmore largely for the relative ease of tearing apart an appliance thanks to those great diagrams. It made me feel like I could actually do a repair, and it saved my butt (and wallet) many times.
One thing, too, Sears got perfectly right in the digital age is transitioning the schematics and parts lists to their website, and integrating quick ordering or querying the stock at your local Sears parts counter.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:01 PM on February 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
One thing, too, Sears got perfectly right in the digital age is transitioning the schematics and parts lists to their website, and integrating quick ordering or querying the stock at your local Sears parts counter.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:01 PM on February 3, 2019 [11 favorites]
I’m unclear on what you mean. How would making products durable and fixable result in everyone travelling back in time?
I'm guessing because integration usually reduces size and weight, if only by omitting connectors, cables, structural bits, and tool paths. More subtle effects might be, you can tailor your components more precisely to the needs at hand, rather than using a more generic component and probably over-specifying it a little.
How much this matters depends on the details. Replaceable batteries seem like a clear win. Discrete electronics vs one big system-on-a-chip, probably not.
For computers in particular, it's more a matter of not moving forward in time. My laptop is an old Thinkpad I got my first year of college mumble mumble years ago. It's a tank. Sometimes the audio jack buzzes a little if I don't jiggle it just right, and I've had to replace the battery, but otherwise it works just as well as it did the day I got it.
The problem is that the rest of the world has moved on. I have to keep upgrading the web browser for the security fixes, which means I had to upgrade the RAM. Luckily, I could do that. I could not add Bluetooth, or USB-C, or a camera and microphone, because those were unknown unknowns when this laptop came out and it doesn't have the expansion slots for that stuff.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 2:26 PM on February 3, 2019
I'm guessing because integration usually reduces size and weight, if only by omitting connectors, cables, structural bits, and tool paths. More subtle effects might be, you can tailor your components more precisely to the needs at hand, rather than using a more generic component and probably over-specifying it a little.
How much this matters depends on the details. Replaceable batteries seem like a clear win. Discrete electronics vs one big system-on-a-chip, probably not.
For computers in particular, it's more a matter of not moving forward in time. My laptop is an old Thinkpad I got my first year of college mumble mumble years ago. It's a tank. Sometimes the audio jack buzzes a little if I don't jiggle it just right, and I've had to replace the battery, but otherwise it works just as well as it did the day I got it.
The problem is that the rest of the world has moved on. I have to keep upgrading the web browser for the security fixes, which means I had to upgrade the RAM. Luckily, I could do that. I could not add Bluetooth, or USB-C, or a camera and microphone, because those were unknown unknowns when this laptop came out and it doesn't have the expansion slots for that stuff.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 2:26 PM on February 3, 2019
I'm fairly certain that as product designs mature, the manufacturers learn how to make the components more cheaply, with less materials, in order to reduce cost. Their goal, as I understand it, is to create the cheapest-to-manufacture-and-assemble product that functions under normal conditions until a little bit past the manufacturer's warranty.
Back in the olden days, they didn't know how much (little) they could get away with, so products were over-engineered, over-specc'd. As they gain data about how those products age and wear, they use this data to inform their next generation of products designs. Thus why older, less efficient products often outlast their more modern counterparts.
posted by some loser at 3:04 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Back in the olden days, they didn't know how much (little) they could get away with, so products were over-engineered, over-specc'd. As they gain data about how those products age and wear, they use this data to inform their next generation of products designs. Thus why older, less efficient products often outlast their more modern counterparts.
posted by some loser at 3:04 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
For example: I own an (antique?) analog multimeter that was made in the USA. It's about 50 years old. It was once dropped (about 30 years ago) from at least 30 ft onto a concrete floor. It still works perfectly, and no repair was needed. Try that with a modern multimeter made in .. well probably anywhere. Unless it's some kind of special military-grade multimeter, I suppose. Milspec (actual Milspec, not "milspec" is a different story and also a different universe WRT price)
posted by some loser at 3:10 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by some loser at 3:10 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, replacing automobiles regularly, and almost completely recycling the old ones has had great benefits. Materials engineering is vastly improved over 40 years ago so parts last much longer. Safety is hugely improved. Efficiency has been improved so much that here in King Co. WA they are discontinuing auto exhaust emissions testing because there are so few fails any longer. This would not be the case if we were still all driving our easily repairable VW beetles.
I've opened the hood on our Leaf exactly once in the years we've owned it, to replace the wiper fluid.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 3:33 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I've opened the hood on our Leaf exactly once in the years we've owned it, to replace the wiper fluid.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 3:33 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
A cell phone with a bit more modularity would be nice.
I would support this--I was a big fan of the Handspring PDAs back in the day, with their Springboard expansion slot and the fact that their styli unscrewed to convert into a little Phillips screwdriver that you could undo the case with--but I have never seen a modular smartphone project that has ever successfully made it to market.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:05 PM on February 3, 2019
I would support this--I was a big fan of the Handspring PDAs back in the day, with their Springboard expansion slot and the fact that their styli unscrewed to convert into a little Phillips screwdriver that you could undo the case with--but I have never seen a modular smartphone project that has ever successfully made it to market.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:05 PM on February 3, 2019
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I like to think it was at least a little bit that there was also a greater commitment to quality and durability. Maybe I'm over-estimating the goodwill and community spirit of humans before me. It also seems to me that capitalism in the U.S. has become more and more a rabid and cancerous force in society and is having decreasingly positive impacts on just about everything.
I vote for dreamer. I've mentioned this several times in the past in sometimes different contexts, but the thing that truly amazes me when I look though old Sears catalogs, Popular Mechanics magazines, etc, is how good modern goods are. Accompanied with how remarkably cheap they cost. Back in the day, when stuff was made with cast iron and last a long time, it was reinforced by the fact that the goods were really expensive and were significant enough an investment that repairability wasn't an afterthought, but an unavoidable fact.
This still survives, but not so much with consumer grade goods. Where integration, ease of manufacture, and cost go hand in hand. And it's not as if many of these devices are not repairable. They're just not repairable by some guy with a set of screwdrivers and and an analog multimeter the size of a cinder block.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:20 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I vote for dreamer. I've mentioned this several times in the past in sometimes different contexts, but the thing that truly amazes me when I look though old Sears catalogs, Popular Mechanics magazines, etc, is how good modern goods are. Accompanied with how remarkably cheap they cost. Back in the day, when stuff was made with cast iron and last a long time, it was reinforced by the fact that the goods were really expensive and were significant enough an investment that repairability wasn't an afterthought, but an unavoidable fact.
This still survives, but not so much with consumer grade goods. Where integration, ease of manufacture, and cost go hand in hand. And it's not as if many of these devices are not repairable. They're just not repairable by some guy with a set of screwdrivers and and an analog multimeter the size of a cinder block.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:20 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Back in the day, when stuff was made with cast iron and last a long time, it was reinforced by the fact that the goods were really expensive and were significant enough an investment that repairability wasn't an afterthought, but an unavoidable fact.
You can still get a surprising variety of manually-operated consumer machinery, and I don't even think they're less affordable than they were back then. What's hard to get is products from the middle era of mass technology; things that are automated but are controlled by macroscopic relays rather than microcircuits. And, yes, those things with macroscopic circuits were easier to repair - but they needed to be repaired much more often. Relays are susceptible to vibration, to moisture, and to weak solder joints, in ways that microcircuits aren't.
And my use of the word "affordable" is doing a lot of work here, because old-timey goods are not necessarily cheap: what I mean is that their cost back then also represented a large proportion of people's incomes. E.g., we think of older refrigerators as cheap because we're looking at the absolute dollar cost to purchase and amortising it over a longer lifespan, but we're not including service calls, running costs, and the fact that a refrigerator back then was a much larger investment. Not to mention the environmental cost of the CFCs, of course. I suspect the worst refrigerators generally available today are still cheaper than the ones they replaced.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:01 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
You can still get a surprising variety of manually-operated consumer machinery, and I don't even think they're less affordable than they were back then. What's hard to get is products from the middle era of mass technology; things that are automated but are controlled by macroscopic relays rather than microcircuits. And, yes, those things with macroscopic circuits were easier to repair - but they needed to be repaired much more often. Relays are susceptible to vibration, to moisture, and to weak solder joints, in ways that microcircuits aren't.
And my use of the word "affordable" is doing a lot of work here, because old-timey goods are not necessarily cheap: what I mean is that their cost back then also represented a large proportion of people's incomes. E.g., we think of older refrigerators as cheap because we're looking at the absolute dollar cost to purchase and amortising it over a longer lifespan, but we're not including service calls, running costs, and the fact that a refrigerator back then was a much larger investment. Not to mention the environmental cost of the CFCs, of course. I suspect the worst refrigerators generally available today are still cheaper than the ones they replaced.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:01 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Well sure, i mean, if you have a product that lasts 20 years but requires 10 repairs, that will necessarily have a higher REPAIR cost than a product that you have to replace every 2 years. The total outlay over 20 years might look a little better for the longer-lived product, depending on a variety of factors. A 20 year old furnace for example, will certainly cost you more than a new one over the long haul. My ancient (like, notable older than I am) multimeter tho, not so much. Plus it's only the size of about one and a half masonry bricks, and much lighter. (I keep it in the garage.. for field use, I have a 25 year old digital unit by Fluke. However I break out the analog meter when I need to test for capacitance, since the Fluke unit doesn't do that.)
posted by some loser at 5:21 PM on February 3, 2019
posted by some loser at 5:21 PM on February 3, 2019
I have a Chrysler (!) gas furnace that is over 70 years old. It's still plugging along, though a bit noisy. Once the thermocouple failed in the wrong way (stuck open) and that was bad. But it was still possible to repair it. I should replace it but I'm sure the replacement would last 20 years at most. (That's probably all I need, though.)
posted by sjswitzer at 5:48 PM on February 3, 2019
posted by sjswitzer at 5:48 PM on February 3, 2019
One of the sadder things about the demise of Sears
Indeed. Last summer, I had to buy a new blade for my nearly 20-year-old Craftsman lawnmower. I was able to order and pick one up at the Sears in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota. When I went to pick it up, there was a notice taped to the inside of the glass door, saying that they were closing permanently in three weeks.
posted by gimonca at 5:55 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
And my use of the word "affordable" is doing a lot of work here, because old-timey goods are not necessarily cheap: what I mean is that their cost back then also represented a large proportion of people's incomes.
I was curious and pulled up a Sears catalog from 1983 earlier in the day. Even in 1983 dollars, when median household income was about $22K, a basic, cheap dryer was only a little cheaper than a basic, cheap dryer nowadays in 2019 dollars (like $275 versus $350 but I don't have it open). A 25 inch tv was $550-800 in 1983 dollars, versus $100 today. A basic refrigerator was $500 then and $500 now.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:16 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I was curious and pulled up a Sears catalog from 1983 earlier in the day. Even in 1983 dollars, when median household income was about $22K, a basic, cheap dryer was only a little cheaper than a basic, cheap dryer nowadays in 2019 dollars (like $275 versus $350 but I don't have it open). A 25 inch tv was $550-800 in 1983 dollars, versus $100 today. A basic refrigerator was $500 then and $500 now.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:16 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Something like a Unisaw from 1947 (when mine was made) was probably about the same amount of money in real dollars as a new one today, though they're made somewhat differently.
I should clarify my dehumidifier story: Mine runs 24/7 in a hostile environment. I would guess it's actually "on" (drying the air) for about 12 hours a day, on average. Hardly at all during a dry cold snap (when its efficiency would be laughable, in any case) and a lot if it's both hot and humid.
Also, mine has a two-gallon water bucket you pull out to empty, but what I'm talking about cleaning is the built-in bit above that bucket which collects the water that drips off the condensers (radiators) and channels it to the little tube that dribbles it into the bucket. Black algae (or mould) of some sort grows in there, and eventually can plug that tube, or partially block it in such a way that the water misses the bucket and instead goes onto the floor.
When I talk about a removable tray, I want every piece of the device which ends up wet (excluding the radiators) to be able to be pulled out with at least some ease and cleaned of goop.
posted by maxwelton at 7:05 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
I should clarify my dehumidifier story: Mine runs 24/7 in a hostile environment. I would guess it's actually "on" (drying the air) for about 12 hours a day, on average. Hardly at all during a dry cold snap (when its efficiency would be laughable, in any case) and a lot if it's both hot and humid.
Also, mine has a two-gallon water bucket you pull out to empty, but what I'm talking about cleaning is the built-in bit above that bucket which collects the water that drips off the condensers (radiators) and channels it to the little tube that dribbles it into the bucket. Black algae (or mould) of some sort grows in there, and eventually can plug that tube, or partially block it in such a way that the water misses the bucket and instead goes onto the floor.
When I talk about a removable tray, I want every piece of the device which ends up wet (excluding the radiators) to be able to be pulled out with at least some ease and cleaned of goop.
posted by maxwelton at 7:05 PM on February 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
A 25 inch tv was $550-800 in 1983 dollars, versus $100 today. A basic refrigerator was $500 then and $500 now.
That was my recollection; thanks for actually doing the research :-)
Things that became proportionally cheaper have often become much cheaper and much better. Things that are proportionally more expensive, like housing, haven't increased to the same extent - but housing is a more fundamental need and takes a high proportion of most people's income. Consequently, rent may have "only" gone up by 30-50% (in Australia) in real terms, but that rise has really hurt many people.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:22 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
That was my recollection; thanks for actually doing the research :-)
Things that became proportionally cheaper have often become much cheaper and much better. Things that are proportionally more expensive, like housing, haven't increased to the same extent - but housing is a more fundamental need and takes a high proportion of most people's income. Consequently, rent may have "only" gone up by 30-50% (in Australia) in real terms, but that rise has really hurt many people.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:22 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
My parents, who just celebrated their 50th anniversary, still use the Sunbeam toaster that they got for a wedding present daily. My husband and I have been through at least five toasters since we started living together 24 years ago. Cruddy Target ones or fancy Williams-Sonoma ones, they don't make 'em like they used to.
posted by Daily Alice at 7:34 PM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by Daily Alice at 7:34 PM on February 3, 2019 [4 favorites]
All filters for every product that requires a filter to function should be of standardized sizes and composition. None of this "welp guess you bought that last year and now there's no way to replace the filter on the thing" crap that is remarkably common. Also I should be able to get them in the same local stores I bought the product in the first place at a sane price.
The expenditures required to keep my humidifier from giving me legionnaire's disease or something are ridiculous.
posted by asperity at 8:35 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
The expenditures required to keep my humidifier from giving me legionnaire's disease or something are ridiculous.
posted by asperity at 8:35 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
My Maytag washer is from possibly as early as 1958, said the parts warehouse guys when I needed a new hose. They had the replacement hose in stock. It still works.
My mom is barely from 1958.
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 9:07 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
My mom is barely from 1958.
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 9:07 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
All filters for every product that requires a filter to function should be of standardized sizes and composition.
This is a true statement, and should apply to cars as well, of course. Filters are so tiny these days that claiming you have a space issue and have to design your own filter is ridiculous.
Furnaces, too. As far as I can tell, the guy doing the duct work just gets to arbitrarily decide on a size, and then every time you're at costco, with their three sizes which cost 1/5th what your slightly different size costs, you die a little inside.
posted by maxwelton at 11:23 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
This is a true statement, and should apply to cars as well, of course. Filters are so tiny these days that claiming you have a space issue and have to design your own filter is ridiculous.
Furnaces, too. As far as I can tell, the guy doing the duct work just gets to arbitrarily decide on a size, and then every time you're at costco, with their three sizes which cost 1/5th what your slightly different size costs, you die a little inside.
posted by maxwelton at 11:23 PM on February 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
Cruddy Target ones or fancy Williams-Sonoma ones, they don't make 'em like they used to.
I have a five dualit toaster that does seem to be as good as my parents twenty year old dualit toaster. They do cost dumb money for a toaster though.
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:10 AM on February 4, 2019
I have a five dualit toaster that does seem to be as good as my parents twenty year old dualit toaster. They do cost dumb money for a toaster though.
posted by stillnocturnal at 1:10 AM on February 4, 2019
I've been involved in the electronic hardware design of several dozen consumer products, and I can tell you this concept of "planned obsolescence" is a myth. Neither my company nor my clients have ever purposely designed things to fail, to have limited life spans, or to be less repairable.
The driving forces are low COGS (cost of goods sold), quick time to market, and designing for high-yield manufacturability.
You can always make a better and more reliable product but very few people will buy it over a lower cost alternative.
posted by rocket88 at 7:56 AM on February 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
The driving forces are low COGS (cost of goods sold), quick time to market, and designing for high-yield manufacturability.
You can always make a better and more reliable product but very few people will buy it over a lower cost alternative.
posted by rocket88 at 7:56 AM on February 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
Ikea currently has a system called 365+ where every damn bowl has plastic and glass versions and three different types of compatible lids.
but will it still be compatible with whatever's on the shelves in three years? That's what needs to be ensured.
Compatible??? No fucking way! Two years ago I bought a bunch of glass tupperware containers with interchangable lids at Ikea. They were great and we used them a lot, so last year I went back and bought some more. But THE NEW LIDS DON'T FIT THE OLD CONTAINERS (and vice versa), and there is only a centimeter difference. It's not like they moved from rectangles to squares, no!! The old ones were 16 x 22 and the new ones are 15 x 21. Every single time I pull out a lid it's the wrong one. And as an added bonus, they don't stack well.
They're great tuppers, but they make me angry every time I look at them.
posted by lollymccatburglar at 8:32 AM on February 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
but will it still be compatible with whatever's on the shelves in three years? That's what needs to be ensured.
Compatible??? No fucking way! Two years ago I bought a bunch of glass tupperware containers with interchangable lids at Ikea. They were great and we used them a lot, so last year I went back and bought some more. But THE NEW LIDS DON'T FIT THE OLD CONTAINERS (and vice versa), and there is only a centimeter difference. It's not like they moved from rectangles to squares, no!! The old ones were 16 x 22 and the new ones are 15 x 21. Every single time I pull out a lid it's the wrong one. And as an added bonus, they don't stack well.
They're great tuppers, but they make me angry every time I look at them.
posted by lollymccatburglar at 8:32 AM on February 4, 2019 [3 favorites]
The driving forces are low COGS (cost of goods sold), quick time to market, and designing for high-yield manufacturability.
You can always make a better and more reliable product but very few people will buy it over a lower cost alternative.
Whether the cause is intentional design decisions or unintentional design decisions, either way the result and the solution are the same.
It's a market failure, and the way to fix that is regulation. Specifically, regulation to prevent firms from "racing to the bottom" in pursuit of low prices, especially when there are huge externalities involved. Sure, you can make cheap shit, and people will buy that cheap shit, but one of the reasons that shit is so cheap is because the disposal cost isn't remotely captured in the purchase price.
The $100 Chinese TV that's going to die in a few years (or be useless because its "smart" features will stop working) wouldn't be $100 if the return logistics cost of taking it back to a disassembly factory, taking it apart, stripping out all the heavy metals, and paying for the landfill costs of whatever's left, was included in the original purchase price.
I'm not completely against markets as a price-setting mechanism, so I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's wise to set a fixed or even a minimum price for particular goods—it is possible that someone will figure out how to make an equally-durable good at the same price as a crappy one—but I'd settle for capturing all the externalities of disposal and remanufacturing back into raw materials (or the infinite-horizon value of landfilling whatever can't be remanufactured, which should be huge enough to discourage building things that way), plus labor-cost and environmental protection equalization tariffs sufficient to prevent firms from just making stuff in places where labor is cheap or regulations are nonexistent. Right there, most of the cheap crap would be uneconomical and what you'd be left with would be longer-lasting and more repairable. And you'd also pull the manufacturing jobs and their associated knowledge of the internals of stuff back closer to the point of consumption, so not only would you have the economic incentive to repair (only half the problem), but you'd also have people who were capable of doing it.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:46 AM on February 4, 2019 [12 favorites]
You can always make a better and more reliable product but very few people will buy it over a lower cost alternative.
Whether the cause is intentional design decisions or unintentional design decisions, either way the result and the solution are the same.
It's a market failure, and the way to fix that is regulation. Specifically, regulation to prevent firms from "racing to the bottom" in pursuit of low prices, especially when there are huge externalities involved. Sure, you can make cheap shit, and people will buy that cheap shit, but one of the reasons that shit is so cheap is because the disposal cost isn't remotely captured in the purchase price.
The $100 Chinese TV that's going to die in a few years (or be useless because its "smart" features will stop working) wouldn't be $100 if the return logistics cost of taking it back to a disassembly factory, taking it apart, stripping out all the heavy metals, and paying for the landfill costs of whatever's left, was included in the original purchase price.
I'm not completely against markets as a price-setting mechanism, so I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's wise to set a fixed or even a minimum price for particular goods—it is possible that someone will figure out how to make an equally-durable good at the same price as a crappy one—but I'd settle for capturing all the externalities of disposal and remanufacturing back into raw materials (or the infinite-horizon value of landfilling whatever can't be remanufactured, which should be huge enough to discourage building things that way), plus labor-cost and environmental protection equalization tariffs sufficient to prevent firms from just making stuff in places where labor is cheap or regulations are nonexistent. Right there, most of the cheap crap would be uneconomical and what you'd be left with would be longer-lasting and more repairable. And you'd also pull the manufacturing jobs and their associated knowledge of the internals of stuff back closer to the point of consumption, so not only would you have the economic incentive to repair (only half the problem), but you'd also have people who were capable of doing it.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:46 AM on February 4, 2019 [12 favorites]
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posted by philip-random at 8:21 AM on February 3, 2019 [25 favorites]