"a good night’s sleep a distant dream"
March 1, 2019 1:19 PM Subscribe
New parents face up to six years of sleep deprivation, study says [The Guardian]
"Deeper analysis of data showed the first three months after the birth of a first child were particularly gruelling: women lost just over an hour of sleep compared with before they became pregnant.
While similar trends were seen for fathers, the effects were less pronounced. Even at three months after their first child’s birth, fathers only lost 13 minutes of sleep."
NHS Behind the Headlines: First-time mothers 'lose an hour's sleep a night' after childbirth
Abstract of the article "Long-term effects of pregnancy and childbirth on sleep satisfaction and duration of first-time and experienced mothers and fathers"
"Deeper analysis of data showed the first three months after the birth of a first child were particularly gruelling: women lost just over an hour of sleep compared with before they became pregnant.
While similar trends were seen for fathers, the effects were less pronounced. Even at three months after their first child’s birth, fathers only lost 13 minutes of sleep."
NHS Behind the Headlines: First-time mothers 'lose an hour's sleep a night' after childbirth
Abstract of the article "Long-term effects of pregnancy and childbirth on sleep satisfaction and duration of first-time and experienced mothers and fathers"
New parents face up to six years of sleep deprivation
*glances at the almost-6-year-old's room*
No shit, Sherlock.
posted by Quasirandom at 1:44 PM on March 1, 2019 [19 favorites]
My daughter turned 3 recently. I've been a stay-at-home dad for her since she was ~4 months old. Because of my wife's work, I've always took primary responsibility of attending to the kiddo in the middle of the night. Even then, my wife would wake up to fully awake the moment the baby made a peep. Luckily, after about a month she was always able to quickly fall back asleep.
Speaking of luck, since our kid was about 11 months old, she sleeps through the night from about 10pm to 8am. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to wake up to attend to her. She also naps about 2 hours in the early afternoon. She's napping right now as I procrastinate from cleaning the kitchen. Sometimes she will wake up at 2am, go to her bookshelf, pick up a book and read it in bed for 30 minutes before falling asleep on her own.
If and when we decide to have kid #2, we will need to reckon with the fact that we NEVER be so lucky again.
posted by Groundhog Week at 1:44 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
Speaking of luck, since our kid was about 11 months old, she sleeps through the night from about 10pm to 8am. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to wake up to attend to her. She also naps about 2 hours in the early afternoon. She's napping right now as I procrastinate from cleaning the kitchen. Sometimes she will wake up at 2am, go to her bookshelf, pick up a book and read it in bed for 30 minutes before falling asleep on her own.
If and when we decide to have kid #2, we will need to reckon with the fact that we NEVER be so lucky again.
posted by Groundhog Week at 1:44 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
The expert they quoted was really helpful. “Accept help from family and friends when it’s offered” and “bear in mind it won’t last for ever.” Have a great local support network ready to provide lots of child care and stop complaining, it’s not that bad!
posted by Ralston McTodd at 1:53 PM on March 1, 2019 [24 favorites]
posted by Ralston McTodd at 1:53 PM on March 1, 2019 [24 favorites]
"up to"
posted by feckless at 2:10 PM on March 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by feckless at 2:10 PM on March 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
This maps to my experience - youngest is now 6, and things are settling down a bit in the "up at 3AM on a Tuesday" department.
posted by ryanshepard at 2:13 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by ryanshepard at 2:13 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
I genuinely don't remember most of 2010 bc of what long-term sleep deficits do to memory.
I do remember walking back and forth in the hallway at 3am in the dark for hours, kid #2 in a front carrier, holding an ipad in front of me watching movies until he settled down.
posted by feckless at 2:14 PM on March 1, 2019 [10 favorites]
I do remember walking back and forth in the hallway at 3am in the dark for hours, kid #2 in a front carrier, holding an ipad in front of me watching movies until he settled down.
posted by feckless at 2:14 PM on March 1, 2019 [10 favorites]
We were very lucky that once she started sleeping through the night as an infant, our daughter was a sound sleeper who rarely woke us up in the middle of the night, but those first six months or so were pretty rough. The marriage of one of my high school friends ended due to a baby who wouldn't sleep (and a husband who wouldn't help).
posted by briank at 2:23 PM on March 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by briank at 2:23 PM on March 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
My daughter slept through the night when she was 12 weeks old.. once. She has tried it out a few times since but it’s never really stuck.* She’s now four and still mostly doesn’t sleep through, although she doesn’t require much input from us any more so our own sleep is generally fine now.
That first year or two was rough, though. Really rough. Lack of sleep is so brutal.
When she was around 2-ish we went on holiday up to the Shetland islands, and she was so excited the first night there that she would not sleep and would not quieten down and eventually I stuck her in the carrier and went out to walk so we wouldn’t disturb the other hotel guests. 11pm, midnight, 1am. Still no sleep. Walked through the town up and down and up and down, from the big clouds of sea-fog on the cliffs to the huge gulls squawking around the docks, still no sleep. Eventually I realised the sun was coming up (far north in summer so maybe 2am or something?) and I was too tired to walk any more, so I sat down on the grass with her and looked out over the sea and thought “this is definitely getting better in SOME ways, at least I feel okay and I don’t hallucinate from sleep deprivation any more.”
And then the fog on the sea parted and a GIANT VIKING LONGSHIP appeared from nowhere.
So I walked back to the hotel, scrapped all our sightseeing plans for the next day, handed the toddler (now sleeping because of course) over to her dad and went to bed for a long long time.
(I found out later it was a replica boat that was being temporarily anchored there and I wasn’t in fact losing my mind, but it is still one of the weirdest parenting experiences I’ve ever had.)
* whatever book, technique, approach, philosophy or overpriced self-certified professional sleep consultant you might feel tempted to recommend here - yes we know about it, no it didn’t work.
posted by Catseye at 2:56 PM on March 1, 2019 [81 favorites]
That first year or two was rough, though. Really rough. Lack of sleep is so brutal.
When she was around 2-ish we went on holiday up to the Shetland islands, and she was so excited the first night there that she would not sleep and would not quieten down and eventually I stuck her in the carrier and went out to walk so we wouldn’t disturb the other hotel guests. 11pm, midnight, 1am. Still no sleep. Walked through the town up and down and up and down, from the big clouds of sea-fog on the cliffs to the huge gulls squawking around the docks, still no sleep. Eventually I realised the sun was coming up (far north in summer so maybe 2am or something?) and I was too tired to walk any more, so I sat down on the grass with her and looked out over the sea and thought “this is definitely getting better in SOME ways, at least I feel okay and I don’t hallucinate from sleep deprivation any more.”
And then the fog on the sea parted and a GIANT VIKING LONGSHIP appeared from nowhere.
So I walked back to the hotel, scrapped all our sightseeing plans for the next day, handed the toddler (now sleeping because of course) over to her dad and went to bed for a long long time.
(I found out later it was a replica boat that was being temporarily anchored there and I wasn’t in fact losing my mind, but it is still one of the weirdest parenting experiences I’ve ever had.)
* whatever book, technique, approach, philosophy or overpriced self-certified professional sleep consultant you might feel tempted to recommend here - yes we know about it, no it didn’t work.
posted by Catseye at 2:56 PM on March 1, 2019 [81 favorites]
My oldest son, now 12 and wearing shoes that fit me, used to want to get up at 5am every day until he was 2 or so. I used to do the weekly shop at a local 24-hour supermarket on one of the days when it was my turn to get up. The staff at the supermarket always cooed over him, and he loved our trips. But one morning I hadn't set an alarm and went in at 6:30am to a toddler who just glared accusingly at me, and gave me the silent treatment all the way around the shop. I've never been made to feel quite so guilty by another human being.
posted by pipeski at 3:13 PM on March 1, 2019 [13 favorites]
posted by pipeski at 3:13 PM on March 1, 2019 [13 favorites]
this feels right. *yawns*
posted by nikaspark at 3:23 PM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by nikaspark at 3:23 PM on March 1, 2019 [2 favorites]
An hour's sleep a night? You've got to be kidding me. Just an HOUR?!?
posted by erst at 3:42 PM on March 1, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by erst at 3:42 PM on March 1, 2019 [21 favorites]
Typechip is five and I finally feel like sleep is starting to be a thing I maybe get enough of sometimes.
on Saturdays. When my husband gets up early with Typechip and they watch cartoons on the couch and let me sleep in.
(because no way in all the hells I am telling my son to stop getting in bed with us at 6 and cuddling, he's the cuddliest fluffiest pointiest sharpest best kid)
posted by FritoKAL at 3:43 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
on Saturdays. When my husband gets up early with Typechip and they watch cartoons on the couch and let me sleep in.
(because no way in all the hells I am telling my son to stop getting in bed with us at 6 and cuddling, he's the cuddliest fluffiest pointiest sharpest best kid)
posted by FritoKAL at 3:43 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
Even at three months after their first child’s birth, fathers only lost 13 minutes of sleep.
This father can only say HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
posted by zardoz at 3:57 PM on March 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
This father can only say HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
posted by zardoz at 3:57 PM on March 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
Oh god, I know I'm in the throes of young parenthood because my reaction to this was, "What? I'm in the first six years of being a parent, and I get plenty of sleep! Just last night I was in bed by 11:30 and didn't have to wake up till 6...... oh. OK, I get it."
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 4:08 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 4:08 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
Only an hour? Really? It feels like a whole lot more loss than that.
My oldest is 4 and my youngest is 1. Oldest didn’t reliably sleep through the night until she was nighttime potty trained at 3.5. It’s gonna be a long few more years.
posted by olinerd at 5:08 PM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
My oldest is 4 and my youngest is 1. Oldest didn’t reliably sleep through the night until she was nighttime potty trained at 3.5. It’s gonna be a long few more years.
posted by olinerd at 5:08 PM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm here to tell all of you in the sleepless trenches that it gets better! My firstborn didn't sleep much until he was about 2, the second one stayed difficult until age 3, and then for a while there were the occasional nights of interrupted sleep because of sick kids or bad dreams or whatever. It just kind of...fizzled out? after a while. And then they were in elementary school and only woke us up if they were pukey, and then they were in high school and didn't wake us up at all on purpose. Now they're both in college and I'm back to sleeping like I did before they were born. All night, without fail, no interruptions. And now, looking back, it really feels like it was forever ago. Time heals and all that.
But yeah, we stopped at two children because I recognized that I was not a safe person to be around when I was regularly sleep deprived. Like, I was a danger to others. I'm super grateful that I have a partner who was in it 50/50 and had the occasional help from family.
Here's where I offer to help out any local MeFites who don't have reliable respite care. If you have an adorable baby (and they all are) and need someone to come and snuggle said baby while you get a shower or take a several hour nap, I promise I'm really good at baby whispering and I don't have grandkids yet and I regularly jones for that baby smell. And baby laughs.
posted by cooker girl at 5:34 PM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
But yeah, we stopped at two children because I recognized that I was not a safe person to be around when I was regularly sleep deprived. Like, I was a danger to others. I'm super grateful that I have a partner who was in it 50/50 and had the occasional help from family.
Here's where I offer to help out any local MeFites who don't have reliable respite care. If you have an adorable baby (and they all are) and need someone to come and snuggle said baby while you get a shower or take a several hour nap, I promise I'm really good at baby whispering and I don't have grandkids yet and I regularly jones for that baby smell. And baby laughs.
posted by cooker girl at 5:34 PM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
I wonder if it's an hour amortized across all of early childhood?
Because yeah, there were a few months at the beginning where I was getting four hours of sleep or less per night, and multiple wakeups, which is just fucking unacceptable. However, once we sleep trained (5-ish months?), we went down to one wakeup a night, then a wakeup several nights a week, then a wakeup every so often, and now for the most part, at 16 months sleeping through the night. (And I know there's at least one major sleep regression/transition to come before we hit preschool.) Now my guess is that I get an hour or two less than a childfree adult would get, especially since weekends don't involve sleeping in anymore.
So maybe if you math it up so that you average out the early no-sleep days and the later mostly-sleep-but-less-than-you'd-like days, you get one hour?
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 5:47 PM on March 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Because yeah, there were a few months at the beginning where I was getting four hours of sleep or less per night, and multiple wakeups, which is just fucking unacceptable. However, once we sleep trained (5-ish months?), we went down to one wakeup a night, then a wakeup several nights a week, then a wakeup every so often, and now for the most part, at 16 months sleeping through the night. (And I know there's at least one major sleep regression/transition to come before we hit preschool.) Now my guess is that I get an hour or two less than a childfree adult would get, especially since weekends don't involve sleeping in anymore.
So maybe if you math it up so that you average out the early no-sleep days and the later mostly-sleep-but-less-than-you'd-like days, you get one hour?
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 5:47 PM on March 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
Weaning also super helped, even though it's socially dangerous to draw a connection between breastfeeding and maternal sleep deprivation.
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 5:49 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 5:49 PM on March 1, 2019 [5 favorites]
Society continues to produce arguements that parenthood is a terrible decision, which really feels like it says a lot more about how society is designed rather than parenthood itself.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:14 PM on March 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 6:14 PM on March 1, 2019 [8 favorites]
Published in the journal Sleep, the study looked at data collected from adults in Germany who were surveyed in face-to-face interviews carried out once a year between 2008-15.
So, they didn't follow through into the time when the kiddos are teenagers... dating, starting to drive, hanging out with friends who have access to vehicles, attending school-related activities, getting part-time jobs that last late into the night... nope, not sleeping easily through all that....
That faint buzz in the back of my mind finally went away once the girls either moved into an apartment or left for college. Also -- taking long baths without interruptions, answering the door for my own guests, no more kiddie carpools. Nice not to be someone else's social activity director.
Gosh, it gets quiet around here sometimes.
posted by TrishaU at 6:41 PM on March 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
So, they didn't follow through into the time when the kiddos are teenagers... dating, starting to drive, hanging out with friends who have access to vehicles, attending school-related activities, getting part-time jobs that last late into the night... nope, not sleeping easily through all that....
That faint buzz in the back of my mind finally went away once the girls either moved into an apartment or left for college. Also -- taking long baths without interruptions, answering the door for my own guests, no more kiddie carpools. Nice not to be someone else's social activity director.
Gosh, it gets quiet around here sometimes.
posted by TrishaU at 6:41 PM on March 1, 2019 [3 favorites]
This news also ran in one of the papers I read online and it was followed by an avalanche of comments* — with no exaggeration, hundreds and hundreds — of people and/or bots saying “no shit sherlock lol 😂 😂 😂 “ and “this is rediculoius that so called scientist’s have to do a Study to find this out” and “everybody with kids knows this already” and such, as well as a besieged minority of grownups** pointing out that if you ever want to see this addressed or remedied in some fashion, the fact has to be documented, and for that someone needs to study it and write it down. I think it is also pretty widely known that, for example, the twice-a-year time change*** causes a lot of difficulties and accidents (vehicular and otherwise), but until someone measures the impact this causes every six months and convinces legislators**** of the value of abolishing Daylight Saving Time, this will continue because, well, “we’ve always done it that way.”
* I read the comments so you don’t have to.
** Not me. I was silent because I am entirely out of evens to cannot these days.
*** For most of us. Saskatchewan and Arizona mefites, you may relax.
**** Except those corrupt caucus members in the pocket of Big Snooze Button.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:54 PM on March 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
* I read the comments so you don’t have to.
** Not me. I was silent because I am entirely out of evens to cannot these days.
*** For most of us. Saskatchewan and Arizona mefites, you may relax.
**** Except those corrupt caucus members in the pocket of Big Snooze Button.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:54 PM on March 1, 2019 [4 favorites]
Weaning also super helped, even though it's socially dangerous to draw a connection between breastfeeding and maternal sleep deprivation.
Word. My youngest didn’t sleep through the night till I weaned and I waited to wean because I wanted a long, successful breastfeeding experience after my first (breastfeeding was difficult and I ended up very sick because of those difficulties). But I didn’t realize until after we weaned just how messed up I was from sleep deprivation.
posted by devinemissk at 7:05 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Word. My youngest didn’t sleep through the night till I weaned and I waited to wean because I wanted a long, successful breastfeeding experience after my first (breastfeeding was difficult and I ended up very sick because of those difficulties). But I didn’t realize until after we weaned just how messed up I was from sleep deprivation.
posted by devinemissk at 7:05 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
Kid was a naturally crappy sleeper, and then he started teething early, and then he got multiple bouts of sinus infections and tonsillitis so basically he was probably six before reliable sleep was a thing.
I honestly remember little of those first five years. We just...held on and tried not to die from undersleep. I often wished we were poly, or lived in a commune, or otherwise had at least one or two other people around to spell us. We needed a village, we didn't have one.
posted by emjaybee at 8:17 PM on March 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
I honestly remember little of those first five years. We just...held on and tried not to die from undersleep. I often wished we were poly, or lived in a commune, or otherwise had at least one or two other people around to spell us. We needed a village, we didn't have one.
posted by emjaybee at 8:17 PM on March 1, 2019 [7 favorites]
Writing this past midnight as our normally good sleeping 18 month old is just not able to sleep for some reason. He's currently in the bed downstairs with his papa and every time I think he's slept off he starts crying again. I have no idea what's going on. Motrin has been administered.
posted by peacheater at 9:41 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by peacheater at 9:41 PM on March 1, 2019 [1 favorite]
It wasn't so bad with my first, when I was 31, or with my second, when I was 33, even though my second had "true colic" and screamed his fuckin' head off every day from 11 p.m. until 3 a.m. no matter what (closed captioning FTW). But my third, when I was 38? HOLY. FUCKING. SHIT. She was a mellow child and a great sleeper and even so having an infant at 38 just about killed me, I just did not have the all-nighters and sleep deprivation in me anymore.
My oldest is 9 and my youngest is 2 1/2 and on a good night I get 5 1/2 hours of sleep. Frequently I get less. My husband does not understand why I love naps SO DAMNED MUCH or why I get so fuckin' grumpy on weekends when my kids are making noise at 6 a.m. Like honestly my dream vacation would be going somewhere quiet and JUST SLEEPING A LOT.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:17 PM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
My oldest is 9 and my youngest is 2 1/2 and on a good night I get 5 1/2 hours of sleep. Frequently I get less. My husband does not understand why I love naps SO DAMNED MUCH or why I get so fuckin' grumpy on weekends when my kids are making noise at 6 a.m. Like honestly my dream vacation would be going somewhere quiet and JUST SLEEPING A LOT.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:17 PM on March 1, 2019 [6 favorites]
Did some jagged crying while breasting my 17 month old for the second session of the night this week. It was the wee small hours of the morning in a week with a lot of interrupted sleep. I do the weeks on my own while my husband travels. I have learned that I am a completely different person at night and that you MUST hold on until the light of morning. Lack of sleep is sharp desperation when you’re in the midst of losing it and then a much duller sadness once it’s lost.
posted by CMcG at 3:57 AM on March 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by CMcG at 3:57 AM on March 2, 2019 [8 favorites]
If our second child had come first, we wouldn’t have had any more children. No more than two unbroken nights in a row until he was five. I think I’m still feeling the effects, and he’s 30 this year...
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 5:03 AM on March 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 5:03 AM on March 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
Regarding
They can't. Nobody should. I'm not sure it's really productive to point out that having a support network is hard and invaluable, but even with one you need to let go of the myth you're supposed to go it alone.
I think the quote is trying to normalize not only the value of, but the absolute need for a support network, not shame people who don't have one.
posted by abulafa at 5:49 AM on March 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
The expert they quoted was really helpful. “Accept help from family and friends when it’s offered” and “bear in mind it won’t last for ever.”Even folks with minimal support networks often have trouble accepting (or asking for) help thanks to the impression it will somehow prove they're not supposed to be a parent or can't hack it alone.
They can't. Nobody should. I'm not sure it's really productive to point out that having a support network is hard and invaluable, but even with one you need to let go of the myth you're supposed to go it alone.
I think the quote is trying to normalize not only the value of, but the absolute need for a support network, not shame people who don't have one.
posted by abulafa at 5:49 AM on March 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
This us. For a brief, magical period around last Christmas, both our boys slept through the night in their own beds. Before that, it seems like they somehow made a pact to trade off nights, either one of them crawling in bed with us between 11 PM and 4 AM, and if we were unlucky, we got both, which meant no one slept well in our queen bed.
Then ... they stopped. My wife and I slept so well.
Come January, our four year old has decided that he has nightmares, or gets lonely, so every night he joins us. He's a warm little cuddle-guy, so that can be nice, but he's also made of so many elbows and knees, and he likes playing with hair for soothing himself back to sleep. And Mom's hair is best.
The worst part is that he doesn't nap much any more. Because sleep begets sleep, I'm sure he'd sleep better if he napped. So we all try to get to bed early, because we'll wake up early, even on the weekends. Staying up late does not mean they sleep later, at least by much. And usually they're grumpy much of the next day, too.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 AM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
Then ... they stopped. My wife and I slept so well.
Come January, our four year old has decided that he has nightmares, or gets lonely, so every night he joins us. He's a warm little cuddle-guy, so that can be nice, but he's also made of so many elbows and knees, and he likes playing with hair for soothing himself back to sleep. And Mom's hair is best.
The worst part is that he doesn't nap much any more. Because sleep begets sleep, I'm sure he'd sleep better if he napped. So we all try to get to bed early, because we'll wake up early, even on the weekends. Staying up late does not mean they sleep later, at least by much. And usually they're grumpy much of the next day, too.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 AM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have an explanation for how it could be just an hour? That doesn’t seem to match the experiences here.
posted by CMcG at 8:47 AM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by CMcG at 8:47 AM on March 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
Does anyone have an explanation for how it could be just an hour?
Sleepers Georg went into a ten year coma immediately after the birth of his firstborn.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:45 AM on March 2, 2019 [9 favorites]
Sleepers Georg went into a ten year coma immediately after the birth of his firstborn.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:45 AM on March 2, 2019 [9 favorites]
QFT
Society continues to produce arguements that parenthood is a terrible decision, which really feels like it says a lot more about how society is designed rather than parenthood itself.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:14 PM on March 1
What would make this sleep deprivation better, gender parity in care would bring the 13min and 60 minutes closer 36.5min; new parents being excempt from employment and living on a generous social stipend, a regular schedule of 24hr available babycare specialists (not just grandmas) nearby to afford parents offhours.
Sounds too expensive, we might have to forgo something essential to our lives, like another missile or submarine!
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 12:58 PM on March 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
Society continues to produce arguements that parenthood is a terrible decision, which really feels like it says a lot more about how society is designed rather than parenthood itself.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:14 PM on March 1
What would make this sleep deprivation better, gender parity in care would bring the 13min and 60 minutes closer 36.5min; new parents being excempt from employment and living on a generous social stipend, a regular schedule of 24hr available babycare specialists (not just grandmas) nearby to afford parents offhours.
Sounds too expensive, we might have to forgo something essential to our lives, like another missile or submarine!
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 12:58 PM on March 2, 2019 [4 favorites]
My children have this wicked habit of changing things up and one or the other of them decides to go on a sleep strike just when I've grown accustomed to getting a full night's rest.
posted by Sequined Ballet Flats at 3:03 PM on March 2, 2019
posted by Sequined Ballet Flats at 3:03 PM on March 2, 2019
I know it is controversial but bed-sharing/co-sleeping evened out that uneven sleep deprivation between myself and my partner during those years. We also tended to treat the care of the bébé a bit like shift work so it worked out a bit easier and evenly for us. For the parents struggling, it does get better. The middle of the night vomitting after your kid picks up something from another kid however... I could live without (especially after we had channa masala).
posted by Ashwagandha at 3:04 PM on March 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Ashwagandha at 3:04 PM on March 2, 2019 [1 favorite]
Deeper analysis of data showed the first three months after the birth of a first child were particularly gruelling: women lost just over an hour of sleep compared with before they became pregnant.
I call bullshit. I regularly lose an hour of sleep because the book I'm reading is too good and I go to sleep at 1 am instead of midnight. My experience with a newborn, and that of literally every new mother I've ever known, is more like "sleep from 10pm-1am, awake until 3am, sleep until 5am, congratulations, now you're up for the day."
I would love to see a tangential study which explains why a mere one hour less of sleep per night produces such dire, far-ranging effects (I'm certainly not the only one who had hallucinations).
posted by lollymccatburglar at 12:15 AM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I call bullshit. I regularly lose an hour of sleep because the book I'm reading is too good and I go to sleep at 1 am instead of midnight. My experience with a newborn, and that of literally every new mother I've ever known, is more like "sleep from 10pm-1am, awake until 3am, sleep until 5am, congratulations, now you're up for the day."
I would love to see a tangential study which explains why a mere one hour less of sleep per night produces such dire, far-ranging effects (I'm certainly not the only one who had hallucinations).
posted by lollymccatburglar at 12:15 AM on March 3, 2019 [3 favorites]
I would love to see a tangential study which explains why a mere one hour less of sleep per night produces such dire, far-ranging effects (I'm certainly not the only one who had hallucinations).That’s one thing I find severely lacking in these discussions: quality of sleep. It’s not as fungible as these stats implies and many people don’t just drop into deep sleep quickly so those interruptions are really brutal. It’d be really interesting to see a study using quality monitoring to measure the impact – I’d expect it would show a pretty big range based on where people fall on the light/deep sleeper spectrum.
posted by adamsc at 6:03 AM on March 3, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ashwagandha, it's interesting that you bring up cosleeping as a fix, because I feel like the choice to not in any way entertain cosleeping, no matter what (which was made independent of sleep issues and also independent of any Mommy Wars baggage, just what worked for us), helped make baby sleep issues much clearer and easier to solve. It's also my perception that people I know whose kids didn't sleep through the night by the end of the first year or so tended to either be cosleeping families or families that didn't believe in sleep training.
Of course, I'll also say that my kid sleeps OK as a baseline, and I'm pretty sure it's nothing we did. And it would have been the same whether we coslept or not, did ferber right at 5 months or not, etc. We just got lucky. Aaaaaand now that I've said this, the Milkbaby, the Paperbaby will probably never sleep through the night again. I should go knock on some wood.
Nthing treating childcare as a task to be shared equally, though. We are both a little bit sleep deprived, rather than one of us being nonfunctional and the other being perfectly well-rested and not even seeing a concern.
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 9:44 AM on March 4, 2019
Of course, I'll also say that my kid sleeps OK as a baseline, and I'm pretty sure it's nothing we did. And it would have been the same whether we coslept or not, did ferber right at 5 months or not, etc. We just got lucky. Aaaaaand now that I've said this, the Milkbaby, the Paperbaby will probably never sleep through the night again. I should go knock on some wood.
Nthing treating childcare as a task to be shared equally, though. We are both a little bit sleep deprived, rather than one of us being nonfunctional and the other being perfectly well-rested and not even seeing a concern.
posted by the milkman, the paper boy at 9:44 AM on March 4, 2019
My husband and I were both very firm on the "we do not do co-sleeping." My sister in law was full on co-sleeping and AP with both her kids. We both have shitty sleepers twice over. Some things are just in the genetics. (My husband and his family all tend to be not-great sleepers anyway, as far as I can tell. Not me, though. Sleeping is my super power.)
With our first, my husband was in the Navy and was away for months at a time so I literally just survived. I hated being a SAHP but it's a good thing I was because I was basically nonfunctional for over a year. I never managed to "sleep while the baby sleeps" because there was too much shit to do when you're the only adult in a high-maintenance house thousands of miles from any family or close friends. Definitely spent more than a few nights crying in frustration and exhaustion. And around 8 months when she had some sleep regression and teeth going on and I was up for 45 mins every two hours one night and kept going back to bed crying and dreading the next time I'd hear her through the monitor I thought to myself "You know what, fuck this, if I weaned her onto formula, she'd feel more full *and* my husband could help when he's home and I wouldn't feel this terrible" but then I pressured myself into breastfeeding for another month, because you're a bad parent if you don't breastfeed, right?
With our second, both of us being home has helped a lot, but also instead of a random old wooden chair as the nursing chair in the baby's room we bought a not fancy, but very functional and comfortable recliner, so when my son would have his all-night feeding sessions (or now that he's a year old, his all-night "I MUST BE CUDDLED IN ORDER TO SLEEP" sessions) whoever was up with him could just lay back and snooze. It's not the best sleep, but it's way better than nothing. And yes, SIDS risk, but there's plenty of risk in sitting upright in a regular chair and occasionally bolting awake finding yourself having nearly dropped the baby because your body just couldn't take it any more and literally passed out from exhaustion during a marathon feed. That definitely happened more than once. Recliner, y'all. Lay-z-boy that shit.
We weaned him onto formula earlier than his sister due to food allergies to stuff I ate and failure to gain weight (he's done MUCH better on formula) which helped on the nighttime feed workload, but he also has a severe epilepsy that means when he's sick we either take shifts sitting up with him for hours to make sure he's not seizing in his crib or we sleep incredibly lightly and bolt awake with every noise over the monitor or from the pack'n'play if he's in our room so all through cold and flu season when he's been sick so often sleep has not been a thing we've been getting.
I honestly don't even remember what it's like to not be regularly sleep deprived. I know there was a time that I remembered conversations, didn't constantly forget things if I didn't write them down in an obvious place, didn't misplace stuff regularly, never put something ridiculous in the refrigerator or put the kid's bathing suit on a pantry shelf (that one was my husband), like I *know* my brain is capable of functioning this way, but I'll be damned if I actually remember what that felt like. Maybe some day.
Anyway: tl;dr: this study suggesting that this is the difference between 8 and 7 hours sleep does not match my experience. There must be a *lot* of really solid sleepers in this data pool to balance out most of the people I know whose kids completely fuck over their sleep by much more than an hour a night.
posted by olinerd at 6:31 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
With our first, my husband was in the Navy and was away for months at a time so I literally just survived. I hated being a SAHP but it's a good thing I was because I was basically nonfunctional for over a year. I never managed to "sleep while the baby sleeps" because there was too much shit to do when you're the only adult in a high-maintenance house thousands of miles from any family or close friends. Definitely spent more than a few nights crying in frustration and exhaustion. And around 8 months when she had some sleep regression and teeth going on and I was up for 45 mins every two hours one night and kept going back to bed crying and dreading the next time I'd hear her through the monitor I thought to myself "You know what, fuck this, if I weaned her onto formula, she'd feel more full *and* my husband could help when he's home and I wouldn't feel this terrible" but then I pressured myself into breastfeeding for another month, because you're a bad parent if you don't breastfeed, right?
With our second, both of us being home has helped a lot, but also instead of a random old wooden chair as the nursing chair in the baby's room we bought a not fancy, but very functional and comfortable recliner, so when my son would have his all-night feeding sessions (or now that he's a year old, his all-night "I MUST BE CUDDLED IN ORDER TO SLEEP" sessions) whoever was up with him could just lay back and snooze. It's not the best sleep, but it's way better than nothing. And yes, SIDS risk, but there's plenty of risk in sitting upright in a regular chair and occasionally bolting awake finding yourself having nearly dropped the baby because your body just couldn't take it any more and literally passed out from exhaustion during a marathon feed. That definitely happened more than once. Recliner, y'all. Lay-z-boy that shit.
We weaned him onto formula earlier than his sister due to food allergies to stuff I ate and failure to gain weight (he's done MUCH better on formula) which helped on the nighttime feed workload, but he also has a severe epilepsy that means when he's sick we either take shifts sitting up with him for hours to make sure he's not seizing in his crib or we sleep incredibly lightly and bolt awake with every noise over the monitor or from the pack'n'play if he's in our room so all through cold and flu season when he's been sick so often sleep has not been a thing we've been getting.
I honestly don't even remember what it's like to not be regularly sleep deprived. I know there was a time that I remembered conversations, didn't constantly forget things if I didn't write them down in an obvious place, didn't misplace stuff regularly, never put something ridiculous in the refrigerator or put the kid's bathing suit on a pantry shelf (that one was my husband), like I *know* my brain is capable of functioning this way, but I'll be damned if I actually remember what that felt like. Maybe some day.
Anyway: tl;dr: this study suggesting that this is the difference between 8 and 7 hours sleep does not match my experience. There must be a *lot* of really solid sleepers in this data pool to balance out most of the people I know whose kids completely fuck over their sleep by much more than an hour a night.
posted by olinerd at 6:31 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
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posted by adamsc at 1:22 PM on March 1, 2019 [8 favorites]