Some Suburb of Hell
June 21, 2019 6:32 PM   Subscribe

 




When Joe Arpaio was doing it in the desert, people said it would be children next. And god damn it, it was.

From this post:
This is what it looks like to have sold your soul. Sarah Fabian, Senior Litigation Counsel with the Department of Justice stands up to defend the U.S. government's horrendous detention policies before three judges on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Judge William Fletcher asks "you're not seriously arguing that sleeping on the floor, in a freezing room, with the lights on all night, with only an aluminum foil blanket, and too crowded to lay down meets the standard of "safe and sanitary" conditions, are you? Indeed she was at minute 28. "Are you disagreeing that providing soap is part of safe and sanitary conditions?" Yes, she did at the 29th minute. "Do you agree that receiving a toothbrush, soap, or being able to sleep is not required as part of safe and secure conditions?" Yes, she agreed, they need not be provided at the 31st minute.
All along, the conspirators-in-waiting to genocide have been quietly in the wings of law enforcement, just waiting an avatar's political star to rise and unleash them.

ETA: The video in question where you can see it for yourself.
posted by tclark at 6:52 PM on June 21 [54 favorites]


Appalling. Imagine if our side voted in anywhere near the percentage that conservatives vote.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:55 PM on June 21 [9 favorites]


Was reading about this too, even if you avoid the camps: ICE Is Expected to Begin Operation on Sunday Targeting 2,000 Immigrant Family Members
posted by haemanu at 6:57 PM on June 21 [3 favorites]


I won't have kids. But I do have a weeks-old nephew and I am not looking forward to explaining this travesty to him someday. 20 years from now when they finally get all the documents it will be clear how it was so much worse than even this says.

A generational national shame. As if we needed another one.
posted by East14thTaco at 6:57 PM on June 21 [16 favorites]


If you care about what Trump is doing at the border you need to read this thread.
#DontLookAway.
The administration is violating every basic human right, and is moving toward military "solutions."
Fascism is here.
I posted this in the megathread where like in most of the USA it seems it will get lost in the noise of party political squabbling about an electorial race that hasn't formally started.
Meanwhile Children are dying and the majority of your country seem by their non actions to be just fine with that.
First they came for the immigrants
But I am not an immigrant, that was my ancestors.
posted by adamvasco at 8:03 PM on June 21 [40 favorites]


Something I don't get - what kind of targeted law enforcement operation involves announcing publicly that they're going to execute a big operation on x date? I mean I'm glad everyone has a heads up that ICE is going to do something horrendous on Sunday so they can arrange to make themselves safe, but what value does ICE get from letting the public know their plans and giving people a chance to make themselves harder to find? Is it to purposefully rile up the public, perform some kind of security theater? I'm asking in earnest, what's the point?
posted by windbox at 8:10 PM on June 21 [3 favorites]


Isn't Trump the one who spilled the news early? In which case, your answer is that Trump is a fucking idiot.
posted by odinsdream at 8:15 PM on June 21 [10 favorites]




law enforcement operation

The purpose of the operation is not law enforcement.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:22 PM on June 21 [52 favorites]


Is it to purposefully rile up the public, perform some kind of security theater?

It’s so the normal news media has something to talk about besides how Trump’s polling numbers are trailing behind all the major Democratic contenders, and so the conservative propaganda media has something to talk about besides how Trump chickened out on starting a war with Iran.
posted by ejs at 8:25 PM on June 21 [6 favorites]


what value does ICE get from letting the public know their plans and giving people a chance to make themselves harder to find?

Perhaps the assumption is that ICE will meet resistance and get to exert its authoritay, which is political catnip for the perhaps-unsurprisingly large number of fascists who've proudly come out of the sewage pit over the past three years.
posted by holgate at 8:34 PM on June 21 [11 favorites]


I mean I'm glad everyone has a heads up that ICE is going to do something horrendous on Sunday so they can arrange to make themselves safe, but what value does ICE get from letting the public know their plans and giving people a chance to make themselves harder to find?

Perhaps you're overestimating how much into hiding someone can go if ICE knows your name, where you work, where you live, where your kids attend school, where your family members live. ICE knows people can't drop everything to literally-literally go into hiding.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:51 PM on June 21 [9 favorites]




Is it to purposefully rile up the public, perform some kind of security theater?

Announcing the date keeps it in the news cycle a lot longer than if it were a surprise.

And sure, fascism is here, but this is what running an empire looks like, it's what a class based society looks like, it's what a race based society looks like, it's what these things have always looked like. A decent chunk of Americans got a respite in the 20th century due to the rest of the world being destroyed in WW2, some biscuits from the elites so we wouldn't go side with the commies when they were still around, and the immense need for labor post-WW2. They're just finishing rolling that all back up as those transient inconveniences have passed.
posted by MillMan at 9:01 PM on June 21 [16 favorites]



The purpose of the operation is not law enforcement


Yeahhh I probably should have put "law enforcement" in quotes
posted by windbox at 9:37 PM on June 21 [1 favorite]


Something I don't get - what kind of targeted law enforcement operation involves announcing publicly that they're going to execute a big operation on x date?

The best -- and I mean absolute top best possible result of these raids for Trump is an ICE agent ending up dead. Getting the immigrants scared and ready for the raids is just the first step.
posted by Etrigan at 10:04 PM on June 21 [9 favorites]


[W]hat's the point?

Once again, the cruelty is the point. And, sadly I think Etrigan is correct. Telegraph the round ups to add fear and terror to escalate an already inhumane situation and hope somebody protecting their child makes a "mistake."

It also gets people to declare against it and watch those declarations accomplish nothing. They are demonstrating their power and impunity. They aren't going to do it and get forgiveness afterwards. They are telling us all in advance who they we are as a country.
posted by Gotanda at 11:03 PM on June 21 [30 favorites]


"On June 12, the Department of Health and Human Services announced that Fort Sill, an Army post that hosted a World War II internment camp for detainees of Japanese descent, will now be repurposed to detain migrant children."
posted by clavdivs at 11:33 PM on June 21 [5 favorites]


As a political entity, this country needs to die.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:42 PM on June 21 [17 favorites]


a World War II internment camp for detainees of Japanese descent

Surprisingly not mentioned in the OP article is that American presidents and all manner of other officials referred to rounding up and confining Japanese Americans and other Asian Americans during WWII as the use of concentration camps. From a 2009 education program proposal document (PDF) on the National Park Service web site:
During the 1940s, a whole host of governmental officials, up to and including President Franklin D. Roosevelt, called the camps incarcerating Nikkei as concentration camps. Eight days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Congressman John Rankin clearly used the term in his following outburst. “I’m for catching every Japanese in America and putting them in concentrations camps...Damn them! Let’s get rid of them now!” In a press conference in November of 1944, President Roosevelt states the following as it relates to the Nisei of the time. “It is felt by a great many lawyers that under the Constitution they can’t be kept locked up in concentration camps.” In a 1961 interview, President Harry S. Truman gets right to the point saying “They were concentration camps. They called it relocation but they put them in concentration camps, and I was against it. We were in a period of emergency, but it was still wrong thing to do.” (It might be interesting to note here that very early in its history the War Relocation Authority leaders went out of their way to deny that they were running concentration camps.)
IIRC there's an Eisenhower quote too. So unless Fox News &co. want to argue that the people who fought WWII didn't know what a concentration camp was...
posted by XMLicious at 1:28 AM on June 22 [14 favorites]


Once again, the cruelty is the point.

Stephen Miller has documented that the whole point is to scare immigrants off the idea of coming to the U.S. Families aren't being separated mistakenly or because the administration is inept or overtaxed.
posted by xammerboy at 2:24 AM on June 22 [12 favorites]


"migrant babies"

What the fuckety fuck is a migrant baby you fuckety fuck mindless assholes? She or he is a HUMAN BABY
posted by hugbucket at 3:12 AM on June 22 [14 favorites]


The usual recommended steps if you oppose this are things like "call your representatives, join protests, donate to RAICES," etc.

I've called and called. My senators are two Republican dirtbags who DGAF. My representative is not, but not sure how effective he's going to be individually. (But yes, I again will contact his office today.)

We've protested. TBH, protesting seems like a massive circle jerk at this point. As far as I can tell the protests since Trump took office have had very little effect. Maybe, at the beginning, they had some effect. But the Fox News part of the country has just sneered and the rest of it doesn't seem to pay attention until something hits home directly.

I've donated. I will continue to donate.

What else? I live about 1,500 miles from the camps. I don't live in any of the cities targeted by ICE this weekend.

The organizations fighting this, like the ACLU, seem to be stuck in "normal politics" mode. Why are they not organizing general strikes or something that can be effective instead of the same protests and calls that those in power are ignoring? What, realistically, can individuals do at this point?
posted by jzb at 4:31 AM on June 22 [26 favorites]


General strike. It's going to take a general strike.
posted by ocschwar at 5:31 AM on June 22 [13 favorites]


RTFA

.
posted by lalochezia at 5:35 AM on June 22 [2 favorites]


For those of you wondering what action to take, there are people all over the country organizing today to distribute information to communities likely to be targeted. If you're not in one of the cities listed as targeted, it's still a good bet that ICE will plan on making raids. Resources to distribute are here at the Immigrant Defense Project and many other resources are available online. Contact Latinx and social justice organizations in your community to volunteer; they'll let you know what you can do. Keep your cameras ready. If you're in the Detroit area, join us in Southwest at 11 this morning to distribute information and organize protests.

This administration will push xenophobia, nationalism, and fascism as far as we let them. We have to push back. We just have to.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 6:22 AM on June 22 [9 favorites]


You could also get a group of people together and protest at your Republican senators' homes, if they're not listening at their constituency offices. And at the airport as they fly in and out of town, restaurants they try to eat out at, etc. Make it personally hard for them to support this personal cruelty toward other humans who are seeking asylum and safety.

Boycotts, strikes, protesting of board members, etc. against any companies or individuals who are profiting off of border detention would also be good. Maybe a little harder to get that info and make a big enough difference. Step 1 is labor organizing and community organizing to build back up organizations that have the capacity to organize economic actions that will make a big difference. Showing people how the Trump administration's anti-immigrant and border detention policies are intricately tied up with their anti-labor and other cruel and punitive domestic policies is also an important step. Talk to you neighbors, family, co-workers.
posted by eviemath at 7:22 AM on June 22 [5 favorites]


what value does ICE get from letting the public know their plans and giving people a chance to make themselves harder to find?

Terror.

TBH, protesting seems like a massive circle jerk at this point. As far as I can tell the protests since Trump took office have had very little effect.

Specifically, I went to the Families Belong Together protest last year because I hoped to God that it would be covered by Spanish language media and would maybe give some heart to people here in the US and abroad that they ARE welcome here and that their imprisonment, torture and death is NOT being forgotten or ignored or implicitly condoned. I thought of a grandma and her grandkids sitting down to dinner or whatever with Univision on and I desperately wanted them to look up and see a big crowd of people explicitly saying that YES they are welcome here, YES they belong here.

Nowadays I would go (and have gone) to other protests for similar reasons, although yes, it does ring somewhat hollow considering we can offer practically no concrete protection at all.

That said, I went to a church service last weekend where the pastor talked about the value of recording dissent. He was talking about how important it is even now (especially now?) to be able to look back at the past and see people publicly and explicitly dissenting against slavery and bigotry and talking about their goals/dreams to end it. And every voice of dissent is important, not just the ones that are written up in polished, deeply researched articles like the one in this post (although of course those, too, are very important). So that inspired me to continue and increase my work in doing that, because creating that record of public dissent -- protests, articles, essays, broadcasts, etc -- is probably the best skill I personally have to offer. Dissatisfying and frustrating as that is.

In any case, these are concentration camps, and this is coming from someone who had great-grandparents and cousins and lots of other relatives (who I never knew of course) murdered in concentration camps in the last century and who has heard stories of camps and massive, modern, state-sponsored genocide her whole life. It's important not to let people use euphemisms and lie about what these camps are and why and how they function. Even after WWII there were people saying that they had ~no idea~ that the Nazis ran death camps and people were being tortured and murdered by the million, and people did and still do use that supposed ignorance as cover for complicity and all sorts of crimes. We have to keep speaking the truth now, it's important and helps shape how things will go. The point isn't "reaching" some random asshole in Trump country, it's making a statement to the people who are being terrorized and targeted here in the US, and communicating what's happening to everybody outside the US (including world leaders), and leaving a record of dissent for people in the future to refer back to, whether that future is in a few months or a few years or a few decades or longer. Also, solidarity itself isn't just some heartfelt bullshit, it's politically and concretely important in terms of forming reliable networks of help and resistance, so communicating solidarity is politically and concretely important.

This may sound alarmist, but if things continue on this path then, we may also need (international) help in liberating these camps -- and the more truthful and loud we are about what they are and what is happening in them and why, the more persuasive power we have and the better shot we have of getting them liberated. It's not all about having the physical might to tear down walls, most of our power as human beings is in our voices. Liberation doesn't happen by being silent, scared, disheartened, or cynical.

My apologies for being so corny and also for probably preaching to the choir. I just think it's desperately important to find the inspiration to speak louder and more truthfully in the face of horrors like this, not to be shocked and scared into silence.
posted by rue72 at 8:15 AM on June 22 [81 favorites]


rue72, thank you for your heartfelt comment. It has shed new light for me on the need and importance of speaking up.
posted by hugbucket at 8:45 AM on June 22 [2 favorites]


20 years from now when they finally get all the documents it will be clear how it was so much worse than even this says.

When you ask yourself what you would have done in the past when natives or Japanese-Americans were being shipped off to the camps, the answer is you would be doing what you are doing right now.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:25 AM on June 22 [37 favorites]


As someone put it somewhere,
Enlightenedcentrist 2016: "Why are you so against Trump, it's not like he's going to build concentration camps."
Enlightenedcentrist 2019: "Calling them concentration camps is wrong because semantics, and I find that offensive."
posted by Pyrogenesis at 9:31 AM on June 22 [32 favorites]


Now? Now can I say Burn it all the fuck down, without the mods getting all bent out of shape because I'm being mean to the goddamned conservatives? Or something.

Well?!

Perhaps you would prefer me to say pyrotechnicly modify the sexually congregate system?
posted by evilDoug at 9:51 AM on June 22 [6 favorites]


I have printed off a bunch of flyers with know your rights info, and lawyer phone numbers, and have distributed them in areas where undocumented workers may be. Restaurants and local businesses have been surprisingly cool with me posting them on windows, doors, and beside registers. Chain corps haven’t allowed it anywhere I’ve tried.

The two Catholic churches, one primarily Anglo and one primarily Latinx, already had some info, but were glad to have the Raices flyer. Both churches have said they will offer sanctuary, and may need assistance, depending on what happens. The huge, Baptist megachurch wouldn’t let me leave the flyers and will not be offering sanctuary. Quel surprise. There are no other big churches, but even the tiny Pentecostal trailer church let me leave flyers.

This is something we can all do, if you’re feeling the need to do something. Even if the big raids aren’t scheduled or announced for your area, until we can abolish ICE, this is going to continue, nationwide. Protect your neighbors by helping them to protect their rights.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:54 AM on June 22 [11 favorites]


"TBH, protesting seems like a massive circle jerk at this point. As far as I can tell the protests since Trump took office have had very little effect. Maybe, at the beginning, they had some effect. But the Fox News part of the country has just sneered and the rest of it doesn't seem to pay attention until something hits home directly."

The exact same arguments applied to protests in the time of Gandhi, MLK, and Mandela.

The purpose of non violent resistance isn't to coax oppressors into yielding power. It is to build up movement among the oppressed and allies to take back power from oppressors.

And yes, it won't be quick nor easy.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:56 AM on June 22 [11 favorites]


As far as I can tell the protests since Trump took office have had very little effect.

While no single form of resistance can take all the credit, it's worth re-emphasizing that by all traditional economic models, Trump's approval should be in the mid-fifties or higher, not the low forties. His idiotic lying bullying narcissism doesn't do that on its own: it takes constant work from everyone: the media, Congress, the courts, the federal institutions, social media, protests, all of it. If it weren't for all that, there would be almost no chance of ousting him in 2020 given the fundamentals. A 10+ point effect is a lot! It doesn't stop many of the events themselves -- that's difficult to do until we have massive, city-gridlocking street protests -- but it has a huge effect in making the election of genuinely progressive alternatives a real possibility, and lots of indirect effects by reducing the power of an unpopular president. So anyway, this is far from being meant as optimism, but the effects, such as they are, are real.
posted by chortly at 10:16 AM on June 22 [10 favorites]


The edit history for the "examples" section in the Wikipedia article on internment/concentration camps looks exactly like you suppose it does.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:19 AM on June 22 [8 favorites]


I spent all day in the state reminiscent of the day Trump was elected, and the pushes against abortion by the state legislatures.

The news about their disingenuous argument about "enumerated" provisions in the court ruling so they dont' have to fucking keep kids clean.

I had an experience the other day in a thread (that thankfully was deleted as derail) - but I want to thank the people who replied to me for helping to clarify my approach and stance.

A friend started to Tu Quoque ("where were you when...") - a friend who's on the correct side of things for the most part, but likes to goad liberals I didn't reply, but it reinforced the idea to me:

We need to stop this bullshit. Both THEIR bullshit and OUR bullshit. And while we play our Bullshit their bullshit grows, so we need to stop our bullshit so we can focus on dealing with their bullshit.

ALL OF US.

I am going to see a friend in a couple weeks and it means seeing my parents. My mom who i love and who has such a kind heart and I just wish I could get her to drop the scales from her eyes to this horror.

And i have railed and gotten angry and yelled in the past, fruitlessly. And I know nothing I do will make her change, but I am thinking - like look mom, I know you're not gonna vote Dem and maybe you even support deportation...

But can you for a goddamned second look at the reality that we are inflicting on these children. Put yourself in their shoes, or as a mother, your shoes as a mother (I hate the "relational worth" approach but it's the best thing I can think of in this case).

All day, nonstop support chats to deal with at work, but my brain just tried to escape to deal with this mentally. It wasn't an easy day.

I still struggle to find things to do, but I believe the best at this point is think strategically, support orgs who are there in these times. Local and national.

If you can protest, if there are any, please do so.

If you can patrol and maybe make your community aware. Please do.
posted by symbioid at 10:56 AM on June 22 [7 favorites]


Dispatch from Detroit: we've been working all day, handing out flyers door to door, organizing sanctuary, getting lawyers ready, passing out a central help number. We've got teams covering Latinx, Arab, African, and Asian communities. Is it going to turn the tide? No, not yet. But I know that we reached thousands. I know that we ensured a more difficult time for la migra.

We can fight and win this war. We can prevent whatever apocalyptic cleansing Stephen Miller fantasizes about. But we have to do it in solidarity, on the streets and in the courts. We have to stop pretending it's going back to normal. There is no back to go. Only forward.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 11:21 AM on June 22 [24 favorites]


As far as I can tell the protests since Trump took office have had very little effect.

Why does everyone forget 2018 so quickly? Here's one ICE-specific result of frequent protests.
ICE officials have changed their minds multiple times in recent days about when to begin the operation to target families, according to one of the homeland security officials. The agency has long been hesitant about such raids because of the bad optics they generate.
...
Widespread raids of families could provoke a similar outcry, much of it directed against the gun-wielding agents making the arrests. That has left homeland security’s leadership nervous about the potential consequences of the operation.
--From this NYT article, quoted by zachlipton here.

I can't prove it, but I suspect one of the reasons why ICE announced Sunday's raid in advance is because they want to blunt protests and minimize the "bad optics". Announcing the raid in advance will let many of their targets escape. That's not something cops usually do. But if the massive raids came as a surprise, in this current tense climate, it would be explosive. Thus something ICE wants to avoid and that's, in part, due to the willingness of people to protest.

Protesting in large enough numbers does work. It doesn't work overnight and it often doesn't work 100%. But it does eventually work as long as people don't give up.
posted by Teegeeack AV Club Secretary at 11:45 AM on June 22 [10 favorites]


Remember that the Palmer Raids haunted J. Edgar Hoover's entire career, to the point where he had to equivocate every single time it came up. Had people been more dogged early on, they could have hindered his vicious little KGB empire in the US.

Keep track of everyone involved in ICE or aiding these raids. We need to prevent them holding office in future.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 11:58 AM on June 22 [10 favorites]


I have a few ideas about this (why announce):
1) Trump's recent Iran move. He's gaslighting us. Announce the raids, force people to panic. Announce : oh my merciful stay...

2) Watch people scurry, observe. Call it off. But they have information on more targets - who's helping, traffic flows, etc...

3) Raid places they didn't announce - prestidigitation: Look over here! (NOPE! We're busy fucking over people where we didn't announce, PSYCHE!)

4) They really are going to do it and are looking for conflict to escalate.

These aren't all mutually exclusive.
posted by symbioid at 11:59 AM on June 22 [5 favorites]


It's worth noting that the Convention on the Rights of the Child mentioned in the article has been ratified by every single country on the planet except the United States.
posted by euphorb at 12:33 PM on June 22 [10 favorites]


https://www.channel3000.com/news/politics/national-politics/trump-defends-ice-arrests-and-deportations-expected-sunday/1088421387

"Trump to delay ICE raids until Congress can 'work out a solution'
Earlier in day, president defended raids"

Don't trust these liars, and abusers. Be on the lookout and aware. Don't let your guard down.

But no doubt they've been watching and taking notes on our online activity.
posted by symbioid at 1:09 PM on June 22 [3 favorites]


The exact same arguments applied to protests in the time of Gandhi, MLK, and Mandela.

For a host of reasons, MeFi isn’t the place to discuss whether political violence is ever justified, but I feel I should point out that Mandela’s journey as a revolutionary was not a non-violent one, and in fact Mandela resorted to increasingly violent tactics as it became clear that his original approach was not working.

Having started with non-violent protests (modeled after Gandhi) and concluded that they were ineffective, Mandela co-founded a group that engaged in a bombing campaign against infrastructure, and had been undergoing a course in guerrilla warfare in Ethiopia at the time of his arrest.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:36 PM on June 22 [12 favorites]


Put yourself in their shoes, or as a mother, your shoes as a mother (I hate the "relational worth" approach but it's the best thing I can think of in this case).

The SPLC specifically recommends appeals to relational worth and similar, in fact:
WHAT CAN I DO ABOUT PARENTAL ATTITUDES?
...
SPEAKING UP

Learning how to have adult-to-adult dialogue is part of the maturation process for any child-parent relationship. As we grow older, we sometimes develop different views than those of our parents, guardians or childhood caregivers. Navigating such conflicts often is complicated by a common cultural norm: respect your elders. How, then, can we cross these divides?

Speak up without “talking back.” Repeat information, removing unnecessary racial or ethnic descriptions: “What did the checkout clerk do next, Mom?” Or, “Yes, I like these mixed nuts, too.” Subtly model bias-free language.

Appeal to parental values. Call upon the principles that guided your childhood home. “Dad, when I was growing up, you taught me to treat others the way I wanted to be treated. And I just don’t think that term is very nice.”

Discuss actively. Ask clarifying questions: “Why do you feel that way?” “Are you saying everyone should feel this way?” Articulate your view: “You know, Dad, I see this differently. Here’s why.” Strive for common ground: “What can we agree on here?”

Anticipate and rehearse. When you know bias is likely to arise, practice possible responses in front of a mirror beforehand. Figure out what works best for you, what feels the most comfortable. Become confident in your responses, and use them.
posted by eviemath at 10:19 PM on June 22 [15 favorites]


chappell, ambrose: Having started with non-violent protests (modeled after Gandhi) and concluded that they were ineffective, Mandela co-founded a group that engaged in a bombing campaign against infrastructure, and had been undergoing a course in guerrilla warfare in Ethiopia at the time of his arrest.

Didn't Mandela's ultimate success come after he had returned to non-violence, though? His period of guerrilla warfare was only about 5 ineffective years in the middle of 50 years of non-violence, wasn't it?
posted by clawsoon at 8:41 AM on June 23


Didn't Mandela's ultimate success come after he had returned to non-violence, though? His period of guerrilla warfare was only about 5 ineffective years in the middle of 50 years of non-violence, wasn't it?

I don’t know, does it count as a “return to non-violence” if you’re imprisoned for 27 years?

To pick a random example, have the Guantanamo detainees now chosen to follow a course of non-violence?
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:30 AM on June 23 [2 favorites]


chappell, ambrose: I don’t know, does it count as a “return to non-violence” if you’re imprisoned for 27 years?

As I understand it - and correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm no expert - Mandela did go back to supporting non-violence while he was in prison, and he used his later years in prison to build peace-promoting networks among both blacks and whites.

To pick a random example, have the Guantanamo detainees now chosen to follow a course of non-violence?

I don't know any individual stories from Guantanamo, but I suspect that the answer would be different for each detainee. I'm sure that there were South African prisoners who didn't give up support for violence, but Mandela was one who did.
posted by clawsoon at 9:49 AM on June 23


As I understand it - and correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm no expert - Mandela did go back to supporting non-violence while he was in prison, and he used his later years in prison to build peace-promoting networks among both blacks and whites.

Shortly: no, this is incorrect.

Mandela was repeatedly offered early release and better conditions if he agreed to unconditionally and publicly renounce violence, and he consistently refused.

After his release, he was explicit in the first speech he gave that the ANC would continue to use violence as necessary to defend against the state violence of apartheid.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 9:58 AM on June 23 [9 favorites]


From Wikipedia:
[In 1990] Driven to Cape Town's City Hall through crowds, he gave a speech declaring his commitment to peace and reconciliation with the white minority, but made it clear that the ANC's armed struggle was not over, and would continue as "a purely defensive action against the violence of apartheid".
Huh. I guess I was taken in by the 1980s propaganda about what a 100% peaceful guy he was.
posted by clawsoon at 9:58 AM on June 23 [2 favorites]


It looks like protests are being planned for Friday, July 12:

Lights For Liberty

Local events are listed in Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Kansas, Michigan, New York, Ohio, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, Washington, and downtown DC.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:27 AM on June 23 [4 favorites]


Huh. I guess I was taken in by the 1980s propaganda about what a 100% peaceful guy he was.

Last comment and then I’ll drop the derail.

The interesting thing about Mandela as an emblem of non-violence, is that it’s just a straightforward falsehood.

With Indian independence and the Civil Rights struggle in the US, there are at least two figureheads who completely adopted non-violence, so to sanitise these messy power struggles is simply a question of ignoring Azad, Bhagat Singh, Subhas Chandra Bose, etc on the one hand and Malcolm X, Huey Newton, John Africa, etc on the other, along with all of the many other revolutionaries involved who didn’t subscribe to that specific philosophy of resistance. (Not to say that these examples were necessarily nice or admirable people - just that they were equally committed to the conflicts that they were involved in and clearly contributed to the successes that the movements had.)

Whereas with Mandela, in the absence of an explicitly non-violent figurehead that can be credited with a major victory for decolonialism, one has been simply retconned into existence.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:28 AM on June 23 [25 favorites]


Lying to ICE might arguably be obstruction so the fewer questions asked and answered the better.

"Puedo/podemos ayudar" is a great phrase.
posted by East14thTaco at 3:16 PM on June 23 [3 favorites]


New Yorker: Inside a Texas Building Where the Government is Holding Immigrant Children
[O]n Wednesday, we received reports from children of a lice outbreak in one of the cells where there were about twenty-five children, and what they told us is that six of the children were found to have lice. And so they were given a lice shampoo, and the other children were given two combs and told to share those two combs, two lice combs, and brush their hair with the same combs, which is something you never do with a lice outbreak. And then what happened was one of the combs was lost, and Border Patrol agents got so mad that they took away the children’s blankets and mats. They weren’t allowed to sleep on the beds, and they had to sleep on the floor on Wednesday night as punishment for losing the comb. So you had a whole cell full of kids who had beds and mats at one point, not for everybody but for most of them, who were forced to sleep on the cement.
@KristinMinkDC
A reminder that Anne Frank didn’t die in gas chambers. She died from sickness due to unsanitary conditions, specifically typhus — a disease spread by lice.
And I’d just like to reiterate the comment from Ricochet Biscuit upthread:

When you ask yourself what you would have done in the past when natives or Japanese-Americans were being shipped off to the camps, the answer is you would be doing what you are doing right now.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 6:14 AM on June 24 [15 favorites]


The BP station in Texas that caused this story to break is now being cleared out. 300 children getting bussed out according to the Associated Press.
posted by ocschwar at 10:05 AM on June 24 [3 favorites]


What the fuck is going on???
posted by odinsdream at 10:32 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Tips For Staying Civil While Debating Child Prisons

It’s been almost exactly a year since this Onion article was published. It’s really good (it’s legit funny, and angry) but I wonder how a modern audience would react to a wry, cynical article about concentration camps from other periods of history. It certainly undercuts any later “we didn’t know what was happening in our name” excuses.
posted by chappell, ambrose at 11:31 AM on June 24 [6 favorites]


Despite these most recent revelations, I feel like public outrage over these concentration camps has hit some kind of plateau, i.e.: I think the number of people who were previously ambivalent and who have now turned to outrage by the latest information is marginal at best. My feeling is that the only that will overcome this plateau and kick up public awareness/outrage to the next level is if someone manages to smuggle out unauthorized video footage from inside one of these camps. It's one thing to read about the deprivation, it's another to have it broadcast in visual form.
posted by mhum at 3:40 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]


My feeling is that the only that will overcome this plateau and kick up public awareness/outrage to the next level is if someone manages to smuggle out unauthorized video footage from inside one of these camps.

My feeling is that the only thing that might shock the conscience is if white children -- I mean, blonde blue-eyed white kids -- die in them. And maybe not even that. The kind of empathy that extended to the Jewish children murdered en masse in the death camps is not exactly on show in the US these days.
posted by holgate at 8:16 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]


BCP facilities turn away donations of soap and diapers.

Some reporter needs to rub this in Pence's face.
posted by ocschwar at 8:33 PM on June 24 [4 favorites]


I posted this in the catchall but LM says it belongs over here:

Genocide is coming and we have no choice but to appeal to the only genocide that we mostly recognize as such.

Genocide is HERE. Check out the legal definition of genocide according to the United Nations, and scroll down to item 6, "Genocidal Acts". Included in that section:

Less obvious methods of destruction, such as the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival and which are available to the rest of the population, such as clean water, food and medical services;

Creation of circumstances that could lead to a slow death, such as lack of proper housing, clothing and hygiene or excessive work or physical exertion;

and

Forcible transfer of children, imposed by direct force or through fear of violence, duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion

I also tweeted a version of this, because I think it's something that people don't understand, and really need to.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:14 AM on June 26 [13 favorites]


rabbitrabbit I am going to also tweet that. Thank you for sharing .
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 8:48 AM on June 26 [2 favorites]




I know this is not directly pertinent, I know it's depressing, and I know it's further removed from what we as Americans can influence than ICE, but I think it's important to remember that the Xinjiang detention camp system ("vocational training center") for Uyghurs and Rohingya refugee camps in Myanmar, India, and Bangladesh are ongoing detention camp networks affecting millions of people right now.

I say this because I think these things, rather than Nazi death camps, are a contemporary template for what Trump and ICE may succeed in building. This doesn't make it better. To me, it makes it worse, because we have people alive right now who can tell us what is happening right now to millions of people being held in detention camps. No, concentration camps, of which Nazi death camps were a subset. It's what they are. There are tens of millions of people held in such camps around the world right now, more in total than the Nazis ever detained, and that's bad enough on its own, because despite the Nazis, we didn't learn. Comparisons to Nazis are apt, but possibly might not be as relevant as ongoing persecution and genocides.

rue72's comment about recording dissent is worth printing out and framing. It's worth etching in stone and erecting in city squares. Every bit of dissent you can throw at this problem is weight on the scales against injustice and horror. Use the Nazis, use the Uyghur detentions, use the Rohingya clusterf**k as your metaphor for ICE and Trump, but stand against this. As said upthread, it matters.
posted by saysthis at 10:45 AM on June 27 [8 favorites]


A Crime by Any Name, Adam Serwer
Yet as horrifying as the conditions in these facilities are, this is not the Shoah, when the bureaucracy and industrial capacity of a modern state were marshaled to wipe the Jewish people from the Earth forever, and those who equate the two are mistaken. The Trump administration wants to preserve the political and cultural hegemony of white Americans, and by extension the Republican Party, over the United States, and is willing to break the law to do so. But the crime being committed is not genocide. America, though, has its own history with concentration camps, going back long before Hitler rose to power. And the malice, indifference, and deadly incompetence with which these facilities are run echoes that history.

In 1901, Colonel Jacob H. Smith was court-martialed for his use of “reconcentration,” among other brutal tactics, during the American occupation of the Philippines in 1901. The Supreme Court infamously upheld the internment of Japanese civilians during World War II, including at a site that the government now wants to use to detain migrant children. The precursor to what Americans are seeing at the border is not Auschwitz, but Fort Sill, Batangas, and Andersonville.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:59 AM on July 3


US Concentration Camp List
LIVE: #JewsAgainstICE & allies are blocking the ICE detention center in Orange, CA.
Never again
posted by adamvasco at 11:20 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]




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