a matter of limited hearts
October 20, 2020 7:13 AM Subscribe
"Consider that misinformation is information that merely happens to be false, whereas disinformation is false information purposely spread. Similarly, mispronunciation is people trying too feebly and in vain to say our names — and dispronunciation is people saying our names incorrectly on purpose, as if to remind us whose country this really is. Mispronunciation is a matter of limited tongues. Dispronunciation is a matter of limited hearts. For as long as I can remember, I have had to navigate around the shortcomings of both organs." Anand Giridharadas in his newsletter on the meaning of Sen. Perdue's misnaming of Kamala Harris and #MyNameIs on Twitter.
My first name is Xinyu. The "X" is an "s"-sound, not a "z"-sound, and the "u" isn't a "u" at all, it's actually a ü but in hanyu pinyin the umlaut isn't included when it comes before a "y". When I was in the US for college, most people I met couldn't manage it. Ordering drinks from Starbucks was a pain; I ended up just using "Jon" (I was reading A Game of Thrones back then). My favourite professors also happened to be the ones that listened very intently when I said my name and tried their best to emulate it.
posted by destrius at 8:06 AM on October 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by destrius at 8:06 AM on October 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
"As far as I can tell, Americans have no problem saying “Daenerys Targaryen.” Or “supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.” Or “Hakeem Olajuwon.”
THIS.
Anand is a wonderful thinker, I encourage anyone and everyone to seek out his work.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2020 [14 favorites]
THIS.
Anand is a wonderful thinker, I encourage anyone and everyone to seek out his work.
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:07 AM on October 20, 2020 [14 favorites]
When my wife and I were thinking of names for our kids the ability for the average Canadian to pronounce it was a huge filter. I don't think I've ever experienced the dispronunciation of my name but the mispronunciations happen daily. The worst is with friends who I didn't bother to correct the first times we interacted because they were just some random person and I didn't want to pay that tax and now it would be kind of a thing to correct them.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 8:26 AM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 8:26 AM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
When it came time to name my second child, a daughter, I wanted to give her a Japanese name that was analogous to a Western name. But many of the ones I considered -- Jun, Emi, Mari and the like -- I realized that she'd go thru a lifetime of having her name either mispronounced or misspelled. Fortunately I discovered "Naomi," which even we don't pronounce in the Japanese way (with a soft "a").
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on October 20, 2020
posted by Gelatin at 8:37 AM on October 20, 2020
One of the tweets linked in the article hit home: when my daughters were about to be born, we spent an inordinate amount of time to make sure they have names that would be biculturally significant and easily pronounceable by monolingual people. The added difficulty of avoiding letters like J which is pronounced differently in Spanish made it more complicated. We had a list of 6 names. And all girl names; I don't know what we would have done if one of them had turned out to be a boy :). At least in Mexico, there is the second name system; so, if the first name is oppressive, they can always go with the second one.
posted by dhruva at 8:57 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by dhruva at 8:57 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I actually gave up a lucrative gig at my university because the moron in charge refused to pronounce my name correctly, even though I corrected here each and every time she mangled it, and she'd just like laugh it off with 'oh, it's so hard'. Reader, it's not really, and it's spelled phonetically in Spanish. I corrected her every. Single. Time. Until I was just done with her.
She was annoying for other reasons as well, but this was a big part of why I stopped working with her.
posted by signal at 8:58 AM on October 20, 2020 [14 favorites]
She was annoying for other reasons as well, but this was a big part of why I stopped working with her.
posted by signal at 8:58 AM on October 20, 2020 [14 favorites]
Oh, and I named my son with a common central european name, which is short and trivial to pronounce in Spanish exactly as it's spelled, yet people STILL mis(dis)pronounce it, adding stresses in wrong places, seemingly for no reason.
posted by signal at 9:00 AM on October 20, 2020
posted by signal at 9:00 AM on October 20, 2020
I've had the opposite happen to me, where my name is an incredibly simple English name, but people see I'm Asian, overcompensate, and try to "exoticize" the pronunciation.
posted by airmail at 9:03 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by airmail at 9:03 AM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Think something like "Daisy", and people going like "ah, it must be an Asian name - Dye-Shee"?
posted by airmail at 9:08 AM on October 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by airmail at 9:08 AM on October 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
On a side note, it is maybe relevant to remember that "Perdu(e)" means "Lost" in French.
posted by nicolin at 9:16 AM on October 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by nicolin at 9:16 AM on October 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
Dispronunciation is a great term for what's happening here, and I hope it catches on.
posted by tclark at 9:46 AM on October 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
posted by tclark at 9:46 AM on October 20, 2020 [27 favorites]
I swear I think most people are flat out lazy. I'm terrible with names and I feel awful about it because names have meaning. I try my damndest and I don't mind someone pointing it out because I want to get it right.
Why do I say people are lazy? Because as a kid, named Andrew, people always, always wanted to shorten it to "Andy" and I refused. Hate that name with the passion of a thousand burning suns. Insisted that I be called Andrew. People got super pissy about it constantly. Finally in the end, I settled on Drew as a name and have been just dandy with that for the past 30+ years.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:47 AM on October 20, 2020
Why do I say people are lazy? Because as a kid, named Andrew, people always, always wanted to shorten it to "Andy" and I refused. Hate that name with the passion of a thousand burning suns. Insisted that I be called Andrew. People got super pissy about it constantly. Finally in the end, I settled on Drew as a name and have been just dandy with that for the past 30+ years.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:47 AM on October 20, 2020
I tend to think that if you hate the standard nickname for a kid, it's very hard to NOT have people use that nickname. Like if you like Jacqueline but hate Jackie, that kid will by god get called Jackie a good chunk of the time whether or not you like it. Also, people compulsively nickname, which may or may not go well.
I was watching a play reading the other night and there was a character named Alberto and someone immediately just wanted to call him Albert right off the back. He said he went by Berto (which isn't hard!) and then the person was all, "Bare toe?"
"As far as I can tell, Americans have no problem saying “Daenerys Targaryen.” Or “supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.” Or “Hakeem Olajuwon.”
Hm, it just occurred to me that if you hear the name said (or sung) enough, maybe that's why? You had it drilled into you more?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:03 AM on October 20, 2020
I was watching a play reading the other night and there was a character named Alberto and someone immediately just wanted to call him Albert right off the back. He said he went by Berto (which isn't hard!) and then the person was all, "Bare toe?"
"As far as I can tell, Americans have no problem saying “Daenerys Targaryen.” Or “supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.” Or “Hakeem Olajuwon.”
Hm, it just occurred to me that if you hear the name said (or sung) enough, maybe that's why? You had it drilled into you more?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:03 AM on October 20, 2020
I really enjoyed this, and I’m so glad to learn the term “dispronunciation,” which is what I always thought of as “Gym Teacher Comedy.” Like it’s the first, easiest joke an adult who is allowed to bully kids will go for to get a laugh.
My last name is white as hell, just like me, but it’s not all that common. The spelling and pronunciation are letters/sounds that people see and hear all the time, and people CONSTANTLY fuck it up even when it’s written right there on a paper in black and white - people go reading all these letters and sounds into it that aren’t even on the page.
Fuck it: my last name is Simmermon, and people constantly say “Zimmerman,” “Simmerson,” “Simmerton,” “Simm-Ron.” These letters that come out of people’s mouths are not what’s on the page!
I’ve botched names like Anand before and had to be told and retold to pronounce unfamiliar names correctly. Many times it’s been because I had an attachment in my head to the way it sounded when I read it, and I was failing to actually listen to the other person.
posted by chinese_fashion at 11:14 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
My last name is white as hell, just like me, but it’s not all that common. The spelling and pronunciation are letters/sounds that people see and hear all the time, and people CONSTANTLY fuck it up even when it’s written right there on a paper in black and white - people go reading all these letters and sounds into it that aren’t even on the page.
Fuck it: my last name is Simmermon, and people constantly say “Zimmerman,” “Simmerson,” “Simmerton,” “Simm-Ron.” These letters that come out of people’s mouths are not what’s on the page!
I’ve botched names like Anand before and had to be told and retold to pronounce unfamiliar names correctly. Many times it’s been because I had an attachment in my head to the way it sounded when I read it, and I was failing to actually listen to the other person.
posted by chinese_fashion at 11:14 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm a white woman whose name is mispronounced and misspelled frequently as an unrelated male name in the heavily-vowel-merged region where I live (think "Don" for "Dawn").
It's misgendering and disconfirming and insulting and almost certainly never intentional, whether it's a Starbucks barista or a drawling colleague who dictated their email and just didn't bother to spell-check it.
It's also absolutely NOTHING compared to what happens when some blowhard with a microphone makes a big theatrical production out of not knowing how to pronounce the first name of the Democratic VP candidate, who also happens to be a woman of color, and who is more of a household name than he'll ever be.
posted by armeowda at 11:16 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's misgendering and disconfirming and insulting and almost certainly never intentional, whether it's a Starbucks barista or a drawling colleague who dictated their email and just didn't bother to spell-check it.
It's also absolutely NOTHING compared to what happens when some blowhard with a microphone makes a big theatrical production out of not knowing how to pronounce the first name of the Democratic VP candidate, who also happens to be a woman of color, and who is more of a household name than he'll ever be.
posted by armeowda at 11:16 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm east asian with an english name and my wife is south asian with a south asian name. When we named our kids, we decided that we'd name them with south asian names because with my last name, each part of their name would reflect their heritage.
I was on the fence a little bit. I of course want them to be proud and representative of their heritage. But some little thing in the back of my mind kept saying "wouldn't it be easier to give them american names"? Some tiny part of me, despite all this, still thinks of european names as more american than my own children's.
I tell myself that I want my kids to live in a country where any name can be and is as American as any other. If having children is a prayer for the future, then how could we name them anything else? And yet, when I look at the US, I wonder whether it's wishful thinking.
posted by thewumpusisdead at 11:17 AM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
I was on the fence a little bit. I of course want them to be proud and representative of their heritage. But some little thing in the back of my mind kept saying "wouldn't it be easier to give them american names"? Some tiny part of me, despite all this, still thinks of european names as more american than my own children's.
I tell myself that I want my kids to live in a country where any name can be and is as American as any other. If having children is a prayer for the future, then how could we name them anything else? And yet, when I look at the US, I wonder whether it's wishful thinking.
posted by thewumpusisdead at 11:17 AM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
Not that I disagree that there are white folks whose names are commonly mispronounced, or that there is a general tendency towards nicknames, but I think that reaching for that as your first response to this article overlooks and diminishes the racism inherent in the sorts of dispronounciation that Anand Giridharadas describes and basically is part of the problem.
posted by ChuraChura at 11:18 AM on October 20, 2020 [34 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 11:18 AM on October 20, 2020 [34 favorites]
ChuraChura: "… I think that reaching for that as your first response to this article overlooks and diminishes the racism…"
Ding ding ding!
posted by signal at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Ding ding ding!
posted by signal at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
There is a telling example of othering and contempt in the movie Office Space where Samir Nagheenanajar is laid off by The Bobs with a cheap joke. It's satire because, like Shylock, it bleeds. I spent the last eight years teaching science to a lot of New Irish from East Europe and West Africa. I worked hard to get the names right. Because diversity rocks. I told to my PharmTech students that it was important to get people's names right as much as the drugs. Nobody benefits to mix up Tamoxifen v Tenoxicam; the breast cancer therapy v a handy NSAID.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:45 AM on October 20, 2020
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:45 AM on October 20, 2020
My last name is Norwegian, and I still remember when I got laid off from my first real job by a guy who'd never learned to pronounce it...and yes, he bungled it as he said I wasn't wanted any more.
Also: I swear I think most people are flat out lazy.
I agree, mostly, but I also know that a lot of people have the habit of emphasizing the second-to-last syllable -- and never really absorbing corrections. Many people who work with & for me still can't say my name, and now it's years too late to fix it!
posted by wenestvedt at 11:50 AM on October 20, 2020
Also: I swear I think most people are flat out lazy.
I agree, mostly, but I also know that a lot of people have the habit of emphasizing the second-to-last syllable -- and never really absorbing corrections. Many people who work with & for me still can't say my name, and now it's years too late to fix it!
posted by wenestvedt at 11:50 AM on October 20, 2020
You know, maybe my earlier comment is part of the problem.
However, I intended it as a way of trying to relate to the author and share an adjacent if not parallel experience that didn't minimize what he was saying.
I didn't mention the racism that the author is mentioning because I thought it was fairly obvious, and didn't have an experience to relate to in that regard.
posted by chinese_fashion at 11:54 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
However, I intended it as a way of trying to relate to the author and share an adjacent if not parallel experience that didn't minimize what he was saying.
I didn't mention the racism that the author is mentioning because I thought it was fairly obvious, and didn't have an experience to relate to in that regard.
posted by chinese_fashion at 11:54 AM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
"… I think that reaching for that as your first response to this article overlooks and diminishes the racism…"
Oh, Giridharadas's piece is definitely about deliberate slights. In the comments you're alluding to, I also hear that laziness and inertia serve to reinforce and cover for those slights. That is, common and simple mispronunciation provides a handy place to hide for assholes who dispronounce on purpose.
Yesterday I heard a piece about how caste discrimination in American workplaces is invisible to the Americans, but obvious among the South Asians. The Americans simply don't even know it's happening, while the Indians at whom it's directed can't even explain to their white, North American colleagues what going on, much less why it's hurtful.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:06 PM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
Oh, Giridharadas's piece is definitely about deliberate slights. In the comments you're alluding to, I also hear that laziness and inertia serve to reinforce and cover for those slights. That is, common and simple mispronunciation provides a handy place to hide for assholes who dispronounce on purpose.
Yesterday I heard a piece about how caste discrimination in American workplaces is invisible to the Americans, but obvious among the South Asians. The Americans simply don't even know it's happening, while the Indians at whom it's directed can't even explain to their white, North American colleagues what going on, much less why it's hurtful.
posted by wenestvedt at 12:06 PM on October 20, 2020 [4 favorites]
You know, maybe my earlier comment is part of the problem. However, it may also be a way of trying to relate to the author and share an adjacent if not completely parallel experience. I didn't mention the racism that the author is mentioning because I thought it was fairly obvious, and didn't have an experience to relate to in that regard.
I get that it's a pretty natural urge to try and find common ground in conversation, but like if I'm talking about how bad shingles hurt, telling me about that one time you had rash when you switched laundry detergent isn't really making me feel like you're actually listening.
Sometimes the best way to make someone feel heard and included is to just say "yeah, I hear you, that's terrible," and keep the focus on their pain.
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:32 PM on October 20, 2020 [13 favorites]
I get that it's a pretty natural urge to try and find common ground in conversation, but like if I'm talking about how bad shingles hurt, telling me about that one time you had rash when you switched laundry detergent isn't really making me feel like you're actually listening.
Sometimes the best way to make someone feel heard and included is to just say "yeah, I hear you, that's terrible," and keep the focus on their pain.
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:32 PM on October 20, 2020 [13 favorites]
There's a thin green lining to this which is that Ossoff hauled in a couple million bucks after Perdue's speech, and they are now in a veritable toss-up race.
posted by Chickenring at 12:54 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Chickenring at 12:54 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think this is a great tangible thing white folks can help train each other on, because growing up in a super white town, I definitely was once the person who would have done the "aw shucks, it's just too hard for me" and it would have been INTENDED as a "I am self deprecating in embarrassment that I can't say this", but intent doesn't matter. If you hear other white people do this, or if you're a white person getting involved in inclusion work at your workplace, bring this up as a way that we center white people's feelings!
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:46 PM on October 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:46 PM on October 20, 2020 [6 favorites]
Thank you for posting this, it's a great piece and I think "dispronunciation" is an incredibly valuable neologism that I hope becomes a standard.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 1:54 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by kitten kaboodle at 1:54 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
The place I work recently adopted a "personal pronouns in email sig files" policy, and there is now a "name pronunciation guide in email sigs/intranet directory entry" under consideration.
posted by Gorgik at 1:54 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Gorgik at 1:54 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
Mispronunciation is a matter of limited tongues. Dispronunciation is a matter of limited hearts.
So true that. I try to pronounce non-English names correctly, often to the amusement of their bearers. In my experience it is nothing to be compared to what my name presents to native Japanese My heart always goes out to them when they struggle with it.
posted by y2karl at 1:59 PM on October 20, 2020
So true that. I try to pronounce non-English names correctly, often to the amusement of their bearers. In my experience it is nothing to be compared to what my name presents to native Japanese My heart always goes out to them when they struggle with it.
posted by y2karl at 1:59 PM on October 20, 2020
There is the way this plays out in individual institutions.. I work in a PSI and it is *remarkably* complicated to finesse the backend of our student data systems to update for Preferred Name. I think a student should be able to easily identify this in their profile and that should travel through their dealings in the institution.. But no, not that simple.
It's a detail that sticks in my throat or craw, however you like it.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:59 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's a detail that sticks in my throat or craw, however you like it.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:59 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm a firm believer that the only "correct" way to pronounce someone's name is the way that they prefer it. Having grown up as an immigrant whose first name was constantly mispronounced, dispronounced and misgendered, I took it upon myself long ago to spell and pronounce my name in a way that's easier for North Americans to figure out. I do get irritated when someone insists on spelling or pronouncing it the "correct" way. It may be the textbook way, but it's not my way, and that should be respected.
posted by Crane Shot at 2:10 PM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
posted by Crane Shot at 2:10 PM on October 20, 2020 [9 favorites]
It wouldn't be okay no matter what Harris's first name was, but the Perdue incident one struck me as especially...egregious? or just dumb?...because there's isn't any cover at all for Perdue genuinely finding her name difficult to pronounce. If you see "Kamala" and think it might be "Kamalamalamala" (as opposed to one of these apparently genuine mispronunciations) doesn't that suggest that you just don't really know how to read? Does he he see the name "Camilla" and wonder if it's "Camillamillamilla"?
Of course Giridharadas is right that it's not mis- but dis-pronunciation, and that it's deliberate racist aggression. That his misreading is so implausible is just an extra level of stupid; like Perdue's "joke" fails even on its own terms.
posted by col_pogo at 2:17 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Of course Giridharadas is right that it's not mis- but dis-pronunciation, and that it's deliberate racist aggression. That his misreading is so implausible is just an extra level of stupid; like Perdue's "joke" fails even on its own terms.
posted by col_pogo at 2:17 PM on October 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Yes, mispronounciation ≠ dispronounciation is a super useful distinction to have. Thanks!
I am all for pronouncing peoples names correctly; but I think there is a natural limit created by the phonology of a person's native language beyond which it's not realistic to demand accuracy from those who haven't studied linguistics or foreign languages. I mean, for example, the front-rounded vowel /ü/ just doesn't exist in most forms of English, and it's very hard for English native speakers to hear or produce the sound. It seems to me unhappily utopian to be distressed when they can't. Same goes for the lovely gutteral consonants found in many languages, but not English. Also, some languages tolerate, for exampe, consonant clusters that other languages do not, or, conversely, permit certain sounds only in certain positions within words. Which limits what native speakers can and cannot hear or produce. The basic sound systems of the world languages overlap some but only some.
It does not seem to me that it should be in itself experienced as humiliating or demeaning to have available versions of one's name that are assimilated to fit within the ambient speakers' phonological horizons. Within the European sphere it is extremely common to have different versions of the 'same' name in different languages that sound different. Like the French 'Étienne' for the English 'Steven'. Same name, different sounds. Or check out the multitude of different realizations of what is realized in English as 'John'. It's the sort of pragmatic spirit that led to such diverse ways of expressing a single underlying abstract name that maybe should be applied to facilitate the disappearance of mispronounciation here and now.
posted by bertran at 3:46 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am all for pronouncing peoples names correctly; but I think there is a natural limit created by the phonology of a person's native language beyond which it's not realistic to demand accuracy from those who haven't studied linguistics or foreign languages. I mean, for example, the front-rounded vowel /ü/ just doesn't exist in most forms of English, and it's very hard for English native speakers to hear or produce the sound. It seems to me unhappily utopian to be distressed when they can't. Same goes for the lovely gutteral consonants found in many languages, but not English. Also, some languages tolerate, for exampe, consonant clusters that other languages do not, or, conversely, permit certain sounds only in certain positions within words. Which limits what native speakers can and cannot hear or produce. The basic sound systems of the world languages overlap some but only some.
It does not seem to me that it should be in itself experienced as humiliating or demeaning to have available versions of one's name that are assimilated to fit within the ambient speakers' phonological horizons. Within the European sphere it is extremely common to have different versions of the 'same' name in different languages that sound different. Like the French 'Étienne' for the English 'Steven'. Same name, different sounds. Or check out the multitude of different realizations of what is realized in English as 'John'. It's the sort of pragmatic spirit that led to such diverse ways of expressing a single underlying abstract name that maybe should be applied to facilitate the disappearance of mispronounciation here and now.
posted by bertran at 3:46 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
I’m a high school teacher and make a point of getting everyone’s name exactly right. Every year I get several students saying “Wow, Mr. Gnutron, you’re the only teacher that has ever pronounced/spelled my name correctly.” It’s just basic respect.
posted by gnutron at 4:06 PM on October 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by gnutron at 4:06 PM on October 20, 2020 [7 favorites]
People often pride themselves on pronouncing "Bach" correctly, which has a non-English sound. For that matter, anyone who's studied French or German can handle Mandarin yu.
But what's really baffling is why people have trouble with "Anand" or "Kamala", which fit English phonotactics just fine.
posted by zompist at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
But what's really baffling is why people have trouble with "Anand" or "Kamala", which fit English phonotactics just fine.
posted by zompist at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2020 [2 favorites]
It’s just basic respect.
Exactly. At least in my experience, you can tell when someone is trying-but-failing to say a name right, and when someone is being a dispronouncer, whether out of malice or just not caring.
It's a great article, thank you for posting.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:40 PM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
Exactly. At least in my experience, you can tell when someone is trying-but-failing to say a name right, and when someone is being a dispronouncer, whether out of malice or just not caring.
It's a great article, thank you for posting.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:40 PM on October 20, 2020 [3 favorites]
I am all for pronouncing peoples names correctly; but I think there is a natural limit created by the phonology of a person's native language beyond which it's not realistic to demand accuracy from those who haven't studied linguistics or foreign languages.
I don't know about others, but I have no real problem with people pronouncing my name in their own accent. That's not really mispronounciation or dispronouniciation, it's just that some people have accents! That's fine! Especially with my name, which is a noun that's often similar in many languages because the word for jasmine originated in my native language, I'm not going to be too fussed if people pronounce it however their language pronounces their word for the jasmine flower. This is when it's helpful to have the mis vs. dis distinction, because mispronounciation may well be the result of trying and failing, or being limited by your own native accent, but dispronounciation is actively being an asshole.
posted by yasaman at 6:04 PM on October 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
I don't know about others, but I have no real problem with people pronouncing my name in their own accent. That's not really mispronounciation or dispronouniciation, it's just that some people have accents! That's fine! Especially with my name, which is a noun that's often similar in many languages because the word for jasmine originated in my native language, I'm not going to be too fussed if people pronounce it however their language pronounces their word for the jasmine flower. This is when it's helpful to have the mis vs. dis distinction, because mispronounciation may well be the result of trying and failing, or being limited by your own native accent, but dispronounciation is actively being an asshole.
posted by yasaman at 6:04 PM on October 20, 2020 [8 favorites]
I must say I will be extremely surprised if the average American pronounces Hakeem Olajuwon correctly as Yoruba is a tonal language and the pitch of any given syllable is crucial. Like, this is definitely NOT how to pronounce Olajuwon.
As I'm a two-cultures person, mispronunciation doesn't bother me, I grew up hearing it all the time, also in the other direction which is Nigerian mispronunciation of English. Unfamiliar sound patterns are genuinely difficult to reproduce correctly, or even sometimes to hear, wherever you're from.
English people who are trying hard to reproduce my name will get the amount of syllables and the sound of the vowels correct but they will completely miss the tonal values that give the name its meaning as tones have no relevance to meaning in the languages they speak. They are likely not to hear the tones nor to pick up the correct stresses in the phrase that makes up my name, even after I've repeated them, because that's like a new concept; the social brain's not expecting quite so much of a crash course in a new way of understanding language during something as everyday as "Hi, what's your name?"
With friends, I will give the correct pronunciation of my name, listen to their attempts to get it right, and be ok with the approximation they come up with. With people who may need to speak to me once or twice and we won't be having any communication beyond small talk, I'll give them a short version with vowel sounds they won't have any trouble with. Guys, my own mother couldn't pronounce my name properly, nor the names of a couple of dearest lifelong friends. Not all sounds transfer easily from one language to another. There's tone and pitch as mentioned; nasalisation; different placement of the tongue when pronouncing certain consonants [t, t(h), tt, t(s)]; elision of certain consonants (l, r) - that's off the top of my head as a non-linguist.
Dispronounciation though! Of course, that is lazy, complacent, deliberate and spiteful. It is deliberately contemptuous and intended both to disrespect the culture of the person being mispronounced at and to imply that person is freakish and abnormal. And also as has been said, it is very middle school and ignorant (Bristol slang uses 'ignorant' to mean 'racist and offensive and so deliberately stupid they don't know any better' so it is a good term to use in this case.) But that was a good article. I too can't understand what is so hard about pronouncing Anand as he has described it, apart from some kind of willful pig-headed conventionality. But for the other half of the essay, which is particular to American experience, I wanted to give an alternative view. Diaspora and diasporic experiences are certainly not monolithic.
posted by glasseyes at 8:20 AM on October 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
As I'm a two-cultures person, mispronunciation doesn't bother me, I grew up hearing it all the time, also in the other direction which is Nigerian mispronunciation of English. Unfamiliar sound patterns are genuinely difficult to reproduce correctly, or even sometimes to hear, wherever you're from.
English people who are trying hard to reproduce my name will get the amount of syllables and the sound of the vowels correct but they will completely miss the tonal values that give the name its meaning as tones have no relevance to meaning in the languages they speak. They are likely not to hear the tones nor to pick up the correct stresses in the phrase that makes up my name, even after I've repeated them, because that's like a new concept; the social brain's not expecting quite so much of a crash course in a new way of understanding language during something as everyday as "Hi, what's your name?"
With friends, I will give the correct pronunciation of my name, listen to their attempts to get it right, and be ok with the approximation they come up with. With people who may need to speak to me once or twice and we won't be having any communication beyond small talk, I'll give them a short version with vowel sounds they won't have any trouble with. Guys, my own mother couldn't pronounce my name properly, nor the names of a couple of dearest lifelong friends. Not all sounds transfer easily from one language to another. There's tone and pitch as mentioned; nasalisation; different placement of the tongue when pronouncing certain consonants [t, t(h), tt, t(s)]; elision of certain consonants (l, r) - that's off the top of my head as a non-linguist.
Dispronounciation though! Of course, that is lazy, complacent, deliberate and spiteful. It is deliberately contemptuous and intended both to disrespect the culture of the person being mispronounced at and to imply that person is freakish and abnormal. And also as has been said, it is very middle school and ignorant (Bristol slang uses 'ignorant' to mean 'racist and offensive and so deliberately stupid they don't know any better' so it is a good term to use in this case.) But that was a good article. I too can't understand what is so hard about pronouncing Anand as he has described it, apart from some kind of willful pig-headed conventionality. But for the other half of the essay, which is particular to American experience, I wanted to give an alternative view. Diaspora and diasporic experiences are certainly not monolithic.
posted by glasseyes at 8:20 AM on October 21, 2020 [10 favorites]
Also imo Danaerys may be a made-up and thus completely unfamiliar name, but the stresses in the name are exactly where an English speaker would expect them to be given that combination of letters, so it's neither difficult to say nor to remember.
Supposing Aragorn was pronounced a-RAH-gorn, nobody would get it right unless and until they were trying really hard. (And I think I remember Tolkien intended it should be pronounced a-RAH-gorn like other Gondorian 3-syllable names such as Isildur and Eärendil? maybe Eärendil is a 4-syllable name i dunno)
To end with a serious point, where the stress falls on the names's different syllables may present another unfamiliarity people struggle to get their tongues round. I do very much agree with wenestvedt that common and simple mispronunciation provides a handy place to hide for assholes who dispronounce on purpose. And I also very much agree with bertran, there is a natural limit created by the phonology of a person's native language beyond which it's not realistic to demand accuracy ... It does not seem to me that it should be in itself experienced as humiliating or demeaning to have available versions of one's name that are assimilated to fit within the ambient speakers' phonological horizons
posted by glasseyes at 9:31 AM on October 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
Supposing Aragorn was pronounced a-RAH-gorn, nobody would get it right unless and until they were trying really hard. (And I think I remember Tolkien intended it should be pronounced a-RAH-gorn like other Gondorian 3-syllable names such as Isildur and Eärendil? maybe Eärendil is a 4-syllable name i dunno)
To end with a serious point, where the stress falls on the names's different syllables may present another unfamiliarity people struggle to get their tongues round. I do very much agree with wenestvedt that common and simple mispronunciation provides a handy place to hide for assholes who dispronounce on purpose. And I also very much agree with bertran, there is a natural limit created by the phonology of a person's native language beyond which it's not realistic to demand accuracy ... It does not seem to me that it should be in itself experienced as humiliating or demeaning to have available versions of one's name that are assimilated to fit within the ambient speakers' phonological horizons
posted by glasseyes at 9:31 AM on October 21, 2020 [4 favorites]
I think there are three different types of (generally white) folks being described here:
1- people who deliberately dispronounce to be racist or xenophobic
2-people who genuinely mispronounce and try to /want to do better
3-people who mispronounce but still treat it as the name-haver's job to accommodate their discomfort at having to deal with a "weird name."
1 is obviously problematic. 2 I think most people are willing to work with and of course understand that phonology etc may be limited. 3 is problematic because 3's often try to pretend 2 and 3 are the same category of "I just don't know how to pronounce it!", but 3 still perpetuates racism through the regular micro aggressions of "your name is so foreign it's not even worth trying to learn."
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:56 AM on October 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
1- people who deliberately dispronounce to be racist or xenophobic
2-people who genuinely mispronounce and try to /want to do better
3-people who mispronounce but still treat it as the name-haver's job to accommodate their discomfort at having to deal with a "weird name."
1 is obviously problematic. 2 I think most people are willing to work with and of course understand that phonology etc may be limited. 3 is problematic because 3's often try to pretend 2 and 3 are the same category of "I just don't know how to pronounce it!", but 3 still perpetuates racism through the regular micro aggressions of "your name is so foreign it's not even worth trying to learn."
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:56 AM on October 21, 2020 [1 favorite]
only took a year and some change for the discussion to happen here after this shit show where white folk on this site decided to talk over a desi member raising this very issue.
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:07 AM on November 2, 2020
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:07 AM on November 2, 2020
only took a year and some change for the discussion to happen here after this shit show where white folk on this site decided to talk over a desi member raising this very issue.
Thanks for citing that. I'd kind of forgotten about that whole kerfuffle (or at least mentally set it aside), because while it's representative of the kind of nonsense those of us with these "name issues" occasionally have to deal with (and which Giridharadas touches upon), it gets exhausting sometimes, and you just let it go. You shouldn't, but you do.
(I had forgotten who it was I'd gotten into the little tussle with, and re-reading the thread now, it surprises me slightly to see that it's someone prominent enough on this site that a certain panic level is named for them. Kind of sucks when it's someone that visible, and not just another random mostly-lurker like myself. Also, I’d be happy to point that individual to the POC thread, where I get into exactly why it pissed me off, etc., if they care to ask. They haven’t in the last year, so I kinda figure that’s my answer.)
posted by CommonSense at 8:24 AM on November 2, 2020
Thanks for citing that. I'd kind of forgotten about that whole kerfuffle (or at least mentally set it aside), because while it's representative of the kind of nonsense those of us with these "name issues" occasionally have to deal with (and which Giridharadas touches upon), it gets exhausting sometimes, and you just let it go. You shouldn't, but you do.
(I had forgotten who it was I'd gotten into the little tussle with, and re-reading the thread now, it surprises me slightly to see that it's someone prominent enough on this site that a certain panic level is named for them. Kind of sucks when it's someone that visible, and not just another random mostly-lurker like myself. Also, I’d be happy to point that individual to the POC thread, where I get into exactly why it pissed me off, etc., if they care to ask. They haven’t in the last year, so I kinda figure that’s my answer.)
posted by CommonSense at 8:24 AM on November 2, 2020
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Oh my god, it’s like he’s writing about my life. I have an Iranian name that is, in my opinion, one of the most trivially easy to pronounce, and yet when I introduce myself people (John-Bob people! What a great term) will immediately mangle it right back to me.
I used to just accept a handful of the more common and more palatable mispronunciations but in a fit of self-righteousness after the 2016 elections I began insisting people pronounce it correctly. And the hostility I would get when I insisted that it be pronounced correctly was baffling, in one case leading to an HR complaint at my work against one lady who literally just refused to stop saying it incorrectly because she didn’t see what the big deal was.
Thanks for the post, ChuraChura! It’s satisfying to hear my own experiences articulated back to me so well.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 7:55 AM on October 20, 2020 [40 favorites]