What is the internet doing to our parents’ brains?
October 30, 2020 10:32 AM Subscribe
"While it’s true that older generations are more vulnerable to fake news in some ways, they are more resilient in others. Millions of millennials’ parents did not suddenly decide to slide into conspiracy-land. They are simply living in a country with more and better ways of pulling them there. "
The ability to be ignored may be a survival trait in the near future. Our ironic diffidence will save us. Whatever.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:53 AM on October 30, 2020 [88 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:53 AM on October 30, 2020 [88 favorites]
Burying the lede a bit...
The piece does a good job of detailing all the ways cognitive decline happens with age (and how modern social media supercharges it). After all, there are countless millions who believe this stuff without the added effects of drug abuse.
posted by Ouverture at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
The piece does a good job of detailing all the ways cognitive decline happens with age (and how modern social media supercharges it). After all, there are countless millions who believe this stuff without the added effects of drug abuse.
posted by Ouverture at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
Ah, another article ignoring the Xers...
Got your Xer right here:
“Suddenly my dad who had worked his whole life had nothing to do,” David said. “So this 52-year-old man who had never used a computer gets on YouTube. That’s when the algorithms got to work on him.”
posted by octothorpe at 11:00 AM on October 30, 2020 [20 favorites]
Got your Xer right here:
“Suddenly my dad who had worked his whole life had nothing to do,” David said. “So this 52-year-old man who had never used a computer gets on YouTube. That’s when the algorithms got to work on him.”
posted by octothorpe at 11:00 AM on October 30, 2020 [20 favorites]
In a 2019 survey, just 18% of Facebook users over 65 knew that the site used an algorithm to organize their feeds and deliver recommendations. Around one-third thought Facebook staffers were hand-picking stories according to their relevance and credibility.
W-o-w.
It also does a good job of describing the differences between how left-wing and right-wing media treat extremists, where Michael Moore can barely get on network tv and Rush Limbaugh gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
posted by box at 11:01 AM on October 30, 2020 [39 favorites]
W-o-w.
It also does a good job of describing the differences between how left-wing and right-wing media treat extremists, where Michael Moore can barely get on network tv and Rush Limbaugh gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
posted by box at 11:01 AM on October 30, 2020 [39 favorites]
My parents and I (very similar ages to the first case in the article) often wonder what makes them different — why they haven’t been sucked into the right-wing disinformation tornado. They’re shocked that so many others their age just buy right into all this obvious crap. Why can’t they see it for what it is?
I figure it’s often the people who were never very politically aware, so they are more likely to just take things at face value. They see something relatively innocuous that confirms a prejudice, interact with it, and then the social media algorithms feed them more and more propaganda that they aren’t politically-aware enough to treat with skepticism. The cases in the article seem to largely support that hypothesis.
posted by snowmentality at 11:01 AM on October 30, 2020 [17 favorites]
I figure it’s often the people who were never very politically aware, so they are more likely to just take things at face value. They see something relatively innocuous that confirms a prejudice, interact with it, and then the social media algorithms feed them more and more propaganda that they aren’t politically-aware enough to treat with skepticism. The cases in the article seem to largely support that hypothesis.
posted by snowmentality at 11:01 AM on October 30, 2020 [17 favorites]
Got your x-er right here:
It is so dislocating for me to recognize that millennials are nearly in their 40s and Gen X'ers are well in their 50s.
posted by Ouverture at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2020 [42 favorites]
It is so dislocating for me to recognize that millennials are nearly in their 40s and Gen X'ers are well in their 50s.
posted by Ouverture at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2020 [42 favorites]
As a young GenXer (41 apparently counts now?), I have observed that everyone I know who seems prone to magical conspiratorial thinking now, has been prone to it as long as I've known them. At the very least, the signs were there - superstitious woo, latent racism, knee-jerk status-quo rejection that is quite conservative within its parameters, etc. I still wonder if this is particularly new in type, however much it seems to be in public discourse. Maybe it's just who I know, but I don't know any freshly minted conspiracy types among the people my mother's age - just the same chuckleheads, with different ways of expressing their derangement.
Almost all of these people do also abuse substances, which does make me worry my own relationship with alcohol might end up being a problem for more than physical health reasons.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
Almost all of these people do also abuse substances, which does make me worry my own relationship with alcohol might end up being a problem for more than physical health reasons.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
Got your x-er right here:
(perks up)
“Suddenly my dad who had worked his whole life had nothing to do... So this 52-year-old man..."
(slumps)
53 here. I can't imagine ever retiring, much less a year ago.
posted by doctornemo at 11:05 AM on October 30, 2020 [69 favorites]
(perks up)
“Suddenly my dad who had worked his whole life had nothing to do... So this 52-year-old man..."
(slumps)
53 here. I can't imagine ever retiring, much less a year ago.
posted by doctornemo at 11:05 AM on October 30, 2020 [69 favorites]
It is so dislocating for me to recognize that millennials are nearly in their 40s and Gen X'ers are well in their 50s.
I'm on the cusp between Boomer and Xer and I'm 56 this year. Me and Keanu and Courtney Cox and um, Boris Johnson.
posted by octothorpe at 11:07 AM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
I'm on the cusp between Boomer and Xer and I'm 56 this year. Me and Keanu and Courtney Cox and um, Boris Johnson.
posted by octothorpe at 11:07 AM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
Man octothorpe, your quarantine house sounds... interesting
posted by q*ben at 11:09 AM on October 30, 2020 [71 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 11:09 AM on October 30, 2020 [71 favorites]
Social media may also prey on stress and anxiety. Ben, an epidemiologist in Chicago, has watched his mother transform over the last three years. She has always been conservative, but spent most of her life indifferent to politics and most of 2016 revolted by Trump. Her life was defined by her Christian faith and Ben spent years helping her come to grips with his homosexuality.
But then her parents moved in.
“They were elderly, hyper-religious and very ill,” Ben said. His mother quit her corporate job to take care of them. “She was stressed out and had nothing to do except use Facebook all day.”
After they died, Ben saw his mother, who lives in Seattle, join church-based groups, then right-wing groups. She started sharing memes about how God was working through Trump. Soon, she was trolling left-wing politicians.
posted by Brian B. at 11:10 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
But then her parents moved in.
“They were elderly, hyper-religious and very ill,” Ben said. His mother quit her corporate job to take care of them. “She was stressed out and had nothing to do except use Facebook all day.”
After they died, Ben saw his mother, who lives in Seattle, join church-based groups, then right-wing groups. She started sharing memes about how God was working through Trump. Soon, she was trolling left-wing politicians.
posted by Brian B. at 11:10 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
It also does a good job of describing the differences between how left-wing and right-wing media treat extremists, where Michael Moore can barely get on network tv and Rush Limbaugh gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Yeah, there are a lot of interesting-to-terrifying structural and individual differences in terms of leftist, liberal, and conservative ideology that lead to such different trends and outcomes for conspiratorial thinking.
I have always felt uncomfortable with the idea that leftists and liberals are "smarter" than conservatives and that's why leftists and liberals don't get so easily snookered into misinformation. Instead, I think a more important factor is that if it takes capital to build a gigantic conspiracy theory hyperobject, then the people who are anti-capitalist obviously are going to have trouble doing just that.
Additionally, leftists and liberals are less likely to be drawn to the demonization of marginalized groups that is often an accelerant for misinformation.
posted by Ouverture at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2020 [24 favorites]
Yeah, there are a lot of interesting-to-terrifying structural and individual differences in terms of leftist, liberal, and conservative ideology that lead to such different trends and outcomes for conspiratorial thinking.
I have always felt uncomfortable with the idea that leftists and liberals are "smarter" than conservatives and that's why leftists and liberals don't get so easily snookered into misinformation. Instead, I think a more important factor is that if it takes capital to build a gigantic conspiracy theory hyperobject, then the people who are anti-capitalist obviously are going to have trouble doing just that.
Additionally, leftists and liberals are less likely to be drawn to the demonization of marginalized groups that is often an accelerant for misinformation.
posted by Ouverture at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2020 [24 favorites]
Let's not forget lead poisoning from all the gas fumes boomers inhaled. That shit makes you stupider and angrier and a lot of people didn't have far to go to just be stupid and angry all the time.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2020 [31 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2020 [31 favorites]
It also does a good job of describing the differences between how left-wing and right-wing media treat extremists, where Michael Moore can barely get on network tv and Rush Limbaugh gets the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
This might have something to do with the fact that left-wing extremists are usually asking for things that will cost corporations money, like a living wage or universal healthcare. (Which will turn into higher taxes on the corporations in question.)
Right wing extremists don't just not ask for things that cost money, they actually ask for things that help those corporations make money.
So a big part of the reason you see more conservative extremists is because they're happy to exploit people for profit, whereas left-wing extremists are usually asking for the violence to stop and for humans to be treated with dignity, healthcare, and free time.
It always, always comes back to profit. Companies didn't start hiring POC and LGBT+ because they loved those groups and wanted to help them, it's because they realized they were letting star workers that could make them a lot of money not work for them. It has nothing to do with supporting those groups and everything to do with maximizing the number of workers available, which in turn pushes wages down. Accepting people who weren't cishet white males was never about giving a shit, it was about profit.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2020 [41 favorites]
This might have something to do with the fact that left-wing extremists are usually asking for things that will cost corporations money, like a living wage or universal healthcare. (Which will turn into higher taxes on the corporations in question.)
Right wing extremists don't just not ask for things that cost money, they actually ask for things that help those corporations make money.
So a big part of the reason you see more conservative extremists is because they're happy to exploit people for profit, whereas left-wing extremists are usually asking for the violence to stop and for humans to be treated with dignity, healthcare, and free time.
It always, always comes back to profit. Companies didn't start hiring POC and LGBT+ because they loved those groups and wanted to help them, it's because they realized they were letting star workers that could make them a lot of money not work for them. It has nothing to do with supporting those groups and everything to do with maximizing the number of workers available, which in turn pushes wages down. Accepting people who weren't cishet white males was never about giving a shit, it was about profit.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2020 [41 favorites]
I can't imagine retiring...because 2008.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:16 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 11:16 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
I can't imagine having nothing to do but sit online... because 2008.
Most of us will be working until we are dead. At least we won't have the luxury of time to be exposed to so much misinformation.
Also, my mother is a good example of this: She is Christian, and has been somewhat conservative at many points in her life. But she has struggled and worked manual labor and has not become "successful" and she has very little time to herself. She definitely never got sucked into the Facebook stuff because she literally didn't have time, because she has been too busy working. Her extended family (brothers, sisters) are all Trump supporters, and she is very disappointed with them.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
Most of us will be working until we are dead. At least we won't have the luxury of time to be exposed to so much misinformation.
Also, my mother is a good example of this: She is Christian, and has been somewhat conservative at many points in her life. But she has struggled and worked manual labor and has not become "successful" and she has very little time to herself. She definitely never got sucked into the Facebook stuff because she literally didn't have time, because she has been too busy working. Her extended family (brothers, sisters) are all Trump supporters, and she is very disappointed with them.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
Someone retiring at 52 makes me think that he was in the military or maybe a cop.
posted by octothorpe at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
It is so dislocating for me to recognize that millennials are nearly in their 40s and Gen X'ers are well in their 50s.
Many Gen Xers are in their mid/late 40s too.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:38 AM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
So grateful that my (retired Boomer) parents barely use the internet for anything but weather forecasts and sports scores.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:39 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:39 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
Most of us will be working until we are dead.
Ha ha, joke's (will be) on you, just wait until ageism. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an actual conspiracy.
posted by sammyo at 11:40 AM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
Ha ha, joke's (will be) on you, just wait until ageism. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's an actual conspiracy.
posted by sammyo at 11:40 AM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
Last time I was over at my mom's house (76, silent generation) she pointed at the floor and asked me if I wanted a go at stomping on her Trump voodoo doll. She has much more of a social life than I do, and now she's on Zoom and Discord all day with her steampunk friends.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 11:43 AM on October 30, 2020 [85 favorites]
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 11:43 AM on October 30, 2020 [85 favorites]
Let's not forget lead poisoning from all the gas fumes boomers inhaled.
Leaded wasn't banned until after Bill Clinton was selected to a second term. The so called millennials were already in the 8th grade.
posted by sideshow at 11:45 AM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
Leaded wasn't banned until after Bill Clinton was selected to a second term. The so called millennials were already in the 8th grade.
posted by sideshow at 11:45 AM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
I'm happy that all the boomers and older in my immediate family have escaped this trap. My Brothers-in-law are both in their late 70s but are both Bernie supporters and there isn't a single Republican anywhere in the family.
posted by octothorpe at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
I have always felt uncomfortable with the idea that leftists and liberals are "smarter" than conservatives and that's why leftists and liberals don't get so easily snookered into misinformation.
Me too. And in fact I do see signs of counterfactual, conspiracy-oriented thinking among some on the left. For example, there's a whole swath of leftists who insist that the DNC somehow rigged the primaries against Bernie to install Biden as the nominee. When you explain to these people that no, actually, Biden was the front-runner pretty much the whole time, and he won because traditional Dem constituencies -- especially older black voters -- overwhelmingly supported him, they scoff. Their fact-free, situationally convenient cynicism about election outcomes is really no different from that of Trump and his followers.
Fortunately, I think this is a relatively small (if vocal, and overrepresented on social media) faction of the left. Most Bernie supporters are voting for Biden (as Bernie himself has been telling them to). In contrast, on the right, this kind of mindset now seems to predominate.
--Adding: This seems to be mostly young people -- people who, for instance, think that it's "rigging" a primary when candidates drop out and endorse other candidates, because they don't realize this happens in pretty much every election cycle. So, not a boomer thing, so much.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:48 AM on October 30, 2020 [26 favorites]
Me too. And in fact I do see signs of counterfactual, conspiracy-oriented thinking among some on the left. For example, there's a whole swath of leftists who insist that the DNC somehow rigged the primaries against Bernie to install Biden as the nominee. When you explain to these people that no, actually, Biden was the front-runner pretty much the whole time, and he won because traditional Dem constituencies -- especially older black voters -- overwhelmingly supported him, they scoff. Their fact-free, situationally convenient cynicism about election outcomes is really no different from that of Trump and his followers.
Fortunately, I think this is a relatively small (if vocal, and overrepresented on social media) faction of the left. Most Bernie supporters are voting for Biden (as Bernie himself has been telling them to). In contrast, on the right, this kind of mindset now seems to predominate.
--Adding: This seems to be mostly young people -- people who, for instance, think that it's "rigging" a primary when candidates drop out and endorse other candidates, because they don't realize this happens in pretty much every election cycle. So, not a boomer thing, so much.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:48 AM on October 30, 2020 [26 favorites]
Now, consider what posts would be like, if facebook/twitter existed during JFK's regime?
(All the crazy is in print, in libraries)
posted by sammyo at 11:48 AM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
(All the crazy is in print, in libraries)
posted by sammyo at 11:48 AM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
Now, consider what posts would be like, if facebook/twitter existed during JFK's regime?
(All the crazy is in print, in libraries)
That's exactly what the Illuminatus! trilogy is. Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea were working at Playboy magazine and received massive amounts of paranoid conspiracy mail, and wrote a novel with the premise that "all these nuts are right, and every single conspiracy they complain about really exists".
posted by Tom-B at 11:59 AM on October 30, 2020 [24 favorites]
(All the crazy is in print, in libraries)
That's exactly what the Illuminatus! trilogy is. Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea were working at Playboy magazine and received massive amounts of paranoid conspiracy mail, and wrote a novel with the premise that "all these nuts are right, and every single conspiracy they complain about really exists".
posted by Tom-B at 11:59 AM on October 30, 2020 [24 favorites]
So I googled 'age breakdown of trump supporters' and the first result I got was this. Looking at the first graph, age isn't jumping out at me as the primary source of Trump support. It seems to me that education and gender is what separates the sides. My opinion is the result of 30 seconds of research so may be totally wrong.
posted by night_train at 12:07 PM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by night_train at 12:07 PM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
Yep, the conspiracy-minded had to hand type letters to editors of magazines back then and hope that maybe one or two people would read it. Now they plug into social media and their garbage is read and shared by thousands, if not more.
I'm sure magazine editors all around the world received piles of that stuff and mostly discarded it. Makes me wonder just how much time on those jobs was spent looking through reams of mail. Shea and Wilson had the clever idea to make something out of it. Illuminatus! is certainly dated, but that's the point. If it wasn't dated, it wouldn't be Illuminatus! It's definitely worth reading. It's paranoid sci-fi/fantasy/hippie/weirdo fiction and it played (perhaps too large) a part of my formative teen years in the 1980s. I read them cover to cover several times. Fnord.
posted by SoberHighland at 12:11 PM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
I'm sure magazine editors all around the world received piles of that stuff and mostly discarded it. Makes me wonder just how much time on those jobs was spent looking through reams of mail. Shea and Wilson had the clever idea to make something out of it. Illuminatus! is certainly dated, but that's the point. If it wasn't dated, it wouldn't be Illuminatus! It's definitely worth reading. It's paranoid sci-fi/fantasy/hippie/weirdo fiction and it played (perhaps too large) a part of my formative teen years in the 1980s. I read them cover to cover several times. Fnord.
posted by SoberHighland at 12:11 PM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
This seems like a qualitative answer to a quantitative question. I'm not sure I'm up for reading a hundred papers in a field I know nothing about. But, "more likely" isn't really enough.
I hear people rail against boomers. But, my very narrow personal experience makes that hard to understand. My working class, white, American parents have moved significantly to the left in the last few years. My mom voted for Reagan four times, while dating women and visiting food banks. I still don't understand why. She sprays colloidal silver on her dogs' injuries. (So far, without any visible harm.) My dad has both more miracle-thinking psuedoscience self help books and more guns than I have single-board computers. They're both enthusiastically voting against trump, as are their partners. The only conspiracy-theory folks I know in real life are forty year olds who I went to high-school with and former neighbors my age.
I've been to three local QAnon rallies. (Never as as participant, and once accidentally.) They were half people who I'd guess were not white, more than half people under 40, and 75% women. Maybe that's 'cause I'm in a big city. But, it was surprising. I want to believe this is the death gasp of alienated, angry old white folks. I'm not at all sure that's true.
posted by eotvos at 12:23 PM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
I hear people rail against boomers. But, my very narrow personal experience makes that hard to understand. My working class, white, American parents have moved significantly to the left in the last few years. My mom voted for Reagan four times, while dating women and visiting food banks. I still don't understand why. She sprays colloidal silver on her dogs' injuries. (So far, without any visible harm.) My dad has both more miracle-thinking psuedoscience self help books and more guns than I have single-board computers. They're both enthusiastically voting against trump, as are their partners. The only conspiracy-theory folks I know in real life are forty year olds who I went to high-school with and former neighbors my age.
I've been to three local QAnon rallies. (Never as as participant, and once accidentally.) They were half people who I'd guess were not white, more than half people under 40, and 75% women. Maybe that's 'cause I'm in a big city. But, it was surprising. I want to believe this is the death gasp of alienated, angry old white folks. I'm not at all sure that's true.
posted by eotvos at 12:23 PM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer" is a good read. Pretty much all of his historical analysis is hopelessly and obviously flawed. But he is a very keen observer of individual psychology. I think a lot of his observations about the forces that may lead people to join mass movements also apply to conspiratorial belief.
I also think the social defeat hypothesis for schizophrenia is interesting to think about in the context of the kind of apparent mental impairment that some conspiracy theorists have, although I don't know how strong the evidence is for it currently.
posted by vogon_poet at 12:30 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
I also think the social defeat hypothesis for schizophrenia is interesting to think about in the context of the kind of apparent mental impairment that some conspiracy theorists have, although I don't know how strong the evidence is for it currently.
posted by vogon_poet at 12:30 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
As someone who spent all of high school from 98 to 02 getting picked up from school by my dad and then being trapped in the car with him listening to Rush Limbaugh every goddamned school day, I continue to be absolutely astonished by his face turn later in life.
I'd like to think that my being both queer and trans helped him reevaluate his "ride or die for the Republicans, even when it prevents you from winning local office at a level where parties don't really matter" attitude. But I legitimately don't know.
Both my parents spent my whole childhood being primed for 2020 nonsense, and then they just... didn't. I wish I knew what made the take a sudden leap to the sensible - I would share it with everyone I knew.
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 12:32 PM on October 30, 2020 [43 favorites]
I'd like to think that my being both queer and trans helped him reevaluate his "ride or die for the Republicans, even when it prevents you from winning local office at a level where parties don't really matter" attitude. But I legitimately don't know.
Both my parents spent my whole childhood being primed for 2020 nonsense, and then they just... didn't. I wish I knew what made the take a sudden leap to the sensible - I would share it with everyone I knew.
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 12:32 PM on October 30, 2020 [43 favorites]
I don't worry much about the Fox news/talk radio because my Baby Boomer parents are not big media consumers.
I do pay close attention to the scam call/letter/email trends though.
My parents are of the age where they believe if you know some basic information about them (birthday, etc) then you must be legit.
Thankfully they are both fairly, let's charitably say frugal, and are unlikely to send large amounts of money to anyone.
posted by madajb at 12:38 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
I do pay close attention to the scam call/letter/email trends though.
My parents are of the age where they believe if you know some basic information about them (birthday, etc) then you must be legit.
Thankfully they are both fairly, let's charitably say frugal, and are unlikely to send large amounts of money to anyone.
posted by madajb at 12:38 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
My dad (born 1941) sent my brothers and me an email today. He suggested we google "Tenacious D" and watch the videos. Apparently, he somehow heard about Tenacious D —today— and was entertained by the stuff he found. This is more of a cute story than what's in the article, but I thought I'd mention it.
My folks were very late comers to Facebook, and ended up deleting their account only a couple years later when all the nasty stuff was coming to light. I'm proud to say my folks have very little trust in the Internet. My dad Googles things once in a while and uses Wikipedia from time to time. Just saying that individuals in certain age brackets do not necessarily follow certain behaviors. Oh, and my folks detest the Trump administration with the heat of a white hot sun. And they were the opposite of hippies back in the 60s-70s.
posted by SoberHighland at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
My folks were very late comers to Facebook, and ended up deleting their account only a couple years later when all the nasty stuff was coming to light. I'm proud to say my folks have very little trust in the Internet. My dad Googles things once in a while and uses Wikipedia from time to time. Just saying that individuals in certain age brackets do not necessarily follow certain behaviors. Oh, and my folks detest the Trump administration with the heat of a white hot sun. And they were the opposite of hippies back in the 60s-70s.
posted by SoberHighland at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
Me too. And in fact I do see signs of counterfactual, conspiracy-oriented thinking among some on the left. For example, there's a whole swath of leftists who insist that the DNC somehow rigged the primaries against Bernie to install Biden as the nominee. When you explain to these people that no, actually, Biden was the front-runner pretty much the whole time, and he won because traditional Dem constituencies -- especially older black voters -- overwhelmingly supported him, they scoff. Their fact-free, situationally convenient cynicism about election outcomes is really no different from that of Trump and his followers.
Yes, there isn't any sort of absolute immunity conferred by a specific ideology or party identification. Leftists are also operating under the added (and justified) paranoia brought upon by COINTELPRO and decades of the CIA being, well, the CIA. You don't need to make shit up when reality is so terrifying.
But you know what dominates conversation among leftists and, to a lesser degree, liberals? How to get people healthcare and liberation from oppression. Conservative conversation tends to be dominated by resentment and fear of losing what they enjoy to outgroups.
posted by Ouverture at 12:41 PM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
Yes, there isn't any sort of absolute immunity conferred by a specific ideology or party identification. Leftists are also operating under the added (and justified) paranoia brought upon by COINTELPRO and decades of the CIA being, well, the CIA. You don't need to make shit up when reality is so terrifying.
But you know what dominates conversation among leftists and, to a lesser degree, liberals? How to get people healthcare and liberation from oppression. Conservative conversation tends to be dominated by resentment and fear of losing what they enjoy to outgroups.
posted by Ouverture at 12:41 PM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
I'd like to add tv to the mix.
If we're talking about people aged (say) 50 on up, that's a big demographic united by having been immersed in television for most or all of their lives. A lot of media training went on through the 20th century, and shifting from the tube to laptop/phone/desktop/tablet didn't magically erase those habits.
For example, looking to media for outrage and fear is something tv news has practiced for decades, honing its own version of American Gothic to a fine edge. It's easy to move from cable news shouting about the criminal menace to joining a Facebook group on the same.
posted by doctornemo at 12:45 PM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
If we're talking about people aged (say) 50 on up, that's a big demographic united by having been immersed in television for most or all of their lives. A lot of media training went on through the 20th century, and shifting from the tube to laptop/phone/desktop/tablet didn't magically erase those habits.
For example, looking to media for outrage and fear is something tv news has practiced for decades, honing its own version of American Gothic to a fine edge. It's easy to move from cable news shouting about the criminal menace to joining a Facebook group on the same.
posted by doctornemo at 12:45 PM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
FTA:“It’s not their fault,” he said. “They just grew up in a time when it was easier to believe things you read.”
No. It IS their fault. They are adults, and whatever age they are, not ALL of them are rampant bigots, so that's proof that 'the time they grew up in' isn't insurmountable. I'll cut slack to those poor folks that are legitimately struggling with coherent thought due to dementia or other diseases. But my mom is 87 and was a staunch Republican for many years. If she can wake up and put her foot down, anyone can. If they don't, it's because they like thinking the things they grew up with (POC are inferior, women's place is havin babies, etc) more than they like thinking about the truth.
posted by The otter lady at 12:45 PM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
No. It IS their fault. They are adults, and whatever age they are, not ALL of them are rampant bigots, so that's proof that 'the time they grew up in' isn't insurmountable. I'll cut slack to those poor folks that are legitimately struggling with coherent thought due to dementia or other diseases. But my mom is 87 and was a staunch Republican for many years. If she can wake up and put her foot down, anyone can. If they don't, it's because they like thinking the things they grew up with (POC are inferior, women's place is havin babies, etc) more than they like thinking about the truth.
posted by The otter lady at 12:45 PM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
Sometimes I stop and just appreciate the full scope of the absurdity. It is almost a meditation, except there is no insight, only horror and bemusement. Irony, at best. I am of course describing my generation's experience of growing up with the internet being a wondrous place full of psychedelic utopianism that we explored with such optimism while being told by our parents to not take anything we read there at face value.
Not all of us became more critical readers and better navigators of the ever-rising sea of propaganda that is the contemporary internet as a result of this experience, but many of us did. And now our parents - those very same people who told us to question everything and do thorough research through reliable sources - are spewing the most asinine, frankly stupid conspiracy theories humanity has ever concocted back at us because they read it on Facebook or Twitter or Reddit.
It is mindblowing. It is a Moebius strip of engagement-to-ignorance or optimism-to-despair.
posted by Lonnrot at 1:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [18 favorites]
Not all of us became more critical readers and better navigators of the ever-rising sea of propaganda that is the contemporary internet as a result of this experience, but many of us did. And now our parents - those very same people who told us to question everything and do thorough research through reliable sources - are spewing the most asinine, frankly stupid conspiracy theories humanity has ever concocted back at us because they read it on Facebook or Twitter or Reddit.
It is mindblowing. It is a Moebius strip of engagement-to-ignorance or optimism-to-despair.
posted by Lonnrot at 1:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [18 favorites]
I think that people who came of age when the Fairness Doctrine was a thing are uniquely vulnerable to misinformation from what used to be a trustworthy-within-certain-parameters tv news industry. Boomers had their Dan Rathers and Walter Cronkites, but Gen-Xers grew up in a time when a lot of children's television was just straight-up half-hour toy commercials, and anybody younger than that has always lived in a world where people on tv lie to you all the time.
(I also think that getting rid of the Fairness Doctrine is among the biggest and most damaging parts of Ronald Reagan's legacy.)
posted by box at 1:04 PM on October 30, 2020 [44 favorites]
(I also think that getting rid of the Fairness Doctrine is among the biggest and most damaging parts of Ronald Reagan's legacy.)
posted by box at 1:04 PM on October 30, 2020 [44 favorites]
I just don't know how any self respecting GenX er can have gone through Regan and Bush I and watched the S&L, Iran-Contra and a Gulf War Part I, then Bush II with 911, Saddam Hussein in Daddy's War part 2, more wars that have lasted longer than the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and the stock market crash... AND STILL THINK:
HEY - THESE REPUBLICANS HAVE SOME IDEAS!
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:09 PM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
HEY - THESE REPUBLICANS HAVE SOME IDEAS!
posted by Nanukthedog at 1:09 PM on October 30, 2020 [28 favorites]
Around one-third thought Facebook staffers were hand-picking stories according to their relevance and credibility.
This is a huge general "computer" problem with my 72-year-old mother (who I told not to use Facebook or she'd start getting more spam phone calls, which will ensure she never darkens its doors), who just does not understand that there's not a (well-meaning!) person (paid acceptably well to be) on the other end of the processes.
She's fairly savvy to spam phone calls and bullshit door-to-door sales, but absolutely anything her computer does - anything that pops up or shows up on the screen, in particular; email to her is the same as the phone so she doesn't fall for those - is being sent to her in real time by a person who gives a shit. I constantly have to reinforce that there is no "helpdesk", nobody's looking at her screen and deciding to tell her to update something or sign up for a thing. Her decade-older neighbor with dementia came over crying one night because there were "sirens" on her computer, and mom went over there and got all the way through helping the nice man from Windows remote into it and only got suspicious when he asked for a credit card number to get the "15 hackers" out of the computer. She figures she paid a lot of money for a computer, there's a person at Windows taking care of it, and it damn well ought to be free.
I've tried explaining how to tell the difference between well-sourced information and crap. She used to work in newspaper production, she knows what the rules of journalism are (and what the rules of advertising used to be), but she believes the computer completely in the same way I believed the TV completely when I was 5. She has good discretion filters for television information - from knowing when DIY shows are faking shit to mostly being able to tell when the TV news is being alarmist - and just very little for something on a laptop or monitor screen. And she's mostly always been like this, in part because when she first used modern computers as a professional adult, there WAS a helpdesk and there was NOT a lot of competition for attention or money coming from the computer.
I get nervous about myself every time a technology evolves that I don't immediately "get" like I did from the 80s through the past few years. Like, how far off am I from badly using and not getting something The Kids like to the point that I think I'm receiving real information that is clearly fake to other users. At what point does my brain start doing what my parents' brains did when the internet happened?
posted by Lyn Never at 1:14 PM on October 30, 2020 [50 favorites]
This is a huge general "computer" problem with my 72-year-old mother (who I told not to use Facebook or she'd start getting more spam phone calls, which will ensure she never darkens its doors), who just does not understand that there's not a (well-meaning!) person (paid acceptably well to be) on the other end of the processes.
She's fairly savvy to spam phone calls and bullshit door-to-door sales, but absolutely anything her computer does - anything that pops up or shows up on the screen, in particular; email to her is the same as the phone so she doesn't fall for those - is being sent to her in real time by a person who gives a shit. I constantly have to reinforce that there is no "helpdesk", nobody's looking at her screen and deciding to tell her to update something or sign up for a thing. Her decade-older neighbor with dementia came over crying one night because there were "sirens" on her computer, and mom went over there and got all the way through helping the nice man from Windows remote into it and only got suspicious when he asked for a credit card number to get the "15 hackers" out of the computer. She figures she paid a lot of money for a computer, there's a person at Windows taking care of it, and it damn well ought to be free.
I've tried explaining how to tell the difference between well-sourced information and crap. She used to work in newspaper production, she knows what the rules of journalism are (and what the rules of advertising used to be), but she believes the computer completely in the same way I believed the TV completely when I was 5. She has good discretion filters for television information - from knowing when DIY shows are faking shit to mostly being able to tell when the TV news is being alarmist - and just very little for something on a laptop or monitor screen. And she's mostly always been like this, in part because when she first used modern computers as a professional adult, there WAS a helpdesk and there was NOT a lot of competition for attention or money coming from the computer.
I get nervous about myself every time a technology evolves that I don't immediately "get" like I did from the 80s through the past few years. Like, how far off am I from badly using and not getting something The Kids like to the point that I think I'm receiving real information that is clearly fake to other users. At what point does my brain start doing what my parents' brains did when the internet happened?
posted by Lyn Never at 1:14 PM on October 30, 2020 [50 favorites]
The hunt for the "reasonable Republican" is like the hunt for UFO's and alien life: A lot of people "just want to believe".
posted by eagles123 at 1:16 PM on October 30, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by eagles123 at 1:16 PM on October 30, 2020 [12 favorites]
A close, elderly relative is a smart, left wing person (not what they call 'liberal' in the US, actual left wing) who believes every single thing in her Facebook feed, but it's new-agey crap, how all medicine is a scam, things about 'energy' and 'quantums', how Nasa says that some planet aligning with some galaxy is super meaningful, etc. She knows I don't buy any of it, and I try to control my facial expression when she starts to talk about it.
posted by signal at 1:48 PM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by signal at 1:48 PM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
I remember - was it in the seventies or the eighties? - coming across a newspaper article that discussed how some old people believe everything they see on TV. They hadn't grown up on it, so while they had a filter for puffery and fraud when they were reading the newspaper and magazines or listening to the radio, somehow anything when the TV told them lies they were credulous because they could see the person talking, or see a film that backed up what the voice-over was saying.
The article also went on to mention how a generation had existed earlier, but had already passed on, that had trouble disbelieving things they heard on the radio (War of the Worlds was cited) while they still had retained the ability to not be fooled by printed false information.
I had a friend recently send me a list of covid-19 recommendations purporting to be from Bonnie Henry that she had copy pasted into an e-mail and when I did a simple search so I could tell her where her list came from she was a little surprised, "Fancy using someone else's identity to put forward a false message. You just can't trust much these days."
It is likely that some one in her own >75 age group had included the list of recommendations as a copy paste in an e-mail to her. That puts it squarely in the same category as someone sending her a recipe like "use Hellman's mayonnaise for this chocolate cake!" It's very much a matter of people in her circle sharing these things, often verbally and there being no incoming information in her life to tell her that mayonnaise in chocolate cake would work okay because it's made out of eggs and oil, but not credible that Dr. Henry would recommend both good mainstream advice "3. Washing hands and maintaining a two-meter (6 feet) physical distance is the best method for your protection," but also "15. Wearing a mask for long periods interferes with your breathing and oxygen levels. Wear it only in crowds."
My friend has no dementia and was well educated but her input gets more limited all the time. I think she reads the local newspaper but it no longer has researched journalism in it, only press releases and is owned by a local conservative. I am avoiding telling her about Russian disinformation, because my warning will sound like conspiracy theory and I figure will make anything else I tell her sound less credible.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
The article also went on to mention how a generation had existed earlier, but had already passed on, that had trouble disbelieving things they heard on the radio (War of the Worlds was cited) while they still had retained the ability to not be fooled by printed false information.
I had a friend recently send me a list of covid-19 recommendations purporting to be from Bonnie Henry that she had copy pasted into an e-mail and when I did a simple search so I could tell her where her list came from she was a little surprised, "Fancy using someone else's identity to put forward a false message. You just can't trust much these days."
It is likely that some one in her own >75 age group had included the list of recommendations as a copy paste in an e-mail to her. That puts it squarely in the same category as someone sending her a recipe like "use Hellman's mayonnaise for this chocolate cake!" It's very much a matter of people in her circle sharing these things, often verbally and there being no incoming information in her life to tell her that mayonnaise in chocolate cake would work okay because it's made out of eggs and oil, but not credible that Dr. Henry would recommend both good mainstream advice "3. Washing hands and maintaining a two-meter (6 feet) physical distance is the best method for your protection," but also "15. Wearing a mask for long periods interferes with your breathing and oxygen levels. Wear it only in crowds."
My friend has no dementia and was well educated but her input gets more limited all the time. I think she reads the local newspaper but it no longer has researched journalism in it, only press releases and is owned by a local conservative. I am avoiding telling her about Russian disinformation, because my warning will sound like conspiracy theory and I figure will make anything else I tell her sound less credible.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
Another vague theory I have is that for many people, especially when they are socially isolated, it does not matter at all whether their beliefs are false or true because they have very little power in any aspect of their lives. There just won't be any effect of being wrong because they almost never have to make any significant choices on the basis of their beliefs. It's all just fantasizing, speculations about politics don't have any more or less effect than speculations about the next season of the Mandalorian.
In the rare exceptions when they do have an important choice to make, they've lost those mental muscles for telling apart false and true information, and may make the wrong decision (COVID, scams, etc.).
This is why a certain type of guy, when somebody makes an outlandish claim, will aggressively offer them betting odds on it, but I think this is generally kind of weird and unhelpful. But I can understand the impulse to try to force people to put skin in the game.
posted by vogon_poet at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
In the rare exceptions when they do have an important choice to make, they've lost those mental muscles for telling apart false and true information, and may make the wrong decision (COVID, scams, etc.).
This is why a certain type of guy, when somebody makes an outlandish claim, will aggressively offer them betting odds on it, but I think this is generally kind of weird and unhelpful. But I can understand the impulse to try to force people to put skin in the game.
posted by vogon_poet at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
I worked for a website in the first dot com era, started pre-Y2k, for Canada's seniors. Mostly Greatest Generation.
We had forums, a chat room, and we provided live technical support via ICQ. I am dead serious. Part of my job was to be in ICQ as seniors from all over Canada would gradually log on and ask me what the weather was in Toronto that day.
When people started (of all ages...I remember running a MUSH when AOL opened the floodgates of access to The Web and people were yelling at me for banning them because they were paying me!!!!) for sure they thought everything that happened was deliberate. We had a lot of fun customer support moments.
From my experience during the lead up to the 2000 Canadian Federal Election,(Reform/Canadian Alliance/Stockwell Day era, a bitterly contested series of political events) this is not really a new phenomenon. We had to ban so many seniors for their behaviour in the politics forums it wasn't funny. We ended up taking those forums down. I remember a staff meeting at 2am after a screed was posted which we would probably call doxxing now, although a lot of unverifiable information about people's genitalia. We even had one guy drive down from Elliot Lake to demand access back (fortunately unarmed.)
People who are isolated, retired, lonely, scared, facing fixed income, or just plain ornery really can fall into this thinking really easily, and there are so many ways that algorithms and groups prey on those things. I have to say that I am increasingly galvanized about creating multi-generational housing and community options so that everyone sort of stays in touch with real people around them of different ages and backgrounds. (Hard in the Covid Times though.)
It's really painful; one of my friends' parents is so far gone in the conspiracy world that she is incredibly paranoid and it diminishes her life. I can only think that meaningful connection is the key.
As a slight non-sequitur I think I may have shared this story on this site before but we had to run logs on the chat to track down an issue. We emailed, posted pop-ups and a banner in the chat that we were logging everything, etc. Well. This chat allowed for private rooms. And it was all sex chat. All of it.
People do not necessarily get wiser as they get older.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:47 PM on October 30, 2020 [35 favorites]
We had forums, a chat room, and we provided live technical support via ICQ. I am dead serious. Part of my job was to be in ICQ as seniors from all over Canada would gradually log on and ask me what the weather was in Toronto that day.
When people started (of all ages...I remember running a MUSH when AOL opened the floodgates of access to The Web and people were yelling at me for banning them because they were paying me!!!!) for sure they thought everything that happened was deliberate. We had a lot of fun customer support moments.
From my experience during the lead up to the 2000 Canadian Federal Election,(Reform/Canadian Alliance/Stockwell Day era, a bitterly contested series of political events) this is not really a new phenomenon. We had to ban so many seniors for their behaviour in the politics forums it wasn't funny. We ended up taking those forums down. I remember a staff meeting at 2am after a screed was posted which we would probably call doxxing now, although a lot of unverifiable information about people's genitalia. We even had one guy drive down from Elliot Lake to demand access back (fortunately unarmed.)
People who are isolated, retired, lonely, scared, facing fixed income, or just plain ornery really can fall into this thinking really easily, and there are so many ways that algorithms and groups prey on those things. I have to say that I am increasingly galvanized about creating multi-generational housing and community options so that everyone sort of stays in touch with real people around them of different ages and backgrounds. (Hard in the Covid Times though.)
It's really painful; one of my friends' parents is so far gone in the conspiracy world that she is incredibly paranoid and it diminishes her life. I can only think that meaningful connection is the key.
As a slight non-sequitur I think I may have shared this story on this site before but we had to run logs on the chat to track down an issue. We emailed, posted pop-ups and a banner in the chat that we were logging everything, etc. Well. This chat allowed for private rooms. And it was all sex chat. All of it.
People do not necessarily get wiser as they get older.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:47 PM on October 30, 2020 [35 favorites]
Sometimes I wonder if the phenomenon of older people believing that everything they read online comes from this reverence for The Computer as a complex, unknowable machine that represents Scientists doing Important Science Things. My mom has a dramatically different relationship with science and technology than I do—she just assumes that every problem will have a scientific solution that someone will provide if we’re patient enough and I guess that if I had seen the eradication of polio, I might feel that way too. So there’s this reverence for technology that people my age and younger don’t have because we grew up with computers and TVs in the house as a matter of course. I feel like people her age have this faith that technology wouldn’t be used for nefarious purposes like scams or spreading misinformation because to them, that would be like using a national park to bilk seniors out of their money. They’re not stupid or naive but their experience with technology being used to advance humankind colors a lot of how they interact with it now.
posted by corey flood at 2:51 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by corey flood at 2:51 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
I am a Boomer, so actually I grew up with television (we got our first when I was five). Though I didn't have a personal computer until I was in my mid-twenties, I did learn to program in high school; many people my age actually were among the first users of social media, and we might not have grown up with social-media algorithms we did have Marshall McLuhan to warn us. I joined Facebook as soon as it was available to non-college-students (unjoined it a couple of years back), and have had various other accounts and blogs.
That is to say, I find this gullibility of some of those in my age group exceedingly perplexing. The naivete and the right-leaning don't seem to jibe with growing up when "don't trust anyone over 30" was a thing and activism along with assassinations and riots threw a harsh light on the complacency and conservatism of the fifties.
I've watched it happen, though, with other age groups, so I'd argue it's not a Boomer thing. It's more like many people hit a nostalgia barrier some time during their lives, when they decide they're just not going to live in the present any more, and so they're vulnerable to arguments that tell them the present is a suspect, false, state of existence, that the "good old days" somehow exist, and that anything that requires them to open their minds and change the way they think is evil.
I was there in those good old days. They weren't so hot. And a lot of the music really sucked; we only remember the good songs.
posted by Peach at 3:03 PM on October 30, 2020 [37 favorites]
That is to say, I find this gullibility of some of those in my age group exceedingly perplexing. The naivete and the right-leaning don't seem to jibe with growing up when "don't trust anyone over 30" was a thing and activism along with assassinations and riots threw a harsh light on the complacency and conservatism of the fifties.
I've watched it happen, though, with other age groups, so I'd argue it's not a Boomer thing. It's more like many people hit a nostalgia barrier some time during their lives, when they decide they're just not going to live in the present any more, and so they're vulnerable to arguments that tell them the present is a suspect, false, state of existence, that the "good old days" somehow exist, and that anything that requires them to open their minds and change the way they think is evil.
I was there in those good old days. They weren't so hot. And a lot of the music really sucked; we only remember the good songs.
posted by Peach at 3:03 PM on October 30, 2020 [37 favorites]
Just reading this today - "One Brain-Based Reason Motivation Fizzles With Age . I wonder if this is related to the "nostalgia barrier" you're referring to Peach.
posted by flamk at 3:17 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by flamk at 3:17 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
When I was a kid in the '80s, I was excited to find a collection of the top Billboard hits from 1969 at the tiny music section of the local department store. Surely, I told my young self, I was going to be in for some righteous hippie jams, like the stuff I'd heard in commercials for 'Freedom Rock.'
The #1 Billboard hit in 1969? 'Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine in,' a song from a freaking musical. 'Hair' itself also made the charts. Among the other top ten hits? The Archies' 'Sugar Sugar.'
History is a lie.
(It did have 'Time of the Season' and 'I Can't Get Next to You,' though, so, y'know, not all bad.)
posted by box at 3:19 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
The #1 Billboard hit in 1969? 'Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine in,' a song from a freaking musical. 'Hair' itself also made the charts. Among the other top ten hits? The Archies' 'Sugar Sugar.'
History is a lie.
(It did have 'Time of the Season' and 'I Can't Get Next to You,' though, so, y'know, not all bad.)
posted by box at 3:19 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
I save my brain by never reading anything published on HuffPo. Problem solved!
posted by Ideefixe at 3:20 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 3:20 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Many Gen Xers are in their mid/late 40s too.
Talk Hard!
posted by elmono at 3:39 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
Talk Hard!
posted by elmono at 3:39 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
“So this 52-year-old man who had never used a computer gets on YouTube. That’s when the algorithms got to work on him.”
When was this written? I’m a 62-year-old who has been using computers since his late 20s. I admit that probably makes me an outlier among non-techies, but I still find it incomprehensible how anyone in their early 50s can have never used a computer, even if just to surf and play minesweeper. I know we like to joke about olds being computer illiterate, but the folks who embody that meme are in their 70s and 80s now.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:49 PM on October 30, 2020 [17 favorites]
When was this written? I’m a 62-year-old who has been using computers since his late 20s. I admit that probably makes me an outlier among non-techies, but I still find it incomprehensible how anyone in their early 50s can have never used a computer, even if just to surf and play minesweeper. I know we like to joke about olds being computer illiterate, but the folks who embody that meme are in their 70s and 80s now.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:49 PM on October 30, 2020 [17 favorites]
I have to say that I am increasingly galvanized about creating multi-generational housing and community options
That's an interesting approach -- is there any evidence that it keeps communities more reality-attached? (I agree with you that it seems obvious, but...)
A 52-year-old man suddenly retiring and using computers for the first time sounds like someone whose physical job hurt him too badly to continue. That's a painful state to be reassessing reality in.
posted by clew at 4:12 PM on October 30, 2020 [13 favorites]
That's an interesting approach -- is there any evidence that it keeps communities more reality-attached? (I agree with you that it seems obvious, but...)
A 52-year-old man suddenly retiring and using computers for the first time sounds like someone whose physical job hurt him too badly to continue. That's a painful state to be reassessing reality in.
posted by clew at 4:12 PM on October 30, 2020 [13 favorites]
A 52-year-old man suddenly retiring and using computers for the first time sounds like someone whose physical job hurt him too badly to continue.
I think it's underappreciated how quickly you can be microtargeted by modern algorithms, and what it means. Once algorithms tied to business metrics are driving decisions in media companies, the whole notion that you can have a healthy relationship with that system is pretty much over.
The perfect audience for any ad-driven company is a person who's impulsive, angry, frightened and tired, and if you show them a hint of weakness these machines will immediately optimize what you see to turn you into that perfect customer.
posted by mhoye at 5:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think it's underappreciated how quickly you can be microtargeted by modern algorithms, and what it means. Once algorithms tied to business metrics are driving decisions in media companies, the whole notion that you can have a healthy relationship with that system is pretty much over.
The perfect audience for any ad-driven company is a person who's impulsive, angry, frightened and tired, and if you show them a hint of weakness these machines will immediately optimize what you see to turn you into that perfect customer.
posted by mhoye at 5:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
52 this year is someone who graduated high school in 1986. They were 30 in 1998. Someone who made enough money to retire at 52 never used a computer until then? Anyone being well-paid enough in the trades to retire at that age had some computer tasks, even if they were a welder or whatever. Seems awfully "just so".
posted by maxwelton at 5:08 PM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 5:08 PM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
I don't and have never really believed myself to be smart or smarter than other people. I mean, in the early internet days I loved reading Snopes and researching things like the Loch Ness monster, so in some ways I should be a good candidate to become a conspiracy believer. The only theory I have as to why I'm not a believer other than luck and not being repeatedly exposed to such ideas, is that I'm neither White nor have a Christian background. I think a lot of those conspiracies (especially QAnon) and beliefs exploit nostalgia and shared cultural memories from people with that background. And since I have neither, I probably have a little more resistance to them. And of course, this theory only applies to me and my family who share my background, so it has limited use in explaining things on a large scale.
posted by FJT at 5:18 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by FJT at 5:18 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
52 this year is someone who graduated high school in 1986. They were 30 in 1998. Someone who made enough money to retire at 52 never used a computer until then? Anyone being well-paid enough in the trades to retire at that age had some computer tasks, even if they were a welder or whatever. Seems awfully "just so".
I'm 53, also graduated in '86, and this doesn't surprise me at all. While I've always been a tech head with a life in the internet culture, I know plenty of folks new to it all. Yeah they may have used a PC for tasks at work, but would never think of dropping $1k on one for the home when that money could go to fishing gear, hunting gear, dirtbike gear, etc. Computer stuff was for nerds and geeks. Not to mention internet service in rural areas was, and still is in many cases, so poor it just wasn't worth it. Now it's all on the cell phone most everyone carries around.
posted by calamari kid at 5:30 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
I'm 53, also graduated in '86, and this doesn't surprise me at all. While I've always been a tech head with a life in the internet culture, I know plenty of folks new to it all. Yeah they may have used a PC for tasks at work, but would never think of dropping $1k on one for the home when that money could go to fishing gear, hunting gear, dirtbike gear, etc. Computer stuff was for nerds and geeks. Not to mention internet service in rural areas was, and still is in many cases, so poor it just wasn't worth it. Now it's all on the cell phone most everyone carries around.
posted by calamari kid at 5:30 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
i'm 63 - when i was in high school some people believed that the communists were taking over the country with rock music, long hair, drugs and anti-war protests - a common trope was that the peace symbol dated back to rome and symbolized st peter being hung upside down on a diagonal cross - they were more interested in the latest doings of barnabas collins on dark shadows than attending school, more interested in throwing rubber stoppers at nerds than learning chemistry, more concerned with whether the teacher was coming to bust them for smoking in the bathroom than whether their grades were going to get them into college
and now i see them trading all sorts of right wing stupidity with each other
the shitheads who made my life miserable in high school are now making everyone's lives miserable
i'm not surprised
The #1 Billboard hit in 1969? 'Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine in,' a song from a freaking musical.
the last 2 1/2 minutes of that is one of the great funk bombs of the 60s - that bass player throws down - i liked the cowsills and the archies, too, and don't get me started on the superior pop artistry of macarthur park
but i digress ...
posted by pyramid termite at 5:51 PM on October 30, 2020 [24 favorites]
and now i see them trading all sorts of right wing stupidity with each other
the shitheads who made my life miserable in high school are now making everyone's lives miserable
i'm not surprised
The #1 Billboard hit in 1969? 'Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine in,' a song from a freaking musical.
the last 2 1/2 minutes of that is one of the great funk bombs of the 60s - that bass player throws down - i liked the cowsills and the archies, too, and don't get me started on the superior pop artistry of macarthur park
but i digress ...
posted by pyramid termite at 5:51 PM on October 30, 2020 [24 favorites]
Yeah, I think "never used" is maybe pulling a little more weight than it should - I suspect it's much less "NEVER never" and more "never for entertainment/personal use (until recently.)" I'm 52 and I know plenty of folks around my age, and mostly blue collar in background and/or jobs, for whom computers were necessary work evils at best - used for recordkeeping and industrial control and things, with annoying creaky proprietary legacy software. They never even considered "going online" until the last ten years with the rise of smartphones and ipads and social media. (Which, yes, I know these have been around longer than 10 years, but if you start with no interest in these things it takes a while for them to become ubiquitous enough for you to notice.)
posted by soundguy99 at 5:52 PM on October 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 5:52 PM on October 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
i took data processing in voed school in 74 and although i turned out to be poorly motivated to become a cobol programmer, there were two important things i learned about computers then
1 - they are stupid and only know what you tell them and do exactly what you tell them to do
2 - garbage in, garbage out
i wish people knew that
posted by pyramid termite at 6:13 PM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
1 - they are stupid and only know what you tell them and do exactly what you tell them to do
2 - garbage in, garbage out
i wish people knew that
posted by pyramid termite at 6:13 PM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
From my experience with boomers and conspiracy and right wing crankery, it seems more linked to the acquisition of a smart phone then a computer. So. Much. Endless. Scrolling.
Even my dad (74), who isn’t into right wing crackery, is glued to his damn smart phone ever since he got one two years ago. He is worse than a teenager.
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:31 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
Even my dad (74), who isn’t into right wing crackery, is glued to his damn smart phone ever since he got one two years ago. He is worse than a teenager.
posted by fimbulvetr at 6:31 PM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
One of the things I've learned about Twitter in the past week is that quoting the line from Blazing Saddles, "you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar whore" can get your account suspended for hate speech. It's true! After my appeal went through and failed I decided to keep the account suspended until after the election. I had a moment of weakness this morning, but it passed. No Twitter! No immediate news! It's an odd feeling, and I bet my elders are much more inclined to feed the presence of Internet overload, whatever form they prefer (or don't, as the case may be). It's all dopamine, right?
Just the other day I was reflecting on how my 83 year old Mom uses Facebook with about as much skill as it takes to make the phone calls that the social internet replaced. Her timeline is a mess, half the time I think she 'likes' stuff because she thinks some Trump ad was sent to her by a friend and she doesn't want to seem rude, and the other half is that she'll click on something to get rid of some entry on her timeline, but whatever she clicks is the "send me more shit" link. This happens with her email, too, such that I finally just set up a filter that colors every message from someone she knows green. She can ignore all the black lines, which makes it less likely she'll get added to some woodworking spamlist.
posted by rhizome at 7:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
Just the other day I was reflecting on how my 83 year old Mom uses Facebook with about as much skill as it takes to make the phone calls that the social internet replaced. Her timeline is a mess, half the time I think she 'likes' stuff because she thinks some Trump ad was sent to her by a friend and she doesn't want to seem rude, and the other half is that she'll click on something to get rid of some entry on her timeline, but whatever she clicks is the "send me more shit" link. This happens with her email, too, such that I finally just set up a filter that colors every message from someone she knows green. She can ignore all the black lines, which makes it less likely she'll get added to some woodworking spamlist.
posted by rhizome at 7:00 PM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
Interestingly, COVID-19 misinformation is less likely to be believed by the older generation, in comparison to their general gullibility.
“It could be that older people are less susceptible [to misinformation] but they’re still sharing it more,” Linden said, adding that they may also be less inclined to endorse Covid-19 misinformation because there is an incentive to be accurate as the elderly are the biggest casualties of the disease."
I work with some older people who are new to smart phones and tablets. The gulf of understanding about how they interact with them is almost impossible to bridge sometimes. The only thing protecting most of them from disaster is their complete mistrust of technology. They have no interest in online banking and most will not shop online. They will not put their bank account, credit card or debit card details into their phone, or tablet. This is great for protecting them from exploitation in the short term, but creates longer term issues.
As this is the generation where retirees have more disposable income than those in work, older people are targeted by all kinds of money seeking scam artists. This is the first generation where the children are poorer than their parents in many countries.
The human desire to see oneself as the hero of their own story creates a resounding cognitive dissonance for any older person who is paying attention to these facts. I believe that this fuels their descent into conspiracy and misinformation, as they cast about for some way to make sense of this world. In addition, they have capital in the form of property and the pensions they enjoy, which they seek to protect. People aren't more likely to become right wing with age, but they are more likely to become more right wing when they have capital. This can funnel them into the Boomer radicalisation pipeline.
While it is the case that the constant slew of information that the modern infinite scrolling Internet experience provides seems to short circuit the brain and produce poor judgement outcomes, I think that the older generation are predisposed to be susceptible to misinformation in order to avoid the realities of the world that the younger generation are inheriting from them. It is just too horrible for many of them to contemplate.
posted by asok at 7:01 PM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
“It could be that older people are less susceptible [to misinformation] but they’re still sharing it more,” Linden said, adding that they may also be less inclined to endorse Covid-19 misinformation because there is an incentive to be accurate as the elderly are the biggest casualties of the disease."
I work with some older people who are new to smart phones and tablets. The gulf of understanding about how they interact with them is almost impossible to bridge sometimes. The only thing protecting most of them from disaster is their complete mistrust of technology. They have no interest in online banking and most will not shop online. They will not put their bank account, credit card or debit card details into their phone, or tablet. This is great for protecting them from exploitation in the short term, but creates longer term issues.
As this is the generation where retirees have more disposable income than those in work, older people are targeted by all kinds of money seeking scam artists. This is the first generation where the children are poorer than their parents in many countries.
The human desire to see oneself as the hero of their own story creates a resounding cognitive dissonance for any older person who is paying attention to these facts. I believe that this fuels their descent into conspiracy and misinformation, as they cast about for some way to make sense of this world. In addition, they have capital in the form of property and the pensions they enjoy, which they seek to protect. People aren't more likely to become right wing with age, but they are more likely to become more right wing when they have capital. This can funnel them into the Boomer radicalisation pipeline.
While it is the case that the constant slew of information that the modern infinite scrolling Internet experience provides seems to short circuit the brain and produce poor judgement outcomes, I think that the older generation are predisposed to be susceptible to misinformation in order to avoid the realities of the world that the younger generation are inheriting from them. It is just too horrible for many of them to contemplate.
posted by asok at 7:01 PM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
it seems more linked to the acquisition of a smart phone then a computer.
I think you've hit on something. Even if a lot of these people probably have in fact used a computer for work, there's a big difference between that and having a little pocket facebook device where you can see pictures of your grandkids but also watch Alex Jones do whatever the fuck you want to call what he does.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:41 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
I think you've hit on something. Even if a lot of these people probably have in fact used a computer for work, there's a big difference between that and having a little pocket facebook device where you can see pictures of your grandkids but also watch Alex Jones do whatever the fuck you want to call what he does.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:41 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
Many Gen Xers are in their mid/late 40s too.
Somebody told me today that Ethan Hawke will be 50 next week. And I made a joke about Reality Biting in dentures that was so bad I was accused of age-related cognitive decline.
So yes, point taken. POINT ME TO YOUR CLEVER CONSPIRACY THEORIES, YOUNG PEOPLE!
posted by thivaia at 10:22 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
Somebody told me today that Ethan Hawke will be 50 next week. And I made a joke about Reality Biting in dentures that was so bad I was accused of age-related cognitive decline.
So yes, point taken. POINT ME TO YOUR CLEVER CONSPIRACY THEORIES, YOUNG PEOPLE!
posted by thivaia at 10:22 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
She sprays colloidal silver on her dogs' injuries. (So far, without any visible harm.)
That one is actually a reasonably legimate use of colloidal silver. The mechanism is not completely understood, but it does work as an antibacterial on surface wounds to help prevent them getting septic. Antibiotics are more effective, and colloidal silver does damage other types of cells too so it takes longer for wounds to heal. But some dogs have a habit of biting off dressings, so it's one way to reduce the risk of infection for minor skin wounds as long as they're monitored, when getting them to the vet is impractical.
Using it for other purposes or taken orally (by humans or dogs) does have a ton of woo around it though, for which any benefit is unproven, and there are significant side effects.
More on topic, social media algorithms have a lot to answer for. Their intent is to get people to stay on the platform as long as possible, and content that enrages, distresses or is otherwise written to push people's buttons increases 'engagement'. So it gets sprayed widely, and once you start reading a bit of it, the algorithms will push more and more of it at you, and wilder and nastier conspiracies. When the vast majority of what you have constantly pushed on you through that magic black box in your pocket ends up being hateful, anti-science lies, pro-corporate propaganda and othering of all people who aren't just like you, that will inevitably affect some people, especially if they grew up in a world where you trusted the written word. Pushing all that makes a LOT of money, ludicrous amounts, and of course benefits the hard right who generate this stuff to push their own agendas. Facebook and twitter are the real internet hate machines, and it's by design.
My boomer dad doesn't use facebook, thankfully, but he believes, and repeats, every word he reads in the paper. "They wouldn't print it if it wasn't true." Of course, he reads a pro-tory, pro-business, pro-brexit newspaper, so suffice to say there a number of topics we no longer discuss at family gatherings.
As a young gen X'er (now 45, oh god), I grew up with the internet as a new shiny thing in my teens, full of other hopeful nerds, certain that it would usher in a new era of public discourse far better than the biased, corporatist view presented through the mostly oligarch-owned British press or the bland, "both-sides" don't-rock-the-boat TV news.
Boy, did we get that wrong.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:19 AM on October 31, 2020 [14 favorites]
That one is actually a reasonably legimate use of colloidal silver. The mechanism is not completely understood, but it does work as an antibacterial on surface wounds to help prevent them getting septic. Antibiotics are more effective, and colloidal silver does damage other types of cells too so it takes longer for wounds to heal. But some dogs have a habit of biting off dressings, so it's one way to reduce the risk of infection for minor skin wounds as long as they're monitored, when getting them to the vet is impractical.
Using it for other purposes or taken orally (by humans or dogs) does have a ton of woo around it though, for which any benefit is unproven, and there are significant side effects.
More on topic, social media algorithms have a lot to answer for. Their intent is to get people to stay on the platform as long as possible, and content that enrages, distresses or is otherwise written to push people's buttons increases 'engagement'. So it gets sprayed widely, and once you start reading a bit of it, the algorithms will push more and more of it at you, and wilder and nastier conspiracies. When the vast majority of what you have constantly pushed on you through that magic black box in your pocket ends up being hateful, anti-science lies, pro-corporate propaganda and othering of all people who aren't just like you, that will inevitably affect some people, especially if they grew up in a world where you trusted the written word. Pushing all that makes a LOT of money, ludicrous amounts, and of course benefits the hard right who generate this stuff to push their own agendas. Facebook and twitter are the real internet hate machines, and it's by design.
My boomer dad doesn't use facebook, thankfully, but he believes, and repeats, every word he reads in the paper. "They wouldn't print it if it wasn't true." Of course, he reads a pro-tory, pro-business, pro-brexit newspaper, so suffice to say there a number of topics we no longer discuss at family gatherings.
As a young gen X'er (now 45, oh god), I grew up with the internet as a new shiny thing in my teens, full of other hopeful nerds, certain that it would usher in a new era of public discourse far better than the biased, corporatist view presented through the mostly oligarch-owned British press or the bland, "both-sides" don't-rock-the-boat TV news.
Boy, did we get that wrong.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:19 AM on October 31, 2020 [14 favorites]
“So this 52-year-old man who had never used a computer gets on YouTube. That’s when the algorithms got to work on him.”
Previously: what YouTube looks like to a first time login on a brand new account on a clean machine.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 3:24 AM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
Previously: what YouTube looks like to a first time login on a brand new account on a clean machine.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 3:24 AM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
Obviously the COVID Times are an issue with multigenerational housing but here’s a study from Japan about trust and inter generational living; here’s a study focused a lot on implementation which references other studies.
Anecdata of one: when my 70 yo MIL moved in with us she had gotten pretty isolated in some ways. There was a physical component. Now she’s researching residential school policy with my son for their art project.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:12 AM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
Anecdata of one: when my 70 yo MIL moved in with us she had gotten pretty isolated in some ways. There was a physical component. Now she’s researching residential school policy with my son for their art project.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:12 AM on October 31, 2020 [8 favorites]
The #1 Billboard hit in 1969? 'Aquarius/Let the Sun Shine in,' a song from a freaking musical. 'Hair' itself also made the charts. Among the other top ten hits? The Archies' 'Sugar Sugar.'
History is a lie.
Also, wasn't the actual music at Woodstock mostly beery blues-rock, rather than the psychedelic carnival of peace'n'love that folk memory records it as?
posted by acb at 6:30 AM on October 31, 2020
History is a lie.
Also, wasn't the actual music at Woodstock mostly beery blues-rock, rather than the psychedelic carnival of peace'n'love that folk memory records it as?
posted by acb at 6:30 AM on October 31, 2020
It is so dislocating for me to recognize that millennials are nearly in their 40s and Gen X'ers are well in their 50s.
I am Gen X. I am almost 41.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:37 AM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am Gen X. I am almost 41.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:37 AM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
...wasn't the actual music at Woodstock mostly beery blues-rock, rather than the psychedelic carnival of peace'n'love that folk memory records it as?
It's a mixed bag. That doesn't ignore the fact that a shit ton of the audience were still either stoned, tripping, etc.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:39 AM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
It's a mixed bag. That doesn't ignore the fact that a shit ton of the audience were still either stoned, tripping, etc.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:39 AM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
Regarding “omg genx is old now”: Depending on who you ask, GenX starts somewhere from 1960-1965, and ends somewhere between 1978-1985, with one outlier who said it ends in 1976 and calls most of the rest of that span the “bust generation”. I made a chart of all this stuff a while back and it felt really sobering to see it laid out like that. The overall range of GenX includes people who are anywhere between 45 to 60 years old in 2020.
I made that in the beginning of the year. Little did I know how old I would feel by the end of it.
posted by egypturnash at 7:24 AM on October 31, 2020 [9 favorites]
I made that in the beginning of the year. Little did I know how old I would feel by the end of it.
posted by egypturnash at 7:24 AM on October 31, 2020 [9 favorites]
“So this 52-year-old man who had never used a computer gets on YouTube. That’s when the algorithms got to work on him.”
Actually this ties in weirdly with something I was learning about the youth recently...
Young people don't think smartphones are "computers." They're often quite shocked when you explain that the phone has computer chips inside it. Like, how the fuck else would it work, kid? Magic??
This 52-year-old man has probably used a smartphone. But he probably doesn't consider it a "computer" because you don't sit down at it to do "work."
Honestly, I do wonder how much the fact that people don't view smartphones and computers as the same thing ties into it.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:15 AM on October 31, 2020 [10 favorites]
Actually this ties in weirdly with something I was learning about the youth recently...
Young people don't think smartphones are "computers." They're often quite shocked when you explain that the phone has computer chips inside it. Like, how the fuck else would it work, kid? Magic??
This 52-year-old man has probably used a smartphone. But he probably doesn't consider it a "computer" because you don't sit down at it to do "work."
Honestly, I do wonder how much the fact that people don't view smartphones and computers as the same thing ties into it.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:15 AM on October 31, 2020 [10 favorites]
never really believed myself to be smart or smarter than other people
I think you are. Have you met some of these dumbasses?
posted by aspersioncast at 9:50 AM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think you are. Have you met some of these dumbasses?
posted by aspersioncast at 9:50 AM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
~Young people don't think smartphones are "computers."
~This 52-year-old man has probably used a smartphone. But he probably doesn't consider it a "computer" because you don't sit down at it to do "work."
And? Honestly, "work" is probably how most people view their relationship of something they would label as being a "computer." A tool they use to do a job. Yes, technically, a smart phone is a computer, but regular people don't use them the same way they use their laptops or desktops. Those are the computers in their lives.
Their phones are more akin to the old concept of a PDA, but far more advanced. Something they live their lives through. An actual extension of themselves. It's a far more personal (and seamless!) relationship, and people (mentally) don't have relationships with "computers" any more than they have a relationship with a hammer.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:24 AM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
~This 52-year-old man has probably used a smartphone. But he probably doesn't consider it a "computer" because you don't sit down at it to do "work."
And? Honestly, "work" is probably how most people view their relationship of something they would label as being a "computer." A tool they use to do a job. Yes, technically, a smart phone is a computer, but regular people don't use them the same way they use their laptops or desktops. Those are the computers in their lives.
Their phones are more akin to the old concept of a PDA, but far more advanced. Something they live their lives through. An actual extension of themselves. It's a far more personal (and seamless!) relationship, and people (mentally) don't have relationships with "computers" any more than they have a relationship with a hammer.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:24 AM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
Honestly, "work" is probably how most people view their relationship of something they would label as being a "computer."
This is very much thanks to Microsoft, who increasingly pitched the 'personal' computer as a corporate experience. 'You can continue working while we install updates.' But we weren't working - we were playing Quake / looking at pr0n / writing something abusive on Usenet.
Scroll forward to the age of smartphones, and people wouldn't (and didn't) touch Microsoft phones with a ten-foot pole.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:17 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
This is very much thanks to Microsoft, who increasingly pitched the 'personal' computer as a corporate experience. 'You can continue working while we install updates.' But we weren't working - we were playing Quake / looking at pr0n / writing something abusive on Usenet.
Scroll forward to the age of smartphones, and people wouldn't (and didn't) touch Microsoft phones with a ten-foot pole.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:17 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
"I want to believe this is the death gasp of alienated, angry old white folks. I'm not at all sure that's true."
You're not being sure it's true is correct. This is a self delusional non-boomer liberals want to tell themselves to give themselves hope. It's the counter to "Millenial Avocado Toast is what's REALLY wrong with this country".
If we all pretend it's just the old generation dying off we don't have to take responsibility for OUR generation's role in this. Even if our generation is the one that Built this Tower of Babel Edifice upon which the entire structure is founded (Xillenial, here -- I bought the technotopian fetish from Wired, hook, line and sinker and reject it now). (Wired, Line, hmm... If Wired was the Line, the Hook was "Technotopia" and the Sinker is MAGA?)
I feel like a lot of the early adopters at least kind of get this. But then we run into the "Eternal September" -- it's always shit and always has been. But that doesn't mean there aren't shades of brown to this shit.
I guess my point is - blaming the older generations is just a justification to take away our own responsibility "as a generation" on this. And it's easy to give all our hope to the millenials (and I think there are signs of hope, but ... I think I also thought there were signs with us, and I guess, hey , kinda sorta legal weed is better than none?) But that's all we get from my generation that and the infrastructure that's going to destroy us all.
So here, my folks were never really "online" (Dad died just a little over a year ago at 81 years old. He was online but not ONLINE... thankfully I think his vision and hearing were a bit too bad for him to get too much infiltrated by this shit as it was happening (and too sick and ill by the end)) but he was conservative even if he dressed it in "anti-politics" (all politicians are crooks) then Trump comes along and then he gets all "YEAH".
My mom, the cognitive dissonance of her immigrant hate (oh no, it's never hate, you know. not from her... she justifies it somehow, her Love for people (and honestly as a person you would never expect her to be that way... But that's the thing... The real hardcore truck driving, Gadsden flying, Gun Totin' ones are easy. They're not the real threat. They're the ones like my mom who are simply nice people being good neighbors and friendly (even to their neighbors and their immigrant husband who doesn't speak English much)).
My mom is a "Good German" who not only allowed this but actively voted for this evil piece of shit.
And she's not online. But Fox News sure got to her. Thankfully she no longer has TV. and still doesn't use online. So at least there's that. But she's still conservative. I want to make a deal with her : Now that you've got the supreme court can you STOP voting for the people who want to gut welfare and put kids in cages/ PLEASE? (Then maybe *I* can stop voting for the centrists who want to gut welfare and put adults in concrete buildings).
posted by symbioid at 3:09 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
You're not being sure it's true is correct. This is a self delusional non-boomer liberals want to tell themselves to give themselves hope. It's the counter to "Millenial Avocado Toast is what's REALLY wrong with this country".
If we all pretend it's just the old generation dying off we don't have to take responsibility for OUR generation's role in this. Even if our generation is the one that Built this Tower of Babel Edifice upon which the entire structure is founded (Xillenial, here -- I bought the technotopian fetish from Wired, hook, line and sinker and reject it now). (Wired, Line, hmm... If Wired was the Line, the Hook was "Technotopia" and the Sinker is MAGA?)
I feel like a lot of the early adopters at least kind of get this. But then we run into the "Eternal September" -- it's always shit and always has been. But that doesn't mean there aren't shades of brown to this shit.
I guess my point is - blaming the older generations is just a justification to take away our own responsibility "as a generation" on this. And it's easy to give all our hope to the millenials (and I think there are signs of hope, but ... I think I also thought there were signs with us, and I guess, hey , kinda sorta legal weed is better than none?) But that's all we get from my generation that and the infrastructure that's going to destroy us all.
So here, my folks were never really "online" (Dad died just a little over a year ago at 81 years old. He was online but not ONLINE... thankfully I think his vision and hearing were a bit too bad for him to get too much infiltrated by this shit as it was happening (and too sick and ill by the end)) but he was conservative even if he dressed it in "anti-politics" (all politicians are crooks) then Trump comes along and then he gets all "YEAH".
My mom, the cognitive dissonance of her immigrant hate (oh no, it's never hate, you know. not from her... she justifies it somehow, her Love for people (and honestly as a person you would never expect her to be that way... But that's the thing... The real hardcore truck driving, Gadsden flying, Gun Totin' ones are easy. They're not the real threat. They're the ones like my mom who are simply nice people being good neighbors and friendly (even to their neighbors and their immigrant husband who doesn't speak English much)).
My mom is a "Good German" who not only allowed this but actively voted for this evil piece of shit.
And she's not online. But Fox News sure got to her. Thankfully she no longer has TV. and still doesn't use online. So at least there's that. But she's still conservative. I want to make a deal with her : Now that you've got the supreme court can you STOP voting for the people who want to gut welfare and put kids in cages/ PLEASE? (Then maybe *I* can stop voting for the centrists who want to gut welfare and put adults in concrete buildings).
posted by symbioid at 3:09 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
"Fancy using someone else's identity to put forward a false message. You just can't trust much these days." ...
Also - this is sort of the perverse incentive. Create distrust in the system by being part of that distrust and use it to feed into horrendous narratives that can feed exactly into what you want to hear.
We need:
1) Critical Thinking skills taught more than ever
2) We need to figure out how to engage with Dunning-Krueger types who think they're critical thinking when all they're doing is being contrariand who and think they are "out-criticalthinking the critical thinkers" - too clever by half
3) We need to educate people about the concept of Good Faith/Bad Faith.
Con artists work so well because everyone is quite ready to trust other people. Despite what the Game Theorists want us all to believe, humans have a propensity for cooperation (or at least, that's what I *want* to believe). That propensity ends up allowing ourselves to become marks, deluded by a believe in the good faith nature of the other (at least, insofar as they seem like us, of course "The Other" is a different question in how humans perceive good and bad faith).
How we deal with the concept of bad faith vs good faith and get people to recognize it is a good question.
I just know that once I recognize someone is arguing in bad faith I drop them like a hot potato.
posted by symbioid at 3:26 PM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
Also - this is sort of the perverse incentive. Create distrust in the system by being part of that distrust and use it to feed into horrendous narratives that can feed exactly into what you want to hear.
We need:
1) Critical Thinking skills taught more than ever
2) We need to figure out how to engage with Dunning-Krueger types who think they're critical thinking when all they're doing is being contrariand who and think they are "out-criticalthinking the critical thinkers" - too clever by half
3) We need to educate people about the concept of Good Faith/Bad Faith.
Con artists work so well because everyone is quite ready to trust other people. Despite what the Game Theorists want us all to believe, humans have a propensity for cooperation (or at least, that's what I *want* to believe). That propensity ends up allowing ourselves to become marks, deluded by a believe in the good faith nature of the other (at least, insofar as they seem like us, of course "The Other" is a different question in how humans perceive good and bad faith).
How we deal with the concept of bad faith vs good faith and get people to recognize it is a good question.
I just know that once I recognize someone is arguing in bad faith I drop them like a hot potato.
posted by symbioid at 3:26 PM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
This is very much thanks to Microsoft, who increasingly pitched the 'personal' computer as a corporate experience.
IBM, surely?
posted by acb at 5:09 PM on October 31, 2020 [4 favorites]
IBM, surely?
posted by acb at 5:09 PM on October 31, 2020 [4 favorites]
So my Boomer parents literally started their careers as programmers in the punch card era, and then working in international finance, and they STILL fell for a Moneygram scam. Like, they called me on their way home from Walmart and were so proud of themselves. When I immediately said "what the hell, that's a scam," they were like "oh, yeah you're right the story didn't make a lot of sense" and they turned right around and were able to get their cash back, crisis averted.
But there's more to this than "never learned critical thinking" and "unfamiliar with the technology." I mean, their generation invented the technology. There are actual changes in the brains of (cognitively normal) older adults that make them more like teenagers -- reduced activity in the prefrontal cortex, for instance -- and more susceptible to peer pressure. The bubble effect of social media and algorithms almost certainly exacerbates this. But the Archie Bunker trope has been around since the 70s for a reason.
posted by basalganglia at 5:28 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
But there's more to this than "never learned critical thinking" and "unfamiliar with the technology." I mean, their generation invented the technology. There are actual changes in the brains of (cognitively normal) older adults that make them more like teenagers -- reduced activity in the prefrontal cortex, for instance -- and more susceptible to peer pressure. The bubble effect of social media and algorithms almost certainly exacerbates this. But the Archie Bunker trope has been around since the 70s for a reason.
posted by basalganglia at 5:28 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
warriorqueen: ... During the lead up to the 2000 Canadian Federal Election,(Reform/Canadian Alliance/Stockwell Day era, a bitterly contested series of political events) ... we had to ban so many seniors for their behaviour in the politics forums it wasn't funny. We ended up taking those forums down. I remember a staff meeting at 2am after a screed was posted which we would probably call doxxing now, although a lot of unverifiable information about people's genitalia. ...
In the month before the Nov. 6, 2012, statewide vote on a referendum to legalize same-sex marriage in Maine, we were accused of censorship for not publishing online comments and letters to the editor by a senior who posited that same-sex marriage was against God and nature. This reader said their point was proven by the fact that only male-female couples have genitals that (they said) "complement one another" for purposes of reproduction.
The author of these comments and letters went into such detail that I was reminded of Sen. Jesse Helms' obsession with federal arts grantee Robert Mapplethorpe's photographs. (Helms brought copies of the photos to a meeting of the Appropriations subcommittee in charge of arts funding and wanted to hand them out.)
"Now we know what turns (Helms) on," Susie Bright said a few years later, "but frankly, nobody asked."
posted by virago at 12:25 AM on November 1, 2020
In the month before the Nov. 6, 2012, statewide vote on a referendum to legalize same-sex marriage in Maine, we were accused of censorship for not publishing online comments and letters to the editor by a senior who posited that same-sex marriage was against God and nature. This reader said their point was proven by the fact that only male-female couples have genitals that (they said) "complement one another" for purposes of reproduction.
The author of these comments and letters went into such detail that I was reminded of Sen. Jesse Helms' obsession with federal arts grantee Robert Mapplethorpe's photographs. (Helms brought copies of the photos to a meeting of the Appropriations subcommittee in charge of arts funding and wanted to hand them out.)
"Now we know what turns (Helms) on," Susie Bright said a few years later, "but frankly, nobody asked."
posted by virago at 12:25 AM on November 1, 2020
I was thinking about calamari kid and aspersioncast's comments and I think they're right in that smartphone usage could be a big factor in this. I know that when I'm on my phone, I'm less likely to double-check and cross-reference articles than I am on the computer, especially if those articles agree with my general world-view. In fact, I'm less likely to read a whole article than I am on the computer. Having multiple tabs open on my phone is a pain and my attention span seems less with the smaller screen. I also can't type as accurately or as quickly, so I'm less likely to question a post or make comments, less likely to seek additional information.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 1:17 AM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 1:17 AM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am a late-Gen X child of early Boomers, and I am incredibly proud of how my parents have just become more progressive throughout their lives. They grew up in NC and GA, went to segregated schools, were scared of the protests in the 1960s in Atlanta, yet then intentionally moved to a place where their kids would go to integrated schools, embraced their gay relatives, and raised us to treasure all the people in the community where we lived, and now they are all in progressive Democrats who were huge Warren supporters and spend all their retirement volunteering for causes aimed at helping BIPOC folks in Charlotte.
Their only relationship to the right wing trash on social media is that they're really uncomfortable with me fighting their friends who say horrible stuff in response to their mostly innocuous posts. Because they are still nice polite southerners who think we somehow should and can all get along.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:50 AM on November 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
Their only relationship to the right wing trash on social media is that they're really uncomfortable with me fighting their friends who say horrible stuff in response to their mostly innocuous posts. Because they are still nice polite southerners who think we somehow should and can all get along.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:50 AM on November 1, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't know if it's still true, but for a while there it was looking like there was more support of Trump among Gen X than Boomers. There was a nihilism present in a lot of Gen X popular culture that was missed at the time. A lot of the music and television were centered around the belief that both sides were equally bad and nothing mattered.
posted by xammerboy at 5:20 AM on November 1, 2020
posted by xammerboy at 5:20 AM on November 1, 2020
There was a nihilism present in a lot of Gen X popular culture that was missed at the time. A lot of the music and television were centered around the belief that both sides were equally bad and nothing mattered.
I don't know that it was missed at the time; I feel like that was part of the narrative about who they were as a generation. I do think it's been missing from the analysis of where we are now. Pervasive nihilism and ambivalence to voting is blatant in a lot of media and pop culture interviews from the late 80s. Being interested in politics or believing in the process was inherently uncool to many people, and stuff like Rock the Vote or Clinton playing sax did little to change that AFAICT.
posted by aspersioncast at 12:54 PM on November 2, 2020
I don't know that it was missed at the time; I feel like that was part of the narrative about who they were as a generation. I do think it's been missing from the analysis of where we are now. Pervasive nihilism and ambivalence to voting is blatant in a lot of media and pop culture interviews from the late 80s. Being interested in politics or believing in the process was inherently uncool to many people, and stuff like Rock the Vote or Clinton playing sax did little to change that AFAICT.
posted by aspersioncast at 12:54 PM on November 2, 2020
but for a while there it was looking like there was more support of Trump among Gen X than Boomers
I don't know if it tracks to actual "more" than boomers, but the number I heard a few days ago was roughly 50% of GenX and it is 100% believable. Half my peers in (semi-rural but also college-town TX) high school were money- and status-obsessed Greed Is Good proto-yuppies or the sorta-redneck version of same, and both groups slammed headfirst into Prosperity Gospel/Big Box Churches in the 90s and haven't looked back since. There's definitely a nihilism there, of the "gotta get mine" variety. Probably at this point 50% of them are Trump voters because they worship money and 30% are trying to get the Rapture kicked off and the rest are fine with either because their guns and bunker pantries are loaded and ready. And at this point they're all on the cusp of the ageism/relevance career precipice and need to make that bank to make it to retirement (whereas the rest of us have known for a while we'll never get to do that).
Those splits probably skew a little different outside the South, but while we were kind of the loser generation comparatively, we didn't all come out sensitive nerds. Just, apparently, roughly half of us.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2020
I don't know if it tracks to actual "more" than boomers, but the number I heard a few days ago was roughly 50% of GenX and it is 100% believable. Half my peers in (semi-rural but also college-town TX) high school were money- and status-obsessed Greed Is Good proto-yuppies or the sorta-redneck version of same, and both groups slammed headfirst into Prosperity Gospel/Big Box Churches in the 90s and haven't looked back since. There's definitely a nihilism there, of the "gotta get mine" variety. Probably at this point 50% of them are Trump voters because they worship money and 30% are trying to get the Rapture kicked off and the rest are fine with either because their guns and bunker pantries are loaded and ready. And at this point they're all on the cusp of the ageism/relevance career precipice and need to make that bank to make it to retirement (whereas the rest of us have known for a while we'll never get to do that).
Those splits probably skew a little different outside the South, but while we were kind of the loser generation comparatively, we didn't all come out sensitive nerds. Just, apparently, roughly half of us.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2020
Probably at this point 50% of them are Trump voters because they worship money
Anecdata, of course, but here in the Midwest the GenX Trump voters I know who are not evangelicals tend to go with "low taxes" or "the economy" reasons. As in, GenXers are pretty much at their career peaks, earning as much money as they ever will, so they're particularly susceptible to those arguments. (And have not examined the idea that a lifetime of income insecurity - caused by Republican policies and ideas - has made them that way.)
(Setting aside the systemic/unexamined racism/sexism co-morbidities that are also present.)
posted by soundguy99 at 3:53 PM on November 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Anecdata, of course, but here in the Midwest the GenX Trump voters I know who are not evangelicals tend to go with "low taxes" or "the economy" reasons. As in, GenXers are pretty much at their career peaks, earning as much money as they ever will, so they're particularly susceptible to those arguments. (And have not examined the idea that a lifetime of income insecurity - caused by Republican policies and ideas - has made them that way.)
(Setting aside the systemic/unexamined racism/sexism co-morbidities that are also present.)
posted by soundguy99 at 3:53 PM on November 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
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John attributes his father’s slowing mental faculties to his decades of alcohol and opioid use.
Burying the lede a bit...
posted by Melismata at 10:47 AM on October 30, 2020 [27 favorites]