Barack Obama: I’m Not Yet Ready to Abandon the Possibility of America.
November 12, 2020 8:50 AM Subscribe
An excerpt from Barack Obama's book, A Promised Land. (SL The Atlantic)
And the NY Times review by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. "It is fair to say this: not for Barack Obama the unexamined life. ... And yet for all his ruthless self-assessment, there is very little of what the best memoirs bring: true self-revelation. ... He is a man watching himself watch himself, curiously puritanical in his skepticism, turning to see every angle and possibly dissatisfied with all, and genetically incapable of being an ideologue. ... Here, then, is an overwhelmingly decent man giving an honest account of himself."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:30 AM on November 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 9:30 AM on November 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
Yah, I was reading the NYT review this morning.
Excerpt:
"He is a conflicted and sometimes reluctant participant in politics, a man who feels increasingly lonely as the size of his crowds swells, an unlikely leader with both a bohemian distrust of established politics and a realist’s resignation to it."
Alternative headline:
OBAMA INCREASINGLY ISOLATED!
posted by kaibutsu at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Excerpt:
"He is a conflicted and sometimes reluctant participant in politics, a man who feels increasingly lonely as the size of his crowds swells, an unlikely leader with both a bohemian distrust of established politics and a realist’s resignation to it."
Alternative headline:
OBAMA INCREASINGLY ISOLATED!
posted by kaibutsu at 9:35 AM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
On the 44 remix of One Last Time they had Barack Obama read part of Washington's farewell address:
I cannot wait to buy his memoirs.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:37 AM on November 12, 2020 [31 favorites]
Though, in reviewing the incidents of my administration, I am unconscious of intentional error, I am nevertheless too sensible of my defects not to think it probable that I may have committed many errors. I shall also carry with me the hope that my country will them with indulgence; and that, after forty five years of my life dedicated to its service with an upright zeal, the faults of incompetent abilities will be consigned to oblivion, as myself must soon be to the mansions of rest.One of the things about Obama is that you know he meant absolutely every one of those words as he read them. I know leftists will snark about his obedience to western imperialism but geopolitics is not a simple machine. I think (know?) he made every decision he made with only the best intentions of his fellow country people in mind, even at the expense of others where things may not be a zero sum game.
I anticipate with pleasing expectation that retreat in which I promise myself to realize, the sweet enjoyment of partaking, in the midst of my fellow-citizens, the benign influence of good laws under a free government, the ever-favorite object of my heart, and the happy reward, as I trust, of our mutual cares, labors, and dangers.
I cannot wait to buy his memoirs.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:37 AM on November 12, 2020 [31 favorites]
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=xFCo is an important graph to understand about the failure of the Obama Admin's trifecta win of 2009-2010.
blue line is # of workers, dotted line is notional full employment reached during the Dotcom boom and again immediately prior to COVID.
ARRA arrested the fall but did not give us the "V" recovery needed before the midterm -- there was still a gap of 17 million missing jobs in 11/2010 (in September this year it was 11M, not counting the substantial gig-worker underemployment), 15M 11/2012, and 7M 11/2016.
The Fed doubled its balance sheet in a late attempt to save McCain's bid and that was about it for Fed monetary policy until after the midterms. The QE2 wave came in 2011 and QE3 was saved until Obama's 2nd term:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=xFI7 (year-on-year growth in Fed assets aka "printing")
The tail end of the above graph shows what the Fed is capable of doing when they put their minds to it.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
blue line is # of workers, dotted line is notional full employment reached during the Dotcom boom and again immediately prior to COVID.
ARRA arrested the fall but did not give us the "V" recovery needed before the midterm -- there was still a gap of 17 million missing jobs in 11/2010 (in September this year it was 11M, not counting the substantial gig-worker underemployment), 15M 11/2012, and 7M 11/2016.
The Fed doubled its balance sheet in a late attempt to save McCain's bid and that was about it for Fed monetary policy until after the midterms. The QE2 wave came in 2011 and QE3 was saved until Obama's 2nd term:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=xFI7 (year-on-year growth in Fed assets aka "printing")
The tail end of the above graph shows what the Fed is capable of doing when they put their minds to it.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
That he made his decisions with only the best intentions of his fellow country people in mind says it all, doesn't it?
Obama is a tragic figure at best. The endless liberal worship is so depressing and speaks to just how limited Western analysis of white supremacy really is and how deeply complicit all these systems are in the brutalization of people of color inside and outside America.
Will there be chapters on the cages he built? The villages he leveled? I would be very much interested in reading that. I don't understand his reticence either; it's not like he will ever be held accountable for his atrocities anyway.
Leftist snark indeed.
posted by Ouverture at 9:57 AM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
Obama is a tragic figure at best. The endless liberal worship is so depressing and speaks to just how limited Western analysis of white supremacy really is and how deeply complicit all these systems are in the brutalization of people of color inside and outside America.
Will there be chapters on the cages he built? The villages he leveled? I would be very much interested in reading that. I don't understand his reticence either; it's not like he will ever be held accountable for his atrocities anyway.
Leftist snark indeed.
posted by Ouverture at 9:57 AM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
https://imgur.com/zXvGWex
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
Leftist snark indeed.
Whoever said any US President is perfect (besides DJT of course)?
posted by Chickenring at 10:01 AM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
Whoever said any US President is perfect (besides DJT of course)?
posted by Chickenring at 10:01 AM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
Whoever said any US President is perfect (besides DJT of course)?
I don't think anyone has said that nor do I expect that. However, I am extremely tired of the vast gap between the liberal/centrist worship of our first president of color and the material reality of his legacy on people of color. It is identity politics and partisanship at a particularly distressing angle.
Then again, this is the same sort of polite society that rehabilitates George W. Bush and David Frum.
posted by Ouverture at 10:06 AM on November 12, 2020 [14 favorites]
I don't think anyone has said that nor do I expect that. However, I am extremely tired of the vast gap between the liberal/centrist worship of our first president of color and the material reality of his legacy on people of color. It is identity politics and partisanship at a particularly distressing angle.
Then again, this is the same sort of polite society that rehabilitates George W. Bush and David Frum.
posted by Ouverture at 10:06 AM on November 12, 2020 [14 favorites]
Nobody is "worshipping" him, and your constant bad-faith "I guess I'm the only one here who cares about black and brown children being killed" in every fucking thread is getting really tiresome. Maybe you could sit this one out?
posted by neroli at 10:11 AM on November 12, 2020 [87 favorites]
posted by neroli at 10:11 AM on November 12, 2020 [87 favorites]
Nobody is "worshipping" him, and your constant bad-faith "I guess I'm the only one here who cares about black and brown children being killed" in every fucking thread is getting really tiresome. Maybe you could sit this one out?
Apologies, I don't mean to be so negative.
Looking at it creatively, Obama's most significant and positive legacy is his contribution to fighting climate change: the lack of economic recovery in America, his humane scaling up of immigrant deportation and refugee denial, and the mandatory mass de-industrialization of Yemen and Libya provided significant emissions reductions that helped offset the next four years of Trump's pro-climate change agenda.
posted by Ouverture at 10:15 AM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
Apologies, I don't mean to be so negative.
Looking at it creatively, Obama's most significant and positive legacy is his contribution to fighting climate change: the lack of economic recovery in America, his humane scaling up of immigrant deportation and refugee denial, and the mandatory mass de-industrialization of Yemen and Libya provided significant emissions reductions that helped offset the next four years of Trump's pro-climate change agenda.
posted by Ouverture at 10:15 AM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
I actually think there is a very interesting theory I made up, which is that people from underrepresented groups can only really succeed in straight politics by being centrists. That your existence is radical enough, you won't get very far if you are also radical, which is how we ended up with a not-very-radical DA as the first woman of color to ascend so high.
Like Ouverture, I think Obama was a bad president for what I wanted and even for a lot of his own goals (screwing up in 2010 and losing OFA momentum is a clear tactical error) and that makes me sad because I was so excited to see a biracial American elected in 2008. I learned a lot about the limits of identity politics. And I agree that a lot of liberal Obama worship is tiring, but what can ya do?
posted by dame at 10:23 AM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
Like Ouverture, I think Obama was a bad president for what I wanted and even for a lot of his own goals (screwing up in 2010 and losing OFA momentum is a clear tactical error) and that makes me sad because I was so excited to see a biracial American elected in 2008. I learned a lot about the limits of identity politics. And I agree that a lot of liberal Obama worship is tiring, but what can ya do?
posted by dame at 10:23 AM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
That he made his decisions with only the best intentions of his fellow country people in mind says it all, doesn't it?
That's literally the job description though?
It's fine to think nation-states are an obsolete concept that is harmful to humanity as a whole (I tend to agree!) but it's pretty unfair to lay the failings of "living in a system of nation-states" on any given leader of a nation-state, doing the job of leading that nation-state to the best of their ability. It's like being mad at the CEO of a corporation because they were too focused on profits; that's a flaw in the way our system of corporations is designed, not a flaw in that one particular CEO.
Thus the sensible way to evaluate presidents is in context, not against some abstract ideal of international world peace and the dismantling of the white supremacist patriarchy that they will inevitably fail to measure up to because that's not the job they're elected to do. Did Obama have flaws, even regarded in context? Absolutely. Did he fall well short of what I think he realistically could have achieved? Absolutely. Was he the best President of the United States of America we've had in my lifetime thus far? Absolutely.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:28 AM on November 12, 2020 [32 favorites]
That's literally the job description though?
It's fine to think nation-states are an obsolete concept that is harmful to humanity as a whole (I tend to agree!) but it's pretty unfair to lay the failings of "living in a system of nation-states" on any given leader of a nation-state, doing the job of leading that nation-state to the best of their ability. It's like being mad at the CEO of a corporation because they were too focused on profits; that's a flaw in the way our system of corporations is designed, not a flaw in that one particular CEO.
Thus the sensible way to evaluate presidents is in context, not against some abstract ideal of international world peace and the dismantling of the white supremacist patriarchy that they will inevitably fail to measure up to because that's not the job they're elected to do. Did Obama have flaws, even regarded in context? Absolutely. Did he fall well short of what I think he realistically could have achieved? Absolutely. Was he the best President of the United States of America we've had in my lifetime thus far? Absolutely.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:28 AM on November 12, 2020 [32 favorites]
Like Ouverture, I think Obama was a bad president for what I wanted and even for a lot of his own goals (screwing up in 2010 and losing OFA momentum is a clear tactical error) and that makes me sad because I was so excited to see a biracial American elected in 2008. I learned a lot about the limits of identity politics. And I agree that a lot of liberal Obama worship is tiring, but what can ya do?
Sigh, yeah. I consider the dismantling of OFA as one of the greatest mistakes made by Democrats in living memory. I still wonder what the 2010 midterms and subsequent races would have looked like if the grassroots machine still existed. Shit, I might still be a liberal.
One of Obama's greatest gifts to a whole lot of millennials, especially those of us who are QTPOC, was a clear demonstration of just how identity politics, collegiality, and gentle reforms can't take you. Hooray, we got gay marriage and a couple consent decrees, but trans kids are still starving and homeless and the cops are still beating and killing us.
For that knowledge, I am genuinely grateful.
posted by Ouverture at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
Sigh, yeah. I consider the dismantling of OFA as one of the greatest mistakes made by Democrats in living memory. I still wonder what the 2010 midterms and subsequent races would have looked like if the grassroots machine still existed. Shit, I might still be a liberal.
One of Obama's greatest gifts to a whole lot of millennials, especially those of us who are QTPOC, was a clear demonstration of just how identity politics, collegiality, and gentle reforms can't take you. Hooray, we got gay marriage and a couple consent decrees, but trans kids are still starving and homeless and the cops are still beating and killing us.
For that knowledge, I am genuinely grateful.
posted by Ouverture at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2020 [16 favorites]
Obama was Bush III in most regards but he was by far the least bad Bush I ever had to live under.
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:31 AM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:31 AM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
a tragic figure at best
This is, to be fair, the most positive leftist assessment of any US president.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:37 AM on November 12, 2020 [18 favorites]
This is, to be fair, the most positive leftist assessment of any US president.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:37 AM on November 12, 2020 [18 favorites]
It's no surprise that Trump's policy is terrible, because he's such a terrible person in the first place, but I'm fascinated by Obama because he seems to be such a good, decent person, yet his policy isn't.
posted by airmail at 10:40 AM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by airmail at 10:40 AM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
I see for some us here on the Blue that DJT failing to get re-elected is literally the worst possible outcome.
posted by sideshow at 10:45 AM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by sideshow at 10:45 AM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
To all of those questioning the Obama "worship" -
Please bear in mind that while Obama may not have been perfect, he was competent, and moreover seemed to respect the position itself - which is a far cry from the cockwomble who has occupied that office for the past four years.
What you are viewing as "worship" may simply be "Nostalgia" - not necessarily for Obama as such, but for "someone who knew what the fuck he was doing". You're dealing with traumatized people here, maybe dial back the "but Obama stunk" nitpicking just a scoche.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:48 AM on November 12, 2020 [66 favorites]
Please bear in mind that while Obama may not have been perfect, he was competent, and moreover seemed to respect the position itself - which is a far cry from the cockwomble who has occupied that office for the past four years.
What you are viewing as "worship" may simply be "Nostalgia" - not necessarily for Obama as such, but for "someone who knew what the fuck he was doing". You're dealing with traumatized people here, maybe dial back the "but Obama stunk" nitpicking just a scoche.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:48 AM on November 12, 2020 [66 favorites]
You realize that those of us critical of Obama from the left did not stop existing in the same universe as you when the Obama administration ceased and also probably dislike Trump?
I want more than competent and I'm not going to give up expecting it and being let down when it doesn't manifest. You don't have to agree with me but it's not a trauma-off where being sad makes other people unable to judge someone with questionable policies.
posted by dame at 10:54 AM on November 12, 2020 [21 favorites]
I want more than competent and I'm not going to give up expecting it and being let down when it doesn't manifest. You don't have to agree with me but it's not a trauma-off where being sad makes other people unable to judge someone with questionable policies.
posted by dame at 10:54 AM on November 12, 2020 [21 favorites]
On a slightly different note from the discussion so far, I am excited that I am #10 (!!) on the library hold list for this book at my local public library, since I realized in late September that it had quietly entered the catalog, even though the publication date wasn't until November.
I had in fact also immediately frozen the hold since I wasn't sure if I would be able to bear reading the book had Trump won a second term, but -- at least in my reality -- that hasn't happened.
Although I have a certain degree of skepticism about all political memoirs, including with political figures with whom I am basically in agreement, and don't ever expect them to be perfect (which is also my general take on Michelle Obama's Becoming) I do look forward to reading this, if only out of a sense of curiosity.
posted by andrewesque at 10:55 AM on November 12, 2020
I had in fact also immediately frozen the hold since I wasn't sure if I would be able to bear reading the book had Trump won a second term, but -- at least in my reality -- that hasn't happened.
Although I have a certain degree of skepticism about all political memoirs, including with political figures with whom I am basically in agreement, and don't ever expect them to be perfect (which is also my general take on Michelle Obama's Becoming) I do look forward to reading this, if only out of a sense of curiosity.
posted by andrewesque at 10:55 AM on November 12, 2020
I’m excited to read the memoirs of any person as engaged with and thoughtful about the world as Barack Obama, but especially his—I think the book will offer much to learn.
Hooray, we got gay marriage and a couple consent decrees, but trans kids are still starving and homeless and the cops are still beating and killing us.
I feel this, but if perfect is always the enemy of good, we will get nowhere. Gay marriage and the ACA are big fucking deals, and progress beyond those significant social welfare reforms is predicated on those first steps being accomplished.
That he made his decisions with only the best intentions of his fellow country people in mind says it all, doesn't it?
Just echoing the comment that mstokes650 made upthread: that’s literally the job he was elected to do. (Whether or not nation-states are a kind of political and economic organization that continues to be helpful or harmful is a separate question, but you can’t criticize a chess player who is playing chess for not playing racquetball.)
posted by LooseFilter at 10:56 AM on November 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
Hooray, we got gay marriage and a couple consent decrees, but trans kids are still starving and homeless and the cops are still beating and killing us.
I feel this, but if perfect is always the enemy of good, we will get nowhere. Gay marriage and the ACA are big fucking deals, and progress beyond those significant social welfare reforms is predicated on those first steps being accomplished.
That he made his decisions with only the best intentions of his fellow country people in mind says it all, doesn't it?
Just echoing the comment that mstokes650 made upthread: that’s literally the job he was elected to do. (Whether or not nation-states are a kind of political and economic organization that continues to be helpful or harmful is a separate question, but you can’t criticize a chess player who is playing chess for not playing racquetball.)
posted by LooseFilter at 10:56 AM on November 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
I would be fascinated to see Obama actually address some of the bad decisions he/his administration made and understand the actual mechanisms that led to them. It's annoying for the left criticism to be met with "oh it's more complicated than that, it's not a zero-sum game, it's not that simple, actually he was very competent, etc" - okay, fine, explain exactly why it's not that simple if you're gonna be all about "examining your legacy" and "transparency".
Explain the players involved and the obstruction that was faced and walk us through a post-mortem of how a "competent" decision came to be, one that led to record-breaking deportation numbers or murdered civilians in Yemen or traveling to Flint, MI to fake-drink the water and tell everyone to shut the fuck up. Listen, I get that every President is technically a murderer in some sense, and am sure there are some Powers That Be that are just greater than any single President - I am sure even Bernie Sanders would have faced some of this were he miraculously elected.
I'm just saying that I'd like to learn more about those powers that be and in greater detail, and if you're gonna be Mr. Decent Honest Self-Reflection Transparency President, then maybe give critics something more than patronizing "no, activists just don't get it, it's not that simple, this is a long game", etc which is the spiel that Obama and his more liberal fans seem to push back with. It's annoying. It's more annoying to me personally than people who come into internet threads pointing out Obama's flaws, but everyone's got their passion points I guess.
posted by windbox at 10:59 AM on November 12, 2020 [38 favorites]
Explain the players involved and the obstruction that was faced and walk us through a post-mortem of how a "competent" decision came to be, one that led to record-breaking deportation numbers or murdered civilians in Yemen or traveling to Flint, MI to fake-drink the water and tell everyone to shut the fuck up. Listen, I get that every President is technically a murderer in some sense, and am sure there are some Powers That Be that are just greater than any single President - I am sure even Bernie Sanders would have faced some of this were he miraculously elected.
I'm just saying that I'd like to learn more about those powers that be and in greater detail, and if you're gonna be Mr. Decent Honest Self-Reflection Transparency President, then maybe give critics something more than patronizing "no, activists just don't get it, it's not that simple, this is a long game", etc which is the spiel that Obama and his more liberal fans seem to push back with. It's annoying. It's more annoying to me personally than people who come into internet threads pointing out Obama's flaws, but everyone's got their passion points I guess.
posted by windbox at 10:59 AM on November 12, 2020 [38 favorites]
I see for some us here on the Blue that DJT failing to get re-elected is literally the worst possible outcome.
This is inflammatory nonsense and is making the thread significantly worse.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:02 AM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
I fell for Obama hard during his first run. He's so smart and so thoughtful. I read both of his books and the depth of analysis he can do is amazing. I know the proposal to make him a Supreme Court Justice has come up, mainly to piss off the Republicans, but he honestly would be pretty great at it.
What I don't get is this: How can this guy have brainworms to the point he just gets rolled by Mitch McConnell and the Republicans over and over again? Does he not see what they are doing or does he think they'll transcend it? Was it toxic exposure to Aaron Sorkin and The West Wing at an early age?
Even in the health care excerpt, he seems more bitter about the left not liking him removing the public option for the sake of compromise than the right-wing spending 8 years calling him a Kenyan Muslim Commie Nazi. I get that white voters and conservatives don't like being called racists even if they are, but you're not going to win them over by being "the nice black guy" when they hate black guys.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:02 AM on November 12, 2020 [24 favorites]
What I don't get is this: How can this guy have brainworms to the point he just gets rolled by Mitch McConnell and the Republicans over and over again? Does he not see what they are doing or does he think they'll transcend it? Was it toxic exposure to Aaron Sorkin and The West Wing at an early age?
Even in the health care excerpt, he seems more bitter about the left not liking him removing the public option for the sake of compromise than the right-wing spending 8 years calling him a Kenyan Muslim Commie Nazi. I get that white voters and conservatives don't like being called racists even if they are, but you're not going to win them over by being "the nice black guy" when they hate black guys.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:02 AM on November 12, 2020 [24 favorites]
I am sure even Bernie Sanders would have faced some of this were he miraculously elected
Absolutely. A common refrain during the first, hopeful stretch of the primaries was: "I can't wait to rail against President Bernie Sanders!" I'm still sometimes wistful about the infinitely better leftist snarking that might have been...
posted by Beardman at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Absolutely. A common refrain during the first, hopeful stretch of the primaries was: "I can't wait to rail against President Bernie Sanders!" I'm still sometimes wistful about the infinitely better leftist snarking that might have been...
posted by Beardman at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
What Obama did, could have done, and what we would have liked him to do is one conversation - from where I stand even if you think he did all he could do under the circumstances that lands him a bit in “tragic figure” territory.
But I know a lot of my personal irritation with glowing praise of Obama post-presidency has to do with a feeling that he, the genuine Democratic political star of the past, uh, 20 years, hasn’t really made that much of post-presidency as far as offering vision to hang a party on?
What you are viewing as "worship" may simply be "Nostalgia"
100 percent but nostalgia is often a force for ill.
posted by atoxyl at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
But I know a lot of my personal irritation with glowing praise of Obama post-presidency has to do with a feeling that he, the genuine Democratic political star of the past, uh, 20 years, hasn’t really made that much of post-presidency as far as offering vision to hang a party on?
What you are viewing as "worship" may simply be "Nostalgia"
100 percent but nostalgia is often a force for ill.
posted by atoxyl at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
You don't have to agree with me but it's not a trauma-off where being sad makes other people unable to judge someone with questionable policies.
Fine.
Hey, bluesky43, would it be possible to make another about this article for the people who want to discuss the article, so that this thread can be for rehashing the imperfections of his legacy? Thanks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:10 AM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]
Fine.
Hey, bluesky43, would it be possible to make another about this article for the people who want to discuss the article, so that this thread can be for rehashing the imperfections of his legacy? Thanks.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:10 AM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]
That's literally the job description though?
Certainly! But even if I adopt the lens of only considering Obama's legacy as it relates only to Americans, the Obama years do not indicate any sort of preternatural competency for politics or long-lasting material success to actually celebrate.
Most people's lives did not get materially better in those 8 years. The economy came back, but the workers did not. There were small victories for sure, but god, the long-term structural failures, particularly on the level of winning elections, for both Obama and the Democrats are damning (and we are still suffering through them).
As Ta-Nehisi Coates has talked about before, it is a real sublime form of unaccountability to take credit for all the good things you did (ACA, gay marriage, consent decrees), but then disavow all the bad things you also did because that's just how the system is (take your pick).
As windbox mentioned, I would love to read a book about all that mess and tragedy. When will Obama write it?
posted by Ouverture at 11:12 AM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
Certainly! But even if I adopt the lens of only considering Obama's legacy as it relates only to Americans, the Obama years do not indicate any sort of preternatural competency for politics or long-lasting material success to actually celebrate.
Most people's lives did not get materially better in those 8 years. The economy came back, but the workers did not. There were small victories for sure, but god, the long-term structural failures, particularly on the level of winning elections, for both Obama and the Democrats are damning (and we are still suffering through them).
As Ta-Nehisi Coates has talked about before, it is a real sublime form of unaccountability to take credit for all the good things you did (ACA, gay marriage, consent decrees), but then disavow all the bad things you also did because that's just how the system is (take your pick).
As windbox mentioned, I would love to read a book about all that mess and tragedy. When will Obama write it?
posted by Ouverture at 11:12 AM on November 12, 2020 [9 favorites]
Do we care to match the reality of America to its ideals? If so, do we really believe that our notions of self-government and individual freedom, equality of opportunity and equality before the law, apply to everybody? Or are we instead committed, in practice if not in statute, to reserving those things for a privileged few?posted by box at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
I recognize that there are those who believe that it’s time to discard the myth—that an examination of America’s past and an even cursory glance at today’s headlines show that this nation’s ideals have always been secondary to conquest and subjugation, a racial caste system and rapacious capitalism, and that to pretend otherwise is to be complicit in a game that was rigged from the start.
....
I’ve learned to place my faith in my fellow citizens, especially those of the next generation, whose conviction in the equal worth of all people seems to come as second nature, and who insist on making real those principles that their parents and teachers told them were true but that they perhaps never fully believed themselves.
which is a far cry from the cockwomble who has occupied that office for the past four years.
And the one who occupied it for the eight years before Obama got there.
We could have elected fucking Superman in 2008 and he still would have had to spend eight years just shoveling shit get us back to where we should have been ten years earlier. Especially with the constant obstructionism from the Srnate.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:30 AM on November 12, 2020 [15 favorites]
And the one who occupied it for the eight years before Obama got there.
We could have elected fucking Superman in 2008 and he still would have had to spend eight years just shoveling shit get us back to where we should have been ten years earlier. Especially with the constant obstructionism from the Srnate.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:30 AM on November 12, 2020 [15 favorites]
I’ve learned to place my faith in my fellow citizens, especially those of the next generation, whose conviction in the equal worth of all people seems to come as second nature, and who insist on making real those principles that their parents and teachers told them were true but that they perhaps never fully believed themselves.
I’m part of the generation after Obama’s and we are already saying this about the generation after us.
posted by atoxyl at 11:34 AM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
I’m part of the generation after Obama’s and we are already saying this about the generation after us.
posted by atoxyl at 11:34 AM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
> Even in the health care excerpt, he seems more bitter about the left not liking him removing the public option for the sake of compromise than the right-wing spending 8 years calling him a Kenyan Muslim Commie Nazi.
How is this any different than how extremely online leftists spend most of their time complaining about neoliberal centrist sellout Democrats instead of attacking Trump and the GOP? Their defense is always "of course the Republicans are awful, but I can't persuade them." And that applies here. Obama had to fight tooth and nail to get the 60 votes required to override the ACA filibuster, and he had to do it in a narrow window of time. He had to get a plan that Democrat* Joe Lieberman would support -- the same Joe Lieberman who is speaking out now in favor of Donald Trump. Of course he was primarily concerned with his own troops, not those of the enemy.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:07 PM on November 12, 2020 [22 favorites]
How is this any different than how extremely online leftists spend most of their time complaining about neoliberal centrist sellout Democrats instead of attacking Trump and the GOP? Their defense is always "of course the Republicans are awful, but I can't persuade them." And that applies here. Obama had to fight tooth and nail to get the 60 votes required to override the ACA filibuster, and he had to do it in a narrow window of time. He had to get a plan that Democrat* Joe Lieberman would support -- the same Joe Lieberman who is speaking out now in favor of Donald Trump. Of course he was primarily concerned with his own troops, not those of the enemy.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:07 PM on November 12, 2020 [22 favorites]
How is this any different than how extremely online leftists spend most of their time complaining about neoliberal centrist sellout Democrats instead of attacking Trump and the GOP?
he was the President of the United States of America
posted by invitapriore at 12:23 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
he was the President of the United States of America
posted by invitapriore at 12:23 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
> he was the President of the United States of America
So he was supposed to, what, send US Marshalls in to arrest and detain Senate Republicans so they couldn't execute their record-shattering number of filibusters? I obviously wasn't comparing the power of Alice Jacobin or Bob Chapo to the power of the President, rather, I was suggesting that the same calculus applies in terms of having more possibility of persuading people who are closer to you on the ideological spectrum than those who would happily see you sent to the gulags.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:27 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
So he was supposed to, what, send US Marshalls in to arrest and detain Senate Republicans so they couldn't execute their record-shattering number of filibusters? I obviously wasn't comparing the power of Alice Jacobin or Bob Chapo to the power of the President, rather, I was suggesting that the same calculus applies in terms of having more possibility of persuading people who are closer to you on the ideological spectrum than those who would happily see you sent to the gulags.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:27 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
I obviously wasn't comparing the power of Alice Jacobin or Bob Chapo to the power of the President, rather, I was suggesting that the same calculus having more possibility of persuading people who are closer to you on the ideological spectrum than those who would happily see you sent to the gulags.
And I'm suggesting that the vacuity of saying that the situations are comparable so long as you ignore the obvious and massive asymmetry of circumstances is a good sign that this isn't a useful framing.
posted by invitapriore at 12:31 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
And I'm suggesting that the vacuity of saying that the situations are comparable so long as you ignore the obvious and massive asymmetry of circumstances is a good sign that this isn't a useful framing.
posted by invitapriore at 12:31 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I actually think there is a very interesting theory I made up, which is that people from underrepresented groups can only really succeed in straight politics by being centrists. That your existence is radical enough, you won't get very far if you are also radical, which is how we ended up with a not-very-radical DA as the first woman of color to ascend so high.
This is absolutely true, and in fact I had the same experience where it felt like I came up with the idea. And the fact that both of us came up with this idea, rather than hearing it from others, I think says a lot about the inability of the left to reflect on racism in a way that doesn't make them the heroes.
posted by chernoffhoeffding at 12:31 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
This is absolutely true, and in fact I had the same experience where it felt like I came up with the idea. And the fact that both of us came up with this idea, rather than hearing it from others, I think says a lot about the inability of the left to reflect on racism in a way that doesn't make them the heroes.
posted by chernoffhoeffding at 12:31 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
So he was supposed to, what, send US Marshalls in to arrest and detain Senate Republicans so they couldn't execute their record-shattering number of filibusters?
When I posted I wasn't even talking about what he failed to do because he was obstructed, I'm talking about things that he deliberately chose to do for...reasons that are apparently "complicated" and shouldn't matter because he was technically the best president of our lifetime. The mass deportations, the extrajudicial murder, fucking the people of Flint, MI - this wasn't obstruction. These were decisions he made and I'm curious as to how he came to them, the people and bureaucracy and machinations involved, and what he seriously thinks of the outcomes. Instead we just get "nah, you don't understand" finger wagging. It's disappointing! It's disappointing because he's supposed to be President Smart Guy Dignity Man! It also sucks because every president is probably going to do this shit, even a mythical Sanders or Warren would have, and I think people deserve more than what is the equivalent to "well this is just grown up business so you children can just shut up".
posted by windbox at 12:37 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
When I posted I wasn't even talking about what he failed to do because he was obstructed, I'm talking about things that he deliberately chose to do for...reasons that are apparently "complicated" and shouldn't matter because he was technically the best president of our lifetime. The mass deportations, the extrajudicial murder, fucking the people of Flint, MI - this wasn't obstruction. These were decisions he made and I'm curious as to how he came to them, the people and bureaucracy and machinations involved, and what he seriously thinks of the outcomes. Instead we just get "nah, you don't understand" finger wagging. It's disappointing! It's disappointing because he's supposed to be President Smart Guy Dignity Man! It also sucks because every president is probably going to do this shit, even a mythical Sanders or Warren would have, and I think people deserve more than what is the equivalent to "well this is just grown up business so you children can just shut up".
posted by windbox at 12:37 PM on November 12, 2020 [23 favorites]
Well, I'm not a rich ex president, so I don't have the option of "abandoning America." I'll live and die here, as will my family, friends, and loved ones. I get that he's referring to the national myth and/or religion of American uniqueness though: that somehow a bunch of agrarian landowners not yet into the industrial age bequeathed a unique world historical vision still playing out in the form of an "arch of history bending toward justice."
I don't know if that's true, but I do know that whatever arch exists won't bend on its own, and it won't continue to bend without the kind of "leftists" metafilter hates. Great to see the attempted silencing though. I'd be mad if it wasn't for the fact that it was completely expected.
The rest of 20's are going to be a fun decade ....
posted by eagles123 at 12:37 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
I don't know if that's true, but I do know that whatever arch exists won't bend on its own, and it won't continue to bend without the kind of "leftists" metafilter hates. Great to see the attempted silencing though. I'd be mad if it wasn't for the fact that it was completely expected.
The rest of 20's are going to be a fun decade ....
posted by eagles123 at 12:37 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
> And I'm suggesting that the vacuity of saying that the situations are comparable so long as you ignore the obvious and massive asymmetry of circumstances is a good sign that this isn't a useful framing.
Right, which is why I pointed out that Obama's Presidential power did fuck-all for him against his ideological opponents. We're not talking about an individual leftist's power to stop drone-bombing weddings here, we're talking about the power to win an argument and convince the other side.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:38 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Right, which is why I pointed out that Obama's Presidential power did fuck-all for him against his ideological opponents. We're not talking about an individual leftist's power to stop drone-bombing weddings here, we're talking about the power to win an argument and convince the other side.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:38 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
> Great to see the attempted silencing though.
This must be the Bari Weiss definition of "silencing".
posted by tonycpsu at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
This must be the Bari Weiss definition of "silencing".
posted by tonycpsu at 12:44 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
Let us not forget that to be "good" and to helm an empire is a contradiction.
posted by klanawa at 12:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 12:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
we're talking about the power to win an argument and convince the other side.
This phrasing is useful – nobody had more faith than Obama in the capability of reasoned debate to convince the other side. He believed that the Boehners and McConnells and Blue Dog Democrats could be reasoned with, that there was an argument to be had between these political actors, and if you won that argument, that's how change occurred.
But the disappointing Obama years, and the odious Trump years that came after, prove that there's no point trying to persuade the right wing politicians of either party. What will defeat the right, if anything does, won't be a conversion moment following a brilliant Sorkinesque speech by the next Obama. It will be the power that comes from overwhelming demands made by the people.
This obviously isn't a novel suggestion – that meaningful political change in America comes from the bottom up, not the top down – but I think it took Obama for many of us to really grasp the truth of it.
posted by Beardman at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [29 favorites]
This phrasing is useful – nobody had more faith than Obama in the capability of reasoned debate to convince the other side. He believed that the Boehners and McConnells and Blue Dog Democrats could be reasoned with, that there was an argument to be had between these political actors, and if you won that argument, that's how change occurred.
But the disappointing Obama years, and the odious Trump years that came after, prove that there's no point trying to persuade the right wing politicians of either party. What will defeat the right, if anything does, won't be a conversion moment following a brilliant Sorkinesque speech by the next Obama. It will be the power that comes from overwhelming demands made by the people.
This obviously isn't a novel suggestion – that meaningful political change in America comes from the bottom up, not the top down – but I think it took Obama for many of us to really grasp the truth of it.
posted by Beardman at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [29 favorites]
This must be the Bari Weiss definition of "silencing".
Cheap shot. Getting told to shut up is the equivalent of getting punched in the face on this site. I've posted here long enough to know that.
posted by eagles123 at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Cheap shot. Getting told to shut up is the equivalent of getting punched in the face on this site. I've posted here long enough to know that.
posted by eagles123 at 12:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
> Cheap shot. Getting told to shut up is the equivalent of getting punched in the face on this site. I've posted here long enough to know that.
Being asked to support your claims isn't being told to shut up. Being asked to articulate (as windbox did eloquently above) the difference between things that were directly within his power and things that he had to overcome obstruction from isn't being told to shut up. I am happy to have the discussion about the many ways in which he was a disappointment, but when people are blaming him for not having effected lasting change because so much of his change was undone by Trump's presidency, I feel like there's a communication disconnect that's going to be difficult to overcome.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
Being asked to support your claims isn't being told to shut up. Being asked to articulate (as windbox did eloquently above) the difference between things that were directly within his power and things that he had to overcome obstruction from isn't being told to shut up. I am happy to have the discussion about the many ways in which he was a disappointment, but when people are blaming him for not having effected lasting change because so much of his change was undone by Trump's presidency, I feel like there's a communication disconnect that's going to be difficult to overcome.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:05 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
"Maybe sit one out, you're take is upsetting me," isn't exactly an invitation to a nuanced discussion. On a site where "let marginalized voices be heard" is holy writ, its like going to church and watching the congregation burn the bibles and piss in the holy water.
Personally I find it sad, but somewhat hilarious in a gallows humor sort of way. And not unexpected.
posted by eagles123 at 1:08 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Personally I find it sad, but somewhat hilarious in a gallows humor sort of way. And not unexpected.
posted by eagles123 at 1:08 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
That your existence is radical enough, you won't get very far if you are also radical
I mean, he was treated as a secret political radical from the beginning, for more or less the reasons discussed here*. But what are they gonna do if he moves six inches to the left - treat him as a secret double political radical? I’m inclined to believe that Obama thought he could really cross that divide, which is part of the “tragic figure” framing. I find a lot of things about his presidency and life afterwards understandable and sympathetic on a personal level but it doesn’t make them not a political disappointment.
* another thing here about the Left’s disillusionment with Obama - I’m sure I’m not the only one who wanted that version of Obama to be real back when I voted for him in 2008, even though I probably knew better even then.
posted by atoxyl at 1:16 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
I mean, he was treated as a secret political radical from the beginning, for more or less the reasons discussed here*. But what are they gonna do if he moves six inches to the left - treat him as a secret double political radical? I’m inclined to believe that Obama thought he could really cross that divide, which is part of the “tragic figure” framing. I find a lot of things about his presidency and life afterwards understandable and sympathetic on a personal level but it doesn’t make them not a political disappointment.
* another thing here about the Left’s disillusionment with Obama - I’m sure I’m not the only one who wanted that version of Obama to be real back when I voted for him in 2008, even though I probably knew better even then.
posted by atoxyl at 1:16 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
What I don't get is this: How can this guy have brainworms to the point he just gets rolled by Mitch McConnell and the Republicans over and over again?
The Republicans, fueled and pushed by Fox News, started getting really bad at this time, becoming much more strident and disingenuous. Additionally Barack Obama was a man with a strong sense of how America "should" work, from both being a Constitutional law professor and a senator who was mentored (this is from memory) by John McCain. For McCain's faults he wasn't a traditional Republican. This may have left him ill prepared for the Republicans to just start throwing out all their norms, and replacing their brains with a paper tape on a spool reading BASE... BASE... BASE.
posted by JHarris at 1:22 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Republicans, fueled and pushed by Fox News, started getting really bad at this time, becoming much more strident and disingenuous. Additionally Barack Obama was a man with a strong sense of how America "should" work, from both being a Constitutional law professor and a senator who was mentored (this is from memory) by John McCain. For McCain's faults he wasn't a traditional Republican. This may have left him ill prepared for the Republicans to just start throwing out all their norms, and replacing their brains with a paper tape on a spool reading BASE... BASE... BASE.
posted by JHarris at 1:22 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
_another thing here about the Left’s disillusionment with Obama - I’m sure I’m not the only one who wanted that version of Obama to be real back when I voted for him in 2008, even though I probably knew better even then._
I think this is a really interesting point. I remember when he spoke at the convention in 04 (?) and it was like, oh boring centrist don't care. Then when he ran, there was much more of the Hope and Change and I think we all went with it. Probably because we wanted it to be true.
posted by dame at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think this is a really interesting point. I remember when he spoke at the convention in 04 (?) and it was like, oh boring centrist don't care. Then when he ran, there was much more of the Hope and Change and I think we all went with it. Probably because we wanted it to be true.
posted by dame at 1:27 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
I read the comments before I read the article, and now I am really confused by the discussion.
Personally, I might agree that Obama is a tragic figure in US history. BUT, to me it seems that he acknowledges that. He wills himself to remain hopefull, against the reality. This is something I need, on a personal level.
Democracy means that a huge part of any given population are against you, even if you won the election. You must compromise, give up on some important issues, act nice when you are angry. Trump has tried to do for the right what some of us wanted Obama to do for the left, and he has accomplished as little (or much). If you don't accept that aspect of democracy, you are not truly a democrat.
If you are engaged in politics, the worst thing is perhaps not your actual opponents, with whom you share a passion, if not the direction. The worst thing is all of those people who do not care, and who prefer the status quo because their imagination cannot reach to something better.
Also, the emergence of the Tea Party and with it the reemergence of explicit racism in American politics and the radicalization of the Republican Party had to be a surprise for the first African American president. After all, he was elected. And he didn't just stand on the shoulders of Democratic heroes. The Bush administration had top officials of color and with great authority. He had all the reasons to believe he could assume the authority of the presidency just like everyone before him.
I'm broke right now because I haven't gotten my pay for September and October (because of corona-stuff). When I get it, I will buy this book.
posted by mumimor at 1:38 PM on November 12, 2020 [29 favorites]
Personally, I might agree that Obama is a tragic figure in US history. BUT, to me it seems that he acknowledges that. He wills himself to remain hopefull, against the reality. This is something I need, on a personal level.
Democracy means that a huge part of any given population are against you, even if you won the election. You must compromise, give up on some important issues, act nice when you are angry. Trump has tried to do for the right what some of us wanted Obama to do for the left, and he has accomplished as little (or much). If you don't accept that aspect of democracy, you are not truly a democrat.
If you are engaged in politics, the worst thing is perhaps not your actual opponents, with whom you share a passion, if not the direction. The worst thing is all of those people who do not care, and who prefer the status quo because their imagination cannot reach to something better.
Also, the emergence of the Tea Party and with it the reemergence of explicit racism in American politics and the radicalization of the Republican Party had to be a surprise for the first African American president. After all, he was elected. And he didn't just stand on the shoulders of Democratic heroes. The Bush administration had top officials of color and with great authority. He had all the reasons to believe he could assume the authority of the presidency just like everyone before him.
I'm broke right now because I haven't gotten my pay for September and October (because of corona-stuff). When I get it, I will buy this book.
posted by mumimor at 1:38 PM on November 12, 2020 [29 favorites]
> "Maybe sit one out, you're take is upsetting me," isn't exactly an invitation to a nuanced discussion. On a site where "let marginalized voices be heard" is holy writ, its like going to church and watching the congregation burn the bibles and piss in the holy water.
That particular voice has been heard, and heard, and heard again on the topic of how repugnant and complicit liberals are, to the point where it can't be accurately described as marginalized.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:40 PM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
That particular voice has been heard, and heard, and heard again on the topic of how repugnant and complicit liberals are, to the point where it can't be accurately described as marginalized.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:40 PM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
I feel like the biggest tragedy and failure of Obama's presidency was the trust he put into established systems, norms, and mores of governance. It seems like he was woefully unprepared for both the GOP's willingness to obstruct, defy, and throw steel rods into the machinery of government. Had he been just a little more willing to strike back at the bullying tactics of the GOP, we might be in a much different, much better place four years after his last term.
posted by SansPoint at 1:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 1:42 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
That's really ultra-level marginalizing because neoliberals are good at not listening to leftists. So the fact that some of us here are perceived to have some sort of shtick is precisely what a neoliberal does to intellectually reframe and insulate themselves from leftist thought. It is in denying marginalizing that those very same words further marginalization. People not feeling heard is the point here, that is the form of marginalizing taking place and if people applied the same concepts of social justice to God forbid class analysis this is totally obvious, just not to people behaving neoliberally.
posted by polymodus at 1:44 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 1:44 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
> neoliberals are good at not listening to leftists
I don't know any MeFites here who identify as neoliberals. If you're going to castigate others for marginalizing, maybe use the labels we used to describe ourselves and not the one that's been so heavily weaponized.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
I don't know any MeFites here who identify as neoliberals. If you're going to castigate others for marginalizing, maybe use the labels we used to describe ourselves and not the one that's been so heavily weaponized.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [10 favorites]
I won't do that in the same way I won't call racists not racists.
Let's be clear, I too am neoliberal and enjoy various neoliberal privileges. This is a key difference.
posted by polymodus at 1:55 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Let's be clear, I too am neoliberal and enjoy various neoliberal privileges. This is a key difference.
posted by polymodus at 1:55 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think this is a really interesting point. I remember when he spoke at the convention in 04 (?) and it was like, oh boring centrist don't care. Then when he ran, there was much more of the Hope and Change and I think we all went with it. Probably because we wanted it to be true.
It’s funny because maybe he wasn’t really the one who sold it. Remember him being the second most liberal member of the Senate? Or was it the most liberal? And the Saul Alinsky connection! And Bill Ayers! And Jeremiah Wright! College-aged me definitely secretly wished that Obama secretly was the tenured radical type he was made out to be.
posted by atoxyl at 2:01 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
It’s funny because maybe he wasn’t really the one who sold it. Remember him being the second most liberal member of the Senate? Or was it the most liberal? And the Saul Alinsky connection! And Bill Ayers! And Jeremiah Wright! College-aged me definitely secretly wished that Obama secretly was the tenured radical type he was made out to be.
posted by atoxyl at 2:01 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
As someone who never had insurance a day in her adult life until the ACA, and someone whose immediate family was completely excluded from all useful coverage due to pre-existing conditions prior to the ACA, I admit to getting my hackles raised when people are like PUH SHAW the ACA that's fucking NOTHING.
The world is super easy to break and incredibly difficult to build. But nobody remembers that when the chips are down.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2020 [69 favorites]
The world is super easy to break and incredibly difficult to build. But nobody remembers that when the chips are down.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2020 [69 favorites]
I read something a few years back, I think it may have been an interview with one of Obama's speechwriters. I don't remember it exactly. It did leave me with a strong impression of Obama's resigned brand of skepticism. I can't find that piece right now, but this 2018 NYT interview with Ben Rhodes evokes the sort of mood:
posted by dmh at 2:08 PM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]
In “The Final Year,” a new documentary that focusses on Obama’s foreign policy at the end of his Presidency, Trump’s victory leaves Rhodes unable to speak for almost a full minute. It had been inconceivable, like the repeal of a law of nature—not just because of who Trump was but also because of who Obama was. Rhodes and Obama briefly sought refuge in the high-mindedness of the long view—“Progress doesn’t move in a straight line,” Rhodes messaged his boss on Election Night, a reference to one of Obama’s own sayings, which the President then revived for the occasion: “History doesn’t move in a straight line, it zigs and zags.” But that was not much consolation. On Obama’s last trip abroad, he sat quietly with Rhodes in the Beast as they passed the cheering Peruvian crowds. “What if we were wrong?” Obama suddenly asked. Rhodes didn’t know what he meant. “Maybe we pushed too far. Maybe people just want to fall back into their tribe.” Obama took the thought to its natural conclusion: “Sometimes I wonder whether I was ten or twenty years too early.”For a variety of reasons I can't quite bring myself to condemn Obama, but this image of Obama as someone who's just slightly lost in time does capture the strange aura of disaffected dispresence that surrounded him. Wavering and shimmering in this fashion, he lost a lot of fights before they even started. But then he wasn't a fighter. He was a law professor. Perhaps he was just drained. He came a long way. I do believe the trail he blazed makes the path ever so slightly less exhausting, for those who are to follow.
Rhodes wrestled with this painful blow. It sounded like a repudiation of everything they had done. But then he found an answer, and it was in keeping with the spirit of his years in service to Obama: “We were right, but all that progress depended upon him, and now he was out of time.”
posted by dmh at 2:08 PM on November 12, 2020 [12 favorites]
dmh Obama took the thought to its natural conclusion: “Sometimes I wonder whether I was ten or twenty years too early.”
That's something I've thought about a bit too. I imagine if Obama had more time serving in public office, as a Senator, learning more of the ways that the Legislative branch operates (or more often, fails to operate), then perhaps he would have been more able to foresee and push back on the obstructions that hobbled him. This is something I think Biden, with his decades in the Senate might do better with.
posted by SansPoint at 2:11 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
That's something I've thought about a bit too. I imagine if Obama had more time serving in public office, as a Senator, learning more of the ways that the Legislative branch operates (or more often, fails to operate), then perhaps he would have been more able to foresee and push back on the obstructions that hobbled him. This is something I think Biden, with his decades in the Senate might do better with.
posted by SansPoint at 2:11 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
“Sometimes I wonder whether I was ten or twenty years too early.”
I have wondered about that for many years. What might have happened if Hillary Clinton had won the primary in 2008 and gone one to win the presidency? Clinton would have probably stepped on some Republican throats to get things done given her past experience with the right and Obama might have gained some more realpolitik experience and come in better equipped to handle the intransigence.
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:18 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
I have wondered about that for many years. What might have happened if Hillary Clinton had won the primary in 2008 and gone one to win the presidency? Clinton would have probably stepped on some Republican throats to get things done given her past experience with the right and Obama might have gained some more realpolitik experience and come in better equipped to handle the intransigence.
posted by techSupp0rt at 2:18 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
That particular voice has been heard, and heard, and heard again on the topic of how repugnant and complicit liberals are, to the point where it can't be accurately described as marginalized.
I'm not going to continue this discussion beyond this point out of respect for not derailing the thread, but the comment with 30 or more favorites basically accused the user of bad faith and asked them not to contribute to the discussion. The user, who I believe from past posts, and I apologize if I am getting this wrong, is an individual who is not white and is heavily involved in activism at the personal level. That comment was an ad hominin attack. It added nothing of substance to the discussion, failed to answer any of the arguments raised, and also, incidentally, failed to engage the material of the post. You added a whole bunch of arguments against the poster's point that the "shut up" post didn't even attempt. You are able to do that because you are expressing a common shared undercurrent of sentiment on this site.
And you know what? I completely understand it. It sucks to be told you are part of the problem, especially if you identify with the group being criticized. But, if self-reflection were easy, everyone would do it and the world would be a much different place.
It's sad, but I get the feeling most American political discourse could be boiled down to "everyone to the right of me is a heartless racist bastard and everyone to the left of me is a puritanical snowflake who doesn't suffer as much as they claim to". I think Americans across the political spectrum could tattoo that to their forheard and save much wasted breath. You could add an addendum for left wing inclined people that would include a statement to the effect "only voices from "group x" that share my convictions are worthy of hearing."
On the one level its understandable because its human nature. On the other hand its just one more psychological filter we all use, especially those of us with privilege, to insulate us from the fact that everything doesn't always work out. The authorities don't always know best or even have everyone's best interest at heart, even yours. The man or woman on the white horse won't ride in to save us all.
Obama was supposed to be that man on the white horse. I was stupid enough to believe it. Partly that reflected my own blinkered worldview. But in mine and Obama's partial defense, there genuinely was a tradition of bipartisan cooperation because both parties contained conservative and liberal wings. People like Gingrich were running ads saying we should care about global warming. There seemed to be an expert consensus following the Iraq War disaster, Katrina, and the financial crisis that major elements of America's guiding economic and foreign policy philosophies needed to be reexamined.
The problem is that all quickly proved to be a mirage. Failing to recognize the reasons for that through an appeal to some amorphous American promise doesn't do anything to fix the situation. People were genuinely hurt by the austerity that followed the too small stimulus. Sometimes that even extended to death and suicide. The failure to enact more comprehensive healthcare reform certainly led to additional death, particularly in the current pandemic. If we can't even name the forces leading to that pain, we aren't going to fix it.
Reading the excerpts from Obama's book, it just doesn't seem like much is added. Apparently he thought at the time he was trying to pass the ACA that he was doing all he could for the economy. He wasn't. His analysis of healthcare seemed put too much emphasis on the failures of sick americans to negotiate better healthcare prices or less unnecessary testing from their doctors. It's a weirdly actuarial and detached view to take towards human life, and I can't help but wonder how it fed into the thinking behind the Flint Water debacle.
Either way, speaking very personally, I'm not particularly interested in condemning or praising Obama. All historical figures are complicated products of their time. I'm more against the idea that we should sanctify politicians as though they are heros fighting on our behalf in some grand pageant. In end, I think we should view them as employees we hire to work for us, and we should acknowledge that need to push them to act on the behalf of those without power, money, and influence, because our system since the founding of the US is set up to protect those with property and privilege. That's the real reason we have those "checks and balances".
Given all that, its illogical to for a person A to interpret attacks on politician X as an attack on themselves. Rather, it's the people we know and love who we should be concerned with, not the honor of some rich and famous person we likely will never meet. That's my view of the matter.
posted by eagles123 at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2020 [37 favorites]
I'm not going to continue this discussion beyond this point out of respect for not derailing the thread, but the comment with 30 or more favorites basically accused the user of bad faith and asked them not to contribute to the discussion. The user, who I believe from past posts, and I apologize if I am getting this wrong, is an individual who is not white and is heavily involved in activism at the personal level. That comment was an ad hominin attack. It added nothing of substance to the discussion, failed to answer any of the arguments raised, and also, incidentally, failed to engage the material of the post. You added a whole bunch of arguments against the poster's point that the "shut up" post didn't even attempt. You are able to do that because you are expressing a common shared undercurrent of sentiment on this site.
And you know what? I completely understand it. It sucks to be told you are part of the problem, especially if you identify with the group being criticized. But, if self-reflection were easy, everyone would do it and the world would be a much different place.
It's sad, but I get the feeling most American political discourse could be boiled down to "everyone to the right of me is a heartless racist bastard and everyone to the left of me is a puritanical snowflake who doesn't suffer as much as they claim to". I think Americans across the political spectrum could tattoo that to their forheard and save much wasted breath. You could add an addendum for left wing inclined people that would include a statement to the effect "only voices from "group x" that share my convictions are worthy of hearing."
On the one level its understandable because its human nature. On the other hand its just one more psychological filter we all use, especially those of us with privilege, to insulate us from the fact that everything doesn't always work out. The authorities don't always know best or even have everyone's best interest at heart, even yours. The man or woman on the white horse won't ride in to save us all.
Obama was supposed to be that man on the white horse. I was stupid enough to believe it. Partly that reflected my own blinkered worldview. But in mine and Obama's partial defense, there genuinely was a tradition of bipartisan cooperation because both parties contained conservative and liberal wings. People like Gingrich were running ads saying we should care about global warming. There seemed to be an expert consensus following the Iraq War disaster, Katrina, and the financial crisis that major elements of America's guiding economic and foreign policy philosophies needed to be reexamined.
The problem is that all quickly proved to be a mirage. Failing to recognize the reasons for that through an appeal to some amorphous American promise doesn't do anything to fix the situation. People were genuinely hurt by the austerity that followed the too small stimulus. Sometimes that even extended to death and suicide. The failure to enact more comprehensive healthcare reform certainly led to additional death, particularly in the current pandemic. If we can't even name the forces leading to that pain, we aren't going to fix it.
Reading the excerpts from Obama's book, it just doesn't seem like much is added. Apparently he thought at the time he was trying to pass the ACA that he was doing all he could for the economy. He wasn't. His analysis of healthcare seemed put too much emphasis on the failures of sick americans to negotiate better healthcare prices or less unnecessary testing from their doctors. It's a weirdly actuarial and detached view to take towards human life, and I can't help but wonder how it fed into the thinking behind the Flint Water debacle.
Either way, speaking very personally, I'm not particularly interested in condemning or praising Obama. All historical figures are complicated products of their time. I'm more against the idea that we should sanctify politicians as though they are heros fighting on our behalf in some grand pageant. In end, I think we should view them as employees we hire to work for us, and we should acknowledge that need to push them to act on the behalf of those without power, money, and influence, because our system since the founding of the US is set up to protect those with property and privilege. That's the real reason we have those "checks and balances".
Given all that, its illogical to for a person A to interpret attacks on politician X as an attack on themselves. Rather, it's the people we know and love who we should be concerned with, not the honor of some rich and famous person we likely will never meet. That's my view of the matter.
posted by eagles123 at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2020 [37 favorites]
> Let's be clear, I too am neoliberal and enjoy various neoliberal privileges. This is a key difference.
I don't know how to square your statement that neoliberals (noun) aren't good at listening to leftists when you describe yourself as neoliberal (adjective). Are you not good at listening to yourself? Or are you merely using a rhetorical trick to retain your right to use a label that's lost any meaning it may have once had, and which nobody here uses to describe their own political ideology?
I remember when some leftists asked people to stop using "Bernie bros" because of the negative connotation it had. That request was for the most part honored, and if I recall correctly, the subject of a MeTa in which the mods said that using it as an epithet was Not Okay. I see your use of neoliberal here in the same light, particularly with your inapt comparison to racism.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:47 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
I don't know how to square your statement that neoliberals (noun) aren't good at listening to leftists when you describe yourself as neoliberal (adjective). Are you not good at listening to yourself? Or are you merely using a rhetorical trick to retain your right to use a label that's lost any meaning it may have once had, and which nobody here uses to describe their own political ideology?
I remember when some leftists asked people to stop using "Bernie bros" because of the negative connotation it had. That request was for the most part honored, and if I recall correctly, the subject of a MeTa in which the mods said that using it as an epithet was Not Okay. I see your use of neoliberal here in the same light, particularly with your inapt comparison to racism.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:47 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
In my case, it's because it's very tiresome when specific topics become threadsitting targets with rehashes of the same thing instead of addressing the specific post topic. My last straw was back in the Democratic convention thread, where any vaguely positive reactions or specific comments about the convention were overwhelmed by repetitions about how Obama et al were all war criminals and Democrats should commit to sending them to the Hague or they were equally evil and also the really important thing right then was not to work to defeat Trump but to prepare to impeach Biden in January.
I just mostly gave up the Metafilter politics threads, but people with more of an interest are likely equally frustrated.
posted by tavella at 2:55 PM on November 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
I just mostly gave up the Metafilter politics threads, but people with more of an interest are likely equally frustrated.
posted by tavella at 2:55 PM on November 12, 2020 [13 favorites]
Or in short, maybe read the excerpt and comment on *that*?
posted by tavella at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by tavella at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
Well said, eagles123. Thanks for that comment. We have to acknowledge the whys to failures - or the fact that successes for some are failures for others - and I don't know anymore how to do that without opening wounds to people eager from their own bitter experience to salt them.
It just makes me feel sad and tired.
posted by Lonnrot at 3:02 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
It just makes me feel sad and tired.
posted by Lonnrot at 3:02 PM on November 12, 2020 [4 favorites]
> Given all that, its illogical to for a person A to interpret attacks on politician X as an attack on themselves. Rather, it's the people we know and love who we should be concerned with, not the honor of some rich and famous person we likely will never meet. That's my view of the matter.
I can't speak for anyone else, but the attacks I have a problem with aren't the ones on individual politicians, but on ideological labels that large swathes of people in this community identify with. This isn't a case of feeling too attached to individuals being criticized, it's a case of being criticized for what we believe is the best way to go about righting the same wrongs that are motivating the attacks on us. If someone is really criticizing Barack Obama or Rahm Emmanuel or Hillary Clinton when they use words like "centrists" and "liberals", then it's on them to be more specific in their targeting.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
I can't speak for anyone else, but the attacks I have a problem with aren't the ones on individual politicians, but on ideological labels that large swathes of people in this community identify with. This isn't a case of feeling too attached to individuals being criticized, it's a case of being criticized for what we believe is the best way to go about righting the same wrongs that are motivating the attacks on us. If someone is really criticizing Barack Obama or Rahm Emmanuel or Hillary Clinton when they use words like "centrists" and "liberals", then it's on them to be more specific in their targeting.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
Obama was Bush III in most regards
You win at righteousness.
posted by acb at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
You win at righteousness.
posted by acb at 3:15 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
I recognize that Obama faced extreme obstruction by Congress on any sort of legislative achievements. He got the best deal he could on Obamacare and that was a great accomplishment.
Where I fault Obama was on his executive actions, particularly with regard to the financial crisis.
The Obama administration did not put one single banker in jail and that's on him and his appointee Eric Holder. JP Morgan and Goldman and Citibank and BofA paid over 250 billion dollars in penalties for their crimes and corruption yet 250 billion dollars of crime resulted in not a single conviction. In the 1987 savings and loan crisis over 1,200 bankers went to jail. In the much bigger Great Recession, not one. That is pure executive inaction. It had nothing to do with Mitch McConnell.
Second was Obama's failure to implement the HAMP program which Congress designed so that Obama could modify mortgages and help homeowners save their home and avoid foreclosure. Congress gave Obama 70 billion dollars to do this but he didn't act. He was intimidated by Rick Santelli's call to action for the Tea Party on CNBC in which he ranted about free money for losers. Obama had the money to spend but he didn't have the courage to spend it. That's all on Obama. Congress had already given him the money.
And finally was Obama's neoliberal declaration in 2010 that the government had to tighten its belt just like households. Obama fell for Republican hypocritical complaints about the debt which extended the long slow recovery and arguably led to Donald Trump's election victory.
All in all, Obama did some very good things, but he also failed in some very bad things that he can't blame on congressional obstruction.
posted by JackFlash at 3:19 PM on November 12, 2020 [29 favorites]
Where I fault Obama was on his executive actions, particularly with regard to the financial crisis.
The Obama administration did not put one single banker in jail and that's on him and his appointee Eric Holder. JP Morgan and Goldman and Citibank and BofA paid over 250 billion dollars in penalties for their crimes and corruption yet 250 billion dollars of crime resulted in not a single conviction. In the 1987 savings and loan crisis over 1,200 bankers went to jail. In the much bigger Great Recession, not one. That is pure executive inaction. It had nothing to do with Mitch McConnell.
Second was Obama's failure to implement the HAMP program which Congress designed so that Obama could modify mortgages and help homeowners save their home and avoid foreclosure. Congress gave Obama 70 billion dollars to do this but he didn't act. He was intimidated by Rick Santelli's call to action for the Tea Party on CNBC in which he ranted about free money for losers. Obama had the money to spend but he didn't have the courage to spend it. That's all on Obama. Congress had already given him the money.
And finally was Obama's neoliberal declaration in 2010 that the government had to tighten its belt just like households. Obama fell for Republican hypocritical complaints about the debt which extended the long slow recovery and arguably led to Donald Trump's election victory.
All in all, Obama did some very good things, but he also failed in some very bad things that he can't blame on congressional obstruction.
posted by JackFlash at 3:19 PM on November 12, 2020 [29 favorites]
I concur with what folks have said: In so far that Obama was stymied by Republicans, he has my sympathies and thanks. The ACA is woefully inadequate, but it saved lives, especially with the Medicaid expansion. His attempt to save Dreamers and DACA are laudable and saved lives. More could have been done if not for Republican obstructionism. He's not a Green Lantern, and I'm aware willpower alone cannot accomplish everything.
But he made decisions entirely within his purview concerning war, drone strikes, banks, bailouts, immigrant detention conditions and processes, pipelines, and diplomacy that he chose poorly and it cost lives and livelihoods. He hired Rahm fucking Emmanuel as his first chief of staff. He tried to "both sides" anti-police protests and called people "thugs." He tried to stay above the fray and lent power to the aggressor in that same fight.
Presidents are held accountable as well as men, and we can hold Obama accountable for the sins wielding the power of an American empire without dismantling it.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 3:34 PM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
But he made decisions entirely within his purview concerning war, drone strikes, banks, bailouts, immigrant detention conditions and processes, pipelines, and diplomacy that he chose poorly and it cost lives and livelihoods. He hired Rahm fucking Emmanuel as his first chief of staff. He tried to "both sides" anti-police protests and called people "thugs." He tried to stay above the fray and lent power to the aggressor in that same fight.
Presidents are held accountable as well as men, and we can hold Obama accountable for the sins wielding the power of an American empire without dismantling it.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 3:34 PM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]
My (rhetorical) guns only fire to the right of Obama.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:51 PM on November 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
And just to clarify, I fight fascists, hate Republicans, and am frustrated with liberals. The last are my erstwhile allies, and so my disappointment gets directed at them. But make no mistake: they are my allies when they wish it, and frustration is far better than the outright opposition I have for Republican goals and methods. I might attack Obama for his rightwing and neoliberal views and actions, but my guns are always trained and hot on conservative and fascist active malfeasance.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 3:56 PM on November 12, 2020
posted by Lord Chancellor at 3:56 PM on November 12, 2020
I just mostly gave up the Metafilter politics threads, but people with more of an interest are likely equally frustrated.
I assure you it isn’t people on one side of the perennial lefty infighting who have often felt shouted-down, and frustrated by discussions here over the last four years. I’m not about to solve the problems of talking about politics on the Internet. I’ll just say I try, personally, to be thoughtful about how I express my opinions, to treat other users with respect (public figures less so), and to pick my battles. But the opinions themselves, you get what you get.
posted by atoxyl at 3:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I assure you it isn’t people on one side of the perennial lefty infighting who have often felt shouted-down, and frustrated by discussions here over the last four years. I’m not about to solve the problems of talking about politics on the Internet. I’ll just say I try, personally, to be thoughtful about how I express my opinions, to treat other users with respect (public figures less so), and to pick my battles. But the opinions themselves, you get what you get.
posted by atoxyl at 3:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
How is this any different than how extremely online leftists spend most of their time complaining about neoliberal centrist sellout Democrats instead of attacking Trump and the GOP?
Critique is to leftism as fealty is to rightism. I think an important distinction is that leftists, "extremely online" or otherwise, went to the polls and voted for the liberal. If nothing else, most of us are pragmatic.
posted by klanawa at 5:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Critique is to leftism as fealty is to rightism. I think an important distinction is that leftists, "extremely online" or otherwise, went to the polls and voted for the liberal. If nothing else, most of us are pragmatic.
posted by klanawa at 5:00 PM on November 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
The tears in my dad’s eyes when Obama won is something I won’t ever forget. I can’t agree with everything he did but I do think some people belittle what his presidency meant. I can’t sneer at that.
posted by girlmightlive at 5:33 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by girlmightlive at 5:33 PM on November 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
this thread is so much fun, like an ouroboros of liberal self-hatred
posted by dudemanlives at 6:25 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by dudemanlives at 6:25 PM on November 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
"An ouroboros of liberal self-hatred" might actually be a good jacket blurb for Obama's memoir, according to the Adichie review quoted in this thread's first comment:
"He is a man watching himself watch himself ... turning to see every angle and possibly dissatisfied with all."
posted by Beardman at 7:04 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
"He is a man watching himself watch himself ... turning to see every angle and possibly dissatisfied with all."
posted by Beardman at 7:04 PM on November 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: An ouroboros of liberal self-hatred
posted by sainttoad at 7:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by sainttoad at 7:10 PM on November 12, 2020 [11 favorites]
An ouroboros
I learned a new word on metafilter today!
posted by bertran at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2020
I learned a new word on metafilter today!
posted by bertran at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2020
long ago and far away, I made my living as a DJ. Not the superhero rave type. More the weddings-parties-anything type.
Every now and then, usually out of boredom (and because I was young and foolish), I'd drop a little acid and turn the mundanity into some kind of adventure. One evening in particular comes to mind. It was a friend's wedding, the mid-1980s sometime. The bride and groom were both fellow dj-types so you can bet there were a lot of serious music heads in the crowd. But it was a wedding so there was also bunch of what we called "normals". Music just didn't matter that much to them, except that being human, they did love it. And in loving it, they wanted to hear what they wanted hear which basically meant yrrr basic top-40/popular oldies stuff. Lots of it awful but not all of it by any means. Creedence is not crap. And the drunker they got, the more they skipped the pleasantries and just shouted "enough of this weird fag new wave crap" (or whatever).
Meanwhile, the serious dj-music-head types were also fuming. Because whatever "weird fag new wave crap" I was playing, it wasn't the right "weird fag new wave crap". It was too white. It was too 1977. It was from the sell-out third album. It wasn't the earlier better extended play single version. It wasn't the one John Cale produced. And so on.
All of which, as the acid began forcing itself into my consciousness, sparked one of those insights I didn't realize I was looking for:
This Is What Politics Is
All these tribes and factions and interest groups and whatnot. Everybody activating for what they WANT, who cares what anybody else wants!? Some of these wants were rather well investigated and informed and argued their point incisively, some were rather the opposite ... not to mention everything between. All of them unified by a singular disregard for what anybody else wanted, fuck 'em!
Some of this was the acid speaking, of course, over-emphasizing, extrapolating, but there was an undeniable truth to it all as well ... and damn if it didn't shock me with hopelessness. Everything I played somebody hated. It was getting ugly. I was lost.
Until the bride slipped me the soundtrack to Saturday Night Fever. "I know," she said, "Disco sucks but ..."
I played track one, side one -- Stayin' Alive (the monster Bee Gees hit) and something happened. A few things actually.
A. more people started dancing,
B. some people HATED me even more, wanted to actually kill me,
C. some people laughed.
I played Disco Inferno next and let's' just say, it sealed the deal. Everybody who was thinking of leaving did and everybody else just hit the dance floor, went OFF. And so on. Disco (which I'd previously mostly hate) sort of saved my soul that night. And more to the point, it Saved The Party! I even got to play some Creedence eventually.
Don't exactly know what this has to do with this discussion but it did come to mind.
posted by philip-random at 8:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
Every now and then, usually out of boredom (and because I was young and foolish), I'd drop a little acid and turn the mundanity into some kind of adventure. One evening in particular comes to mind. It was a friend's wedding, the mid-1980s sometime. The bride and groom were both fellow dj-types so you can bet there were a lot of serious music heads in the crowd. But it was a wedding so there was also bunch of what we called "normals". Music just didn't matter that much to them, except that being human, they did love it. And in loving it, they wanted to hear what they wanted hear which basically meant yrrr basic top-40/popular oldies stuff. Lots of it awful but not all of it by any means. Creedence is not crap. And the drunker they got, the more they skipped the pleasantries and just shouted "enough of this weird fag new wave crap" (or whatever).
Meanwhile, the serious dj-music-head types were also fuming. Because whatever "weird fag new wave crap" I was playing, it wasn't the right "weird fag new wave crap". It was too white. It was too 1977. It was from the sell-out third album. It wasn't the earlier better extended play single version. It wasn't the one John Cale produced. And so on.
All of which, as the acid began forcing itself into my consciousness, sparked one of those insights I didn't realize I was looking for:
This Is What Politics Is
All these tribes and factions and interest groups and whatnot. Everybody activating for what they WANT, who cares what anybody else wants!? Some of these wants were rather well investigated and informed and argued their point incisively, some were rather the opposite ... not to mention everything between. All of them unified by a singular disregard for what anybody else wanted, fuck 'em!
Some of this was the acid speaking, of course, over-emphasizing, extrapolating, but there was an undeniable truth to it all as well ... and damn if it didn't shock me with hopelessness. Everything I played somebody hated. It was getting ugly. I was lost.
Until the bride slipped me the soundtrack to Saturday Night Fever. "I know," she said, "Disco sucks but ..."
I played track one, side one -- Stayin' Alive (the monster Bee Gees hit) and something happened. A few things actually.
A. more people started dancing,
B. some people HATED me even more, wanted to actually kill me,
C. some people laughed.
I played Disco Inferno next and let's' just say, it sealed the deal. Everybody who was thinking of leaving did and everybody else just hit the dance floor, went OFF. And so on. Disco (which I'd previously mostly hate) sort of saved my soul that night. And more to the point, it Saved The Party! I even got to play some Creedence eventually.
Don't exactly know what this has to do with this discussion but it did come to mind.
posted by philip-random at 8:58 PM on November 12, 2020 [27 favorites]
This Is What Politics Is
Fully agreed. I read somewhere recently (will link if I remember it) that here in the US, politics is the battle between the two most important groups of people in this country: white people, and the other white people.
posted by el gran combo at 12:15 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Fully agreed. I read somewhere recently (will link if I remember it) that here in the US, politics is the battle between the two most important groups of people in this country: white people, and the other white people.
posted by el gran combo at 12:15 AM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Until the bride slipped me the soundtrack to Saturday Night Fever. "I know," she said, "Disco sucks but ..."
There's a number of things one could potentially extrapolate from that story, like how the infamous Disco Demolition Night went down in Cleveland, where a crowd of disco haters went out of control in the joy of seeing those hated records destroyed, and through that all disco represented to them.
But what I find most interesting is the way the bride had a copy of Saturday Night Fever, desired it to be played, but still found it necessary to offer a preemptive disclaimer about an ideal of taste as a palliative when offering up her choice of music at her own wedding. As if she had to almost apologize for violating an almost completely arbitrary norm, setting aside any larger symbolic representation, simply due to knowing some group of "others" wouldn't like it. There's something in that which also speaks to politics and the status quo I think.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:39 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
There's a number of things one could potentially extrapolate from that story, like how the infamous Disco Demolition Night went down in Cleveland, where a crowd of disco haters went out of control in the joy of seeing those hated records destroyed, and through that all disco represented to them.
But what I find most interesting is the way the bride had a copy of Saturday Night Fever, desired it to be played, but still found it necessary to offer a preemptive disclaimer about an ideal of taste as a palliative when offering up her choice of music at her own wedding. As if she had to almost apologize for violating an almost completely arbitrary norm, setting aside any larger symbolic representation, simply due to knowing some group of "others" wouldn't like it. There's something in that which also speaks to politics and the status quo I think.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:39 AM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
simply due to knowing some group of "others" wouldn't like it.
Ah, not quite! The bride and groom were also music snobs. It was knowing that her own group, not "others," was not supposed to like it. She was apologizing to her in-group for having out-group tastes.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:35 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Ah, not quite! The bride and groom were also music snobs. It was knowing that her own group, not "others," was not supposed to like it. She was apologizing to her in-group for having out-group tastes.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:35 PM on November 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
(which I point out because it seems very relevant to a thread in which people who identify strongly with left-wing ideas and groups are having to apologize for finding a former Democratic president less than fully loathsome.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2020 [8 favorites]
Honestly I think comparing different musical preferences to battles that affect people’s lives — of which they have but one — is pretty tasteless.
I know this point is what makes leftists boring and self-righteous but people actually died based on these decisions and that matters.
posted by dame at 1:43 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
I know this point is what makes leftists boring and self-righteous but people actually died based on these decisions and that matters.
posted by dame at 1:43 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
And other lives were saved by a DJ, just last night...
posted by kaibutsu at 1:56 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 1:56 PM on November 13, 2020 [3 favorites]
Volume 1: Birth to meeting the Navy SEALS as they are about to embark on their mission to kill OBL
Volume 2: 600 pages about the tan suit
Volume 3: Whatever's left over
This is the only format I'll accept.
posted by zeusianfog at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2020
Volume 2: 600 pages about the tan suit
Volume 3: Whatever's left over
This is the only format I'll accept.
posted by zeusianfog at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2020
"Maybe sit one out, you're take is upsetting me," isn't exactly an invitation to a nuanced discussion. On a site where "let marginalized voices be heard" is holy writ, its like going to church and watching the congregation burn the bibles and piss in the holy water.
The interesting thing is that this discussion, like many other discussions over the past 10 years, validates this innovative, uniquely American project of melding a specific kind of diversity-focused identity politics with the great machine of empire. Other than the mass "decarbonizations" in Yemen and Libya, I think this form of reputational laundering will ultimately be Obama's greatest foreign policy legacy.
After all, how can anyone criticize a person of color or a woman for the terrible things they have done abroad when "the other side", made up mostly of white men, has done so much worse?
I would say I see a future of white people condescendingly lecturing me about how racism means people of color in leadership positions inevitably have to do Bad Centrist Things, but I'm already living in that dismal world right now.
It doesn't matter that I'm a person of color or an organizer or that my family is materially impacted by these things. It turns out identity and circumstances are only useful as a shield against criticism for the powerful, not those without power. I just need to shut up/"sit this one out" because the Americans are traumatized and don't have the spoons for my constant, "bad-faith" uppity behavior.
The particulars of the drone program are especially interesting: Obama had to personally sign off on each strike, knowing that innocent children would invariably be killed. I desperately wish he would write about those hard choices, especially considering these were unilateral decisions that weren't affected by Republican obstructionism. So far, the only thing he has ever said about it was a horrifying joke about the Jonas Brothers.
posted by Ouverture at 5:08 PM on November 13, 2020 [12 favorites]
The interesting thing is that this discussion, like many other discussions over the past 10 years, validates this innovative, uniquely American project of melding a specific kind of diversity-focused identity politics with the great machine of empire. Other than the mass "decarbonizations" in Yemen and Libya, I think this form of reputational laundering will ultimately be Obama's greatest foreign policy legacy.
After all, how can anyone criticize a person of color or a woman for the terrible things they have done abroad when "the other side", made up mostly of white men, has done so much worse?
I would say I see a future of white people condescendingly lecturing me about how racism means people of color in leadership positions inevitably have to do Bad Centrist Things, but I'm already living in that dismal world right now.
It doesn't matter that I'm a person of color or an organizer or that my family is materially impacted by these things. It turns out identity and circumstances are only useful as a shield against criticism for the powerful, not those without power. I just need to shut up/"sit this one out" because the Americans are traumatized and don't have the spoons for my constant, "bad-faith" uppity behavior.
The particulars of the drone program are especially interesting: Obama had to personally sign off on each strike, knowing that innocent children would invariably be killed. I desperately wish he would write about those hard choices, especially considering these were unilateral decisions that weren't affected by Republican obstructionism. So far, the only thing he has ever said about it was a horrifying joke about the Jonas Brothers.
posted by Ouverture at 5:08 PM on November 13, 2020 [12 favorites]
After all, how can anyone criticize a person of color or a woman for the terrible things they have done abroad when "the other side", made up mostly of white men, has done so much worse?
No one here is saying that.
I wish leftists would realise that people have different values and ideas about how to achieve something. We can all be good people and disagree.
Obama gave me hope. I am a white Australian. I know he's not perfect, I know he made some morally dubious decisions. For me though, I evaluate people on the bigger picture, the overall balance of good versus bad.
posted by daybeforetheday at 3:21 PM on November 14, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's fascinating to me that an Obama thread turns into such a shitshow. His legacy is very complicated, but ultimately I believe how he will be judged is how he ruled, which is in the context of his time and his job.
He's not to be compared with what people wanted him to be, or with some hypothetically better person, he'll be compared to George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, FDR, Lincoln, Nixon, Trump. He governed fully aware of context, of what an American president actually is in 2008-16... the head asshole of a monstrous empire that doesn't take particularly good care of its people. Because of how he got elected, people had different expectations of who he was or at least could be, and so the arguments are righteous and fierce.
Philip Random wins the thread, so here's my question-- what kind of music did Obama play?
posted by chaz at 5:00 PM on November 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
He's not to be compared with what people wanted him to be, or with some hypothetically better person, he'll be compared to George W. Bush, Bill Clinton, FDR, Lincoln, Nixon, Trump. He governed fully aware of context, of what an American president actually is in 2008-16... the head asshole of a monstrous empire that doesn't take particularly good care of its people. Because of how he got elected, people had different expectations of who he was or at least could be, and so the arguments are righteous and fierce.
Philip Random wins the thread, so here's my question-- what kind of music did Obama play?
posted by chaz at 5:00 PM on November 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
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posted by philip-random at 9:29 AM on November 12, 2020 [17 favorites]