Covid vaccines set to begin rollout
December 9, 2020 8:01 AM Subscribe
Governments around the world are beginning to implement COVID-19 vaccine programs. Most people will experience mild reactions if any to injections however the UK warns people with a history serious allergic reactions shouldn't receive the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine after two people experienced adverse reactions to the inoculation.
Previously on the COVID Vaccines
Previously on the COVID Vaccines
Health Canada authorizes first COVID-19 vaccine
Health Canada has determined that the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine meets the Department's stringent safety, efficacy and quality requirements for use in Canada.posted by Mitheral at 8:41 AM on December 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
Here's a picture of a silicon chip. You can keep this pic handy on your phone or computer, just in case. Just so you can show people that a silicon chip is small, but not so fucking small it fits in a syringe. That's big enough that you'd notice someone trying to sneak it in.
I didn't think I'd need this picture either, until I did.
posted by adept256 at 9:02 AM on December 9, 2020 [33 favorites]
I didn't think I'd need this picture either, until I did.
posted by adept256 at 9:02 AM on December 9, 2020 [33 favorites]
my wife has a pretty severe peanut allergy, so I'm monitoring all this allergy news with no small amount of trepidation. it makes sense they don't use people with known severe allergies in initial trials but surely on a normal rollout timeline they'd have a clearer sense of potential complications?
seems like all good news, regardless
posted by Kybard at 9:16 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
seems like all good news, regardless
posted by Kybard at 9:16 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
adept256: I keep waiting for someone to show a still of Borg Nanoprobes from Star Trek as proof, but I haven't seen it yet... mostly because I avoid places and people who post that sort of nonsense like the plague. Pun intended.
posted by SansPoint at 9:20 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 9:20 AM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
the UK warns people with a history serious allergic reactions shouldn't receive the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine after two people experienced adverse reactions to the inoculation.
I just want to note that this does not mean they "shouldn't" for ever and ever, amen, no going back on this, cannot possibly ever get the vaccine or you will definitely die because they said this once.
This happens a lot with vaccines*, it generally takes a few minutes to figure out what the adverse reaction is to and then in many cases there can be a Plan B (likely one that takes more resources to produce and so is not cheap/fast enough to roll out widespread but can be sufficiently produced for the population that needs it). It often doesn't take very long for that to happen.
*It happens every year with the flu shot, which I know because my mother is allergic to existence but certainly the flu isn't going to improve her life any. It generally gets worked out. She gets her shot in a medical facility and sits in line of sight of the staff for 20 minutes. Once every 6 years or so it doesn't go so great and they hit her with antihistamines first (she also has a Benadryl schedule for a day in advance of the shot) and will go in with the epi if needed (it's never come to this).
This will get worked out. There will be a few people who cannot tolerate the vaccine, this is always true of all vaccines, that is why we vaccinate to achieve herd immunity.
Do not NOT get vaccinated because you heard this little news nugget. Talk to your doctor.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:27 AM on December 9, 2020 [72 favorites]
I just want to note that this does not mean they "shouldn't" for ever and ever, amen, no going back on this, cannot possibly ever get the vaccine or you will definitely die because they said this once.
This happens a lot with vaccines*, it generally takes a few minutes to figure out what the adverse reaction is to and then in many cases there can be a Plan B (likely one that takes more resources to produce and so is not cheap/fast enough to roll out widespread but can be sufficiently produced for the population that needs it). It often doesn't take very long for that to happen.
*It happens every year with the flu shot, which I know because my mother is allergic to existence but certainly the flu isn't going to improve her life any. It generally gets worked out. She gets her shot in a medical facility and sits in line of sight of the staff for 20 minutes. Once every 6 years or so it doesn't go so great and they hit her with antihistamines first (she also has a Benadryl schedule for a day in advance of the shot) and will go in with the epi if needed (it's never come to this).
This will get worked out. There will be a few people who cannot tolerate the vaccine, this is always true of all vaccines, that is why we vaccinate to achieve herd immunity.
Do not NOT get vaccinated because you heard this little news nugget. Talk to your doctor.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:27 AM on December 9, 2020 [72 favorites]
Any idea how one can get a shot asap?
posted by Old'n'Busted at 9:42 AM on December 9, 2020
posted by Old'n'Busted at 9:42 AM on December 9, 2020
adept256: I didn't think I'd need this picture either, until I did.
What's your success rate so far with actually changing people's minds?
Because, like, that's a consumer-grade chip. The CIA has access to crazy-small stuff that you don't even know about, like...
posted by clawsoon at 9:45 AM on December 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
What's your success rate so far with actually changing people's minds?
Because, like, that's a consumer-grade chip. The CIA has access to crazy-small stuff that you don't even know about, like...
posted by clawsoon at 9:45 AM on December 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
(yeah, not to indulge the derail too much, but it's not unreasonable to counter that that picture is almost entirely leadframe and package; the actual silicon is far smaller. It doesn't really matter, though. Much of the "buh microchips" crowd isn't arguing in good faith anyway.)
posted by phooky at 9:57 AM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by phooky at 9:57 AM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
Any idea how one can get a shot asap?
Right now, live in the UK, be over 80, live in a long term care facility, or work in such a facility.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:57 AM on December 9, 2020 [17 favorites]
Right now, live in the UK, be over 80, live in a long term care facility, or work in such a facility.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:57 AM on December 9, 2020 [17 favorites]
I explained the extreme ultraviolet lithography process used in the newest chips. A laser is bounced off a droplet of molten tin, which changes it's wavelength to a small as it we can get. This is what's used in the Apple M1 chip and if Apple could make it smaller they'd like to know how, and they're probably already working on it. The whole process is really interesting! Nanotechnology is a really exciting field right now and there's so much cool stuff to talk about. So we had a conversation about what is real and possible. And it worked, they changed their mind.
I don't know how that would work with a True Believer, but for a casual skeptic, it won them over.
posted by adept256 at 10:03 AM on December 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
I don't know how that would work with a True Believer, but for a casual skeptic, it won them over.
posted by adept256 at 10:03 AM on December 9, 2020 [9 favorites]
Right now, live in the UK, be over 80, live in a long term care facility, or work in such a facility.
The UK is only vaccinating people who are already in hospital currently. They're not vaccinating everyone in long term care quite yet.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
The UK is only vaccinating people who are already in hospital currently. They're not vaccinating everyone in long term care quite yet.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:26 AM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Eric Feigl-Ding, Senior Fellow at the Federation of American Scientists in Washington DC.
Why do I respect Oxford/AstraZeneca group’s vaccine research the most? Because they care about *publishing* their full results first before seeking vanity in market approval.
The Oxford vaccine is also 8-10x cheaper, and doesn’t require freezing.
posted by adamvasco at 10:35 AM on December 9, 2020 [10 favorites]
Why do I respect Oxford/AstraZeneca group’s vaccine research the most? Because they care about *publishing* their full results first before seeking vanity in market approval.
The Oxford vaccine is also 8-10x cheaper, and doesn’t require freezing.
posted by adamvasco at 10:35 AM on December 9, 2020 [10 favorites]
As a statistic, "two severe allergic reactions" is very confusing without knowing how many doses overall were given.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 10:36 AM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 10:36 AM on December 9, 2020 [5 favorites]
Canada's going to start the general population in April and plans to be done the end of next year.
I expect as more vaccines are approved they'll diversify deployment. At least I hope so.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:52 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I expect as more vaccines are approved they'll diversify deployment. At least I hope so.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:52 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
I've had an adverse reaction to a post-exposure immune system treatment, let me tell you about it!
I had an open wound on my thumb and came into contact with raccoon spit after one attacked my German Shepherd. Being a good pet owner I took my dog to the vet to see if being on Month 11 of his annual shots was a problem and learned it totally is nowhere near a problem, but the vet saw the bandage on my thumb and sent me to public health.
There was a mild delay in getting the globulin because I was bitten in one jurisdiction and treated in another and it's expensive, and I was thinking of dropping it when a colleague who had lived in a country where people die of rabies still described for me the death that would definitely await me if I contracted rabies, so I called all the authorities and got the thing delivered asap.
On the first shot I got hives right away and threw up, and then was dizzy for a while - enough that my doctor located her in-house epinephrine and made me stay for a couple of hours. On all my other 3 shots I took Benadryl first and then sat in my doctor's office for an hour afterwards. I was mildly allergic to eggs at the time and I am a little more allergic to eggs now.
And - I didn't die of rabies! But I was definitely a statistic that year for allergic reactions to rabies treatment, and being treated is uncommon enough that it probably could register as like, a percentage of people receiving treatment. But here I am today.
This is not to deny that other people could have worse reactions or that we should ignore averse reactions, not at all. But to say that even with that stat under my belt, I will be getting this vaccine, preferably at a location where there's a professional around with access to epinephrine, just in case.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:10 AM on December 9, 2020 [21 favorites]
I had an open wound on my thumb and came into contact with raccoon spit after one attacked my German Shepherd. Being a good pet owner I took my dog to the vet to see if being on Month 11 of his annual shots was a problem and learned it totally is nowhere near a problem, but the vet saw the bandage on my thumb and sent me to public health.
There was a mild delay in getting the globulin because I was bitten in one jurisdiction and treated in another and it's expensive, and I was thinking of dropping it when a colleague who had lived in a country where people die of rabies still described for me the death that would definitely await me if I contracted rabies, so I called all the authorities and got the thing delivered asap.
On the first shot I got hives right away and threw up, and then was dizzy for a while - enough that my doctor located her in-house epinephrine and made me stay for a couple of hours. On all my other 3 shots I took Benadryl first and then sat in my doctor's office for an hour afterwards. I was mildly allergic to eggs at the time and I am a little more allergic to eggs now.
And - I didn't die of rabies! But I was definitely a statistic that year for allergic reactions to rabies treatment, and being treated is uncommon enough that it probably could register as like, a percentage of people receiving treatment. But here I am today.
This is not to deny that other people could have worse reactions or that we should ignore averse reactions, not at all. But to say that even with that stat under my belt, I will be getting this vaccine, preferably at a location where there's a professional around with access to epinephrine, just in case.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:10 AM on December 9, 2020 [21 favorites]
Rich countries are effectively hoarding the Covid vaccine.
That is how the world’s rich, white countries are behaving right now. The Covid vaccine being hoarded is a glaring, bitter, vivid example of how racism still rules our world and isn’t even called racism.
posted by adamvasco at 11:38 AM on December 9, 2020 [16 favorites]
That is how the world’s rich, white countries are behaving right now. The Covid vaccine being hoarded is a glaring, bitter, vivid example of how racism still rules our world and isn’t even called racism.
posted by adamvasco at 11:38 AM on December 9, 2020 [16 favorites]
Any idea how one can get a shot asap?
My HMO has sent out two extremely vague mass emails that I think translate into "We know you have questions, but we have absolutely no news yet."
Lyn Never, I hope you're right. I started screaming in my head once I heard this since several of my friends have those kind of food allergies.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:12 PM on December 9, 2020
My HMO has sent out two extremely vague mass emails that I think translate into "We know you have questions, but we have absolutely no news yet."
Lyn Never, I hope you're right. I started screaming in my head once I heard this since several of my friends have those kind of food allergies.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:12 PM on December 9, 2020
I'm also worrying about the adverse reaction news. I'm allergic to the MMR vaccine. Not a little bit allergic-- anaphylaxis; I had to be revived after my first dose as a child. My pediatrician advised against me having it again, the Army refused to give it to me, and my doctor now as recently as last year said that it's still not safe for me. So I'm womp womp for me. But I am genuinely excited for everyone else who can get it.
posted by headspace at 12:52 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by headspace at 12:52 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
headspace, same here in regards to the MMR. Not to the level of anaphylaxis, but bad enough that I cannot have it again. I'll be following the news even more closely now, I'm hoping they figure out the cause.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 1:04 PM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 1:04 PM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Adamvasco, at the risk of beginning a derail, can you hoard something that hasn't been produced yet? Placing orders for something that will be mass produced as long as orders come in is not the same as sitting on a giant pile of vaccines and refusing to donate them.
posted by jellywerker at 1:27 PM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by jellywerker at 1:27 PM on December 9, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm with you jellywerker, that article invites the reader to see the chart at its head as evidence of wealthy nations participating in vaccine hoarding (i.e. per capita, Canada leads the world with orders of 11 vaccine doses for every Canadian). While I have no doubt that evidence of "vaccine nationalism" is readily available (just look at Trump's executive orders!), using that chart as evidence of vaccine hoarding is profoundly misleading. The article that is the source of the chart (props to the author for linking to the chart's source) says "these figures include both initial purchases and options to buy more, including orders with companies whose vaccines have not started Phase 3 trials yet. Therefore, order metrics may greatly overstate the actual number of doses that will become available for each country." Canada, the US, and other countries placed large preorders with multiple vaccine manufacturers knowing full well that many, if not most, of the vaccine candidates would not be successful — as a way to promote the rapid development of at least one successful vaccine. Someone could just as easily use that chart at the head of an article praising the people of Canada for their altruism, but that too would be misleading.
posted by RichardP at 1:35 PM on December 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by RichardP at 1:35 PM on December 9, 2020 [12 favorites]
It also doesn’t seem like that chart includes data for the Chinese vaccine, which is probably going to supply much of Southeast Asia or the independent Indian manufacturers who will be supplying the Pfizer and AZ vaccines there.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:42 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 1:42 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Any idea how one can get a shot asap?
I'm working on it. So far my team consists of a registered nurse, a racecar driver, a lion tamer, a leet hacker, and four veterans who were convicted of a crime they did not commit. If you're really good with disguises and/or swords you're in.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:46 PM on December 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
I'm working on it. So far my team consists of a registered nurse, a racecar driver, a lion tamer, a leet hacker, and four veterans who were convicted of a crime they did not commit. If you're really good with disguises and/or swords you're in.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:46 PM on December 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
That is how the world’s rich, white countries are behaving right now. The Covid vaccine being hoarded is a glaring, bitter, vivid example of how racism still rules our world and isn’t even called racism.
I don't want to minimize this, because I do think there's something really off about how this happened, but as a Canadian, part of what I think happened is that the (minority) government was under such scrutiny and pressure on this that they bought up a ton of delivery options on everything that looked slight promising, out of fear of being left with nothing or very little and precipitating a crisis as a result (heck, they got bad press last week when the media "revealed" the fact that vaccine manufacturing wouldn't happen in Canada, and as such we might have to wait longer than places where manufacturing was happening). I expect (and will be letting my reps know) that once we know we have enough doses for the population here, that the remaining delivery options are handled through the COVAX facility or something similar.
But the fact that we can do this, and did, without really thinking about it, certainly speaks to some real problems around inequity and race.
posted by nubs at 1:47 PM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't want to minimize this, because I do think there's something really off about how this happened, but as a Canadian, part of what I think happened is that the (minority) government was under such scrutiny and pressure on this that they bought up a ton of delivery options on everything that looked slight promising, out of fear of being left with nothing or very little and precipitating a crisis as a result (heck, they got bad press last week when the media "revealed" the fact that vaccine manufacturing wouldn't happen in Canada, and as such we might have to wait longer than places where manufacturing was happening). I expect (and will be letting my reps know) that once we know we have enough doses for the population here, that the remaining delivery options are handled through the COVAX facility or something similar.
But the fact that we can do this, and did, without really thinking about it, certainly speaks to some real problems around inequity and race.
posted by nubs at 1:47 PM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
Our 8mo old daughter had a semi-rare adverse reaction to the MMR vaccine, acute immune thrombocytopenia. Basically your immune systems goes haywire and eats your platelets, and your start developing a lot of bruises and petechiae. This is quite scary for the parent and dangerous for the baby since any internal bleeding could go unnoticed, and its even worse if you make the stupid mistake of googling “low platelets baby” while waiting for your results in the emergency room, DO NOT DO THIS, nothing will happen out or knowing the possible outcomes.
She’ll still get all her other vaccines.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:54 PM on December 9, 2020 [10 favorites]
She’ll still get all her other vaccines.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:54 PM on December 9, 2020 [10 favorites]
A lot of sober comments and legitimate concerns here, well stated, very welcome. I don't wanna celebrate prematurely, but just let me have this.
WOOOOO!
WE DID IT!
SCIENCE!
FUCK YEAH!
Thank you.
posted by adept256 at 2:09 PM on December 9, 2020 [51 favorites]
WE DID IT!
SCIENCE!
FUCK YEAH!
Thank you.
posted by adept256 at 2:09 PM on December 9, 2020 [51 favorites]
Any idea how one can get a shot asap?
I’m the phase 3 of the Pfizer trial and still recently as a month ago they were still recruiting volunteers. Short of suddenly becoming an elderly health care professional, that might be an option for you- or at least a 50/50 option
posted by raccoon409 at 2:58 PM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
I’m the phase 3 of the Pfizer trial and still recently as a month ago they were still recruiting volunteers. Short of suddenly becoming an elderly health care professional, that might be an option for you- or at least a 50/50 option
posted by raccoon409 at 2:58 PM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
per capita, Canada leads the world with orders of 11 vaccine doses for every Canadian
This was indeed a bet-hedging strategy to improve the odds that *some* working vaccine would be available for Canadians, and indeed by pre-paying for these doses Canada helped fund development of multiple vaccines.
And, as reported already three weeks ago, Canada is planning to DONATE its excess shots to low-income countries. I would call this the opposite of hoarding.
posted by heatherlogan at 3:23 PM on December 9, 2020 [24 favorites]
This was indeed a bet-hedging strategy to improve the odds that *some* working vaccine would be available for Canadians, and indeed by pre-paying for these doses Canada helped fund development of multiple vaccines.
And, as reported already three weeks ago, Canada is planning to DONATE its excess shots to low-income countries. I would call this the opposite of hoarding.
posted by heatherlogan at 3:23 PM on December 9, 2020 [24 favorites]
That is how the world’s rich, white countries are behaving right now. The Covid vaccine being hoarded is a glaring, bitter, vivid example of how racism still rules our world and isn’t even called racism.
Canada somehow is hoarding something that we literally have none of, which seems a remarkable achievement. Canada never bought six doses of vaccine per capita. We bought the rights to six potential doses per capita; at the time of purchase, it was entirely possible that we had bought one dose per capita and five failed experiments, or even six failed experiments. This is the first time a vaccine has ever been developed for a coronavirus. This is the exact opposite of hoarding; what has happened to date -- fortunately -- is that Canada has invested six times as much as it needed to in global vaccine research.
Perhaps in a perfect world, the vaccine whould be given to people in high-need countries. Last week, you were 2.5 times more likely to die of Covid in Canada than in the Middle East; 8.4 times more likely to die in Canada than in Asia, and 15.6 times more likely to die in Canada of Covid than in Africa. Canada is a high-need country. There are some Latin American countries about as bad off as Canada right now, but otherwise the only higher need countries are topped by the likes of Italy and Belgium.
posted by Superilla at 3:32 PM on December 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
Canada somehow is hoarding something that we literally have none of, which seems a remarkable achievement. Canada never bought six doses of vaccine per capita. We bought the rights to six potential doses per capita; at the time of purchase, it was entirely possible that we had bought one dose per capita and five failed experiments, or even six failed experiments. This is the first time a vaccine has ever been developed for a coronavirus. This is the exact opposite of hoarding; what has happened to date -- fortunately -- is that Canada has invested six times as much as it needed to in global vaccine research.
Perhaps in a perfect world, the vaccine whould be given to people in high-need countries. Last week, you were 2.5 times more likely to die of Covid in Canada than in the Middle East; 8.4 times more likely to die in Canada than in Asia, and 15.6 times more likely to die in Canada of Covid than in Africa. Canada is a high-need country. There are some Latin American countries about as bad off as Canada right now, but otherwise the only higher need countries are topped by the likes of Italy and Belgium.
posted by Superilla at 3:32 PM on December 9, 2020 [31 favorites]
Yay! Can't wait for the anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, New World Order paranoids, and Mark of the Beast bible nuts to team up. It's all an international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids!
It's not public health, it's cattle antibiotics from the pedophile lizard people who live at the center of the earth, who farm us for our glands!
posted by bartleby at 3:46 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's not public health, it's cattle antibiotics from the pedophile lizard people who live at the center of the earth, who farm us for our glands!
posted by bartleby at 3:46 PM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]
Canada did hoard something. It hoarded the power to control the distribution of vaccines. That is even worse than any accusation of hoarding the actual vaccines.
Second, saying Canada is a high-need country is like saying Trump is a high-need individual. It is a narrow truth. Canada only became a high need country despite it being a first world country, it shouldn't have been a high need country in the first place.
The fact that many white Canadians will be oblivious to these two arguments is proof enough that global privilege is not symmetric. Indeed, they will say that things are not perfect.
posted by polymodus at 3:54 PM on December 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
Second, saying Canada is a high-need country is like saying Trump is a high-need individual. It is a narrow truth. Canada only became a high need country despite it being a first world country, it shouldn't have been a high need country in the first place.
The fact that many white Canadians will be oblivious to these two arguments is proof enough that global privilege is not symmetric. Indeed, they will say that things are not perfect.
posted by polymodus at 3:54 PM on December 9, 2020 [8 favorites]
This list on Twitter with Immunology experts popped up on my feed.
Any others we should follow?
posted by JoeXIII007 at 4:29 PM on December 9, 2020
Any others we should follow?
posted by JoeXIII007 at 4:29 PM on December 9, 2020
I was in the (well still am technically) moderna trial. My arm hurt a little after shot 1 but shot 2 kicked my ass. Fever, chills, headache, my arm hurt so bad I could barely move it. Then about 12 hours later, poof! All gone. Obviously that wasn’t an allergic reaction but my fear is that “they” are not doing a good enough job conveying how shitty the side effects can be and people are going to freak tf out. (I got antibody tested on my own and I had flipped from no antibodies to yes antibodies so I’m fairly confident I got the vaccine not the placebo). We already fight a TON of vaccine misinformation, I feel like this one is going to be extra tough while being so very important and I’m scared.
posted by yodelingisfun at 8:14 PM on December 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by yodelingisfun at 8:14 PM on December 9, 2020 [7 favorites]
Vaccine Nationalism Is Doomed to Fail: Countries seeking to inoculate their citizens at the expense of everyone else are chasing a false promise.
posted by homunculus at 8:30 PM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 8:30 PM on December 9, 2020 [3 favorites]
As a physician whose practice is caring for frail old people, I likely will be in the first group to get vaccinated in the US, or at least in an early round. Would it be acceptable to make a post on Facebook about getting it? My Facebook posts are seen only by relatives and true friends.
FWIW, getting the vaccine won't affect my behavior over the next 6 months. I haven't eaten in a restaurant, gone to the gym, gotten a haircut, or been in a friend's house since February. Having the risk of getting a deadly disease drop to 10% of what it was before isn't enough of a risk reduction for me. I need herd immunity.
posted by neuron at 8:45 PM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
FWIW, getting the vaccine won't affect my behavior over the next 6 months. I haven't eaten in a restaurant, gone to the gym, gotten a haircut, or been in a friend's house since February. Having the risk of getting a deadly disease drop to 10% of what it was before isn't enough of a risk reduction for me. I need herd immunity.
posted by neuron at 8:45 PM on December 9, 2020 [6 favorites]
(I got antibody tested on my own and I had flipped from no antibodies to yes antibodies so I’m fairly confident I got the vaccine not the placebo).
So much for double blind!
posted by Dysk at 9:03 PM on December 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
So much for double blind!
posted by Dysk at 9:03 PM on December 9, 2020 [11 favorites]
So, how long until Her Majesty gets the vaccine, do we reckon?
posted by BungaDunga at 9:25 PM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:25 PM on December 9, 2020 [1 favorite]
In an ideal world we'd do some controlled distribution targeting at risk groups worldwide in an ordered way to preserve as many as we can. But absent a global framework to enforce this, it would encomb to every government to make the decision to let some of its citizens die to save citizens of other countries. And as noble and right it can be, I just don't see it happening.
A right wing politician won't take this position and I don't think there's center/left wing politician alive who'll go out and say something like this and enact it. The right wing/nationalist tilt at the next election would be unprecedented. Best we'll get is talk from both sides of the mouth where they promise to "help other countries but have no worries it won't affect our citizen one bit". One of those affirmations is a lie, at least on the short term.
I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:27 PM on December 9, 2020
A right wing politician won't take this position and I don't think there's center/left wing politician alive who'll go out and say something like this and enact it. The right wing/nationalist tilt at the next election would be unprecedented. Best we'll get is talk from both sides of the mouth where they promise to "help other countries but have no worries it won't affect our citizen one bit". One of those affirmations is a lie, at least on the short term.
I don't know, maybe I'm too cynical.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 9:27 PM on December 9, 2020
absent a global framework to enforce this, it would encomb to every government to make the decision to let some of its citizens die to save citizens of other countries
Failure to do exactly this would require the same kind of bullshit short-term thinking that causes administrations run by fools to start their lockdowns too late and end them too early.
The point of vaccination in the face of a pandemic is to reduce the disease's overall reproduction rate below 1. If that can be achieved, the pandemic will eventually burn out. If not, it will keep on killing people and ruining economies in all countries essentially forever. The way to minimize deaths in your own country is to end the global pandemic as fast as possible and that means vaccinating the worst-hit places first and all the places next.
That said, the country most likely to get this wrong and take a Fuck You, I Got Mine attitude toward vaccination elsewhere also happens to be the pandemic epicentre this time around. The T**** administration's Four Seasons Total Incompetence isn't exactly cancelling out its parochial short-sightedness but at least is not acting as a force multiplier for it in this instance.
posted by flabdablet at 1:50 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
Failure to do exactly this would require the same kind of bullshit short-term thinking that causes administrations run by fools to start their lockdowns too late and end them too early.
The point of vaccination in the face of a pandemic is to reduce the disease's overall reproduction rate below 1. If that can be achieved, the pandemic will eventually burn out. If not, it will keep on killing people and ruining economies in all countries essentially forever. The way to minimize deaths in your own country is to end the global pandemic as fast as possible and that means vaccinating the worst-hit places first and all the places next.
That said, the country most likely to get this wrong and take a Fuck You, I Got Mine attitude toward vaccination elsewhere also happens to be the pandemic epicentre this time around. The T**** administration's Four Seasons Total Incompetence isn't exactly cancelling out its parochial short-sightedness but at least is not acting as a force multiplier for it in this instance.
posted by flabdablet at 1:50 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
One of my colleagues, a pediatrician and medical historian, has been saying for months that Americans are allergic is triage -- as soon as something is perceived as scarce, Americans want it ASAP. I mean, literally the 7th comment in this thread is a contextless "How can one get a shot asap?"
I don't think that's a uniquely American mentality, but it sure is prevalent, and the tiered, semi-intentionally racist system (best available care for rich white men, then rich white women, then an entrenched implicit hierarchy for everyone else) is really not going to help matters.
For H1N1 distribution in NYC, investment bankers got the shot weeks before health care workers or nursing home residents or anyone at higher risk than 20 something dudebros. The exact same thing will happen this time, in a much larger scale. Cash talks, others... are intubated.
posted by basalganglia at 3:35 AM on December 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't think that's a uniquely American mentality, but it sure is prevalent, and the tiered, semi-intentionally racist system (best available care for rich white men, then rich white women, then an entrenched implicit hierarchy for everyone else) is really not going to help matters.
For H1N1 distribution in NYC, investment bankers got the shot weeks before health care workers or nursing home residents or anyone at higher risk than 20 something dudebros. The exact same thing will happen this time, in a much larger scale. Cash talks, others... are intubated.
posted by basalganglia at 3:35 AM on December 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
If somebody told me "you can get vaccinated today, but it'll cost you $5000, and over the next few months, we'll use 99% of that money to vaccinate 99 people who aren't lucky enough to be able to do this" ... I'd do it in a second, despite the risk of dying from cognitive dissonance.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:55 AM on December 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 3:55 AM on December 10, 2020 [11 favorites]
This will get worked out. There will be a few people who cannot tolerate the vaccine, this is always true of all vaccines, that is why we vaccinate to achieve herd immunity.
Another factor is that we've become (mostly) completely accustomed to vaccines with few to almost no risk of serious side effects, because most of us never get the vaccines (like smallpox) with somewhat more risk of adverse reactions. If everybody gets a covid vaccine (they won't, but work with me here) there are going to be a lot of people who have a Very Bad Day, some people who need significant medical attention, and the occasional person may well die. I'm not sure media is prepared to cover that responsibly.
For comparison, if we vaccinated everyone in the US and Canada against smallpox today, we'd probably see near 15k deaths from vaccine reactions. (Note: though in practice we wouldn't vaccinate the people most at risk from these reactions). We just haven't had to deal with that sort of vaccine in many decades.
posted by Justinian at 4:07 AM on December 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
Another factor is that we've become (mostly) completely accustomed to vaccines with few to almost no risk of serious side effects, because most of us never get the vaccines (like smallpox) with somewhat more risk of adverse reactions. If everybody gets a covid vaccine (they won't, but work with me here) there are going to be a lot of people who have a Very Bad Day, some people who need significant medical attention, and the occasional person may well die. I'm not sure media is prepared to cover that responsibly.
For comparison, if we vaccinated everyone in the US and Canada against smallpox today, we'd probably see near 15k deaths from vaccine reactions. (Note: though in practice we wouldn't vaccinate the people most at risk from these reactions). We just haven't had to deal with that sort of vaccine in many decades.
posted by Justinian at 4:07 AM on December 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
If somebody told me "you can get vaccinated today, but it'll cost you $5000, and over the next few months, we'll use 99% of that money to vaccinate 99 people who aren't lucky enough to be able to do this" I'd do it in a second.
How very altruistic of you.
The real calculus is, would you pay 5000 to vaccinate those other 99 people first, and then yourself.
You don't have to answer, it's a rhetorical question, but the Me First Then Beneficence for the Poors mindset is not what is going to get us out of this mess.
posted by basalganglia at 4:23 AM on December 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
How very altruistic of you.
The real calculus is, would you pay 5000 to vaccinate those other 99 people first, and then yourself.
You don't have to answer, it's a rhetorical question, but the Me First Then Beneficence for the Poors mindset is not what is going to get us out of this mess.
posted by basalganglia at 4:23 AM on December 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is where the hand-claps between each word come in: That's. What. Taxes. Are. For.
That this discussion is even being had rhetorically is a disgusting indictment of the western mindset.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:35 AM on December 10, 2020 [14 favorites]
That this discussion is even being had rhetorically is a disgusting indictment of the western mindset.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:35 AM on December 10, 2020 [14 favorites]
basalganglia - Yes, everything except the first sentence is more or less my point. Welcome to it. Plus, I don't have that option, but countries basically do. And I feel like that question is close to the ethics of the matter here
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 4:36 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 4:36 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Any idea how one can get a shot asap?
Be the Queen of England*
(*and Scotland, Wales, Canada, Australia and her other realms and dominions)
As a physician whose practice is caring for frail old people, I likely will be in the first group to get vaccinated in the US, or at least in an early round. Would it be acceptable to make a post on Facebook about getting it? My Facebook posts are seen only by relatives and true friends.
It would probably contribute a little towards attempts to build consensus that ordinary sensible people are getting vaccinated. My understanding is that the attitudes of people you trust are some of the most effective persuasive factors for (or against) vaccination because people trust people.
posted by plonkee at 4:50 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
Be the Queen of England*
(*and Scotland, Wales, Canada, Australia and her other realms and dominions)
As a physician whose practice is caring for frail old people, I likely will be in the first group to get vaccinated in the US, or at least in an early round. Would it be acceptable to make a post on Facebook about getting it? My Facebook posts are seen only by relatives and true friends.
It would probably contribute a little towards attempts to build consensus that ordinary sensible people are getting vaccinated. My understanding is that the attitudes of people you trust are some of the most effective persuasive factors for (or against) vaccination because people trust people.
posted by plonkee at 4:50 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
kleinsteradikaleminderheit, sorry for misreading your sarcasm. I have heard literally that same argument played straight, multiple times, and generally have no confidence in the ability of anyone to be even a smidge altruistic in times of scarcity. Being Grumpy McGrumperson means that sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised!
posted by basalganglia at 5:27 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by basalganglia at 5:27 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Rich countries can delay their vaccinations for the common good, but only when they have practically eliminated the virus.
Australia has a delayed rollout scheduled to start in March and I expect New Zealand to be on a similar timetable . China is currently exporting vaccines to win diplomatic goodwill.
If any of these countries had an outbreak I expect plans would change immediately.
posted by zymil at 5:38 AM on December 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
Australia has a delayed rollout scheduled to start in March and I expect New Zealand to be on a similar timetable . China is currently exporting vaccines to win diplomatic goodwill.
If any of these countries had an outbreak I expect plans would change immediately.
posted by zymil at 5:38 AM on December 10, 2020 [4 favorites]
If somebody told me "you can get vaccinated today, but it'll cost you $5000, and over the next few months, we'll use 99% of that money to vaccinate 99 people who aren't lucky enough to be able to do this" ... I'd do it in a second, despite the risk of dying from cognitive dissonance.
I was more jealous that you have $5000 to spare for anything at all.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:17 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
I was more jealous that you have $5000 to spare for anything at all.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:17 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
basalganglia: the Me First Then Beneficence for the Poors mindset is not what is going to get us out of this mess.
It still beats the ever popular Me First Then Fuck the Poors mindset.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:19 AM on December 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
It still beats the ever popular Me First Then Fuck the Poors mindset.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:19 AM on December 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
> I was more jealous that you have $5000 to spare for anything at all.
It's a Gedankenexperiment! If you (or I) could spare that kind of money, would we do it? How would we feel about it, safe but slightly shitty? Shitty but safe? Safe and more or less OK because the selfishness arguably enabled something good happening down the line that wouldn't have happened otherwise?
More importantly, similar decisions are being made for us, on a surprisingly old-fashioned nation-state level... right now, and very fast. At the very least, it should be an opportunity to examine how we feel about that, and what the ideal state of affairs would be.
If and when it's my turn to get vaccinated, am I obligated to say "No, give this shot to a Covid nurse in India"...? Because that would be fair and ethical, but also it's not going to happen -- they're just going to say OK, move along, we'll vaccinate the next dude in line instead.
Old and unfair structures are all we have at this point; they suck but at least they exist... OK if you'll excuse me, I need to go watch some videos with puppies now.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:06 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's a Gedankenexperiment! If you (or I) could spare that kind of money, would we do it? How would we feel about it, safe but slightly shitty? Shitty but safe? Safe and more or less OK because the selfishness arguably enabled something good happening down the line that wouldn't have happened otherwise?
More importantly, similar decisions are being made for us, on a surprisingly old-fashioned nation-state level... right now, and very fast. At the very least, it should be an opportunity to examine how we feel about that, and what the ideal state of affairs would be.
If and when it's my turn to get vaccinated, am I obligated to say "No, give this shot to a Covid nurse in India"...? Because that would be fair and ethical, but also it's not going to happen -- they're just going to say OK, move along, we'll vaccinate the next dude in line instead.
Old and unfair structures are all we have at this point; they suck but at least they exist... OK if you'll excuse me, I need to go watch some videos with puppies now.
posted by kleinsteradikaleminderheit at 8:06 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Is it ok to include COVID-19 discussion that's not directly vaccine-relevant here?
I just came across this Mel article on erectile dysfunction as a potential long-term consequence of COVID-19 infection. That's interesting and surprising, and I wonder if that news could have an impact on risk-taking by young people who don't see the disease as particularly dangerous.
posted by medusa at 8:11 AM on December 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
I just came across this Mel article on erectile dysfunction as a potential long-term consequence of COVID-19 infection. That's interesting and surprising, and I wonder if that news could have an impact on risk-taking by young people who don't see the disease as particularly dangerous.
posted by medusa at 8:11 AM on December 10, 2020 [6 favorites]
Guys guys I just heard that nation states tend to look out for their own interests first
(Seriously, if you want to have the United Nations equitably distribute resources I'm all for it, but we're talking about eliminating global disparity and nationalism, vaccine distribution is just the most obvious symptom in our faces right now)
posted by benzenedream at 8:49 AM on December 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
(Seriously, if you want to have the United Nations equitably distribute resources I'm all for it, but we're talking about eliminating global disparity and nationalism, vaccine distribution is just the most obvious symptom in our faces right now)
posted by benzenedream at 8:49 AM on December 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
Biden To Have Entire WH East And West Wings Showered With Disinfectant Right After Trump Leaves
President-elect Joe Biden and his transition team are reportedly already making plans to ensure that the White House, which has been plagued with a series of COVID-19 infections thanks to President Donald Trump’s disregard for protective measures against the virus, is safe enough for the 78-year-old Biden to move in come January 20.
First Watergate, now Fumigate.
posted by adept256 at 9:05 AM on December 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
President-elect Joe Biden and his transition team are reportedly already making plans to ensure that the White House, which has been plagued with a series of COVID-19 infections thanks to President Donald Trump’s disregard for protective measures against the virus, is safe enough for the 78-year-old Biden to move in come January 20.
First Watergate, now Fumigate.
posted by adept256 at 9:05 AM on December 10, 2020 [8 favorites]
That reminds me, Obama, Bush and Clinton have agreed to get the jab on TV but no word about Trump. He's going to claim responsibility as if he's been personally in the lab for the last nine months but whatever man, just make sure your cult understands it's safe.
I mean, remember what he did for mask-wearing?
posted by adept256 at 9:13 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
I mean, remember what he did for mask-wearing?
posted by adept256 at 9:13 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Will someone who has been confirmed to have had covid gain anything by getting vaccinated? If not then short term I'd expect vaccinating those people would be contraindicated (long term it might be better or cheaper to just vaccinate everyone who can be vaccinated). Do they test for polio antibodies before vaccination today or did they in the case of smallpox? Here they test for antibodies for chickenpox before you can get the shingles vaccine.
posted by Mitheral at 9:37 AM on December 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 9:37 AM on December 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
We need more data but it's very unlikely vaccinating someone who had Covid would help either them or the public health. I'd probably say in the US we should just vaccinate everyone you can convince to take it, but the "correct" answer probably involves a lot of assumptions and tradeoffs.
They didn't have antibody tests in the age of smallpox vaccinations or the heyday of polio vaccination. They don't test for polio today. The vaccination is probably cheaper than the test.
posted by mark k at 9:50 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
They didn't have antibody tests in the age of smallpox vaccinations or the heyday of polio vaccination. They don't test for polio today. The vaccination is probably cheaper than the test.
posted by mark k at 9:50 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
He should do it for the optics, and it would save lives. But we all know that he won't. It involves hiking up his sleeve and exposing the bare skin of his upper arm.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:21 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:21 AM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
So far most of the things I've read say to still get vaccinated even if you've already had it because post-Covid immunity seems to only last a few months, some people get it again, etc. But I'm sure Trump is absolutely immune forever because he is a karma Houdini.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:42 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:42 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
Because I worry about this becoming a meme:
post-Covid immunity seems to only last a few months
There's not really evidence that this is true in any sort of general way. There've been various reports on antibody persistence (with the bad news predominating when people quote studies because it's 2020 and everything sucks) but the bulk of the evidence has been towards lasting immunity, which involves more than just circulating antibodies. See here for example.
I also think, do to our horrible management of this, that at this point that the reports of reinfection would be common if people generally didn't get immunity. There'd be, for example, thousands of cases of it in New York in the last week alone, instead of a few dozen worldwide.
posted by mark k at 11:03 AM on December 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
post-Covid immunity seems to only last a few months
There's not really evidence that this is true in any sort of general way. There've been various reports on antibody persistence (with the bad news predominating when people quote studies because it's 2020 and everything sucks) but the bulk of the evidence has been towards lasting immunity, which involves more than just circulating antibodies. See here for example.
I also think, do to our horrible management of this, that at this point that the reports of reinfection would be common if people generally didn't get immunity. There'd be, for example, thousands of cases of it in New York in the last week alone, instead of a few dozen worldwide.
posted by mark k at 11:03 AM on December 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
Antibody tests have false positives. It's safer just to vaccinate everybody unless there is a proven harm that would come from vaccinating an individual.
posted by benzenedream at 11:59 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 11:59 AM on December 10, 2020 [3 favorites]
I saw a news story about one of the first people vaccinated in the UK and he had gotten it and survived, so at least the UK is vaccinating people regardless of whether they've already had it.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:03 PM on December 10, 2020
posted by BungaDunga at 12:03 PM on December 10, 2020
My dad got his vaccine on Tuesday. No signs of super-soldier endurance and strength yet, but I'm still hopeful.
posted by ntk at 12:54 PM on December 10, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by ntk at 12:54 PM on December 10, 2020 [15 favorites]
Check if he shows up on your phone's bluetooth for pairing what with the microchip and everything.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 1:18 PM on December 10, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by Hairy Lobster at 1:18 PM on December 10, 2020 [22 favorites]
Was watching the Pfizer FDA authorization stream on CNN and thought to google the study number, and it turns out you can download it from the FDA here. Safety data's on Page 33. Based on the tables it looks like:
40% chance of headache/fatigue over the next day or two
10% chance of muscle/joint aches or chills
(Technically: 10% and 1% chances of diarrhea and vomiting but the placebo group actually did worse, so...)
Things that are in any way unusual:
4 of the participants who took the vaccine developed Bell's palsy symptoms (temporary facial muscle paralysis) which is within the usual statistical range for the study demographic, but 0 of the placebo group did. The first reported case cleared up and the other three occurred too late in the study for outcome to be included in this report. While, again, 1 in 5,000 participants isn't out of line with normal distribution the fact that it was so lopsided between the groups means that Pfizer (and presumably the FDA) intend to keep an eye on it.
Potential allergy complications appear slight but not, like, entirely non-existent:
posted by Ryvar at 1:53 PM on December 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
40% chance of headache/fatigue over the next day or two
10% chance of muscle/joint aches or chills
(Technically: 10% and 1% chances of diarrhea and vomiting but the placebo group actually did worse, so...)
Things that are in any way unusual:
4 of the participants who took the vaccine developed Bell's palsy symptoms (temporary facial muscle paralysis) which is within the usual statistical range for the study demographic, but 0 of the placebo group did. The first reported case cleared up and the other three occurred too late in the study for outcome to be included in this report. While, again, 1 in 5,000 participants isn't out of line with normal distribution the fact that it was so lopsided between the groups means that Pfizer (and presumably the FDA) intend to keep an eye on it.
Potential allergy complications appear slight but not, like, entirely non-existent:
The SMQs, conducted on the phase 2/3 all-enrolled safety population, revealed a slight numerical imbalance of adverse events potentially representing allergic reactions, with more participants reporting hypersensitivity-related adverse events in the vaccine group (137 [0.63%]) compared with the placebo group (111 [0.51%]). No imbalances between treatment groups were evident for any of the other SMQs evaluated.I'd love for any actual doctors to correct me on the above but having read it through this looks like a real winner on every level.
posted by Ryvar at 1:53 PM on December 10, 2020 [5 favorites]
Enjoy your privilege.
Rich countries leaving rest of the world behind on Covid vaccines, warns Gates Foundation.
Deals struck by wealthy nations to secure treatments could leave the world’s poorest people unvaccinated without urgent action.
Nine out of 10 people in 70 low-income countries are unlikely to be vaccinated against Covid-19 next year because the majority of the most promising vaccines coming on-stream have been bought up by the west, campaigners have said.
The United States might have to contend with “anti-vaxxers” but in India, the challenges before the state in administering the Covid vaccine will likely have less to do with individual beliefs, and more to do with privilege.
posted by adamvasco at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
Rich countries leaving rest of the world behind on Covid vaccines, warns Gates Foundation.
Deals struck by wealthy nations to secure treatments could leave the world’s poorest people unvaccinated without urgent action.
Nine out of 10 people in 70 low-income countries are unlikely to be vaccinated against Covid-19 next year because the majority of the most promising vaccines coming on-stream have been bought up by the west, campaigners have said.
The United States might have to contend with “anti-vaxxers” but in India, the challenges before the state in administering the Covid vaccine will likely have less to do with individual beliefs, and more to do with privilege.
posted by adamvasco at 1:56 PM on December 10, 2020 [1 favorite]
As a physician whose practice is caring for frail old people, I likely will be in the first group to get vaccinated in the US, or at least in an early round. Would it be acceptable to make a post on Facebook about getting it? My Facebook posts are seen only by relatives and true friends.
Yes, because your friends and family are going to talk to other people and will say, "I know a doctor..."
posted by dances with hamsters at 6:03 PM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
Yes, because your friends and family are going to talk to other people and will say, "I know a doctor..."
posted by dances with hamsters at 6:03 PM on December 10, 2020 [2 favorites]
There's a short questionnaire on the NYT that will give you a sense of where you are in line to get the virus.
I've got 268.7 million people in front of me in the US.
posted by bendy at 9:06 PM on December 10, 2020
I've got 268.7 million people in front of me in the US.
posted by bendy at 9:06 PM on December 10, 2020
There was a thread on that recently I believe. 268.7 millionth in line is a very popular spot to be.
I'm much earlier, unless I lose a few of the Covid pounds I've gained, then that's where I am too.
posted by mark k at 9:31 PM on December 10, 2020
I'm much earlier, unless I lose a few of the Covid pounds I've gained, then that's where I am too.
posted by mark k at 9:31 PM on December 10, 2020
Confirmed reinfection, like, proven behind a shadow of a doubt held up to a rigorous scientific standard, is rare. This is because the standard is very high - you have to get sick twice, with positive tests on both ends, and then you have to get infected by two different strains. If you get reinfected with the same strain, science says it doesn't count! I've been following some of the Long Covid groups though and there have been enough anecdotal questioning the idea that reinfection is rare from people that have caught it again, that personally I think the prudent thing to do is believe it's possible, and for those that have previously been infected take the same precautions as everybody else. Wear masks, wash your hards, refuse to attend indoor doorknob licking parties.
Science's open question or reinfection is whether or not there's some reservoir of the virus in the body lying dormant, which is why it's only counting reinfection from different strains, which is going to be rare simply due to needing to have gotten sick from two different strains and then having expensive insurance that would cover that kind of testing, and also to have caught it the first time after testing was widely available. This excludes many cases in NYC in the spring. That's not the same as reinfection being rare, just that the data to prove it is. Maybe tons of people are getting sick again, months later, from a pocket of virus that was lying dormant in their body - Covid wouldn't be the first virus to do so (eg herpes/other STDs can go dormant for years between attacks), or maybe reinfection is far more common than limited data suggests. Science just doesn't know, but this is a new virus that we're all still learning about. Wear a mask.
posted by fragmede at 8:40 AM on December 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Science's open question or reinfection is whether or not there's some reservoir of the virus in the body lying dormant, which is why it's only counting reinfection from different strains, which is going to be rare simply due to needing to have gotten sick from two different strains and then having expensive insurance that would cover that kind of testing, and also to have caught it the first time after testing was widely available. This excludes many cases in NYC in the spring. That's not the same as reinfection being rare, just that the data to prove it is. Maybe tons of people are getting sick again, months later, from a pocket of virus that was lying dormant in their body - Covid wouldn't be the first virus to do so (eg herpes/other STDs can go dormant for years between attacks), or maybe reinfection is far more common than limited data suggests. Science just doesn't know, but this is a new virus that we're all still learning about. Wear a mask.
posted by fragmede at 8:40 AM on December 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Oxford Covid vaccine to be combined with Sputnik jab for trial
RAPS Covid-19 Vaccine Tracker Updated 10 December.
posted by adamvasco at 9:01 AM on December 11, 2020
RAPS Covid-19 Vaccine Tracker Updated 10 December.
posted by adamvasco at 9:01 AM on December 11, 2020
I've never been so simultaneously horrified and hopeful about the pandemic than I am today. My US state has 500K vaccine doses arriving next week at the same time as the country is having a 9/11-level death count every day.
posted by gwint at 9:58 AM on December 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by gwint at 9:58 AM on December 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
White House orders FDA chief to authorize Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine Friday or submit his resignation
They’re trying to undermine trust in the FDA approval process.
posted by rdr at 12:07 PM on December 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
They’re trying to undermine trust in the FDA approval process.
posted by rdr at 12:07 PM on December 11, 2020 [5 favorites]
the country is having a 9/11-level death count every day.
9/11 gave us the PATRIOT act, but wearing a mask is taking away your freedom.
posted by adept256 at 1:07 PM on December 11, 2020 [11 favorites]
9/11 gave us the PATRIOT act, but wearing a mask is taking away your freedom.
posted by adept256 at 1:07 PM on December 11, 2020 [11 favorites]
My US state has 500K vaccine doses arriving next week at the same time as the country is having a 9/11-level death count every day.
I’m kinda holding my breath as the vaccine is distributed. 2020 has taught me that nothing in unimaginable anymore, and I can easily imagine anti-maskers and anti-vaxers doing...something?...to disrupt distribution.
There used to be a time that I would have laughed-off such an idea. Now, though...*gah*
posted by Thorzdad at 2:00 PM on December 11, 2020
I’m kinda holding my breath as the vaccine is distributed. 2020 has taught me that nothing in unimaginable anymore, and I can easily imagine anti-maskers and anti-vaxers doing...something?...to disrupt distribution.
There used to be a time that I would have laughed-off such an idea. Now, though...*gah*
posted by Thorzdad at 2:00 PM on December 11, 2020
...Mel article on erectile dysfunction as a potential long-term consequence of COVID-19 infection.
Unfortunately, I think ED may be part of a larger infertility issue first identified in the spring:
The need for urogenital tract monitoring in COVID-19: Effect on the Testes; After recovery from COVID-19, young men who are interested in having children should receive a consultation regarding their fertility. (Nature, April 20, 2020)
SARS-CoV-2 and Male Infertility: Possible Multifaceted Pathology (Reprod Sci. 2020 Jul 10, via PubMed)
Impaired spermatogenesis in COVID-19 patients [Autoimmune orchitis, Oligospermia] (The Lancet, Nov. 1, 2020)
COVID-19 Can Infect Testes with Potential Implications for Male Fertility (University of Miami Health/Miller School of Medicine, Nov. 5, 2020)
--
On Tuesday, the UK's Margaret Keenan, who turns 91 next week, made history as the world’s first person to receive the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine outside of trial conditions. [The Onion, a satirical publication: ‘I Am Immortal!’ Screams 90-Year-Old British Woman Embarking On Epic Post-Vaccination Bender]
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:54 PM on December 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
Unfortunately, I think ED may be part of a larger infertility issue first identified in the spring:
The need for urogenital tract monitoring in COVID-19: Effect on the Testes; After recovery from COVID-19, young men who are interested in having children should receive a consultation regarding their fertility. (Nature, April 20, 2020)
SARS-CoV-2 and Male Infertility: Possible Multifaceted Pathology (Reprod Sci. 2020 Jul 10, via PubMed)
Impaired spermatogenesis in COVID-19 patients [Autoimmune orchitis, Oligospermia] (The Lancet, Nov. 1, 2020)
COVID-19 Can Infect Testes with Potential Implications for Male Fertility (University of Miami Health/Miller School of Medicine, Nov. 5, 2020)
--
On Tuesday, the UK's Margaret Keenan, who turns 91 next week, made history as the world’s first person to receive the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine outside of trial conditions. [The Onion, a satirical publication: ‘I Am Immortal!’ Screams 90-Year-Old British Woman Embarking On Epic Post-Vaccination Bender]
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:54 PM on December 11, 2020 [8 favorites]
I don't get why the male infertility/ED data aren't being shouted from the rooftops. This is something that conservative hetero white men care about very...maybe a bit too...much.
posted by medusa at 7:29 PM on December 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by medusa at 7:29 PM on December 11, 2020 [3 favorites]
Dr. Anthony Fauci Appeals to Black Community: ‘The Vaccine That You’re Going to Be Taking Was Developed by an African American Woman’ (The Root, Dec. 10, 2020) [Dr. Kizzmekia Corbett is the lead scientist for the coronavirus team at the NIH’s Vaccine Research Center. "In response to the ongoing global COVID-19 pandemic, the vaccine concept incorporated in mRNA-1273 was designed by Dr. Corbett’s team from viral sequence data and rapidly deployed to industry partner, Moderna, Inc., for U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved Phase 1 clinical trial, which unprecedently began only 66 days from the viral sequence release."]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:30 AM on December 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:30 AM on December 12, 2020 [5 favorites]
“post-Covid immunity seems to only last a few months“
I am tested monthly (part of a surveillance study of UK healthcare workers) and have had antibodies for almost nine months now. I am far from unusual in that.
I’ll still have the vaccine when/if offered, because honestly fussing and rules-lawyering takes up too much organisational time, and my hospital virology/occupational health dept don’t have the resources to argue back and forth about who does and doesn’t need it with every single staff member. If they tell me to have it I’ll have it, if they tell me I don’t need it, I won’t. They can focus their time on CEV staff and people with a history of anaphylaxis.
posted by tinkletown at 9:58 AM on December 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am tested monthly (part of a surveillance study of UK healthcare workers) and have had antibodies for almost nine months now. I am far from unusual in that.
I’ll still have the vaccine when/if offered, because honestly fussing and rules-lawyering takes up too much organisational time, and my hospital virology/occupational health dept don’t have the resources to argue back and forth about who does and doesn’t need it with every single staff member. If they tell me to have it I’ll have it, if they tell me I don’t need it, I won’t. They can focus their time on CEV staff and people with a history of anaphylaxis.
posted by tinkletown at 9:58 AM on December 12, 2020 [8 favorites]
medusa: Think of the sales of Viagra and Cialis though.
posted by SansPoint at 10:10 AM on December 12, 2020
posted by SansPoint at 10:10 AM on December 12, 2020
> > White House orders FDA chief to authorize Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine Friday or submit his resignation
> They’re trying to undermine trust in the FDA approval process.
I figured Trump just wanted to be able to brag about an achievement.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:09 PM on December 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
> They’re trying to undermine trust in the FDA approval process.
I figured Trump just wanted to be able to brag about an achievement.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:09 PM on December 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
sales of Viagra
Also from Pfizer (though now generic in the US)
posted by basalganglia at 5:14 PM on December 12, 2020
Also from Pfizer (though now generic in the US)
posted by basalganglia at 5:14 PM on December 12, 2020
Has a year of living with Covid-19 rewired our brains? The pandemic is expected to precipitate a mental health crisis, but perhaps also a chance to approach life with new clarity
posted by homunculus at 4:37 PM on December 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 4:37 PM on December 13, 2020 [2 favorites]
ICU nurse in New York among the first people in the US to get authorized coronavirus vaccine
posted by zixyer at 9:01 AM on December 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by zixyer at 9:01 AM on December 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Here in the Netherlands, rollout will start next month, if we're lucky. Minister De Jonge has overpromised a bit, that date of January 4 he mentioned is not happening. But it is on the way.
In the meantime, our numbers are bad. Not US-levels bad, but still bad. Prime minister Rutte is, as I type, announcing a national lockdown for a period of five weeks.
All non-essential shops, gyms, schools, libraries, musea and other public places will be closed. Restaurants were already closed (except for takeout).
Good times. Best of luck, all of you out there. And please be careful.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:35 AM on December 14, 2020 [4 favorites]
In the meantime, our numbers are bad. Not US-levels bad, but still bad. Prime minister Rutte is, as I type, announcing a national lockdown for a period of five weeks.
All non-essential shops, gyms, schools, libraries, musea and other public places will be closed. Restaurants were already closed (except for takeout).
Good times. Best of luck, all of you out there. And please be careful.
posted by Too-Ticky at 10:35 AM on December 14, 2020 [4 favorites]
‘Not Morally Produced’: Catholic Bishops Raise Concern Over COVID-19 Vaccine (CBS, Nov. 19, 2020)
U.S. bishops’ internal memo: Catholics can take Covid-19 vaccines (America magazine, Nov. 23, 2020) Days after some Catholic bishops shared misinformation on social media about Covid-19 vaccines that may soon hit the market, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops distributed a memo to all U.S. bishops stating that at least two of the vaccines are considered ethically sound. The memo also reminded bishops that church teaching allows for even the widespread use of vaccines whose origins are considered ethically unsound when other treatments are unavailable. [...] The bishops’ memo states that some of the testing of the vaccines was done with what it called a “tainted cell line” but said the connection between the two vaccines and abortion is “relatively remote.” [...] “Neither the Pfizer nor the Moderna vaccine involved the use of cell lines that originated in fetal tissue taken from the body of an aborted baby at any level of design, development, or production,” reads the Nov. 23 memo, signed by Bishop Kevin C. Rhoades, who chairs the bishops’ committee on doctrine, and Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann, the head of the committee on pro-life activities.
Catholics Are Fighting Among Themselves About a COVID Vaccine (VICE, Nov. 24, 2020) After two bishops questioned the ethics of potential vaccines, an internal memo from the church contradicted some "confusion."
UPDATE: Use of Pfizer, Moderna COVID-19 vaccines is morally acceptable, say bishops (Catholic News Service, Nov. 24, 2020)
In the Lozier Institute report, the Astra Zeneca and the J&J vaccines are flagged as "DOES use abortion-derived cell line" in development/production and lab testing.
Moral Considerations Regarding the New Covid-19 Vaccines (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Dec. 11, 2020)
U.S. Bishop Chairmen for Pro-Life and Doctrine Address Ethical Concerns on the New COVID-19 Vaccines (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Dec. 14, 2020)
UK probes whether COVID-19 vaccine caused allergic reactions (AP, Dec. 9, 2020) Britain’s medical regulator warned Wednesday that people with a history of serious allergic reactions shouldn’t get the COVID-19 vaccine from Pfizer and BioNTech, and investigators looked into whether two reactions on the first day of the U.K.’s vaccination program were linked to the shot. The advice was issued on a “precautionary basis,” and the people who had the reactions had recovered, said professor Stephen Powis, medical director for National Health Service in England. Pfizer and BioNTech said they were working with investigators “to better understand each case and its causes.″
AP-NORC poll: Only half in US want shots as vaccine nears (AP, Dec. 9, 2020) In the survey of 1,117 American adults conducted Dec. 3-7, about 3 in 10 said they are very or extremely confident that the first available vaccines will have been properly tested for safety and effectiveness. About an equal number said they are not confident. The rest fell somewhere in the middle. [...] Among those who don’t want to get vaccinated, about 3 in 10 said they aren’t concerned about getting seriously ill from the coronavirus, and around a quarter said the outbreak isn’t as serious as some people say. About 7 in 10 of those who said they won’t get vaccinated are concerned about side effects. Pfizer and Moderna say testing has uncovered no serious ones so far. As with many vaccines, recipients may experience fever, fatigue or sore arms from the injection, signs the immune system is revving up.
The polio vaccine had Elvis. Can celebrities similarly spur acceptance of the Covid-19 vaccine? (STAT News, Dec. 14, 2020)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:20 PM on December 14, 2020
U.S. bishops’ internal memo: Catholics can take Covid-19 vaccines (America magazine, Nov. 23, 2020) Days after some Catholic bishops shared misinformation on social media about Covid-19 vaccines that may soon hit the market, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops distributed a memo to all U.S. bishops stating that at least two of the vaccines are considered ethically sound. The memo also reminded bishops that church teaching allows for even the widespread use of vaccines whose origins are considered ethically unsound when other treatments are unavailable. [...] The bishops’ memo states that some of the testing of the vaccines was done with what it called a “tainted cell line” but said the connection between the two vaccines and abortion is “relatively remote.” [...] “Neither the Pfizer nor the Moderna vaccine involved the use of cell lines that originated in fetal tissue taken from the body of an aborted baby at any level of design, development, or production,” reads the Nov. 23 memo, signed by Bishop Kevin C. Rhoades, who chairs the bishops’ committee on doctrine, and Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann, the head of the committee on pro-life activities.
Catholics Are Fighting Among Themselves About a COVID Vaccine (VICE, Nov. 24, 2020) After two bishops questioned the ethics of potential vaccines, an internal memo from the church contradicted some "confusion."
UPDATE: Use of Pfizer, Moderna COVID-19 vaccines is morally acceptable, say bishops (Catholic News Service, Nov. 24, 2020)
In the Lozier Institute report, the Astra Zeneca and the J&J vaccines are flagged as "DOES use abortion-derived cell line" in development/production and lab testing.
Moral Considerations Regarding the New Covid-19 Vaccines (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Dec. 11, 2020)
U.S. Bishop Chairmen for Pro-Life and Doctrine Address Ethical Concerns on the New COVID-19 Vaccines (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Dec. 14, 2020)
UK probes whether COVID-19 vaccine caused allergic reactions (AP, Dec. 9, 2020) Britain’s medical regulator warned Wednesday that people with a history of serious allergic reactions shouldn’t get the COVID-19 vaccine from Pfizer and BioNTech, and investigators looked into whether two reactions on the first day of the U.K.’s vaccination program were linked to the shot. The advice was issued on a “precautionary basis,” and the people who had the reactions had recovered, said professor Stephen Powis, medical director for National Health Service in England. Pfizer and BioNTech said they were working with investigators “to better understand each case and its causes.″
AP-NORC poll: Only half in US want shots as vaccine nears (AP, Dec. 9, 2020) In the survey of 1,117 American adults conducted Dec. 3-7, about 3 in 10 said they are very or extremely confident that the first available vaccines will have been properly tested for safety and effectiveness. About an equal number said they are not confident. The rest fell somewhere in the middle. [...] Among those who don’t want to get vaccinated, about 3 in 10 said they aren’t concerned about getting seriously ill from the coronavirus, and around a quarter said the outbreak isn’t as serious as some people say. About 7 in 10 of those who said they won’t get vaccinated are concerned about side effects. Pfizer and Moderna say testing has uncovered no serious ones so far. As with many vaccines, recipients may experience fever, fatigue or sore arms from the injection, signs the immune system is revving up.
The polio vaccine had Elvis. Can celebrities similarly spur acceptance of the Covid-19 vaccine? (STAT News, Dec. 14, 2020)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:20 PM on December 14, 2020
Man, US Catholicism is fucking bizarre, and so far outside of the mainstream for the Catholic Church in most of the rest of the world.
posted by Dysk at 8:44 PM on December 14, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 8:44 PM on December 14, 2020 [4 favorites]
The Jesuits seem OK, a far as US Catholicism goes...
(Have a child who went to a Jesuit High School and Santa Clara University, and despite my aggressive atheist mindset, didn't have much of a problem with their ethos).
posted by Windopaene at 9:05 PM on December 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
(Have a child who went to a Jesuit High School and Santa Clara University, and despite my aggressive atheist mindset, didn't have much of a problem with their ethos).
posted by Windopaene at 9:05 PM on December 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Jordan Kisner writes about how to decide who should get the vaccine first—and last (in the U.S.A.):
What the Chaos in Hospitals Is Doing to Doctors: Politicians’ refusal to admit when hospitals are overwhelmed puts a terrible burden on health-care providers.
What the Chaos in Hospitals Is Doing to Doctors: Politicians’ refusal to admit when hospitals are overwhelmed puts a terrible burden on health-care providers.
The chaos and moral confusion that COVID‑19 has wreaked in American ICUs—first in New York, and now all over the country—show how a leadership vacuum can generate an atomized and uncoordinated crisis response. Bioethicists fear this is a preview of what will happen with vaccine allocation. (A new presidential administration will likely change the federal response to the pandemic—Biden’s announcement of his COVID‑19 task force has been met with hope—but whether and how that will affect the course of distribution remains to be seen.) As with the disease itself, the people who stand to suffer most gravely are the ones already neglected or systematically “deprioritized.”posted by homunculus at 9:08 PM on December 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
One key to a just and effective vaccine plan, all the bioethicists I spoke with pointed out, is the inclusion of affected communities in the making of plans that will determine their access to care—a step that has been almost uniformly overlooked. “In how many spaces are folks who actually are essential workers invited to have conversations about what they understand their needs to be?” Yolonda Wilson asked. She pointed out that Biden’s COVID‑19 task force, while it does include a bioethicist (Ezekiel Emanuel), has no nurses, no “essential workers” other than physicians on it, and no one who specializes in rural health. “It’s good that we have a serious task force and someone who cares about having a real federal response,” Wilson said. “At the same time, if all we’re going to do is replicate power structures that leave out important voices, then I’m not sure how much work that’s doing.”
Texas wedding photographers have seen some shit
The wedding photographer had already spent an hour or two inside with the unmasked wedding party when one of the bridesmaids approached her. The woman thanked her for still showing up, considering “everything that’s going on with the groom.”posted by mark k at 4:42 PM on December 16, 2020 [6 favorites]
When the photographer asked what she meant by that, the bridesmaid said the groom had tested positive for the coronavirus the day before. “She was looking for me to be like, ‘Oh, that’s crazy,’ like I was going to agree with her that it was fine,” the photographer recalls. “So I was like, ‘What are you talking about?’ And she was like, ‘Oh no no no, don’t freak out. He doesn’t have symptoms. He’s fine.’”
The photographer, who has asthma and three kids, left with her assistant before the night was over. Her exit was tense. The wedding planner said it was the most unprofessional thing she’d ever seen. Bridesmaids accused her of heartlessly ruining an innocent woman’s wedding day. She recalls one bridesmaid telling her, “I’m a teacher, I have fourteen students. If I’m willing to risk it, why aren’t you?” Another said everyone was going to get COVID eventually, so what was the big deal? The friend of the bride who’d spilled the beans cried about being the “worst bridesmaid ever.”
Followup to my comment above linking the Pfizer study, here's a link to the Moderna study. Safety tables on page 59.
Broad strokes looks like 60~65% headache/fatigue, 40~60% muscle/joint ache/chills, they didn't see Pfizer's 0.1% allergic response or 1 in 5,000 Bell's Palsy (which may have been a statistical fluke). The second dose in particular may knock you on your ass for a day or two.
(As above: I am not any kind of medical worker though the tables are extremely straightforward. Greatly welcome anybody with medical experience correcting me if I'm misinterpreting something).
posted by Ryvar at 9:20 AM on December 17, 2020
Broad strokes looks like 60~65% headache/fatigue, 40~60% muscle/joint ache/chills, they didn't see Pfizer's 0.1% allergic response or 1 in 5,000 Bell's Palsy (which may have been a statistical fluke). The second dose in particular may knock you on your ass for a day or two.
(As above: I am not any kind of medical worker though the tables are extremely straightforward. Greatly welcome anybody with medical experience correcting me if I'm misinterpreting something).
posted by Ryvar at 9:20 AM on December 17, 2020
100% effective in preventing serious illness and 95% at preventing all illness. Woof.
posted by Justinian at 12:01 PM on December 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 12:01 PM on December 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
From that Texas wedding photographer article, wow. Just fucking wow:
God damn.
posted by Ouverture at 1:49 PM on December 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
The photographer who got sick after shooting the COVID-positive groom said her experiences throughout the pandemic have left her a little depressed. She recalled one conversation from that wedding, before she left the reception. “I have children,” she told a bridesmaid. “What if my children die?” The bridesmaid responded, “I understand, but this is her wedding day.”I think that's it. That's the quote that finally puts me over the edge into complete burn-out territory in terms of trying to make this country a better place.
God damn.
posted by Ouverture at 1:49 PM on December 17, 2020 [9 favorites]
I think it's useful to remember that
A) Texas
B) people in their early 20s are not known for empathy
C) only assholes are having 250 person weddings during a pandemic, by definition
posted by benzenedream at 2:27 PM on December 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
A) Texas
B) people in their early 20s are not known for empathy
C) only assholes are having 250 person weddings during a pandemic, by definition
posted by benzenedream at 2:27 PM on December 17, 2020 [4 favorites]
Instead of doing an Ask I though I'd drop this here. CNN today talked about people administering the vaccine finding that they could "squeeze out" "6 or maybe 7" doses out of a 5-dose vial. This doesn't make sense to me. If a vial has exactly the amount of mRNA for 5 doses it seems like if they stretch it to 6 then everybody gets 83.3% of the proper dose. Anybody else see this?
posted by achrise at 3:52 PM on December 17, 2020
posted by achrise at 3:52 PM on December 17, 2020
They overfill the vials to make it easier to dispense the liquid. There’s a little bit of waste built in.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:56 PM on December 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 3:56 PM on December 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
Right, everyone is expected to do that thing where they flick the syringe with their finger and shoot some into the air before the injection, so you gotta add a little extra for that.
posted by team lowkey at 4:17 PM on December 17, 2020
posted by team lowkey at 4:17 PM on December 17, 2020
A friend who is an immigrant cancer doctor at Seattle's Children's Hospital get's her shot next week. She was pretty psyched about it. I'm so far down the list...
posted by Windopaene at 4:34 PM on December 17, 2020
posted by Windopaene at 4:34 PM on December 17, 2020
Instead of doing an Ask I though I'd drop this here. CNN today talked about people administering the vaccine finding that they could "squeeze out" "6 or maybe 7" doses out of a 5-dose vial. This doesn't make sense to me. If a vial has exactly the amount of mRNA for 5 doses it seems like if they stretch it to 6 then everybody gets 83.3% of the proper dose. Anybody else see this?
My coworker (who is very smart) just explained this to me today! Apparently vaccine vials *always* ship with extra to account for spillage, accidents, dropped syringes, etc. So every vial actually has more than 5 doses. She said in some cases it could be as much as 20% to 40% more?! Which is really quite significant actually.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2020
My coworker (who is very smart) just explained this to me today! Apparently vaccine vials *always* ship with extra to account for spillage, accidents, dropped syringes, etc. So every vial actually has more than 5 doses. She said in some cases it could be as much as 20% to 40% more?! Which is really quite significant actually.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2020
Additionally, @niccibelli has a twitter thread about how the vials are machine-filled, and so "Because it's a machine, there's inherent variation and tolerance in any setting. For instance, if you want it to dispense 1 mL every time, sometimes you'll get 0.9 and sometimes 1.1 (I don't know the actual tolerance for Emergent's machines, this is just an example). 3/ . . . Depending on your dose and the amt that you overfill, you could have enough for an extra dose in a vial. That's what's happening here. But you can't label the vials that way, because not every vial will have an extra dose (so you end up under-promising and over-delivering) . . . "
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 5:29 PM on December 17, 2020
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 5:29 PM on December 17, 2020
States report confusion as government reduces vaccine shipments, while Pfizer says it has ‘millions’ of unclaimed doses
posted by rdr at 5:49 AM on December 18, 2020
posted by rdr at 5:49 AM on December 18, 2020
fry_shocked_notthatshocked.gif
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:14 AM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:14 AM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Apparently vaccine vials *always* ship with extra to account for spillage, accidents, dropped syringes, etc. So every vial actually has more than 5 doses.
There's a fairly clear and independent explanation of this on the CBC here.
posted by heatherlogan at 9:50 AM on December 18, 2020
There's a fairly clear and independent explanation of this on the CBC here.
posted by heatherlogan at 9:50 AM on December 18, 2020
In an overwhelming 20 to zero vote, with one abstention, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration’s vaccine advisory committee recommended that the agency authorize the second COVID-19 vaccine for emergency use in the country. (Time Magazine, Dec. 17, 2020) The FDA will now decide whether or not to take the committee’s advice; last week, the agency did follow the committee’s lead in authorizing for emergency use the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine on Dec. 11. This second vaccine, mRNA-1273, made by Massachusetts-based biotech Moderna, uses the same technology as the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine and in trials showed similar efficacy in protecting against COVID-19 disease.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:12 PM on December 18, 2020
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:12 PM on December 18, 2020
Belgian minister tweets EU's Covid vaccine price list to anger of manufacturers.
This is the list of what the EU is paying:
Oxford/AstraZeneca: €1.78
Johnson & Johnson: $8.50
Sanofi/GSK: €7.56
Pfizer/BioNTech: €12
CureVac: €10
Moderna: $18
posted by adamvasco at 1:43 PM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
This is the list of what the EU is paying:
Oxford/AstraZeneca: €1.78
Johnson & Johnson: $8.50
Sanofi/GSK: €7.56
Pfizer/BioNTech: €12
CureVac: €10
Moderna: $18
posted by adamvasco at 1:43 PM on December 18, 2020 [1 favorite]
Sweden continues to reverse course on mitigating the spread of Covid from former herd immunity like strategy, tightens restrictions put in place in November.:
posted by Mitheral at 4:07 PM on December 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
- Only 4 people per table at restaurants
- No alcohol sales after 10pm
- High schools closed to January 24th
- Mandatory mask use during peak hours on transit
- Non essential businesses closed till January 24th
- Anyone who can work from home required to
- Maximum occupancies set for retail locations and gyms. Discouraging retailers from discounting merchandise
posted by Mitheral at 4:07 PM on December 18, 2020 [2 favorites]
DeSantis: Florida shipments of vaccines are ‘on hold.’
Pfizer :‘No shipments containing the vaccine are on hold or delayed’
posted by Mitheral at 8:34 AM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
Pfizer :‘No shipments containing the vaccine are on hold or delayed’
Gov. Ron DeSantis said Tuesday that Florida could receive less than the 452,000 doses of the coronavirus vaccine that the state was expecting because of a “production issue” on the part of a vaccine manufacturer. DeSantis said that two shipments of the vaccine slated to be sent to Florida in the coming weeks are “on hold right now.”The Trump administration is doing it's regular bang up job and DeSantis is either incompetent or covering for Trump or both.
On Thursday, Pfizer, the pharmaceutical giant behind the vaccine, put out a statement which contradicted that characterization.
“Pfizer is not having any production issues with our COVID-19 vaccine, and no shipments containing the vaccine are on hold or delayed,” the statement read. “This week, we successfully shipped all 2.9 million doses that we were asked to ship by the U.S. Government to the locations specified by them. We have millions more doses sitting in our warehouse but, as of now, we have not received any shipment instructions for additional doses.”
posted by Mitheral at 8:34 AM on December 19, 2020 [1 favorite]
There is no politics, only outrage to be directed. DeSantis needs someone for the Fox seniors to blame because they're NOT FIRST!!1!
posted by benzenedream at 12:51 PM on December 19, 2020
posted by benzenedream at 12:51 PM on December 19, 2020
General Parna, head of Warp Speed, takes blame for some shipment "miscommunication" while poorly communicating what the problem was. (WaPo link)
Additional tidbit for all the Thiel haters:
posted by mark k at 9:08 PM on December 19, 2020
Across the country, governors and top health officials said their expected supply for next week had been cut without explanation by as much as 40 or 50 percent, forcing them to change their plans.He seemed to be saying they needed FDA clearance to ship, but that is not the case. He eventually just said he's not talking about the QA side anymore. I'm personally torn because I tend to give people in a massive undertaking the benefit of the doubt, but also thinking that (at the quantities we're dealing with right now) it's actually not that massive.
Additional tidbit for all the Thiel haters:
The faulty forecasts described by Perna were part of planning assumptions that had been built into Tiberius, a data system developed with Palantir, the Denver-based software company. The assumptions shared with states using that system were not updated, according to a federal health official who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share internal discussions. States have reported varying levels of comfort with the brand-new data system.Meanwhile, a colleague mentioned his wife was administering the vaccine at Stanford and encountered a protest . . . by Stanford doctors. It seems the university put "frontline workers at back of line".
posted by mark k at 9:08 PM on December 19, 2020
@RexChapman: "New Zealand has announced it will provide the new Covid vaccine to any New Zealander who wants it — free of charge. Then they went further. They're also making the vaccine available to all of their Pacific island neighbors. Humanity. Leadership."
@interfluidity: "how much of New Zealand's awesomeness is due to the person of Jacinda Ardern and how much to good institutions that would continue through a change of leadership?"
@XihongLin: "An informative side-by-side comparison of the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines."
@apbohn: "The real story, in my opinion, is here: 10-12 days after first dose, people just *stop* getting infected with COVID."
@EricTopol: "The most important clinical trials in our lifetime, over 74,000 participants, conducted at unprecedented velocity, yielding extraordinarily high efficacy, and replicated. These graphs are classics in the making, folks."
@xkcd: "Always try to get data that's good enough that you don't need to do statistics on it."
@MaxCRoser: "The history of three infectious diseases, smallpox, polio, and measles, – before and after a vaccine was available."
posted by kliuless at 1:23 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
@interfluidity: "how much of New Zealand's awesomeness is due to the person of Jacinda Ardern and how much to good institutions that would continue through a change of leadership?"
@XihongLin: "An informative side-by-side comparison of the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines."
@apbohn: "The real story, in my opinion, is here: 10-12 days after first dose, people just *stop* getting infected with COVID."
@EricTopol: "The most important clinical trials in our lifetime, over 74,000 participants, conducted at unprecedented velocity, yielding extraordinarily high efficacy, and replicated. These graphs are classics in the making, folks."
@xkcd: "Always try to get data that's good enough that you don't need to do statistics on it."
@MaxCRoser: "The history of three infectious diseases, smallpox, polio, and measles, – before and after a vaccine was available."
posted by kliuless at 1:23 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
Stanford apologizes after leaving housestaff out of the vaccine allocation plan:
One neurology resident, who was involved in planning Friday's protest, said that a flawed algorithm is no excuse. She requested anonymity for fear of affecting her future job search.
(Meanwhile, I want to know her name so that we can hire her at my institution once she's done with training.)
MD and VA donate vaccine to DC to make up for federal under-allocation; the MD-DC-VA region (do not call it the DMV, I will cut you) have worked together since the early days of the pandemic to develop a regionally coordinated response.
Zombie Mike Pence gets vaccine on live TV while National Treasure Dr. Anthony Fauci still waiting for his. (Although tbf, the people who care about Fauci are likely to get vaccinated anyway; the Trumppence crowd more likely to be skeptics and might -- might -- be persuadable.)
Though Fauci did ensure that Santa got vaccinated -- elderly, obese, fond of milk-and-cookies, visits lots of households in a single night, Mr. Claus is at high risk of both covid-related complications and being a super-spreader, and his massive beard means a poor seal on an N95. Elves were not included in clinical trials or distribution plan, however. No word on Mrs. C.
I just signed up for my first round of the Pfizer shot -- I wasn't expecting until after the New Year, as I'm relatively young and healthy. I don't know whether this represents slow uptake among the people ahead of me in line, or if we got more doses than originally anticipated, or if the distribution algorithm is flawed. But I signed up anyway -- to quote the Hamilton lyric that has been blowing up on my social media the last few days, I'm not throwing away my shot.
posted by basalganglia at 4:03 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
One neurology resident, who was involved in planning Friday's protest, said that a flawed algorithm is no excuse. She requested anonymity for fear of affecting her future job search.
(Meanwhile, I want to know her name so that we can hire her at my institution once she's done with training.)
MD and VA donate vaccine to DC to make up for federal under-allocation; the MD-DC-VA region (do not call it the DMV, I will cut you) have worked together since the early days of the pandemic to develop a regionally coordinated response.
Zombie Mike Pence gets vaccine on live TV while National Treasure Dr. Anthony Fauci still waiting for his. (Although tbf, the people who care about Fauci are likely to get vaccinated anyway; the Trumppence crowd more likely to be skeptics and might -- might -- be persuadable.)
Though Fauci did ensure that Santa got vaccinated -- elderly, obese, fond of milk-and-cookies, visits lots of households in a single night, Mr. Claus is at high risk of both covid-related complications and being a super-spreader, and his massive beard means a poor seal on an N95. Elves were not included in clinical trials or distribution plan, however. No word on Mrs. C.
I just signed up for my first round of the Pfizer shot -- I wasn't expecting until after the New Year, as I'm relatively young and healthy. I don't know whether this represents slow uptake among the people ahead of me in line, or if we got more doses than originally anticipated, or if the distribution algorithm is flawed. But I signed up anyway -- to quote the Hamilton lyric that has been blowing up on my social media the last few days, I'm not throwing away my shot.
posted by basalganglia at 4:03 AM on December 20, 2020 [5 favorites]
The Stanford vaccine allocation algorithm:
posted by benzenedream at 8:56 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
staff = sorted(staff, key=lambda x: x.salary * x.org_hierarchy_level, reverse=True)posted by benzenedream at 8:56 AM on December 20, 2020 [1 favorite]
Covid vaccine: UK doctors criticise rescheduling of second doses
The only sensible theory as to why that might be that I can come up with is that they largely look on the pandemic in terms of equity release.
(People die. Their relatives inherit their stuff. They spend money. PROFIT!)
posted by Grangousier at 5:00 AM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
The move applies to people scheduled to have their second dose of the Pfizer jab after 4 January, as well as those yet to receive either jab. The government said it hoped the approach would mean as many people as possible soon have some protection against the disease.The fashion at the moment seems to be to respond to everything with a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, and these are certainly dramatic times. But I don't want to appear to be striking dramatic postures when I say that I've come to the conclusion that while this government may just be incompetent, to me it increasingly looks like they're managing every stage of this crisis to kill as many people as possible.
However, the announcement caused controversy, with Pfizer and BioNTech warning that two doses of their vaccine were required for maximum protection against Covid and that they did not have evidence that the first dose alone offered protection after three weeks.
The only sensible theory as to why that might be that I can come up with is that they largely look on the pandemic in terms of equity release.
(People die. Their relatives inherit their stuff. They spend money. PROFIT!)
posted by Grangousier at 5:00 AM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
(People die. Their relatives inherit their stuff. They spend money. PROFIT!)
I remember an episode of Connections, back in the 1970s, where they made this exact connection. Black Death --> more wealth --> underpants --> industrial revolution / European dominance.
Like, it might be true in the abstract, but if that is the thinking behind the current leadership in the Anglosphere that is pretty disheartening.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:05 AM on December 31, 2020
I remember an episode of Connections, back in the 1970s, where they made this exact connection. Black Death --> more wealth --> underpants --> industrial revolution / European dominance.
Like, it might be true in the abstract, but if that is the thinking behind the current leadership in the Anglosphere that is pretty disheartening.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:05 AM on December 31, 2020
It's me being cynical, it's just that the hypothesis that they're doing it deliberately to kill people seems to be as supportable by the evidence as that they're just incompetent.
posted by Grangousier at 8:12 AM on December 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 8:12 AM on December 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
Trumpites and Boris were actually trying to maximize coronavirus via their demented herd immunity plans. A badly implemented herd immunity plan is indistinguishable from being on Team Coronavirus.
posted by benzenedream at 9:55 AM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by benzenedream at 9:55 AM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
In Wisconsin, a hospital employee intentionally removed fifty-seven Moderna COVID-19 vaccine vials from the fridge last weekend, ruining more than 500 doses; the FBI is investigating (USA Today, Dec. 31, 2020).
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:23 PM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:23 PM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
Initially, Aurora was "led to believe" the removal was an error. But Wednesday, the employee "acknowledged that they intentionally removed the vaccine from refrigeration," according to a statement from the health care provider.
WTF? Were they were saving people from 5G Bill Gates chipping? Even antivaxxers don't usually destroy vaccines intended for other people.
posted by benzenedream at 1:32 PM on December 31, 2020
WTF? Were they were saving people from 5G Bill Gates chipping? Even antivaxxers don't usually destroy vaccines intended for other people.
posted by benzenedream at 1:32 PM on December 31, 2020
Maybe the employee's own soon-to-be-dispensed dose was in that batch? I was relieved they didn't sabotage the pharmacy fridge itself. NBC has a worse detail its update:
The Moderna vaccine has a 12-hour window once it has been thawed. Most doses of the vaccine that had been left out of the pharmacy refrigerator had to be discarded, although hospital officials later believed they could salvage some. After the hospital administered more than 50 doses of the vaccines that had been thawed, it learned the shots had actually been thawed twice, rendering them ineffective, a hospital official said Thursday at a press conference. The hospital said all those who received an ineffective vaccine have been notified and that those individuals are not at risk.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:54 PM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
The Moderna vaccine has a 12-hour window once it has been thawed. Most doses of the vaccine that had been left out of the pharmacy refrigerator had to be discarded, although hospital officials later believed they could salvage some. After the hospital administered more than 50 doses of the vaccines that had been thawed, it learned the shots had actually been thawed twice, rendering them ineffective, a hospital official said Thursday at a press conference. The hospital said all those who received an ineffective vaccine have been notified and that those individuals are not at risk.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:54 PM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
The US is also considering delaying second doses of vaccines, so that more people will receive the first shot sooner. Bob Wachter (UCSF Dept. of Medicine) explains why on Twitter:
- Single shot seems to be about 80% protective after a monthposted by mbrubeck at 7:18 PM on December 31, 2020
- 2nd shot adds some efficacy (up to 95% protective), and maybe (tho not yet proven) some durability.
[...]
Far better to have 100M people who are 80% protected than 50M people who are 95% protected, particularly as we are facing a foe that is getting smarter and nastier.
What's the impact of widespread partial protection on the evolution of a virus that is less impacted by the vaccine? I feel it gives the virus more chances to break out, but a not sure.
posted by mark k at 8:55 PM on December 31, 2020
posted by mark k at 8:55 PM on December 31, 2020
It does. Ideal would be vaccinating everyone at the same time so that vaccinated people are exposed to as little virus as possible. If only 50% are vaccinated then the virus will start selecting to get around vaccine immunity. Right now there is almost no selection for this since every host the virus encounters is susceptible. You want to minimize the number of virions exposed to minimize the number of evolutionary lottery tickets that the virus can buy.
Of course right now it's unclear whether vaccination will actually stop virus production in vaccinated people. It's assumed vaccinated people will be less infectious than no vaccinated covid cases but that remains to be seen. If virus keeps reproducing in vaccinated people without illness we'll have to update the vaccine periodically as it tries to escape.
posted by benzenedream at 11:25 PM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
Of course right now it's unclear whether vaccination will actually stop virus production in vaccinated people. It's assumed vaccinated people will be less infectious than no vaccinated covid cases but that remains to be seen. If virus keeps reproducing in vaccinated people without illness we'll have to update the vaccine periodically as it tries to escape.
posted by benzenedream at 11:25 PM on December 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
Wisconsin update: Pharmacist sabotaged vaccines because he thought they were 'unsafe,' police say. (ABC News, January 4, 2021). The suspect gave a "full confession," the district attorney said at a hearing. Stephen Brandenburg, 46, was licensed in 1996 - he's been a pharmacist for half his life.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:23 PM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:23 PM on January 4, 2021 [2 favorites]
Mexico approved the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine for emergency use. (NYT) It is the fourth country to approve the vaccine.
California grants dentists emergency waiver to administer COVID-19 vaccines; COVID-19 surge from holiday gatherings in LA County has begun, officials say (ABC, Jan. 4, 2021) The County of Los Angeles says it has 400,000 new cases of COVID in just the last month; one person dies from COVID every 15 minutes; state reports more more cases of the new UK variant: 6 total cases so far: 4 in San Diego, 2 in San Bernardino. The UK variant is in New York; the case was detected in a symptomatic man in his 60s, who works at a jewelry store, N. Fox Jewelers, in Saratoga Springs.
The Los Angeles County Emergency Medical Services Agency has told ambulance crews not to transport coronavirus patients who are unlikely to survive – in order to conserve oxygen supplies and ICU beds (Guardian, CNN, Jan. 4, 2021).
Why new coronavirus variants 'suddenly arose' in the U.K. and South Africa (National Geographic, Dec. 23, 2020) Some researchers suspect chronic cases allow the virus to replicate over long periods of time and that certain new therapies may encourage it to mutate.[...] While there is no direct evidence that this collection of mutations influences the severity of disease, modeling and prior laboratory work hints at the possibility that it could make the virus more contagious. A greater abundance of cases could mean more hospitalizations and deaths.
South African coronavirus variant: What we know so far (Politico.eu, Jan. 4, 2021) Much is unknown about the new variant, but researchers are probing whether it will affect vaccines. Britain and Denmark have opted to delay the second dose of their COVID-19 vaccines, in order to vaccinate more people, faster. Other countries are considering this strategy.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:36 AM on January 5, 2021
California grants dentists emergency waiver to administer COVID-19 vaccines; COVID-19 surge from holiday gatherings in LA County has begun, officials say (ABC, Jan. 4, 2021) The County of Los Angeles says it has 400,000 new cases of COVID in just the last month; one person dies from COVID every 15 minutes; state reports more more cases of the new UK variant: 6 total cases so far: 4 in San Diego, 2 in San Bernardino. The UK variant is in New York; the case was detected in a symptomatic man in his 60s, who works at a jewelry store, N. Fox Jewelers, in Saratoga Springs.
The Los Angeles County Emergency Medical Services Agency has told ambulance crews not to transport coronavirus patients who are unlikely to survive – in order to conserve oxygen supplies and ICU beds (Guardian, CNN, Jan. 4, 2021).
Why new coronavirus variants 'suddenly arose' in the U.K. and South Africa (National Geographic, Dec. 23, 2020) Some researchers suspect chronic cases allow the virus to replicate over long periods of time and that certain new therapies may encourage it to mutate.[...] While there is no direct evidence that this collection of mutations influences the severity of disease, modeling and prior laboratory work hints at the possibility that it could make the virus more contagious. A greater abundance of cases could mean more hospitalizations and deaths.
South African coronavirus variant: What we know so far (Politico.eu, Jan. 4, 2021) Much is unknown about the new variant, but researchers are probing whether it will affect vaccines. Britain and Denmark have opted to delay the second dose of their COVID-19 vaccines, in order to vaccinate more people, faster. Other countries are considering this strategy.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:36 AM on January 5, 2021
The Los Angeles County Emergency Medical Services Agency has told ambulance crews not to transport coronavirus patients who are unlikely to survive
The Guardian coverage is incorrect. The instruction is that county EMS should no longer transport patients whose hearts have stopped despite efforts of resuscitation for at least 20 minutes, and that their bodies should not be transported to the hospital. This is all patients (blunt or penetrating trauma and non-trauma cardiac arrest are specifically mentioned), not specifically coronavirus patients.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:43 AM on January 5, 2021
The Guardian coverage is incorrect. The instruction is that county EMS should no longer transport patients whose hearts have stopped despite efforts of resuscitation for at least 20 minutes, and that their bodies should not be transported to the hospital. This is all patients (blunt or penetrating trauma and non-trauma cardiac arrest are specifically mentioned), not specifically coronavirus patients.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:43 AM on January 5, 2021
South African SARS-CoV-2 Variant Alarms Scientists (TheScientist, Jan. 5, 2021) An additional mutation in the spike protein of the coronavirus may help it elude antibody recognition, and scientists are investigating if current vaccines will protect against it.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:07 AM on January 5, 2021
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:07 AM on January 5, 2021
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posted by SansPoint at 8:21 AM on December 9, 2020 [2 favorites]