Dole-Bayh turns 40
December 12, 2020 12:30 PM Subscribe
Birch Bayh. The last liberal Indiana ever sent to the Senate.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:45 PM on December 12, 2020
posted by Thorzdad at 12:45 PM on December 12, 2020
I don't know. Something feels off about this, about allowing people sole access to research that the government funded. I look forward to someone more knowledgeable about this than me dissecting this, however. The fact the linked article's sole link is to an organization that exists to popularize the act, an act that was already passed 40 years ago, strikes me as iffish.
posted by JHarris at 1:12 PM on December 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 1:12 PM on December 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
I guess you get to be one of today's [un]lucky 10,000 in learning about it.
I was vacillating between doing something long and drawn out but decided short and sweet and relatively on-time for the anniversary was better. Even so, it's not news to all of MeFi, for instance:
previously, previously, previously
posted by one weird trick at 1:26 PM on December 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
I was vacillating between doing something long and drawn out but decided short and sweet and relatively on-time for the anniversary was better. Even so, it's not news to all of MeFi, for instance:
previously, previously, previously
posted by one weird trick at 1:26 PM on December 12, 2020 [1 favorite]
Is this a joke? Who the hell calls it Dole-Bayh?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:24 PM on December 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 2:24 PM on December 12, 2020 [3 favorites]
turns 40
You won't believe the economic and intellectual property norms this one millennial killed.
posted by deludingmyself at 3:04 PM on December 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
You won't believe the economic and intellectual property norms this one millennial killed.
posted by deludingmyself at 3:04 PM on December 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
Ugh. What a piece of anti-progressive industry propaganda.
What would you expect from a "bi-partisan" deal between the most right-wing Democrat in the senate and the most right-wing Republican in the senate.
If you want to know why you have to pay $10,000 for a drug treatment that costs $100, you can thank Bayh-Dole. If you want to know why there has been increasing inequality, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, you can thank Bayh-Dole.
posted by JackFlash at 6:43 PM on December 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
What would you expect from a "bi-partisan" deal between the most right-wing Democrat in the senate and the most right-wing Republican in the senate.
If you want to know why you have to pay $10,000 for a drug treatment that costs $100, you can thank Bayh-Dole. If you want to know why there has been increasing inequality, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, you can thank Bayh-Dole.
posted by JackFlash at 6:43 PM on December 12, 2020 [6 favorites]
FWIW, VoteView scores Birch Bayh as "more liberal than 82% of Democrats in the 96th Senate," which I believe is consistent with his reputation.
(About his son, the less said the better.)
(That may also be true for this law, which at best seems like one for the "seemed like a good idea at the time" pile... but I would also be interested in hearing more from those with more knowledge of its impact.)
posted by Not A Thing at 8:00 PM on December 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
(About his son, the less said the better.)
(That may also be true for this law, which at best seems like one for the "seemed like a good idea at the time" pile... but I would also be interested in hearing more from those with more knowledge of its impact.)
posted by Not A Thing at 8:00 PM on December 12, 2020 [2 favorites]
Do people think safe and effective medicines emerge directly from federal research? If so, I have news for you: they don't.
The companies that have the ability to perform drug development wouldn't do it if their investments in safety testing and the like were for naught because a competitor could make a copy of the drug without having done that work. Hence the public policy trade of a limited period of patent exclusivity, and why we have so many effective generic drugs available. Almost all the medicines that almost everyone takes have fairly cheap generic versions available because any patents on them have expired.
I haven't met anyone in this field (I now work in a federal lab and in the past I had a generic pharma manufacturer being sued for patent infringement a a client) who doesn't think this law was a good thing. There are dozens of better targets for ire about drug pricing, for example how much Pfizer spends on marketing vs. R&D.
posted by exogenous at 9:47 AM on December 13, 2020
The companies that have the ability to perform drug development wouldn't do it if their investments in safety testing and the like were for naught because a competitor could make a copy of the drug without having done that work. Hence the public policy trade of a limited period of patent exclusivity, and why we have so many effective generic drugs available. Almost all the medicines that almost everyone takes have fairly cheap generic versions available because any patents on them have expired.
I haven't met anyone in this field (I now work in a federal lab and in the past I had a generic pharma manufacturer being sued for patent infringement a a client) who doesn't think this law was a good thing. There are dozens of better targets for ire about drug pricing, for example how much Pfizer spends on marketing vs. R&D.
posted by exogenous at 9:47 AM on December 13, 2020
I haven't met anyone in this field who doesn't think this law was a good thing.
Perhaps you have a small bubble of acquaintances who benefit financially from Bayh-Dole? There are lots of people -- economists, health researchers, social scientists -- who question the claimed benefits of Bayh-Dole. Perhaps you simply have not met or heard of them.
posted by JackFlash at 9:57 AM on December 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Perhaps you have a small bubble of acquaintances who benefit financially from Bayh-Dole? There are lots of people -- economists, health researchers, social scientists -- who question the claimed benefits of Bayh-Dole. Perhaps you simply have not met or heard of them.
posted by JackFlash at 9:57 AM on December 13, 2020 [1 favorite]
Bayh Dole Act is directly responsible for my Heinz Foundation Fellowship to train in tech transfer at the University of Pittsburgh almost 20 years ago. Oof, its now double that age.
posted by infini at 12:06 PM on December 13, 2020
posted by infini at 12:06 PM on December 13, 2020
> Who the hell calls it Dole-Bayh?
Yeah, sorry. I usually don't call it anything, I just remember that it's a thing, and who the nominal sponsors were: The WWII veteran Kansas Senator and the more revered dad of the Indiana politician more contemporary to my times.
Plus, maybe "Bayh-Dole" just sounds too much like a Minion fire alarm to me?
> who question the claimed benefits
Yeah, world being what it is, one tends to find more on the "pro" front via quick and naive searches. I'd welcome seeing more detailed critiques.
Supposed benefits for drug development aside, my gut tells me this has driven the perception that tech transfer is an ATM from which universities can fund their research, graduate education, healthcare, and other outreach missions--all the magical things they're looked to provide beyond undergraduate education--making it easier to cut government funding.
Instead, says my gut, continuing its harangue, Bayh-Dole-style tech transfer drives administrative costs which, combined with decreased government support, help push up tuition. But that's an argument with a lot of moving parts that I didn't have the inclination to run down in the short time since I noticed on Wikipedia that the anniversary was coming up.
But if folks have some favorite authors or documents to this point I'm keen.
posted by one weird trick at 6:32 AM on December 14, 2020
Yeah, sorry. I usually don't call it anything, I just remember that it's a thing, and who the nominal sponsors were: The WWII veteran Kansas Senator and the more revered dad of the Indiana politician more contemporary to my times.
Plus, maybe "Bayh-Dole" just sounds too much like a Minion fire alarm to me?
> who question the claimed benefits
Yeah, world being what it is, one tends to find more on the "pro" front via quick and naive searches. I'd welcome seeing more detailed critiques.
Supposed benefits for drug development aside, my gut tells me this has driven the perception that tech transfer is an ATM from which universities can fund their research, graduate education, healthcare, and other outreach missions--all the magical things they're looked to provide beyond undergraduate education--making it easier to cut government funding.
Instead, says my gut, continuing its harangue, Bayh-Dole-style tech transfer drives administrative costs which, combined with decreased government support, help push up tuition. But that's an argument with a lot of moving parts that I didn't have the inclination to run down in the short time since I noticed on Wikipedia that the anniversary was coming up.
But if folks have some favorite authors or documents to this point I'm keen.
posted by one weird trick at 6:32 AM on December 14, 2020
Perhaps you have a small bubble of acquaintances who benefit financially from Bayh-Dole?
I'll try and not take this as a personal insult.
There are lots of people -- economists, health researchers, social scientists -- who question the claimed benefits of Bayh-Dole. Perhaps you simply have not met or heard of them.
Have you got any links or cites? I did a little internet searching and found a couple of articles (this one is, on my real-world experience, based on false premises) and the "Issues and Concerns" section here is pretty mild IMO.
Honestly I would love to see a cogent argument that the law is a poor one, but perhaps none exist.
posted by exogenous at 9:34 AM on December 14, 2020
I'll try and not take this as a personal insult.
There are lots of people -- economists, health researchers, social scientists -- who question the claimed benefits of Bayh-Dole. Perhaps you simply have not met or heard of them.
Have you got any links or cites? I did a little internet searching and found a couple of articles (this one is, on my real-world experience, based on false premises) and the "Issues and Concerns" section here is pretty mild IMO.
Honestly I would love to see a cogent argument that the law is a poor one, but perhaps none exist.
posted by exogenous at 9:34 AM on December 14, 2020
It is quite fitting that this post starts and ends with articles by Joe Allen, a corporate lobbyist and industry consultant who has gotten quite wealthy assisting corporations to suck every possible dollar out of pockets of the public using government enforced monopolies.
posted by JackFlash at 10:05 AM on December 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by JackFlash at 10:05 AM on December 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Supposed benefits for drug development aside, my gut tells me this has driven the perception that tech transfer is an ATM from which universities can fund their research, graduate education, healthcare, and other outreach missions--all the magical things they're looked to provide beyond undergraduate education--making it easier to cut government funding.
Instead, says my gut, continuing its harangue, Bayh-Dole-style tech transfer drives administrative costs which, combined with decreased government support, help push up tuition. But that's an argument with a lot of moving parts that I didn't have the inclination to run down in the short time since I noticed on Wikipedia that the anniversary was coming up.
It's unusual for a university to have a blockbuster patent portfolio that can fund other operations in a significant way. I would guess there are actually a lot of cases in which the tech transfer office doesn't even pay for itself; it certainly isn't an ATM in the vast majority of cases.
But there are benefits that aren't captured by the bottom-line balance. Bayh-Dole encourages interactions between academic researchers and industry. This can be really good for students who get a chance to network, get a taste of what industry research looks like, and find solid jobs upon graduating (n.b. most engineering PhD graduates are not looking for academic positions). It also drives academic start-ups, which are of pedagogical value for students and PIs alike.
There's also the simple fact that most inventions qua inventions aren't worth much. Any idiot can have an idea, and it doesn't take much more brain power to patent it. Execution is the hard part, and Bayh-Dole provides a route to get ideas from academic labs that would never commercialize them into the hands of an industrial partner that can actually execute. Does this represent a transfer of government-funded research effort to the private sector? I think most of the time, licensees wind up paying "fair market" licensing fees. If these fees aren't enough to support the tech-transfer apparatus of the university, it's because, again, ideas aren't worth much.
posted by mr_roboto at 5:23 PM on December 14, 2020
Instead, says my gut, continuing its harangue, Bayh-Dole-style tech transfer drives administrative costs which, combined with decreased government support, help push up tuition. But that's an argument with a lot of moving parts that I didn't have the inclination to run down in the short time since I noticed on Wikipedia that the anniversary was coming up.
It's unusual for a university to have a blockbuster patent portfolio that can fund other operations in a significant way. I would guess there are actually a lot of cases in which the tech transfer office doesn't even pay for itself; it certainly isn't an ATM in the vast majority of cases.
But there are benefits that aren't captured by the bottom-line balance. Bayh-Dole encourages interactions between academic researchers and industry. This can be really good for students who get a chance to network, get a taste of what industry research looks like, and find solid jobs upon graduating (n.b. most engineering PhD graduates are not looking for academic positions). It also drives academic start-ups, which are of pedagogical value for students and PIs alike.
There's also the simple fact that most inventions qua inventions aren't worth much. Any idiot can have an idea, and it doesn't take much more brain power to patent it. Execution is the hard part, and Bayh-Dole provides a route to get ideas from academic labs that would never commercialize them into the hands of an industrial partner that can actually execute. Does this represent a transfer of government-funded research effort to the private sector? I think most of the time, licensees wind up paying "fair market" licensing fees. If these fees aren't enough to support the tech-transfer apparatus of the university, it's because, again, ideas aren't worth much.
posted by mr_roboto at 5:23 PM on December 14, 2020
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posted by one weird trick at 12:30 PM on December 12, 2020