They Would Prefer Not To
March 11, 2021 9:57 AM Subscribe
Nobody Knows What To Do About NEETs
NEET stands for “Not in Employment, Education or Training.” These are individuals in their mid-20s or older, adrift in life, often living at home with parents. Some are struggling to integrate into society because of past trauma, mental illness or disability; others sound more like Herman Melville’s fictional scrivener, Bartleby, who flatly refuses to do anything on the grounds that he “would prefer not to.”
As someone who works in urban policy, important to note right from the start that the premise of this article is primarily based on the way the the term is used on a subreddit, not the way it used by the policy community. Although the do muddy the waters somewhat by briefly mentioning how it’s used in policy at the start and end.
I would be really surprised if most of the people we interviewed for our latest research considered themselves this way. Some of them were women, for a start. On the other hand we didn’t ask them if they use Reddit so maybe I’m just totally off base?
posted by Concordia at 10:11 AM on March 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
I would be really surprised if most of the people we interviewed for our latest research considered themselves this way. Some of them were women, for a start. On the other hand we didn’t ask them if they use Reddit so maybe I’m just totally off base?
posted by Concordia at 10:11 AM on March 11, 2021 [25 favorites]
As someone who was probably a bad decision or two away from becoming a NEET?
It's basically (mostly white) men who were told from birth they have a gender and/or racial hegemony along with a legacy and then realizing that there's no actual gender or racial solidarity but still have the expectations on their shoulders. Toxic masculinity makes you feel both entitled and powerless at the same time and it's what drives their sense of resentment. Some people get lucky, some pick themselves up and make the best of it, others just shut down. They're unable to cope with the societal pressure from all sides and the lack of support. This is on top of the societal wide expectations for men to not ask for help, along with large swaths of society showing open contempt for those that do. To put yourself in such a position of vulnerability as a man requires an extreme amount of courage that not every person will possess .
So what to do about NEETs? We do our best to make sure society is a compassionate place where everyone can find whatever they want out of life and help them achieve it without expectations or judgement just like every other person should be able to.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:12 AM on March 11, 2021 [32 favorites]
It's basically (mostly white) men who were told from birth they have a gender and/or racial hegemony along with a legacy and then realizing that there's no actual gender or racial solidarity but still have the expectations on their shoulders. Toxic masculinity makes you feel both entitled and powerless at the same time and it's what drives their sense of resentment. Some people get lucky, some pick themselves up and make the best of it, others just shut down. They're unable to cope with the societal pressure from all sides and the lack of support. This is on top of the societal wide expectations for men to not ask for help, along with large swaths of society showing open contempt for those that do. To put yourself in such a position of vulnerability as a man requires an extreme amount of courage that not every person will possess .
So what to do about NEETs? We do our best to make sure society is a compassionate place where everyone can find whatever they want out of life and help them achieve it without expectations or judgement just like every other person should be able to.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:12 AM on March 11, 2021 [32 favorites]
American capitalist never made that bargain; it was Roosevelt's enormous stimulus/regulatory package a.k.a. The New Deal, plus post wars bounty, globalisation, exploitation of new resources, and extremely cheap energy -- all these things made the second half of the 20th century a freaking miracle for the middle class. Capitalism happily almost destroyed our society a hundred years ago and the only reason it's taken this long to do it again is because it's taken about this long to suck all the life blood out of the middle class again (the poor have always had the shit end of the stick).
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:24 AM on March 11, 2021 [55 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:24 AM on March 11, 2021 [55 favorites]
I think just discussing, in general, the way that people feel disaffected and unwilling to participate in capitalism is missing a huge part of the article which is about how the reddit sub-culture of NEETs is a thinly veiled misogynist outcropping of incels. And those issues are related, but if you're responding to the post and not the article, you might not notice how much the article is about the latter and not the former.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:29 AM on March 11, 2021 [76 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 10:29 AM on March 11, 2021 [76 favorites]
I spent a couple of years living like that. I was severely depressed, which is a lot of what led to it, but also of course the way I was living made that worse. Kind of hard to get out of that cycle, in fact. If you can't drop the mentality that nothing is good enough for your unique self and the shitty jobs you can actually get aren't worth the effort, how do you even start?
posted by thelonius at 10:36 AM on March 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 10:36 AM on March 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
The distinction between "education" and "training" in the acronym, which I'd never heard before, is interesting.
posted by eotvos at 10:42 AM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by eotvos at 10:42 AM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think just discussing, in general, the way that people feel disaffected and unwilling to participate in capitalism is missing a huge part of the article which is about how the reddit sub-culture of NEETs is a thinly veiled misogynist outcropping of incels.
Yeah, like - I am /extremely/ sympathetic to the failures of capitalism and people's desire not to participate in it, but at least what was shown from the reddit NEET forum seems to showcase people who don't want to do anything for anyone else. They're not making memes about how they're cooking delicious food for the people in their house, or providing childcare, or starting a food pantry so that other people don't have to be dependent on capitalism to survive. I know a lot of people who have opted out of the capitalist system and they work so hard all the fucking time.
There's a strong difference between not wanting to work for exploitative wages and not wanting to work to benefit others. I don't see these guys dumpster diving or trying out mutual aid to get their needs met. And I think that's the other thing that's pointed out in the article - these are mostly men who rely on middle to upper class parents. It's not opting out of capitalism if you just have your parents exist in capitalism instead of you and reap its meager benefits.
posted by corb at 10:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [150 favorites]
Yeah, like - I am /extremely/ sympathetic to the failures of capitalism and people's desire not to participate in it, but at least what was shown from the reddit NEET forum seems to showcase people who don't want to do anything for anyone else. They're not making memes about how they're cooking delicious food for the people in their house, or providing childcare, or starting a food pantry so that other people don't have to be dependent on capitalism to survive. I know a lot of people who have opted out of the capitalist system and they work so hard all the fucking time.
There's a strong difference between not wanting to work for exploitative wages and not wanting to work to benefit others. I don't see these guys dumpster diving or trying out mutual aid to get their needs met. And I think that's the other thing that's pointed out in the article - these are mostly men who rely on middle to upper class parents. It's not opting out of capitalism if you just have your parents exist in capitalism instead of you and reap its meager benefits.
posted by corb at 10:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [150 favorites]
I started reading the article. I made it to the reddit link and got sidetracked by that.
I am agog.
The absolute scorn directed at people with jobs while, in the next breath, talking about the foods they cook and their computers is just amazing.
If I don't work, my family doesn't have a home or food.
Yet, somehow I am the one trapped in a rat-race and focused on possessions and things.
Capitalism is a fuck, yes. But just because you aren't working doesn't mean you are somehow living outside the system.
posted by Seamus at 10:50 AM on March 11, 2021 [30 favorites]
I am agog.
The absolute scorn directed at people with jobs while, in the next breath, talking about the foods they cook and their computers is just amazing.
If I don't work, my family doesn't have a home or food.
Yet, somehow I am the one trapped in a rat-race and focused on possessions and things.
Capitalism is a fuck, yes. But just because you aren't working doesn't mean you are somehow living outside the system.
posted by Seamus at 10:50 AM on March 11, 2021 [30 favorites]
The thing I always wonder about the NEET types is, these people only survive by the kindness of their relatives continuing to let them live that lifestyle. What happens if say, the relatives actually did something and forced them out of the house? Would these people deign to try to get a crap job then, or what would they do?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:54 AM on March 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:54 AM on March 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
It's basically (mostly white) men
Whereas in reality it's disproportionately black men who are not working. "The data indicate extremely high rates of prime age [Ages 25-54] Black men without work – over a third are not working at the time of the survey and over a quarter over the entire past year."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:55 AM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Whereas in reality it's disproportionately black men who are not working. "The data indicate extremely high rates of prime age [Ages 25-54] Black men without work – over a third are not working at the time of the survey and over a quarter over the entire past year."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:55 AM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Yeah I don't think I sympathize with people who spend all their time hating on the very "wage slaves" whom they're mooching off of.
posted by MiraK at 10:57 AM on March 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 10:57 AM on March 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
You mean "wagecucks". Because . . . of course . . .
Aaaaargh. I am stepping away from the article and the reddit until I can be a little more calm about it.
posted by Seamus at 11:00 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Aaaaargh. I am stepping away from the article and the reddit until I can be a little more calm about it.
posted by Seamus at 11:00 AM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I want to be compassionate, but the virulent misogyny makes that beyond difficult. I can be compassionate about burnout, about mental health struggles... but dropping out from productive labor because they "were told from birth they have a gender and/or racial hegemony" and now they're disappointed? No! I refuse!
The fact that existing as a woman in a NEET forum is explicitly considered "riling up the men" is just beyond comprehension. Women are people too - how's that for compassion!
posted by Behemoth, in no. 302-bis, with the Browning at 11:23 AM on March 11, 2021 [40 favorites]
The fact that existing as a woman in a NEET forum is explicitly considered "riling up the men" is just beyond comprehension. Women are people too - how's that for compassion!
posted by Behemoth, in no. 302-bis, with the Browning at 11:23 AM on March 11, 2021 [40 favorites]
I reject the assignment of blame to the individuals where the problem is clearly systemic. That is not to say that all individuals handle the situation well, but the problem is mostly with the situation itself.
I am aware of some pertinent cases. Case 1 involves identical twin women now in their early 30s. Both quit high school to party with men who had plenty of money. Twin 1 had a child at 17 and gave it up for open adoption, worked steadily, and ultimately went into the trades, where she earns a good living. Twin 2 married young, had two kids, stayed home. Marriage shaky. Heavy drinking on her part. Marriage busts up and husband isolates woman from children due to her continued excess drinking. Woman on welfare. Can’t work because of drinking. Case 2 involves a man now in mid 30s. Professional university degree provides assured employment, but the individual finds corporate life stifling, leading to chronic psychic distress. Case 3 involves a man in his 20s. Never held a job due to unique psychological profile, now finding success in music production.
All these cases are in the same family, demonstrating that there is a very complex situation to which individuals are responding in whatever way they can. The punishment for a misstep, a deficiency or bad luck is crushing.
posted by No Robots at 11:27 AM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
I am aware of some pertinent cases. Case 1 involves identical twin women now in their early 30s. Both quit high school to party with men who had plenty of money. Twin 1 had a child at 17 and gave it up for open adoption, worked steadily, and ultimately went into the trades, where she earns a good living. Twin 2 married young, had two kids, stayed home. Marriage shaky. Heavy drinking on her part. Marriage busts up and husband isolates woman from children due to her continued excess drinking. Woman on welfare. Can’t work because of drinking. Case 2 involves a man now in mid 30s. Professional university degree provides assured employment, but the individual finds corporate life stifling, leading to chronic psychic distress. Case 3 involves a man in his 20s. Never held a job due to unique psychological profile, now finding success in music production.
All these cases are in the same family, demonstrating that there is a very complex situation to which individuals are responding in whatever way they can. The punishment for a misstep, a deficiency or bad luck is crushing.
posted by No Robots at 11:27 AM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Ultimately I think there are two things here: the condition itself, an adult with nothing productive to do, and one particular (self-exculpating, worrisome) subcultural story about them. I think what is most worrisome to me is whether, if the condition becomes more common, the story will gain more believers. *Is* the condition becoming more common? How would we know?
My own parents were conservative enough that when I see stories like this, of people indefinitely living off their folks, there is a loud voice in my head saying “well for fuck’s sake.” As a parent, though, I’ve had enough tough conversations with teachers that I can already see, if Little e has problems launching, it’s going to be a challenge for me to just sit on my hands and wait for her to get hold of herself.
posted by eirias at 11:28 AM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
My own parents were conservative enough that when I see stories like this, of people indefinitely living off their folks, there is a loud voice in my head saying “well for fuck’s sake.” As a parent, though, I’ve had enough tough conversations with teachers that I can already see, if Little e has problems launching, it’s going to be a challenge for me to just sit on my hands and wait for her to get hold of herself.
posted by eirias at 11:28 AM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
I spent a couple of years living like that.
I guess I should clarify that I meant I wasn't working and was taking classes sporadically, not that I was calling people "wagecucks" and the like.
posted by thelonius at 11:29 AM on March 11, 2021 [30 favorites]
I guess I should clarify that I meant I wasn't working and was taking classes sporadically, not that I was calling people "wagecucks" and the like.
posted by thelonius at 11:29 AM on March 11, 2021 [30 favorites]
Whereas in reality it's disproportionately black men who are not working. "The data indicate extremely high rates of prime age [Ages 25-54] Black men without work – over a third are not working at the time of the survey and over a quarter over the entire past year."
Black men unarguably have higher unemployment but I can guarantee they don't become Internet trolling NEETs at nearly the rate of shitty white manchildren living at home.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:32 AM on March 11, 2021 [59 favorites]
Black men unarguably have higher unemployment but I can guarantee they don't become Internet trolling NEETs at nearly the rate of shitty white manchildren living at home.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:32 AM on March 11, 2021 [59 favorites]
I was almost this in a big way - minus the white-boy incel flavor and the weird in-group pride. That angle is unambiguously bad. I think Your Childhood Pet Rock has it right, where we need overall more compassion and fewer expectations.
the reddit NEET forum seems to showcase people who don't want to do anything for anyone else. They're not making memes about how they're cooking delicious food for the people in their house, or providing childcare, or starting a food pantry so that other people don't have to be dependent on capitalism to survive.
OK, I want to share my experience on this. I come from a high-expectation upper-middle-class family where I couldn't do fucking anything right and couldn't show any emotion without it being a complete catastrophe and being criticized for having an emotion in the first place. So there's no feelings, you have to do everything with us, you're not being a good family member if you want to do anything for yourself, and you have to perform at a top level academically and professionally. The achievement angle requires you to work impossibly hard at being something you don't actually want to be. Remember, being anything else will result in pushback, criticism, and other unpleasantness. Also, they want to take care of you so much that they won't let you pay for things on your own, go into debt, or take a retail job. The only acceptable job is the one in the field they want for you. They want to take care of you, they can financially, and they are fucking terrible at boundaries.
Result: You're not set up for independence at all. You've been bending over backwards to try to please people/keep the peace and maybe get some praise while resenting it horribly and seeing no way out. You're chronically neglecting yourself and your own needs. Your parents pay for everything, been very generous financially, you've wanted for nothing materially, and they won't let you have your own life or money if it's not up to their standards. How in any way do you have emotional space to give to anyone else when you've been pouring from an empty cup your entire fucking life? Maybe you've tried college, ended up not liking whatever field was acceptable, and as a result didn't do well or failed out. Great, now you're a failure, like they've been telling you and you believe, and you don't see a path that would lead to happiness and stability because everyone will be mad at you and you maybe don't even see that there is another path to take. Maybe you've never had a close relationship or really been able to be yourself because masculinity and intimacy between men is so difficult. What else to do, then, than sit in your parents' basement and brood? Also, in what world do you want to cook or provide childcare for people who will criticize you for being selfish if you don't?
It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness. When you're unfulfilled, lonely, and you're getting endless obligations to be more and you're a failure if you're not...it's hard to foster gratitude, look outside yourself, and help others in need. Not saying it's good, just saying it's a thing. (And that I'm tired of being yelled at if I don't set the proper forks at the table for a dinner that I don't want to be at, didn't ask for, and can't refuse. Quarantining with my family has broken me.) And if you buy into toxic masculinity, you think that there's only one way to be and other men (read: other real people) won't respect you if you're not that. So the expectations for these people aren't just coming from one sick system, they're coming from everywhere.
100% my shit but this is just to say, I totally see where this comes from and I can't totally blame them for resentment and resignation. I really have to wonder how many of these people come from families like mine. Or if not, how much the dynamics resemble the same trap. I do feel repulsed by the incel flavor though. While I have some compassion for that, the violent and entitled rhetoric towards women is inexcusable.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 11:36 AM on March 11, 2021 [94 favorites]
the reddit NEET forum seems to showcase people who don't want to do anything for anyone else. They're not making memes about how they're cooking delicious food for the people in their house, or providing childcare, or starting a food pantry so that other people don't have to be dependent on capitalism to survive.
OK, I want to share my experience on this. I come from a high-expectation upper-middle-class family where I couldn't do fucking anything right and couldn't show any emotion without it being a complete catastrophe and being criticized for having an emotion in the first place. So there's no feelings, you have to do everything with us, you're not being a good family member if you want to do anything for yourself, and you have to perform at a top level academically and professionally. The achievement angle requires you to work impossibly hard at being something you don't actually want to be. Remember, being anything else will result in pushback, criticism, and other unpleasantness. Also, they want to take care of you so much that they won't let you pay for things on your own, go into debt, or take a retail job. The only acceptable job is the one in the field they want for you. They want to take care of you, they can financially, and they are fucking terrible at boundaries.
Result: You're not set up for independence at all. You've been bending over backwards to try to please people/keep the peace and maybe get some praise while resenting it horribly and seeing no way out. You're chronically neglecting yourself and your own needs. Your parents pay for everything, been very generous financially, you've wanted for nothing materially, and they won't let you have your own life or money if it's not up to their standards. How in any way do you have emotional space to give to anyone else when you've been pouring from an empty cup your entire fucking life? Maybe you've tried college, ended up not liking whatever field was acceptable, and as a result didn't do well or failed out. Great, now you're a failure, like they've been telling you and you believe, and you don't see a path that would lead to happiness and stability because everyone will be mad at you and you maybe don't even see that there is another path to take. Maybe you've never had a close relationship or really been able to be yourself because masculinity and intimacy between men is so difficult. What else to do, then, than sit in your parents' basement and brood? Also, in what world do you want to cook or provide childcare for people who will criticize you for being selfish if you don't?
It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness. When you're unfulfilled, lonely, and you're getting endless obligations to be more and you're a failure if you're not...it's hard to foster gratitude, look outside yourself, and help others in need. Not saying it's good, just saying it's a thing. (And that I'm tired of being yelled at if I don't set the proper forks at the table for a dinner that I don't want to be at, didn't ask for, and can't refuse. Quarantining with my family has broken me.) And if you buy into toxic masculinity, you think that there's only one way to be and other men (read: other real people) won't respect you if you're not that. So the expectations for these people aren't just coming from one sick system, they're coming from everywhere.
100% my shit but this is just to say, I totally see where this comes from and I can't totally blame them for resentment and resignation. I really have to wonder how many of these people come from families like mine. Or if not, how much the dynamics resemble the same trap. I do feel repulsed by the incel flavor though. While I have some compassion for that, the violent and entitled rhetoric towards women is inexcusable.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 11:36 AM on March 11, 2021 [94 favorites]
Would these people deign to try to get a crap job then, or what would they do?
Find a woman to mooch off of until they're old enough to scheme their way onto disability (while looking down on "welfare people").
Some people get lucky, some pick themselves up and make the best of it, others just shut down.
Some men grow the hell up and realize they don't have a beef with humanity for not making them aristocrats. Which the rest of the world is expected to do as a matter of course.
(It is weird to see "NEET" used in this way, which is not the usual jargon usage.)
posted by praemunire at 11:36 AM on March 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
Find a woman to mooch off of until they're old enough to scheme their way onto disability (while looking down on "welfare people").
Some people get lucky, some pick themselves up and make the best of it, others just shut down.
Some men grow the hell up and realize they don't have a beef with humanity for not making them aristocrats. Which the rest of the world is expected to do as a matter of course.
(It is weird to see "NEET" used in this way, which is not the usual jargon usage.)
posted by praemunire at 11:36 AM on March 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
For clarity, i did graduate from college and I do have a job, in an "acceptable" field to boot.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 11:37 AM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 11:37 AM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
reposted from somewhere:
"If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day; if you teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime,” but you have done neither. You have stood before us and eaten fish after fish, and chided us for our greed as you have done so. You have cast aside their offal and simultaneously chided us for our waste. You then told us that, coincidentally, you owned the river, and our parents should have gotten us the same if we wanted fish. You gave a man a fish to murder us if we step too close to the river, or speak too loud, or eat a fish from another river. You’ve copyrighted the fishing net. It costs us fish to leave.posted by lazaruslong at 11:38 AM on March 11, 2021 [112 favorites]
Another thing I recently saw on Twitter was to the effect that it is possible to give a man a fish and THEN teach him how to fish when he is not starving anymore.
posted by thelonius at 11:41 AM on March 11, 2021 [36 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 11:41 AM on March 11, 2021 [36 favorites]
Or a child how to use a can opener?
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:43 AM on March 11, 2021 [27 favorites]
NEETs in Japan: What Does It Mean? That's where I first heard this acronym; didn't realize its reach had expanded (into a sub-reddit, no less).
posted by Rash at 11:43 AM on March 11, 2021
posted by Rash at 11:43 AM on March 11, 2021
Wow, that reddit is something else. It seems like the commenters include folks with disabilities of various sorts who would like to be working but have faced significant challenges doing so, and are there for some sense of validation and increased self-esteem. And then there's the entitled freeloader crowd who disdain the whole idea of working, except they're totally okay that they're mooching off their parents' work... they just personally don't want to do anything to disrupt their "comfortable existence" with "ready meals". Barf. I'm all for the idea that capitalism is a sick and exploitative system, and we should be doing better to value PEOPLE and not their earning potential. But sitting on one's ass living off the hard work of others and (from what I can tell) not making unpaid contibutions to anyone's wellbeing is incredibly exploitative as well.
posted by DTMFA at 11:44 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by DTMFA at 11:44 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
What else to do, then, than sit in your parents' basement and brood?
Look, I really don't want to downplay the long-lasting impact of abuse, or the tenaciousness of depression. But many many many people manage to choose lives not envisioned for them by their parents, and with many fewer advantages to start. It's one thing to think this way when you're seventeen and know nothing but your parents' home. At twenty-seven, not to take steps to build your own life, starting with therapy if necessary, is a choice. Especially if you're financially comfortable. Being mentally ill isn't selfish, but, assuming you are well enough to have insight into your condition (not everyone is), not working to get better and dumping the costs on those around you instead is.
Also, in what world do you want to cook or provide childcare for people who will criticize you for being selfish if you don't?
The world in which most women live, actually.
posted by praemunire at 11:45 AM on March 11, 2021 [119 favorites]
Look, I really don't want to downplay the long-lasting impact of abuse, or the tenaciousness of depression. But many many many people manage to choose lives not envisioned for them by their parents, and with many fewer advantages to start. It's one thing to think this way when you're seventeen and know nothing but your parents' home. At twenty-seven, not to take steps to build your own life, starting with therapy if necessary, is a choice. Especially if you're financially comfortable. Being mentally ill isn't selfish, but, assuming you are well enough to have insight into your condition (not everyone is), not working to get better and dumping the costs on those around you instead is.
Also, in what world do you want to cook or provide childcare for people who will criticize you for being selfish if you don't?
The world in which most women live, actually.
posted by praemunire at 11:45 AM on March 11, 2021 [119 favorites]
The world in which most women live, actually.
QFFT!
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:48 AM on March 11, 2021 [29 favorites]
QFFT!
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:48 AM on March 11, 2021 [29 favorites]
NEETs in Japan: What Does It Mean? That's where I first heard this acronym; didn't realize its reach had expanded (into a sub-reddit, no less).
It started in, like most shitty things on the Internet, chan culture.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:51 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
It started in, like most shitty things on the Internet, chan culture.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:51 AM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it's really the attitude that makes a NEET. A housewife or househusband (house spouse?) is a person Not in Employment, Education, or Training. My partner has a college degree and does not work (other than an hour or two of administrative work a week) but their attitude is completely different. They're grateful that I can work and they help out however they can, even if that's limited by disability. They volunteer in the community. They don't look down on people who work, or think that minimum wage jobs are "beneath" them. They just know they can't physically or mentally handle them. They've tried. It completely wrecked them. $7.25 an hour to end up basically comatose when they come home and eventually nearing suicidal isn't worth it.
I agree, and would rather have a happy and healthy partner who can help out around the house than an extra $275 a week. Work 38 hours (never 40, then you'd get benefits!) a week then spend $150 of it on therapy and the rest on fast food because you're too tired to cook? I seriously get why people are going "what's the point." It's a symptom of the capitalist hellhole we live in. But in order to claim that justification, you gotta understand that the people who do work are subject to the same hellhole system... you don't get to have it both ways. Aim the ire at billionaires and build some community and solidarity with workers.
posted by brook horse at 11:57 AM on March 11, 2021 [42 favorites]
I agree, and would rather have a happy and healthy partner who can help out around the house than an extra $275 a week. Work 38 hours (never 40, then you'd get benefits!) a week then spend $150 of it on therapy and the rest on fast food because you're too tired to cook? I seriously get why people are going "what's the point." It's a symptom of the capitalist hellhole we live in. But in order to claim that justification, you gotta understand that the people who do work are subject to the same hellhole system... you don't get to have it both ways. Aim the ire at billionaires and build some community and solidarity with workers.
posted by brook horse at 11:57 AM on March 11, 2021 [42 favorites]
NEETs in Japan: What Does It Mean?
The Japanese have a subset called hikikomori
posted by adept256 at 11:58 AM on March 11, 2021
The Japanese have a subset called hikikomori
a condition in which the affected individuals refuse to leave their parents' house, do not work or go to school and isolate themselves away from society and family in a single room for a period exceeding six monthsIt's pitiable but sometimes I think, hey, must be nice.
posted by adept256 at 11:58 AM on March 11, 2021
Ok, fair. I'm a woman, for the record, and I resent every single gendered obligation that's handed down to me. I don't want to do that shit but if it needs to be done, I'll do it. Doing something for others because it needs to be done != liking it and doing it voluntarily out of love. For me, it feels different. Guess I have some shit to work out about labor and acts of service.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 11:58 AM on March 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 11:58 AM on March 11, 2021 [17 favorites]
lazaruslong Also, our way of teaching people to fish is to say “There’s a store that sells fishing rods. There’s a body of water that may or may not have fish in it. You’re on your own.”
If they want to borrow a fishing rod? “No. Go into debt to get one.”
If they want to know what kind of bait to use? “Figure it out yourself.”
If they don't know how to cook the fish? “Figure it out yourself.”
If the fish has toxic levels of mercury? “Your fault for fishing there.”
posted by SansPoint at 12:04 PM on March 11, 2021 [34 favorites]
If they want to borrow a fishing rod? “No. Go into debt to get one.”
If they want to know what kind of bait to use? “Figure it out yourself.”
If they don't know how to cook the fish? “Figure it out yourself.”
If the fish has toxic levels of mercury? “Your fault for fishing there.”
posted by SansPoint at 12:04 PM on March 11, 2021 [34 favorites]
Agreed, and believe that resentment to be totally reasonable! But I also believe that a failure of compassion for those who are apparently-wilfully neither seeing nor doing what needs to be done in their own households, and probably resenting and criticising their mothers when they don't do it all with a smile, is reasonable.
posted by inexorably_forward at 12:07 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by inexorably_forward at 12:07 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
I was NEET for around two years after dropping out of college, and did it the classy reddit way, by sponging off lower-middle class parents, not helping around the house, and feeling like I was too good for entry level work, but was not really willing to sustain effort to do anything productive. I watched a lot of movies and spent a lot of time on the nascent internet, and racked up around $5,000 in credit card debt on fast food and . . . jeez, not much else I don't think.
I was depressed, but I honestly just haaaated work at that point so much I couldn't handle it. I had done some retail, customer service jobs, some light manufacturing (ugh, the worst), and I found it so exhausting, I was 20 years old and felt like I was 60 after a day on my feet at the grocery store. The only job I could handle was lifeguarding at a pool, which basically was me sitting in a chair listening to the radio all day, but that was only 3 months a year. And even there, I was just a shitty employee, I wouldn't keep the pool clean, had trouble showing up on time, etc. I remember once I missed the bus to get to work and just decided I couldn't deal with calling in to tell them I'd be late, so I went home and took the phone off the hook and never contacted them again.
I eventually went back to school, and honestly, I don't know what would have happened if that were not a fairly easy route to return to mainstream-ish life. I used student loans to pay off my credit card debt, and just kinda re-started, second chance at life with pretty much no consequences for squandering my first (fairly privileged) shot. Unfortunately not an option for most people. I'm very glad there wasn't a reddit back then, that misery-loves-company dynamic would definitely have been alluring and unhealthy.
posted by skewed at 12:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
I was depressed, but I honestly just haaaated work at that point so much I couldn't handle it. I had done some retail, customer service jobs, some light manufacturing (ugh, the worst), and I found it so exhausting, I was 20 years old and felt like I was 60 after a day on my feet at the grocery store. The only job I could handle was lifeguarding at a pool, which basically was me sitting in a chair listening to the radio all day, but that was only 3 months a year. And even there, I was just a shitty employee, I wouldn't keep the pool clean, had trouble showing up on time, etc. I remember once I missed the bus to get to work and just decided I couldn't deal with calling in to tell them I'd be late, so I went home and took the phone off the hook and never contacted them again.
I eventually went back to school, and honestly, I don't know what would have happened if that were not a fairly easy route to return to mainstream-ish life. I used student loans to pay off my credit card debt, and just kinda re-started, second chance at life with pretty much no consequences for squandering my first (fairly privileged) shot. Unfortunately not an option for most people. I'm very glad there wasn't a reddit back then, that misery-loves-company dynamic would definitely have been alluring and unhealthy.
posted by skewed at 12:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
The NEET acronym is bad framing anyway. I just watched a slow video of a Swedish kid build a log cabin using only hand tools and the forest. It took him a year and I've never seen someone work so hard. Technically this kid is a NEET. It's just a bad definition for for the problem described. How about moochers?
posted by adept256 at 12:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 12:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Look, I really don't want to downplay the long-lasting impact of abuse, or the tenaciousness of depression.
And yet, you go on to do exactly that.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:20 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
And yet, you go on to do exactly that.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:20 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
Being mentally ill isn't selfish, but, assuming you are well enough to have insight into your condition (not everyone is), not working to get better and dumping the costs on those around you instead is.
This is an extraordinarily shitty thing to write. Working to get better?
Not everyone can "get better" from depression by "working" on it. That's a really shitty way to describe depression. Going further to then say that failing to do something that some people CANNOT DO is "dumping the costs on those around you" and "selfish" is just....jesus.
posted by lazaruslong at 12:33 PM on March 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
This is an extraordinarily shitty thing to write. Working to get better?
Not everyone can "get better" from depression by "working" on it. That's a really shitty way to describe depression. Going further to then say that failing to do something that some people CANNOT DO is "dumping the costs on those around you" and "selfish" is just....jesus.
posted by lazaruslong at 12:33 PM on March 11, 2021 [28 favorites]
a condition in which the affected individuals refuse to leave their parents' house, do not work or go to school and isolate themselves away from society and family in a single room for a period exceeding six months
Sounds familiar. This is pretty close to what I have been up to lately due to pandemic.
posted by aniola at 12:34 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sounds familiar. This is pretty close to what I have been up to lately due to pandemic.
posted by aniola at 12:34 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Couple of observations about this. One, although the author of this piece mostly gets the dynamics of the subreddit, one phenomenon that seems to have escaped them is that incel redditors, ever since getting their own subreddit banned, have--in addition to creating at least one non-reddit forum--taken a slash-and-burn approach to incel-adjacent subreddits such as /r/MGTOW (actually quarantined; now /r/MGTOW2 exists) and apparently this one, since one of the mods had to make a "no incel posts please" post and then shut down comments. It's entirely possible that it wasn't that bad of a sub before incels decamped to it.
The other is that I came pretty close to NEETdom as a young adult myself; although I've had to support myself for my entire adult life, I was severely underemployed directly after college, and honestly, if my folks had let me move back home, I would have. Even when I decided on a library career and started out on the path to getting my degree and a professional position, the process was often very discouraging--I had to interview nine times for an entry-level civil service library clerk position, and one of my references (a staff member at the social service agency that I volunteered for, said volunteer service being one of the few bright spots in an otherwise unimpressive resume) had started to suggest that maybe I was barking up the wrong tree. I can only imagine being a woman or person of color trying to do the same thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:49 PM on March 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
The other is that I came pretty close to NEETdom as a young adult myself; although I've had to support myself for my entire adult life, I was severely underemployed directly after college, and honestly, if my folks had let me move back home, I would have. Even when I decided on a library career and started out on the path to getting my degree and a professional position, the process was often very discouraging--I had to interview nine times for an entry-level civil service library clerk position, and one of my references (a staff member at the social service agency that I volunteered for, said volunteer service being one of the few bright spots in an otherwise unimpressive resume) had started to suggest that maybe I was barking up the wrong tree. I can only imagine being a woman or person of color trying to do the same thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:49 PM on March 11, 2021 [8 favorites]
And yet, you go on to do exactly that.
Saying that for many they are not utterly insurmountable and do not generally justify choice of an adult life where you simultaneously expect to be cared for and scorn the people who do that work--where you, a grown person, refuse to do anything but "sit in your parents' basement and brood" because society no longer issues you your own personal woman to dominate as a matter of course--is not the same as downplaying them.
Not everyone can "get better" from depression by "working" on it. That's a really shitty way to describe depression.
I think this might be turning into a derail, but, yes, in my opinion a person who is aware of their mental illness enough to get treated, actually has the option of seeking adequate mental health treatment, and does not seek treatment, preferring instead to make others do all the work for them in their daily lives, is being selfish. Note I didn't say "get themselves cured."
(Also, I wasn't the person who introduced selfishness as a characterization here; I was literally responding to someone else's "It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness." Not sure why you're coming down on me and not them.)
It's so frustrating seeing these discussions turn into an outpouring of sympathy for the poor depressed white boys with their subsidized lifestyles and their vitriolic hate of the people who deny them their due supremacy when no one seems to think that the huge trauma of so many everything-but-white boys growing up in this country justifies...well, any behavior deviating from the norm. I don't think what we're talking about here even is, in most cases, anything resembling debilitating depression. (The hikikomori actually strike me as a rather different case--as I understand it, they essentially refuse all but the most minimal social contact. They don't sit on the Internet rehashing their grievances.)
posted by praemunire at 12:53 PM on March 11, 2021 [36 favorites]
Saying that for many they are not utterly insurmountable and do not generally justify choice of an adult life where you simultaneously expect to be cared for and scorn the people who do that work--where you, a grown person, refuse to do anything but "sit in your parents' basement and brood" because society no longer issues you your own personal woman to dominate as a matter of course--is not the same as downplaying them.
Not everyone can "get better" from depression by "working" on it. That's a really shitty way to describe depression.
I think this might be turning into a derail, but, yes, in my opinion a person who is aware of their mental illness enough to get treated, actually has the option of seeking adequate mental health treatment, and does not seek treatment, preferring instead to make others do all the work for them in their daily lives, is being selfish. Note I didn't say "get themselves cured."
(Also, I wasn't the person who introduced selfishness as a characterization here; I was literally responding to someone else's "It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness." Not sure why you're coming down on me and not them.)
It's so frustrating seeing these discussions turn into an outpouring of sympathy for the poor depressed white boys with their subsidized lifestyles and their vitriolic hate of the people who deny them their due supremacy when no one seems to think that the huge trauma of so many everything-but-white boys growing up in this country justifies...well, any behavior deviating from the norm. I don't think what we're talking about here even is, in most cases, anything resembling debilitating depression. (The hikikomori actually strike me as a rather different case--as I understand it, they essentially refuse all but the most minimal social contact. They don't sit on the Internet rehashing their grievances.)
posted by praemunire at 12:53 PM on March 11, 2021 [36 favorites]
It's entirely possible that it wasn't that bad of a sub before incels decamped to it.
The state of being a NEET in the sense a social worker would generally use it--that is, neutrally, to describe people of a certain age who aren't on the normal career trajectory for people of that age--is very challenging (I've seen a number of my relatives struggle with it), and it would be good for such people to have non-incel-dominated support groups to turn to. It's a pity that they seem to be getting...this.
posted by praemunire at 12:56 PM on March 11, 2021 [19 favorites]
The state of being a NEET in the sense a social worker would generally use it--that is, neutrally, to describe people of a certain age who aren't on the normal career trajectory for people of that age--is very challenging (I've seen a number of my relatives struggle with it), and it would be good for such people to have non-incel-dominated support groups to turn to. It's a pity that they seem to be getting...this.
posted by praemunire at 12:56 PM on March 11, 2021 [19 favorites]
I dropped out of college and bounced from shitty job to shitty job while trying to figure my life out. There were times my parents paid for my life. There were times I lived off of borrowed good will from friends that I tried to repay as quickly as possible. It wasn't until much later that I realized depression isn't just sitting in my room and crying as I listen to the last track on The Crow soundtrack over and over again.
But I still worked. For a year, I paid rent in one town while sleeping at my parents' house two hours away to work a job an hour from their house that I hated. When I finally found a job in the town I actually lived in, it was for $6.25 an hour and basically allowed me to live. I borrowed rides to work every night and walked home every morning in the Mississippi heat.
Then I moved north, to do the same job for $10 an hour! Then 9/11 happened. Then the economic fallout happened. I would bounce from job to job, always making enough to pay my bills but never enough to get ahead. Then 2007 happened and suddenly I couldn't find work at all. I don't think I tried very hard at times, assuming that things would get better like they always did before. But they didn't. Shitty jobs turned into shittier jobs, and my hard-won savings dwindled every month until I essentially gave up.
Then I met my wife, and suddenly I had a reason not to work! She had enough money to cover our bills, but had to travel and work ungodly hours so being a house-husband gave me something productive to do. Ignore the niggling voice in my head reminding me that if I found a job we'd be in a better position, because after a while the rejection sucked. Ignore my friends making shitty comments about being a hausfrau because they are just being sexist. Ignore everything until my wife gets pregnant and I am confronted with a real need to get the fuck over it and do something with myself.
I could have been a NEET as defined by Reddit. My feet dangled over that precipice more than once, and I think only my innate sense of decency kept me from it. I remember the awful feeling of "what do you do for a living" when I met new people, and I remember being so angry at knowing I could do the work, if only given the chance - but also knowing that I was not jumping at the chance because I was tired of failing. I can't imagine if I had fallen into a trap like this that reinforced my negative qualities, but I don't know that I have sympathy for people who don't have enough self-awareness to realize what they are doing, only pity and a desire to shake them until they figure it out.
posted by gwydapllew at 1:11 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
But I still worked. For a year, I paid rent in one town while sleeping at my parents' house two hours away to work a job an hour from their house that I hated. When I finally found a job in the town I actually lived in, it was for $6.25 an hour and basically allowed me to live. I borrowed rides to work every night and walked home every morning in the Mississippi heat.
Then I moved north, to do the same job for $10 an hour! Then 9/11 happened. Then the economic fallout happened. I would bounce from job to job, always making enough to pay my bills but never enough to get ahead. Then 2007 happened and suddenly I couldn't find work at all. I don't think I tried very hard at times, assuming that things would get better like they always did before. But they didn't. Shitty jobs turned into shittier jobs, and my hard-won savings dwindled every month until I essentially gave up.
Then I met my wife, and suddenly I had a reason not to work! She had enough money to cover our bills, but had to travel and work ungodly hours so being a house-husband gave me something productive to do. Ignore the niggling voice in my head reminding me that if I found a job we'd be in a better position, because after a while the rejection sucked. Ignore my friends making shitty comments about being a hausfrau because they are just being sexist. Ignore everything until my wife gets pregnant and I am confronted with a real need to get the fuck over it and do something with myself.
I could have been a NEET as defined by Reddit. My feet dangled over that precipice more than once, and I think only my innate sense of decency kept me from it. I remember the awful feeling of "what do you do for a living" when I met new people, and I remember being so angry at knowing I could do the work, if only given the chance - but also knowing that I was not jumping at the chance because I was tired of failing. I can't imagine if I had fallen into a trap like this that reinforced my negative qualities, but I don't know that I have sympathy for people who don't have enough self-awareness to realize what they are doing, only pity and a desire to shake them until they figure it out.
posted by gwydapllew at 1:11 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
In another age these people would have had hermitic or monastic tradition to fall back on. It’s a common feature of lots of dissimilar cultures around the world to have organised (and unorganised) isolation, or a religious alternative to work. It’s only in the modern world that it’s packaged up with such toxicity...
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 1:17 PM on March 11, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 1:17 PM on March 11, 2021 [19 favorites]
lol, reddit NEET energy people would not be able to hack it in a monastery
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 1:31 PM on March 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by nixon's meatloaf at 1:31 PM on March 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
Not everyone can "get better" from depression by "working" on it. That's a really shitty way to describe depression. Going further to then say that failing to do something that some people CANNOT DO is "dumping the costs on those around you" and "selfish" is just....jesus.
I am a person with a severe mental health condition, that has many friends and former associatese who have severe mental health conditions, and I'm going to say that it is nearly universally the cis white males among them that came from middle class backgrounds that are currently engaging in hateful behavior to others, refusing to in any way try to manage their condition, insisting 'nothing will ever make it better' and offloading all work related to said condition onto other people in the most entitled way that I've ever seen until reading this article. It is largely everyone else that is trying to find strategies to deal with the world - that while they may involve asking for help, do not involve demanding it as a divine right.
Depression absolutely affects your ability to do things. It doesn't make you be shitty to people and refuse to apologize for it or do any reparative work afterwards. That's a choice, not a disability result.
Disability may mean that you can't work in a traditional workplace.
NEET entitlement is making fun of people that do.
Disability may mean that you are unable to cook your own food and may need assistance
NEET entitlement is demanding others do so and not even appreciating their labor.
Disability may mean that you are not able to perform certain household chores.
NEET entitlement is getting resentful about even a 5 minute assistance request and refusing to offer an alternative.
posted by corb at 1:33 PM on March 11, 2021 [54 favorites]
I am a person with a severe mental health condition, that has many friends and former associatese who have severe mental health conditions, and I'm going to say that it is nearly universally the cis white males among them that came from middle class backgrounds that are currently engaging in hateful behavior to others, refusing to in any way try to manage their condition, insisting 'nothing will ever make it better' and offloading all work related to said condition onto other people in the most entitled way that I've ever seen until reading this article. It is largely everyone else that is trying to find strategies to deal with the world - that while they may involve asking for help, do not involve demanding it as a divine right.
Depression absolutely affects your ability to do things. It doesn't make you be shitty to people and refuse to apologize for it or do any reparative work afterwards. That's a choice, not a disability result.
Disability may mean that you can't work in a traditional workplace.
NEET entitlement is making fun of people that do.
Disability may mean that you are unable to cook your own food and may need assistance
NEET entitlement is demanding others do so and not even appreciating their labor.
Disability may mean that you are not able to perform certain household chores.
NEET entitlement is getting resentful about even a 5 minute assistance request and refusing to offer an alternative.
posted by corb at 1:33 PM on March 11, 2021 [54 favorites]
Depression absolutely affects your ability to do things. It doesn't make you be shitty to people and refuse to apologize for it or do any reparative work afterwards. That's a choice, not a disability result.
literally no one said that it does? the ridiculous strawmen to justify shitty framing of depression is really off the charts in here. enjoy it, i'm out of this thread.
posted by lazaruslong at 1:36 PM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
literally no one said that it does? the ridiculous strawmen to justify shitty framing of depression is really off the charts in here. enjoy it, i'm out of this thread.
posted by lazaruslong at 1:36 PM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Boy, if I were a man who had suffered depression and sometimes had to rely on others - and who sometimes struggled to get out of depression cycles where they acted poorly - this thread sure makes me think that other people would have had my back, and not just dismissed me as the worst of the worst!
Love ya, Metafilter.
posted by sagc at 1:42 PM on March 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
Love ya, Metafilter.
posted by sagc at 1:42 PM on March 11, 2021 [14 favorites]
Me: Get a job, you lazy slacker! BE A MAN! SACK UP!
Metafilter: How disgusting, truly you lack compassion.
Me: Get a job, you lazy slacker! Be a real man! SACK UP! But wokely!
Metafilter: So true.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 1:47 PM on March 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
Metafilter: How disgusting, truly you lack compassion.
Me: Get a job, you lazy slacker! Be a real man! SACK UP! But wokely!
Metafilter: So true.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 1:47 PM on March 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
The phrase "Be a man," meansI’ve been depressed and unemployed, and I’m also a man, and while I’ve never been close to having the Reddit attitude, not having a job absolutely made me a more hateful person, to my own shame, and gave me a chip on my shoulder about work culture I’ll never really get rid of. Our society’s packaging of masculinity with wage earning, rugged making-something-of-one’s-self or some other ‘productivity’ is hugely destructive, of selves and of groups. It’s not just the reactionaries either; it’s a cultural norm of the West.
These reddit people have no self-respect, no perspective and no sense of compassion, at best they’re pathetic (in the deep sense of pathos) but they’re insightful enough to know that getting self-worth from the money you make or the hours you clock is a sucker’s game. Just being horrible doesn’t make them stupid.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 1:51 PM on March 11, 2021 [16 favorites]
Praemunire, your comment was in direct response to a comment where a poster shared a personal experience with mental illness and a dysfunctional/abusive family. Their intent in doing so appeared to be to shed some light on the place incel/NEETs can find themselves which makes them vulnerable to this misogynistic right wing rhetoric.
Your response read to me as saying that this was no excuse - and sidebar, I don't think the poster intended it as one - not because misogyny and bigotry are always bad, but because, in your own words:
At twenty-seven, not to take steps to build your own life, starting with therapy if necessary, is a choice.
which is absolute, grade-a uncut 100% ableist bullshit. Like I need you to understand, I was making active plans to kill myself at 27 because my failure to launch - as a result of mental illness and neurodivergence - clearly meant my life was worthless. And after all, I was an adult, wasn't I? I should be able to do this. Not being able to was, clearly, because I was basically wrong and broken and should die to make room for others. I did not invent this rhetoric whole-cloth to wound myself with. Someone taught it to me.
(Also, I wasn't the person who introduced selfishness as a characterization here; I was literally responding to someone else's "It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness." Not sure why you're coming down on me and not them.)
Because "unintentional" is doing important work in that sentence. Mental illness often makes people selfish, because it is an illness and a chronic one that's not always easily managed at that, and being sick is exhausting and painful. People who are tired and in pain aren't their best selves, don't have the resources and capacities of others, and yes, must be selfish compared to the basically healthy - at least until we get that luxury gay socialist spacefuture we're all waiting for. That's not even getting into the degree to which mental illness can warp your perceptions of what is and is not selfish or selfless.
I understand your anger at the incel subculture. I share that anger. They're wildly unpleasant people, and can be dangerous when mobilized; their rhetoric leaking into the mainstream, even as jokes and memes, is disturbing and alarming. I also understand that you may have felt the poster you responded to was trying to derail or obscure the issue by bringing an unrelated personal experience in. However, it is extremely easy to express both those concerns without being ableist. Which you were. Calling that out is not a derail - but all this doubling down afterwards sure is starting to be.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 1:55 PM on March 11, 2021 [61 favorites]
Your response read to me as saying that this was no excuse - and sidebar, I don't think the poster intended it as one - not because misogyny and bigotry are always bad, but because, in your own words:
At twenty-seven, not to take steps to build your own life, starting with therapy if necessary, is a choice.
which is absolute, grade-a uncut 100% ableist bullshit. Like I need you to understand, I was making active plans to kill myself at 27 because my failure to launch - as a result of mental illness and neurodivergence - clearly meant my life was worthless. And after all, I was an adult, wasn't I? I should be able to do this. Not being able to was, clearly, because I was basically wrong and broken and should die to make room for others. I did not invent this rhetoric whole-cloth to wound myself with. Someone taught it to me.
(Also, I wasn't the person who introduced selfishness as a characterization here; I was literally responding to someone else's "It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness." Not sure why you're coming down on me and not them.)
Because "unintentional" is doing important work in that sentence. Mental illness often makes people selfish, because it is an illness and a chronic one that's not always easily managed at that, and being sick is exhausting and painful. People who are tired and in pain aren't their best selves, don't have the resources and capacities of others, and yes, must be selfish compared to the basically healthy - at least until we get that luxury gay socialist spacefuture we're all waiting for. That's not even getting into the degree to which mental illness can warp your perceptions of what is and is not selfish or selfless.
I understand your anger at the incel subculture. I share that anger. They're wildly unpleasant people, and can be dangerous when mobilized; their rhetoric leaking into the mainstream, even as jokes and memes, is disturbing and alarming. I also understand that you may have felt the poster you responded to was trying to derail or obscure the issue by bringing an unrelated personal experience in. However, it is extremely easy to express both those concerns without being ableist. Which you were. Calling that out is not a derail - but all this doubling down afterwards sure is starting to be.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 1:55 PM on March 11, 2021 [61 favorites]
fantastic post, a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist - and scruffy-looking nerfherder, too!
posted by sagc at 1:57 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 1:57 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
The phrase "Be a man," means to beat the shit out of that NEET inside you, take responsibility for your life, and make something of your self. Every generation has to learn this.
Is that from Jordan Peterson's new book?
The way forward with Incels is by showing them that their problems are due to systemic problems. This helps lead them away from blaming themselves and others, and toward active engagement.
posted by No Robots at 1:58 PM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Is that from Jordan Peterson's new book?
The way forward with Incels is by showing them that their problems are due to systemic problems. This helps lead them away from blaming themselves and others, and toward active engagement.
posted by No Robots at 1:58 PM on March 11, 2021 [9 favorites]
Right, stillnocturnal, but I think people are saying that it's equally black-and-white to assume that anyone acting poorly is *not* looking for help, or *isn't* currently under psychiatric care, etc. There's an undercurrent above that getting therapy will somehow cure depression, and that's not the case.
posted by sagc at 2:02 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:02 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yeah could we not use the canards that boomers use to talk about depression and mental illness? Thanks.
posted by polymodus at 2:03 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 2:03 PM on March 11, 2021 [7 favorites]
I understand there's a certain strain of therapy that tries to affirm people's agency and choices, but people here are not therapists and assuming ideas/concepts that works for oneself does not mean that those are appropriate for other people. The assumption, that I and others make, is that if someone is (e.g.) not taking their meds, that that is also an issue entangled with mental illness, not something reducible to a matter of personal choice. The context of the article is an issue of capitalism, so talking about "choice" as if it were an objective reality (and this sort of casual unsolicited advice-giving in general) is a way to retraumatize the precarious class, because it repeats the same oppressive neoliberalized language that so-called NEETs and others with similar experiences have be heard/told. Many find it unhelpful.
posted by polymodus at 2:07 PM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 2:07 PM on March 11, 2021 [5 favorites]
I am a therapist.
Depression actively tries to prevent you from getting help. I have had suicidal ideation, as a therapist, for which I was unable to get any help. Framing getting help as "a choice" is eminently unhelpful. I understand the pull to do so. I have had friends who treated me horribly, for whom I did everything I could to help them access mental health treatment, and they still would not do it.
It was easy for me to think "well they're just choosing not to get better." And you know? Maybe that's the case for some people. But it is literally not possible for you to tell whether someone is "choosing" not to get help, versus unable to fight hard enough against the thing in your head that is actively clawing you away from the therapist's office.
I repeat. I am a therapist and I was UNABLE TO GET MY ASS TO THERAPY during a depressive episode. Was that a choice? At this point, I'm not sure what "choice" even means. But I do know that most of the people I see are not at their absolute worst. Most of them have had worse periods of depression, and those were periods in which they could not get help.
I do still think the NEET attitude towards other people described in this article is hurtful and wrong. But let's not start going down the "you just don't want to get better" rabbit hole because this is the shit that takes months for me to help my clients unlearn. Seriously. Just picture every one of these comments adding another month on to therapy because my clients hate themselves that much more for not being able to "choose" to get help. The attitude is shitty but let's not reinforce ableist ideas while we critique it.
posted by brook horse at 2:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [102 favorites]
Depression actively tries to prevent you from getting help. I have had suicidal ideation, as a therapist, for which I was unable to get any help. Framing getting help as "a choice" is eminently unhelpful. I understand the pull to do so. I have had friends who treated me horribly, for whom I did everything I could to help them access mental health treatment, and they still would not do it.
It was easy for me to think "well they're just choosing not to get better." And you know? Maybe that's the case for some people. But it is literally not possible for you to tell whether someone is "choosing" not to get help, versus unable to fight hard enough against the thing in your head that is actively clawing you away from the therapist's office.
I repeat. I am a therapist and I was UNABLE TO GET MY ASS TO THERAPY during a depressive episode. Was that a choice? At this point, I'm not sure what "choice" even means. But I do know that most of the people I see are not at their absolute worst. Most of them have had worse periods of depression, and those were periods in which they could not get help.
I do still think the NEET attitude towards other people described in this article is hurtful and wrong. But let's not start going down the "you just don't want to get better" rabbit hole because this is the shit that takes months for me to help my clients unlearn. Seriously. Just picture every one of these comments adding another month on to therapy because my clients hate themselves that much more for not being able to "choose" to get help. The attitude is shitty but let's not reinforce ableist ideas while we critique it.
posted by brook horse at 2:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [102 favorites]
Ok, so does it help if I say I was severely, dangerously depressed once? And it did affect everyone around me, and therapy did not help at all, but I tried various things for the sake of the people who cared about me. Because choosing not to, because it was so goddamn hard and discouraging and exhausting, wouldn't have just affected me.
I'm not coming at this from the outside.
I am, sincerely, glad that framing it that way worked for you.
It didn't for me, and I'm not an outlier in that.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:12 PM on March 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
I'm not coming at this from the outside.
I am, sincerely, glad that framing it that way worked for you.
It didn't for me, and I'm not an outlier in that.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:12 PM on March 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
There is an insoluble problem at the base of the NEET phenomenon.
There are not enough renewable resources in the world, let alone the developed countries themselves, for everyone in those developed countries to lead the big, active, family-producing lives which are the ideals.
Societies might be able to construct happy, fulfilled lifestyles which consume as few resources (and even much less is necessary) as NEETs do, but if we've made any real progress along those lines, I haven't seen it.
posted by jamjam at 2:19 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
There are not enough renewable resources in the world, let alone the developed countries themselves, for everyone in those developed countries to lead the big, active, family-producing lives which are the ideals.
Societies might be able to construct happy, fulfilled lifestyles which consume as few resources (and even much less is necessary) as NEETs do, but if we've made any real progress along those lines, I haven't seen it.
posted by jamjam at 2:19 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also, if you're not currently experiencing anhedonia, it's really easy to think "I would just try hard enough to make a change." I'm not in a depressive episode anymore, but I get severe anhedonia as part of my migraine prodrome. And you truly cannot imagine how much anhedonia does not give a fuck about your choice. I can cognitively choose to read the book lying next to me on the table, and then lay there for 6 hours staring at the ceiling instead. Every time I come out of it, I think, "Next time I will simply pick up the book!" and then I never fucking do. And I have years of practice with everything you're supposed to do to maintain your mental health. Migraine prodrome doesn't care and I still can't just "choose" to do things.
And yet every time I think that next time, I can if I just try hard enough. But I can't until the brain signals do their thing and the anhedonia magically lifts. So maybe, if you have a history of depression and you were able to get out of it, consider whether that same thing is happening to you. Consider whether your non-anhedonic (or less anhedonic) self is accurately representing what it's like to have anhedonia, because in my experience it's really damn easy to downplay even, perhaps especially, when you have experienced it yourself.
posted by brook horse at 2:24 PM on March 11, 2021 [37 favorites]
And yet every time I think that next time, I can if I just try hard enough. But I can't until the brain signals do their thing and the anhedonia magically lifts. So maybe, if you have a history of depression and you were able to get out of it, consider whether that same thing is happening to you. Consider whether your non-anhedonic (or less anhedonic) self is accurately representing what it's like to have anhedonia, because in my experience it's really damn easy to downplay even, perhaps especially, when you have experienced it yourself.
posted by brook horse at 2:24 PM on March 11, 2021 [37 favorites]
Good thing nobody is saying that we have to assume that, or that it's somehow an excuse! Good thing people where trying to share their own personal experiences with depression and growing up in a controlling household, and then being told that the problem was just one of wherewithal!
Of course they're also making decisions! But I'd also question your idea that the depression is over here on one side, and the ability to be a good person is way over on the other. Guess what? Depression changes how you act.
posted by sagc at 2:25 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Of course they're also making decisions! But I'd also question your idea that the depression is over here on one side, and the ability to be a good person is way over on the other. Guess what? Depression changes how you act.
posted by sagc at 2:25 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Okay, I think that if we're all in repeat threads where two seemingly contradictory things are obviously true, we need to figure out a bigger framework.
Because two seemingly contradictory things are obviously true, here:
1. Depression and other mental health problems are a big factor in the NEET phenomenon and you can't just tell large groups of people to bootstrap themselves out of their depression even if you do occasionally meet an individual person who does benefit from "you have to make some effort to get better".
2. There's a bunch of self-identified NEETs who are white men who are in fact making some choices about their situations - choosing misogyny, choosing the easier short term path, choosing to take advantage of families who very often can't really afford to support them. We know that there's some element of choice here because frankly right-wing NEETdom is mostly white, mostly male, mostly affluent. People with fewer choices are far more likely to struggle to maintain themselves through crummy irregular work, survival sex, etc because they literally can't live in the basement on their family's money.
Trying to talk about the depression gets read as excusing the misogyny. Trying to talk about agency gets read as blaming people for depression.
How do we make an explanation that can cover the whole " a well-defined subgroup of NEETS are depressed and also misogynist, what can we reasonably ask of people" thing?
posted by Frowner at 2:40 PM on March 11, 2021 [93 favorites]
Because two seemingly contradictory things are obviously true, here:
1. Depression and other mental health problems are a big factor in the NEET phenomenon and you can't just tell large groups of people to bootstrap themselves out of their depression even if you do occasionally meet an individual person who does benefit from "you have to make some effort to get better".
2. There's a bunch of self-identified NEETs who are white men who are in fact making some choices about their situations - choosing misogyny, choosing the easier short term path, choosing to take advantage of families who very often can't really afford to support them. We know that there's some element of choice here because frankly right-wing NEETdom is mostly white, mostly male, mostly affluent. People with fewer choices are far more likely to struggle to maintain themselves through crummy irregular work, survival sex, etc because they literally can't live in the basement on their family's money.
Trying to talk about the depression gets read as excusing the misogyny. Trying to talk about agency gets read as blaming people for depression.
How do we make an explanation that can cover the whole " a well-defined subgroup of NEETS are depressed and also misogynist, what can we reasonably ask of people" thing?
posted by Frowner at 2:40 PM on March 11, 2021 [93 favorites]
we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how these poor men might not be responsible for the shitty things they do, whether that be refuse to contribute to the household when capable, harass women, or vote for white supremacists. Yeah! Sometimes they are depressed, etc. But often they are not,
The less depressed they are, the more likely they are to do the very things you describe, so I would say we all have to be careful what we wish for in this perilous situation.
posted by jamjam at 2:42 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
The less depressed they are, the more likely they are to do the very things you describe, so I would say we all have to be careful what we wish for in this perilous situation.
posted by jamjam at 2:42 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think part of it is that the solutions to both, on a systemic level, are pretty similar and kind of anodyne; we need a better social safety net that both helps people before they're feeling that they need to self-identify as a NEET, we need a better social safety net so that people aren't roped in by guilt and family ties to care for them, we need a better social safety net that presents opportunities as a matter of course for the sort of interactions that prevent someone from falling into the particularly misogynistic hole of reddit NEET-dom.
posted by sagc at 2:43 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:43 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
(I asked the mods to delete my comments because I felt uncomfortable getting so personal, in retrospect, and obviously my comments were more hurtful to people than helpful anyway. Apologies to all for fucking up the thread)
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:44 PM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by stillnocturnal at 2:44 PM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
UMC NEETS seem to resent that women are in the workforce at all and can support themselves independent of men, thus usurping their 'provider' status.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:45 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:45 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think intersectionality is a helpful concept, and would emphasize that intersectional analysis needs to treat classism as a serious category, and to take structural issues seriously rather than revert to neoliberal notions of choice. I also think the article describes some level of privilege but that's quite distinct than formulating the problems and solutions in terms of individual choice.
posted by polymodus at 2:47 PM on March 11, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 2:47 PM on March 11, 2021 [12 favorites]
I was NEET for about half a year after I graduated from university and then got fired from my stop-gap job at Subway. It was a low, depressed point in my life and I sort of gave up on various things for a while, but I didn't direct my negative emotions about my own situation outwards at other people, nor did I "frame [my] inactivity as an explicit rejection of the unfair status quo" and look down on people who had jobs I considered "beneath me." It seems like a big difference between the people who go the incel/NEET route and those who don't is how they deal with negative emotions and experiences and whether or not they lash out at others.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:52 PM on March 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:52 PM on March 11, 2021 [11 favorites]
Content warning: serious intimate partner violence, self-harm
I think one of the things that is maybe unspoken here, and that might help to be spoken, is that there are power dynamics of oppression at play here, and many of us are coming at this from a place of personal trauma and trauma we have witnessed play out on our friends and loved ones.
I am a person who struggles with (among other things) severe depression. I was also absolutely physically, mentally, and sexually abused by a cis white man who had mental health struggles exacerbated by feelings of inferiority, who prior to moving in with me was, I realize from reading this article, a NEET who had never had to face up to the fact that the things he was doing were abusive. If we want to talk about suicidality, this man absolutely was responsible for bringing me to the absolute brink of suicide and is responsible for a large portion of the severe post-traumatic stress that affects every fiber of my waking and sleeping being today.
This man, like many men who abuse women, insisted that he did not need therapy, that it was his right to avoid it, and that none of how he behaved once he was in my house was his fault because of his mental health status. These men, who abuse women, often have reasons - perhaps they have long lists of why therapy isn't scientifically validated (false) or how going to therapy will take their guns away (also false) or how everyone out there is like them and they're really quite normal (mostly false).
And perhaps it is true that even while going to therapy for his rage and despair, that he would still have raped me, beaten me, vented his rage at being a cog in the system on my body again and again which he considered the only thing he could tell himself was lesser than his, by virtue of my womanhood, my lack of whiteness, my demeaning-in-his-eyes employment.
He beat me, in part, because I refused to continue the things he had told himself were necessary for his mental health and reasonable for him to ask of me. After all, his mother, who he had lived with previously, had been intimidated enough to perform them, so why not I? His perfect solitude and lack of even the tiniest noise that might jangle his tranquil. His food, cooked perfectly and exactly to his specifications. The house, made exactingly perfect no matter how exhausted and broken I felt. I recall once being beaten for not separating the dishes in the precise way he thought was necessary to provide him the quiet harmony he thought he deserved. He, like many abusive men, told me that his violent rage was my fault because I had not provided it. Had not helped him with his struggles. Didn't care enough.
I desperately wish someone, someone along the chain before he came to me, had told him that regardless of the extent of his mental illness, it did not make it acceptable for him to take it out on other people. I wish they had told him that before he graduated to abusing me.
posted by corb at 2:54 PM on March 11, 2021 [82 favorites]
I think one of the things that is maybe unspoken here, and that might help to be spoken, is that there are power dynamics of oppression at play here, and many of us are coming at this from a place of personal trauma and trauma we have witnessed play out on our friends and loved ones.
I am a person who struggles with (among other things) severe depression. I was also absolutely physically, mentally, and sexually abused by a cis white man who had mental health struggles exacerbated by feelings of inferiority, who prior to moving in with me was, I realize from reading this article, a NEET who had never had to face up to the fact that the things he was doing were abusive. If we want to talk about suicidality, this man absolutely was responsible for bringing me to the absolute brink of suicide and is responsible for a large portion of the severe post-traumatic stress that affects every fiber of my waking and sleeping being today.
This man, like many men who abuse women, insisted that he did not need therapy, that it was his right to avoid it, and that none of how he behaved once he was in my house was his fault because of his mental health status. These men, who abuse women, often have reasons - perhaps they have long lists of why therapy isn't scientifically validated (false) or how going to therapy will take their guns away (also false) or how everyone out there is like them and they're really quite normal (mostly false).
And perhaps it is true that even while going to therapy for his rage and despair, that he would still have raped me, beaten me, vented his rage at being a cog in the system on my body again and again which he considered the only thing he could tell himself was lesser than his, by virtue of my womanhood, my lack of whiteness, my demeaning-in-his-eyes employment.
He beat me, in part, because I refused to continue the things he had told himself were necessary for his mental health and reasonable for him to ask of me. After all, his mother, who he had lived with previously, had been intimidated enough to perform them, so why not I? His perfect solitude and lack of even the tiniest noise that might jangle his tranquil. His food, cooked perfectly and exactly to his specifications. The house, made exactingly perfect no matter how exhausted and broken I felt. I recall once being beaten for not separating the dishes in the precise way he thought was necessary to provide him the quiet harmony he thought he deserved. He, like many abusive men, told me that his violent rage was my fault because I had not provided it. Had not helped him with his struggles. Didn't care enough.
I desperately wish someone, someone along the chain before he came to me, had told him that regardless of the extent of his mental illness, it did not make it acceptable for him to take it out on other people. I wish they had told him that before he graduated to abusing me.
posted by corb at 2:54 PM on March 11, 2021 [82 favorites]
Look, let me be super clear here. I shared some thoughts/perspective to process my own shit (mostly that, I'm very sorry for the derail, I didn't know it would go in this direction, mods please feel free to delete if necessary) and maybe get people to consider there may be more complicated emotional reasons than being a misogynist asshole or a low-self-esteem underachiever that keep people at home and in limbo. In no way does this excuse them from treating women like trash. Full stop. That lifestyle is often fueled by women's unvalued labor, and only possible with affluent parents. I dont think any of us disagree that the way incels treat/think about women is horrible.
Also notable that not once did I use the word "depression" or let anyone off the hook for their shitty behavior for being mentally ill. I'm not blaming or excusing anyone. Just trying to speak about emotional dynamics that may keep people trapped in sick systems/at home. This might have been somewhat off topic given that TFA was about the incel flavor of this phenomenon. Sorry about that.
But I think we can hold the complexity that depressed people can treat others like shit without meaning to AND that treating women in particular like servants is often not part of that phenomenon. In no way did I mean to conflate that, and I'm really sorry if I did. Getting these people depression treatment may or may not help them challenge their beliefs about us, but it sure as hell won't hurt.
On preview, what corb said. Abusing women and blaming it on depression is absolutely horrible and unacceptable. I'm sorry for ignoring that in my original comment, I should've been more clear.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 3:04 PM on March 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
Also notable that not once did I use the word "depression" or let anyone off the hook for their shitty behavior for being mentally ill. I'm not blaming or excusing anyone. Just trying to speak about emotional dynamics that may keep people trapped in sick systems/at home. This might have been somewhat off topic given that TFA was about the incel flavor of this phenomenon. Sorry about that.
But I think we can hold the complexity that depressed people can treat others like shit without meaning to AND that treating women in particular like servants is often not part of that phenomenon. In no way did I mean to conflate that, and I'm really sorry if I did. Getting these people depression treatment may or may not help them challenge their beliefs about us, but it sure as hell won't hurt.
On preview, what corb said. Abusing women and blaming it on depression is absolutely horrible and unacceptable. I'm sorry for ignoring that in my original comment, I should've been more clear.
posted by scruffy-looking nerfherder at 3:04 PM on March 11, 2021 [24 favorites]
Meaningfulness of work is much more important than people realize. Every single person you meet, almost, would work for almost nothing if they knew they were really helping and their work would be recognized.
Recognized, and recognized enough that they would be treated well.
posted by amtho at 3:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
Recognized, and recognized enough that they would be treated well.
posted by amtho at 3:09 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
Amtho, here's the thing—while that's true about meaningfulness of work, it's the complementary attitude, that without work or 'recognised' activity, one's life doesn't have meaning, is one of the reasons these people are like this, and one of the reasons our culture confuses 'production' with human dignity.
The tragic thing about these Reddit people is that so many of their injuries to their own dignity are things they're doing to themeslves. Imagine being both incredibly self-centred and at the same time having so little self-respect; what a psychological place to be.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:21 PM on March 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
The tragic thing about these Reddit people is that so many of their injuries to their own dignity are things they're doing to themeslves. Imagine being both incredibly self-centred and at the same time having so little self-respect; what a psychological place to be.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:21 PM on March 11, 2021 [6 favorites]
Mod note: Heya, I've just made a followup pass through this thread and nixed a few things where the exchanges and nth-comments were heat instead of light. I appreciate that the thread has seemingly righted itself a bit at this point, but I want to explicitly encourage folks to do a couple things. One, recognize that as Frowner notes there's a collision of a couple different things in this post (the general reality of existing under late capitalism and with mental illness, which honestly let's see a show of hands, right? ...and then the toxic incel/etc aspects specifically of this subreddit culture in question) and to keep those clearly separate so we're not unloading justifiable anger at the latter on folks here sharing their experiences with the former. Two, take more care to not trivialize or dismiss or handwave away the realities of mental illness, of the ways in which depression, anxiety, trauma, and other sorts of bad chronic headspace interfere with people's ability to function up to or conform to random strangers' standards or expectations.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
I'm not a therapist, I have not been trained in therapy or mental health or psychology; I'm just your run of the mill yutz.
But I'm seeing a nuance in the article which, for me, is distinguishing this from depression, or how people with depression handle things. What I mean is - as I understand it - depression can often convince people that there is no hope, or that it is useless to try to seek help. I understand that simply trying to reach out when one is in the midst of depression can take a herculean effort.
The difference between that and the NEETs, as I understand the NEETs to be, is that people with depression (or even people without depression) may very well have been reaching out for support, but they found a community of people who are saying that "your depression is ABSOLVING YOU from trying to get help! Your brain is just broken and cannot ever be repaired, so fuck it!" That, to me, feels different - it is an EXTERNAL voice telling you "you have depression and it can't be fixed" rather than your own brain telling you that. It's a community of outsiders who are validating the voice of depression in your own brain.
And that feels different to me, somehow. It's not the depression in Sid's own head that makes him a NEET - it's the fact that the depression in Sid's own head is being echoed by Jake and Skeeter and Lucas and whoever.
And weirdly, now that I think of it, I can kind of see the appeal. Most of the rest of the world is so ham-handed when it comes to dealing with people who have depression - many of us stammer out some kind of overly-glib "stay positive, it'll get better!" thing or unthinkingly post memes about how "a walk in the park is better than therapy!" or whatever, and if I were someone with chronic depression I'd be at the end of my rope because oh my god these people don't get it - and so to find a community of people who are saying "no, your brain IS broken," that would feel like a weird relief that "omigod FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT". It's a community of people who feel that they are alike in some way - and very likely are.
The tragedy seems to be, to me, that this community seems to value keeping each other down instead of working collectively to support each other and lift each other up. Not that I'm saying it would be easy to support each other - if you have a community of people who are all struggling, trying to take care of one's own self is hard enough, much less try to lift up those around you. But - from reading the article, it sounds like on the occasion someone does manage to pick themselves up a bit, the rest of the NEET community seems to try to pull them back down.
So - to my admittedly uneducated eyes, I think there's a difference here between the NEET community and those with depression. There's likely a Venn diagram, but I suspect it's only a partial overlap.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:43 PM on March 11, 2021 [23 favorites]
But I'm seeing a nuance in the article which, for me, is distinguishing this from depression, or how people with depression handle things. What I mean is - as I understand it - depression can often convince people that there is no hope, or that it is useless to try to seek help. I understand that simply trying to reach out when one is in the midst of depression can take a herculean effort.
The difference between that and the NEETs, as I understand the NEETs to be, is that people with depression (or even people without depression) may very well have been reaching out for support, but they found a community of people who are saying that "your depression is ABSOLVING YOU from trying to get help! Your brain is just broken and cannot ever be repaired, so fuck it!" That, to me, feels different - it is an EXTERNAL voice telling you "you have depression and it can't be fixed" rather than your own brain telling you that. It's a community of outsiders who are validating the voice of depression in your own brain.
And that feels different to me, somehow. It's not the depression in Sid's own head that makes him a NEET - it's the fact that the depression in Sid's own head is being echoed by Jake and Skeeter and Lucas and whoever.
And weirdly, now that I think of it, I can kind of see the appeal. Most of the rest of the world is so ham-handed when it comes to dealing with people who have depression - many of us stammer out some kind of overly-glib "stay positive, it'll get better!" thing or unthinkingly post memes about how "a walk in the park is better than therapy!" or whatever, and if I were someone with chronic depression I'd be at the end of my rope because oh my god these people don't get it - and so to find a community of people who are saying "no, your brain IS broken," that would feel like a weird relief that "omigod FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT". It's a community of people who feel that they are alike in some way - and very likely are.
The tragedy seems to be, to me, that this community seems to value keeping each other down instead of working collectively to support each other and lift each other up. Not that I'm saying it would be easy to support each other - if you have a community of people who are all struggling, trying to take care of one's own self is hard enough, much less try to lift up those around you. But - from reading the article, it sounds like on the occasion someone does manage to pick themselves up a bit, the rest of the NEET community seems to try to pull them back down.
So - to my admittedly uneducated eyes, I think there's a difference here between the NEET community and those with depression. There's likely a Venn diagram, but I suspect it's only a partial overlap.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:43 PM on March 11, 2021 [23 favorites]
I teach, and a certain percentage of students at all ages can’t do anything. They may or may not be very smart (often are at least somewhat intelligent), and they’re not defiant or proud or ... much of anything. They’re not even inept, just incapable of doing anything. Possibly depressed, I suppose. Often the parents are at wit’s end; their children are inert, just passengers. Yes, I have thought of Bartleby the Scrivener.
I wonder about them going into work situations, or even showing up.
It’s such a striking presentation (and again, it might be just depression — but for me, it feels different) that I wonder if a genetic switch has been thrown or not thrown. The “do something” impulse just isn’t there.
posted by argybarg at 4:00 PM on March 11, 2021 [13 favorites]
I wonder about them going into work situations, or even showing up.
It’s such a striking presentation (and again, it might be just depression — but for me, it feels different) that I wonder if a genetic switch has been thrown or not thrown. The “do something” impulse just isn’t there.
posted by argybarg at 4:00 PM on March 11, 2021 [13 favorites]
I think it would be good to be clear whether people are talking about NEET as the category or r/NEET the subreddit. They are very different things. [I also mostly heard the term in Japan until more recently, and it seems to have originated in the UK and be more widely used in Europe --- in the US maybe people mostly associate it with the reddit? Outside the US I've never heard it used the way it is being used here, but simply as a demographic identifier]
posted by thefoxgod at 4:08 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by thefoxgod at 4:08 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
How dare they deny moloch their surplus.
posted by Reyturner at 4:11 PM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Reyturner at 4:11 PM on March 11, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah the author should be held critically responsible for conflating the two, there is one paragraph in the piece where they talk about NEET as a generality as separate from r/NEET then in the next sentence contradict that, using a post in r/NEET as indicative of the general. And that kind of journalism is not helpful either because that's what drives and biases conversations. In fact basing a whole article on some sub (which I took a look at, it looks like a low/moderate traffic venting sub more than any allegation of "community") is itself a problematic approach, a narrow view on what the author admits is a large topic.
posted by polymodus at 4:17 PM on March 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 4:17 PM on March 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
It started in, like most shitty things on the Internet, chan culture
Wikipedia says the term is first used by the UK Government's Social Exclusion Unit, back in 1999.
posted by biffa at 4:59 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Wikipedia says the term is first used by the UK Government's Social Exclusion Unit, back in 1999.
posted by biffa at 4:59 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
Parklife!
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:11 PM on March 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:11 PM on March 11, 2021 [10 favorites]
"It's basically (mostly white) men who were told from birth they have a gender and/or racial hegemony along with a legacy and then realizing that there's no actual gender or racial solidarity but still have the expectations on their shoulders. Toxic masculinity makes you feel both entitled and powerless at the same time and it's what drives their sense of resentment. Some people get lucky, some pick themselves up and make the best of it, others just shut down. They're unable to cope with the societal pressure from all sides and the lack of support. This is on top of the societal wide expectations for men to not ask for help, along with large swaths of society showing open contempt for those that do. To put yourself in such a position of vulnerability as a man requires an extreme amount of courage that not every person will possess."
This is not only kind but tenderly and specifically accurate as to the unacceptable pressure placed on many of the male gender.
This "all sided pressure" most likely keeps many of these people in place. It's likely they have decision paralysis (not from opportunity, but from making the "wrong" decision), and it keeps them from moving forward, or moving at all.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:35 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
This is not only kind but tenderly and specifically accurate as to the unacceptable pressure placed on many of the male gender.
This "all sided pressure" most likely keeps many of these people in place. It's likely they have decision paralysis (not from opportunity, but from making the "wrong" decision), and it keeps them from moving forward, or moving at all.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:35 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
The distinction between "education" and "training" in the acronym, which I'd never heard before, is interesting.
My admittedly vague and unconfirmed by quick googling impression (from seeing the term outside of reddit) was that the original governmental usage of the acronym was derived from the different types and levels of benefits and aid available - if you're un- or partially employed while going to university you're eligible for certain programs, if you're the same while going to trade school (electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics, etc.) or doing on-the-job training for these kinds of jobs, you're eligible for different ones. Thus "NEET" as shorthand to describe the group who don't fit in the standard categories of considering the workforce as a whole.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:15 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
My admittedly vague and unconfirmed by quick googling impression (from seeing the term outside of reddit) was that the original governmental usage of the acronym was derived from the different types and levels of benefits and aid available - if you're un- or partially employed while going to university you're eligible for certain programs, if you're the same while going to trade school (electricians, plumbers, auto mechanics, etc.) or doing on-the-job training for these kinds of jobs, you're eligible for different ones. Thus "NEET" as shorthand to describe the group who don't fit in the standard categories of considering the workforce as a whole.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:15 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
So, are NEDs just NEETs that have achieved their final form, or are they separate tracks (real-world violence vs video-games in the basement)?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:16 PM on March 11, 2021
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:16 PM on March 11, 2021
The tragedy seems to be, to me, that this community seems to value keeping each other down instead of working collectively to support each other and lift each other up. Not that I'm saying it would be easy to support each other - if you have a community of people who are all struggling, trying to take care of one's own self is hard enough, much less try to lift up those around you. But - from reading the article, it sounds like on the occasion someone does manage to pick themselves up a bit, the rest of the NEET community seems to try to pull them back down.
Hope y'all are hungry for seafood, because that's a bucket of crabs.
The way a a small and nasty group of folks has taken over a subreddit and a culture, specifically from disabled folks, is paralleled with r/incel. I think I saw an article about that case on the blue last year, too tired to look it up at the moment. I hope disabled folks are creating and finding other, better communities to grow in.
related and cheerifying: a shrimp greentext (cw for slur). I love this guy! I am proud of his growth and know his shrimp are well taken care of. Whether or not you can extrapolate his experiences, seeing somebody "click into" a healthier, more grounded mindset is really beautiful.
posted by snerson at 8:16 PM on March 11, 2021 [4 favorites]
Its convenient we have this population of unpleasant Reddit douchebags to blame this problem on, otherwise we'd have to admit some seriously disgusting things about this society we've built
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:15 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:15 PM on March 11, 2021 [18 favorites]
Nobody Knows What to Do About NEETs
For the general term, not this subreddit thing, surely it's a robust welfare state that allows people in this position the security to reap the benefits of private enterprise (or even maybe get that education or training).
For the incels v2.0 described here? I dunno, maybe the first suggestion still applies.
posted by pompomtom at 10:56 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
For the general term, not this subreddit thing, surely it's a robust welfare state that allows people in this position the security to reap the benefits of private enterprise (or even maybe get that education or training).
For the incels v2.0 described here? I dunno, maybe the first suggestion still applies.
posted by pompomtom at 10:56 PM on March 11, 2021 [3 favorites]
"This "all sided pressure" most likely keeps many of these people in place. It's likely they have decision paralysis (not from opportunity, but from making the "wrong" decision), and it keeps them from moving forward, or moving at all."
Essentially with NEETs, we're looking at subgroups of people who won't move/operate, probably because they're concerned about disrupting a perceived class (or even tribal, depending on your perspective) or privileged state they may not even actually have (a NEET at rest, stays at rest). They're in an awkward position, where they won't receive wider empathy people may when they're truly in a rock/hard-place disposition, but that doesn't change their difficult subcategory.
It makes sense that a lot of these people 'socializing' (by interacting online) just sort of start to create a festering of human consciousness. (a la 4chan)
This is perceptive: "It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness. When you're unfulfilled, lonely, and you're getting endless obligations to be more and you're a failure if you're not...it's hard to foster gratitude, look outside yourself, and help others in need. Not saying it's good, just saying it's a thing."
It places the person in a "damned if you do, or don't," position, where most of the work they do is nearly guaranteed to just come from the expectation of doing work, with drastically different outcome or reward.. so.. the probably gravitate toward digressing, and empathizing with one another.
Doing work people perceive as valuable and connected is very different than working, "for the sake of work," or especially working while expecting people to take a negative or condescending attitude toward your labor (or you, personally). The latter is probably one of the biggest obstacles: It's difficult to motivate someone to help others, when it's almost automatically expected those others might disparage or disrespect where the help is coming from.
Comments are broad to reach both the general descriptor and the Reddit descriptor.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:35 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
Essentially with NEETs, we're looking at subgroups of people who won't move/operate, probably because they're concerned about disrupting a perceived class (or even tribal, depending on your perspective) or privileged state they may not even actually have (a NEET at rest, stays at rest). They're in an awkward position, where they won't receive wider empathy people may when they're truly in a rock/hard-place disposition, but that doesn't change their difficult subcategory.
It makes sense that a lot of these people 'socializing' (by interacting online) just sort of start to create a festering of human consciousness. (a la 4chan)
This is perceptive: "It's the unintentional selfishness of mental illness. When you're unfulfilled, lonely, and you're getting endless obligations to be more and you're a failure if you're not...it's hard to foster gratitude, look outside yourself, and help others in need. Not saying it's good, just saying it's a thing."
It places the person in a "damned if you do, or don't," position, where most of the work they do is nearly guaranteed to just come from the expectation of doing work, with drastically different outcome or reward.. so.. the probably gravitate toward digressing, and empathizing with one another.
Doing work people perceive as valuable and connected is very different than working, "for the sake of work," or especially working while expecting people to take a negative or condescending attitude toward your labor (or you, personally). The latter is probably one of the biggest obstacles: It's difficult to motivate someone to help others, when it's almost automatically expected those others might disparage or disrespect where the help is coming from.
Comments are broad to reach both the general descriptor and the Reddit descriptor.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:35 PM on March 11, 2021 [1 favorite]
"It's so frustrating seeing these discussions turn into an outpouring of sympathy for the poor depressed white boys with their subsidized lifestyles and their vitriolic hate of the people who deny them their due supremacy when no one seems to think that the huge trauma of so many everything-but-white boys growing up in this country justifies...well, any behavior deviating from the norm."
Yes, but if we can make these ..NEETs happy, perhaps they'll notice the substance in their own lives, and finally leave the others alone.
We are trying to shoo the supremacy away.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:47 PM on March 11, 2021
Yes, but if we can make these ..NEETs happy, perhaps they'll notice the substance in their own lives, and finally leave the others alone.
We are trying to shoo the supremacy away.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:47 PM on March 11, 2021
I think it would be good to be clear whether people are talking about NEET as the category or r/NEET the subreddit. They are very different things. [I also mostly heard the term in Japan until more recently, and it seems to have originated in the UK and be more widely used in Europe --- in the US maybe people mostly associate it with the reddit? Outside the US I've never heard it used the way it is being used here, but simply as a demographic identifier]
Yes, it's very confusing. In the UK context it is definitely just a demographic descriptor.
How dare they deny moloch their surplus.
Come on now. These are not people who are doing their best to minimise their interactions with extraction. What that looks like is burrowing into a work niche somewhere and arranging your life in such a way that your consumption is very low and therefore you can work very little. It's in many ways a rational and healthy thing to do but the people on this subreddit are going out of their way to live high-consumption lives that they extort from their families. If they were to decide that they preferred to work 10 hours a week and live with their parents, and their parents were ok with that, then that would be fine. I don't think that's what's going on.
posted by atrazine at 4:32 AM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yes, it's very confusing. In the UK context it is definitely just a demographic descriptor.
How dare they deny moloch their surplus.
Come on now. These are not people who are doing their best to minimise their interactions with extraction. What that looks like is burrowing into a work niche somewhere and arranging your life in such a way that your consumption is very low and therefore you can work very little. It's in many ways a rational and healthy thing to do but the people on this subreddit are going out of their way to live high-consumption lives that they extort from their families. If they were to decide that they preferred to work 10 hours a week and live with their parents, and their parents were ok with that, then that would be fine. I don't think that's what's going on.
posted by atrazine at 4:32 AM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
I probably had high NEET potential, but I got lucky. The minute I graduated high school, my mother's boyfriend made it clear he wanted me gone. Bam, the next week I was working at Little Caesar's Pizza with nothing but a few shirts and a bicycle.
If I'd had an indulgent middle-class family, I'd have been done for.
posted by Chronorin at 4:35 AM on March 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
If I'd had an indulgent middle-class family, I'd have been done for.
posted by Chronorin at 4:35 AM on March 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's interesting, in the UK, NEET is a long established, factual and I think non derogatory term that I've mainly seen used for young, disadvantaged people from poorer backgrounds - someone who has left school generally as soon as they can, can't find a job, don't want to study or don't meet entry criteria, and are on benefits.
I've just volunteered for a charity directed at NEET teenagers from disadvantaged backgrounds. They mentor the teenagers for the next step in their lives - getting into education/work/training etc, and need volunteers from professional backgrounds to act as interviewers at dummy job interviews. It helps build confidence and experience in coping with interviews and I think it's a great idea.
First interview was scheduled and the information pack said 'just to let you know, it's not uncommon to have no shows'. Sure enough, the guy didn't turn up, so it was rescheduled - and again, he didn't show up. Part of me was all 'huh, this guy is being offered help and he can't even be bothered to show up', but overall I just felt sorry for whatever is happening with this young man. I've put my name down for their next round of interviews, let's hope it goes a little better.
posted by ElasticParrot at 7:00 AM on March 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
I've just volunteered for a charity directed at NEET teenagers from disadvantaged backgrounds. They mentor the teenagers for the next step in their lives - getting into education/work/training etc, and need volunteers from professional backgrounds to act as interviewers at dummy job interviews. It helps build confidence and experience in coping with interviews and I think it's a great idea.
First interview was scheduled and the information pack said 'just to let you know, it's not uncommon to have no shows'. Sure enough, the guy didn't turn up, so it was rescheduled - and again, he didn't show up. Part of me was all 'huh, this guy is being offered help and he can't even be bothered to show up', but overall I just felt sorry for whatever is happening with this young man. I've put my name down for their next round of interviews, let's hope it goes a little better.
posted by ElasticParrot at 7:00 AM on March 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
I will say this.. Among the fears that keep me up at night is the question, What do we do with all these angry young men who have very little hope but an abundance of anger, resentment, and/or a misplaced sense of entitlement? I can't think of a worse situation.. there are so many vectors in society leading to toxic solutions for all this energy. We know all too well that some of these men will find the People Who Have the Answers.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:16 AM on March 12, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 7:16 AM on March 12, 2021 [9 favorites]
Affordable housing, basic income: a dignified way out of the rat race for those who cannot or choose not to run. It won't take care of all the white boys who were raised wrong, but it will help many of them, and a shitload of other people besides.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:28 AM on March 12, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:28 AM on March 12, 2021 [10 favorites]
What do we do with all these angry young men who have very little hope but an abundance of anger, resentment, and/or a misplaced sense of entitlement?
Direct them toward socialism.
posted by No Robots at 7:40 AM on March 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
Direct them toward socialism.
posted by No Robots at 7:40 AM on March 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
I was making active plans to kill myself at 27 because my failure to launch - as a result of mental illness and neurodivergence - clearly meant my life was worthless. And after all, I was an adult, wasn't I? I should be able to do this. Not being able to was, clearly, because I was basically wrong and broken and should die to make room for others. I did not invent this rhetoric whole-cloth to wound myself with. Someone taught it to me.
I am so thankful that you made it out of this place, a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist, that's a very dangerous place to be in. Just so that all in this thread understand the stakes here: six years ago, my sibling-in-law ended their life about three weeks after my wedding to their sister (only sibling). As best we can discern, it was because of a mindset similar to what you describe, above. (Compounding their feelings of alienation, they were very traditionally male-presenting but had come out as gender fluid and bisexual, so a whole lot of 'I'm not who I'm supposed to be' on top of the more basic toxic masculinity.) They were 27 years old.
It may not seem like it from the outside, but for many in this place, this particular struggle, it is life-or-death stakes.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:57 AM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
I am so thankful that you made it out of this place, a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist, that's a very dangerous place to be in. Just so that all in this thread understand the stakes here: six years ago, my sibling-in-law ended their life about three weeks after my wedding to their sister (only sibling). As best we can discern, it was because of a mindset similar to what you describe, above. (Compounding their feelings of alienation, they were very traditionally male-presenting but had come out as gender fluid and bisexual, so a whole lot of 'I'm not who I'm supposed to be' on top of the more basic toxic masculinity.) They were 27 years old.
It may not seem like it from the outside, but for many in this place, this particular struggle, it is life-or-death stakes.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:57 AM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
Its convenient we have this population of unpleasant Reddit douchebags to blame this problem on, otherwise we'd have to admit some seriously disgusting things about this society we've built
I mean, it might not be the seriously disgusting things you want to talk about, but wide spread misogyny is totally a disgusting thing about this society. I mean, they didn't get all these unpleasant views about certain stuff being beneath them all on their own.
Like, "Hey there's a real problem with men being depressed and not having a support network" and "the patriarchy has given men unrealistic expectations about how their life should be" aren't opposing views. And I say that as someone who is having mental and physical health problems, and someone who had unrealistic expectations about how my life as a straight cis white guy should have gone.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:59 AM on March 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
I mean, it might not be the seriously disgusting things you want to talk about, but wide spread misogyny is totally a disgusting thing about this society. I mean, they didn't get all these unpleasant views about certain stuff being beneath them all on their own.
Like, "Hey there's a real problem with men being depressed and not having a support network" and "the patriarchy has given men unrealistic expectations about how their life should be" aren't opposing views. And I say that as someone who is having mental and physical health problems, and someone who had unrealistic expectations about how my life as a straight cis white guy should have gone.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:59 AM on March 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
I think some subset of NEET or incel type characters look at the world, with its strife and toil and demands, and conclude, arguably with some justification, that they have little to offer that would make them somehow stand out and rise above the froth, so there's no real point in trying.
And some of what they're looking at, some of the challenges they're facing, can be attributed to structural or systemic socio-economic factors that entrench grossly unfair winner-takes-all distributions. And some of what they're seeing, some of what they're feeling or lacking in feeling, some of that may be depression or distortion due to mental illness. And it's easy to imagine these two aspects feeding into and off of each other.
And some of it might be grasped from a more general idea that Modernity has made life less meaningful for many. Capitalism doesn't really need you, and the pay is commensurate. God is not just dead but offline. Family with kids? In so far as that's an option, by definition it's not for incels.
And some of it is also just the universal human experience, with its ups and downs and follies and fumbles. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. So it's perhaps not wholly outrageous to look at the world as it appears, and see nothing but strenuous and ultimately futile effort. Which in and of itself, as a stark meditation on the human condition, could warrant some consideration.
The moral culpability comes about when you, in so considering, come to conclude that the real problem is not the fact of human suffering, but the fact that it is you who is suffering; that indeed matters would be fine, if somebody else were to suffer instead of you. Some subset of NEET or incel type characters aren't so much dissatisfied that the world is demanding as they are angry that it demands things of them — and perhaps even with the demands & responsibilities of morality as such.
posted by dmh at 8:24 AM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
And some of what they're looking at, some of the challenges they're facing, can be attributed to structural or systemic socio-economic factors that entrench grossly unfair winner-takes-all distributions. And some of what they're seeing, some of what they're feeling or lacking in feeling, some of that may be depression or distortion due to mental illness. And it's easy to imagine these two aspects feeding into and off of each other.
And some of it might be grasped from a more general idea that Modernity has made life less meaningful for many. Capitalism doesn't really need you, and the pay is commensurate. God is not just dead but offline. Family with kids? In so far as that's an option, by definition it's not for incels.
And some of it is also just the universal human experience, with its ups and downs and follies and fumbles. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. So it's perhaps not wholly outrageous to look at the world as it appears, and see nothing but strenuous and ultimately futile effort. Which in and of itself, as a stark meditation on the human condition, could warrant some consideration.
The moral culpability comes about when you, in so considering, come to conclude that the real problem is not the fact of human suffering, but the fact that it is you who is suffering; that indeed matters would be fine, if somebody else were to suffer instead of you. Some subset of NEET or incel type characters aren't so much dissatisfied that the world is demanding as they are angry that it demands things of them — and perhaps even with the demands & responsibilities of morality as such.
posted by dmh at 8:24 AM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
grossly unfair winner-takes-all distributions
I think a lot more people would be able to accept the situation if it really were winner take all. Instead they see people who don't do much beyond being born or otherwise lucking into a favorable circumstance being rewarded handsomely. Occasionally those people have useful skills beyond knowing people with money, but usually not.
We're told that a good idea and some hard work is all you need to be comfortable, but that is so far from reality it's no wonder that many people end up in severe psychological stress from the gaslighting and that a decent fraction of those lash out in response.
posted by wierdo at 8:40 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think a lot more people would be able to accept the situation if it really were winner take all. Instead they see people who don't do much beyond being born or otherwise lucking into a favorable circumstance being rewarded handsomely. Occasionally those people have useful skills beyond knowing people with money, but usually not.
We're told that a good idea and some hard work is all you need to be comfortable, but that is so far from reality it's no wonder that many people end up in severe psychological stress from the gaslighting and that a decent fraction of those lash out in response.
posted by wierdo at 8:40 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Its convenient we have this population of unpleasant Reddit douchebags to blame this problem on, otherwise we'd have to admit some seriously disgusting things about this society we've built"
Isn't that what reddit is for these days? Take all the suicidal NEET kids as a whole and they are hard to cast as enemies. Reddit carves them into small self-selected groups and then promotes the most extreme opinions within those groups. No matter who you are and what you believe you can find one to safely hate openly.
Pretending NEETs = white-male-incels-with-rich-parents is a great opportunity to get out some of your "those entitled brats need to grab some bootstraps" feelings for people who identify as someone who would never have those feelings. It would be way harder to do with the other NEET subreddits, full of leftist self-proclaimed SJWs who make jokes about guillotining the liberals who are aware of all this and still support and protect the system causing these problems so they can live comfortably.
posted by Infracanophile at 8:49 AM on March 12, 2021 [13 favorites]
Isn't that what reddit is for these days? Take all the suicidal NEET kids as a whole and they are hard to cast as enemies. Reddit carves them into small self-selected groups and then promotes the most extreme opinions within those groups. No matter who you are and what you believe you can find one to safely hate openly.
Pretending NEETs = white-male-incels-with-rich-parents is a great opportunity to get out some of your "those entitled brats need to grab some bootstraps" feelings for people who identify as someone who would never have those feelings. It would be way harder to do with the other NEET subreddits, full of leftist self-proclaimed SJWs who make jokes about guillotining the liberals who are aware of all this and still support and protect the system causing these problems so they can live comfortably.
posted by Infracanophile at 8:49 AM on March 12, 2021 [13 favorites]
What do we do with all these angry young men who have very little hope but an abundance of anger, resentment, and/or a misplaced sense of entitlement?
Direct them toward socialism.
They're still awful in leftist circles as well, unfortunately
posted by Think_Long at 9:12 AM on March 12, 2021 [9 favorites]
Direct them toward socialism.
They're still awful in leftist circles as well, unfortunately
posted by Think_Long at 9:12 AM on March 12, 2021 [9 favorites]
Discouraging, how this article about a global demographic turned into an article about an 'incel' sub-reddit. On the subject of idle young people, I'm reminded of this passage by Jerzy Kosinski, from his 1977 Blind Date novel:
- They drove through Beverly Hills on their way down to Sunset Boulevard, passing the lavish bungalows and sprawling villas. In minutes they were in Hollywood. Groups of haggard young men and women in shabby jeans, many barefoot, strolled aimlessly along the crowded sidewalks or lounged on the pavement. Vacant looks on their faces, they seemed to have little to say to each other, nothing to do, no place to go.
- "In other countries," said Woytek, "people like these would be starving, and they would join the Party to fight the rich. Here they're not hungry, so they have no need to join anything. They sleep through the day and in the evening they crawl out to the streets. I call them Crabs of Sunset. But they're not like nature's crabs, because Crabs of Sunset are out of balance with their world. I think they may be the missing link between man and robot.
- "Had California been an independent country, it would long ago have gone fascist - Left or Right, it wouldn't matter. For the Right, Crabs of Sunset would become the fuel for the draconian measures that would be used to get rid of them; for the Left, they would be the ignition for the revolution that would swallow them later. As it is, the State of California has become the embodiment of their mental state: neither Right nor Left, with no shape or direction, a giant amoeba."
^ without taking any time to process this excerpt, I have to say it lands hard. I have read The Painted Bird (too young at the time) and I will look for Blind Date. Thank you. And you are right, the NEET idea is an apt way to look at and describe a predicament.. the fact that this predicament also feeds into some abhorrent behaviours is worthy of mention, but does not need to be the default focus of attention.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:27 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 9:27 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
In the UK a popular genre of TV show for a while was one where investigators exposed benefits scroungers - usually people exaggerating or faking disabilities, and piling scorn on them. One show tried to be more high-minded by also showing "saints" along with the "scroungers", but the knock-on effect is that disabled people in public are regularly abused by being assumed to be scroungers.
Anyway this article is doing a great job manufacturing consent to have contempt for chronically unemployed people, just doing it for a liberal audience.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:41 AM on March 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
Anyway this article is doing a great job manufacturing consent to have contempt for chronically unemployed people, just doing it for a liberal audience.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:41 AM on March 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
I desperately wish someone, someone along the chain before he came to me, had told him that regardless of the extent of his mental illness, it did not make it acceptable for him to take it out on other people.
This (and really, the whole text of the surrounding comment) is really important.
I have known a number of NEETS (male and female) whose untreated mental illness is, without question, the core of the problem. Wrapped around said core is their misfortune to live in a society that tethers healthcare access to gainful employment, and that makes gainful employment difficult to obtain with untreated mental illness. That catch-22 is absolutely bad enough.
But then there's the next layer of the onion, which is that certain mental illnesses, in certain families, are treated as a pass for the sufferer to abuse and exploit others. It's worse when the person with mental illness is also, in some way, a "golden child" -- e.g., academically gifted, physically fragile, or born male in a culture that values sons over daughters. Said child never hears "no." Conflicts with others are always the other person's fault. Disappointments and rejections are conspiracies. Anything less than praise and adoration is an assault. Anything less than your dream career is beneath your dignity.
The lesson, reinforced over and over, is "everybody else has to consider your feelings, all the time, and you are not required to assume good faith if they intuit incorrectly; but your condition authorizes you to treat others however you wish, and they must assume good faith."
That conditioning makes it hard to hold down a job, but very easy to justify the rationale that someone else owes you a lifetime of material and emotional support. It's a surefire recipe for isolation and dependency. And it exacts an incalculable toll on the people who are expected to absorb the cost of it, and we will be criticized for any failure to absorb that cost with a smile. Let alone the fact that we might be dealing with our own disabilities, neuroatypicalities, mental health struggles, and so forth.
posted by armeowda at 9:49 AM on March 12, 2021 [15 favorites]
This (and really, the whole text of the surrounding comment) is really important.
I have known a number of NEETS (male and female) whose untreated mental illness is, without question, the core of the problem. Wrapped around said core is their misfortune to live in a society that tethers healthcare access to gainful employment, and that makes gainful employment difficult to obtain with untreated mental illness. That catch-22 is absolutely bad enough.
But then there's the next layer of the onion, which is that certain mental illnesses, in certain families, are treated as a pass for the sufferer to abuse and exploit others. It's worse when the person with mental illness is also, in some way, a "golden child" -- e.g., academically gifted, physically fragile, or born male in a culture that values sons over daughters. Said child never hears "no." Conflicts with others are always the other person's fault. Disappointments and rejections are conspiracies. Anything less than praise and adoration is an assault. Anything less than your dream career is beneath your dignity.
The lesson, reinforced over and over, is "everybody else has to consider your feelings, all the time, and you are not required to assume good faith if they intuit incorrectly; but your condition authorizes you to treat others however you wish, and they must assume good faith."
That conditioning makes it hard to hold down a job, but very easy to justify the rationale that someone else owes you a lifetime of material and emotional support. It's a surefire recipe for isolation and dependency. And it exacts an incalculable toll on the people who are expected to absorb the cost of it, and we will be criticized for any failure to absorb that cost with a smile. Let alone the fact that we might be dealing with our own disabilities, neuroatypicalities, mental health struggles, and so forth.
posted by armeowda at 9:49 AM on March 12, 2021 [15 favorites]
I'd just like to thank the people with the knowledge, experience, and training that I lack for coming into what could have been a shitshow of a thread and gently but firmly re-railing it. cheers.
posted by some loser at 9:57 AM on March 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by some loser at 9:57 AM on March 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
In the UK a popular genre of TV show for a while was one where investigators exposed benefits scroungers - usually people exaggerating or faking disabilities, and piling scorn on them.
I've always found it very weird how much scorn is piled on benefits "scroungers" while so little is piled on the passive investor class. Neither is exchanging anything for their income; why do we so completely fail to treat them as morally equivalent?
posted by flabdablet at 9:57 AM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
I've always found it very weird how much scorn is piled on benefits "scroungers" while so little is piled on the passive investor class. Neither is exchanging anything for their income; why do we so completely fail to treat them as morally equivalent?
posted by flabdablet at 9:57 AM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
People on benefits don't have friends that commission and review tv shows.
posted by atrazine at 10:05 AM on March 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by atrazine at 10:05 AM on March 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
Direct them toward socialism.
Yes, please compose your political movement from individuals known primarily for their inefficacy and mooching.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:08 AM on March 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
Yes, please compose your political movement from individuals known primarily for their inefficacy and mooching.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:08 AM on March 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
Discouraging, how this article about a global demographic turned into an article about an 'incel' sub-reddit.
Did you read the article? It is pretty squarely focused on the subreddit and it's culture, far more so than the broad global phenomenon of NEETS. There's discussions of moderating decisions, several examples of popular memes, and all quotations are drawn from the subreddit.
posted by skewed at 10:11 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Did you read the article? It is pretty squarely focused on the subreddit and it's culture, far more so than the broad global phenomenon of NEETS. There's discussions of moderating decisions, several examples of popular memes, and all quotations are drawn from the subreddit.
posted by skewed at 10:11 AM on March 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Neither is exchanging anything for their income; why do we so completely fail to treat them as morally equivalent?
Because there's an ambient belief in the inherent virtue of money-- what determines whether you're a productive member of society is not what you do but how much you're paid for it.
posted by Pyry at 10:27 AM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
Because there's an ambient belief in the inherent virtue of money-- what determines whether you're a productive member of society is not what you do but how much you're paid for it.
posted by Pyry at 10:27 AM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
Yes, please compose your political movement from individuals known primarily for their inefficacy and mooching.
The idea is to inspire them toward a life of altruism. "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air nests: but the son of man hath not where to lay his head."
posted by No Robots at 11:20 AM on March 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
The idea is to inspire them toward a life of altruism. "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air nests: but the son of man hath not where to lay his head."
posted by No Robots at 11:20 AM on March 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
Praemunire, you so often write valuable and insightful comments that it shocked me how very, very off-base you were here, and then to see you double down on your mistake was disheartening.
You were very presumptuous about what mentally ill people can necessairly do, both emotionally and financially. This in particular infuriates me:
"At twenty-seven, not to take steps to build your own life, starting with therapy if necessary, is a choice."
1. Therapy is fucking expensive. Even people with supposedly decent health insurance often don't get mental health care, or it's very limited or downright bad.
There is a myth among some people that therapy is just out there for the taking, and in the US it is most emphatically not, not unless you are rich.
2. People who are depressed are often not capable of doing the strenuous, organized amount of work it would take to advocate for themselves to get therapy.
I know these things because I am a depressed person, and have tried to help depressed friends. I have very vivid memories of trying to help a suicidally depressed ex find help. No go. The few therapists that were sliding scale were all full. This is in a major city. I made call after call after call. It literally took a suicide attempt that left scars in order for him to get any help at all, and even that was minimal and short lived.
I also worked as a residential assistant for the mentally ill when I was young. The back stories of the people who finally eventually found care usually included extreme and dangerous situations, such as prolonged homelessness and multiple suicide attempts.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:34 AM on March 12, 2021 [12 favorites]
You were very presumptuous about what mentally ill people can necessairly do, both emotionally and financially. This in particular infuriates me:
"At twenty-seven, not to take steps to build your own life, starting with therapy if necessary, is a choice."
1. Therapy is fucking expensive. Even people with supposedly decent health insurance often don't get mental health care, or it's very limited or downright bad.
There is a myth among some people that therapy is just out there for the taking, and in the US it is most emphatically not, not unless you are rich.
2. People who are depressed are often not capable of doing the strenuous, organized amount of work it would take to advocate for themselves to get therapy.
I know these things because I am a depressed person, and have tried to help depressed friends. I have very vivid memories of trying to help a suicidally depressed ex find help. No go. The few therapists that were sliding scale were all full. This is in a major city. I made call after call after call. It literally took a suicide attempt that left scars in order for him to get any help at all, and even that was minimal and short lived.
I also worked as a residential assistant for the mentally ill when I was young. The back stories of the people who finally eventually found care usually included extreme and dangerous situations, such as prolonged homelessness and multiple suicide attempts.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 11:34 AM on March 12, 2021 [12 favorites]
I don't really feel like the article paints an accurate picture of the subreddit. Going on there it's people seeking emotional support / advice. A lot of people are looking for jobs. About a third of the posters on the sub identify "health reasons" as the primary reason for their NEET-dom. In addition to experiencing depression, a huge proportion seem to be on the autism spectrum. TBH while there is toxicity on the sub, the original linked article seems to mostly be attacking mentally ill, neurodivergent, poor people and I kind of wish we could just nuke this whole thread and re-frame the conversation more productively.
posted by phoenixy at 11:59 AM on March 12, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by phoenixy at 11:59 AM on March 12, 2021 [8 favorites]
As with critiques of "choice feminism" it is important always to remember that no choices in this world are made unconstrained within a vacuum. Someone who isn't "building their life" whatever tf that means at 27 may be making a choice but it's foolish to assume that choice is a free or meaningful one.
Is it likely that a lot of the people profiled in this particular subreddit probably have freer or less constrained choices than most? Yeah, probably. But the constraints of mental illness are often invisible and we don't empathize very well with what we can't see.
Not to say that I don't understand the anger toward a bunch of misogynist white dudes ordering their moms around and complaining. Of course I do. More than once in my life, which is both woman-identified and middle-aged, I've noted that the men in my circles feel much more able/entitled/inclined to "drop out" for awhile than the women do and that seems pretty fucked up.
But I spent the first two-ish years after college in a kind of failure-to-launch space that was a combo of depression, recession, and burnout, and I am 99% certain that I was a turbo-shithead to be around. I mean I did the dishes and I cleaned the house and I took (with some grumbling) the terrible jobs and all, yeah. But I also...just sat down a lot. And was very trapped and bitter and angry.
It's fuckin' lethal, and you get really locked into the idea that unless 30 good things happen at once, this will be your life forever. In reality, it takes about ~3 good things at once. But those 3 things are hard to come by in this society. This realization is what forged my lifelong commitment to socialism or, failing that, a strong progressive safety net within capitalism, but I had an educational background that primed me for those ideas.
In short yes, direct these young men to socialism, because they're not (all) ineffective on purpose.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:04 PM on March 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
Is it likely that a lot of the people profiled in this particular subreddit probably have freer or less constrained choices than most? Yeah, probably. But the constraints of mental illness are often invisible and we don't empathize very well with what we can't see.
Not to say that I don't understand the anger toward a bunch of misogynist white dudes ordering their moms around and complaining. Of course I do. More than once in my life, which is both woman-identified and middle-aged, I've noted that the men in my circles feel much more able/entitled/inclined to "drop out" for awhile than the women do and that seems pretty fucked up.
But I spent the first two-ish years after college in a kind of failure-to-launch space that was a combo of depression, recession, and burnout, and I am 99% certain that I was a turbo-shithead to be around. I mean I did the dishes and I cleaned the house and I took (with some grumbling) the terrible jobs and all, yeah. But I also...just sat down a lot. And was very trapped and bitter and angry.
It's fuckin' lethal, and you get really locked into the idea that unless 30 good things happen at once, this will be your life forever. In reality, it takes about ~3 good things at once. But those 3 things are hard to come by in this society. This realization is what forged my lifelong commitment to socialism or, failing that, a strong progressive safety net within capitalism, but I had an educational background that primed me for those ideas.
In short yes, direct these young men to socialism, because they're not (all) ineffective on purpose.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:04 PM on March 12, 2021 [11 favorites]
I'm not sure why we're assuming all these people with problematic attitudes have debilitating mental illness, without even talking to them directly let alone getting an evaluation from a qualified professional. Sure there's some overlap, but there are absolutely people without severe mental illnesses who make a choice not to do anything useful in the world, and countless people who have various mental illnesses and get shit done anyway. It's not fair to assume everyone who behaves unusually or distastefully is doing it because of mental illness.
It would be interesting to know how concentrating people like this into a subreddit echo chamber has affected their attitudes and actions over time, since it doesn't sound like the subreddit accurately reflects the larger population of NEETs.
posted by randomnity at 12:07 PM on March 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
It would be interesting to know how concentrating people like this into a subreddit echo chamber has affected their attitudes and actions over time, since it doesn't sound like the subreddit accurately reflects the larger population of NEETs.
posted by randomnity at 12:07 PM on March 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
The idea is to inspire them toward a life of altruism. "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air nests: but the son of man hath not where to lay his head."
I don't even know where to begin with with this one.
I'm not sure why we're assuming all these people with problematic attitudes have debilitating mental illness, without even talking to them directly let alone getting an evaluation from a qualified professional.
Yes, I think this is a weird kind of derail to focus on mental illness, and /or pure assholery, as that can be argued over forever. When the line between incel/NEET asshole and mental illness is pretty much indistinguishable to all but the professional, there's only so much to talk about.
posted by 2N2222 at 12:57 PM on March 12, 2021
I don't even know where to begin with with this one.
I'm not sure why we're assuming all these people with problematic attitudes have debilitating mental illness, without even talking to them directly let alone getting an evaluation from a qualified professional.
Yes, I think this is a weird kind of derail to focus on mental illness, and /or pure assholery, as that can be argued over forever. When the line between incel/NEET asshole and mental illness is pretty much indistinguishable to all but the professional, there's only so much to talk about.
posted by 2N2222 at 12:57 PM on March 12, 2021
I don't even know where to begin with with this one.
You might start with my post, "Kabbalah and Communism."
posted by No Robots at 1:02 PM on March 12, 2021
You might start with my post, "Kabbalah and Communism."
posted by No Robots at 1:02 PM on March 12, 2021
but there are absolutely people without severe mental illnesses who make a choice not to do anything useful in the world
Well of course but everyone already assumes that. The first presumption of someone who is doing nothing useful is that they're doing it on purpose and are completely capable if only they didn't suck.
Folks bringing mental illness into the thread are trying to counterbalance that all-but-universal assumption and asking that people consider a whole two possible explanations for someone who has stopped trying to participate in the world.
It's not fair to assume everyone who behaves unusually or distastefully is doing it because of mental illness.
How is it less fair than assuming everyone who behaves that way is doing it out of spite and shitheadery? Maybe we could just, you know, make it easier for people to live in general, whether or not we find them personally meritorious, and see how things shake out in the wash.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:05 PM on March 12, 2021 [15 favorites]
Well of course but everyone already assumes that. The first presumption of someone who is doing nothing useful is that they're doing it on purpose and are completely capable if only they didn't suck.
Folks bringing mental illness into the thread are trying to counterbalance that all-but-universal assumption and asking that people consider a whole two possible explanations for someone who has stopped trying to participate in the world.
It's not fair to assume everyone who behaves unusually or distastefully is doing it because of mental illness.
How is it less fair than assuming everyone who behaves that way is doing it out of spite and shitheadery? Maybe we could just, you know, make it easier for people to live in general, whether or not we find them personally meritorious, and see how things shake out in the wash.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:05 PM on March 12, 2021 [15 favorites]
Speaking about these people as a monolithic group is misleading. Some of them match whatever statement you've made, many of them don't - treating any group as homogeneous is a huge problem, and it's difficult to talk about something like this without doing so.
posted by amtho at 2:04 PM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by amtho at 2:04 PM on March 12, 2021 [6 favorites]
Also this whole discussion has premised this false binary of mental illness (or depression) or not, a binary that even psychologists reject. Modern psychology (when at its best and not regressing to scientism) wholly acknowledges the bio-psycho-sociological philosophy in part because it is a theory that doesn't implicitly pathologize (and thereby stigmatize) human beings into two categories, and then tries to be all judgmental about their situation, like how psychology itself used to be like.
posted by polymodus at 3:42 PM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 3:42 PM on March 12, 2021 [7 favorites]
Ya gotta hand it to "MEL’s resident tank-top dirtbag, shitposter and meme expert"for taking an institutional social problem and focusing everybody's attention on a small segment of those affected by it, like the entire thing is their fault. And not(say) the corporations making millions on distracting that small segment and squeezing every extra cent out of the economy.
posted by StarkRoads at 6:01 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by StarkRoads at 6:01 PM on March 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
NEETs are people who don't work because someone enables this. Reading comments here, and from my own experience, this doesn't make them happy or content, where working, getting out of the house even if virtually, earning a wage, being around some other people, tends to make people happier. Portland, Maine has been a refugee gateway town since at least the 70s. Cultures vary, but watching refugees arrive in the US, struggle to get oriented, then work at any jobs has been educational. They're doing this so they can help their families in camps in Africa, or hoping to bring family to the US, or trying to make a life for their children. Motivation, goals. They are from such dire circumstances that they will take pretty low wages for quite hard work, though as they learn the system, they move on from those jobs.
Millennials signaled that the lack of adequate wages and benefits is killing motivation. Get a low wage job with no status or respect, you'll probably still have to live at home, at best, you can pay a car loan and buy amenities. It feels like toxic clinical ennui. The rich hoover up all the money and lead well-documented lives of fun, material goods in absurd excess, travel, multiple homes, and you feel like you won't ever have a house unless the parents leave you money when they die, but they might get cancer and spend everything. Advertising, esp. the influencer variety, pushes so much Stuff, and you know that you can buy that Chanel bag at Goodwill but you aren't even on the Materialism Ladder, you're a bystander.
These Reddit NEETs are unappealing, but they sure seem like a symptom of underlying disease. I'm old enough to collect Soc. Sec. and I'm Not in (meaningful) Employment, Education or Training, and it's really clear that, though the economy has worker shortages, we are Undesirables, so I have some compassion for these slackers. Pretty sure their ranks will grow unless workers are rewarded enough to make work decent and worthwhile.
posted by theora55 at 7:02 AM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Millennials signaled that the lack of adequate wages and benefits is killing motivation. Get a low wage job with no status or respect, you'll probably still have to live at home, at best, you can pay a car loan and buy amenities. It feels like toxic clinical ennui. The rich hoover up all the money and lead well-documented lives of fun, material goods in absurd excess, travel, multiple homes, and you feel like you won't ever have a house unless the parents leave you money when they die, but they might get cancer and spend everything. Advertising, esp. the influencer variety, pushes so much Stuff, and you know that you can buy that Chanel bag at Goodwill but you aren't even on the Materialism Ladder, you're a bystander.
These Reddit NEETs are unappealing, but they sure seem like a symptom of underlying disease. I'm old enough to collect Soc. Sec. and I'm Not in (meaningful) Employment, Education or Training, and it's really clear that, though the economy has worker shortages, we are Undesirables, so I have some compassion for these slackers. Pretty sure their ranks will grow unless workers are rewarded enough to make work decent and worthwhile.
posted by theora55 at 7:02 AM on March 15, 2021 [5 favorites]
Quite a popular post here, I see that the concept of NEET creates a lot of conversation. It's new to me in nomenclature, but decades old in recognization:
In My Ishmael I recounted the life of a young man named Jeffrey, loosely based on Paul Eppinger, whose journal was published by his father under the title Restless Mind Quiet Thoughts. Jeffrey was attractive, intelligent, personable, and multitalented, but he couldn’t find anything he wanted to do, other than hang out with friends, write in his journal, and play the guitar. His friends were forever urging him to find a direction, get some ambition, and care about something, but of course none of these things can be done at will. He came to believe his friends when they told him he was unusual—peculiar, even—in his aimlessness. In the end, despairing of finding the purposefulness that seems to come so easily to others, he quietly and without fuss took his own life.
I wasn’t surprised to hear from many youngsters who feel exactly like Jeffrey, who know the world is full of things they should want to do—and who imagine that there must be something dreadfully wrong with them for failing to want it. Because I’ve taken the trouble to study cultures different from our own, I know there’s nothing innately human about wanting to “make something” of yourself or to “get ahead” or to have a career, a profession, or a vocation. Notions like these are foreign to most aboriginal peoples, who seem perfectly content to live just the way Jeffrey wanted to live—and why shouldn’t they be? (Daniel Quinn, "Beyond Civilization", 1997)
The difference is that online identity and meme culture creates dogmatism about what is and what isn't X (e.g. NEET). By doing so, you can charge this online community of misogyny and incel-ism—but wouldn't you rather be interested in the root cause of this identity rather than just finding a new way to knock it down? The author of the article does not care about what to do with NEETs, they just wanted to apply their theories of toxic masculinity and misogyny on another alienated group.
A castaway in the middle of an ocean sees a ship pass by and waves desperately; the ship's captain looks down on the castaway and shouts, "Get a boat!"
posted by oneboiledfrog at 8:39 AM on March 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
In My Ishmael I recounted the life of a young man named Jeffrey, loosely based on Paul Eppinger, whose journal was published by his father under the title Restless Mind Quiet Thoughts. Jeffrey was attractive, intelligent, personable, and multitalented, but he couldn’t find anything he wanted to do, other than hang out with friends, write in his journal, and play the guitar. His friends were forever urging him to find a direction, get some ambition, and care about something, but of course none of these things can be done at will. He came to believe his friends when they told him he was unusual—peculiar, even—in his aimlessness. In the end, despairing of finding the purposefulness that seems to come so easily to others, he quietly and without fuss took his own life.
I wasn’t surprised to hear from many youngsters who feel exactly like Jeffrey, who know the world is full of things they should want to do—and who imagine that there must be something dreadfully wrong with them for failing to want it. Because I’ve taken the trouble to study cultures different from our own, I know there’s nothing innately human about wanting to “make something” of yourself or to “get ahead” or to have a career, a profession, or a vocation. Notions like these are foreign to most aboriginal peoples, who seem perfectly content to live just the way Jeffrey wanted to live—and why shouldn’t they be? (Daniel Quinn, "Beyond Civilization", 1997)
The difference is that online identity and meme culture creates dogmatism about what is and what isn't X (e.g. NEET). By doing so, you can charge this online community of misogyny and incel-ism—but wouldn't you rather be interested in the root cause of this identity rather than just finding a new way to knock it down? The author of the article does not care about what to do with NEETs, they just wanted to apply their theories of toxic masculinity and misogyny on another alienated group.
A castaway in the middle of an ocean sees a ship pass by and waves desperately; the ship's captain looks down on the castaway and shouts, "Get a boat!"
posted by oneboiledfrog at 8:39 AM on March 20, 2021 [2 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
So, like, why? What is there to buy into?
It's medieval lords taxing peasants within an inch of their lives and taking their harvest then wondering why they don't seem as lively as they used to.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 10:09 AM on March 11, 2021 [178 favorites]