I feel like my rage might eat me alive.
March 17, 2021 11:55 AM Subscribe
Dear EMSTBC, No one is taking care of you, and it hurts. Normally I’d start with something much more empowering than that. Because most of us don’t have anyone taking care of us! We don’t each get our own private Mommy who listens and empathizes and makes things better. Hell, many of us don’t even get that when we’re babies.
But you know what? It’s still so sad to feel like you’re completely on your own. And when you’re enraged, sometimes that’s just the sadness of needing so much that you don’t have.
Ok. This is good, but I sort of wish she had addressed the infuriating job issue. (Or maybe there is nothing to discuss since it is done.)
posted by Glinn at 12:11 PM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Glinn at 12:11 PM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
This was good. I'm in Polly's phase of life now and this is definitely the advice I would give me 15 years ago. As for the job thing, I don't know what the solution to that is other than to walk away as soon as you are able.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:15 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:15 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
"I had no idea anyone had a husband who answered a crying call and took it seriously and did something to help"
Yikes - I'm divorced and I would never claim to be the perfect partner but this seems like an incredibly low bar. I do more than that for people I barely know. At least it inspired her to get out.
posted by allegedly at 12:23 PM on March 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
Yikes - I'm divorced and I would never claim to be the perfect partner but this seems like an incredibly low bar. I do more than that for people I barely know. At least it inspired her to get out.
posted by allegedly at 12:23 PM on March 17, 2021 [8 favorites]
I also don't understand the need to have someone take care of you? In a partner it's nice when it's light, but, independence is a virtue?
I have so far never met anyone more emotionally independent than I am and yet let me tell you, if I enter into a partnership they better fucking want to take care of me, and me him.
So far no one I've ever dated has met the bar of I want to care for them and they want to care for me at the same very high amount. Sure there have been guys I've felt that way about, and I know I've dated guys who have felt that way about me, but it's never been mutual. And so I remain happily uncoupled, because I am doing just fine own. A partner should enhance the security I feel, not detract from it. There was a comment in a recent ask thread that hit this perfectly, IMO: You can find lots of things outside the relationship - fascinating conversation, aligned hobbies, social fun, even sex if you negotiate it - but to me, being your primary source of emotional comfort is what relationships are FOR.
posted by phunniemee at 12:36 PM on March 17, 2021 [43 favorites]
I have so far never met anyone more emotionally independent than I am and yet let me tell you, if I enter into a partnership they better fucking want to take care of me, and me him.
So far no one I've ever dated has met the bar of I want to care for them and they want to care for me at the same very high amount. Sure there have been guys I've felt that way about, and I know I've dated guys who have felt that way about me, but it's never been mutual. And so I remain happily uncoupled, because I am doing just fine own. A partner should enhance the security I feel, not detract from it. There was a comment in a recent ask thread that hit this perfectly, IMO: You can find lots of things outside the relationship - fascinating conversation, aligned hobbies, social fun, even sex if you negotiate it - but to me, being your primary source of emotional comfort is what relationships are FOR.
posted by phunniemee at 12:36 PM on March 17, 2021 [43 favorites]
I appreciate this response. I've always thought "care for yourself, before adopting a partner (because you literally cannot do one without the other, first)" I think I've watched some dependent relationships.
This lady (Cut) sounds like she has had a time.
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:42 PM on March 17, 2021
This lady (Cut) sounds like she has had a time.
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:42 PM on March 17, 2021
I think the answer says it really clearly:
I had no idea people even lived that way: taking care of each other, falling apart and not feeling ashamed of it, trusting each other in their most vulnerable moments.
Does that sound fantastical to you, too? Because if it does, something needs to change. Obviously not everyone has a job where they can drop everything and come to your aid. But you should at least feel like you’re with someone who wants to help you whenever they can. This world is rotten, but love is everything and it’s also everywhere, waiting for you to call its name. We need each other. We rely on each other. Joy is knowing that, trusting it, standing up for it, living it.
It's not so much about "taking care" as just care, real actual deep intimate investment in the feelings and well-being of another human being. Sometimes that does manifest as taking turns handling hard shit when the other person needs it, and it's not a flaw to need it or to provide it.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:44 PM on March 17, 2021 [34 favorites]
I had no idea people even lived that way: taking care of each other, falling apart and not feeling ashamed of it, trusting each other in their most vulnerable moments.
Does that sound fantastical to you, too? Because if it does, something needs to change. Obviously not everyone has a job where they can drop everything and come to your aid. But you should at least feel like you’re with someone who wants to help you whenever they can. This world is rotten, but love is everything and it’s also everywhere, waiting for you to call its name. We need each other. We rely on each other. Joy is knowing that, trusting it, standing up for it, living it.
It's not so much about "taking care" as just care, real actual deep intimate investment in the feelings and well-being of another human being. Sometimes that does manifest as taking turns handling hard shit when the other person needs it, and it's not a flaw to need it or to provide it.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:44 PM on March 17, 2021 [34 favorites]
Agree it isn't a flaw to need or prove it. Ultimately people should have balance (at least in common partners :)
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:50 PM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:50 PM on March 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
I also don't understand the need to have someone take care of you? In a partner it's nice when it's light, but, independence is a virtue?
For some of us, independence is a lot of what we've known - it's our coping mechanism, our pride, and our crutch. For most of my life I've done exactly what Polly said she did - just tell yourself that you have to work harder, be better.
I'm the child of immigrants to the US, and as we were growing up, I was consistently aware of the many stressors my single mom faced - so I increasingly kept more of my own issues to myself. She was taking care of me, clothing, feeding, sheltering me - but I felt deeply responsible for not making her more upset, and also deeply responsible for becoming happy and successful, and make her stress "worthwhile." Aside from these feelings, I also had to be relatively independent because my mom was at work all the time.
I'm fairly proud of this independence, but it's a difficult way to live and can set up some bad thought-patterns in my head - independence can become responsibility, and can turn into "I don't trust anybody else to do this" and "I'm all alone."
Just like Polly & the letter writer, I can find myself completely overwhelmed and angry at the world, because I feel personally responsible for everything. "Independence" can quickly become - I'm responsible for everything, because I can't trust anybody else.
I've been doing a lot of the work the letter writer said to heal some of these aspects in myself - ask for help, set boundaries, don't be furious at people because they didn't think about your needs (I didn't share what they were, after all).
In short I love Polly's response and I think that she illuminates how important taking care of yourself is, and how it can actually make you better equipped to be "independent" and live the life that you want.
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 1:22 PM on March 17, 2021 [23 favorites]
For some of us, independence is a lot of what we've known - it's our coping mechanism, our pride, and our crutch. For most of my life I've done exactly what Polly said she did - just tell yourself that you have to work harder, be better.
I'm the child of immigrants to the US, and as we were growing up, I was consistently aware of the many stressors my single mom faced - so I increasingly kept more of my own issues to myself. She was taking care of me, clothing, feeding, sheltering me - but I felt deeply responsible for not making her more upset, and also deeply responsible for becoming happy and successful, and make her stress "worthwhile." Aside from these feelings, I also had to be relatively independent because my mom was at work all the time.
I'm fairly proud of this independence, but it's a difficult way to live and can set up some bad thought-patterns in my head - independence can become responsibility, and can turn into "I don't trust anybody else to do this" and "I'm all alone."
Just like Polly & the letter writer, I can find myself completely overwhelmed and angry at the world, because I feel personally responsible for everything. "Independence" can quickly become - I'm responsible for everything, because I can't trust anybody else.
I've been doing a lot of the work the letter writer said to heal some of these aspects in myself - ask for help, set boundaries, don't be furious at people because they didn't think about your needs (I didn't share what they were, after all).
In short I love Polly's response and I think that she illuminates how important taking care of yourself is, and how it can actually make you better equipped to be "independent" and live the life that you want.
posted by Drowsy Philosopher at 1:22 PM on March 17, 2021 [23 favorites]
Also, I'm sorry but LOL. "I’d get into bed at night and my boyfriend would be putting Carmex on his lips, which he did every night, and the smell of Carmex was like the smell of dread to me. I’d stare at the ceiling and think, “I hate this. I have to break up with him.” But somehow, by the next morning, I was back to resolving to try harder, be nicer, work more." Thine lips be a deal breaker.
The response she receives sounds on. Nice columnists at the Cut.
"You haven’t told me that much about your boyfriend, so I don’t want to jump to conclusions about your relationship. I just want you to understand one thing right now: You’re working too hard and you’re too hard on yourself. That’s where the rage comes from. You’re angry because you believe, deep down, that the problem is you, but you also know that the problem is not you.
And you’re right: The problem is not you. You deserve to have strong connections with people who believe in mutual care and concern. You deserve more than what you’re getting right now."
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:22 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
The response she receives sounds on. Nice columnists at the Cut.
"You haven’t told me that much about your boyfriend, so I don’t want to jump to conclusions about your relationship. I just want you to understand one thing right now: You’re working too hard and you’re too hard on yourself. That’s where the rage comes from. You’re angry because you believe, deep down, that the problem is you, but you also know that the problem is not you.
And you’re right: The problem is not you. You deserve to have strong connections with people who believe in mutual care and concern. You deserve more than what you’re getting right now."
posted by firstdaffodils at 1:22 PM on March 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
I also don't understand the need to have someone take care of you? In a partner it's nice when it's light, but, independence is a virtue?
One of the most fundamental aspects of my 22+ year marriage is that we have each other's backs. If he's hurting or needs something, I'll be doing whatever is welcome to try to help. ("Whatever is welcome" because if he's hurting because of a migraine, no interaction would be welcome or helpful.) And when I've been desperately ill (norovirus is the worst) he's taken care of me with zero drama or expectation of payback. He's also rescued me from situations of my own creation (example: after a holiday lunch where the organizer said "we haven't met the catering minimum, we need to get more wine" when I couldn't get myself home from the BART station) and never teased me or made me feel bad about it afterwards.
Years ago a friend introduced us to the idea of "Team Us". There's him, there's me, and there's the team. It's important to care for all three and make sure each has what's needed.
I can't imagine having a partner who I didn't trust implicitly to step up to care for me if I needed it.
posted by Lexica at 2:35 PM on March 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
One of the most fundamental aspects of my 22+ year marriage is that we have each other's backs. If he's hurting or needs something, I'll be doing whatever is welcome to try to help. ("Whatever is welcome" because if he's hurting because of a migraine, no interaction would be welcome or helpful.) And when I've been desperately ill (norovirus is the worst) he's taken care of me with zero drama or expectation of payback. He's also rescued me from situations of my own creation (example: after a holiday lunch where the organizer said "we haven't met the catering minimum, we need to get more wine" when I couldn't get myself home from the BART station) and never teased me or made me feel bad about it afterwards.
Years ago a friend introduced us to the idea of "Team Us". There's him, there's me, and there's the team. It's important to care for all three and make sure each has what's needed.
I can't imagine having a partner who I didn't trust implicitly to step up to care for me if I needed it.
posted by Lexica at 2:35 PM on March 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
I'm a very autonomy-minded person, too autonomy-minded, I think, to ever marry, but I make it a point to try to cultivate these types of relationships with close friends. And we do show up for each other, but I was just saying the other day to one of them that the one element missing from single bliss is the opportunity on just a day-to-day, casual basis to take care of someone you love or be cared for in return. If I were to marry, I certainly would expect my partner to support me emotionally!
posted by praemunire at 2:50 PM on March 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:50 PM on March 17, 2021 [9 favorites]
I also don't understand the need to have someone take care of you? In a partner it's nice when it's light, but, independence is a virtue?
I am a super independent person, and I value it highly.
But... I also watched my elderly parents go through the aging and dying process. That happens to all of us. Debilitating illness and decrepitude are inevitable, unless you're unlucky enough to die young and suddenly. I don't care how independent you are; you should not -- and most likely will not want to-- go through that alone.
posted by mikeand1 at 3:07 PM on March 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
I am a super independent person, and I value it highly.
But... I also watched my elderly parents go through the aging and dying process. That happens to all of us. Debilitating illness and decrepitude are inevitable, unless you're unlucky enough to die young and suddenly. I don't care how independent you are; you should not -- and most likely will not want to-- go through that alone.
posted by mikeand1 at 3:07 PM on March 17, 2021 [5 favorites]
It's really not fair, is it. Any of it, I mean. The mutual burdens we place on each other, and the burdens we place on ourselves, just by existing.
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:34 PM on March 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:34 PM on March 17, 2021 [11 favorites]
I’m not really in a place where I can comment about this post too much except to say that I’m appreciative of the fact that this particular question and answer exists. So, thanks for posting it.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 3:57 PM on March 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by sara is disenchanted at 3:57 PM on March 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
I also don't understand the need to have someone take care of you? In a partner it's nice when it's light, but, independence is a virtue?
What I learnt from growing up with no family support and priding myself on independence, is you NEED help and support from other people. Life is impossibly hard with no support system. Humans are social animals and its not shameful to admit this. One of the hardest things lately is going into hospital alone due to COVID restrictions. Its scary and stressful and if anything goes wrong you will be alone in your last moments. Idk, I don't know anyone who says they're independent that doesn't actually have a robust immediate and extended social circle to depend on.
posted by everydayanewday at 4:31 PM on March 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
What I learnt from growing up with no family support and priding myself on independence, is you NEED help and support from other people. Life is impossibly hard with no support system. Humans are social animals and its not shameful to admit this. One of the hardest things lately is going into hospital alone due to COVID restrictions. Its scary and stressful and if anything goes wrong you will be alone in your last moments. Idk, I don't know anyone who says they're independent that doesn't actually have a robust immediate and extended social circle to depend on.
posted by everydayanewday at 4:31 PM on March 17, 2021 [14 favorites]
Idk, I don't know anyone who says they're independent that doesn't actually have a robust immediate and extended social circle to depend on.
^^
Or a person who became that way without being first birthed and raised and taught by other human beings. Like dang, I can make my own dentist's appointments, you think I was born on the mortal plane knowing that? There is so much invisible infrastructure that goes into making "an independent person," and when you sit down and think about it... you start to wonder about that idea at all, whether it's real or not.
As an eternally single person, I struggle often with not having a person to care for. Society makes that harder. Sometimes I struggle with being the person to care for myself. I more often think of this struggle in terms of loneliness, but this question-asker's use of anger made me stop and reconsider. I actually am very angry; in fact, it does feel like my rage will eat me alive. I hope I can one day find a partner that wants to care as much as I do. I hope I can one day be surrounded, physically, by friends that care very much about me.
And in the meantime... Mitski.
posted by snerson at 5:23 PM on March 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
^^
Or a person who became that way without being first birthed and raised and taught by other human beings. Like dang, I can make my own dentist's appointments, you think I was born on the mortal plane knowing that? There is so much invisible infrastructure that goes into making "an independent person," and when you sit down and think about it... you start to wonder about that idea at all, whether it's real or not.
As an eternally single person, I struggle often with not having a person to care for. Society makes that harder. Sometimes I struggle with being the person to care for myself. I more often think of this struggle in terms of loneliness, but this question-asker's use of anger made me stop and reconsider. I actually am very angry; in fact, it does feel like my rage will eat me alive. I hope I can one day find a partner that wants to care as much as I do. I hope I can one day be surrounded, physically, by friends that care very much about me.
And in the meantime... Mitski.
posted by snerson at 5:23 PM on March 17, 2021 [7 favorites]
Social support networks suck.
I think the pandemic has helped reveal that people have unrealistic expectation of their support networks. Granted, it was a unique circumstance, but having everyone needing support at the same time has put an enormous strain on the personal connections that people rely upon.
In a lot of cases, those support networks collapsed. Some constricted, shutting out members. Others revealed their limitations. And a whole lot of people learned not to rely on social support anymore.
Social support networks are discriminatory. They're insular. They're unregulated. They're unreliable. And it's like they're designed to fail the people who need them most.
Try having a chronic disease, and see how long it takes for your support network to get sick of you. Have a mental health issue that goes on a while. Take a political position that challenges your group. Stand up to mistreatment within the group. Watch what happens.
Think about what it's like for people who have difficulties with social connections at the best of times to have to depend on their social networks in times of distress. If you're not a charismatic, social, friendly, optimistic person who builds relationships well, you're on your own. Add in a couple of difficulty levels for minorities, LQBTQ+ folks, people with disabilities, and all the other usual suspects.
Those of you who emerged from this mess with strong social networks and good support, congratulations. Good for you. A whole lot of the rest of the world had to get through this mess on our own.
One of the legacies of this plague is going to be a whole population that had to suffer through it alone, and figured out that an independent life was possible, even in these dire circumstances. It's going to be really hard for them, for me, to depend on any form of social support going forward.
posted by MrVisible at 5:53 PM on March 17, 2021 [24 favorites]
I think the pandemic has helped reveal that people have unrealistic expectation of their support networks. Granted, it was a unique circumstance, but having everyone needing support at the same time has put an enormous strain on the personal connections that people rely upon.
In a lot of cases, those support networks collapsed. Some constricted, shutting out members. Others revealed their limitations. And a whole lot of people learned not to rely on social support anymore.
Social support networks are discriminatory. They're insular. They're unregulated. They're unreliable. And it's like they're designed to fail the people who need them most.
Try having a chronic disease, and see how long it takes for your support network to get sick of you. Have a mental health issue that goes on a while. Take a political position that challenges your group. Stand up to mistreatment within the group. Watch what happens.
Think about what it's like for people who have difficulties with social connections at the best of times to have to depend on their social networks in times of distress. If you're not a charismatic, social, friendly, optimistic person who builds relationships well, you're on your own. Add in a couple of difficulty levels for minorities, LQBTQ+ folks, people with disabilities, and all the other usual suspects.
Those of you who emerged from this mess with strong social networks and good support, congratulations. Good for you. A whole lot of the rest of the world had to get through this mess on our own.
One of the legacies of this plague is going to be a whole population that had to suffer through it alone, and figured out that an independent life was possible, even in these dire circumstances. It's going to be really hard for them, for me, to depend on any form of social support going forward.
posted by MrVisible at 5:53 PM on March 17, 2021 [24 favorites]
Actually this felt very off, like Havrilesky was talking about herself and not hearing the writer enough.
I'm glad for Heather that her life is full of love and support, truly. But for me the last year has been coming to terms with the knowledge that I probably will never have that. I can get a little love from my equally exhausted friends, and they from me, and some therapy, but the rest is largely self-care. And yeah, I may die alone, and never have a soulmate. I can't be angry about it; it's not something anyone did to me personally.
The writer suffered from sexism at her job, and needs a new one. She may or may not be having relationship trouble. She is grieving her shitty family. She is stretched and exhausted and angry. I don't think Havrilesky gave her much useful advice. Maybe there isn't any to give, but maybe also that was not the place to share how awesome things are for Havrilesky now, with the assumption that the writer can find it too, if she just looks hard enough.
posted by emjaybee at 6:34 PM on March 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
I'm glad for Heather that her life is full of love and support, truly. But for me the last year has been coming to terms with the knowledge that I probably will never have that. I can get a little love from my equally exhausted friends, and they from me, and some therapy, but the rest is largely self-care. And yeah, I may die alone, and never have a soulmate. I can't be angry about it; it's not something anyone did to me personally.
The writer suffered from sexism at her job, and needs a new one. She may or may not be having relationship trouble. She is grieving her shitty family. She is stretched and exhausted and angry. I don't think Havrilesky gave her much useful advice. Maybe there isn't any to give, but maybe also that was not the place to share how awesome things are for Havrilesky now, with the assumption that the writer can find it too, if she just looks hard enough.
posted by emjaybee at 6:34 PM on March 17, 2021 [21 favorites]
It had an "it got better vibe" for my taste, but I see that perspective, too.
I think people put an incredible amount of emphasis on relationships asap and with the right person. I am just looking for the right people/person, and I think it's really, really unnecessary to rush the process. There's literally nothing wrong with being independent, until the person would like to change it.
"Try having a chronic disease, and see how long it takes for your support network to get sick of you. Have a mental health issue that goes on a while. Take a political position that challenges your group. Stand up to mistreatment within the group. Watch what happens"
I once worked alongside a woman with Crohn's disease. I was so relieved she had an understanding support network. She took a required break every hour, she always seemed tired but happy. It was strangely empowering to have her around, but I really respected her situation. It seemed more complex than most people's will ever be.
..also I think I know what happens. 🐱
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:00 PM on March 17, 2021
I think people put an incredible amount of emphasis on relationships asap and with the right person. I am just looking for the right people/person, and I think it's really, really unnecessary to rush the process. There's literally nothing wrong with being independent, until the person would like to change it.
"Try having a chronic disease, and see how long it takes for your support network to get sick of you. Have a mental health issue that goes on a while. Take a political position that challenges your group. Stand up to mistreatment within the group. Watch what happens"
I once worked alongside a woman with Crohn's disease. I was so relieved she had an understanding support network. She took a required break every hour, she always seemed tired but happy. It was strangely empowering to have her around, but I really respected her situation. It seemed more complex than most people's will ever be.
..also I think I know what happens. 🐱
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:00 PM on March 17, 2021
I thought the author originally was going to tell her to buck up or pull up her millennial boot straps or something (I was turned off by this), then she closed with, essentially, "you deserve to give yourself what you need and I'm sorry." It took a more empathetic turn than I expected.
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:13 PM on March 17, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 7:13 PM on March 17, 2021
I think the pandemic has helped reveal that people have unrealistic expectation of their support networks. Granted, it was a unique circumstance, but having everyone needing support at the same time has put an enormous strain on the personal connections that people rely upon.
I feel this to my bones and some days I feel like I'm hanging on by a thread.
I've joked about it before, on twitter where it was half a shitpost and half a cry for help, but "Who moms the mom friend?" I'm so tired of being the one to reach out. I'm tired of hurting because no one is stepping up and giving me comfort I so desperately want and deserve. It's not like I'm hiding my troubles; it's just everyone else has their own, too.
I hate feeling like I'm competing for comfort. I'm trying to be understanding and forgiving during the current hellscape. Do I appear strong? Is that why I'm feeling adrift and taken for granted? I don't feel strong.
I'm trying to channel that sadness into anger, using this sudden immersion therapy of lacking to overcome my fear of abandonment and all the spiraling thoughts it brings with it, because at least anger doesn't feel like my chest is being ripped open while I'm crying alone at home. Anger feels more manageable, somehow; there's no neediness, just a huffy "well fine I'll just play this game by myself" which ironically is teaching me self-soothing techniques I so desperately need.
My actual mom is half a planet away and I haven't seen her since Christmas 2019. No one's momming the mom friend. She's just left burnt out and feeling alone.
posted by lesser weasel at 7:46 PM on March 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
I feel this to my bones and some days I feel like I'm hanging on by a thread.
I've joked about it before, on twitter where it was half a shitpost and half a cry for help, but "Who moms the mom friend?" I'm so tired of being the one to reach out. I'm tired of hurting because no one is stepping up and giving me comfort I so desperately want and deserve. It's not like I'm hiding my troubles; it's just everyone else has their own, too.
I hate feeling like I'm competing for comfort. I'm trying to be understanding and forgiving during the current hellscape. Do I appear strong? Is that why I'm feeling adrift and taken for granted? I don't feel strong.
I'm trying to channel that sadness into anger, using this sudden immersion therapy of lacking to overcome my fear of abandonment and all the spiraling thoughts it brings with it, because at least anger doesn't feel like my chest is being ripped open while I'm crying alone at home. Anger feels more manageable, somehow; there's no neediness, just a huffy "well fine I'll just play this game by myself" which ironically is teaching me self-soothing techniques I so desperately need.
My actual mom is half a planet away and I haven't seen her since Christmas 2019. No one's momming the mom friend. She's just left burnt out and feeling alone.
posted by lesser weasel at 7:46 PM on March 17, 2021 [16 favorites]
Idk, I don't know anyone who says they're independent that doesn't actually have a robust immediate and extended social circle to depend on.
^^
Or a person who became that way without being first birthed and raised and taught by other human beings. Like dang, I can make my own dentist's appointments, you think I was born on the mortal plane knowing that?
I mean. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I did the Whole Thing By Myself, but we actually did not all have parents or family that were worth a fuck? My parents never taught me how to make a dentist's appointment; they never even took me to the dentist after I was like, 6. I picked up on most of those little life things from surroundings and media. When I started living with someone in my early 30s he was appalled by most of my cleaning habits; I knew what a clean house should look like from TV but I didn't know how to actually clean anything, so all of my methods were...weird.
I don't think of it as proud cherished independence, so much as a combination of feeling like "adrift" is my comfortable and familiar state AND a terror of people finding out just how completely not competent I am.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:54 AM on March 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
^^
Or a person who became that way without being first birthed and raised and taught by other human beings. Like dang, I can make my own dentist's appointments, you think I was born on the mortal plane knowing that?
I mean. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I did the Whole Thing By Myself, but we actually did not all have parents or family that were worth a fuck? My parents never taught me how to make a dentist's appointment; they never even took me to the dentist after I was like, 6. I picked up on most of those little life things from surroundings and media. When I started living with someone in my early 30s he was appalled by most of my cleaning habits; I knew what a clean house should look like from TV but I didn't know how to actually clean anything, so all of my methods were...weird.
I don't think of it as proud cherished independence, so much as a combination of feeling like "adrift" is my comfortable and familiar state AND a terror of people finding out just how completely not competent I am.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:54 AM on March 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
One thing the pandemic has done is make it awfully hard to ascertain how people are really doing. I know that because I'm one of them. We're all posting photos of our crafts, our sourdough bread, how we've finally organized that room that we were all going to get to and never did but it's all a thin veneer over our fear, our rage, our sadness, our feelings of futility, our loneliness (even for those of us who don't live alone). EMSTBC may not be all of us, but she's certainly a hell of a lot of us.
posted by tommasz at 8:09 AM on March 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 8:09 AM on March 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
There is intrinsic validity to any state. I can imagine a state that is repugnant to me, but surely it's valid to the person experiencing that state/those feelings. The isolation and self-reliance described by people in this thread are at once their own thing, and also they echo any time a person has felt isolated, cut off, and faced with dealing with hard things on their own. I have been fortunate this past year, and had the pandemic struck closer to 2018 when I lost my second parent I'm not sure how I'd have dealt with it. I know the people in my life have made all the difference. If I had comfort to offer anyone out there I would sure give it, because life is not easy and even harder if you feel alone.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:41 AM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 8:41 AM on March 18, 2021 [1 favorite]
I take your point blast, but also, I think there's something to be said from the fact that there were surroundings and media for you to pick up the idea of "going to the dentist's," or even oral health at all. The idea and the way it was transmitted to you were also the work of humans, and you still learned from them, even if wasn't a one-on-one, hold-your-hand, mother-baby type of process. IDK, what I'm trying to get across here is the sense that a lot of things about humans are constructed, either by that individual human left to their own devices, for better or for worse, or their environmental humans (society).
To continue the thought, there's also a significant leap of understanding between "going to the dentist's is a thing that happens" and "going to the dentist's is a thing I can do" and then to "a thing I should do." (*assuming resources available to do dentistry)
I guess to put it more plainly, I'd say we appear on the mortal plane, as infants, knowing we're embodied and knowing whether that body is in pain or not. We know how to ask for help to make the discomfort go away (crying). But learning things like language that help us pinpoint the pain and describe it to others, and ask for help and how to be proactive (brush regularly, etc), are constructions of humanity. I don't want to holler about it too much more here, but reading up on feral children (cw for child abuse) might give a closer idea of what I'm saying we're not by virtue of hanging out with other humans.
posted by snerson at 8:47 AM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
To continue the thought, there's also a significant leap of understanding between "going to the dentist's is a thing that happens" and "going to the dentist's is a thing I can do" and then to "a thing I should do." (*assuming resources available to do dentistry)
I guess to put it more plainly, I'd say we appear on the mortal plane, as infants, knowing we're embodied and knowing whether that body is in pain or not. We know how to ask for help to make the discomfort go away (crying). But learning things like language that help us pinpoint the pain and describe it to others, and ask for help and how to be proactive (brush regularly, etc), are constructions of humanity. I don't want to holler about it too much more here, but reading up on feral children (cw for child abuse) might give a closer idea of what I'm saying we're not by virtue of hanging out with other humans.
posted by snerson at 8:47 AM on March 18, 2021 [3 favorites]
One of the legacies of this plague is going to be a whole population that had to suffer through it alone, and figured out that an independent life was possible, even in these dire circumstances. It's going to be really hard for them, for me, to depend on any form of social support going forward.
posted by MrVisible
Maybe. I mean, people may have learned that they can survive independently, but I also think many may take the lesson that their social support networks were in pretty poor condition when the sh*t came down, and as soon as they can get out and interact with the world again it may be time to work on those networks. This idea may be orthogonal to MrVisible's point so don't take it as repudiation.
posted by Cris E at 8:58 AM on March 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by MrVisible
Maybe. I mean, people may have learned that they can survive independently, but I also think many may take the lesson that their social support networks were in pretty poor condition when the sh*t came down, and as soon as they can get out and interact with the world again it may be time to work on those networks. This idea may be orthogonal to MrVisible's point so don't take it as repudiation.
posted by Cris E at 8:58 AM on March 18, 2021 [5 favorites]
I do not believe independence is a virtue.
posted by srboisvert at 9:12 AM on March 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 9:12 AM on March 18, 2021 [8 favorites]
Whether independence is a virtue or not, for some people it's a reality. Ask anyone who works in a nursing home how many people end up alone.
Some of us just aren't good at making human connections. That's not always our fault. Trauma can make attachments very difficult. A lot of us face prejudices which create obstacles to friendship.
And nobody here seems to be arguing that a human being can be completely independent; obviously, we're all dependent on society. It's just that some peoples' interactions are more impersonal.
Some people, I recently discovered thanks to Pete Walker's excellent book on CPTSD, are just not good at receiving comfort. They don't get as much comfort from relationships as others. When I heard that, a whole lot of my life suddenly made sense. For me, relationships take a lot of work, stress me out enormously, and I simply don't get much out of them. I feel just as alone no matter who I'm with.
And that's incredibly unfair to everyone involved.
So unless there are enough good, healthy social support networks around for everyone, and they can incorporate even the most prickly of personalities, we might want to consider being better at supporting people who live more independently. I don't want to have to win a popularity contest to survive.
posted by MrVisible at 9:45 AM on March 18, 2021 [18 favorites]
Some of us just aren't good at making human connections. That's not always our fault. Trauma can make attachments very difficult. A lot of us face prejudices which create obstacles to friendship.
And nobody here seems to be arguing that a human being can be completely independent; obviously, we're all dependent on society. It's just that some peoples' interactions are more impersonal.
Some people, I recently discovered thanks to Pete Walker's excellent book on CPTSD, are just not good at receiving comfort. They don't get as much comfort from relationships as others. When I heard that, a whole lot of my life suddenly made sense. For me, relationships take a lot of work, stress me out enormously, and I simply don't get much out of them. I feel just as alone no matter who I'm with.
And that's incredibly unfair to everyone involved.
So unless there are enough good, healthy social support networks around for everyone, and they can incorporate even the most prickly of personalities, we might want to consider being better at supporting people who live more independently. I don't want to have to win a popularity contest to survive.
posted by MrVisible at 9:45 AM on March 18, 2021 [18 favorites]
There's short story by Ursula LeGuin called "Solitude" that takes place in a society where people keep each other at arm's length deliberately (but not cut off from each other entirely) after childhood. I've read it a few times during this year and it's given some comfort and helped me examine my own feelings about loneliness.
posted by emjaybee at 10:23 AM on March 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 10:23 AM on March 18, 2021 [4 favorites]
No one's momming the mom friend. She's just left burnt out and feeling alone.
This is also true for legions of straight men who are not used to expressing their emotions, but rather are taught to suppress, "buck up," and "push through."
I'm pretty emotionally open for a middle-aged straight guy, but I have definitely struggled with the idea of needing comfort from others during the last year. I try to be there emotionally for my wife and children when they need comfort and reassurance, but I also have decades of socialization telling me to be the "strong one" for everyone else.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:41 AM on March 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
This is also true for legions of straight men who are not used to expressing their emotions, but rather are taught to suppress, "buck up," and "push through."
I'm pretty emotionally open for a middle-aged straight guy, but I have definitely struggled with the idea of needing comfort from others during the last year. I try to be there emotionally for my wife and children when they need comfort and reassurance, but I also have decades of socialization telling me to be the "strong one" for everyone else.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 10:41 AM on March 18, 2021 [7 favorites]
"There's short story by Ursula LeGuin called "Solitude" that takes place in a society where people keep each other at arm's length deliberately (but not cut off from each other entirely) after childhood." This sounds like a very weird description of Denmark to me. (.. Denmark is very nice)
And no, human beings rarely can be completely independent (there are various studies on feral people (super interesting - see russia's gena) or those living alone, but we're social animals.
I just read a statistic confirming less social stimulation is in many cases worse than alcoholism. Then there's the study on Norwegian rats that's always around, where the rats prefer friendship to heroin, which suggestively compares to the human social dynamic and mindset as well. (See google, typing with thumbs, cite/sources truly exist).
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:36 AM on March 18, 2021
And no, human beings rarely can be completely independent (there are various studies on feral people (super interesting - see russia's gena) or those living alone, but we're social animals.
I just read a statistic confirming less social stimulation is in many cases worse than alcoholism. Then there's the study on Norwegian rats that's always around, where the rats prefer friendship to heroin, which suggestively compares to the human social dynamic and mindset as well. (See google, typing with thumbs, cite/sources truly exist).
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:36 AM on March 18, 2021
*Genie, and someone beat me to the feral child reference. Nice!
When I say independence is a virtue, I don't intend people to go Bear Grylls and make boot straps quotes (please don't). It's a balance- I intend people to hold empathy for themselves (this is self compassion), find a way to be valuable to their local supports, and some means of giving while being able to enjoy/receive. Pretty basic cultural anthropological or socio-anthro stuff. My apologies, this could be articulated better.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:44 AM on March 18, 2021
When I say independence is a virtue, I don't intend people to go Bear Grylls and make boot straps quotes (please don't). It's a balance- I intend people to hold empathy for themselves (this is self compassion), find a way to be valuable to their local supports, and some means of giving while being able to enjoy/receive. Pretty basic cultural anthropological or socio-anthro stuff. My apologies, this could be articulated better.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:44 AM on March 18, 2021
(I somehow am triple posting, I'm sorry mods. If you'd like to condense all three of these, please do)
So, when I say adult child and mention caring for a partner: I think it's implicit care is reciprocated in any partnership. That's part of the deal. I'm referencing relationships where there are imbalances or maybe the emo-labor is off. I hope this clarifies.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:51 AM on March 18, 2021
So, when I say adult child and mention caring for a partner: I think it's implicit care is reciprocated in any partnership. That's part of the deal. I'm referencing relationships where there are imbalances or maybe the emo-labor is off. I hope this clarifies.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:51 AM on March 18, 2021
I do not believe independence is a virtue.
In prison culture, independence is seen as a sign of aggression.
posted by rhizome at 12:21 PM on March 18, 2021
In prison culture, independence is seen as a sign of aggression.
posted by rhizome at 12:21 PM on March 18, 2021
One thing the pandemic has done is make it awfully hard to ascertain how people are really doing.
A friend's LiveJournal (back when that was a thing) was titled "all the news that's trivial enough to print". Because, as he explained, if something was really important he wasn't about to just dump it out there for everyone to see it.
I'm also reminded of a story my Zen teacher told (misquoted from memory) about a Zen monk and poet who lived alone in a cave on a mountain and wrote truthfully about his experiences. What I remember her saying is "He wrote that it was cold, and he was lonely. People really didn't want to hear that."
posted by Lexica at 2:20 PM on March 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
A friend's LiveJournal (back when that was a thing) was titled "all the news that's trivial enough to print". Because, as he explained, if something was really important he wasn't about to just dump it out there for everyone to see it.
I'm also reminded of a story my Zen teacher told (misquoted from memory) about a Zen monk and poet who lived alone in a cave on a mountain and wrote truthfully about his experiences. What I remember her saying is "He wrote that it was cold, and he was lonely. People really didn't want to hear that."
posted by Lexica at 2:20 PM on March 18, 2021 [9 favorites]
I also don't really think of independence as a virtue.
I actually think one of the most pernicious lies that has been sold to American women is that feminism = independence and that independence = not needing anything from anyone ever.
posted by peacheater at 7:21 AM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
I actually think one of the most pernicious lies that has been sold to American women is that feminism = independence and that independence = not needing anything from anyone ever.
posted by peacheater at 7:21 AM on March 19, 2021 [2 favorites]
For me, anger like this is a facet of depression. It's the first emotion-like thing that comes back after feeling numb, and it's a bumpy ride. Sadness comes next, and then a more normal emotional range starts to come in.
My recent and tenuous journey away from being overcome with rage involved joining a group working on an issue I cared about (and setting healthy but flexible boundaries around how much work I can do for them). In my case, my union needed a roughly-me-shaped person to step up, but your thing could be climate action or promoting Amtrak or artisanal pickling techniques, as long as you care about it and the group is at least somewhat pleasant to work with. Ideally it is small-ish or local-ish so your contributions are noticeable and you see the same people repeatedly. This is hard during a pandemic! I got so involved in the union partly because the stuff I usually do hasn't really been happening for a year, and there have been other attempts that weren't the right fit.
posted by momus_window at 10:29 PM on March 19, 2021
My recent and tenuous journey away from being overcome with rage involved joining a group working on an issue I cared about (and setting healthy but flexible boundaries around how much work I can do for them). In my case, my union needed a roughly-me-shaped person to step up, but your thing could be climate action or promoting Amtrak or artisanal pickling techniques, as long as you care about it and the group is at least somewhat pleasant to work with. Ideally it is small-ish or local-ish so your contributions are noticeable and you see the same people repeatedly. This is hard during a pandemic! I got so involved in the union partly because the stuff I usually do hasn't really been happening for a year, and there have been other attempts that weren't the right fit.
posted by momus_window at 10:29 PM on March 19, 2021
It's an open door I suppose, but it seems well established (as schematized by Maslow's pyramid of needs or self-determination theory's triad of competence, autonomy, relatedness for example) that we're all dependent on one another to some degree for sustenance, care, and recognition. Our independence, such as it is, is always embedded in some larger web of mutual dependencies. (I say that as someone who values independence greatly.)
It's natural to feel anger when vital needs are not met. A lack of recognition or care can be just as threatening, even dehumanizing, as a lack of food. But what is proper recognition? What is proper food, for that matter? The whole thing is further complicated because different people have differing needs. It can be hard to find your tribe.
These needs being so fundamental, they can run away with a person. A lack of fulfillment in one area can drive a person to overcompensate in another. A lack of relatedness can lead people to focus on competence to the extent it becomes workaholism. A lack of autonomy can lead people foster relatedness that borders on self-abasement.
Many addictions, I think, come from a place of pain that stems from lack of fulfillment. And there is nothing quite like the anger of the addict. I've been very, very, angry at times. In all sorts of ways that's hurt the people around me more than I care to admit. It took me a long time to accept that my anger over a lack of connection was what made it impossible for people to make that connection in the first place. It's hard to depend on angry people.
posted by dmh at 10:20 AM on March 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's natural to feel anger when vital needs are not met. A lack of recognition or care can be just as threatening, even dehumanizing, as a lack of food. But what is proper recognition? What is proper food, for that matter? The whole thing is further complicated because different people have differing needs. It can be hard to find your tribe.
These needs being so fundamental, they can run away with a person. A lack of fulfillment in one area can drive a person to overcompensate in another. A lack of relatedness can lead people to focus on competence to the extent it becomes workaholism. A lack of autonomy can lead people foster relatedness that borders on self-abasement.
Many addictions, I think, come from a place of pain that stems from lack of fulfillment. And there is nothing quite like the anger of the addict. I've been very, very, angry at times. In all sorts of ways that's hurt the people around me more than I care to admit. It took me a long time to accept that my anger over a lack of connection was what made it impossible for people to make that connection in the first place. It's hard to depend on angry people.
posted by dmh at 10:20 AM on March 20, 2021 [3 favorites]
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"People are so confused and avoidant that they don’t make sense anymore. No one knows how to sort through anything, so they just keep sidestepping each other’s needs instead"
I also don't understand the need to have someone take care of you? In a partner it's nice when it's light, but, independence is a virtue?
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:09 PM on March 17, 2021