"Stallman’s 'that’s how it is' is not how it has to be."
March 24, 2021 8:29 AM Subscribe
At the end of his recent online presentation for LibrePlanet, Richard Stallman announced his reinstatement to the board of the Free Software Foundation, a year and a half from his removal from said board in response to his history of misogynistic behavior triggered by his response to victims of abuse by Jeffrey Epstein. The announcement was met with condemnation from other open source groups, with groups like Outreachy banning the FSF from participating in their programs.
The title is taken from the title of the OES statement on the reinstatement.
The title is taken from the title of the OES statement on the reinstatement.
There's also an open letter from the open source community condemning RMS's re-instatement and demanding the resignation of the FSF board, who surprised everyone - including their own org - with his reinstatement after private/secret discussions because they knew it would not go over well.
RMS's behavior was so bad that the FSF employees created a union to defend themselves against him.
It's very telling how much this exposes the tech community's issues by reading the comments in the Hacker News threads rabidly defending/excusing his behavior and blaming cancel culture. They idolize him as a hero of ND behavior and not having to be accountable for their own history of misogyny and abusive behavior.
posted by jpeacock at 8:48 AM on March 24, 2021 [22 favorites]
RMS's behavior was so bad that the FSF employees created a union to defend themselves against him.
It's very telling how much this exposes the tech community's issues by reading the comments in the Hacker News threads rabidly defending/excusing his behavior and blaming cancel culture. They idolize him as a hero of ND behavior and not having to be accountable for their own history of misogyny and abusive behavior.
posted by jpeacock at 8:48 AM on March 24, 2021 [22 favorites]
It's very telling how much this exposes the tech community's issues
HN doesn't speak for the "Tech Community".
posted by sideshow at 8:50 AM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
HN doesn't speak for the "Tech Community".
posted by sideshow at 8:50 AM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
So many acronyms! I get most of them, but what is "ND behavior"?
posted by amtho at 8:51 AM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by amtho at 8:51 AM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
Shun the FSF.
There's still no statement from the FSF or any of its leaders on why they did this, right? How damning for them. Either they're craven and hoping a low profile will make this go away.. Or they're just incompetent and irrelevant. The latter has been true for a long time now, so maybe it's the right explanation.
(The Hacker News discussion was really disgusting, even for them. ND stands for "neurodivergent". The leading theory I read over there is that he's not a sexist harasser, no... he's just neuroatypical. And really its our fault for not understanding him.)
posted by Nelson at 8:53 AM on March 24, 2021 [14 favorites]
There's still no statement from the FSF or any of its leaders on why they did this, right? How damning for them. Either they're craven and hoping a low profile will make this go away.. Or they're just incompetent and irrelevant. The latter has been true for a long time now, so maybe it's the right explanation.
(The Hacker News discussion was really disgusting, even for them. ND stands for "neurodivergent". The leading theory I read over there is that he's not a sexist harasser, no... he's just neuroatypical. And really its our fault for not understanding him.)
posted by Nelson at 8:53 AM on March 24, 2021 [14 favorites]
Richard Stallman eats his own foot. Again.
posted by loquacious at 9:00 AM on March 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 9:00 AM on March 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
The leading theory I read over there is that he's not a sexist harasser, no... he's just neuroatypical. And really its our fault for not understanding him.
This is an excellent rebuttal to that argument. (Short version: you can be neurodivergent and an abuser, and the former doesn't excuse the latter. )
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:01 AM on March 24, 2021 [27 favorites]
This is an excellent rebuttal to that argument. (Short version: you can be neurodivergent and an abuser, and the former doesn't excuse the latter. )
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:01 AM on March 24, 2021 [27 favorites]
HN doesn't speak for the "Tech Community".
It speaks for a portion with significant clout and voice, and we should not pretend otherwise.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:05 AM on March 24, 2021 [36 favorites]
It speaks for a portion with significant clout and voice, and we should not pretend otherwise.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:05 AM on March 24, 2021 [36 favorites]
Hacker News is a bigoted cesspool of people who suffer from late-stage Engineer's Disease.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:11 AM on March 24, 2021 [41 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 9:11 AM on March 24, 2021 [41 favorites]
Sometimes I want to go back to a time when telling people that my hobbies include programming my xmonad/arch linux computer system caused them to imagine me as a character from Hackers rather than The Social Network. Unfortunately I think a lot of the tech community fantasizes about being in the former, while actually being in the latter. Turns out we have to keep growing up if we want a phrase like "free as in speech" to remain an ideal, and not become a weapon for the powerful.
posted by Alex404 at 9:18 AM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by Alex404 at 9:18 AM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
I dunno who speaks for the tech community, really (or, honestly, believe such a thing exists) but people seem to use HN as a barometer of sentiment and a proxy for some part of Silicon Valley culture. Anyhoo, it’d be nice if the ACM or IEEE had a take.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:24 AM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:24 AM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think the HN people are a small but visible minority of tech workers. Across the several Silicon Valley companies I've worked for and interacted with, I've never met one in real life, though I'm willing to admit in person personas often don't match who they are behind the anonymity of a keyboard. That community in particular seems to drive away anyone who isn't completely toxic.
Everyone I work with and know is openly disgusted that he's been reappointed to the board. Zero defenders among the several hundred engineers I work with via Slack and elsewhere.
posted by mikesch at 9:31 AM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Everyone I work with and know is openly disgusted that he's been reappointed to the board. Zero defenders among the several hundred engineers I work with via Slack and elsewhere.
posted by mikesch at 9:31 AM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Anyhoo, lovely day to sign an open letter
posted by Going To Maine at 9:50 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:50 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
They don't think it be like it is, but it do doesn't have to be.
posted by atrazine at 10:02 AM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by atrazine at 10:02 AM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Yeah this is terrible and I don't know why the FSF feel compelled to bring RMS back into the fold. He's not dumb, he's spent his life not caring what other people think and now he thinks he's some iconoclast for rejecting the existence of sexual harassment.
Stallman's "Anti-Glossary" contains this gem: "I don't think that rape should be treated like stealing a kiss, so I reject the term "sexual assault" completely."
What's weird is he uses very similar logic to get to positions I think a lot of people would agree with. But he willfully refuses to change and it drives women out of the open source movement and its just not acceptable. His presence in FSF leadership is actively harmful.
posted by GuyZero at 10:04 AM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
Stallman's "Anti-Glossary" contains this gem: "I don't think that rape should be treated like stealing a kiss, so I reject the term "sexual assault" completely."
What's weird is he uses very similar logic to get to positions I think a lot of people would agree with. But he willfully refuses to change and it drives women out of the open source movement and its just not acceptable. His presence in FSF leadership is actively harmful.
posted by GuyZero at 10:04 AM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
Yeah this is terrible and I don't know why the FSF feel compelled to bring RMS back into the fold.
Given that FSF staff didn't find out about it before the general public, it doesn't look like it was a popular decision within the organisation. Chances are one or two of his allies sprung it on them.
posted by acb at 10:08 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Given that FSF staff didn't find out about it before the general public, it doesn't look like it was a popular decision within the organisation. Chances are one or two of his allies sprung it on them.
posted by acb at 10:08 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
He's just a garden variety sexist piece of shit garbed in some meaningless rhetorical tricks endemic to nerd culture, particular MIT nerd culture.
On one hand: several women describing their personal experiences being sexually harassed by Richard Stallman, over decades.
On the other hand: some complex and idiosyncratic rhetorical attempt to refute the existence of sexual harassment from first principals, cast as a filk song, and if you can't follow it maybe you're the one who's wrong.
posted by Nelson at 10:08 AM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
On one hand: several women describing their personal experiences being sexually harassed by Richard Stallman, over decades.
On the other hand: some complex and idiosyncratic rhetorical attempt to refute the existence of sexual harassment from first principals, cast as a filk song, and if you can't follow it maybe you're the one who's wrong.
posted by Nelson at 10:08 AM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
FSF Europe have issued a statement:
posted by swr at 10:12 AM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
We learnt through a public announcement that Richard Stallman is again part of the board of directors of the Free Software Foundation, one of our independent sister organisations. We disapprove of this step that came without any message of remorse or willingness to change.I think the free software mission is something worthy of financial support. I've been paying membership dues to the FSF pretty much by default, but the thought of directing money to FSFE instead had crossed my mind more than once. It's starting to look like a really good idea now.
posted by swr at 10:12 AM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
HN doesn't speak for the "Tech Community".
Yeah, I think this is easy to lose sight of.
A lot of techies are women, feminists, trans people, and folks who *aren't* OK with misogyny and oppressive behavior. They are quieter than the Silicon Valley libertarian-bro crowd and constantly pushed to the margins, so it's easy to lose sight of them, but we shouldn't erase them.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:20 AM on March 24, 2021 [30 favorites]
Yeah, I think this is easy to lose sight of.
A lot of techies are women, feminists, trans people, and folks who *aren't* OK with misogyny and oppressive behavior. They are quieter than the Silicon Valley libertarian-bro crowd and constantly pushed to the margins, so it's easy to lose sight of them, but we shouldn't erase them.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:20 AM on March 24, 2021 [30 favorites]
Oof, that Anti-Glossary. Would better be called a Hubris Glossary.
posted by riverlife at 10:21 AM on March 24, 2021
posted by riverlife at 10:21 AM on March 24, 2021
On its website, the Free Software Foundation defines itself as a “worldwide community of ethical programmers.”
"Ethical" is really on kind of the same linguistic drift path that "literal" is on, isn't it. Soon, if not already, the term means both what it traditionally meant and its exact opposite simultaneously.
posted by Drastic at 10:22 AM on March 24, 2021 [20 favorites]
"Ethical" is really on kind of the same linguistic drift path that "literal" is on, isn't it. Soon, if not already, the term means both what it traditionally meant and its exact opposite simultaneously.
posted by Drastic at 10:22 AM on March 24, 2021 [20 favorites]
I interpreted this bewildering news as the end of any relevance for the FSF. I don't see how they come back from it.
posted by fedward at 10:25 AM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by fedward at 10:25 AM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
You’re right but sideshow’s point is very important: the objectionable HN crowd loves to act like they’re the core of the tech community, responsible for progress and defending intellectual excellence against political activists who don’t contribute much. We need to reject that framing every time and especially focus on the lost contributions from people who were turned away.HN doesn't speak for the "Tech Community".It speaks for a portion with significant clout and voice, and we should not pretend otherwise.
On that note, it’s really quick to add your name to the letter: email digitalautonomy at riseup.net or submit a pull request. It took about an hour to get updated.
posted by adamsc at 10:34 AM on March 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
Damn. Stallman invented half the software I use every day. In a few brief interactions, he's always been kind to me. But, the world would be better without this arrogant blowhard taking jobs from more talented and less awful people. I'm absolutely not going to harm him. But, I hope the asshole chokes to death on a futurist think-tank funded canape before he gets to make any decisions.
Free as in "free to punch you in the mouth without consequence," not free as in "free beer."
posted by eotvos at 10:37 AM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Free as in "free to punch you in the mouth without consequence," not free as in "free beer."
posted by eotvos at 10:37 AM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Imagine what the tech world would be like if MIT had started showing some moral leadership about 40 years ago.
posted by mecran01 at 10:39 AM on March 24, 2021 [64 favorites]
posted by mecran01 at 10:39 AM on March 24, 2021 [64 favorites]
Stallman's "Anti-Glossary" reads like the protests of a disturbed child against the world. Several of them completely misconstrue reality. Sexual assault laws (at least in my part of the world) don't treat rape the same way as "stealing a kiss", but critically, those laws cover not just one singular behaviour as an assault but a range. Degree of charge and punishment are entirely different, but society does that for all kinds of offenses, not just sexual ones.
The fact that he doesn't understand this is a compelling argument to me for his removal. There's a kind of binary fragility common to the arguments of all abusers and narcissists. It's a major red flag to me that he formulates right and wrong by excluding the middle.
posted by bonehead at 10:49 AM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
The fact that he doesn't understand this is a compelling argument to me for his removal. There's a kind of binary fragility common to the arguments of all abusers and narcissists. It's a major red flag to me that he formulates right and wrong by excluding the middle.
posted by bonehead at 10:49 AM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
The leading theory I read over there is that he's not a sexist harasser, no... he's just neuroatypical. And really its our fault for not understanding him.
This is such a bogus argument. Even if we assume it's true, the solution is not to tolerate the sexual harassment, it's to keep him away from situations where he can harass, because he's incapable of understanding what he's doing is wrong.
I can absolutely believe that neurodivergent people can have huge difficulty in understanding correct social behavior, but that doesn't give them a free pass. They either need to be given rules of behavior in some form that they do understand or they need to be kept away from situations where it's a problem (or have someone running interference).
A sort of vaguely related issue is men who complain that they can't complement a woman's clothing without being viewed as a harasser. First, that's not true. Second, a simple solution would seem to be "don't comment on a woman's clothing". Sure, there's some middle ground there, but if you don't know where it is, pick something safe. It's not the end of the world if you can't comment on Darlene's nice boots.
Stallman has done a lot of good, but he's far from irreplaceable.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:53 AM on March 24, 2021 [18 favorites]
This is such a bogus argument. Even if we assume it's true, the solution is not to tolerate the sexual harassment, it's to keep him away from situations where he can harass, because he's incapable of understanding what he's doing is wrong.
I can absolutely believe that neurodivergent people can have huge difficulty in understanding correct social behavior, but that doesn't give them a free pass. They either need to be given rules of behavior in some form that they do understand or they need to be kept away from situations where it's a problem (or have someone running interference).
A sort of vaguely related issue is men who complain that they can't complement a woman's clothing without being viewed as a harasser. First, that's not true. Second, a simple solution would seem to be "don't comment on a woman's clothing". Sure, there's some middle ground there, but if you don't know where it is, pick something safe. It's not the end of the world if you can't comment on Darlene's nice boots.
Stallman has done a lot of good, but he's far from irreplaceable.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:53 AM on March 24, 2021 [18 favorites]
Stallman invented half the software I use every day.
What are you thinking of? Are you still using gcc instead of clang? Or maybe emacs?
Stallman did not invent most of the rest of the GNU software. Other people wrote it, and most of it is a clone of tools first written by BSD developers and the occasional SysV. I don't mean to dismiss the achievements of gcc or emacs but his contributions to those were largely decades ago. Of course he's most famous for advocating for Free Software and creating the GNU Public License. Those are both also hugely influential. But they aren't software.
These days even the GNU tools seem to be falling out of favor; I feel like my Ubuntu system has less and less FSF software in it every revision. And the other big popular Unix, MacOS, rejects GPL software with a vengeance.
The FSF really is an organization of the past. It doesn't give me a lot of pleasure to say it, but this isn't 1992 anymore.
(All that is independent of why the FSF would think it's a good idea to reinstate Stallman. I have a sad feeling that all the FSF really is these days is RMS, and without him they are nothing. The latest Hurd release was December 2016.)
posted by Nelson at 11:00 AM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
What are you thinking of? Are you still using gcc instead of clang? Or maybe emacs?
Stallman did not invent most of the rest of the GNU software. Other people wrote it, and most of it is a clone of tools first written by BSD developers and the occasional SysV. I don't mean to dismiss the achievements of gcc or emacs but his contributions to those were largely decades ago. Of course he's most famous for advocating for Free Software and creating the GNU Public License. Those are both also hugely influential. But they aren't software.
These days even the GNU tools seem to be falling out of favor; I feel like my Ubuntu system has less and less FSF software in it every revision. And the other big popular Unix, MacOS, rejects GPL software with a vengeance.
The FSF really is an organization of the past. It doesn't give me a lot of pleasure to say it, but this isn't 1992 anymore.
(All that is independent of why the FSF would think it's a good idea to reinstate Stallman. I have a sad feeling that all the FSF really is these days is RMS, and without him they are nothing. The latest Hurd release was December 2016.)
posted by Nelson at 11:00 AM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
"ND Behavior" is likely "neuro-diverse behavior." (on preview, this was already answered, I just missed it)
posted by rouftop at 11:01 AM on March 24, 2021
posted by rouftop at 11:01 AM on March 24, 2021
Stallman invented half the software I use every day.
What are you thinking of? Are you still using gcc instead of clang? Or maybe emacs?
Maybe they're running Hurd on the desktop.
posted by octothorpe at 11:04 AM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
What are you thinking of? Are you still using gcc instead of clang? Or maybe emacs?
Maybe they're running Hurd on the desktop.
posted by octothorpe at 11:04 AM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Lobsters is a pretty good alternative to HN. Here's their thread on this:
https://lobste.rs/s/cv4oni/richard_stallman_announcing_his_return
posted by hypnogogue at 11:05 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
https://lobste.rs/s/cv4oni/richard_stallman_announcing_his_return
posted by hypnogogue at 11:05 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
So many acronyms! I get most of them, but what is "ND behavior"?
ND, “neurodivergent”. On the autism spectrum.
In comparison to those whose neurology is “neurotypicical”.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:17 AM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
ND, “neurodivergent”. On the autism spectrum.
In comparison to those whose neurology is “neurotypicical”.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:17 AM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
The only way the "neurodivergent" thing could be in any way relevant is if all you care about is making moral judgements on RMS rather than about protecting people from harm.
Because if you actually care about the people being harmed, then it doesn't matter why RMS was hurting people. That's between him and his therapist. All that matters is getting him out of there so the harm stops.
posted by straight at 11:20 AM on March 24, 2021 [15 favorites]
Because if you actually care about the people being harmed, then it doesn't matter why RMS was hurting people. That's between him and his therapist. All that matters is getting him out of there so the harm stops.
posted by straight at 11:20 AM on March 24, 2021 [15 favorites]
Stallman's "Anti-Glossary" contains this gem: "I don't think that rape should be treated like stealing a kiss, so I reject the term "sexual assault" completely."
Stabbing someone is different from slapping someone in the face; therefore the term "assault" is invalid. *eyeroll*
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:22 AM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
Stabbing someone is different from slapping someone in the face; therefore the term "assault" is invalid. *eyeroll*
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:22 AM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
What are you thinking of? Are you still using gcc instead of clang? Or maybe emacs?Well. . . yeah. In both cases. I had to look up what clang is. It seems to involve a lot of acronyms that I also don't understand, but it sounds cool. I've never heard anyone mention it. (I'm not a programmer. A significant part of my job seems to be annoying people who actually know what they're doing when writing science-related analysis software. I'm proud that we haven't written any new stuff in fortran recently.)
posted by eotvos at 11:25 AM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
The consensus for a while is that the FSF is past its useful lifespan and it's time for other orgs like the EFF to carry the torch. This is just another nail in that coffin.
There are over a dozen non-profit analogues to the FSF that were formed specifically to enable people to work on free software development without dealing with RMS.
There is also a big enough online world today that we can have an online and offline space cordoned off with warnings and a barf bag dispenser where RMS can work with those willing to work with him. Refusing to enter that space is already better for one's career than entering it, so its existence won't further past inequities like back when the contested space was a building at MIT and the grossness caused talented young women to go elsewhere for a career and deprive computer science of their talents. It's a pity that this RMS-occupied space is called the "FSF" now, but it's not the worst thing in the world.
posted by ocschwar at 11:26 AM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
There are over a dozen non-profit analogues to the FSF that were formed specifically to enable people to work on free software development without dealing with RMS.
There is also a big enough online world today that we can have an online and offline space cordoned off with warnings and a barf bag dispenser where RMS can work with those willing to work with him. Refusing to enter that space is already better for one's career than entering it, so its existence won't further past inequities like back when the contested space was a building at MIT and the grossness caused talented young women to go elsewhere for a career and deprive computer science of their talents. It's a pity that this RMS-occupied space is called the "FSF" now, but it's not the worst thing in the world.
posted by ocschwar at 11:26 AM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think it's less that the FSF is RMS, and more that the FSF's board are RMS's people, and the favor of patronage has been returned. But I guess that's a distinction without a difference.
posted by fedward at 11:29 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by fedward at 11:29 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
> the other big popular Unix, MacOS, rejects GPL software with a vengeance.
A ringing endorsement of strong copyleft if I ever saw one.
Rule of thumb: if Google, Apple, etc seem against something, it's probably great for the rest of us.
I also don't think RMS should lead the FSF/GNU anymore given the issues that had him removed to begin with but the FSF's particular style of software freedom advocacy is as important as it's ever been, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who agree on the things that matter that don't suffer from the same flaws as him.
posted by Bangaioh at 11:31 AM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
A ringing endorsement of strong copyleft if I ever saw one.
Rule of thumb: if Google, Apple, etc seem against something, it's probably great for the rest of us.
I also don't think RMS should lead the FSF/GNU anymore given the issues that had him removed to begin with but the FSF's particular style of software freedom advocacy is as important as it's ever been, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who agree on the things that matter that don't suffer from the same flaws as him.
posted by Bangaioh at 11:31 AM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
Amazing seeing people throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, viz: "RMS is bad, and so are copyleft and the GPL."
posted by nosewings at 11:42 AM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by nosewings at 11:42 AM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Nobody has said that.
posted by ardgedee at 11:44 AM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by ardgedee at 11:44 AM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
One of the good things about free software is at least my use of emacs isn't giving RMS any money.
I've worked in tech (SV startups and then Big Tech) for decades, and luckily people like RMS and the HN crowd may be loud on the internet but are not actually very common in practice. I've run into a few but that's over almost 25 years in the industry (some of this may also be due to avoiding companies with obviously toxic founders like Uber).
RMS has, through his own actions, long passed any point of relevance or usefulness in the industry, despite his early work.
posted by thefoxgod at 11:45 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I've worked in tech (SV startups and then Big Tech) for decades, and luckily people like RMS and the HN crowd may be loud on the internet but are not actually very common in practice. I've run into a few but that's over almost 25 years in the industry (some of this may also be due to avoiding companies with obviously toxic founders like Uber).
RMS has, through his own actions, long passed any point of relevance or usefulness in the industry, despite his early work.
posted by thefoxgod at 11:45 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
The real hook of the ND thing is that it demands empathy for the perpetrator while erasing the victim. It's bullshit and"hyper- logical" tech bros know it.
posted by klanawa at 11:47 AM on March 24, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 11:47 AM on March 24, 2021 [14 favorites]
The latest Hurd release was December 2016.
There was a Hurd release?
posted by acb at 11:48 AM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
There was a Hurd release?
posted by acb at 11:48 AM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
Lobsters is a pretty good alternative to HN.
Unfortunately, they're saddled with the fact that their name is also what Jordan Peterson space-monkeys call themselves.
posted by acb at 11:48 AM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately, they're saddled with the fact that their name is also what Jordan Peterson space-monkeys call themselves.
posted by acb at 11:48 AM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
It speaks for a portion with significant clout and voice, and we should not pretend otherwise.
I can guarantee that I've built products you know, and almost guarantee that I've build some you love, and Sam, Paul, and rest of Hacker News can eternally go fuck themselves.
posted by sideshow at 11:50 AM on March 24, 2021 [27 favorites]
I can guarantee that I've built products you know, and almost guarantee that I've build some you love, and Sam, Paul, and rest of Hacker News can eternally go fuck themselves.
posted by sideshow at 11:50 AM on March 24, 2021 [27 favorites]
gcc, originally the GNU C compiler, was a very important part of early GNU software, and it's still a very important compiler over all. clang is a newer C compiler, part of the LLVM project, and it is not GPL licensed, which is politically and technically important (it's fairly hard to use GCC as a back-end for a new compiler; LLVM is explicitly designed to serve as a back-end for new languages).
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 11:53 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 11:53 AM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
But, to get back to subject at hand: I've been involved with free software in one sense or another since 94. First as a teenager hanging out with the Los Angeles area LUGs via my father and his coworkers/friends, and then in my professional life since 1999. RSM and his crew have been insufferable since the beginning.
Watch Revolution OS (Jesus, it's 20 years old already) and tell me you don't wish you could punch him right through screen.
posted by sideshow at 11:57 AM on March 24, 2021 [16 favorites]
Watch Revolution OS (Jesus, it's 20 years old already) and tell me you don't wish you could punch him right through screen.
posted by sideshow at 11:57 AM on March 24, 2021 [16 favorites]
"Ethical" is really on kind of the same linguistic drift path that "literal" is on, isn't it. Soon, if not already, the term means both what it traditionally meant and its exact opposite simultaneously.
See also "Rational/rationalist".
Watch Revolution OS (Jesus, it's 20 years old already) and tell me you don't wish you could punch him right through screen.
Well now the goddamn "Free Software Song" is stuck in my head again.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:00 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
See also "Rational/rationalist".
Watch Revolution OS (Jesus, it's 20 years old already) and tell me you don't wish you could punch him right through screen.
Well now the goddamn "Free Software Song" is stuck in my head again.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:00 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
The only way the "neurodivergent" thing could be in any way relevant is if all you care about is making moral judgements on RMS rather than about protecting people from harm.
I have really appreciated the autistic techs speaking up on Twitter or elsewhere talking about how (of course) there is nothing inherent about being neurodivergent that makes you a serial harasser of women, end of story. It wasn't just that RMS was neurodivergent, it was that his completely anti-social behavior wasn't at all dealt with or managed by other people within the organization at any point in time and instead you had women just putting plants in their offices (because they knew RMS didn't like them, and it was an open secret that he was a creep and that no one could somehow do anything about this) to keep him away from him. Awful.
posted by jessamyn at 12:01 PM on March 24, 2021 [51 favorites]
I have really appreciated the autistic techs speaking up on Twitter or elsewhere talking about how (of course) there is nothing inherent about being neurodivergent that makes you a serial harasser of women, end of story. It wasn't just that RMS was neurodivergent, it was that his completely anti-social behavior wasn't at all dealt with or managed by other people within the organization at any point in time and instead you had women just putting plants in their offices (because they knew RMS didn't like them, and it was an open secret that he was a creep and that no one could somehow do anything about this) to keep him away from him. Awful.
posted by jessamyn at 12:01 PM on March 24, 2021 [51 favorites]
Imagine what the tech world would be like if MIT had started showing some moral leadership about 40 years ago.
This. Think about all the people with talent who have been pushed out or never been able to contribute to their fullest extent by sexist, racist techbros. All so one asshole who was perceived to have a bit more talent could stick around.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:03 PM on March 24, 2021 [42 favorites]
This. Think about all the people with talent who have been pushed out or never been able to contribute to their fullest extent by sexist, racist techbros. All so one asshole who was perceived to have a bit more talent could stick around.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:03 PM on March 24, 2021 [42 favorites]
clang is a newer C compiler, part of the LLVM project, and it is not GPL licensed, which is politically and technically important
This is where we also have to go off into the licensing weeds and point out that most corporations are just fine with GPLv2 but won't touch GPLv3 due to the patent clause, which is probably the biggest reason why Apple sponsored the development of Clang. Notably, Linux is GPLv2 and would arguably never have achieved its current popularity had its license had the patent clause.
posted by Slothrup at 12:10 PM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
This is where we also have to go off into the licensing weeds and point out that most corporations are just fine with GPLv2 but won't touch GPLv3 due to the patent clause, which is probably the biggest reason why Apple sponsored the development of Clang. Notably, Linux is GPLv2 and would arguably never have achieved its current popularity had its license had the patent clause.
posted by Slothrup at 12:10 PM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm just checking: is "neurodivergent" an acceptable term? Or does it have insulting connotations?
I'm a college prof and interested in using an appropriately sensitive and respectful term to describe students (in appropriate settings) that seem like they might be on the spectrum.
I'm careful to not imply that I am qualified to diagnose autism, but there are times when it is necessary to communicate to admin folks (particularly when we are discussing appropriate interventions/accommodations) when I have a student who "occasionally seems a little neurodivergent".
I could post an AskMe, but it seems directly relevant to this discussion.
posted by darkstar at 12:24 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm a college prof and interested in using an appropriately sensitive and respectful term to describe students (in appropriate settings) that seem like they might be on the spectrum.
I'm careful to not imply that I am qualified to diagnose autism, but there are times when it is necessary to communicate to admin folks (particularly when we are discussing appropriate interventions/accommodations) when I have a student who "occasionally seems a little neurodivergent".
I could post an AskMe, but it seems directly relevant to this discussion.
posted by darkstar at 12:24 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also, and this might be a tricky point so hopefully I don't miss something in it, but RMS has stated that he doesn't believe himself to be neurodivergent, "I wonder about it, but that's as far as it goes," he said. "Now, it's clear I do not have [Asperger's] -- I don't have most of the characteristics of that. (old article, quoted as written), so above-and-beyond everybody above's well-stated points about how it's not an excuse, I don't know that that's helpful.
(Not that I think people here are doing that, but as noted above, his defenders at that orange hellsite do think it relevant, so.)
posted by CrystalDave at 12:25 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
(Not that I think people here are doing that, but as noted above, his defenders at that orange hellsite do think it relevant, so.)
posted by CrystalDave at 12:25 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Neurodivergent is just a neutral qualifier for a disposition of people on the aut. spectrum or of atypical neurology. (Yes?)
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:26 PM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:26 PM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't want to be too flippant about this but I love the witchy subtext of keeping plants in your office as a ward against a particularly creepy man.
posted by traveler_ at 12:31 PM on March 24, 2021 [49 favorites]
posted by traveler_ at 12:31 PM on March 24, 2021 [49 favorites]
We talked about these phrasings a bit in the disability MetaTalk threads and here's one way to think about it: "Neuroatypical means that a person's brain works differently than society expects. Neurodivergent uses the social model of disability to say: that's not a bad thing, and if this person is disabled, it's only because society doesn't accommodate them."
posted by brainwane at 12:33 PM on March 24, 2021 [26 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 12:33 PM on March 24, 2021 [26 favorites]
I love those definitions. They're not only kind, but dead on accurate and subtly empowering.
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:36 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by firstdaffodils at 12:36 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
Stallman's "Anti-Glossary" contains this gem: "I don't think that rape should be treated like stealing a kiss, so I reject the term "sexual assault" completely."
What the fuck does that even mean?
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:42 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
What the fuck does that even mean?
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:42 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
(Thank you, firstdaffodils and brainwane!)
posted by darkstar at 12:43 PM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by darkstar at 12:43 PM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
What the fuck does that even mean?
It means Stallman thinks there's a certain degree of sexual assault that should be treated as a normal, accepted part of everyday life.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:44 PM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
It means Stallman thinks there's a certain degree of sexual assault that should be treated as a normal, accepted part of everyday life.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:44 PM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
It means Stallman thinks there's a certain degree of sexual assault that should be treated as a normal, accepted part of everyday life.
Like child rape if the adult can convince an impressionable kid to fuck.
And no, I'm not joking. THIS IS WHAT RMS ACTUALLY BELIEVES.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:48 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
Like child rape if the adult can convince an impressionable kid to fuck.
And no, I'm not joking. THIS IS WHAT RMS ACTUALLY BELIEVES.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:48 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
I have really appreciated the autistic techs speaking up on Twitter or elsewhere talking about how (of course) there is nothing inherent about being neurodivergent that makes you a serial harasser of women
I think it's also worth noting that a) neurodivergent women are a thing that exist and b) neurodivergent women have been almost certainly been put in the difficult position of navigating Stallman's behavior and the cult of worship around him. If someone cares about the rights and well-being of neurodivergent people, they should probably care about that, too.
I can't speak to being neurodivergent, but as a woman with mental health issues, I get pretty infuriated whenever I see someone presuming to speak on behalf of me and people like me in order to excuse away decades of behavior by a serial harasser who occupies a powerful position.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:56 PM on March 24, 2021 [30 favorites]
I think it's also worth noting that a) neurodivergent women are a thing that exist and b) neurodivergent women have been almost certainly been put in the difficult position of navigating Stallman's behavior and the cult of worship around him. If someone cares about the rights and well-being of neurodivergent people, they should probably care about that, too.
I can't speak to being neurodivergent, but as a woman with mental health issues, I get pretty infuriated whenever I see someone presuming to speak on behalf of me and people like me in order to excuse away decades of behavior by a serial harasser who occupies a powerful position.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:56 PM on March 24, 2021 [30 favorites]
THIS IS WHAT RMS ACTUALLY BELIEVES.
Yikes. For real?
Did a little searching around his anti-glossary and website. That dude is just a mass of contradictions. Some very progressive/leftist views and some... not.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:01 PM on March 24, 2021
Yikes. For real?
Did a little searching around his anti-glossary and website. That dude is just a mass of contradictions. Some very progressive/leftist views and some... not.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:01 PM on March 24, 2021
As a rebuttal for the 'maybe being ND means Stallman did nothing wrong' argument from Hacker News ppl etc, I'll dig up the ever useful foot-stepping analogy.
"I remember being walked around campus by an upperclassman getting advice during my freshman year at MIT. "Look at all the plants in her office," referring to a professor. "All the women CSAIL professors keep massive amounts of foliage" s/he said. "Stallman really hates plants."
And the whole defending child rape thing, I can't even. A sample of his past comments.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:08 PM on March 24, 2021 [61 favorites]
If you step on my foot, you need to get off my foot.Stallman used to constantly ask young female developers at cons out on a date, often as his first and only interaction with them. When told to cut it out, he started handing out 'pleasure cards'. When told to cut *that* out, he'd invite women outside the con, then hand them the card, on the basis that it was no longer technically at the con.
If you step on my foot without meaning to, you need to get off my foot.
If you step on my foot without realizing it, you need to get off my foot.
If everyone in your culture steps on feet, your culture is horrible, and you need to get off my foot.
If you have foot-stepping disease, and it makes you unaware you’re stepping on feet, you need to get off my foot. If an event has rules designed to keep people from stepping on feet, you need to follow them. If you think that even with the rules, you won’t be able to avoid stepping on people’s feet, absent yourself from the event until you work something out.
If you’re a serial foot-stepper, and you feel you’re entitled to step on people’s feet because you’re just that awesome and they’re not really people anyway, you’re a bad person and you don’t get to use any of those excuses, limited as they are. And moreover, you need to get off my foot.
See, that’s why I don’t get the focus on classifying harassers and figuring out their motives. The victims are just as harassed either way.
"I remember being walked around campus by an upperclassman getting advice during my freshman year at MIT. "Look at all the plants in her office," referring to a professor. "All the women CSAIL professors keep massive amounts of foliage" s/he said. "Stallman really hates plants."
And the whole defending child rape thing, I can't even. A sample of his past comments.
"I think it is morally absurd to define 'rape' in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17," Stallman wrote.He is a grade A creep, idolised by a whole generation of grade A creeps, and it's done so much damage to so many people, as well as the loss of all the code they never got to write because of RMS and creeps like him infesting tech. Fuck the FSF board for letting him anywhere near the org again and now hunkering down and trying to pretend they didn't do anything wrong, I hope it ends up pushing them into utter irrelevence.
"I think that everyone age 14 or above ought to take part in sex, though not indiscriminately," Stallman wrote in a 2003 post about the UK banning minors from having access to sexually explicit material. "Some people are ready earlier."
"It is unnatural for humans to abstain from sex past puberty, and while I wouldn't try to pressure anyone to participate, I certainly encourage everyone to do so," he added.
In 2011, he criticized laws against child pornography. "'Child pornography' might be a photo of yourself or your lover that the two of you shared," he wrote. "It might be an image of a sexually mature teenager that any normal adult would find attractive. What's heinous about having such a photo?"
"Even when it is uncontroversial to call the subject depicted a "child", that is no excuse for censorship," he added. "Having a photo or drawing does not hurt anyone, so and if you or I think it is disgusting, that is no excuse for censorship."
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:08 PM on March 24, 2021 [61 favorites]
Well now the goddamn "Free Software Song" is stuck in my head again.
Why do I have a vision of Sideshow Bob in a naval uniform singing this song as he slowly sinks underwater...?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:13 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Why do I have a vision of Sideshow Bob in a naval uniform singing this song as he slowly sinks underwater...?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:13 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
HN doesn't speak for the "Tech Community".Come for the news, run screaming for the politics.
They idolize him as a hero of ND behavior and not having to be accountable for their own history of misogyny and abusive behavior.The tech nerd use of “ND” is rapidly becoming one of my biggest peeves. It’s so vague it doesn’t imply or require any specific diagnosis, making it an even weaker version of the self-diagnosed Asperger’s of a decade ago, but we’re still supposed to accept it as a blanket excuse for behavior actual diagnosed special ed kids don’t get away with.
The issue with badly-behaved nerds has always been that they spend a lot of their lives being poorly socialized, bullied, kept socially disempowered, and while that can be awful for them, a lot of them emerge from that experience with the incredibly wrong idea that their own behavior can never do harm. Their abusive behavior doesn’t count, as they see it, because they have mentally put themselves on the opposite side of a moral line from their childhood bullies. When you’ve made it a part of your identity that you’re always “punching up,” every punch becomes righteous. Every act of sexual harassment is a sort of “Schroedinger’s Asshole” event. You’re not supposed to take offense because obviously they’re just mostly-harmless nerds. Surely you get the joke, I mean, unless you’re into it...
This is why nerd types can (perhaps paradoxically) be far more dangerous than a more stereotypical abuser. They’ll shamelessly do everything the stereotypical abuser does, but then be absolutely stunned and offended that anyone would think badly of them for it, in much the same vein as white conservative idiots attempting to overthrow the government and being astonished to learn they can’t just go back to work the next morning like it was a weekend fishing trip. This lack of self-awareness combined with the “broken stair” effect results in incredible toxicity in nerd communities that can go unaddressed for decades.
Stallman’s fiefdoms, first at MIT and then at FSF, have been legendary examples for their entire existence. It’s not like his behavior has only recently come to light. He was notorious thirty years ago.
Last decade’s self-diagnosed “Asperger’s” and today’s self-diagnosed “neurodivergence” are increasingly transparent rationalizations for shitty behavior, to sustain their delusional self-characterization as heroes of their own stories. There is never so great a villain as someone who is convinced he is a hero.
posted by gelfin at 1:22 PM on March 24, 2021 [23 favorites]
Mod note: Comment and a few brief replies removed. People being critical of RMS's long and documented legacy of crappy behavior is not an issue that requires both-sides treatment. If you have concerns about the guidelines or moderation, bring it to the contact form.
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:26 PM on March 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 1:26 PM on March 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
Aaagh. Sorry for the typos.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:27 PM on March 24, 2021
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:27 PM on March 24, 2021
The sociology of this whole issue is crazy. I have personally been witness to RMS’s totally inappropriate behavior towards young women TWICE, 15 years apart. Unfortunately the second time through I was made responsible for him: driving him around and having to babysit him after he assaulted a female intern. On both occasions he was not only remorseless but literally couldn’t be made to understand that touching a women, cornering a woman, aggressively propositioning, etc was wrong. To be fair I feel like this might be due to mental illness rather than malice, but that’s hardly the point. Where are these defenders coming from? Why is there such aggressive mistrust of the many, many, many reports of his behavior? He is a creepy antisocial mess of a human, and he has been this way for decades. If he worked for me I would have fired him a thousand times over. He doesn’t deserve a job where he interacts with the public. Nothing is owed to him. He needs to get help for his low grade psychopathy or narcissism or whatever the hell is up with him. Get him the f*ck out of the FSF.
posted by n9 at 1:37 PM on March 24, 2021 [57 favorites]
posted by n9 at 1:37 PM on March 24, 2021 [57 favorites]
Where are these defenders coming from? Why is there such aggressive mistrust of the many, many, many reports of his behavior?
It's far, far easier, mentally and emotionally, to defend someone else's behavior and deride their accusers than it is to examine and process the fact that activity that you may have also engaged in ("stealing kisses" or incessantly asking out coworkers) was likely to be harmful.
posted by hanov3r at 1:42 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
It's far, far easier, mentally and emotionally, to defend someone else's behavior and deride their accusers than it is to examine and process the fact that activity that you may have also engaged in ("stealing kisses" or incessantly asking out coworkers) was likely to be harmful.
posted by hanov3r at 1:42 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
With this decision the FSF has begun to marginalize itself and will cease to matter in a year or so and probably cease to exist shortly thereafter. RMS did some good work a long time ago, but then again Michael Jackson made some good records a while ago too. Neither track record excuses or justifies their behaviour towards other people.
The whole ND thing is bollocks they are in effect saying saying "only my rules are important, your rules are inconvenient to me so I will disregard them". Pandering to this gives you sociopaths.
For now, deplatform the FSF and RMS and leave them to decay in isolation.
posted by epo at 1:51 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
The whole ND thing is bollocks they are in effect saying saying "only my rules are important, your rules are inconvenient to me so I will disregard them". Pandering to this gives you sociopaths.
For now, deplatform the FSF and RMS and leave them to decay in isolation.
posted by epo at 1:51 PM on March 24, 2021 [3 favorites]
Last decade’s self-diagnosed “Asperger’s” and today’s self-diagnosed “neurodivergence” are increasingly transparent rationalizations for shitty behavior, to sustain their delusional self-characterization as heroes of their own stories.
When discussing the people who use neurodivergence as a shield from criticism of their misogyny, let's not throw under the bus the very many marginalised people (including a lot of women and people of colour) who have had to self-diagnose their neurodivergences because their families, educators, communities, or medical institutions have prevented them from accessing professional diagnosis.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 1:51 PM on March 24, 2021 [21 favorites]
When discussing the people who use neurodivergence as a shield from criticism of their misogyny, let's not throw under the bus the very many marginalised people (including a lot of women and people of colour) who have had to self-diagnose their neurodivergences because their families, educators, communities, or medical institutions have prevented them from accessing professional diagnosis.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 1:51 PM on March 24, 2021 [21 favorites]
One of the best examples I have seen of how neurodivergence in a person can contribute to behaviour that others find off-putting (and definitely crosses the line for women in terms of what is appropriate) involved a retired dentist whose life kind of went off the rails after his wife passed away. I think she was a steadying influence. Long story short, he would misinterpret some of the slightest niceties or basic social cues and exhibit pronounced expressions of interest in women. I think he really wanted to simply replace the emptiness left by his deceased wife, he would e.g. show up on doorsteps unannounced and for some women it was alarming. His membership in one community group.. they all knew him, they would take new members aside and sort of explain things.. and also set him in his place: "(Bob), lay off. That is not appropriate." Very blunt and firm about it. In the meantime, he could engage in a fairly healthy social thing with group meetings, he showed up at every potluck (always the same contribution: a loaf of bread, often not thawed) and people accepted him. To use neurodivergence to distract from real shitty behaviour is something inexcusable. We need to understand why some people have certain behaviours, but we don't excuse certain behaviours regardless of any contributing factors. We can be compassionate without being blind.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:52 PM on March 24, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 1:52 PM on March 24, 2021 [18 favorites]
Last decade’s self-diagnosed “Asperger’s” and today’s self-diagnosed “neurodivergence” are increasingly transparent rationalizations for shitty behavior
It has been established at some length in this thread that there is no connection between neurodivergence and Stallman's behavior, and also that Stallman by his own account is neither self- nor other-diagnosed. So perhaps those who want to opine about how the self-diagnosed (and anyone else who doesn't meet your particular criteria) are Not Really Disabled could go have that discussion somewhere else?
Or better yet, don't.
posted by Not A Thing at 1:54 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
It has been established at some length in this thread that there is no connection between neurodivergence and Stallman's behavior, and also that Stallman by his own account is neither self- nor other-diagnosed. So perhaps those who want to opine about how the self-diagnosed (and anyone else who doesn't meet your particular criteria) are Not Really Disabled could go have that discussion somewhere else?
Or better yet, don't.
posted by Not A Thing at 1:54 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
Amazing seeing people throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, viz: "RMS is bad, and so are copyleft and the GPL."
The baby in this example is the GPLv3 license, which is purpose built by RSM to ensure everyone follows his, in my opinion, insane ideals.
In RSM's view, having any government, crime syndicate, or other motivated nefarious party have full control into your life is a small price to pay in world where "software must be free!".
GPLv3 specifically demands that any software that uses even a single line of licensed code has to provide a runnable source of the entire system, including any private keys that might be necessary. GPLv2 left it kinda ambiguous, but GPLv3 is very clear that open means open.
Your phone have encryption the prevents the FBI looking at your communications? Fuck you, RSM says that's too bad. Your phone provider have servers that securely hold the compromising nude pictures you sent your girlfriend? Fuck you, that blackmail by organized crime isn't to happen by itself, etc.
Adding GPLv3 code to our app is a fireable offense at just about any company that has IP lawyers. And the other companies just have shitty lawyers.
posted by sideshow at 1:58 PM on March 24, 2021 [30 favorites]
The baby in this example is the GPLv3 license, which is purpose built by RSM to ensure everyone follows his, in my opinion, insane ideals.
In RSM's view, having any government, crime syndicate, or other motivated nefarious party have full control into your life is a small price to pay in world where "software must be free!".
GPLv3 specifically demands that any software that uses even a single line of licensed code has to provide a runnable source of the entire system, including any private keys that might be necessary. GPLv2 left it kinda ambiguous, but GPLv3 is very clear that open means open.
Your phone have encryption the prevents the FBI looking at your communications? Fuck you, RSM says that's too bad. Your phone provider have servers that securely hold the compromising nude pictures you sent your girlfriend? Fuck you, that blackmail by organized crime isn't to happen by itself, etc.
Adding GPLv3 code to our app is a fireable offense at just about any company that has IP lawyers. And the other companies just have shitty lawyers.
posted by sideshow at 1:58 PM on March 24, 2021 [30 favorites]
I just read Stallman's "Anit-Glossary." Damn that man is tedious. Even when I find I agree with him, he's such a dick about it I want to purposefully use words he doesn't to distance myself from him--and 99% of the people I talk with on a day to day basis have no clue who he is (and I even work in IT). At best, it willfully ignores that breaking down a word SAT-style does not always work, and some disciplines have adopted some language that fits for them, or once fit for them but continues for branding/historical reasons.
This is what I find most annoying about him: he won't even talk to someone unless they use his language or use his preferred toolset (remember: he wouldn't even read the charges until someone converted it from Google Docs). He expects the real world to bend to him, and has a group of enablers.
There are plenty of people with RMS's ideals who aren't total creeps and maybe it's time for one of them to lead.
I think this is what most on the right don't get about "cancel culture." Let's push aside an abuser, racist, homophobe, religious bigot, or total creep, and let someone who can add value and not be those things. It's especially nice if stepping aside a voice that was suppressed by the canceled can fill the void (either an individual or community).
In other words, they can find someone who can advocate for Free Software and not be a creep, pedantic, asshole.
What's more, once people see that you can't be a total creep, etc. and succeed, it will create a whole generation who can function in society.
posted by MrGuilt at 2:09 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is what I find most annoying about him: he won't even talk to someone unless they use his language or use his preferred toolset (remember: he wouldn't even read the charges until someone converted it from Google Docs). He expects the real world to bend to him, and has a group of enablers.
There are plenty of people with RMS's ideals who aren't total creeps and maybe it's time for one of them to lead.
I think this is what most on the right don't get about "cancel culture." Let's push aside an abuser, racist, homophobe, religious bigot, or total creep, and let someone who can add value and not be those things. It's especially nice if stepping aside a voice that was suppressed by the canceled can fill the void (either an individual or community).
In other words, they can find someone who can advocate for Free Software and not be a creep, pedantic, asshole.
What's more, once people see that you can't be a total creep, etc. and succeed, it will create a whole generation who can function in society.
posted by MrGuilt at 2:09 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
sideshow: Is there a reason you're writing "RSM"? You've done it consistently in two comments so it's apparently not a typo. My only mental association for that is Regimental Sergeant-Major which, whatever else he may be, Stallman is not.
posted by Slogby at 2:17 PM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Slogby at 2:17 PM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
A thread from @georgialyle, who used to work at the FSF, includes:
posted by brainwane at 2:25 PM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
I worked at the FSF from 2015-2018 & was shop steward for a while. I recall having a months (MONTHS) long conversation with ED John Sullivan about why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s needed to be removed from http://gnu.org. rms didn't get why it was harmful....Molly de Blanc, who is the first signatory on the open letter, writes:
The thing that randos who have never had to actually work with rms don't understand is that MANY people who deeply respected him tried to help him learn to not objectify women, shout over others at Libreplanet as if it was his birthday party, stop shit like 'emacs virgins'....
One final thing: do not shit on FSF staff about this. They didn't ask for this, they weren't notified in advance of rms' apparently impromptu announcement, they labor for the organization and for the community every day. Put pressure on the board and the executive director.
Inspired by @georgialyle and others: I worked at the @FSF for just over two years (as a contractor then an employee). During this time I was an FSF associate member and donor. On my own time, I spent hours reading Richard's writing, editing it, and talking with him about issues.I know and trust Molly and Georgia.
The truth is, in spite of knowing he was problematic, I generally liked Richard as a person. I thought most of his jokes were pretty funny and we liked the same books.
This is all hard for me because we're talking about someone who could have been a friend, people I care about, and a cause I have spent my adult life dedicated to and suffered greatly for.
But, too many people came to me with stories about him behaving unacceptably to women. Jokes stepped over the line. I saw what working with him did to people -- including me. We spent hours talking about transphobia, ableism, and other issues and nothing changed.
posted by brainwane at 2:25 PM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
In RSM's view, having any government, crime syndicate, or other motivated nefarious party have full control into your life is a small price to pay in world where "software must be free!".
Your phone have encryption the prevents the FBI looking at your communications? Fuck you, RSM says that's too bad. Your phone provider have servers that securely hold the compromising nude pictures you sent your girlfriend? Fuck you, that blackmail by organized crime isn't to happen by itself, etc.
Steve Ballmer has logged on.
This is complete horseshit FUD, in case anyone reading this thread is unaware of what free software and copyleft are.
Alos, the GPLv3 was a collaborative effort, written by multiple volunteers.
posted by Bangaioh at 2:39 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
Your phone have encryption the prevents the FBI looking at your communications? Fuck you, RSM says that's too bad. Your phone provider have servers that securely hold the compromising nude pictures you sent your girlfriend? Fuck you, that blackmail by organized crime isn't to happen by itself, etc.
Steve Ballmer has logged on.
This is complete horseshit FUD, in case anyone reading this thread is unaware of what free software and copyleft are.
Alos, the GPLv3 was a collaborative effort, written by multiple volunteers.
posted by Bangaioh at 2:39 PM on March 24, 2021 [13 favorites]
Steve Ballmer has logged on.
Yes, because what we need to be addressing in a thread about someone's decades-long history of sexual assault & abuse is *actually* replaying corporate-vs-underdog slapfights from ~2 decades back.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:53 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Yes, because what we need to be addressing in a thread about someone's decades-long history of sexual assault & abuse is *actually* replaying corporate-vs-underdog slapfights from ~2 decades back.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:53 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
GPLv3, patents and offtopic:
>This is where we also have to go off into the licensing weeds and point out that most corporations are just fine with GPLv2 but won't touch GPLv3 due to the patent clause, which is probably the biggest reason why Apple sponsored the development of Clang. Notably, Linux is GPLv2 and would arguably never have achieved its current popularity had its license had the patent clause.
Anyone from the Open Invention Network want to speak up about its role in mutually-assured destruction that does more protection of a bunch of GPLv2 projects than anything about v2 versus v3?
posted by k3ninho at 2:53 PM on March 24, 2021
>This is where we also have to go off into the licensing weeds and point out that most corporations are just fine with GPLv2 but won't touch GPLv3 due to the patent clause, which is probably the biggest reason why Apple sponsored the development of Clang. Notably, Linux is GPLv2 and would arguably never have achieved its current popularity had its license had the patent clause.
Anyone from the Open Invention Network want to speak up about its role in mutually-assured destruction that does more protection of a bunch of GPLv2 projects than anything about v2 versus v3?
posted by k3ninho at 2:53 PM on March 24, 2021
Mod note: Y'all, absolutely move on from the GPL license argument, it's adding nothing to this actual discussion and can be had anytime anywhere if you really want it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:00 PM on March 24, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 3:00 PM on March 24, 2021 [16 favorites]
I love Stallman's anti-glossary. I'm a PoC, and reading his entry on why "PoC" is a problematic term, I actually mostly agree with criticisms and find his way of explaining it hilarious. And his solution in the same entry is pretty good.
So I think RMS's political writings on the balance have serious value, and I also think his radicalism about computing is still ahead of its time. Other open source ideologies just aren't on the same political plane of thinking. That said, RMS is an old white guy and cancelling him for his misogyny (and preferably also the FSF board who made this ridiculous decision of reinstating him) is also the right thing to do.
posted by polymodus at 3:14 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
So I think RMS's political writings on the balance have serious value, and I also think his radicalism about computing is still ahead of its time. Other open source ideologies just aren't on the same political plane of thinking. That said, RMS is an old white guy and cancelling him for his misogyny (and preferably also the FSF board who made this ridiculous decision of reinstating him) is also the right thing to do.
posted by polymodus at 3:14 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
why racist & sexist 'hacker humor' from the 90s
I love fortune, but I wish, I wish, I wish the library were cleaned up and updated.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:16 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
I love fortune, but I wish, I wish, I wish the library were cleaned up and updated.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:16 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Stallman has done a lot of worse things but his "lifestyle" page where he repeatedly refers to rap music as "c...rap" is undeniably the lamest
posted by theodolite at 3:30 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 3:30 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
(RE: the discussion of neurodivergent from earlier in the thread. It does not equal autism or being on the spectrum. It can refer to that but not only that. I consider myself neurodivergent, for example, because I have ADHD, with the expensive documentation of exhaustive testing to prove it. That is all.)
posted by Bella Donna at 3:57 PM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:57 PM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
Stallman has done a lot of worse things but his "lifestyle" page where he repeatedly refers to rap music as "c...rap" is undeniably the lamest
Good lord. That page is one of the worst things I've ever read. The complaints about rap. The multi-paragraph rant about the evils of wearing a tie to a job interview. His boycott against Amtrak. It's like someone took the phrase "well, actually..." and extended it ad infinitum.
Aside from his numerous gaffes and moral shortcomings as discussed in this thread, I can't think of a worse person for a figurehead position. The public face of your organization should make you like them, not make you want to hit them in the face with a pie.
posted by unreason at 4:08 PM on March 24, 2021 [16 favorites]
Good lord. That page is one of the worst things I've ever read. The complaints about rap. The multi-paragraph rant about the evils of wearing a tie to a job interview. His boycott against Amtrak. It's like someone took the phrase "well, actually..." and extended it ad infinitum.
Aside from his numerous gaffes and moral shortcomings as discussed in this thread, I can't think of a worse person for a figurehead position. The public face of your organization should make you like them, not make you want to hit them in the face with a pie.
posted by unreason at 4:08 PM on March 24, 2021 [16 favorites]
So that’s what “RMS error” means...
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:20 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 4:20 PM on March 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
From the lifestyle page, close to the end "They would be happier if they did as I do". Which I think about sums it up, as a mindset.
posted by true at 4:38 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by true at 4:38 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh man, that lifestyle page...
Not all my shirts are red or purple, but many are. I like those colors.
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT, DUDE
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:39 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
Not all my shirts are red or purple, but many are. I like those colors.
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT, DUDE
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:39 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
His lifestyle page is one big eyeroll. The bit that really stuck out to me is the final bullet point in his rant against cell phones: "When I need to call someone, I ask someone nearby to let me make a call."
There's so much privilege and arrogance to unpack there. Yikes.
posted by ErikaB at 4:43 PM on March 24, 2021 [21 favorites]
There's so much privilege and arrogance to unpack there. Yikes.
posted by ErikaB at 4:43 PM on March 24, 2021 [21 favorites]
"They would be happier if they did as I do". Which I think about sums it up, as a mindset.
Ugh, now I'm pondering what it would be like to do as he does and kicking it around.
I'd be absolutely miserable if I was Richard Stallman or modeled my behavior after Richard Stallman. I mean let's just start with the thing about plants, with a whole lot of vigorous this behavorial shit right here and sandwich all that on the other end with, ick, emacs.
When I was much younger I kind of did this thing on some levels, like "Man the whole world would be happier if they could chill out like I do", and it's an easy, seductive and solipsistic and downright arrogant way of thinking about anything or anyone.
And it's super common with the smart and crypto-technocratic folks.
Further, if everyone actually did love all the things I loved to do I would be miserable because the bike trails would be even more clogged and there wouldn't be anywhere to sit on a beach or in a forest and be alone with my thoughts and self.
To close this TEDx talk I would like to coin a new technology axiom inspired by emacs:
"If your software user interface resembles Nethack you're doing it wrong."
posted by loquacious at 5:01 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Ugh, now I'm pondering what it would be like to do as he does and kicking it around.
I'd be absolutely miserable if I was Richard Stallman or modeled my behavior after Richard Stallman. I mean let's just start with the thing about plants, with a whole lot of vigorous this behavorial shit right here and sandwich all that on the other end with, ick, emacs.
When I was much younger I kind of did this thing on some levels, like "Man the whole world would be happier if they could chill out like I do", and it's an easy, seductive and solipsistic and downright arrogant way of thinking about anything or anyone.
And it's super common with the smart and crypto-technocratic folks.
Further, if everyone actually did love all the things I loved to do I would be miserable because the bike trails would be even more clogged and there wouldn't be anywhere to sit on a beach or in a forest and be alone with my thoughts and self.
To close this TEDx talk I would like to coin a new technology axiom inspired by emacs:
"If your software user interface resembles Nethack you're doing it wrong."
posted by loquacious at 5:01 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Simple sentences are almost as rare in my speech as in this writing.What an insufferably self-important little prick he is.
He doesn't realize how supremely fortunate he is that so few people have the sheer tolerance for tedium it would take to be able to actually listen to what he says or read his writings.
posted by jamjam at 5:15 PM on March 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
sideshow: Is there a reason you're writing "RSM"?
Sigh, work related command that I typed thousands of times over the last decade. Should be RMS for Richard Matthew Stallman.
I actually had to go back and fix the "RSM" I originally typed up there. That's how ingrained it is.
And why RMS instead of Stallman, Richard, or whatever? I don't know, that's how he started out. Just like how fellow open source software creep Eric Steven Raymond is known as ESR.
posted by sideshow at 5:15 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
Sigh, work related command that I typed thousands of times over the last decade. Should be RMS for Richard Matthew Stallman.
I actually had to go back and fix the "RSM" I originally typed up there. That's how ingrained it is.
And why RMS instead of Stallman, Richard, or whatever? I don't know, that's how he started out. Just like how fellow open source software creep Eric Steven Raymond is known as ESR.
posted by sideshow at 5:15 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
"If your software user interface resembles Nethack you're doing it wrong."
Well, actually, Nethack uses the vim direction keys, so ok, ok, I'll leave...
posted by kaibutsu at 5:28 PM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
Well, actually, Nethack uses the vim direction keys, so ok, ok, I'll leave...
posted by kaibutsu at 5:28 PM on March 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
I've said this elsewhere, but: The GPL matters. Arguably more than ever. The right to read still matters. Being able to see into and agency over the software that affects our lives matters more every day. But the FSF doesn't matter and Stallman doesn't matter.
He, and that organization, haven't changed a single person's mind in 20 years. People who agree with him already agree with him, people who don't have not been swayed, and as an advocacy organization they're a sideshow, an irrelevant failure.
And sometime in the last two months they had a board meeting where they decided if they were going to try to become a functional advocacy organization with a mission again, or if they were going to go back to being a personality cult sheltering an abuser. And they voted to be a personality cult.
So, we're done here. There's nothing here worth salvaging.
posted by mhoye at 5:29 PM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
He, and that organization, haven't changed a single person's mind in 20 years. People who agree with him already agree with him, people who don't have not been swayed, and as an advocacy organization they're a sideshow, an irrelevant failure.
And sometime in the last two months they had a board meeting where they decided if they were going to try to become a functional advocacy organization with a mission again, or if they were going to go back to being a personality cult sheltering an abuser. And they voted to be a personality cult.
So, we're done here. There's nothing here worth salvaging.
posted by mhoye at 5:29 PM on March 24, 2021 [34 favorites]
That’s what RMS stands for? I always thought it was Regrettable Missing Stair.
posted by chrchr at 5:39 PM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 5:39 PM on March 24, 2021 [12 favorites]
I think RMS's political writings on the balance have serious value
I won't hold myself out as any kind of expert on the topic, but I know enough to know that his hot take on what some groups of NA indigenous people have asked to be called would be/is aggressively offensive to a lot of people.
posted by bonehead at 5:41 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
I won't hold myself out as any kind of expert on the topic, but I know enough to know that his hot take on what some groups of NA indigenous people have asked to be called would be/is aggressively offensive to a lot of people.
posted by bonehead at 5:41 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
I love the lifestyle page! I literally Laughed Out Loud when I got to "I am an Atheist, for scientific reasons." Of course! He rants about ties! He doesn't smile for photos! Not all of his shirts are red or purple!
It's too bad this page belongs to a harasser I don't want to give clicks to because the discontented html on a professional white background is delightful.
posted by betweenthebars at 5:41 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's too bad this page belongs to a harasser I don't want to give clicks to because the discontented html on a professional white background is delightful.
posted by betweenthebars at 5:41 PM on March 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Everything mhoye said, and this thread from Luis Villa making a related point: a functional organization would be looking back on GPLv3 (not saying we should reopen that debate in this thread, but it's their literal job to do so) now, but "an org that can’t squarely examine abuse also can’t examine other potential failures."
RMS has hurt a lot of people with his behavior. He has hurt the free software movement because of the people who aren't in it because of his behavior. And less importantly because it's about an organization and not people but still significant, the FSF has done an objectively poor job of serving a useful purpose for many years because everything is always wrapped up in managing this one man's issues.
He has some decades-old ideas about how software should work that barely been updated for the existence of the internet, let alone cloud providers, so FSF has more-or-less completely sat out and been irrelevant to the last decade+ of most major software freedom debates. Does anything on their News page from the past couple years look particularly useful? An April Fools 2020 campaign based around "Free Clippy" from proprietary software? That's a way to show you're really relevant and keeping up with the times.
There are some significant and interesting debates happening right now over what companies like MongoDB and Elastic are doing with SSPL-like licenses and debates over licenses with restrictions like the Hippocratic License. These are really tricky issues centered around trying to restrict some freedoms to try to maximize others. Whatever you think of those issues, that's where the conversation is happening, and the FSF is irrelevant to them.
RMS should not have this job because he's abusive, and abusive behavior should certainly never be tolerated because works of genius are happening, but the organization is unable to fulfill its mission for the exact same reason they're unable to address the abuse.
posted by zachlipton at 6:05 PM on March 24, 2021 [22 favorites]
RMS has hurt a lot of people with his behavior. He has hurt the free software movement because of the people who aren't in it because of his behavior. And less importantly because it's about an organization and not people but still significant, the FSF has done an objectively poor job of serving a useful purpose for many years because everything is always wrapped up in managing this one man's issues.
He has some decades-old ideas about how software should work that barely been updated for the existence of the internet, let alone cloud providers, so FSF has more-or-less completely sat out and been irrelevant to the last decade+ of most major software freedom debates. Does anything on their News page from the past couple years look particularly useful? An April Fools 2020 campaign based around "Free Clippy" from proprietary software? That's a way to show you're really relevant and keeping up with the times.
There are some significant and interesting debates happening right now over what companies like MongoDB and Elastic are doing with SSPL-like licenses and debates over licenses with restrictions like the Hippocratic License. These are really tricky issues centered around trying to restrict some freedoms to try to maximize others. Whatever you think of those issues, that's where the conversation is happening, and the FSF is irrelevant to them.
RMS should not have this job because he's abusive, and abusive behavior should certainly never be tolerated because works of genius are happening, but the organization is unable to fulfill its mission for the exact same reason they're unable to address the abuse.
posted by zachlipton at 6:05 PM on March 24, 2021 [22 favorites]
I've said this elsewhere, but: The GPL matters. Arguably more than ever. The right to read still matters. Being able to see into and agency over the software that affects our lives matters more every day.
That ship has long sailed, with everything moving to web apps/cloud, software and more importantly your data is more opaque than ever.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:08 PM on March 24, 2021
That ship has long sailed, with everything moving to web apps/cloud, software and more importantly your data is more opaque than ever.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:08 PM on March 24, 2021
> I think the tie means, "I will be so subservient as an employee that I will do even totally senseless things just because you tell me to."
I wonder if Stallman wears a covid mask.
posted by smelendez at 7:14 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
I wonder if Stallman wears a covid mask.
posted by smelendez at 7:14 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Last decade’s self-diagnosed “Asperger’s” and today’s self-diagnosed “neurodivergence” are increasingly transparent rationalizations for shitty behavior
and if there isn't vociferous pushback against exactly that kind of horseshit the result will be to make a largely ill-informed public expect shitty behaviour from anybody either self- or other-described as neurodivergent, reinforcing negative preconceptions already associated with any kind of divergence and making the job of turning this into a just world that much harder.
Over my 59 years I've worked in IT and in education, driven taxis, travelled and interacted with a very diverse range of people, and it seems to me that shitty behaviour is completely orthogonal to diversity. There's this weird double hump: about 5% of people are arseholes 95% of the time, 95% of people are arseholes 5% of the time, and these numbers remain pretty stable regardless of any other way to slice a population.
Arsehole behaviour needs to be called out for what it is and appropriate consequences applied. If this results in pissing and moaning about "cancel culture" then it's pretty clear which 5% that's coming from.
posted by flabdablet at 8:18 PM on March 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
and if there isn't vociferous pushback against exactly that kind of horseshit the result will be to make a largely ill-informed public expect shitty behaviour from anybody either self- or other-described as neurodivergent, reinforcing negative preconceptions already associated with any kind of divergence and making the job of turning this into a just world that much harder.
Over my 59 years I've worked in IT and in education, driven taxis, travelled and interacted with a very diverse range of people, and it seems to me that shitty behaviour is completely orthogonal to diversity. There's this weird double hump: about 5% of people are arseholes 95% of the time, 95% of people are arseholes 5% of the time, and these numbers remain pretty stable regardless of any other way to slice a population.
Arsehole behaviour needs to be called out for what it is and appropriate consequences applied. If this results in pissing and moaning about "cancel culture" then it's pretty clear which 5% that's coming from.
posted by flabdablet at 8:18 PM on March 24, 2021 [11 favorites]
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT, DUDE
Feel a little bit weird that people are dragging a guy for posting personal junk on a weirdo personal page from the geocities era. Stallman is a hellacious individual, no idiosyncratic website will change that, and if you put your opinions out in public you can expect to have people complain about them, but weird personal websites are things people usually claim to be sad we’ve lost as the web has become more of a walled garden. If somebody wants to talk about their dearth of t-shirts on a website rather than Twitter, let them.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:30 PM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
Feel a little bit weird that people are dragging a guy for posting personal junk on a weirdo personal page from the geocities era. Stallman is a hellacious individual, no idiosyncratic website will change that, and if you put your opinions out in public you can expect to have people complain about them, but weird personal websites are things people usually claim to be sad we’ve lost as the web has become more of a walled garden. If somebody wants to talk about their dearth of t-shirts on a website rather than Twitter, let them.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:30 PM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
That's a pretty weird cherry to pick from a bonanza of awful, friend. If only it was the t-shirts. Or the website.
posted by n9 at 8:49 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by n9 at 8:49 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
if you put your opinions out in public you can expect to have people complain about themThis is exactly what's happening here. What gives you the idea that the main objections in this thread to Stallman's lifestyle page are that it's on a personal website? It seems obvious to me that people are dunking on the opinions (which are bad) or in some cases the writing (which is also bad).
posted by valrus at 8:58 PM on March 24, 2021
To me the issue is that Stallman has always been defended as an eccentric who's also an ideologue but that his eccentricity was just sort of harmless or endearing. Whether his eccentricity constitutes some sort of definable condition isn't my call to make, but sure, it's easy to speculate. I think people are trying to be kind when the offer armchair diagnoses as it's pretty easy to mock the guy based on his writings. And from trying to not pathologize the guy some people move on to defending his bad behaviours as being part of that. But as others have said, there has to be a line drawn between eccentric behaviour and harmful behaviour.
I truly don't understand why people are still drawn into Stallman's cult of personality (or lack thereof). His thinking on software freedom is trapped in 1990.
posted by GuyZero at 9:28 PM on March 24, 2021
I truly don't understand why people are still drawn into Stallman's cult of personality (or lack thereof). His thinking on software freedom is trapped in 1990.
posted by GuyZero at 9:28 PM on March 24, 2021
Stallman invented half the software I use every day.
Since I haven't found anyone else mention it, I would like to point out that Stallman didn't write Emacs. That was James Gosling.
When Gosling handed off Emacs maintenance to a small company to try to commercialize it (because Gosling wanted to get on with his life), Stallman took the code, replaced most of the copyright notices with his own and called it GNU Emacs. And yeah, he made a lot of improvements to it, but so have a lot of other people.
posted by suetanvil at 9:40 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Since I haven't found anyone else mention it, I would like to point out that Stallman didn't write Emacs. That was James Gosling.
When Gosling handed off Emacs maintenance to a small company to try to commercialize it (because Gosling wanted to get on with his life), Stallman took the code, replaced most of the copyright notices with his own and called it GNU Emacs. And yeah, he made a lot of improvements to it, but so have a lot of other people.
posted by suetanvil at 9:40 PM on March 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
Is anyone else picking up on the stark parallels between this conversation and the one on James Levine?
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:41 PM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:41 PM on March 24, 2021 [7 favorites]
That ship has long sailed, with everything moving to web apps/cloud, software and more importantly your data is more opaque than ever.
And the FSF has done what while all this happened? Basically nothing, because RMS choose not to engage with where software has gone in the past few decades and nobody else at the organization did anything about it. They begrudgingly published the AGPL, which attempted to expand the notion of free software from 80s-era applications to 90s-era CGI scripts, but that's as far as they went. RMS never cared about SaaS because his position was everyone should only run free software on their own computers, so they played just no part in any process to discuss what free software and the freedom to access data meant in the context of what software was increasingly becoming.
For example, they started a campaign around the idea that people were running non-free JavaScript in their browsers and this is bad and should be stopped. They wrote a browser extension that will block all the non-trivial non-free JavaScript on the web and allows users to complain to site owners to demand free software be used instead, along with the hope someone may come along and write free replacement scripts for popular sites (which even if it could be done, would be utterly unmaintainable when it comes to any remotely complex application). Unsurprisingly, no rational person uses this extension, because it utterly and completely makes the modern web unusable, and emailing complaint letters to the owners of every site you visit telling them to release their JS under a free license is crank behavior that does nothing to advance the cause of free software.
That's an astonishingly RMS-centric way of looking at the world and the problem. He was mad his computer was running non-free JavaScript, ranted about it, declared it should be blocked, and some software nobody uses was developed to do that. I'm sure that pleases him, since he's one of a handful of people on earth who might attempt to use the web without JavaScript to make some kind of point, but from the standpoint of an organization that's supposed to be promoting software freedom for the rest of us, it's useless. Meanwhile, there's been a whole really complicated conversation happening about different freedoms and licensing models and copyleft-like mechanisms and data access and ownership for software that runs over networks, a conversation about what free software should mean as applied to the actual modern software most people use today, a conversation that would be better with more non-corporate interests involved, and the FSF has completely disengaged from it, because it's incapable of looking beyond RMS's particular view of the world.
The ideals behind free software matter more than ever, and FSF's leadership has been absent because RMS has seemingly chosen not to engage with any of these problems.
posted by zachlipton at 9:54 PM on March 24, 2021 [35 favorites]
And the FSF has done what while all this happened? Basically nothing, because RMS choose not to engage with where software has gone in the past few decades and nobody else at the organization did anything about it. They begrudgingly published the AGPL, which attempted to expand the notion of free software from 80s-era applications to 90s-era CGI scripts, but that's as far as they went. RMS never cared about SaaS because his position was everyone should only run free software on their own computers, so they played just no part in any process to discuss what free software and the freedom to access data meant in the context of what software was increasingly becoming.
For example, they started a campaign around the idea that people were running non-free JavaScript in their browsers and this is bad and should be stopped. They wrote a browser extension that will block all the non-trivial non-free JavaScript on the web and allows users to complain to site owners to demand free software be used instead, along with the hope someone may come along and write free replacement scripts for popular sites (which even if it could be done, would be utterly unmaintainable when it comes to any remotely complex application). Unsurprisingly, no rational person uses this extension, because it utterly and completely makes the modern web unusable, and emailing complaint letters to the owners of every site you visit telling them to release their JS under a free license is crank behavior that does nothing to advance the cause of free software.
That's an astonishingly RMS-centric way of looking at the world and the problem. He was mad his computer was running non-free JavaScript, ranted about it, declared it should be blocked, and some software nobody uses was developed to do that. I'm sure that pleases him, since he's one of a handful of people on earth who might attempt to use the web without JavaScript to make some kind of point, but from the standpoint of an organization that's supposed to be promoting software freedom for the rest of us, it's useless. Meanwhile, there's been a whole really complicated conversation happening about different freedoms and licensing models and copyleft-like mechanisms and data access and ownership for software that runs over networks, a conversation about what free software should mean as applied to the actual modern software most people use today, a conversation that would be better with more non-corporate interests involved, and the FSF has completely disengaged from it, because it's incapable of looking beyond RMS's particular view of the world.
The ideals behind free software matter more than ever, and FSF's leadership has been absent because RMS has seemingly chosen not to engage with any of these problems.
posted by zachlipton at 9:54 PM on March 24, 2021 [35 favorites]
The ideals behind free software matter more than ever
The main thing about free software that's always appealed to me is that it's built on communal, rather than transactional, reciprocity.
Free tools make developing software something that more people can do, and that's a democratizing influence and therefore a good thing. Building free software on top of other free software also yields vastly improved software quality compared to trying to do everything in-house.
Free software is all about what goes around coming around: it's a community-oriented effort to build a communal software ecosystem that works for everybody. Which is, of course, exactly why those with a more transactional view of reciprocity so often end up feeling mystified and ripped off if they fail to monetize participation in the free software community. Free software is by no means incompatible with monetization, and of course there's a huge amount of free software that only exists because skilled developers get paid to make it exist, but that's never been the point of it.
Where rms's analysis of software freedom completely falls down, it seems to me, is in his persistent failure to deal with the fact that people passionate about software development, like him, are a very small minority: the vast bulk of humanity has little to no interest in it. Such attempts as I've seen him make to address this distinction have always been along the lines that it should not even exist because coding should be treated as if it were at least as fundamental to a proper education as literacy and numeracy.
But it never has been treated that way, and it never will be treated that way, because it's just not as fundamental a competency as either of those two things. And given that that is the case, the right to inspect and modify the source code of the software that runs on your devices is purely an in-principle right; for most people, having that right is of no actionable consequence whatsoever and never has been.
And this in turn, it seems to me, points to the fundamental problem with rms overall. He seems to have a great deal of trouble with the idea that the world would not be a better place if only everybody else were more like him.
The kind of software freedom that rms has always advocated for is a good thing because it's a pillar of democracy. And democracy is a good thing because it's the only form of social organization that actually takes advantage of the considerable strength of human diversity instead of attempting to corral and contain it.
Code and let code is a special case of live and let live, not a substitute for it, and treating them as interchangeable is engineer's disease in pretty much its purest form.
**In fact, now that we're in 2021 and software complexity has got so utterly out of control, it's of little consequence even to those of us who are skilled in the Dark Arts.
posted by flabdablet at 10:29 PM on March 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
The main thing about free software that's always appealed to me is that it's built on communal, rather than transactional, reciprocity.
Free tools make developing software something that more people can do, and that's a democratizing influence and therefore a good thing. Building free software on top of other free software also yields vastly improved software quality compared to trying to do everything in-house.
Free software is all about what goes around coming around: it's a community-oriented effort to build a communal software ecosystem that works for everybody. Which is, of course, exactly why those with a more transactional view of reciprocity so often end up feeling mystified and ripped off if they fail to monetize participation in the free software community. Free software is by no means incompatible with monetization, and of course there's a huge amount of free software that only exists because skilled developers get paid to make it exist, but that's never been the point of it.
Where rms's analysis of software freedom completely falls down, it seems to me, is in his persistent failure to deal with the fact that people passionate about software development, like him, are a very small minority: the vast bulk of humanity has little to no interest in it. Such attempts as I've seen him make to address this distinction have always been along the lines that it should not even exist because coding should be treated as if it were at least as fundamental to a proper education as literacy and numeracy.
But it never has been treated that way, and it never will be treated that way, because it's just not as fundamental a competency as either of those two things. And given that that is the case, the right to inspect and modify the source code of the software that runs on your devices is purely an in-principle right; for most people, having that right is of no actionable consequence whatsoever and never has been.
And this in turn, it seems to me, points to the fundamental problem with rms overall. He seems to have a great deal of trouble with the idea that the world would not be a better place if only everybody else were more like him.
The kind of software freedom that rms has always advocated for is a good thing because it's a pillar of democracy. And democracy is a good thing because it's the only form of social organization that actually takes advantage of the considerable strength of human diversity instead of attempting to corral and contain it.
Code and let code is a special case of live and let live, not a substitute for it, and treating them as interchangeable is engineer's disease in pretty much its purest form.
**In fact, now that we're in 2021 and software complexity has got so utterly out of control, it's of little consequence even to those of us who are skilled in the Dark Arts.
posted by flabdablet at 10:29 PM on March 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
Is anyone else picking up on the stark parallels between this conversation and the one on James Levine?
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:41 PM on March 24
I absolutely thought of the FPP about James Levine while reading this thread. The dangers of the cult of genius, when the genius is a toxic abuser. The way enablers will say, oh but what about all the great work he did! As if someone who wasn’t toxic couldn’t have created great things, had they not been shoved out of the way or victimized by the abusive genius.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:31 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Silvery Fish at 9:41 PM on March 24
I absolutely thought of the FPP about James Levine while reading this thread. The dangers of the cult of genius, when the genius is a toxic abuser. The way enablers will say, oh but what about all the great work he did! As if someone who wasn’t toxic couldn’t have created great things, had they not been shoved out of the way or victimized by the abusive genius.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 10:31 PM on March 24, 2021 [6 favorites]
I would like to point out that Stallman didn't write Emacs. That was James Gosling.
And Stallman’s tenure as Emacs maintainer is marked not by technical brilliance and design savvy but by the same stubborn opposition to progress that we see throughout his biography.
JWZ’s history of the Emacs schism is revealing.
posted by chrchr at 10:46 PM on March 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
And Stallman’s tenure as Emacs maintainer is marked not by technical brilliance and design savvy but by the same stubborn opposition to progress that we see throughout his biography.
JWZ’s history of the Emacs schism is revealing.
posted by chrchr at 10:46 PM on March 24, 2021 [9 favorites]
I am actually just learning about this human being now, but, "Simple sentences are almost as rare in my speech as in this writing." ..doesn't it take significant skill to shift complex thought into the most simple sentences or forms? ..and it usually takes less intellect and social skill to continue to communicate in unnecessarily complex ways?
Btw, belladonna, this is how I meant, "Neurodivergent vs. Typical/etc.: It can refer to that but not only that.." Thank you for confirming.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:55 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
Btw, belladonna, this is how I meant, "Neurodivergent vs. Typical/etc.: It can refer to that but not only that.." Thank you for confirming.
posted by firstdaffodils at 11:55 PM on March 24, 2021 [5 favorites]
I think people are trying to be kind when the offer armchair diagnoses as it's pretty easy to mock the guy based on his writings.
It's a bit like judging Patrick Bateman solely on his reviews of mainstream American rock.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:04 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
It's a bit like judging Patrick Bateman solely on his reviews of mainstream American rock.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 1:04 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT, DUDE
I'm not making light of Stallman's obnoxious behaviour, though a page enumerating the things one likes in overwhelming detail is pretty much the personal homepage everyone who had a web page in the 90s had, except perhaps with fewer animated Under Construction GIFs. While his crimes are many and grave, presuming that someone who heads over to his web page is interested in what colours of shirts he wears and his opinions on music is not one of them.
Calling rap “c...rap” each time, though, is a bit tedious, and possibly a red flag such as the then-assumed-progressive Morrissey's assertion that “reggae is vile”.
posted by acb at 2:16 AM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm not making light of Stallman's obnoxious behaviour, though a page enumerating the things one likes in overwhelming detail is pretty much the personal homepage everyone who had a web page in the 90s had, except perhaps with fewer animated Under Construction GIFs. While his crimes are many and grave, presuming that someone who heads over to his web page is interested in what colours of shirts he wears and his opinions on music is not one of them.
Calling rap “c...rap” each time, though, is a bit tedious, and possibly a red flag such as the then-assumed-progressive Morrissey's assertion that “reggae is vile”.
posted by acb at 2:16 AM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I mean, I agree strongly, acb, but I do kinda feel we need to set a limit of one red flag per fuckwit. I feel like one red flag is enough. You've done great* stuff in the past? Nice. Lovely for you. Don't come back until you're not an arsehole.
*not necessarily great... see more erudite posts above by others who are maybe less apt to let rage and frustration colour their words
posted by prismatic7 at 2:39 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
*not necessarily great... see more erudite posts above by others who are maybe less apt to let rage and frustration colour their words
posted by prismatic7 at 2:39 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
The leading theory I read over there is that he's not a sexist harasser, no... he's just neuroatypical. And really its our fault for not understanding him.
This is such a bogus argument. Even if we assume it's true, the solution is not to tolerate the sexual harassment, it's to keep him away from situations where he can harass, because he's incapable of understanding what he's doing is wrong.
This comment and response reminded me of a couple of years ago when we were discussing the problem of sexual harrassment of women at cons, and some people kept pleading for the "socially awkward individual" who meant well but just didn't seem to understand that their behavior was wrong.
The terminology may have gotten more sophisticated, but the argument is still bogus. It's about actions, and it doesn't matter that someone understand why it's wrong to harrass people any more than they really understand why you don't go around punching random people in the face (though, tellingly, many do understand that). What matters is that you don't do it and that there be consequences for doing it.
posted by Gelatin at 6:21 AM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
This is such a bogus argument. Even if we assume it's true, the solution is not to tolerate the sexual harassment, it's to keep him away from situations where he can harass, because he's incapable of understanding what he's doing is wrong.
This comment and response reminded me of a couple of years ago when we were discussing the problem of sexual harrassment of women at cons, and some people kept pleading for the "socially awkward individual" who meant well but just didn't seem to understand that their behavior was wrong.
The terminology may have gotten more sophisticated, but the argument is still bogus. It's about actions, and it doesn't matter that someone understand why it's wrong to harrass people any more than they really understand why you don't go around punching random people in the face (though, tellingly, many do understand that). What matters is that you don't do it and that there be consequences for doing it.
posted by Gelatin at 6:21 AM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
JWZ’s history of the Emacs schism is revealing.
Indeed. Recommended reading, if only for the history of software development circa 1992 aspect, but it really does sum up rms' m.o.
posted by mikelieman at 6:44 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Indeed. Recommended reading, if only for the history of software development circa 1992 aspect, but it really does sum up rms' m.o.
posted by mikelieman at 6:44 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Relevant to the conversation about Stallman and the whole Free or Open Source software debate is free software is over from mr. Liberal software, Robert M. Lefkowitz. Frankly I usually only remember it as the L in FLOSS. Kefkowitz is also from MIT, and his argument here is very much steeped in the personality cult around Stallman, with a generous salting of old grudges.
posted by zenon at 7:07 AM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by zenon at 7:07 AM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's been, what, three days now and there's still no statement from the FSF on their new Board member. I thought maybe they were just being slow or incompetent but now it seems more likely they are deliberately craven. They've had several updates on the website since the news broke, none mentioning Stallman or his board position.
There is this confusing piece on governance changes
I think the FSF is done as an organization. They've felt irrelevant for years, now they're outright badly managed. If you know of companies that fund them consider urging them to stop their funding.
posted by Nelson at 7:30 AM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
There is this confusing piece on governance changes
We will adopt a transparent, formal process for identifying candidates and appointing new board members who are wise, capable, and committed to the FSF's mission. We will establish ways for our supporters to contribute to the discussion.This sounds a little like maybe there were some complaints about how Stallman got back on the board and so they're inventing A Lot of Process to placate people who feel like they should have a say. Except, well, they're doing this after Stallman is back. And presumably he is shaping that supposedly transparent, formal process. That's gonna go great.
We will require all existing board members to go through this process as soon as possible, in stages, to decide which of them remain on the board.
I think the FSF is done as an organization. They've felt irrelevant for years, now they're outright badly managed. If you know of companies that fund them consider urging them to stop their funding.
posted by Nelson at 7:30 AM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
and it usually takes less intellect and social skill to continue to communicate in unnecessarily complex ways?
Interesting take. I think I'd better skip a response though.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:41 AM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
Interesting take. I think I'd better skip a response though.
posted by gusottertrout at 7:41 AM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
It's quite a thing to look through the signatories to the open letter (2000+ and growing) and see the names; I recognize perhaps one in thirty. I haven't gotten to go to a conference for a year, so this feels like a reunion. I want to point out a few notable signatories, people and a project who are particularly well-known as understanding and working to advance free software values:
posted by brainwane at 8:42 AM on March 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
- Daniel Kahn Gillmor, the kind of digital security and privacy advocate who has no cell phone, hosts his own email, and works at the ACLU
- The Tor Project, which uses free software to protect internet privacy (and which has had to expel high-status members for bad behavior in the past)
- Wendy Seltzer, who founded the Chilling Effects Clearinghouse and the OpenLaw project
- several former Debian Project Leaders -- this is an elected position and Debian is a long-standing, big, important free software project
posted by brainwane at 8:42 AM on March 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
Kat Walsh, aka @mindspillage, announced her resignation from the FSF board last night.
I am announcing my resignation from the FSF board. (Effective end of Thursday, for administrative reasons.) It's a decision that has been a long time coming for me, but still a hard one: I think the work of the FSF is important, and broken things are the most important to fix.posted by grimmelm at 9:11 AM on March 25, 2021 [18 favorites]
I have put effort into making it better (but not enough), and I regret leaving; it's an admission that I don't believe I am currently the right person to do that. I'm glad for what I was able to do, and regret my own failings in what I wasn't.
I wish the organization well; my departure is not a rejection of the ideas of free software, only a belief that my role in the organization was no longer the best way to put them forward into the world.
Gusotter, it actually comes from the common academic sentiment, "It takes more skill to state a complex matter simply/effectively, than to communicate a complex matter in complexity." It's maybe just an English recommendation, but it's often used in teaching or writing, and probably carries over.
I should revisit it, it has a common place of origin.
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:51 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I should revisit it, it has a common place of origin.
posted by firstdaffodils at 9:51 AM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
And why RMS instead of Stallman, Richard, or whatever? I don't know, that's how he started out. Just like how fellow open source software creep Eric Steven Raymond is known as ESR.
This guy blames Bell Labs for the three letter username obsession.
posted by pwnguin at 10:13 AM on March 25, 2021
This guy blames Bell Labs for the three letter username obsession.
posted by pwnguin at 10:13 AM on March 25, 2021
I recognize perhaps one in thirty'
I would sign it if I could figure out how to add my name via pull request without it renumbering everyone (they say "don't do that" but don't say how to avoid doing that). I'll just email them. FSFs statement today about the governance changes is so awful.
posted by jessamyn at 10:21 AM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
I would sign it if I could figure out how to add my name via pull request without it renumbering everyone (they say "don't do that" but don't say how to avoid doing that). I'll just email them. FSFs statement today about the governance changes is so awful.
posted by jessamyn at 10:21 AM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
The tendency towards three-letter usernames is an old-school UNIXism, coming both from old variants of UNIX only allowing usernames of up to 8 characters and the culture of UNIX valuing terseness (think ls, rm and such). MIT was, of course, steeped in this culture since its origin.
posted by acb at 10:27 AM on March 25, 2021
posted by acb at 10:27 AM on March 25, 2021
When people say "but but neurodivergence!" to me about RMS, I say "but but bad boss!" and hope that reframing will help people understand the problem here.
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:12 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Sauce Trough at 12:12 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
It's quite a thing to look through the signatories to the open letter (2000+ and growing) and see the names
Debian project as a whole is considering signing it as well.
posted by Bangaioh at 3:18 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Debian project as a whole is considering signing it as well.
posted by Bangaioh at 3:18 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Red Hat is ending support for the FSF:
… we are immediately suspending all Red Hat funding of the FSF and any FSF-hosted events. In addition, many Red Hat contributors have told us they no longer plan to participate in FSF-led or backed events, and we stand behind them.posted by chrchr at 3:44 PM on March 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
I signed the open letter. Got spam from a Gmail address for "Jack Larper" today that was vaguely menacing and mostly just stupid.. "Thanks to people like you, the communist revolution of 1917 in Russia became possible" being the key line. I think that was supposed to make me feel authoritarian and bad, but mostly just left me scratching my head because, well.. Defending Richard Stallman by calling his critics communists is a little confusing.
Speaking of Russian-adjacent propaganda, various people have noticed that most of the signers of the pro-RMS letter are Russian. I don't mean to suggest there's a deliberate clumsily hidden Kremlin campaign defending RMS (although that'd be hilarious). Instead I suspect this RMS story is hot on Russian social media. I don't speak Russian nor do I follow any Russian-centric social media; anyone know?
posted by Nelson at 4:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Speaking of Russian-adjacent propaganda, various people have noticed that most of the signers of the pro-RMS letter are Russian. I don't mean to suggest there's a deliberate clumsily hidden Kremlin campaign defending RMS (although that'd be hilarious). Instead I suspect this RMS story is hot on Russian social media. I don't speak Russian nor do I follow any Russian-centric social media; anyone know?
posted by Nelson at 4:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
I signed the open letter. Got spam from a Gmail address for "Jack Larper" today that was vaguely menacing and mostly just stupid.
You too? That was great.
I feel like "Look, when you're seven or eight paragraphs deep into a page of flamboyantly ahistorical, ideologically incomprehensible word salad, and you're thinking, the thing that will really drive whatever passes for a point in here home to my audience is a picture of a skull I saw in a comic book one time wearing a vaguely paramilitary hat, maybe you don't need to click send on that" is one of those things that needs to be covered earlier in the educational curriculum.
posted by mhoye at 4:59 PM on March 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
You too? That was great.
I feel like "Look, when you're seven or eight paragraphs deep into a page of flamboyantly ahistorical, ideologically incomprehensible word salad, and you're thinking, the thing that will really drive whatever passes for a point in here home to my audience is a picture of a skull I saw in a comic book one time wearing a vaguely paramilitary hat, maybe you don't need to click send on that" is one of those things that needs to be covered earlier in the educational curriculum.
posted by mhoye at 4:59 PM on March 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
oh man, now I feel like I need to sign on just to get this email...
posted by kaibutsu at 5:51 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 5:51 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
I should revisit it, it has a common place of origin.
The quote "I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one" or a variation gets attributed to Twain a lot, but although several have expressed it, there isn't any evidence he was one of them. Anyway, the idea traces back to at least Blaise Pascal in 1657: Je n’ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n’ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte ( in describing the current letter to others he'd written, "I made this one longer because I didn't have the time to make it shorter.") source
posted by solotoro at 6:02 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
The quote "I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one" or a variation gets attributed to Twain a lot, but although several have expressed it, there isn't any evidence he was one of them. Anyway, the idea traces back to at least Blaise Pascal in 1657: Je n’ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n’ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte ( in describing the current letter to others he'd written, "I made this one longer because I didn't have the time to make it shorter.") source
posted by solotoro at 6:02 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I simply do not understand how the leaders of the FSF, knowing this move would appall their membership as well as the leadership of sister groups, thought this would be to their benefit.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:04 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:04 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
They didn't think, it's a cult
posted by GuyZero at 6:18 PM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 6:18 PM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
They were too focused on a goal to anticipate the (predictable to many people outside the FSF) consequences of it.
posted by ardgedee at 6:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by ardgedee at 6:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
I simply do not understand how the leaders of the FSF, knowing this move would appall their membership as well as the leadership of sister groups, thought this would be to their benefit.
Because they have seen him as an unfairly persecuted martyr, right from the start of all of this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:24 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Because they have seen him as an unfairly persecuted martyr, right from the start of all of this.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:24 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also, I am fucking tired of all of the people who say he was fired for having "the wrong opinions", especially when they don't have the courage to actually talk about what those opinions are. If you want to argue that he was fired over his opinions without talking about what they actually are, then you are arguing in bad faith, and your actual argument is that communities should tolerate abuse and hate.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:34 PM on March 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:34 PM on March 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
From the JWZ emacs schism link that chrchr posted upthread, there's a link to another account of the emacs/XEmacs split that includes an email from RMS lamenting the split. Here's a passage I found interesting:
posted by mhum at 7:11 PM on March 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
XEmacs was possible because free software means that anyone can change it and distribute a modified version. I have no regrets about establishing this freedom for Emacs. Everyone should have the freedom to change any program, and this is not limited to changes that the original author likes.The part I found interesting is that the main thing RMS is complaining about -- i.e.: that XEmacs was able to fork emacs in such a way as to give themselves an "unfair" advantage -- seems to me to be primarily (if not entirely) a function of the licensing terms he imposed on himself as well as an inability to anticipate nor adapt to the fact that, well, not everyone is going to behave with the exact same motivations or principles that he has. I mean, he seems to have anticipated the possibility of competing versions of the same code but for some reason he seems to have only envisioned this competition occurring under the precise conditions (including licensing) that he would consider fair.
Many people have taken advantage of the freedom to change GNU Emacs, over the last decade. Most of them were willing to cooperate on integrating their changes into Emacs. XEmacs arose as a separate forked version because some of the developers--starting with Zawinski--were unwilling to do that.
People should have the freedom to decide what to work on, including the freedom to compete with the GNU project, but it's a shame when they make that choice. The whole community loses when someone chooses competition rather than cooperation.
But this is worse than competition--it is unfair competition. The XEmacs developers can and do copy code they like from Emacs. If I could copy the code I like from XEmacs in the same way, at least the rivalry would be fair. But I can't do that't, because substantial parts of XEmacs don't have legal papers, or don't have known authors.
posted by mhum at 7:11 PM on March 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
Stallman is a hero those guys who, when it comes out that they have publicly “put on that uniform , the one with the recognizable iconography ”, nobody is surprised.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:57 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:57 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Defending Richard Stallman by calling his critics communists is a little confusing.
The funniest part is that Linus Torvolds adopted the GPLv2 because of the criticism that his license terms, prohibiting any money from changing hands, was too Socialist.
posted by mikelieman at 10:09 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
The funniest part is that Linus Torvolds adopted the GPLv2 because of the criticism that his license terms, prohibiting any money from changing hands, was too Socialist.
posted by mikelieman at 10:09 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
oh man, now I feel like I need to sign on just to get this email...
I hate to say it, but maybe you should?
I dropped the sender in our org-wide spam filter early after only a few people in the org had received it but now I feel kind of bad about having done so. A bunch of the people who got it had the foresight to drop the original sender and treat the long CC list as a set of unexpected introductions to a random set of kind, reasonable and sometimes very accomplished people, and some great conversations have apparently flourished as a result.
posted by mhoye at 7:18 AM on March 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I hate to say it, but maybe you should?
I dropped the sender in our org-wide spam filter early after only a few people in the org had received it but now I feel kind of bad about having done so. A bunch of the people who got it had the foresight to drop the original sender and treat the long CC list as a set of unexpected introductions to a random set of kind, reasonable and sometimes very accomplished people, and some great conversations have apparently flourished as a result.
posted by mhoye at 7:18 AM on March 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Huh, I thought of the responders to Mr. Larper's email as the kinds of fools who blindly reply-all to junk email. Never occurred to me they'd have something interesting to say! I am proud to be on the list of signators though. 2580 and counting! Also 41 organizations, some of them Big Deals.
I asked an American friend with connections to Russian software engineers why so many Russians were signing on to the pro-RMS letter. He said he'd heard that the letter started as a project by Russians. Seems plausible and doesn't say anything in particular about Russia except they have a lot of software engineers who are OK with sexual harassment, just like the US does.
(BTW, you can avoid renumbering the list while editing with Github's editor by hitting shift-return to insert a newline. At least, worked for me.)
posted by Nelson at 9:00 AM on March 26, 2021
I asked an American friend with connections to Russian software engineers why so many Russians were signing on to the pro-RMS letter. He said he'd heard that the letter started as a project by Russians. Seems plausible and doesn't say anything in particular about Russia except they have a lot of software engineers who are OK with sexual harassment, just like the US does.
(BTW, you can avoid renumbering the list while editing with Github's editor by hitting shift-return to insert a newline. At least, worked for me.)
posted by Nelson at 9:00 AM on March 26, 2021
Oh yeah, I did indeed sign up immediately after making that comment, and am now number two thousand four hundred and something or other.
posted by kaibutsu at 9:14 AM on March 26, 2021
posted by kaibutsu at 9:14 AM on March 26, 2021
I'm on there as a co-signatory but I also wrote the patch that added Mozilla to the list of supporting organizations, and I have to admit that's one of the high points of my tenure. It's good the be a part of work you can be proud of.
posted by mhoye at 10:16 AM on March 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 10:16 AM on March 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
I'm on there as well, early enough that the list wasn't numbered when I signed on, so it was a lot easier for me to PR it. It frustrates me to no end to see this happening to the FSF, not least because I'm casual friends with Kat Walsh (mentioned above) and I know that this has been really hard on her.
posted by ChrisR at 10:33 AM on March 26, 2021
posted by ChrisR at 10:33 AM on March 26, 2021
doesn't say anything in particular about Russia except they have a lot of software engineers who are OK with sexual harassment, just like the US does.
OTOH, if there is any official or arm's-length encouragement of this (along the lines of the Internet Research Agency), it would fit the Kremlin's strategy of identifying and applying stress to cultural fault lines in the West, alongside them amplifying neo-Nazis and anti-vaxers.
posted by acb at 12:01 PM on March 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
OTOH, if there is any official or arm's-length encouragement of this (along the lines of the Internet Research Agency), it would fit the Kremlin's strategy of identifying and applying stress to cultural fault lines in the West, alongside them amplifying neo-Nazis and anti-vaxers.
posted by acb at 12:01 PM on March 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Contemporary Russian programming communities are often more unilaterally pro free speech, individualist and "apolitical" / anti-identity-politics than contemporary American programming communities. I imagine this has fairly legitimate cultural roots -- the 20th century kinda did happen? Anyway it's a pattern that extends much beyond this instance, and I think it's a bit clunky to assume everything Russians do collectively online is a government operation.
posted by ead at 4:05 PM on March 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by ead at 4:05 PM on March 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Contemporary Russian programming communities are often more unilaterally pro free speech, individualist and "apolitical" / anti-identity-politics than contemporary American programming communities. I imagine this has fairly legitimate cultural roots -- the 20th century kinda did happen?
They're behind the curve, being informed and influenced by the propaganda around "free speech" that we're now deconstructing and disassembling ourselves. Which isn't surprising - we have been selling that ideal for some time in a number of venues.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:22 PM on March 26, 2021
They're behind the curve, being informed and influenced by the propaganda around "free speech" that we're now deconstructing and disassembling ourselves. Which isn't surprising - we have been selling that ideal for some time in a number of venues.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:22 PM on March 26, 2021
> Unfortunately, they're saddled with the fact that their name is also what Jordan Peterson space-monkeys call themselves.
I have no idea what it's actually named after but I've always associated the name with the uploaded spiny lobsters in Charlie Stross's /Accelerando/.
From their About page:
The name "Lobste.rs" is a cute domain hack without any deeper meaning. It has nothing to do with self-help guru Jordan Peterson, whose fans started to call themselves "lobsters" about six years after we started.
Is it less worse than HN? Often, although sometimes not entirely.
posted by nickzoic at 2:29 AM on March 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have no idea what it's actually named after but I've always associated the name with the uploaded spiny lobsters in Charlie Stross's /Accelerando/.
From their About page:
The name "Lobste.rs" is a cute domain hack without any deeper meaning. It has nothing to do with self-help guru Jordan Peterson, whose fans started to call themselves "lobsters" about six years after we started.
Is it less worse than HN? Often, although sometimes not entirely.
posted by nickzoic at 2:29 AM on March 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Contemporary Russian programming communities are often more unilaterally pro free speech, individualist and "apolitical" / anti-identity-politics than contemporary American programming communities.
I think it's probably fair to say that, very generally speaking, people in Russia and the US have significantly different attitudes toward gender and sexuality, especially after a decade (or more) of nationalist politicization of "traditional values."
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:15 PM on March 28, 2021
I think it's probably fair to say that, very generally speaking, people in Russia and the US have significantly different attitudes toward gender and sexuality, especially after a decade (or more) of nationalist politicization of "traditional values."
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:15 PM on March 28, 2021
There's a competing pro-Stallman open letter.
@uzionmain: This rules, a whole ass list of people to avoid
and from a locked Twitter mutual: I find it extremely fascinating how few institutional affiliations there are on that list.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:44 PM on March 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
@uzionmain: This rules, a whole ass list of people to avoid
and from a locked Twitter mutual: I find it extremely fascinating how few institutional affiliations there are on that list.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:44 PM on March 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes but now we know which side of the controversy CrunkLord420 (TempleOS Developer) stands on.
The poorly-written petition and the overwhelming number of ringers and joke signatures puts even the legitimate-seeming signatures in doubt, because the document looks like the organizer accepts all pull requests without vetting.
posted by ardgedee at 5:36 AM on March 29, 2021
The poorly-written petition and the overwhelming number of ringers and joke signatures puts even the legitimate-seeming signatures in doubt, because the document looks like the organizer accepts all pull requests without vetting.
posted by ardgedee at 5:36 AM on March 29, 2021
That pro letter really makes the point clear, in case anyone was eager to be on the same side as ESR and the guy who started GamerGate. Has anyone already written a block script?
posted by adamsc at 6:25 AM on March 29, 2021
posted by adamsc at 6:25 AM on March 29, 2021
If someone writes a script to automatically block communications from people who signed the RMS support letter, I will almost certainly not use it.
There's at least one name I know on there -- a fairly new FLOSS contributor who is enthusiastic and friendly, and who has on previous occasions been willing to listen, learn, and change their mind on stuff around safety, discrimination, etc. I'm not the right person to talk with them about this particular signature -- if I did, due to some particulars about their role and my role in the project(s) we share, it might come off as me inappropriately pressuring them to recant their signature.
There are probably a bunch of those people among the signatories to the support letter.
I haven't signed either letter. I wrote a long blog post about why I'm against the FSF's recent decisions, and have received some questions and followup notes, fortunately none blockworthy.
In FSF news: The staff's chosen a representative who has now joined the board of directors, which is a good step. John Sullivan is stepping down after 18 years as executive director of the FSF and I don't yet know whether that bodes fair or ill.
posted by brainwane at 7:24 AM on March 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
There's at least one name I know on there -- a fairly new FLOSS contributor who is enthusiastic and friendly, and who has on previous occasions been willing to listen, learn, and change their mind on stuff around safety, discrimination, etc. I'm not the right person to talk with them about this particular signature -- if I did, due to some particulars about their role and my role in the project(s) we share, it might come off as me inappropriately pressuring them to recant their signature.
There are probably a bunch of those people among the signatories to the support letter.
I haven't signed either letter. I wrote a long blog post about why I'm against the FSF's recent decisions, and have received some questions and followup notes, fortunately none blockworthy.
In FSF news: The staff's chosen a representative who has now joined the board of directors, which is a good step. John Sullivan is stepping down after 18 years as executive director of the FSF and I don't yet know whether that bodes fair or ill.
posted by brainwane at 7:24 AM on March 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
Amusing that Raymond is supporting Stallman in this. He's been in a decades-long bunfight with him. However, it seems, in extremis, all the disagreements about free software are less important that being able to freely indulge their privilege.
posted by bonehead at 10:42 AM on March 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 10:42 AM on March 29, 2021 [4 favorites]
The FSF board has issued a statement and it is the most craven possible bullshit:
While our primary mission is freedom for software users, we want to be clear, the FSF board unanimously condemns misogyny, racism,and other bigotry as well as defamation, intimidation, and unfair attacks on free thought and speech.posted by chrchr at 8:05 PM on March 29, 2021 [3 favorites]
John Sullivan, executive director, has resigned from the FSF.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:31 AM on March 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
After 18 years with the Free Software Foundation, I've decided to resign my position as executive director, effective at the end of a transition period.That last tweet makes me wonder if he's resigning because he opposed bringing Stallman back, or because he was instrumental in bringing him back and is taking the blame for the shitstorm.
We'll be sharing further details, including information about that transition, and a few more words, in the coming days.
It's been a humbling honor to serve this institution, and to work alongside the FSF's staff, members, and volunteers over the years. The current staff deserve your full confidence and support -- they certainly have mine.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 3:31 AM on March 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
I know John and I find the former a lot more likely.
posted by brainwane at 4:01 AM on March 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by brainwane at 4:01 AM on March 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
> While our primary mission is freedom for software users, we want to be clear, the FSF board unanimously condemns misogyny, racism,and other bigotry as well as defamation, intimidation, and unfair attacks on free thought and speech.
The return of Stallman to the board makes this statement provably fraudulent.
posted by ardgedee at 5:31 AM on March 30, 2021
The return of Stallman to the board makes this statement provably fraudulent.
posted by ardgedee at 5:31 AM on March 30, 2021
Looks like a couple of other FSF staffers have announced they're leaving as well.
posted by zachlipton at 11:35 AM on March 30, 2021
posted by zachlipton at 11:35 AM on March 30, 2021
At a glance it seems like there are pretty significant differences between the open letters in terms of gender and geography.
It's hard for me to tell as an outsider, but I get the impression that the original letter contains a higher signal-to-noise ratio when it comes to signatories with a direct connection to FSF or free/open software. Is that the case?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:02 PM on March 30, 2021
It's hard for me to tell as an outsider, but I get the impression that the original letter contains a higher signal-to-noise ratio when it comes to signatories with a direct connection to FSF or free/open software. Is that the case?
posted by evidenceofabsence at 12:02 PM on March 30, 2021
The full statement on the FSF web site is incredibly bad.
posted by fedward at 1:10 PM on March 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Some of our colleagues in the FSF have decided to resign. We are grateful for the good work they have done for so long, and we will miss them. We regret losing them; we regret the situation that has motivated them to leave."We regret the situation" takes no responsibility for having created it. Maybe the best way to get through this difficult time would have been not to put yourselves in it in the first place, hm?
We appreciate their strong commitment to free software and we want to find replacements with a similar competence and commitment. We are open to suggestions and applications for these positions.
Finally, we would like to thank the numerous friends across the free software movement who have recently joined as well as those who have have left and provided suggestions for helping us through this difficult time.
posted by fedward at 1:10 PM on March 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
There's also a post up on the FSF web site indicating that the board president is planning to resign "as soon as there is a clear path for new leadership assuring continuity of the FSF’s mission and compliance with fiduciary requirements."
Seems really interesting that everyone is resigning except RMS. Like, who voted to put him back on the board if they're all going to resign in protest?
(Also, the most recent post shared above reads to me like it was written by RMS, but that may just be my ear picking up on something that isn't really there.)
posted by HiddenInput at 1:32 PM on March 30, 2021
Seems really interesting that everyone is resigning except RMS. Like, who voted to put him back on the board if they're all going to resign in protest?
(Also, the most recent post shared above reads to me like it was written by RMS, but that may just be my ear picking up on something that isn't really there.)
posted by HiddenInput at 1:32 PM on March 30, 2021
Seems really interesting that everyone is resigning except RMS. Like, who voted to put him back on the board if they're all going to resign in protest?
Several of the people who're resigning hold staff positions; the board oversees the operations of the executive director, who manages the rest of the staff (who do the actual work). The board also helps the President set the overall goals and manage the finances of the FSF, and would have been responsible for appointing Stallman to the board - apparently the staff didn't even know about it until Stallman himself announced it. So far, the Executive Director John Sullivan, Deputy Director John Hsieh, and CTO Ruben Rodriguez are resigning - all senior staff.
The only board member to resign so far is Kat Walsh, who resigned only a couple of days after Stallman's announcement. Ian Kelling was appointed as her replacement, supposedly the newly created staff-selected seat on the board. The other board members I believe are Gerald J. Sussman, Henry Poole, Odile Bénassy and of course, Richard M. Stallman.
The FSF president Geoffrey Knauth has also announced that "I commit myself to resign as an FSF officer, director, and voting member as soon as there is a clear path for new leadership assuring continuity of the FSF's mission and compliance with fiduciary requirements."
Given their other statements, Knauth and the board seem to be labouring under the belief that the only problem with bringing Stallman back onto the board was that the process wasn't "transparent" enough (i.e. done in secret) - not that he's totally unsuitable for the post given his many transgressions and total lack of contrition or apology over them, or even the slightest indication he's learned a damn thing.
So kicking the ball into the long grass by "soliciting proposals from qualified consultants to assist in creating a transparent, formal process for identifying candidates and appointing board members who are wise, capable, and committed to the FSF's mission." is basically the board hoping it will all eventually blow over by promising to set up some sort of written board appointment process at some undefined point in the future. A process that Stallman himself will have a hand in writing. Anyone want to take bets on Stallman's expectations about getting the president's seat back when Knauth eventually resigns?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:25 PM on March 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Several of the people who're resigning hold staff positions; the board oversees the operations of the executive director, who manages the rest of the staff (who do the actual work). The board also helps the President set the overall goals and manage the finances of the FSF, and would have been responsible for appointing Stallman to the board - apparently the staff didn't even know about it until Stallman himself announced it. So far, the Executive Director John Sullivan, Deputy Director John Hsieh, and CTO Ruben Rodriguez are resigning - all senior staff.
The only board member to resign so far is Kat Walsh, who resigned only a couple of days after Stallman's announcement. Ian Kelling was appointed as her replacement, supposedly the newly created staff-selected seat on the board. The other board members I believe are Gerald J. Sussman, Henry Poole, Odile Bénassy and of course, Richard M. Stallman.
The FSF president Geoffrey Knauth has also announced that "I commit myself to resign as an FSF officer, director, and voting member as soon as there is a clear path for new leadership assuring continuity of the FSF's mission and compliance with fiduciary requirements."
Given their other statements, Knauth and the board seem to be labouring under the belief that the only problem with bringing Stallman back onto the board was that the process wasn't "transparent" enough (i.e. done in secret) - not that he's totally unsuitable for the post given his many transgressions and total lack of contrition or apology over them, or even the slightest indication he's learned a damn thing.
So kicking the ball into the long grass by "soliciting proposals from qualified consultants to assist in creating a transparent, formal process for identifying candidates and appointing board members who are wise, capable, and committed to the FSF's mission." is basically the board hoping it will all eventually blow over by promising to set up some sort of written board appointment process at some undefined point in the future. A process that Stallman himself will have a hand in writing. Anyone want to take bets on Stallman's expectations about getting the president's seat back when Knauth eventually resigns?
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:25 PM on March 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Seems really interesting that everyone is resigning except RMS. Like, who voted to put him back on the board if they're all going to resign in protest?
The FSF leadership strata isn't just the board. It consists of a board of directors, whose names are known, and "voting members" whose names (and how many of them there are, and the minutes of the meetings where decisions get made...) are apparently a closely guarded secret. A sure sign of a functional, healthy organization.
posted by mhoye at 5:10 PM on March 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
The FSF leadership strata isn't just the board. It consists of a board of directors, whose names are known, and "voting members" whose names (and how many of them there are, and the minutes of the meetings where decisions get made...) are apparently a closely guarded secret. A sure sign of a functional, healthy organization.
posted by mhoye at 5:10 PM on March 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
What a shame to see this organization fail in this manner. They are absolutely untrustworthy for any future funding.
posted by Nelson at 8:19 PM on March 30, 2021
posted by Nelson at 8:19 PM on March 30, 2021
If everyone but Stallman were to leave the FSF, would the organisation remain as just Stallman and whatever dignity wraiths remain attached to his cult of personality, or would we see entryists joining it, love-bombing him and nudging this once-venerable organisation into a stalking horse for their own agenda?
posted by acb at 1:28 PM on March 31, 2021
posted by acb at 1:28 PM on March 31, 2021
I don't think I realized the odd level of control Stallman forced the staff to live under for many years pre-union, mostly because of paranoid nerdly reasons. I knew the other things that were wrong with him, through many conversations here, but that was news to me.
posted by jessamyn at 8:28 PM on March 31, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 8:28 PM on March 31, 2021 [13 favorites]
Goodness the drama never ends. As a signer of the petition to oust Stallman, I just got this email
FWIW the poll is listed as having a "poll supervisor, Cindy Rogers". I can't find any record of who that might actually be. Given the amount of propaganda activity and Internet fuckery surrounding this whole event I'd like some way to verify they are a real person really in the free software community.
posted by Nelson at 4:12 PM on April 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Description of poll: Many of us have come to feel that the anti-Stallman letter is a bit too strong and has created a lot of division in the community. Some of us have started receiving threats and spam. People started making requests to remove their names and Molly de Blanc locked the Github page to trap us. Therefore, some of us decided it was a good idea to have a vote on the subject. We are giving you the choice to vote, do you want your name and email address removed from Molly's negative campaign against her old boss?There's a link for context in there but the site it links to is so biased I won't include it here. It is true the github project for the letter hasn't been updated in over a week and says they aren't taking more signatures. There's been so much harassment and nastiness I can think of a million reasons the folks running the project might have had enough of it
FWIW the poll is listed as having a "poll supervisor, Cindy Rogers". I can't find any record of who that might actually be. Given the amount of propaganda activity and Internet fuckery surrounding this whole event I'd like some way to verify they are a real person really in the free software community.
posted by Nelson at 4:12 PM on April 9, 2021 [1 favorite]
Was coming here to talk about this too. Between getting an email about related drama (RMS issues and Debian issues and Nazis) from adolfhitler@somedomainIforgot.com on Holocaust Remembrance Day (yesterday) about this whole dramaz and now this, I'm finding it all frankly bizarre.
posted by jessamyn at 4:16 PM on April 9, 2021
posted by jessamyn at 4:16 PM on April 9, 2021
The CIVS spam is from a former Debian developer who was kicked out of the project a couple of years back, and has been harassing those he sees as responsible ever since. Unfortunately the person responsible for CIVS feels that there's no point in blocking abusive polls since the author could just email people directly instead (which kind of ignores how modern anti-spam would probably handle this quite effectively if it weren't being sent through Cornell's mail server and so treated as having a good reputation), and while there are efforts to handle this through the legal system everything takes a *lot* of time. Apologies to everyone who has to deal with fallout from this.
posted by mjg59 at 5:04 PM on April 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by mjg59 at 5:04 PM on April 9, 2021 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately the person responsible for CIVS feels that there's no point in blocking abusive polls since the author could just email people directly instead
Why are they still in that post after such a statement? That is literally "I am manifestly unwilling to do my job."
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:46 PM on April 9, 2021
Why are they still in that post after such a statement? That is literally "I am manifestly unwilling to do my job."
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:46 PM on April 9, 2021
> Why are they still in that post after such a statement? That is literally "I am manifestly unwilling to do my job."
Seems their job is to be a professor, and CIVS is their 'not a Cornell service' that just happens to:
1. Use a cornell.edu subdomain
2. Use cornell.edu's mail agents
3. Use an IP address assigned to Cornell
4. Solicits donations earmarked for the professor's research lab
On the other hand, we do have this update under "CIVS news":
> CIVS is going to switch to opt-in email in the near future, to deal with abuse of the service. Currently it does have support to allow users to opt out. This change will unfortunately make it a bit more inconvenient to use the service with new users.
posted by pwnguin at 8:30 PM on April 9, 2021
Seems their job is to be a professor, and CIVS is their 'not a Cornell service' that just happens to:
1. Use a cornell.edu subdomain
2. Use cornell.edu's mail agents
3. Use an IP address assigned to Cornell
4. Solicits donations earmarked for the professor's research lab
On the other hand, we do have this update under "CIVS news":
> CIVS is going to switch to opt-in email in the near future, to deal with abuse of the service. Currently it does have support to allow users to opt out. This change will unfortunately make it a bit more inconvenient to use the service with new users.
posted by pwnguin at 8:30 PM on April 9, 2021
I figured Cornell CIVS was blameless in this; just some generic Internet service being used. I'm not particularly offended it sent me email although if it were used for spam a lot I'd block it.
I would like to know who sent the poll though. mjg59 talks about a former Debian developer with a male pronoun; is his name somewhere I can learn more? Feel free to MeMail me if you're feeling delicate about posting it. Presumably this is not "poll supervisor, Cindy Rogers" whose name was on the email, I'd expect a female pronoun for them.
posted by Nelson at 7:58 AM on April 10, 2021
I would like to know who sent the poll though. mjg59 talks about a former Debian developer with a male pronoun; is his name somewhere I can learn more? Feel free to MeMail me if you're feeling delicate about posting it. Presumably this is not "poll supervisor, Cindy Rogers" whose name was on the email, I'd expect a female pronoun for them.
posted by Nelson at 7:58 AM on April 10, 2021
Thanks to someone who memailed me a name. That led me to this discussion on the RMS letter GitHub about the email. Cornell is indeed a blameless victim here. A particular name is fingered in the discussion later on, based on a pattern of behavior from him in the past. He shows up in the discussion and doesn't seem to confirm nor deny. It's all ugly and awful.
FWIW though the email poll was intended to be sent anonymously and no person will stand up and say they wrote it. That's the kind of people defending RMS. Disgusting.
posted by Nelson at 9:40 AM on April 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
FWIW though the email poll was intended to be sent anonymously and no person will stand up and say they wrote it. That's the kind of people defending RMS. Disgusting.
posted by Nelson at 9:40 AM on April 10, 2021 [1 favorite]
Nelson, I do quibble a bit with the description of Cornell as blameless, but "what responsibility does a platform provider have to notice and deal with users using their service in this way?" is somewhat out of scope for this thread. And, regardless, the human who has created the particular polls in question is concretely responsible.
Luis Villa and Katherine Maher talked at this year's LibrePlanet about organizational soul-searching in a way that is very relevant to FSF.
Also: the Declaration of Digital Autonomy by Molly de Blanc and Karen M. Sandler, published last year, is an interesting manifesto declaring principles for ethical technology -- it is recognizably influenced by Stallman's "Four Freedoms" but much more aware of today's problems.
posted by brainwane at 10:49 AM on April 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Luis Villa and Katherine Maher talked at this year's LibrePlanet about organizational soul-searching in a way that is very relevant to FSF.
Also: the Declaration of Digital Autonomy by Molly de Blanc and Karen M. Sandler, published last year, is an interesting manifesto declaring principles for ethical technology -- it is recognizably influenced by Stallman's "Four Freedoms" but much more aware of today's problems.
posted by brainwane at 10:49 AM on April 10, 2021 [2 favorites]
Is there any particular group at Cornell that is directly above CIVS, which provides them server space, networking, and funding to continue operations? It's not great to keep getting unsolicited contacts from them. If CIVS can't control its service, maybe it needs to be shut down.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:11 PM on April 10, 2021
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:11 PM on April 10, 2021
The FSF finally put out a statement. It is somehow even worse than you could imagine. It somehow manages to both be couched in the language of contrition and yet completely defiant. "We are bringing back RMS because we want to. We screwed up communications but, well, our bad. Let's all move forward."
The FSF is over as an organization.
posted by Nelson at 1:02 PM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
The FSF is over as an organization.
posted by Nelson at 1:02 PM on April 12, 2021 [3 favorites]
The FSF finally put out a statement.
posted by hanov3r at 1:14 PM on April 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
FSF staff should have been informed and consulted first. The announcement by RMS at LibrePlanet was a complete surprise to staff, all those who worked so hard to organize a great event, to LibrePlanet speakers and to the exhibitors. We had hoped for a more inclusive and thoughtful process and we apologize that this did not occur.RMS did something that disrupted your "inclusive and thoughtful process" and you're not, like, having second thoughts about his "troubling" "personal style" or whether his behavior's actually been moderated? FFS.
posted by hanov3r at 1:14 PM on April 12, 2021 [2 favorites]
... While his personal style remains troubling for some, a majority of the board feel his behavior has moderated and believe that his thinking strengthens the work of the FSF in pursuit of its mission.Susan Collins says Donald Trump has learned his lesson.
We take full responsibility for how badly we handled the news of his election to a board seat. We had planned a flow of information that was not executed in a timely manner or delivered in the proper sequence.
FSF staff should have been informed and consulted first. The announcement by RMS at LibrePlanet was a complete surprise to staff, all those who worked so hard to organize a great event, to LibrePlanet speakers and to the exhibitors ...
posted by flabdablet at 1:19 PM on April 12, 2021 [4 favorites]
He has sincere regrets, especially at how anger toward him personally has negatively impacted the reputation and mission of FSF."See, this is all your fault really."
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:33 PM on April 12, 2021 [5 favorites]
There's also a concurrently-issued statement from RMS.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:43 PM on April 12, 2021
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:43 PM on April 12, 2021
so over the years I've found ways to get better at these situations.
This is really one of those [citation needed] situations. My read on his "improvements" is that many people are not seeing them and/or don't believe they are actually happening or even possible.
posted by jessamyn at 2:01 PM on April 12, 2021
This is really one of those [citation needed] situations. My read on his "improvements" is that many people are not seeing them and/or don't believe they are actually happening or even possible.
posted by jessamyn at 2:01 PM on April 12, 2021
Well, that's the end of that.
posted by mhoye at 7:21 PM on April 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by mhoye at 7:21 PM on April 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Deleted a couple; fake-quoting rotten people to say what you think they'd say is usually not great for a thread.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:09 PM on April 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:09 PM on April 12, 2021 [1 favorite]
Well shit. And yeah, that's the end of my support for the FSF.
I'm an absolute fan of the GPL and I think the patents clause in v3 was a good idea. The whole idea of charging people code for using your code, rather than charging them money for using your code, is brilliant.
But the FSF has proven itself to be unable to operate as a legitimate agency, so fuck 'em.
RMS has been a cringe inducing humiliation for free software since basically forever. I'm glade he made the GPL. I wish he'd retire and clear the field for people who aren't old bearded white guys.
posted by sotonohito at 8:29 AM on April 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm an absolute fan of the GPL and I think the patents clause in v3 was a good idea. The whole idea of charging people code for using your code, rather than charging them money for using your code, is brilliant.
But the FSF has proven itself to be unable to operate as a legitimate agency, so fuck 'em.
RMS has been a cringe inducing humiliation for free software since basically forever. I'm glade he made the GPL. I wish he'd retire and clear the field for people who aren't old bearded white guys.
posted by sotonohito at 8:29 AM on April 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Speaking as an old bearded white guy, I just wish he'd pull his fucking head in and stop giving the rest of us a bad name.
posted by flabdablet at 1:38 PM on April 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:38 PM on April 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
I just can't even with this sentence from the FSF statement:
ESR, possessing either zero self-awareness or quite possibly a great deal of it, showed up on the gcc mailing list today to argue against rejecting jerks, citing worries about the "serious costs" of such a policy without any regard for the people harmed and driven away by tolerating jerks.
And Brad Fitzpatrick did a good comparison of the FSF Board's composition to healthier organizations. See also Luis Villa and Miguel de Icaza in the replies discussing RMS's control of the board.
posted by zachlipton at 11:55 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
He has sincere regrets, especially at how anger toward him personally has negatively impacted the reputation and mission of FSF.He doesn't regret that his actions and behavior have hurt the FSF's mission, but sincerely regrets the effects of our reaction to his behavior? That just boils down to "he regrets that his actions have consequences."
ESR, possessing either zero self-awareness or quite possibly a great deal of it, showed up on the gcc mailing list today to argue against rejecting jerks, citing worries about the "serious costs" of such a policy without any regard for the people harmed and driven away by tolerating jerks.
And Brad Fitzpatrick did a good comparison of the FSF Board's composition to healthier organizations. See also Luis Villa and Miguel de Icaza in the replies discussing RMS's control of the board.
posted by zachlipton at 11:55 PM on April 14, 2021 [10 favorites]
ianlancetaylor replied 6 days ago
posted by flabdablet at 4:25 AM on April 20, 2021
We don't use GitHub for code review. This commit is a mirror to GitHub of https://golang.org/cl/309573. Very few people will ever see this discussion, so I'm locking this.More people than he appears to anticipate, I suspect.
posted by flabdablet at 4:25 AM on April 20, 2021
I had considered linking the golang URL instead but that page loaded a lot slower and was burdened with a lot of administrivia which is necessary when you're managing a project but are just visual noise when you're some random on the Internet who wants to link to a cute prank.
posted by ardgedee at 5:41 PM on April 20, 2021
posted by ardgedee at 5:41 PM on April 20, 2021
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
The consensus for a while is that the FSF is past its useful lifespan and it's time for other orgs like the EFF to carry the torch. This is just another nail in that coffin.
posted by mikesch at 8:43 AM on March 24, 2021 [30 favorites]