The vice presidential salute is not a thing
March 25, 2021 12:55 PM Subscribe
The vice presidential salute is not a thing and neither is the presidential salute. Task & Purpose reminds us that such salutes, like so many bad ideas, originated with Ronald Reagan. Elected officials who do not return a salute are not being disrespectful, according to trustworthy sources responding to the professional gasbags wringing their hands over the US Vice President’s salutation indifference to the various on-duty military folks who is salute her on the regular.
"As I told the admiral, I wound up flying a desk for the Army Air Force."
Note how Ronnie makes light of his war record of making training movies comfortably Stateside, while much bigger stars like Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart were out actually fighting. A better man would feel shame.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:16 PM on March 25, 2021 [50 favorites]
Note how Ronnie makes light of his war record of making training movies comfortably Stateside, while much bigger stars like Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart were out actually fighting. A better man would feel shame.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:16 PM on March 25, 2021 [50 favorites]
In any other country, such a brouhaha over whether civilians should salute soldiers, by certain over-excited politicians and media celebs (who are more than happy to put soldiers in harms way and abandon them when they come home and make sure their own children never serve), would make you wonder how commited they are to the principles of democracy, rather than say, military-junta-style authoritarian rule.
This being the US of course, there's no doubt whatsover.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:17 PM on March 25, 2021 [46 favorites]
This being the US of course, there's no doubt whatsover.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 1:17 PM on March 25, 2021 [46 favorites]
Because I do not watch Fox I had no idea until I read the fucking article that our new VP was a horrible human being (sarcasm) because of her failure to return salutes. I love Task and Purpose because it covers the military in a non-hysterical, non-right-wing way. The military is an important beat that I know utterly nothing about, so it was cool to discover it a while back.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
Is this the new Tan Suit?
Pretty much, yeah. For eight years, the Obama administration was almost completely devoid of anything like a real scandal. But Fox's whole business plan is based on stoking conservative outrage 24/7. So we got BENGHAZI and the Tan Suit and the Arugula and the Latte Salute.
Which, given just how much extraordinary, actual scandal, corruption and outright incompetence Fox and Fiends have overlooked or rationalized in the past four years, makes it really obvious what this is all about.
posted by darkstar at 1:26 PM on March 25, 2021 [34 favorites]
Pretty much, yeah. For eight years, the Obama administration was almost completely devoid of anything like a real scandal. But Fox's whole business plan is based on stoking conservative outrage 24/7. So we got BENGHAZI and the Tan Suit and the Arugula and the Latte Salute.
Which, given just how much extraordinary, actual scandal, corruption and outright incompetence Fox and Fiends have overlooked or rationalized in the past four years, makes it really obvious what this is all about.
posted by darkstar at 1:26 PM on March 25, 2021 [34 favorites]
It makes sense that it started with Reagan, but the cynical military worship by politicians only accelerated under George W. Bush. (Remember that time he donned a flight suit on the deck of an aircraft carrier?)
And it doesn't really surprise me that plenty of people—even some who haven't been FoxNews-pilled—would be suckered into thinking this was an actual thing. In the leadup to the 2016 election I remember talking with a co-worker (a smart, left-leaning dude) who sincerely believed that Trump wouldn't be eligible to run for president because he'd never served in the military.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:33 PM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
And it doesn't really surprise me that plenty of people—even some who haven't been FoxNews-pilled—would be suckered into thinking this was an actual thing. In the leadup to the 2016 election I remember talking with a co-worker (a smart, left-leaning dude) who sincerely believed that Trump wouldn't be eligible to run for president because he'd never served in the military.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:33 PM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
And some people credit that Dukakis-in-a-tank with scuttling his chances of beating Bush the First. From this non-USian perspective, the hypocrisy is only part of the picture. The empire needs its military, whether the face of the empire is the genteel Black man some of us can identify with and/or applaud in some fashion, or whether the face is more bloated, white, and prone to spewing rancorous garbage. What are y'all saluting (or not saluting) in the first place?
posted by elkevelvet at 1:37 PM on March 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 1:37 PM on March 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
Didn’t Rumsfeld try to equate the position of Attorney General with a military rank?
posted by double bubble at 1:39 PM on March 25, 2021
posted by double bubble at 1:39 PM on March 25, 2021
Oh. Rumsfeld was sec of def. How could I forget that? I think the past year broke me. But I still have this niggling memory of some AG insisting on being saluted because he was a “General” or some such nonsense.
posted by double bubble at 1:44 PM on March 25, 2021
posted by double bubble at 1:44 PM on March 25, 2021
Thanks for the post! Saw this trending, was pretty sure it was conservative nonsense; but unlike the President, the VP is nowhere in the chain of command. Good to know both are neither expected or required to salute.
posted by meowzilla at 1:48 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 1:48 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Note how Ronnie makes light of his war record of making training movies comfortably Stateside, while much bigger stars like Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart were out actually fighting. A better man would feel shame.
For example Marion Morrison, who supposedly compensated for his not serving in WWII by becoming super patriot John Wayne.
posted by TedW at 1:51 PM on March 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
For example Marion Morrison, who supposedly compensated for his not serving in WWII by becoming super patriot John Wayne.
posted by TedW at 1:51 PM on March 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
Oh. Rumsfeld was sec of def. How could I forget that? I think the past year broke me. But I still have this niggling memory of some AG insisting on being saluted because he was a “General” or some such nonsense.
I had an encounter with a lobbyist who of all people should have known that the state Attorney General isn't a general and referred to him several times to his face as a general and everyone (including me) just sort of went with it.
That said, the Attorney General in our state does have an honorary rank.
posted by dances with hamsters at 2:07 PM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
But I still have this niggling memory of some AG insisting on being saluted because he was a “General” or some such nonsense.
Entirely possible, or you may be thinking of the toady Republicans in Congress addressing Barr as "General Barr," dropping the "Attorney," during the Mueller report hearings, that was definitely a thing.
Or just maybe you are thinking of the Surgeon General, who is in fact by virtue of being named to that post a commissioned officer of one of the US uniformed services, specifically a Vice Admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps? (You probably aren't, but I just love sharing that fact, my mind was blown the first time I learned it.)
posted by solotoro at 2:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [19 favorites]
Entirely possible, or you may be thinking of the toady Republicans in Congress addressing Barr as "General Barr," dropping the "Attorney," during the Mueller report hearings, that was definitely a thing.
Or just maybe you are thinking of the Surgeon General, who is in fact by virtue of being named to that post a commissioned officer of one of the US uniformed services, specifically a Vice Admiral of the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps? (You probably aren't, but I just love sharing that fact, my mind was blown the first time I learned it.)
posted by solotoro at 2:23 PM on March 25, 2021 [19 favorites]
So maybe the AG is just jealous of the SG? Sounds about GOP.
posted by double bubble at 2:25 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by double bubble at 2:25 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I had an encounter with a lobbyist who of all people should have known that the state Attorney General isn't a general and referred to him several times to his face as a general and everyone (including me) just sort of went with it.
Entirely possible, or you may be thinking of the toady Republicans in Congress addressing Barr as "General Barr," dropping the "Attorney," during the Mueller report hearings, that was definitely a thing.
"General" is actually a correct form of address when speaking to an attorney general... but not usually used outside a courtroom.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:28 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Entirely possible, or you may be thinking of the toady Republicans in Congress addressing Barr as "General Barr," dropping the "Attorney," during the Mueller report hearings, that was definitely a thing.
"General" is actually a correct form of address when speaking to an attorney general... but not usually used outside a courtroom.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:28 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I will say, as much as I loathe the man and his legacy, Reagan's explanation of why he did it rings reasonable. I could easily see myself being sorely tempted to return the salute, not only as a mark of respect but also because my brief time in uniform has left me with a sense of intense social pressure to return salutes when I encounter them or otherwise feel extremely rude and disrespectful. So I don't necessarily blame Reagan for doing it.
That said, I appreciate the counterargument that it is a bad idea because it blurs the line between civilian and military leadership, which is a powerful reason not to do it. And if I were President, I might therefore resist the strong urge to return the salute in service of this higher principle in our democracy.
But regardless of which way you choose, the idea that "you're wrong if you don't return the salute" is clearly wrong. And given the parties who are making this an issue, it's obvious that they're not interested in addressing the merits of one argument or the other, but instead just trying to find another Dr. Seuss / Mr. Potato Head moment of pseudoscandal like the morally bankrupt propagandists that they are.
posted by darkstar at 2:29 PM on March 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
That said, I appreciate the counterargument that it is a bad idea because it blurs the line between civilian and military leadership, which is a powerful reason not to do it. And if I were President, I might therefore resist the strong urge to return the salute in service of this higher principle in our democracy.
But regardless of which way you choose, the idea that "you're wrong if you don't return the salute" is clearly wrong. And given the parties who are making this an issue, it's obvious that they're not interested in addressing the merits of one argument or the other, but instead just trying to find another Dr. Seuss / Mr. Potato Head moment of pseudoscandal like the morally bankrupt propagandists that they are.
posted by darkstar at 2:29 PM on March 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
I don’t know about the AG stuff, but remember that weird-ass military – related flag thing during the last administration?
At the Interior Department's headquarters in downtown Washington, D.C., Secretary Ryan Zinke has revived an arcane military ritual that no one can remember ever happening in the federal government.
A security staffer takes the elevator to the seventh floor, climbs the stairs to the roof and hoists a special secretarial flag whenever Zinke enters the building. When the secretary goes home for the day or travels, the flag - a blue banner emblazoned with the agency's bison seal flanked by seven white stars representing the Interior bureaus - comes down. In Zinke's absence, the ritual is repeated to raise an equally obscure flag for Deputy Secretary David Bernhardt.
Responding this week to questions from The Washington Post, a spokeswoman for Zinke, a former Navy SEAL commander, defended the Navy flag-flying tradition as "a major sign of transparency."
posted by Bella Donna at 2:38 PM on March 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
At the Interior Department's headquarters in downtown Washington, D.C., Secretary Ryan Zinke has revived an arcane military ritual that no one can remember ever happening in the federal government.
A security staffer takes the elevator to the seventh floor, climbs the stairs to the roof and hoists a special secretarial flag whenever Zinke enters the building. When the secretary goes home for the day or travels, the flag - a blue banner emblazoned with the agency's bison seal flanked by seven white stars representing the Interior bureaus - comes down. In Zinke's absence, the ritual is repeated to raise an equally obscure flag for Deputy Secretary David Bernhardt.
Responding this week to questions from The Washington Post, a spokeswoman for Zinke, a former Navy SEAL commander, defended the Navy flag-flying tradition as "a major sign of transparency."
posted by Bella Donna at 2:38 PM on March 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
"I tell you frankly I don't need this title because I [could] be called General, I understand, for the rest of my life. And I don't need the money and I don't need the office space. Frank as it is - and maybe it's difficult to believe in the state of New York - I'd like to just be a good United States Senator. I'd like to serve."
-RFK
posted by clavdivs at 2:44 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
-RFK
posted by clavdivs at 2:44 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
And given the parties who are making this an issue
Yeah, this is the same party that is now attacking Biden on Twitter for bringing a binder to a press conference. Their criticisms should never be taken to be in good faith. They don't believe anything they're saying - the only thing that matters is that it sounds good to the tools that vote for them.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:50 PM on March 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
Yeah, this is the same party that is now attacking Biden on Twitter for bringing a binder to a press conference. Their criticisms should never be taken to be in good faith. They don't believe anything they're saying - the only thing that matters is that it sounds good to the tools that vote for them.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:50 PM on March 25, 2021 [15 favorites]
This is Lose:Lose; if she were saluting, that would be the news. Why does this nonsense get so much play? Because GOPers are great at managing the news cycle. I hate this shit.
posted by theora55 at 2:50 PM on March 25, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 2:50 PM on March 25, 2021 [24 favorites]
Really? “General” for AG is appropriate. I am gobsmacked.
posted by double bubble at 2:52 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by double bubble at 2:52 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is the same party that is now attacking Biden on Twitter for bringing a binder to a press conference.
Oh yeah, that reminds me of the scandal when Obama used a binder clip on a printout of the American Jobs Act in 2013.
posted by darkstar at 2:55 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah, that reminds me of the scandal when Obama used a binder clip on a printout of the American Jobs Act in 2013.
posted by darkstar at 2:55 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
George W. Bush. (Remember that time he donned a flight suit on the deck of an aircraft carrier?)
Bush was at one point a military aviator, so that wasn't 100% cosplay
posted by Dr. Twist at 2:55 PM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Bush was at one point a military aviator, so that wasn't 100% cosplay
posted by Dr. Twist at 2:55 PM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Eisenhower didn't wear his general's uniform while he was president.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:09 PM on March 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:09 PM on March 25, 2021 [12 favorites]
Don't forget Mitt Romney's binders full of women!
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:14 PM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:14 PM on March 25, 2021 [3 favorites]
From the same kind of morons, about 'swearing on a bible'. (Bonus CYE Theme version.)
It's not even an Amendment, it's in the base code of the US Constitution! Article 6, Clause 3: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
C'mon bubba, if you're going to be the party of rules-lawyering, at least read the rules.
posted by bartleby at 3:16 PM on March 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
It's not even an Amendment, it's in the base code of the US Constitution! Article 6, Clause 3: "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
C'mon bubba, if you're going to be the party of rules-lawyering, at least read the rules.
posted by bartleby at 3:16 PM on March 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
The President can at least be argued for on the grounds that they are in (at the top of specifically) the chain of command. The Vice President is not and should not be expected to pretend they are.
posted by tavella at 4:11 PM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by tavella at 4:11 PM on March 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
curious. Reagan started this firm salute but did so with all troops he saw. Saluting alot I take it as the president is around military all day at times. I just wonder if Reagan created an optic for the Soviets.
"President Truman, for example, was content to simply remove his hat."
posted by clavdivs at 4:22 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
"President Truman, for example, was content to simply remove his hat."
posted by clavdivs at 4:22 PM on March 25, 2021 [2 favorites]
Because GOPers are great at managing the news cycle.
While I don't watch Fox/OANN/NewsMax, I consider myself Extremely Online™ when it comes to US politics, and this is the first and only place I've seen this saluting thing come up.
Perhaps they aren't really that good at managing it.
posted by sideshow at 4:41 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
While I don't watch Fox/OANN/NewsMax, I consider myself Extremely Online™ when it comes to US politics, and this is the first and only place I've seen this saluting thing come up.
Perhaps they aren't really that good at managing it.
posted by sideshow at 4:41 PM on March 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
If the GOP is truly the party of rules-lawyering, I would like to discuss 4 U.S.C. § 1 (the U.S. Flag Code)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:43 PM on March 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:43 PM on March 25, 2021 [11 favorites]
Same as sideshow, this is the first time I'm hearing about this.
posted by subdee at 4:54 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 4:54 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
"General" is actually a correct form of address when speaking to an attorney general.
Sure, if it's preceded by the word "Attorney". Otherwise, no, because we don't address people as adjectives. Unless we are on the Supreme Court, where apparently this can be traced, like so many other bad ideas, to a certain Chief Justice Rehnquist. (Which rerails us right back to the OP.)
I wonder if he liked to be called "Chief"?
posted by Not A Thing at 5:08 PM on March 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
Sure, if it's preceded by the word "Attorney". Otherwise, no, because we don't address people as adjectives. Unless we are on the Supreme Court, where apparently this can be traced, like so many other bad ideas, to a certain Chief Justice Rehnquist. (Which rerails us right back to the OP.)
I wonder if he liked to be called "Chief"?
posted by Not A Thing at 5:08 PM on March 25, 2021 [9 favorites]
The only nice thing about this silliness was I learned that US soldiers only salute when they have headgear on. Not wearing a hat, don't offer up a salute. (At least according to several random people on twitter and wikipedia.)
posted by mark k at 5:48 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by mark k at 5:48 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sure, if it's preceded by the word "Attorney". Otherwise, no, because we don't address people as adjectives.
General is also a noun.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:46 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
General is also a noun.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:46 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
That the address is recognized feels like it's at odds with the pluralization "Attorneys General" (i.e. rather than Attorney Generals) but who knows.
posted by Sockdown at 7:44 PM on March 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Sockdown at 7:44 PM on March 25, 2021 [8 favorites]
As theora55 says, this is the exact same crowd who would be screeching if she were caught on camera saluting. Who does she think she is?! She's never served! Stolen Valor!
my brief time in uniform has left me with a sense of intense social pressure to return salutes
I still work around a lot of uniformed military, and even more than ten years after I retired, I have to stop the salute reflex when I unexpectedly meet someone in uniform coming around a corner or something. I bet if they saluted me first (which they do not, since why would they?) they'd trick me into it every time.
posted by ctmf at 8:05 PM on March 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
my brief time in uniform has left me with a sense of intense social pressure to return salutes
I still work around a lot of uniformed military, and even more than ten years after I retired, I have to stop the salute reflex when I unexpectedly meet someone in uniform coming around a corner or something. I bet if they saluted me first (which they do not, since why would they?) they'd trick me into it every time.
posted by ctmf at 8:05 PM on March 25, 2021 [6 favorites]
General is also a noun.
It kind of is and kind of isn't. It's short for 'general officer' in which it is an adjective. But 'kind of' because nobody knows that and common use and descriptive/prescriptive argument, etc.
And I guess if you're talking about the rank of general (O-10) itself and not the person, then... it's kind of still an adjective describing rank? It's been a long time since English class.
Regardless, they do get to be addressed as "general".
posted by ctmf at 8:15 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
It kind of is and kind of isn't. It's short for 'general officer' in which it is an adjective. But 'kind of' because nobody knows that and common use and descriptive/prescriptive argument, etc.
And I guess if you're talking about the rank of general (O-10) itself and not the person, then... it's kind of still an adjective describing rank? It's been a long time since English class.
Regardless, they do get to be addressed as "general".
posted by ctmf at 8:15 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
The wiki article says this is frequently done but wrong. I don't believe that address is an entitlement of the office in any way.
The title "attorney general" is an example of a noun (attorney) followed by a postpositive adjective (general).[9] "General" is a description of the type of attorney, not a title or rank in itself (as it would be in the military).[9] Even though the attorney general (and the similarly titled solicitor general) is often referred to as "General" or "General [last name]" by senior government officials, this is considered incorrect in standard American English usage.[9][10] For the same reason, the correct American English plural form is "attorneys general" rather than "attorney generals".[10]
It certainly seems to be a folk etymology.
posted by mark k at 8:30 PM on March 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
The title "attorney general" is an example of a noun (attorney) followed by a postpositive adjective (general).[9] "General" is a description of the type of attorney, not a title or rank in itself (as it would be in the military).[9] Even though the attorney general (and the similarly titled solicitor general) is often referred to as "General" or "General [last name]" by senior government officials, this is considered incorrect in standard American English usage.[9][10] For the same reason, the correct American English plural form is "attorneys general" rather than "attorney generals".[10]
It certainly seems to be a folk etymology.
posted by mark k at 8:30 PM on March 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
I prefer the old Hee Haw salute.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:27 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:27 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
It’s my understanding that the military rank of General is derived from an earlier senior rank of Captain General and the civilian titles of Attorney General and Solicitor General share similar origins as Captain General — thus making “General LastName” an not-unreasonable style for addressing an AG or SG. It is also my understanding that most US states had gotten away from its politicos calling their state AGs “General So-and-So” but Texas never did so it became a DC thing for the US AGs through the Texans serving in the administrations of Presidents Bush pere et fils.
posted by Ranucci at 9:36 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Ranucci at 9:36 PM on March 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
Quite frankly, the real question is why does this entire obsequious ceremony exist in the first place?
Why does the president need an honor guard in the first place?
Why do dozens of people need to stand around while elected officials walk up stairs one by one?
It's elitist and unbecoming in a democracy.
posted by madajb at 10:04 PM on March 25, 2021 [16 favorites]
Why does the president need an honor guard in the first place?
Why do dozens of people need to stand around while elected officials walk up stairs one by one?
It's elitist and unbecoming in a democracy.
posted by madajb at 10:04 PM on March 25, 2021 [16 favorites]
Why does the president need an honor guard in the first place?
January 6th, for one....
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:33 AM on March 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
January 6th, for one....
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:33 AM on March 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Personally I think everyone in the Biden admin should be required to do a finger gun. Higher ranks can get a double finger gun. Also all Federal vehicles should be old school Cameros or Firebirds.
This would lead to the Republicans having to wage a media war on Dudeness which I think would be hilarious "Whatever man" country.
posted by srboisvert at 3:29 AM on March 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
This would lead to the Republicans having to wage a media war on Dudeness which I think would be hilarious "Whatever man" country.
posted by srboisvert at 3:29 AM on March 26, 2021 [18 favorites]
In my ideal world, where English is perfectly consistent, everyone would agree that the "general" in "attorney general," "surgeon general," and "solicitor general," etc., is a post-positive adjective and it makes no sense to refer to any of those office-holders as "General So-and-so." It would be like referring to John Smith, professor emeritus as "Emeritus Smith." (In my ideal world no one ever says "me and my girlfriend went to the movies" or "please hand your papers to Barbara and I." It's a very nice imaginary world for the right sort of person.)
Alas, we are not living in my ideal world, and attorneys general have been addressed as "General Whomever" for at least a century on the state level, and increasing so at the federal level. I think it was Alberto Gonzales, AG for Bush the Lesser, who clearly preferred that usage and caused a noticeable uptick in its popularity, but I can't prove it at the moment. Relevant Language Log post here.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:00 AM on March 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
Alas, we are not living in my ideal world, and attorneys general have been addressed as "General Whomever" for at least a century on the state level, and increasing so at the federal level. I think it was Alberto Gonzales, AG for Bush the Lesser, who clearly preferred that usage and caused a noticeable uptick in its popularity, but I can't prove it at the moment. Relevant Language Log post here.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:00 AM on March 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
FWIW, in the two states that I'm personally familiar with, any attorney referring to the AG/AAG/DAG as a "general" would be greeted with either derision or bewilderment, and perhaps some pointed questions about where they got their law degree.
More generally, I think that Bryan Garner is right (ugh) that this usage represents a militarization of the law. It's not that the word "Attorney General" is accidentally happening to follow the same evolution as "Capteyn Generall" or whatever some centuries before; it's that it is being adopted and widely understood as a (fake) military title. (Hence the apparent early Tennessean custom of referring to the AG's opposing counsel as "colonel".)
This seems to be borne out by the fact that this usage appears to be most popular in precisely those parts of society (the Texan ruling party, the Supreme Court) that are most eager to reduce the US government to a standing army with some minor appendages.
Language Log's descriptivism seems a bit precious in this context. But it's probably true that this is more of a mildly annoying symptom than a cause of anything.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:50 AM on March 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
More generally, I think that Bryan Garner is right (ugh) that this usage represents a militarization of the law. It's not that the word "Attorney General" is accidentally happening to follow the same evolution as "Capteyn Generall" or whatever some centuries before; it's that it is being adopted and widely understood as a (fake) military title. (Hence the apparent early Tennessean custom of referring to the AG's opposing counsel as "colonel".)
This seems to be borne out by the fact that this usage appears to be most popular in precisely those parts of society (the Texan ruling party, the Supreme Court) that are most eager to reduce the US government to a standing army with some minor appendages.
Language Log's descriptivism seems a bit precious in this context. But it's probably true that this is more of a mildly annoying symptom than a cause of anything.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:50 AM on March 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
The vice presidential salute is not a thing
I approve this message.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:52 AM on March 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
I approve this message.
posted by Not A Thing at 7:52 AM on March 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Gosh, sorry to pedant; in this millennium it was AG John Ashcroft ("Let the eagle sooaaar") who first insisted on being called General. He was compensating for many, many things, not least of which was losing a Senate election to the dead Mel Carnahan.
posted by riverlife at 8:12 AM on March 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 8:12 AM on March 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
US soldiers only salute when they have headgear on
A sergeant who was escorting me once told me this:
Indoors, you're supposed to have your head uncovered (unless for special circumstances) while outdoors you're supposed to have your head covered. So the sergeant was outdoors and was walking by an officer who did not have a hat on. The sergeant took his own hat off to salute the officer.
I think this was like when you quote someone and put [sic] in the quote.
All this typing sergeant made me think of the Sergeant Major rank- would you call him/her Major?
posted by MtDewd at 8:33 AM on March 26, 2021
A sergeant who was escorting me once told me this:
Indoors, you're supposed to have your head uncovered (unless for special circumstances) while outdoors you're supposed to have your head covered. So the sergeant was outdoors and was walking by an officer who did not have a hat on. The sergeant took his own hat off to salute the officer.
I think this was like when you quote someone and put [sic] in the quote.
All this typing sergeant made me think of the Sergeant Major rank- would you call him/her Major?
posted by MtDewd at 8:33 AM on March 26, 2021
John Ashcroft! Not Rumsfeld. I knew i was remembering correctly except i was totally wrong.
For the record, I come down on the side of the VP not saluting. I’m okay if the Prez does or doesn’t salute. No one besides an actual General, or a person named General, should be addressed as “General”.
posted by double bubble at 8:43 AM on March 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
For the record, I come down on the side of the VP not saluting. I’m okay if the Prez does or doesn’t salute. No one besides an actual General, or a person named General, should be addressed as “General”.
posted by double bubble at 8:43 AM on March 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I'm more interested in whether or not elected officials are allowed to end the war.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 12:17 PM on March 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 12:17 PM on March 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Quite frankly, the real question is why does this entire obsequious ceremony exist in the first place?
madajb nails it. The 2-tierd military system of officers and enlisted exists in most militaries, and is deeply classist. Also incredibly hard to get rid of, but we should try. Dressed up grownups standing about is purely for the show of respect to the power present.
posted by theora55 at 4:54 PM on March 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
madajb nails it. The 2-tierd military system of officers and enlisted exists in most militaries, and is deeply classist. Also incredibly hard to get rid of, but we should try. Dressed up grownups standing about is purely for the show of respect to the power present.
posted by theora55 at 4:54 PM on March 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
If the president and vice president want to show support for the troops, they should work on getting them out of the forever wars in Syria and Afghanistan, instead of trying to keep them there.
posted by 445supermag at 4:58 PM on March 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by 445supermag at 4:58 PM on March 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
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posted by mhoye at 1:09 PM on March 25, 2021 [34 favorites]