Yet Another Imperialist Occupation of Afghanistan Ends in Disaster
April 16, 2021 6:49 AM Subscribe
Craig Murray ex British Ambassador to Uzbekistan 2002 - 2004 : The real story of the occupation of Afghanistan has hardly been aired in the mainstream media.
Caitlin Johnstone: US Intelligence Warns Withdrawal Could Lead To Afghanistan Being Controlled By Afghans.
Juan Cole: No, Biden ending the Afghanistan War isn’t a Disaster: The disaster was Dropping 7,400 Bombs on the Country Annually and Biden: ''Our reasons for remaining in Afghanistan have become increasingly unclear.'' As the US plans its Afghan troop withdrawal, what was it all for?
A view from the India and from Pakistan.
The withdrawal is only the solution to America's problem. The Taliban have different ideas.
With 18,000 contractors currently in the country is this just moving from Endless War to Endless Operations?
China sees an opportunity. Afghanistan previously on Metafilter.
Caitlin Johnstone: US Intelligence Warns Withdrawal Could Lead To Afghanistan Being Controlled By Afghans.
Juan Cole: No, Biden ending the Afghanistan War isn’t a Disaster: The disaster was Dropping 7,400 Bombs on the Country Annually and Biden: ''Our reasons for remaining in Afghanistan have become increasingly unclear.'' As the US plans its Afghan troop withdrawal, what was it all for?
A view from the India and from Pakistan.
The withdrawal is only the solution to America's problem. The Taliban have different ideas.
With 18,000 contractors currently in the country is this just moving from Endless War to Endless Operations?
China sees an opportunity. Afghanistan previously on Metafilter.
Just saw some reviews of a new book called "The Hardest Place" about how the American war there was essentially just...a waste. Though each of these comes from a different POV, they end up in agreement.
From the latter:
Everyone, and I mean everyone who deployed to Afghanistan on a combat mission and observed the purposeless and absurd nature of the war should read this book. There are Americans and Afghans who are thoughtful, and optimistic, and earnestly try to make things better, and Americans and Afghans and other foreigners who are cynical and egotistical and through their busy, careless actions make things exponentially worse. There aren’t heroes or villains.posted by wenestvedt at 7:01 AM on April 16, 2021 [9 favorites]
There aren’t heroes or villains.
I would consider the people in charge, Democrat and republican, who had all the facts and lied about them for nearly two decades to keep America in Afghanistan constitute villains.
posted by Reyturner at 7:07 AM on April 16, 2021 [33 favorites]
I would consider the people in charge, Democrat and republican, who had all the facts and lied about them for nearly two decades to keep America in Afghanistan constitute villains.
posted by Reyturner at 7:07 AM on April 16, 2021 [33 favorites]
I'd say there are plenty of villains to go around.
posted by signal at 7:11 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 7:11 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
We spent too many lives and vast sums of money with no clear objective. It was always a war of revenge, and if you do that, get in, raise hell, get out, but mostly, don't do that. Some horrible companies made shit-tons of profit. Afghanistan is still growing lots of heroin and selling it to us.
My son spent a year in Afghanistan, I'm thankful he got home. He left the Army rather than do a 2nd deployment; would have been another year. Most Americans seldom think of the war we've been in, it doesn't make much news. We have always been at war with %Country - Orwell is incredibly apt.
well done post, thank you.
posted by theora55 at 7:29 AM on April 16, 2021 [17 favorites]
My son spent a year in Afghanistan, I'm thankful he got home. He left the Army rather than do a 2nd deployment; would have been another year. Most Americans seldom think of the war we've been in, it doesn't make much news. We have always been at war with %Country - Orwell is incredibly apt.
well done post, thank you.
posted by theora55 at 7:29 AM on April 16, 2021 [17 favorites]
Meanwhile, China is posturing versus Taiwan, and Russia is posturing versus Ukraine. One or both will be our next Afghanistan. Because America actually needs an Afghanistan.
(Yes, Orwell was spot-on, "We have always been at war with Eustasia.")
posted by beagle at 7:38 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
(Yes, Orwell was spot-on, "We have always been at war with Eustasia.")
posted by beagle at 7:38 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yet Another Imperialist Occupation of Afghanistan Ends in Disaster
well, there's disasters and there's disasters. Pretty sure that unless something unfathomably horrific happens as (if?) the Americans withdraw, they'll be way down the scale from what happened to the British in 1842.
The Afghans launched numerous attacks against the column as it made slow progress through the winter snows of the Hindu Kush. In total the British army lost 4,500 troops, along with about 12,000 civilians: the latter comprising both the families of Indian and British soldiers, plus workmen, servants and other Indian camp-followers. The final stand was made just outside a village called Gandamak on 13 January.[5]
Out of more than 16,000 people from the column commanded by Elphinstone, only one European (Assistant Surgeon William Brydon) and a few Indian sepoys reached Jalalabad.
posted by philip-random at 8:00 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
well, there's disasters and there's disasters. Pretty sure that unless something unfathomably horrific happens as (if?) the Americans withdraw, they'll be way down the scale from what happened to the British in 1842.
The Afghans launched numerous attacks against the column as it made slow progress through the winter snows of the Hindu Kush. In total the British army lost 4,500 troops, along with about 12,000 civilians: the latter comprising both the families of Indian and British soldiers, plus workmen, servants and other Indian camp-followers. The final stand was made just outside a village called Gandamak on 13 January.[5]
Out of more than 16,000 people from the column commanded by Elphinstone, only one European (Assistant Surgeon William Brydon) and a few Indian sepoys reached Jalalabad.
posted by philip-random at 8:00 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
Related but probably for another FPP
Erik Prince resigned yesterday from the company he founded Frontier Services Company citing "due to his other business engagements".
Prince actively lobbied the last American president to privatize the Afgan war probably to enhance among other things, his mining interests. Prince is no stranger to Afghanistan.
posted by adamvasco at 8:10 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
Erik Prince resigned yesterday from the company he founded Frontier Services Company citing "due to his other business engagements".
Prince actively lobbied the last American president to privatize the Afgan war probably to enhance among other things, his mining interests. Prince is no stranger to Afghanistan.
posted by adamvasco at 8:10 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
I guess what I don't understand is why the people in charge seem to view just leaving as impossible and/or undesirable.
Either I'm very, very, stupid and ignorant and missing something huge, or our government is just bombing the fuck out of semi-random places in the Middle East for no real reason.
I mean, sure, sure, General Atomics, Lockeed Martin, and all the other war profiteers are getting money from the USt taxpayer, and that explains their interest in continuing the ongoing infinite war. And I suppose we can write off Junior and Trump as slime who wage war for the benefit of the war corporations.
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason? I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit. Are they genuinely, honestly, convinced that somehow the endless war is beneficial to America in some way?
posted by sotonohito at 8:16 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Either I'm very, very, stupid and ignorant and missing something huge, or our government is just bombing the fuck out of semi-random places in the Middle East for no real reason.
I mean, sure, sure, General Atomics, Lockeed Martin, and all the other war profiteers are getting money from the USt taxpayer, and that explains their interest in continuing the ongoing infinite war. And I suppose we can write off Junior and Trump as slime who wage war for the benefit of the war corporations.
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason? I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit. Are they genuinely, honestly, convinced that somehow the endless war is beneficial to America in some way?
posted by sotonohito at 8:16 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Caitlin Johnstone
This is a serious question: When did she separate from the right-wing conspiracy community and become considered not a nutjob?
I know even back then she spouted leftists beliefs, but she was, uhhhh, saying some pretty ridiculous shit for a long time and suddenly I've seen a resurgence of her with her professional website, instead of just her Twitter.
Just... hard to take any links from her very seriously still, but if people come with receipts that she has grown and become better, I'm willing to consider reading her stuff now. I've just been wary of it because I remember how off-the-rails she was in 2016...
posted by deadaluspark at 8:19 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is a serious question: When did she separate from the right-wing conspiracy community and become considered not a nutjob?
I know even back then she spouted leftists beliefs, but she was, uhhhh, saying some pretty ridiculous shit for a long time and suddenly I've seen a resurgence of her with her professional website, instead of just her Twitter.
Just... hard to take any links from her very seriously still, but if people come with receipts that she has grown and become better, I'm willing to consider reading her stuff now. I've just been wary of it because I remember how off-the-rails she was in 2016...
posted by deadaluspark at 8:19 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Did Biden end the Afganistan war or delay its end? Isn't it actually delaying its planned withdrawal for five months.
posted by asra at 8:23 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by asra at 8:23 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
well, there's disasters and there's disasters.
Maybe don't "well, actually" a war that has ended up with over 110,000 deaths and innumerable casualties, at least a third of which are civilians?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:28 AM on April 16, 2021 [18 favorites]
Maybe don't "well, actually" a war that has ended up with over 110,000 deaths and innumerable casualties, at least a third of which are civilians?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:28 AM on April 16, 2021 [18 favorites]
One of Trump's good plan was to pull out by May 1st. It got terrible feedback in the media and military industrial complex for whom the MSM was shilling. Now Biden decides it is a good idea to do so 5 months later, after canceling Trump's withdrawal date, and it is now a good idea.
If only Rambo III was more watched, our leaders would have understood how hard and pointless it would be.
posted by AugustWest at 8:37 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
If only Rambo III was more watched, our leaders would have understood how hard and pointless it would be.
posted by AugustWest at 8:37 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
The article linked by asra above says it all. The headline says we are going to keep fighting for peace. Oxymoron much.
posted by AugustWest at 8:41 AM on April 16, 2021
posted by AugustWest at 8:41 AM on April 16, 2021
. And I suppose we can write off Junior and Trump as slime who wage war for the benefit of the war corporations.
I hate t*ump with the fire of a thousand suns - him and his coterie of world-destroying grfiting racist assholes should be in jail (at mildest) as we speak - but a stopped clock psychopathic narcissistic imbecile is in fact right twice a day presidential term.
He wanted out of afghanistan.
posted by lalochezia at 8:41 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
I hate t*ump with the fire of a thousand suns - him and his coterie of world-destroying grfiting racist assholes should be in jail (at mildest) as we speak - but a stopped
He wanted out of afghanistan.
posted by lalochezia at 8:41 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit. Are they genuinely, honestly, convinced that somehow the endless war is beneficial to America in some way?
I think there have been many people in the US government and military who honestly believed that an American military presence was necessary to preserve Afghan civil society, democracy, and the rights of women. And they didn’t want to be responsible for these things disappearing when America withdrew. We can argue about whether they were right, and we can certainly condemn their tactics, but I think they were mostly acting in good faith.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:50 AM on April 16, 2021 [18 favorites]
I think there have been many people in the US government and military who honestly believed that an American military presence was necessary to preserve Afghan civil society, democracy, and the rights of women. And they didn’t want to be responsible for these things disappearing when America withdrew. We can argue about whether they were right, and we can certainly condemn their tactics, but I think they were mostly acting in good faith.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:50 AM on April 16, 2021 [18 favorites]
I participated in at least one peace march in New York City in the weeks following 9/11; a common slogan on the signs many people carried was "Our Grief Is Not A Call For War." We were all dismissed as "hippies" or "libtards" at best, "un-American" at worst, and the rest of the country stampeded off to join the call for war.
Meanwhile, the things that the actual survivors of 9/11 were asking for - health support for the First Responders, for one - we didn't get. Largely because - we needed the money to continue the war in Afghanistan, which we didn't even want in the first place.
Let the record again show that I, a live witness to 9/11, never wanted this war to happen. I certainly hope the rest of the country felt it was worth it and it helped assuage whatever hurt feelings everyone else got after watching my city blow up on their TV's.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on April 16, 2021 [54 favorites]
Meanwhile, the things that the actual survivors of 9/11 were asking for - health support for the First Responders, for one - we didn't get. Largely because - we needed the money to continue the war in Afghanistan, which we didn't even want in the first place.
Let the record again show that I, a live witness to 9/11, never wanted this war to happen. I certainly hope the rest of the country felt it was worth it and it helped assuage whatever hurt feelings everyone else got after watching my city blow up on their TV's.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on April 16, 2021 [54 favorites]
Afghanistan has the reputation of being the graveyard of empires, but, in the case of the Soviet Union and the American empire, those empires were dying when they went in.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:03 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:03 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
America lost the war on drugs and the war on terror. Maybe they should stop declaring war on stupid shit.
posted by dazed_one at 9:06 AM on April 16, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by dazed_one at 9:06 AM on April 16, 2021 [14 favorites]
What's clearly long overdue is a war on wars.
posted by flabdablet at 9:07 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:07 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
"We have always been at war with Eustasia."
Them and their bloody tubes!
posted by Naberius at 9:13 AM on April 16, 2021 [25 favorites]
Them and their bloody tubes!
posted by Naberius at 9:13 AM on April 16, 2021 [25 favorites]
Let the record again show that I, a live witness to 9/11, never wanted this war to happen.
The only reason it did is because there was a complete fuckwit behind the Resolute Desk. As lots and lots and lots of us remarked, loudly and often, at the time.
It was always a case of Something Must Be Done, This Is Something, Therefore This Must Be Done. On no well informed analysis was it ever a sound plan.
posted by flabdablet at 9:16 AM on April 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
The only reason it did is because there was a complete fuckwit behind the Resolute Desk. As lots and lots and lots of us remarked, loudly and often, at the time.
It was always a case of Something Must Be Done, This Is Something, Therefore This Must Be Done. On no well informed analysis was it ever a sound plan.
posted by flabdablet at 9:16 AM on April 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
Here are contrasting photographs of an Afghan park in 1980 and 2014. That's beyond the living memory of almost half the population. They wouldn't recognize their own country during peacetime. An entire generation at war will likely take a further generation without war to replace them.
As for the cost, let's do some math.
We've spent 1000000000usd
The population is ~40000000
Most typical wage is 1000usd/pa
We could have given the entire population a paid vacation for twenty five years. I feel like that would have been more productive. Makes you wonder what could have been done if that money wasn't spent violently.
posted by adept256 at 9:21 AM on April 16, 2021 [18 favorites]
As for the cost, let's do some math.
We've spent 1000000000usd
The population is ~40000000
Most typical wage is 1000usd/pa
We could have given the entire population a paid vacation for twenty five years. I feel like that would have been more productive. Makes you wonder what could have been done if that money wasn't spent violently.
posted by adept256 at 9:21 AM on April 16, 2021 [18 favorites]
It was a goddamned disgrace from the beginning. Sadly, I doubt that the vast majority of my fellow Americans have learned anything from this, despite the blood they've spilled and the money they've squandered.
"Ends in Disaster..." : It hasn't ended yet, despite the rhetoric. Dragging this 'withdrawal' out until 9/11 is a publicity stunt that practically guarantees further senseless loss of life on both sides. No matter what happens going forward, for America this is already another lost war for everyone except the profiteers, who you can bet are prepping the next one.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/12/26/wapos-afghan-papers-propagate-colonial-narrative-noble-intentions-gone-awry
posted by torii hugger at 9:30 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Ends in Disaster..." : It hasn't ended yet, despite the rhetoric. Dragging this 'withdrawal' out until 9/11 is a publicity stunt that practically guarantees further senseless loss of life on both sides. No matter what happens going forward, for America this is already another lost war for everyone except the profiteers, who you can bet are prepping the next one.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/12/26/wapos-afghan-papers-propagate-colonial-narrative-noble-intentions-gone-awry
posted by torii hugger at 9:30 AM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple?
Given that both have served as President of the United States, I would have thought the answer to that was completely obvious.
posted by flabdablet at 9:31 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Given that both have served as President of the United States, I would have thought the answer to that was completely obvious.
posted by flabdablet at 9:31 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
I thought this from Rob Farley at LGM was good: Joe Biden and the Weird Politics of Afghanistan
posted by General Malaise at 9:35 AM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by General Malaise at 9:35 AM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Afghanistan has the reputation of being the graveyard of empires, but, in the case of the Soviet Union and the American empire, those empires were dying when they went in.
Generally you're not in great health by the time you go in to a graveyard.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:39 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
Generally you're not in great health by the time you go in to a graveyard.
posted by saturday_morning at 9:39 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
Rory Stewart is a former British diplomat who, as a young man, imitated his boyhood hero Lawrence of Arabia and walked several thousand miles across Afghanistan on his own, relying on local hospitality. Later, he was an occupation Governor of 2 Iraqi districts.
His opinion; American military officers look to Lawrence as the man who cracked how to fight in th e Middle East. But what Lawrence learned was how to win as an anti-imperialist insurgent, and that imperial forces will never be welcome and will always face insurgencies until they leave.
The Americans think that they can somehow hack Lawrence’s techniques to win while playing as The Ottomans.
The Legacy of Lawrence of Arabia. Pt 2
Afghanistan: The Great Game. Pt 2
Rory Stewart: “It’s Time to End the War in Afghanistan (2011)”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:47 AM on April 16, 2021 [20 favorites]
His opinion; American military officers look to Lawrence as the man who cracked how to fight in th e Middle East. But what Lawrence learned was how to win as an anti-imperialist insurgent, and that imperial forces will never be welcome and will always face insurgencies until they leave.
The Americans think that they can somehow hack Lawrence’s techniques to win while playing as The Ottomans.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:47 AM on April 16, 2021 [20 favorites]
I wish the last 20 years of U.S. military adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq had not happened. At all. I agree also with the upthread comments about military-industrial motivations for all of this, along with ego, hubris, etc.
That said, the Near East and Middle East have both been contested by empires for a very long time. The obvious reason not to withdraw (this time) is Zombie NATO v. Zombie Warsaw Pact proxy wars, along with ongoing U.S. interests in having presence in the region(-ish) to maintain “stability” in the Middle East. Among countless other reasons. So long as the U.S. is able, it will always find a reason to go to war in that region, whether directly or by funding local conflicts.
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:51 AM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
That said, the Near East and Middle East have both been contested by empires for a very long time. The obvious reason not to withdraw (this time) is Zombie NATO v. Zombie Warsaw Pact proxy wars, along with ongoing U.S. interests in having presence in the region(-ish) to maintain “stability” in the Middle East. Among countless other reasons. So long as the U.S. is able, it will always find a reason to go to war in that region, whether directly or by funding local conflicts.
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:51 AM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
The people surprised by the U.S.'s penchant for waging war on the world's poor are cute.
posted by signal at 9:53 AM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by signal at 9:53 AM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
US Intelligence Warns Withdrawal Could Lead To Afghanistan Being Controlled By Afghans
Prediction: those most horrified by this will the same people most horrified by the prospect of the USA being controlled by Americans.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
Prediction: those most horrified by this will the same people most horrified by the prospect of the USA being controlled by Americans.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason? I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit. Are they genuinely, honestly, convinced that somehow the endless war is beneficial to America in some way?I see this as showing the incredible inertia in the system: generations of conflating support for the latest war as support for the troops, and a propaganda machine with a budget measured in billions dollars per year. Obama was certainly no pacifist but he was coming into an environment where the ultra-hawks represented the same group of people “joking” about lynching him and claiming that he was secretly serving Muslim terrorists, the Taliban were objectively terrible, and at every instance it’s just so much easier to listen to the voices saying you can make things better rather than buck the system. You’ll even have things to point to like girls schools which are a lot more pleasant to focus on than the slow, numb grind of deaths the country is studiously trying to ignore. The President has a lot of power but it’s far from dictatorial and picking a fight with Congress and the military is not a minor political challenge.
posted by adamsc at 10:14 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
One of the questions I'd like to ask Daniel Ellsberg if I could is the 'compare and contrast' of our two military interventions in Korea and Vietnam; did it just boil down to "winnability" at an acceptable cost?
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:21 AM on April 16, 2021
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:21 AM on April 16, 2021
They think so little of non-American, non-Western-European lives
I'd argue they didn't think all that much of American lives either. And why date this to 9/11/2021 of all dates? Tin eared doesn't begin to cover it.
Obama was certainly no pacifist but....
Neither was Hillary.
Nor Madeleine: 'What's the point of having this superb military you're always talking about if we can't use it?'.
Afghanistan has the reputation of being the graveyard of empires
Alexander the Great came, saw, conquered, then made peace by marrying a local princess and maintaining local customs. Can't imagine any American would-be Alexander doing that.
posted by BWA at 10:22 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
I'd argue they didn't think all that much of American lives either. And why date this to 9/11/2021 of all dates? Tin eared doesn't begin to cover it.
Obama was certainly no pacifist but....
Neither was Hillary.
Nor Madeleine: 'What's the point of having this superb military you're always talking about if we can't use it?'.
Afghanistan has the reputation of being the graveyard of empires
Alexander the Great came, saw, conquered, then made peace by marrying a local princess and maintaining local customs. Can't imagine any American would-be Alexander doing that.
posted by BWA at 10:22 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
I imagine they didn't want to pull out of the place we never should have been because the Taliban is going to go on a blood bath after the US pulls out.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:29 AM on April 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:29 AM on April 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
Withdrawal Could Lead To Afghanistan Being Controlled By Afghans.
Let's not erase the Afghans who are going to be screwed under the likely Taliban takeover.
Yes, they've been used for propaganda, yes, the U.S. is sexist and anti-queer itself, yes the post-9/11 wars were shit ideas and have been an absolutely shit 20 years on so many levels. Nevertheless. These are real people. Let's not use language that makes them invisible.
Also, re-open the fucking refugee programs Biden are you hearing me.
posted by away for regrooving at 10:42 AM on April 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
Let's not erase the Afghans who are going to be screwed under the likely Taliban takeover.
Yes, they've been used for propaganda, yes, the U.S. is sexist and anti-queer itself, yes the post-9/11 wars were shit ideas and have been an absolutely shit 20 years on so many levels. Nevertheless. These are real people. Let's not use language that makes them invisible.
Also, re-open the fucking refugee programs Biden are you hearing me.
posted by away for regrooving at 10:42 AM on April 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple?
Yes, and yes.
posted by so fucking future at 10:52 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yes, and yes.
posted by so fucking future at 10:52 AM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Alexander the Great came, saw, conquered, then made peace by marrying a local princess and maintaining local customs.
"veni, vidi, vici"
usually attributed to Caesar.
he did the same thing, but castagated himself for not being popular as Caeser
posted by clavdivs at 11:07 AM on April 16, 2021
"veni, vidi, vici"
usually attributed to Caesar.
he did the same thing, but castagated himself for not being popular as Caeser
posted by clavdivs at 11:07 AM on April 16, 2021
he did the same thing, but castagated himself for not being popular as Caeser
Um, what? Alexander died over 200 years before Caesar was born.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:15 AM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Um, what? Alexander died over 200 years before Caesar was born.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:15 AM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
From the Vietnam era I remember, "It's not a good war but it's the only war we've got". Wars, conflicts, threats of war and manned space exploration are huge profit centers for the industries involved. Be assured there is always another one ready and waiting to be loaded into the chamber. The spice must flow...
posted by jim in austin at 11:29 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 11:29 AM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
"his quaestorship in Hispania after her funeral, in the spring or early summer of 69 BC.While there, he is said to have encountered a statue of Alexander the Great, and realised with dissatisfaction that he was now at an age when Alexander had the world at his feet, while he had achieved comparatively little."
posted by clavdivs at 11:39 AM on April 16, 2021
posted by clavdivs at 11:39 AM on April 16, 2021
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason? I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit. Are they genuinely, honestly, convinced that somehow the endless war is beneficial to America in some way?
in 2001 I was working at a hard left newspaper. Until I protested loudly on our intranet, we brought all the same propaganda as the mainstream and hard right press. I feel there was a sort of collective psychosis at the time. And I suffered from it too, just in a slightly different way.
Anyway, the problems in Afghanistan stretch back to the Sovjet invasion, but it isn't only their fault. The ridiculous idea of financing local bandits and Islamist terrorists to fight the Sovjets strongly contributed to the rise of the Taliban.
I can to some extent understand why politicians feel a responsibility for the mess and want to repair the broken society. And you know, if your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. For the US president, the military is the most accessible and visible tool. I would have loved for Obama to invest in community organizing in Afganistan on a monumental scale. But he literally couldn't do it. It was not in his toolbox, as a president.
The Marshall Plan was a massive peace and democracy plan. But as we all know, by the time Eisenhower left the presidency, the military-industrial-complex had become too powerful to oppose.
posted by mumimor at 11:45 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
in 2001 I was working at a hard left newspaper. Until I protested loudly on our intranet, we brought all the same propaganda as the mainstream and hard right press. I feel there was a sort of collective psychosis at the time. And I suffered from it too, just in a slightly different way.
Anyway, the problems in Afghanistan stretch back to the Sovjet invasion, but it isn't only their fault. The ridiculous idea of financing local bandits and Islamist terrorists to fight the Sovjets strongly contributed to the rise of the Taliban.
I can to some extent understand why politicians feel a responsibility for the mess and want to repair the broken society. And you know, if your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. For the US president, the military is the most accessible and visible tool. I would have loved for Obama to invest in community organizing in Afganistan on a monumental scale. But he literally couldn't do it. It was not in his toolbox, as a president.
The Marshall Plan was a massive peace and democracy plan. But as we all know, by the time Eisenhower left the presidency, the military-industrial-complex had become too powerful to oppose.
posted by mumimor at 11:45 AM on April 16, 2021 [6 favorites]
I guess what I don't understand is why the people in charge seem to view just leaving as impossible and/or undesirable.
Either I'm very, very, stupid and ignorant and missing something huge, or our government is just bombing the fuck out of semi-random places in the Middle East for no real reason.
I mean, sure, sure, General Atomics, Lockeed Martin, and all the other war profiteers are getting money from the USt taxpayer, and that explains their interest in continuing the ongoing infinite war. And I suppose we can write off Junior and Trump as slime who wage war for the benefit of the war corporations.
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason? I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit. Are they genuinely, honestly, convinced that somehow the endless war is beneficial to America in some way?
What I find interesting about this is the assumption that of course everyone at Lockheed Martin and the Bush clan, and Cheney, and Trump are just plain bad guys who will do anything for money.
[N.b. particularly interesting in that Trump often angered the military-security-journalism complex by pulling out of armed conflicts in a way they disapproved of, not because he was smarter than them but because he was, in a way, too dumb for their smart arguments for bad ideas to work on him.]
On the other hand, the assumption that Obama, and Biden, the rest of the Democratic party are basically righteous people. This is the theory of Barack Obama as the guy you'd most want to have a microbrew beer with at your girlfriend's roller derby game.
So of course theories then have to be constructed whereby members of the Democratic party but not other participants in this unholy murder circus have made unfortunate errors while other supporters of the war are profiteers. Endless excuses about the political constraints that prevented full freedom of action for Obama, but the assumption that GWB not only did only and exactly what he wanted to do but did it purely for low reasons while even the American teenagers murdered by Barack Obama were ultimately killed in a good cause.
The reality is, yes, a very substantial proportion of the Democratic party including Biden, Obama, Clinton[s], and many others take it absolutely for granted that the US should dominate the world. Their criticism of their opponents' foreign policies are often essentially that the Republicans are bad managers of the empire.
It reminds me of the British Liberal imperialists of the early 20th century who took it for granted that the Empire would endure but who wanted substantial self rule for its subject nations. They dreamt of an Imperial Cabinet where the elected leaders of India, Canada, and Australia would take their places as subaltern leaders in a kinder British dominated world order... suffice it to say that these ideas never included a British Imperial cabinet where the prime minister of the UK was not ex-officio the prime minister of the empire.
I don't necessarily mind the "America First" attitude, you won't find Macron denying that he governs for France first after all, but the sanctimony is sickening.
posted by atrazine at 12:00 PM on April 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
Either I'm very, very, stupid and ignorant and missing something huge, or our government is just bombing the fuck out of semi-random places in the Middle East for no real reason.
I mean, sure, sure, General Atomics, Lockeed Martin, and all the other war profiteers are getting money from the USt taxpayer, and that explains their interest in continuing the ongoing infinite war. And I suppose we can write off Junior and Trump as slime who wage war for the benefit of the war corporations.
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason? I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit. Are they genuinely, honestly, convinced that somehow the endless war is beneficial to America in some way?
What I find interesting about this is the assumption that of course everyone at Lockheed Martin and the Bush clan, and Cheney, and Trump are just plain bad guys who will do anything for money.
[N.b. particularly interesting in that Trump often angered the military-security-journalism complex by pulling out of armed conflicts in a way they disapproved of, not because he was smarter than them but because he was, in a way, too dumb for their smart arguments for bad ideas to work on him.]
On the other hand, the assumption that Obama, and Biden, the rest of the Democratic party are basically righteous people. This is the theory of Barack Obama as the guy you'd most want to have a microbrew beer with at your girlfriend's roller derby game.
So of course theories then have to be constructed whereby members of the Democratic party but not other participants in this unholy murder circus have made unfortunate errors while other supporters of the war are profiteers. Endless excuses about the political constraints that prevented full freedom of action for Obama, but the assumption that GWB not only did only and exactly what he wanted to do but did it purely for low reasons while even the American teenagers murdered by Barack Obama were ultimately killed in a good cause.
The reality is, yes, a very substantial proportion of the Democratic party including Biden, Obama, Clinton[s], and many others take it absolutely for granted that the US should dominate the world. Their criticism of their opponents' foreign policies are often essentially that the Republicans are bad managers of the empire.
It reminds me of the British Liberal imperialists of the early 20th century who took it for granted that the Empire would endure but who wanted substantial self rule for its subject nations. They dreamt of an Imperial Cabinet where the elected leaders of India, Canada, and Australia would take their places as subaltern leaders in a kinder British dominated world order... suffice it to say that these ideas never included a British Imperial cabinet where the prime minister of the UK was not ex-officio the prime minister of the empire.
I don't necessarily mind the "America First" attitude, you won't find Macron denying that he governs for France first after all, but the sanctimony is sickening.
posted by atrazine at 12:00 PM on April 16, 2021 [13 favorites]
The Marshall Plan was a massive peace and democracy plan. But as we all know, by the time Eisenhower left the presidency, the military-industrial-complex had become too powerful to oppose.
True to extent, esp. with Ike's qoate.
still.."Out of this conflict between idealistic principles and practical self-interest sprang the CIA's first peacetime covert operations. In The CIA and the Marshall Plan historian Sallie Pisani shows how the U.S. added a Cold War corollary to the principle of self-determination: massive foreign aid and nonmilitary covert operations to reshape war-torn Europe in the image of the U.S"
posted by clavdivs at 12:32 PM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
True to extent, esp. with Ike's qoate.
still.."Out of this conflict between idealistic principles and practical self-interest sprang the CIA's first peacetime covert operations. In The CIA and the Marshall Plan historian Sallie Pisani shows how the U.S. added a Cold War corollary to the principle of self-determination: massive foreign aid and nonmilitary covert operations to reshape war-torn Europe in the image of the U.S"
posted by clavdivs at 12:32 PM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
From the Vietnam era I remember, "It's not a good war but it's the only war we've got".
At least part of the problem is that its propping up the economy. If the military budget was eliminated, the unemployment rate would jump at least 4-5%. (Soldiers are less than half of that, but when you add in defense contractors and the industries in marketing, real estate, etc. that service them, it adds up.)
It would take a plan coordinated with all our allies to transition (probably over a decade at least) to an economy less dependant on the military-industrial complex.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 1:14 PM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
At least part of the problem is that its propping up the economy. If the military budget was eliminated, the unemployment rate would jump at least 4-5%. (Soldiers are less than half of that, but when you add in defense contractors and the industries in marketing, real estate, etc. that service them, it adds up.)
It would take a plan coordinated with all our allies to transition (probably over a decade at least) to an economy less dependant on the military-industrial complex.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 1:14 PM on April 16, 2021 [4 favorites]
Wars, conflicts, threats of war and manned space exploration are huge profit centers for the industries involved.
I would gladly spend all the dollars we spend on wars, conflicts, and threats of war on just manned space exploration. Granted that in many cases there are more cost-effective ways to do science, but at least it's not an endeavor that has killing and maiming as its deliberate and central function.
posted by nickmark at 1:51 PM on April 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
I would gladly spend all the dollars we spend on wars, conflicts, and threats of war on just manned space exploration. Granted that in many cases there are more cost-effective ways to do science, but at least it's not an endeavor that has killing and maiming as its deliberate and central function.
posted by nickmark at 1:51 PM on April 16, 2021 [7 favorites]
I would gladly spend all the dollars we spend on wars, conflicts, and threats of war on just manned space exploration
Quite: if somehow building a bunch of pointless stuff just to destroy it is 'good for the economy', then launching it into space is surely far preferable to using it to murder other people.
posted by Pyry at 2:11 PM on April 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
Quite: if somehow building a bunch of pointless stuff just to destroy it is 'good for the economy', then launching it into space is surely far preferable to using it to murder other people.
posted by Pyry at 2:11 PM on April 16, 2021 [10 favorites]
I think that's how Von Braun justified his contribution to rocketry. I suggest The series 'Mars' concerning possible problems with exploring the solar system because in space, someone eventually brings a gun.
posted by clavdivs at 2:21 PM on April 16, 2021
posted by clavdivs at 2:21 PM on April 16, 2021
Craig Murray outed a sexual assault complainer on TV and currently awaits sentencing after being found guilty of contempt of court after he tried to do much the same kind of thing to the women in the Alex Salmond sexual assault case. Maybe find someone less skeevy for your anti-imperialist commentary needs.
posted by Flitcraft at 2:37 PM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Flitcraft at 2:37 PM on April 16, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've never heard any explanation from either of them that wasn't, to me anyway, transparent bullshit.
The military is the only full-employment program, the only education-subsidy program, and the only job training program and the only regional small-business subsidy program that the Republican party will support.
posted by mhoye at 2:48 PM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
The military is the only full-employment program, the only education-subsidy program, and the only job training program and the only regional small-business subsidy program that the Republican party will support.
posted by mhoye at 2:48 PM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
Don't forget the healthcare! Well, until you get to the VA...
posted by nickmark at 3:16 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by nickmark at 3:16 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
business subsidy program that the Republican party will support.
posted by mhoye
My army recruiters office, in a mall.
Navy recruiters office, in a mall.
posted by clavdivs at 4:38 PM on April 16, 2021
posted by mhoye
My army recruiters office, in a mall.
Navy recruiters office, in a mall.
posted by clavdivs at 4:38 PM on April 16, 2021
I rewatched those Rory Stewart documentaries I linked upthread. I’m reminded of the scenes where he gets access to the Russian archives to look into what Russia was thinking during the Victorian era “Great Game” and during the 1970s. And why they stayed as long as they did.
And the Russian motivation often parallels the British motivation for staying so long. Every Empire runs into the same problem;
America can’t abide the thought that that many of its soldiers and that much money has been wasted only to leave “The Taliban” in charge just the same as the day before we invaded.
But that’s essentially the bitter medicine America will have to swallow if we want out, Because essentially that’s what has always happened whenever an Empire limps out of Afghanistan; The most competent enemy they fought will take over, with or without their consent.
America is holding out for someone not-the-Taliban to take over so we can get out and not have to admit we threw that many lives into the woordchipper for absolutely nothing. America needs all those lives to somehow not have been casually thrown away for nothing.
And we’ll keep feeding lives and money into that woodchipper until we accept that is exactly what will happen after we leave. The only question is “Who will be the last soldier to die for this mistake?”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:54 PM on April 16, 2021 [23 favorites]
And the Russian motivation often parallels the British motivation for staying so long. Every Empire runs into the same problem;
Once enough blood and treasure has been poured on the sand, Empires fall into the sunk-cost fallacy. Imperial honor and “face” cannot abide feeling like they lost, and keep sending a new General who will make this “The Decisive Year” (watch RS’s TED talk to see how many times that term has been used in Aghanistan).That is what America has been killing and destroying over, and why it has taken this long to to disengage more than a decade past when Afghanistan represents ANY threat to the US. The worst mistake they ever made was supporting al-Q’aeda, so they won’t make that mistake again.
America can’t abide the thought that that many of its soldiers and that much money has been wasted only to leave “The Taliban” in charge just the same as the day before we invaded.
But that’s essentially the bitter medicine America will have to swallow if we want out, Because essentially that’s what has always happened whenever an Empire limps out of Afghanistan; The most competent enemy they fought will take over, with or without their consent.
America is holding out for someone not-the-Taliban to take over so we can get out and not have to admit we threw that many lives into the woordchipper for absolutely nothing. America needs all those lives to somehow not have been casually thrown away for nothing.
And we’ll keep feeding lives and money into that woodchipper until we accept that is exactly what will happen after we leave. The only question is “Who will be the last soldier to die for this mistake?”
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:54 PM on April 16, 2021 [23 favorites]
Well said, PBZM.
posted by ctmf at 6:23 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by ctmf at 6:23 PM on April 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, China is posturing versus Taiwan, and Russia is posturing versus Ukraine. One or both will be our next Afghanistan.
I'm not clear what this is supposed to mean. As noted repeatedly above, Afghanistan was a war of revenge with no clear objective. That seems entirely different than those two situations, which would be defending a country from invasion. It's fair to hold the position that the US should never engage in foreign military actions at all but if, say, China did invade Taiwan and the US decided to come to the aid of its not-ally-but-ally, that seems like a legitimate reason for foreign engagement.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:02 PM on April 16, 2021
I'm not clear what this is supposed to mean. As noted repeatedly above, Afghanistan was a war of revenge with no clear objective. That seems entirely different than those two situations, which would be defending a country from invasion. It's fair to hold the position that the US should never engage in foreign military actions at all but if, say, China did invade Taiwan and the US decided to come to the aid of its not-ally-but-ally, that seems like a legitimate reason for foreign engagement.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:02 PM on April 16, 2021
I mean, if it was a war of revenge, supposedly, it really wasn't right to invade Afghanistan to start with at any rate. Osama BL was a Saudi, and a majority of the other people involved in 9/11 were Saudis, Egyptians, Lebanese, and UAEeans. It doesn't matter if any "plotting" occurred in Afghanistan; OBL had been working from various cells all over the world over the years, and he was taken down in Pakistan. Even if he'd spent time in Afghanistan, that's not a justifiable reason to go the war there. The Taliban is a separate issue, even assuming the Taliban government permitted OBL to reside in Afghanistan. The Taliban and al-Qaeda are distinct entities, and al-Qaeda (even if state sponsored) is not a legit government body or nation. We basically invaded Afghanistan and violated the statehood of a sovereign country prior to having any strong evidence to suggest that Afghanistan was responsible. Because Afghanistan wasn't responsible.
posted by erattacorrige at 8:07 PM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by erattacorrige at 8:07 PM on April 16, 2021 [5 favorites]
We basically invaded Afghanistan and violated the statehood of a sovereign country prior to having any strong evidence to suggest that Afghanistan was responsible. Because Afghanistan wasn't responsible.
And then we did the same to Iraq, with even less justification.
I don't think the endlessness of these wars is unrelated to their illegitimacy. If you are in there supporting a majority of people who have a fair claim to their land and democracy, they will be on your side. But both in Afghanistan and Iraq our "allies" were invented for the cause, they had no legitimacy, and they were crooked and corrupt.
posted by mumimor at 11:59 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
And then we did the same to Iraq, with even less justification.
I don't think the endlessness of these wars is unrelated to their illegitimacy. If you are in there supporting a majority of people who have a fair claim to their land and democracy, they will be on your side. But both in Afghanistan and Iraq our "allies" were invented for the cause, they had no legitimacy, and they were crooked and corrupt.
posted by mumimor at 11:59 PM on April 16, 2021 [2 favorites]
Adam Curtis made a film about entanglements in Afghanistan a few years ago: Bitter Lake. For those who like Adam Curtis films about things.
posted by Grangousier at 3:42 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:42 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
The Taliban is a separate issue, even assuming the Taliban government permitted OBL to reside in Afghanistan
For the record, OBL was known to be residing in Afghanistan at the time. The Taliban offered to extradite him to a third country for trial, but Bush didn't take the offer seriously, preferring to try and fail to fetch him ourselves.
Where it went from almost understandably stupid manhunt to completely off the rails was a couple of months later when it was obvious OBL was gone and yet we stayed and kept blowing shit up anyway. It was stupid to begin with, but the initial effort was something I could understand even if I didn't agree with it.
posted by wierdo at 7:36 AM on April 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
For the record, OBL was known to be residing in Afghanistan at the time. The Taliban offered to extradite him to a third country for trial, but Bush didn't take the offer seriously, preferring to try and fail to fetch him ourselves.
Where it went from almost understandably stupid manhunt to completely off the rails was a couple of months later when it was obvious OBL was gone and yet we stayed and kept blowing shit up anyway. It was stupid to begin with, but the initial effort was something I could understand even if I didn't agree with it.
posted by wierdo at 7:36 AM on April 17, 2021 [6 favorites]
I remember being in the Bangor airport about 2005, and it was just stuffed with servicepersons shipping out to be deployed overseas, either Iraq or Afghanistan. I was in my late 30's then and they looked so young to me. It made a big impression. Here are some of the actual people we are sending to war. Some of them are not coming back, some not in one piece. And we are asking them to kill and maim other people, invisible from this airport, but every bit as real and young. Do we know what the fuck we are doing? We'd better have a concept. Are we just doing this so conservative elites can feel good about being tough?
posted by thelonius at 8:25 AM on April 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 8:25 AM on April 17, 2021 [2 favorites]
If the Afghan resistance fighters had any sense of irony, they would label themselves “Wolverines” and make sure every American soldier knew that in this scenario, they were the invading “Communists”.
If I were an Afghan, I would paint “WOLVERINES” on every village gate and wall on the American patrol route.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:46 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
If I were an Afghan, I would paint “WOLVERINES” on every village gate and wall on the American patrol route.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:46 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
What’s still incredible to me is that Cheney and Rummy in particular were already wielding political power *during ‘Nam.* They saw how the forever war worked, how pointless and unpopular US involvement was, and basically said “do that again! Dolla dolla bill y’all!”
And so many of us knew that, saw it coming, and failed to prevent it.
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason?
No, it really isn’t nearly that simple. But neither is it false.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:20 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
And so many of us knew that, saw it coming, and failed to prevent it.
But are Obama and Biden also just tools of the war corporations? Is it that simple? Or are they doing it for some other reason?
No, it really isn’t nearly that simple. But neither is it false.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:20 AM on April 17, 2021 [3 favorites]
Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey Red Dawn is now 37 years old and I'll give you long odds most currently enlisted people in the military have literally never even heard of the movie, much less watched it. A few of the older officers and non-coms perhaps, but not the people actually doing the dying and killing.
posted by sotonohito at 9:28 AM on April 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sotonohito at 9:28 AM on April 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
They don’t have to have seen it. All they have to to is google the trailer.
Because once enough soldiers start having the “WTF is Wolverines?” conversation, some of their fellows are gonna have seen the movie and start explaining it as they sit in their vehicle.
According to the book Jarhead, once the Marines got notified they were going to war, first thing they did was send someone to the Blockbuster Video to rent a bunch of war movies so they could watch them like porn and get pumped up for action.
I could totally see Red Dawn as the kind of America! (FUCK YEAH!) movie to make it into that rotation.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:44 AM on April 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
Because once enough soldiers start having the “WTF is Wolverines?” conversation, some of their fellows are gonna have seen the movie and start explaining it as they sit in their vehicle.
According to the book Jarhead, once the Marines got notified they were going to war, first thing they did was send someone to the Blockbuster Video to rent a bunch of war movies so they could watch them like porn and get pumped up for action.
I could totally see Red Dawn as the kind of America! (FUCK YEAH!) movie to make it into that rotation.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:44 AM on April 17, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Punisher is almost 50, but it's been kept alive with movies and new book appearances and series over the years, and there was a Red Dawn remake like 10 years ago, so...I'm willing to believe they're both just kind of in-the-water.
posted by rhizome at 3:56 PM on April 17, 2021
posted by rhizome at 3:56 PM on April 17, 2021
The Marshall Plan was a massive peace and democracy plan.
I've always felt this would've been the best approach if we entered Afghanistan. For less money than we wasted in Afghanistan and Iraq we could've co-funded a safe, secure country with co-operation from our allies. Seems like the merits of a stable Afghanistan would've been as easy sell to our western European allies. But a Republican president, particularly one as historically and geopolitically ignorant as George W. Bush, couldn't lead an effort like that.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:42 PM on April 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
I've always felt this would've been the best approach if we entered Afghanistan. For less money than we wasted in Afghanistan and Iraq we could've co-funded a safe, secure country with co-operation from our allies. Seems like the merits of a stable Afghanistan would've been as easy sell to our western European allies. But a Republican president, particularly one as historically and geopolitically ignorant as George W. Bush, couldn't lead an effort like that.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:42 PM on April 18, 2021 [2 favorites]
The Costs of War
the United States spent $2.261 trillion and created a situation in which between 238,050 and 241,050 persons died, including over 71,000 civilian noncombatants.
There is a breakdown *Rounded to nearest billion.
I think that notation about “rounding to the nearest billion” says it all. A billion is a rounding error here.
Much of the money spent in Afghanistan was wasted, and disappeared into a fog of corruption.
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 AM on April 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
the United States spent $2.261 trillion and created a situation in which between 238,050 and 241,050 persons died, including over 71,000 civilian noncombatants.
There is a breakdown *Rounded to nearest billion.
I think that notation about “rounding to the nearest billion” says it all. A billion is a rounding error here.
Much of the money spent in Afghanistan was wasted, and disappeared into a fog of corruption.
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 AM on April 19, 2021 [4 favorites]
I can’t find the original article, but it was written at the end of Clinton’s presidency. Essentially it argued:
But we cannot afford, nor do our national interests compel us, to stay.
New Century.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:47 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
America’s 16+ year experiment in making the world a better place using our military has failed, and at a cost in blood and treasure we cannot afford or sustain. America should reconfigure its priorities as a “Great Power” rather than as a “Superpower”. We will defend our interests and allies, but we are not the world’s policeman, and we work in the context o international institutionsWill bad things happen when we leave? Yes.
But we cannot afford, nor do our national interests compel us, to stay.
New Century.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:47 PM on April 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I’m also reminded about a TED talk from geostrategist Thomas P.M. Barnett about “Splitting the U.S. military into two separate halves”.
Right now, we have the best Kill People And Break Things force on the planet. We could halve our military spending and still outspend China. We are overwhelming firepower.
And then we task that same force to do the Rebuild Society And Secure The Peace stage, for which they are verymuch not trained andoriented towards, and we universally fuck it up.
His suggestion: split the military into the Young, hard-charging KP&BT force to win wars, and the RSASTP force, which is much more 40 year old cop/social worker but who also has access to the US Marines as a fast-reaction force so people don’t get a wild hair up their ass and think they can fuck with our social workers.
Imagine if we had something like that going on over the last 20 years in Afghanistan.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:11 PM on April 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Right now, we have the best Kill People And Break Things force on the planet. We could halve our military spending and still outspend China. We are overwhelming firepower.
And then we task that same force to do the Rebuild Society And Secure The Peace stage, for which they are verymuch not trained andoriented towards, and we universally fuck it up.
His suggestion: split the military into the Young, hard-charging KP&BT force to win wars, and the RSASTP force, which is much more 40 year old cop/social worker but who also has access to the US Marines as a fast-reaction force so people don’t get a wild hair up their ass and think they can fuck with our social workers.
Imagine if we had something like that going on over the last 20 years in Afghanistan.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:11 PM on April 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, Germany and Japan look very good. And Italy is OK.
Specially with regards to Germany and Japan, in lesser degree Italy, the US was de facto occupiers from 1945-1990, so far longer than in Afghanistan, but with a whole huge democracy and welfare program to go with the occupation.
Bush jr. made it very clear that he was against the US doing "nation building" when he campaigned in 2000, and his administration stumbled into it stupidly and with no desire for learning from their mistakes through the whole 7-ish years after 9-11. By the time Obama was elected, the corruption and criminality in both Afghanistan and Iraq was so deeply ingrained that it probably was not solvable.
posted by mumimor at 2:14 PM on April 21, 2021
Specially with regards to Germany and Japan, in lesser degree Italy, the US was de facto occupiers from 1945-1990, so far longer than in Afghanistan, but with a whole huge democracy and welfare program to go with the occupation.
Bush jr. made it very clear that he was against the US doing "nation building" when he campaigned in 2000, and his administration stumbled into it stupidly and with no desire for learning from their mistakes through the whole 7-ish years after 9-11. By the time Obama was elected, the corruption and criminality in both Afghanistan and Iraq was so deeply ingrained that it probably was not solvable.
posted by mumimor at 2:14 PM on April 21, 2021
His suggestion: split the military into the Young, hard-charging KP&BT force to win wars, and the RSASTP force, which is much more 40 year old cop/social worker but who also has access to the US Marines as a fast-reaction force so people don’t get a wild hair up their ass and think they can fuck with our social workers.
Coincidentally this is a mirror image of the Defund the Police initiatives and theories, too: get the guns out of non-violent situations and have armed police as a special unit or department or whatever.
posted by rhizome at 2:33 PM on April 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Coincidentally this is a mirror image of the Defund the Police initiatives and theories, too: get the guns out of non-violent situations and have armed police as a special unit or department or whatever.
posted by rhizome at 2:33 PM on April 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
There is a profound difference between Germany and Italy vs Afghanistan.
NATO is a real thing that was designed and acted as a deterrent to the external threat of the Soviet Union. Whatever else it was, it had a legitimate role in staving off foreign invasion.
We are in Afghanistan 100% as occupiers, foreigners who have no tribal affiliation or loyalty on the ground, trying to enforce our will inside the country. We are not trying to defend it from some foreign invasion, we are trying to secure the country that does not want to be secured by us.
This is the lesson of Lawrence. In Italy and Germany we still share a context and cultural understanding that will never EVER exist in Afghanistan. We could stay there for 100 years and we will always be the outsider.
And as that scumbag Kissenger said “The guerilla wins if he does not lose. The conventional army loses if it does not win.” And Afghanistan is unwinnable.
There’s a saying Im told is of Afghan origin:
Everything else is just tallying the cost in blood and treasure till we leave.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:08 AM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
NATO is a real thing that was designed and acted as a deterrent to the external threat of the Soviet Union. Whatever else it was, it had a legitimate role in staving off foreign invasion.
We are in Afghanistan 100% as occupiers, foreigners who have no tribal affiliation or loyalty on the ground, trying to enforce our will inside the country. We are not trying to defend it from some foreign invasion, we are trying to secure the country that does not want to be secured by us.
This is the lesson of Lawrence. In Italy and Germany we still share a context and cultural understanding that will never EVER exist in Afghanistan. We could stay there for 100 years and we will always be the outsider.
And as that scumbag Kissenger said “The guerilla wins if he does not lose. The conventional army loses if it does not win.” And Afghanistan is unwinnable.
There’s a saying Im told is of Afghan origin:
I against my brother.We will forever be The Outsider.
My brother and I against our cousin.
My brother, my cousin, and I, against the outsider.
Everything else is just tallying the cost in blood and treasure till we leave.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:08 AM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
...as should all have been completely fucking obvious in 2001 to the knuckle dragging moron who decided to start the bombing and is now busily trying to rehabilitate his public image by getting his paintings on Kimmel in order to look not quite as utterly worthless as T****.
Fucking W, man. Mr Mission Accomplished.
posted by flabdablet at 8:00 AM on April 22, 2021
Fucking W, man. Mr Mission Accomplished.
posted by flabdablet at 8:00 AM on April 22, 2021
Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey, maybe you are right. But I always hesitate to orientalize peoples in other countries. Afghanistan was taken over by the Taliban after years of war with the Sovjet Union, where the US and Europe financed all sorts of bandits in order to lock the Sovjet Union down in endless war. There were several reasons there was some popular support for the Taliban, but important ones was that they weren't bandits and that they provided a level of social security that hadn't been seen in Afghanistan for decades. Not a high level, just more than nothing.
If NATO had been paired with organizations who actually know about building democracy and civil society, and fighting corruption, maybe there would have been some progress. And obviously, we should all have left at least a decade ago, unless invited.
Germany and Japan in 1945 were nowhere close to "Western values". Both nations committed atrocities far beyond anything the Taliban came up with, closer to what my generation saw in Rwanda. Italy is a bit more complicated. And the proces of accepting democratic values and human rights is not over in Germany at least (I know little about contemporary Japan). The media tend to overdramatize the new Nazis in Germany, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
posted by mumimor at 9:23 AM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
If NATO had been paired with organizations who actually know about building democracy and civil society, and fighting corruption, maybe there would have been some progress. And obviously, we should all have left at least a decade ago, unless invited.
Germany and Japan in 1945 were nowhere close to "Western values". Both nations committed atrocities far beyond anything the Taliban came up with, closer to what my generation saw in Rwanda. Italy is a bit more complicated. And the proces of accepting democratic values and human rights is not over in Germany at least (I know little about contemporary Japan). The media tend to overdramatize the new Nazis in Germany, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
posted by mumimor at 9:23 AM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
An alternative: Can Afghanistan's mineral wealth finance a transition to a carbon-neutral future?
Americans think of Afghanistan only as a war. But there are 30 million-plus people living there.
Lead the Leap initiative has lined up a number of prominent Afghans as advisors and secured the support of the Afghan Senate.
posted by adamvasco at 10:23 AM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Americans think of Afghanistan only as a war. But there are 30 million-plus people living there.
Lead the Leap initiative has lined up a number of prominent Afghans as advisors and secured the support of the Afghan Senate.
posted by adamvasco at 10:23 AM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don’t think it needs to be framed in terms of “orientalizing” the Afghans, or of “western values”.
In essence, the Afghans have a long history of saying and acting on the premise of Outsiders don’t get to come here bearing arms and giving orders.
I believe that if Iran were to invade Afghanistan, they could do so with every Dari and Pashto speaking soldier they had. They would be coming in as fellow Muslims (although Iran is mostly Shi’a and Afghanistan mostly Sunni). Iran probably has the highest chance of pulling it off the longest.
And if Iran overstayed their welcome and tried to dictate how things were gonna be, they would face an anti-occupation insurgency, because in the end they are an outside army of occupation.
And the Afghans seem to have a very long history of not putting up with “Outsiders”. And they draw that circle REAL tight and specific, values or no.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:30 PM on April 22, 2021
In essence, the Afghans have a long history of saying and acting on the premise of Outsiders don’t get to come here bearing arms and giving orders.
I believe that if Iran were to invade Afghanistan, they could do so with every Dari and Pashto speaking soldier they had. They would be coming in as fellow Muslims (although Iran is mostly Shi’a and Afghanistan mostly Sunni). Iran probably has the highest chance of pulling it off the longest.
And if Iran overstayed their welcome and tried to dictate how things were gonna be, they would face an anti-occupation insurgency, because in the end they are an outside army of occupation.
And the Afghans seem to have a very long history of not putting up with “Outsiders”. And they draw that circle REAL tight and specific, values or no.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 1:30 PM on April 22, 2021
We will forever be The Outsider.
And we know this. And we knew it going in. I had a military friend who was going over for his first time and had been sent to "Asia School." This was around 2004. He said there's always people who want to fight the US, and it's axiomatic that they will travel to wherever the US military decides to liberate or protect or whatever. The Iraq War could just as easily (and predictably) been waged in Algeria, if that's where we stepped out of the helicopters. Or Greece. Maybe we want to be a little further North, where it's not so hot all the time. Of course regional politics affect the choice of location and yada yada, and at any rate it's unrelated to fact that the US military is a battle magnet in large swaths of the globe. And we know this. Rinse and repeat in Afghanistan.
posted by rhizome at 2:26 PM on April 22, 2021
And we know this. And we knew it going in. I had a military friend who was going over for his first time and had been sent to "Asia School." This was around 2004. He said there's always people who want to fight the US, and it's axiomatic that they will travel to wherever the US military decides to liberate or protect or whatever. The Iraq War could just as easily (and predictably) been waged in Algeria, if that's where we stepped out of the helicopters. Or Greece. Maybe we want to be a little further North, where it's not so hot all the time. Of course regional politics affect the choice of location and yada yada, and at any rate it's unrelated to fact that the US military is a battle magnet in large swaths of the globe. And we know this. Rinse and repeat in Afghanistan.
posted by rhizome at 2:26 PM on April 22, 2021
We know that poppies are one of the few crops that grows really, really well in Afghanistan. We know that most of that opium ends up in the illegal pipeline, and that the Taliban benefit from that illegal trade. We know what medical painkillers are in desperate shortage in desperately poor countries.
I’ve seen it posited that what the rich countries should do is go in an officially buy up the opium and convert it into legit medicinals for poor countries.
Yes, a portion of that medical stuff will make it into the illegal pipeline headed for the rich countries. As it is now, the vast majority of it does so, and funds the Taliban at the same time.
Taking a large volume of that illegal opium off the streets while taking money of thepockets of the warlords in the hills would feel like a win to me.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 5:47 PM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
I’ve seen it posited that what the rich countries should do is go in an officially buy up the opium and convert it into legit medicinals for poor countries.
Yes, a portion of that medical stuff will make it into the illegal pipeline headed for the rich countries. As it is now, the vast majority of it does so, and funds the Taliban at the same time.
Taking a large volume of that illegal opium off the streets while taking money of thepockets of the warlords in the hills would feel like a win to me.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 5:47 PM on April 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Taliban Country is reporting from 2019. Najibullah Quraishi is an Afghan journalist who has been reporting from his war-torn home country for since the invasion and occupation began.
I’ve heard it expressed that the President of Afghanistan is essentially the Mayor of Kabul, and the Government of Afghanistan is essentially the Kabul City Council. Najibullah Quraishi shows us what 20 years of blood and treasure has bought us.
The images that define the “Fall of Saigon” for me are that final U.S. Helicopter on the roof of the embassy, and then American sailors pushing helicopters off the deck of the aircraft carrier to make room for all the fleeing refugees.
When the Soviets left Afghanistan, the pictures of show their last tanks rolling across the bridge with their flags flying.
I wonder what the image of the last American boots on the ground in Afghanistan will look like. There defintely will be a huge parade so that it feels like something that resembles what we think victory feels like.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:19 AM on April 24, 2021
I’ve heard it expressed that the President of Afghanistan is essentially the Mayor of Kabul, and the Government of Afghanistan is essentially the Kabul City Council. Najibullah Quraishi shows us what 20 years of blood and treasure has bought us.
The images that define the “Fall of Saigon” for me are that final U.S. Helicopter on the roof of the embassy, and then American sailors pushing helicopters off the deck of the aircraft carrier to make room for all the fleeing refugees.
When the Soviets left Afghanistan, the pictures of show their last tanks rolling across the bridge with their flags flying.
I wonder what the image of the last American boots on the ground in Afghanistan will look like. There defintely will be a huge parade so that it feels like something that resembles what we think victory feels like.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:19 AM on April 24, 2021
In the coming months, the Biden administration will need to determine what it will do with the tens of thousands of real Afghans who worked as translators or in similar roles supporting the US government in Afghanistan or risk having them killed for their service.
posted by adamvasco at 6:06 PM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 6:06 PM on April 25, 2021 [5 favorites]
Noam Chomsky and Vijay Prashad :
United States Withdraws From Afghanistan? Not Really.
No lessons have been learned from this history. The U.S. will “withdraw,” but will also leave behind its assets to checkmate China and Russia. These geopolitical considerations eclipse any concern for the Afghan people.
posted by adamvasco at 2:40 PM on May 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
United States Withdraws From Afghanistan? Not Really.
No lessons have been learned from this history. The U.S. will “withdraw,” but will also leave behind its assets to checkmate China and Russia. These geopolitical considerations eclipse any concern for the Afghan people.
posted by adamvasco at 2:40 PM on May 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
If the US government had the tiniest shred of decency, it'd have totally open immigration with a quick path to citizenship for anyone in all the various middle eastern nations it has been waging war in. Especially for people who served US interests and will almost certainly pay a high price for doing so once America leaves.
But the US government won't do that, it will do what it has always done for those people foolish enough to help America: it will abandon them to be murdered. It's exactly what America did in Vietnam.
posted by sotonohito at 7:12 PM on May 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
But the US government won't do that, it will do what it has always done for those people foolish enough to help America: it will abandon them to be murdered. It's exactly what America did in Vietnam.
posted by sotonohito at 7:12 PM on May 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
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"Dialectical, historical materialism dictates that all nations, regardless of economic development, will send their young to die in Afghanistan."
-- Karl Marx (probably).
posted by Groundhog Week at 7:00 AM on April 16, 2021 [19 favorites]