What If Everything We Know About Gymnastics Is Wrong?
May 13, 2021 7:43 AM Subscribe
Lizzie Feidelson of The New York Times Magazine reports on how, in light of the horrific abuses in gymnastics being revealed and shifts in the sport's focus, older gymnasts are returning and putting to question the idea that gymnasts peak in their teens - and the need for abusive, controlling coaches.
Andy Memmel is a joy.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:05 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:05 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is not a popular opinion but I feel like "WHY IS THIS STILL A THING?" I can't be convinced that the merits of this specific "sport" outweigh the risks. Why do we want to see little flexy women and girls do "endurance" things with their bodies? Why at all? Why not another type of thing? Is tradition enough of a reason to continue something so unneeded?
posted by Dressed to Kill at 8:15 AM on May 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 8:15 AM on May 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
If you want to watch some routines of older, currently competing gymnasts here you go:
Marta Pihan-Kulesza. 33. Polish National Champion for like ever. Vogue FX , Pink Panther FX.
Larisa Iordache. 29. Bars at recent Euros
Becky Downie 27 at 2019 Worlds Bar final
Queen Chuso. 45. Everything Chuso did at every Olympics she's been in
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:18 AM on May 13, 2021 [27 favorites]
Marta Pihan-Kulesza. 33. Polish National Champion for like ever. Vogue FX , Pink Panther FX.
Larisa Iordache. 29. Bars at recent Euros
Becky Downie 27 at 2019 Worlds Bar final
Queen Chuso. 45. Everything Chuso did at every Olympics she's been in
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:18 AM on May 13, 2021 [27 favorites]
While gymnasts do have to be “on the lean side of lean,”Haven't the performances of Simone Biles and Katelyn Ohashi basically destroyed this idea? Isn't it more about explosive power-to-weight ratio than it is about be-as-light-as-possible?
posted by clawsoon at 8:21 AM on May 13, 2021 [31 favorites]
Isn't it more about explosive power-to-weight ratio than it is about be-as-light-as-possible?
Yes, however international judging can be a little biased towards having 'good lines'
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:22 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
Yes, however international judging can be a little biased towards having 'good lines'
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:22 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is not a popular opinion but I feel like "WHY IS THIS STILL A THING?" I can't be convinced that the merits of this specific "sport" outweigh the risks. Why do we want to see little flexy women and girls do "endurance" things with their bodies? Why at all? Why not another type of thing? Is tradition enough of a reason to continue something so unneeded?
That's pretty much an argument against the idea of organized sport, because all sports - especially at the elite levels - carry significant risk. Beyond that a lot of the major problems with gymnastics are born from an abusive culture that is facing significant scrutiny and opposition - part of the "gymnasts peak in their teens" idea was created because it's easier to beat a teen into submission than a grown adult.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:24 AM on May 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
That's pretty much an argument against the idea of organized sport, because all sports - especially at the elite levels - carry significant risk. Beyond that a lot of the major problems with gymnastics are born from an abusive culture that is facing significant scrutiny and opposition - part of the "gymnasts peak in their teens" idea was created because it's easier to beat a teen into submission than a grown adult.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:24 AM on May 13, 2021 [20 favorites]
That's pretty much an argument against the idea of organized sport, because all sports - especially at the elite levels - carry significant risk.
EXACTLY! I also think the Olympics are bonkers! for WHAT?! (sorry, I really don't get it!)
posted by Dressed to Kill at 8:30 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
EXACTLY! I also think the Olympics are bonkers! for WHAT?! (sorry, I really don't get it!)
posted by Dressed to Kill at 8:30 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
EXACTLY! I also think the Olympics are bonkers! for WHAT?! (sorry, I really don't get it!)
Because for some athletes, pushing themselves to the pinnacle of human performance is the goal. There was an experiment done a while back, where researchers presented elite athletes with a scenario - they were offered an untraceable performance enhancing drug that would allow them to reach the peak of their sport, but in turn the drug would kill them from side effects 6 months after. Then they asked if the subject would take it.
More than a few said yes.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:39 AM on May 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
Because for some athletes, pushing themselves to the pinnacle of human performance is the goal. There was an experiment done a while back, where researchers presented elite athletes with a scenario - they were offered an untraceable performance enhancing drug that would allow them to reach the peak of their sport, but in turn the drug would kill them from side effects 6 months after. Then they asked if the subject would take it.
More than a few said yes.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:39 AM on May 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
That's pretty much an argument against the idea of organized sport, because all sports - especially at the elite levels - carry significant risk.
EXACTLY! I also think the Olympics are bonkers! for WHAT?! (sorry, I really don't get it!)
Because pushing your body to do difficult things well is an amazing experience.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:43 AM on May 13, 2021 [26 favorites]
EXACTLY! I also think the Olympics are bonkers! for WHAT?! (sorry, I really don't get it!)
Because pushing your body to do difficult things well is an amazing experience.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:43 AM on May 13, 2021 [26 favorites]
Chellsie is an inspiration. As someone who had dreams of Olympic glory as a child and quickly (very quickly) became aware that wasn't my path, but still loves watching the sport, I hope reforms come that can make it a safer place for athletes.
posted by europeandaughter at 8:48 AM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by europeandaughter at 8:48 AM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
When you consider the stress and trauma they go through, the wear and damage to their bodies, and the fact that very few of them make any income for their trouble, Olympians are just this side of being human sacrifices.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on May 13, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on May 13, 2021 [15 favorites]
Anyway, back to the actual gymnastics subject on hand now that we know who hates sports in the sports thread, FIG has had a hand in perpetuating this sort of culture especially since it was partially run by Nellie Kim of old-school Soviet culture. Gymnovosti translates interviews and you can get things they wouldn't say to English media, and here's an interview with her where she sort of dismisses that there are real problems.
FIG has also long been the holdup on leotard changes, too.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:52 AM on May 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
FIG has also long been the holdup on leotard changes, too.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 8:52 AM on May 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
Watching Kerri Strug land that vault in 1996 was, at the time, an incredibly moving experience. Re-watching it years later, it's terrifying.
posted by Caxton1476 at 8:52 AM on May 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by Caxton1476 at 8:52 AM on May 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
Hey MeFi, you know how sometimes you start heading off in a hurtful direction because of your own blinders and biases? Yeah, that's starting to happen in this thread.
Yes, there are predatory people and elements of sport. Those same kinds of people and elements are also present in classical music, academia, theatre, and countless other facets of life. It is possible to point out and discuss those problems without comparing them to human sacrifice or going on about how you don't appreciate sport or understand why people would want to explore the boundaries of athleticism.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 8:59 AM on May 13, 2021 [77 favorites]
Yes, there are predatory people and elements of sport. Those same kinds of people and elements are also present in classical music, academia, theatre, and countless other facets of life. It is possible to point out and discuss those problems without comparing them to human sacrifice or going on about how you don't appreciate sport or understand why people would want to explore the boundaries of athleticism.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 8:59 AM on May 13, 2021 [77 favorites]
the pinnacle of human performance is the goal
Assuming this was correct, what is the human performance of gymnastics? And why do we desire to see it?
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:00 AM on May 13, 2021
Assuming this was correct, what is the human performance of gymnastics? And why do we desire to see it?
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:00 AM on May 13, 2021
NoxAeternum: That's pretty much an argument against the idea of organized sport, because all sports - especially at the elite levels - carry significant risk.
I think this is a bad slippery-slope argument. :-) Learning how to use your body effectively and building up your skill, strength and flexibility from someone who knows what they're doing can decrease your risk of injury over your lifetime.
Learning it from someone who drives your body to destruction and throws you out when you turn 16 is abusive and increases your risk of injury.
The risk-to-benefit ratio changes as you move along the scale from good, supportive coaching to abusive, destructive coaching.
posted by clawsoon at 9:06 AM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think this is a bad slippery-slope argument. :-) Learning how to use your body effectively and building up your skill, strength and flexibility from someone who knows what they're doing can decrease your risk of injury over your lifetime.
Learning it from someone who drives your body to destruction and throws you out when you turn 16 is abusive and increases your risk of injury.
The risk-to-benefit ratio changes as you move along the scale from good, supportive coaching to abusive, destructive coaching.
posted by clawsoon at 9:06 AM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
And then, what about classical ballet? Like gymnastics, concentrated on young girls. Not a sport, but physically damaging and an enforced body type similar to gymnastics. A number of years ago, a girl, who was an excellent dancer, was rejected from the San Francisco Ballet school because she didn’t have the proper look. The mother threatened to sue as it was a human rights issue.
posted by njohnson23 at 9:07 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 9:07 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Can we not discuss both? Can't both be valuable?
Many victims of the abuses of sport talk about how they were originally drawn into the sport by its nature and how even today they still love the sport. Simone Biles has routinely pointed out that she won't let those who abused her take gymnastics away from her.
If you don't understand what would drive an athlete to push their body beyond what limits they had, that's fine - you don't have to share their values. The problem is when you start demanding that they justify those values to your satisfaction.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:13 AM on May 13, 2021 [28 favorites]
Many victims of the abuses of sport talk about how they were originally drawn into the sport by its nature and how even today they still love the sport. Simone Biles has routinely pointed out that she won't let those who abused her take gymnastics away from her.
If you don't understand what would drive an athlete to push their body beyond what limits they had, that's fine - you don't have to share their values. The problem is when you start demanding that they justify those values to your satisfaction.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:13 AM on May 13, 2021 [28 favorites]
Mod note: A couple comments deleted and a friendly nudge here - frequently in sports threads (or other topics, religion, etc) there are skeptics who are like "why sports, who cares, change my mind" and that's not a great way to go. It's insisting the conversation shift to explaining first principles to one determinedly skeptical person. It makes everyone focus on you, and it shuts down conversation about whatever the more specific topic is. If you want to have a thread about "why sports at all, sports suck", better to make another thread that can be about that or just find a topic that's of more interest to you.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:14 AM on May 13, 2021 [78 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:14 AM on May 13, 2021 [78 favorites]
It's possible to be appalled at the entire apparatus of Olympian sports and how it treats people and still not be anti-sports. If you're looking to understand my "human sacrifice" comment above, it's not contempt for sports (I have posted/commented about sports on the blue many times). It's contempt for the idea that we let amateur athletes devote their bodies and their lives to sport for our entertainment and, rather than see it as a weakness of a system that they are exploited, treated badly, and cast aside, we lionize the nobility of their struggle. That's how we normalize abusive coaches, among other things.
If you find the term "human sacrifice" hyperbolic, okay. Then let's just say they are people who volunteer to do something that can be traumatic and physically damaging to honor an abstract ideal, for our societal satisfaction.
Feels like a hedge to me, but you do you.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:15 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
If you find the term "human sacrifice" hyperbolic, okay. Then let's just say they are people who volunteer to do something that can be traumatic and physically damaging to honor an abstract ideal, for our societal satisfaction.
Feels like a hedge to me, but you do you.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:15 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
This is a fantastic article. I'm really curious what the parallel situation is in men's gymnastics -- is it less creepily fixated on younger athletes? I know there are differences in assumptions about the idea body shape etc.
posted by feckless at 9:34 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless at 9:34 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'm really curious what the parallel situation is in men's gymnastics -- is it less creepily fixated on younger athletes?
Men's gymnastics has always been more power focused, so you would see older athletes in those competitions. That said, predators in male sports are far from rare, as Ohio State and Michigan have recently illustrated.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:39 AM on May 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
Men's gymnastics has always been more power focused, so you would see older athletes in those competitions. That said, predators in male sports are far from rare, as Ohio State and Michigan have recently illustrated.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:39 AM on May 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
Because pushing your body to do difficult things well is an amazing experience.
I'm with hydropsyche on this. For me, it's inspiring to see women over 30 doing this. I started studying aerial acrobatics a couple of years ago (I'm in my late fifties), in part because I saw examples of people who weren't 14 doing it. I'm not a professional; in fact, I have very little talent at it, but I work hard, and even getting incrementally better at things I would have deemed impossible a few years ago is an indescribable high.
posted by pangolin party at 9:42 AM on May 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'm with hydropsyche on this. For me, it's inspiring to see women over 30 doing this. I started studying aerial acrobatics a couple of years ago (I'm in my late fifties), in part because I saw examples of people who weren't 14 doing it. I'm not a professional; in fact, I have very little talent at it, but I work hard, and even getting incrementally better at things I would have deemed impossible a few years ago is an indescribable high.
posted by pangolin party at 9:42 AM on May 13, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'm really curious what the parallel situation is in men's gymnastics -- is it less creepily fixated on younger athletes?
NCAA Mens is usually the feeder for elite, where Women's elite is usually a feeder for college gym. I think Danell Levya, John Orozco, and Yul Muldauer have talked about issues with the men's team covering racism and homophobia. One big difference over the past 2-3 decades is that the men train at the USOPC in Co Springs, instead of being hidden away at a dilapidated 'ranch' in the woods.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:48 AM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
NCAA Mens is usually the feeder for elite, where Women's elite is usually a feeder for college gym. I think Danell Levya, John Orozco, and Yul Muldauer have talked about issues with the men's team covering racism and homophobia. One big difference over the past 2-3 decades is that the men train at the USOPC in Co Springs, instead of being hidden away at a dilapidated 'ranch' in the woods.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 9:48 AM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Taking a thread about women's gymnastics and shifting the focus to men's gymnastics is a derail.
posted by medusa at 9:53 AM on May 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by medusa at 9:53 AM on May 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
fluttering hellfire: FIG has also long been the holdup on leotard changes, too.
The Hang Up And Listen sports podcast included a very good segment last week, about the unitard and the revolting sexualization of girls in gymnastics: https://slate.com/podcasts/hang-up-and-listen/2021/05/the-nfl-draft-baseball-rule-changes-and-gymnastics-attire-on-hang-up-and-listen
Guest Rebecca Schuman was very blunt in explaining that, in addition, most women would prefer to wear a unitard because of the damn wedgies.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:54 AM on May 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
The Hang Up And Listen sports podcast included a very good segment last week, about the unitard and the revolting sexualization of girls in gymnastics: https://slate.com/podcasts/hang-up-and-listen/2021/05/the-nfl-draft-baseball-rule-changes-and-gymnastics-attire-on-hang-up-and-listen
Guest Rebecca Schuman was very blunt in explaining that, in addition, most women would prefer to wear a unitard because of the damn wedgies.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:54 AM on May 13, 2021 [16 favorites]
I thought this article was very hopeful. I love the idea of people being able to have a career past the age of 16, without horrendous abuse, no less!
The thing that's always bothered me about the Karolyi abuse system (I'm just going to abbreviate it as that, since it seems to be their initiative as far as I've read) is that it worked and worked so well to get the medals. People would do and put up with all of this for the medals. I'd love to see if oh, anything less damaging would also work to get medals.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:58 AM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
The thing that's always bothered me about the Karolyi abuse system (I'm just going to abbreviate it as that, since it seems to be their initiative as far as I've read) is that it worked and worked so well to get the medals. People would do and put up with all of this for the medals. I'd love to see if oh, anything less damaging would also work to get medals.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:58 AM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Bringing together older gymnasts and changes to attire, I love what the German team did at this year's European championships. Among those pictured is Kim Bui (age 32) competing on beam.
posted by Salieri at 10:17 AM on May 13, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by Salieri at 10:17 AM on May 13, 2021 [24 favorites]
Taking a thread about women's gymnastics and shifting the focus to men's gymnastics is a derail.
True, but examining men's gymnastics in comparison to women's can be instructive. If men see peak performance at or after college age, then why should women be expected to peak that much earlier?
Hopefully the mention of men's sport can remain in service of the topic at hand, and not become a derail.
posted by explosion at 10:28 AM on May 13, 2021 [11 favorites]
True, but examining men's gymnastics in comparison to women's can be instructive. If men see peak performance at or after college age, then why should women be expected to peak that much earlier?
Hopefully the mention of men's sport can remain in service of the topic at hand, and not become a derail.
posted by explosion at 10:28 AM on May 13, 2021 [11 favorites]
There was an experiment done a while back, where researchers presented elite athletes with a scenario - they were offered an untraceable performance enhancing drug that would allow them to reach the peak of their sport, but in turn the drug would kill them from side effects 6 months after. Then they asked if the subject would take it
More than a few said yes.
This is almost certainly a myth. These answers to the 'Goldman dilemma', as it's known, have been widely reported (and misreported), but attempts to replicate them have failed. Whether the survey was ever even conducted is unclear, and the verifiable data from replication attempts indicate that only a tiny fraction of athletes say "yes", even in a hypothetical scenario. See the 2017 paper Dying to Win? The Goldman Dilemma in Legend and Fact.
posted by howfar at 10:57 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
More than a few said yes.
This is almost certainly a myth. These answers to the 'Goldman dilemma', as it's known, have been widely reported (and misreported), but attempts to replicate them have failed. Whether the survey was ever even conducted is unclear, and the verifiable data from replication attempts indicate that only a tiny fraction of athletes say "yes", even in a hypothetical scenario. See the 2017 paper Dying to Win? The Goldman Dilemma in Legend and Fact.
posted by howfar at 10:57 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
If you don't understand what would drive an athlete to push their body beyond what limits they had, that's fine - you don't have to share their values. The problem is when you start demanding that they justify those values to your satisfaction.
Or, on the flip, you're willing to accept something that is inherently abusive because you happen to like it.
posted by wordless reply at 11:00 AM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
Or, on the flip, you're willing to accept something that is inherently abusive because you happen to like it.
posted by wordless reply at 11:00 AM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
If I were someone who enjoyed gymnastics - which, to be very clear, I am not - I'd be very pissed at the people who thought I was some sort of dupe for participating in the field I want to achieve in.
posted by sagc at 11:16 AM on May 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:16 AM on May 13, 2021 [8 favorites]
By saying that all these women should stop participating in something that brings them joy? I don't know, I think you might be missing what the conversation is actually about.
posted by sagc at 11:24 AM on May 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:24 AM on May 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
Also, I'm pretty sure that question isn't meant to be interpreted as "The act of doing gymnastic activity: Good or Evil?" - it's about how gymnastics is now, and how it could be different.
posted by sagc at 11:26 AM on May 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:26 AM on May 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
"Everything we know" is hyperbole. It's shorthand for the assumptions about women peaking before adulthood, about litheness being more important than strength, and all that jazz.
Anytime someone says "everything we know," it's hyperbole, because "we" don't all have the same baseline understanding.
That said, it's about discarding the premise that women peak at 17 and that their training should aim to raise that peak above prospects of longevity. If we instead accept that a higher peak could be attained around, say, 25 (even if the individual would not yet have peaked at 17), then training would be conducted very differently.
Or, y'know, read the article.
posted by explosion at 11:29 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
Anytime someone says "everything we know," it's hyperbole, because "we" don't all have the same baseline understanding.
That said, it's about discarding the premise that women peak at 17 and that their training should aim to raise that peak above prospects of longevity. If we instead accept that a higher peak could be attained around, say, 25 (even if the individual would not yet have peaked at 17), then training would be conducted very differently.
Or, y'know, read the article.
posted by explosion at 11:29 AM on May 13, 2021 [10 favorites]
Can you please go be mad about something you think is dumb that men are doing instead of this thing that you think is dumb but that women are doing?
posted by phunniemee at 11:30 AM on May 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 11:30 AM on May 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
By women being interested in an athletic pursuit you obviously hate, yes.
posted by sagc at 11:32 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:32 AM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Jesus Tkachev Christ. This is about a sea change in women's gymnastics towards safety and longevity. What is baffling?
posted by fluttering hellfire at 11:32 AM on May 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 11:32 AM on May 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
Caveat - I do work in performance sport; my summer plans are completely dependant on whether the Games get cancelled or not.
Human beings as a species do things to do them higher, further, faster (or first). We visit new lands, add new knowledge, explore new problems and explore new vistas of performance. Some of us compete in sport, some make new art the world has never seen before, some conquer new empires or discover new answers that no one has ever known before.
Sport, as an outlet, tends to be measurable and requires time and opportunity investment that didn't go into buying a new yacht, eroding a border, flaunting international law. The difference now, versus much of human history, is that to be the best in the world at anything you need to best nearly 8 billion possible contestants.
No one is going to be the best in the world any anything without facing those challengers. You want to do anything truly new, original, innovative or (in this case) measurably better than it's ever been done before? That's a huge mountain to scale and someone will scale that mountain ,possible passing the bodies of those who tried before on their way. It really doesn't matter what field of endeavour it is - the field is so huge that being the best will require luck, grace, timing, opportunity and a whole helluva lotta work and sacrifice that most people will never understand. But that's true no matter what the area of interest is.
Where sport gets particularly caught up though is difficulties with over fitting recent winning experience when considering the next steps for the athletes to follow. When there isn't enough information someone is going to have to invoke a set of heuristics somewhere. Often it's many someones at multiple levels. When there's a success the heuristics used get positively reinforced, when they're not successful they do tend to get demoted. A little. Not enough. A success will always have an outsized signal because there's (relatively) so few of them.
Meanwhile there's entire fields of study trying to piece together how programs, coaches & athletes can be reliably better, do more, hurt less. We (as a species) frankly can't even describe our best accomplishments in sport let alone understand them or begin identifying multi cycle Key Performance Indicators with any level of rigour. We are learning a lot from sport though in the way of (given a large enough sample) how effective is this modality, how important is that intervention, what some of the common factors among known suboptimal strategies.
On an individual "here's an 8 year old can they set a world record in 10 years" level? Nope might as well predict the weather for a specific address a block or two over... for this week two years from now. At 3 in the afternoon.
So sport becomes highly subject to cults of personality. The "My Way or the Highway", the "Workouts are Closed to all Save Athletes and Coaches", the "You Can't Go Anywhere Without Me!" assholes. Got a kid in sport and hear any of these? Go find another activity. Same for "well that's the way we've always done it" and "that's how I was coached".
Turns out sport is interesting, offers diverse fields for study, attracts a lot of interest, and there's good opportunity to learn, grow and develop as a coach. Anyone who says otherwise is hiding something else that's a lot more disturbing.
You don't have to like sport (or a particular sport) any more than I have to like cheater or fashion or politics or any other field a person might excel at. There's 8 billion people out there - if you don't like it something else (probably millions of them) will like it for you. What we should do, as responsible adults, is push back on things that don't smell right. Something sounds creepy? Well it probably is. Why? What should we do about it? Important questions to ask regardless of how an issue came to one's attention or how an individual feels about the activity in general.
posted by mce at 11:33 AM on May 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
Human beings as a species do things to do them higher, further, faster (or first). We visit new lands, add new knowledge, explore new problems and explore new vistas of performance. Some of us compete in sport, some make new art the world has never seen before, some conquer new empires or discover new answers that no one has ever known before.
Sport, as an outlet, tends to be measurable and requires time and opportunity investment that didn't go into buying a new yacht, eroding a border, flaunting international law. The difference now, versus much of human history, is that to be the best in the world at anything you need to best nearly 8 billion possible contestants.
No one is going to be the best in the world any anything without facing those challengers. You want to do anything truly new, original, innovative or (in this case) measurably better than it's ever been done before? That's a huge mountain to scale and someone will scale that mountain ,possible passing the bodies of those who tried before on their way. It really doesn't matter what field of endeavour it is - the field is so huge that being the best will require luck, grace, timing, opportunity and a whole helluva lotta work and sacrifice that most people will never understand. But that's true no matter what the area of interest is.
Where sport gets particularly caught up though is difficulties with over fitting recent winning experience when considering the next steps for the athletes to follow. When there isn't enough information someone is going to have to invoke a set of heuristics somewhere. Often it's many someones at multiple levels. When there's a success the heuristics used get positively reinforced, when they're not successful they do tend to get demoted. A little. Not enough. A success will always have an outsized signal because there's (relatively) so few of them.
Meanwhile there's entire fields of study trying to piece together how programs, coaches & athletes can be reliably better, do more, hurt less. We (as a species) frankly can't even describe our best accomplishments in sport let alone understand them or begin identifying multi cycle Key Performance Indicators with any level of rigour. We are learning a lot from sport though in the way of (given a large enough sample) how effective is this modality, how important is that intervention, what some of the common factors among known suboptimal strategies.
On an individual "here's an 8 year old can they set a world record in 10 years" level? Nope might as well predict the weather for a specific address a block or two over... for this week two years from now. At 3 in the afternoon.
So sport becomes highly subject to cults of personality. The "My Way or the Highway", the "Workouts are Closed to all Save Athletes and Coaches", the "You Can't Go Anywhere Without Me!" assholes. Got a kid in sport and hear any of these? Go find another activity. Same for "well that's the way we've always done it" and "that's how I was coached".
Turns out sport is interesting, offers diverse fields for study, attracts a lot of interest, and there's good opportunity to learn, grow and develop as a coach. Anyone who says otherwise is hiding something else that's a lot more disturbing.
You don't have to like sport (or a particular sport) any more than I have to like cheater or fashion or politics or any other field a person might excel at. There's 8 billion people out there - if you don't like it something else (probably millions of them) will like it for you. What we should do, as responsible adults, is push back on things that don't smell right. Something sounds creepy? Well it probably is. Why? What should we do about it? Important questions to ask regardless of how an issue came to one's attention or how an individual feels about the activity in general.
posted by mce at 11:33 AM on May 13, 2021 [17 favorites]
The Rebecca Schuman Slate article on the German team's decision to go from legless leotard to full leg coverage unitard is great.
And yet: In the sport’s formidable Code of Points, there is a deduction (anywhere from 0.20 to 0.50, depending on the severity of the “attire” or “behavioural” violation) for a gymnast adjusting a garment any time between the salutes to the judges that signify the official start and end of her judged exercise. That is: There’s no inscribed deduction in gymnastics for getting the inevitable wedgie—but there is a deduction, sometimes hefty, for fixing your wedgie. This means that gymnasts not only do painful things like glue leos to their skin, but that they are, at times, essentially forced to complete routines with one or both buttocks hanging out. This is especially the case in college, where the combination of higher-cut garments and more mature bodies means that every single NCAA meet is a booty-fest we all see, but rarely talk about.posted by spamandkimchi at 11:34 AM on May 13, 2021 [29 favorites]
And as elite gymnastics continues to become more of a grown woman’s sport (the GOAT Simone Biles is 24; Canadian Ellie Black is 25; Britain’s Becky Downie is 29; Uzbek vaulting legend Oksana Chusovitina is 45), these grown women’s grown bodies do happen to be more wedgie-prone than frequently prepubescent compatriots—sometimes. But at the same time, and more importantly, the athletes, as adults, may have less patience for being told that their rear ends must stay exposed during routines.
Good grief. Gymnastics is fun for some people, including young girls. Competition is also fun for some people, including young girls. Young girls are not the people ruining the sport by being abusive assholes, so why can't we fix the sport?
At any rate, I used to teach gymnastics, and would go to multi-day training sessions. I remember one of the speakers saying that a study had been done (I don't remember by whom, this was decades ago) that showed that generally, female athletes had no fear of difficult tricks up until the time they reached puberty, while the opposite was true of male athletes. No idea how legit this study was but it's one of the reasons/excuses why the the focus was on pre-pubescent girls. Thankfully gymnatics seems to be moving on from this in some cases.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:39 AM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
At any rate, I used to teach gymnastics, and would go to multi-day training sessions. I remember one of the speakers saying that a study had been done (I don't remember by whom, this was decades ago) that showed that generally, female athletes had no fear of difficult tricks up until the time they reached puberty, while the opposite was true of male athletes. No idea how legit this study was but it's one of the reasons/excuses why the the focus was on pre-pubescent girls. Thankfully gymnatics seems to be moving on from this in some cases.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:39 AM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments deleted. Please avoid making the conversation about yourself and diverting the topic. Also, please check the Be sensitive to context section in the Community Guidelines
posted by loup (staff) at 11:41 AM on May 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:41 AM on May 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
Just the idea that the attire can change is so heartening. Watching the males compete in, basically, stirrup sweatpants and the females compete in ... wedgies for no real reason - and the same in ice skating - has been under my skin forever and is something I find not only distracting from the individual performance one is watching but also ... well, jeez, problematic as all hell.
posted by Occula at 12:20 PM on May 13, 2021 [24 favorites]
posted by Occula at 12:20 PM on May 13, 2021 [24 favorites]
Or, on the flip, you're willing to accept something that is inherently abusive because you happen to like it.
Literally the whole point of the article is that there's potentially nothing "inherent" at all about the abuse.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:25 PM on May 13, 2021 [22 favorites]
Literally the whole point of the article is that there's potentially nothing "inherent" at all about the abuse.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:25 PM on May 13, 2021 [22 favorites]
and the same in ice skating - has been under my skin forever and is something I find not only distracting from the individual performance one is watching but also ... well, jeez, problematic as all hell.
You are not kidding. The very idea that you can do amazing feats of strength, balance, and agility and then get points deducted because you sent a single second adjusting your uniform is insane. That's the kind of crap that needs to be fixed.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:29 PM on May 13, 2021 [15 favorites]
You are not kidding. The very idea that you can do amazing feats of strength, balance, and agility and then get points deducted because you sent a single second adjusting your uniform is insane. That's the kind of crap that needs to be fixed.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:29 PM on May 13, 2021 [15 favorites]
The full pantsuit option vs. leotard is intriguing to me.
I ice skated competitively as a kid, up until I was 13. I then quit until college, when I competed again.
In the early 90s, when I was a kid skater, all the girls (including the not-very-feminine me) wore the leotard w/skirt ice skating costume for every practice. Practice outfits wouldn't have any frills but were still skirt+leotard+tights. I'd been a swimmer before, so I didn't feel particularly perturbed even though I didn't really love the outfits.
But by the early 00's when I skated in college, more or less everyone wore pants (lycra pants for stretch+ease of movement) for practice. The costume only came out for competition (or for practice right beforehand). And oh boy, I felt so much more comfortable in pants. Pants are great! I wish I'd gotten to wear them as a kid skater, too, instead of constantly performing some standard of femininity that just wasn't me. I didn't expect to get joy out of lycra pants, but there it was.
I feel like I've seen a few competitors in the ice skating world wear something in that vein too-- but I'm not recalling names. Great to see it in the gymnastics world!
posted by nat at 12:48 PM on May 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
I ice skated competitively as a kid, up until I was 13. I then quit until college, when I competed again.
In the early 90s, when I was a kid skater, all the girls (including the not-very-feminine me) wore the leotard w/skirt ice skating costume for every practice. Practice outfits wouldn't have any frills but were still skirt+leotard+tights. I'd been a swimmer before, so I didn't feel particularly perturbed even though I didn't really love the outfits.
But by the early 00's when I skated in college, more or less everyone wore pants (lycra pants for stretch+ease of movement) for practice. The costume only came out for competition (or for practice right beforehand). And oh boy, I felt so much more comfortable in pants. Pants are great! I wish I'd gotten to wear them as a kid skater, too, instead of constantly performing some standard of femininity that just wasn't me. I didn't expect to get joy out of lycra pants, but there it was.
I feel like I've seen a few competitors in the ice skating world wear something in that vein too-- but I'm not recalling names. Great to see it in the gymnastics world!
posted by nat at 12:48 PM on May 13, 2021 [12 favorites]
I was a (not particularly great) gymnast as a kid. There were certainly problematic things about it but to this day I still frequently close my eyes and remember the absolutely POWER and JOY of flying through the air. That moment where you figure out exactly how to do the most minimal movement necessary to let inertia and gravity pull you through a series of tricks is -- well, crap, I don't have the words to describe it. THAT is why girls all over the world go to the gym. It is magic.
I have followed the developments in the sport over the past years and have been heartbroken by them. And I've been inspired and heartened to watch women gymnasts around the world speak up about the people and systems that have abused and terrorized them.
If you don't like sports, fine, but please understand that this story of Chellsie Memmel and other women gymnasts is about so much more than that. It's about a group of women who are reclaiming ownership of their bodies, their joy, and their efforts.
posted by mcduff at 1:17 PM on May 13, 2021 [45 favorites]
I have followed the developments in the sport over the past years and have been heartbroken by them. And I've been inspired and heartened to watch women gymnasts around the world speak up about the people and systems that have abused and terrorized them.
If you don't like sports, fine, but please understand that this story of Chellsie Memmel and other women gymnasts is about so much more than that. It's about a group of women who are reclaiming ownership of their bodies, their joy, and their efforts.
posted by mcduff at 1:17 PM on May 13, 2021 [45 favorites]
Continuing the skating side-rail, I'd love to see the shift there for girls/women too. The sport is hard as hell on knees and ankles especially, but men tend to hit two to four Olympic seasons for their senior career (which can start at 15 or older). Women's single skaters get the puberty switch in weight amount and distribution just like gymnasts, and some coaches deal with it the gymnast way - by training and starving them so they peak at 16 with a prepubescent body capable of triple-axel jumps, and then pushing them into retirement at 17 because they have a stable of pre-adolescents to take their place so it's not worth the investment to get them into jumping shape again at 19 or 20. Their senior career lasts a year. Mind you, this is one discipline where the US tends to be better at supporting older competitors, but the scoring system's focus on jumps over artistry promotes the Brand New Eteri Girl to beat them in international competitions, so you have people taking eternal silver medals while the gold changes every time...
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:20 PM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:20 PM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
I feel like I've seen a few competitors in the ice skating world wear something in that vein too-- but I'm not recalling names. Great to see it in the gymnastics world!
Maybe it's just generally better in Europe like the German team's pant leos, but I specifically remember seeing Mae Berenice Miete and Vanessa James at the Olympics in Korea both compete in pants. MORE SPORT PANTS PLEASE. What a fantastic change.
posted by phunniemee at 1:44 PM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Maybe it's just generally better in Europe like the German team's pant leos, but I specifically remember seeing Mae Berenice Miete and Vanessa James at the Olympics in Korea both compete in pants. MORE SPORT PANTS PLEASE. What a fantastic change.
posted by phunniemee at 1:44 PM on May 13, 2021 [3 favorites]
Why do we want to see little flexy women and girls do "endurance" things with their bodies? Why at all? Why not another type of thing? Is tradition enough of a reason to continue something so unneeded?
Because the women and girls who want to do gymnastics aren't doing it simply to be a spectacle for other people to watch -- most women and girls (and men and boys) who do gymnastics do it because it's what THEY like to do. And their bodies belong to them, and they can do endurance and flexibility things with their own bodies if they want to. They are not doing gymnastics "at" you.
Yes, things about how the training is done need to change, but the solution should be changing the training, not telling women and girls that they can't do things.
Actually, in general, if you are thinking "why do women and girls do this thing that I don't want to watch or I don't think other people should watch", maybe consider that the women and girls have agency and might have things that they like to do for reasons of their own, independent of what someone watching might think of it.
I saw the mod comment about not getting into "why sports, who cares, change my mind" -- my comment is not about changing anyone's mind about sports, it's about the views towards women and girls.
posted by yohko at 1:45 PM on May 13, 2021 [24 favorites]
Because the women and girls who want to do gymnastics aren't doing it simply to be a spectacle for other people to watch -- most women and girls (and men and boys) who do gymnastics do it because it's what THEY like to do. And their bodies belong to them, and they can do endurance and flexibility things with their own bodies if they want to. They are not doing gymnastics "at" you.
Yes, things about how the training is done need to change, but the solution should be changing the training, not telling women and girls that they can't do things.
Actually, in general, if you are thinking "why do women and girls do this thing that I don't want to watch or I don't think other people should watch", maybe consider that the women and girls have agency and might have things that they like to do for reasons of their own, independent of what someone watching might think of it.
I saw the mod comment about not getting into "why sports, who cares, change my mind" -- my comment is not about changing anyone's mind about sports, it's about the views towards women and girls.
posted by yohko at 1:45 PM on May 13, 2021 [24 favorites]
Goddamn.
Oksana Chusovitina is a vaulting champion and amazing at the uneven bars even though she doesn't even like the bars. There's a documentary from 5 years back when she was 40 years old and headed to her SEVENTH Olympics. For the record, I hate the IOC and I hate how the Olympics are used as justification for displacement and gentrification, but I love the vault as an event.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:46 PM on May 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
Oksana Chusovitina is a vaulting champion and amazing at the uneven bars even though she doesn't even like the bars. There's a documentary from 5 years back when she was 40 years old and headed to her SEVENTH Olympics. For the record, I hate the IOC and I hate how the Olympics are used as justification for displacement and gentrification, but I love the vault as an event.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:46 PM on May 13, 2021 [13 favorites]
I didn’t know about Chusovitina. Wow!
She looks like some foresters and farmers and field researchers I know, sensible hair and powerful arms and that microsecond grin and all.
posted by clew at 2:59 PM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
She looks like some foresters and farmers and field researchers I know, sensible hair and powerful arms and that microsecond grin and all.
posted by clew at 2:59 PM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Between 1936 and the 1980s, top gymnasts shrank, but more recently, as the sport has evolved to favor explosive strength, they have steadily increased in strength, age and size. “When you were trying to put space-age powerful skills into a body built for dance, there was a breaking point there,” Sands said of the 1960s and 1970s balletic aesthetic of the sport.
This raises further questions about what "a body built for dance" means, too, TBH. And it points up the fact that the bodily aesthetics of the athletes were what was being judged, not just their movement.
posted by pykrete jungle at 3:26 PM on May 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
This raises further questions about what "a body built for dance" means, too, TBH. And it points up the fact that the bodily aesthetics of the athletes were what was being judged, not just their movement.
posted by pykrete jungle at 3:26 PM on May 13, 2021 [4 favorites]
That's true to a significant extent, but most forms of dance, like any demanding physical activity, do have components that are, for mechanical reasons, more easily and reliably executed by people with certain proportions. Given the gruelling nature of ballet, in particular, it's probably reasonable to observe that some bodies are going to have an easier (read, "less appallingly difficult") time getting to the heights of execution. Of course, that fact in itself involves a set of aesthetic judgements shaped by patriarchy, misogyny and the male gaze, and in addition covers for a range of judgements that serve those forms of awfulness without any technical justification at all.
posted by howfar at 4:09 PM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by howfar at 4:09 PM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
The very idea that you can do amazing feats of strength, balance, and agility and then get points deducted because you sent a single second adjusting your uniform is insane.
Let me introduce you to the movie "Stick It."
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:47 PM on May 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
Let me introduce you to the movie "Stick It."
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:47 PM on May 13, 2021 [9 favorites]
It's a little insider-baseball, but the International Gymnastics Federation has just released the new Code of Points for the quad ending in 2024. Though, because of Covid, it will only be in effect for three years. The IGA does a new CoP for every quad, a quad being the four years from the end of one Olympics to the end of the next.
This link is to The Balance Beam Situation's overview of the new CoP.
posted by Orlop at 5:12 PM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
This link is to The Balance Beam Situation's overview of the new CoP.
posted by Orlop at 5:12 PM on May 13, 2021 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Please don't use the term "midget" perjoratively.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 5:15 PM on May 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 5:15 PM on May 13, 2021 [7 favorites]
There is an argument to be made with the current CoP which encourages skill chasing, then everyone does the skill, can complete it in a routine, but dear god the form issues.
Like, the Nabieva is an E, but if you're going to flop over the bar with separated legs and flat feet, no thanks. It's been downgraded to a D skill.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:44 PM on May 13, 2021
Like, the Nabieva is an E, but if you're going to flop over the bar with separated legs and flat feet, no thanks. It's been downgraded to a D skill.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:44 PM on May 13, 2021
BTW legit form issues <> body shaming. Ring jumps, man.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:47 PM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 5:47 PM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'd be curious for feedback from people who know the sport better, but I've thought for a while that fairly arbitrary decisions about which events were held and how they were judged made women's gymnastics a situation that gave a big advantage to smaller and younger athletes. Male gymnastics doesn't seem nearly as extreme here.
posted by mark k at 7:42 PM on May 13, 2021
posted by mark k at 7:42 PM on May 13, 2021
Let me introduce you to the movie "Stick It."
I've been trying to figure out how to fit a Gym-nice-tics joke into this thread the whole time :-)
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:58 PM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been trying to figure out how to fit a Gym-nice-tics joke into this thread the whole time :-)
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 7:58 PM on May 13, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been trying to figure out how to fit a Gym-nice-tics joke into this thread the whole time :-)
The Bronze is a solid gymnastics movie too, but it's on the comedy/gross out side so if that's not your thing, don't watch it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:18 AM on May 14, 2021
The Bronze is a solid gymnastics movie too, but it's on the comedy/gross out side so if that's not your thing, don't watch it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:18 AM on May 14, 2021
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It would be great if professional gymnastics could be an adult sport and we could stop with all the unexamined creepiness, but of course it's not nearly as sexy if the athlete is a grown woman who can make her own decisions and relate to her coach with some kind of equality.
That said, it was neat to read about Memmel's interactions with her coach and her perspective on the new work she's doing.
posted by Frowner at 7:54 AM on May 13, 2021 [29 favorites]