three values: Open, Fair and Inclusive
September 6, 2021 11:28 AM Subscribe
The Diapers.com Guy Wants to Build a Utopian Megalopolis. The City of Telosa intends to be a brand new city, built from scratch in a yet-undetermined site of eventually 150,000 acres in the USA, probably somewhere in the southwest region. Telosa aims to be the most open, most fair, most inclusive, and most sustainable city in the world.
Brainchild of diapers.com and jet.com founder and former Walmart executive Mark Lore (pronounced LorEE), the project is being designed by Danish architect Bjarke Ingels and his firm Bjarke Ingels Group, a.k.a BIG (who, as an aside, have a pretty interesting website design). One of the core ideas is acquire a large plot of land and then donate the plot to a community endowment, with the hopes of using the money made through the increasing land value to improve the city's services and guarantee equitable citizen access to the necessities of quality life such as healthcare and education. Other conceptual details include minimizing environmental impact by banning fossil-fuel vehicles, wide streets with generous space set aside for pedestrian and cycle traffic, ample greenspaces to ensure sufficient groundwater permeability, and a design goal of 15-minute travel loops between home, work, school, and shopping.
City of Telosa FAQ disputes the charge of utopianism:
Plans for $400-billion new city in the American desert unveiled [CNN.com]
Meet Telosa, an Entirely Sustainable City That Could Soon House Millions of People [RobbReport.com]
A Former Walmart Executive Wants to Build 'the Most Sustainable City in the World [InterestingEngineering.com]
Brainchild of diapers.com and jet.com founder and former Walmart executive Mark Lore (pronounced LorEE), the project is being designed by Danish architect Bjarke Ingels and his firm Bjarke Ingels Group, a.k.a BIG (who, as an aside, have a pretty interesting website design). One of the core ideas is acquire a large plot of land and then donate the plot to a community endowment, with the hopes of using the money made through the increasing land value to improve the city's services and guarantee equitable citizen access to the necessities of quality life such as healthcare and education. Other conceptual details include minimizing environmental impact by banning fossil-fuel vehicles, wide streets with generous space set aside for pedestrian and cycle traffic, ample greenspaces to ensure sufficient groundwater permeability, and a design goal of 15-minute travel loops between home, work, school, and shopping.
City of Telosa FAQ disputes the charge of utopianism:
"[...] [W]e are absolutely not attempting to create a utopia. Utopian projects are focused on creating a perfect, idealistic state — we are not. We are firmly grounded in reality and what is possible. We are focused on the best, most sustainable solutions for infrastructure, urban design, economic vibrancy and city services, but we fully recognize that no solution is perfect and all human systems have flaws. Therefore, we are committed to new ideas, finding the best way to solve difficult problems and constant improvement.Other News pieces:
Plans for $400-billion new city in the American desert unveiled [CNN.com]
Meet Telosa, an Entirely Sustainable City That Could Soon House Millions of People [RobbReport.com]
A Former Walmart Executive Wants to Build 'the Most Sustainable City in the World [InterestingEngineering.com]
I was just coming here to say the same thing. I just don’t see how the hell he can get the water rights.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:42 AM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:42 AM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't mean to carry water (ha ha ha) for this moonshot project but they kinda handwave the water thing in the "The How" section of their main page:
posted by glonous keming at 11:43 AM on September 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
by utilizing capture and storage systems as well as blue and green infrastructure into the buildings and public realm [...] Water will be distributed efficiently through smart metering and innovative leak detection approaches. The city will capture and recycle water for multiple uses, minimizing the demand on the regional, natural water sources.So, like stillsuits and a lot of plastic I guess. 🤷♀️
posted by glonous keming at 11:43 AM on September 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
Their FAQ says they're including the "Appalachian Region" as a setting so they have water there. I assume their southwest strategy is "give us water rights if you want a bunch of tech workers here instead of Appalachia" or something.
posted by zippy at 11:45 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by zippy at 11:45 AM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
From the CNN link:
Although planners are still scouting for locations, possible targets include Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Texas and the Appalachian region, according to the project's official website.
As zippy just noted, one of those has plenty of water, at least.
I've always been kind of fond of the utopian cities-from-scratch, but I don't think any of them have ever come close to meeting their original vision.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:50 AM on September 6, 2021
Although planners are still scouting for locations, possible targets include Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Texas and the Appalachian region, according to the project's official website.
As zippy just noted, one of those has plenty of water, at least.
I've always been kind of fond of the utopian cities-from-scratch, but I don't think any of them have ever come close to meeting their original vision.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:50 AM on September 6, 2021
Yeah, the FAQ does point out there is a question about source of water and a high-level hand-wavy discussions of a theoretical solution to that. But they ain’t done the real homework won’t be able to until they have a likely candidate site identified.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:51 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:51 AM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm kinda torn 2 ways. The first way is that I very badly want to make a snarky BioShock reference, but I'll spare you. The point being that this seems deeply implausible, and deranged industrialist billionaires building planned communities have yet to produce a place I personally would want to live.
The other hand is that I kind of love techno-utopianism. I've had a lot of hope for many of the aspirational technologies that they're discussing putting into effect here, and it pushes a lot of hopeful buttons to think they might actually implement some or all of them in a way that proves their practical utility. At the same time, I've cynically learned that having my aspirational buttons pushed often means somebody's trying to sell me something.
There's something really rousing about the idea that you can set aside history, all its messy entanglements and compromises and forces of habit and just build something wholly NEW and RIGHT from scratch, using the best of history's lessons and avoiding the worst of its mistakes. It doesn't usually work, but believing that it can seems important somehow.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 11:55 AM on September 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
The other hand is that I kind of love techno-utopianism. I've had a lot of hope for many of the aspirational technologies that they're discussing putting into effect here, and it pushes a lot of hopeful buttons to think they might actually implement some or all of them in a way that proves their practical utility. At the same time, I've cynically learned that having my aspirational buttons pushed often means somebody's trying to sell me something.
There's something really rousing about the idea that you can set aside history, all its messy entanglements and compromises and forces of habit and just build something wholly NEW and RIGHT from scratch, using the best of history's lessons and avoiding the worst of its mistakes. It doesn't usually work, but believing that it can seems important somehow.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 11:55 AM on September 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Meanwhile, while not 150K acres, there are huge tracts of land that has been given back to the prairie in Detroit city limits, and there are similar stretches of brownfields in other Rust Belt cities. And there’s infrastructure in place, just waiting to be used.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:57 AM on September 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:57 AM on September 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
It's never gonna happen, but at least it's not NEOM.
posted by aramaic at 12:00 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by aramaic at 12:00 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm in, unless they pick someplace hot. Also, they need to outlaw the scooter children or at least exile them to a place outside the city limits.
posted by betweenthebars at 12:02 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 12:02 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
So interestingly enough, the billionaire in question is not a Randian, but follows a most unexpected philosopher instead:
Lore sat facing out onto one balcony whose main feature was a life-size bronze statue of Benjamin Franklin. Wearing an all-beige outfit that matched, with unsettling precision, his beige couch, Lore explained how everything changed for him several years ago when he read Progress and Poverty, the 1879 manifesto by the economist and journalist Henry George. The book’s core argument is that private land ownership is to blame for rising inequality. Land in unoccupied areas is often worthless, George wrote, but gains value when people move nearby. It’s society that’s creating this wealth, but the benefits accrue only to whoever happened to own the land in the first place, giving them the ability to get rich without providing anything worthwhile.posted by Apocryphon at 12:02 PM on September 6, 2021 [18 favorites]
George argued that heavily taxing the value of land would increase both economic efficiency and social justice. His book was a 19th century blockbuster and has maintained a steady fan base ever since. His adherents argue that a land value tax could enable the elimination of most other taxes, including traditional property taxes, which assess improvements on the land in addition to the land itself. This idea has never been put into practice on a large scale, but it’s gone through something of a resurgence in the past decade, gaining praise from economists such as Joseph Stiglitz and inspiring arguments that similar thinking should be applied to other large pools of capital.
The idea of a philosophy that the Atlantic magazine referred to in 1913 as “Government Without Taxation” has obvious appeal to Lore, who’s on the hook for about $270,000 annually for New York City taxes on his apartment alone. He isn’t shy about expressing his skepticism that the government will spend it well, suggesting that taxpayers should be empowered to vote on which specific government projects their taxes are applied to, so the proposals have to “fight one another” to move forward.
Lore is particularly attracted to the strain of Georgism that involves creating a trust that holds the land in a community and uses the income it generates to fund social services. From that idea, he’s come up with the modest proposal to start a private foundation, buy 200,000 acres or so of land, probably somewhere in the American West, and build a 5 million-person city from the ground up—a Georgist utopia that will serve as a demonstration project for a new, fairer phase of capitalism.
In case the main Bloomberg link starts acting up here's an archive.org link (I think. Archive.org is saying I'm a bot right now and won't let me check it for sure).
posted by glonous keming at 12:02 PM on September 6, 2021
posted by glonous keming at 12:02 PM on September 6, 2021
Okay he’s not wrong per se:
posted by migurski at 12:04 PM on September 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
He isn’t shy about expressing his skepticism that the government will spend [taxes] well, suggesting that taxpayers should be empowered to vote on which specific government projects their taxes are applied to, so the proposals have to “fight one another” to move forward.…he’s just some dude re-arriving at social democracy from first principles where he’s personally the hero of the story and accidentally further enriching Noted Douchebag Bjarke “big.dk” Ingels along the way.
Lore is particularly attracted to the strain of Georgism that involves creating a trust that holds the land in a community and uses the income it generates to fund social services.
posted by migurski at 12:04 PM on September 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
So then...another conference and arts center, ala Arcosanti?
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 12:06 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 12:06 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
I love watching the wealthy flail around with increasingly outlandish proposals in panicked attempts to avoid the guillotine. It means we're winning.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:07 PM on September 6, 2021 [30 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:07 PM on September 6, 2021 [30 favorites]
I’d guess they want land not in an existing city (eg Detroit) because overriding existing city tax structures to get the Georgist system they depend on would be hard, undrmocratic, etc.
I’ve been in old planned communities that I thought turned out well. I think they had all been self-governing like any other polity quite early, maybe that’s the trick. But given how annoyed most of us are by the knock-on effects of car zoning, redlining, etc., a city that doesn’t have those built in sounds interesting!
I vote for a West Virginia ex-mountaintop, me. Water, bedrock, and a theory.
posted by clew at 12:09 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I’ve been in old planned communities that I thought turned out well. I think they had all been self-governing like any other polity quite early, maybe that’s the trick. But given how annoyed most of us are by the knock-on effects of car zoning, redlining, etc., a city that doesn’t have those built in sounds interesting!
I vote for a West Virginia ex-mountaintop, me. Water, bedrock, and a theory.
posted by clew at 12:09 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Predictably, the BIG proposal images are all parametric urbanism, arcologies, and personal rapid transit sited in a mysterious desert locale far from water.
posted by migurski at 12:10 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by migurski at 12:10 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Land Value Tax concept and Georgism is one particular ideology that has had a niche revival online in recent years, having completely disappearing from the scene after the first few decades of the 20th century despite being more relevant than ever in today's housing market. Getting one's obscure ideology of choice popularized by a tech billionaire who just happened to hear of it is going to be a very monkey's paw situation.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:12 PM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 12:12 PM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
The water thing is an opportunity if done right. Arizona does not assign water rights in the way that states like Utah or Colorado do. The question that determines if you get the rezoning is if you can show a 100 year assured water supply (which is definitely fudged a lot as needed, but some developments are starting to get turned down.) Some areas of the state get 5 inches of rain. Some get 15 or more. Choosing where you site the city is a big deal. If you go somewhere with more rainfall, then rainwater harvesting is viable for a good chunk of the water needed. Then you need to have wastewater recycling, which is becoming closer to being a real option in places. Xeriscaping needs to be the landscape requirement. There is no reason for anyone out here to have a lawn. In Tucson, the per capita water use per day is 76 gallons and still dropping. 150k people x 80 gallons per day is 12 million gallons per day. At that rate, rainwater harvesting could provide a quarter to a third of the water by itself, depending on acreage and rainfall. Recycling multiplies that.
Perhaps it’s pie in the sky thinking. But we are in desperate need of innovation in water usage, and such a city would be a huge opportunity. (Also, the rest of the west needs to get with the water use reduction program. Utah’s water use per capita is over twice what Tucson’s is, and that is just a statewide average. Some areas of UT use 200-300 gallons per person per day or more.)
posted by azpenguin at 12:26 PM on September 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Perhaps it’s pie in the sky thinking. But we are in desperate need of innovation in water usage, and such a city would be a huge opportunity. (Also, the rest of the west needs to get with the water use reduction program. Utah’s water use per capita is over twice what Tucson’s is, and that is just a statewide average. Some areas of UT use 200-300 gallons per person per day or more.)
posted by azpenguin at 12:26 PM on September 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Okay, snark first:
The wealth-sharing that would come from the foundation, Lore says, mimics the way employees at startups are paid partially in stock.
Yep, that's a famously equitable system.
Like others in this thread, while I enjoy the aesthetic of utopianism, this stuff is entirely rooted in an inability or unwillingness to understand people unlike oneself. It's like he thinks he's going to create this wonderland for innovators and creators and the countryside will spontaneously generate a complement of cheerful elves with no greater ambition than to brew his Stumptown or whatever.
posted by phooky at 1:00 PM on September 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
The wealth-sharing that would come from the foundation, Lore says, mimics the way employees at startups are paid partially in stock.
Yep, that's a famously equitable system.
Like others in this thread, while I enjoy the aesthetic of utopianism, this stuff is entirely rooted in an inability or unwillingness to understand people unlike oneself. It's like he thinks he's going to create this wonderland for innovators and creators and the countryside will spontaneously generate a complement of cheerful elves with no greater ambition than to brew his Stumptown or whatever.
posted by phooky at 1:00 PM on September 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
most inclusive
tl;dr: You will be shocked to hear that the rich white dudes with retractable-walled penthouses like the idea of inclusion in the abstract but don't have anything by way of a plan to make it a reality.
Telosa sounds like the Tesla humanoid robot of urban design: big on renderings, short on results.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
tl;dr: You will be shocked to hear that the rich white dudes with retractable-walled penthouses like the idea of inclusion in the abstract but don't have anything by way of a plan to make it a reality.
Telosa sounds like the Tesla humanoid robot of urban design: big on renderings, short on results.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
This sounds frightful...
posted by Czjewel at 1:18 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Czjewel at 1:18 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Frack. Paolo Soleri - Wikipedia. I loved his arcology designs.
posted by zengargoyle at 1:21 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by zengargoyle at 1:21 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Great care will need to be taken if this project is to avoid devolving into Hell's own HOA.
posted by flabdablet at 1:28 PM on September 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:28 PM on September 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
So a bit like Townsend, Ontario, then? It was supposed have a population of over 100000 by 2000. Current population? Around 1500. It's got some pretty big roads, though.
posted by scruss at 1:29 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by scruss at 1:29 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
The main risk with Georgism, as I see it, is always going to be runaway gentrification. People whose income doesn't grow at a rate commensurate with that of the unimproved value of the property they own quickly become unable to keep up with their land taxes, which means they're forced to sell out to people with higher incomes, which jacks up property values for their neighbours, which increases taxes based on unimproved land value, which puts even more pressure on those at the lower end of the income scale.
It will be interesting to see what measures, if any, the Telosa community endowment puts in place to mitigate this structural positive feedback while still retaining an ability to extract the value it needs to fund its assorted social programs.
posted by flabdablet at 1:39 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
It will be interesting to see what measures, if any, the Telosa community endowment puts in place to mitigate this structural positive feedback while still retaining an ability to extract the value it needs to fund its assorted social programs.
posted by flabdablet at 1:39 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Here is their official line on the gentrification issue, from the FAQ:
"What is Equitism?
An economic system in which citizens have a stake in the city’s land – as the city does better, the residents do better.
Equitism in Telosa, starts with land. Initially, all the land will be donated to a community endowment which will use the increasing land values to fund enhanced public services – the building blocks of prosperity: higher quality education, greater access to home ownership, improved health and wellness, more innovative business opportunities and expanded jobs and retraining. This will provide wider access to opportunity and a greater shared prosperity for all citizens. Equitism is inclusive growth."
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 1:49 PM on September 6, 2021
"What is Equitism?
An economic system in which citizens have a stake in the city’s land – as the city does better, the residents do better.
Equitism in Telosa, starts with land. Initially, all the land will be donated to a community endowment which will use the increasing land values to fund enhanced public services – the building blocks of prosperity: higher quality education, greater access to home ownership, improved health and wellness, more innovative business opportunities and expanded jobs and retraining. This will provide wider access to opportunity and a greater shared prosperity for all citizens. Equitism is inclusive growth."
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 1:49 PM on September 6, 2021
Aside from the water issues in the Southwest, if you're picking out land for the most sustainable city in the world, why would you have places that require huge amounts of energy to lower indoor temperatures to livable for so much of the year on your shortlist?
Is he using the Nigerian scam method of insulting the intelligence of his marks, so that they self-select for gullibility?
posted by gurple at 1:55 PM on September 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
Is he using the Nigerian scam method of insulting the intelligence of his marks, so that they self-select for gullibility?
posted by gurple at 1:55 PM on September 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
If fossil fuel vehicles are banned, how will people get there?
Seriously though, this could be a beautiful ruin after it fails
posted by rikschell at 2:02 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Seriously though, this could be a beautiful ruin after it fails
posted by rikschell at 2:02 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
He understands that people who know more than him about urban development have plenty of convincing reasons why he’ll fail. Expertise leads to caution—it’s the same reason why he’d never start another e-commerce business.
“You get jaded when you know too much,” Lore says. “You don’t have that clean slate, thinking about it in that fresh way ..."
He seems to be making this decision on the same principle I made decisions as a teenager -- that if so many people are against it, that must mean it's something amazing.
[T]the two settled into a debate about improving package delivery in a city built from scratch ...
It's Dahir Insaat's time to shine! Seriously, I've always wondered who that design was for -- who any of their city designs were for -- and now I guess I know.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:21 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
“You get jaded when you know too much,” Lore says. “You don’t have that clean slate, thinking about it in that fresh way ..."
He seems to be making this decision on the same principle I made decisions as a teenager -- that if so many people are against it, that must mean it's something amazing.
[T]the two settled into a debate about improving package delivery in a city built from scratch ...
It's Dahir Insaat's time to shine! Seriously, I've always wondered who that design was for -- who any of their city designs were for -- and now I guess I know.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:21 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Like, I guess they could buy a bunch of land in PA, OH, or WV for this?
Might even be as cheap on paper as the SW if they include “terrace cities” in their pile of magic beans here so that they can build up both sides of a valley.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:22 PM on September 6, 2021
Might even be as cheap on paper as the SW if they include “terrace cities” in their pile of magic beans here so that they can build up both sides of a valley.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:22 PM on September 6, 2021
I’m glad at least one hypercapitalist plutocrat shares my daydreams
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:40 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:40 PM on September 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Dahir Insaat video is hillarigreat. Big Looking Backward energy - Bellamy expected pneumatic tubes iirc - with a touch of String of Pearls Carfree Cities design. Does Lyon refer to Carfree in its traffic-reduction efforts, or was that Carfree’s imagination?
posted by clew at 3:16 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by clew at 3:16 PM on September 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Interesting that the related story that Bloomberg showed is this one about a suburb of Pittsburgh talking about getting the city to annex it.
posted by jimw at 3:24 PM on September 6, 2021
posted by jimw at 3:24 PM on September 6, 2021
This guy is talking about eventually building up to a density equivalent to Singapore's without any mention of public transit. They want to have no internal combustion engine vehicles there, that's cool. But that means lots and lots of EVs. So where is everyone going to park? With Singapore or Manhattan level density, there will not be enough parking for all.
posted by Hactar at 3:28 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 3:28 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
At that rate, rainwater harvesting could provide a quarter to a third of the water by itself, depending on acreage and rainfall. Recycling multiplies that.
If I was a downstream (for surface water) or down-gradient (for groundwater) water user that relied on the rain falling on those 150k acres for my water needs, I'd have a good case to point to that rainwater catchment system as an infringement. I'm not saying they can't get it built, but there are a lot of details that would have to be figured out beyond the pretty renderings that they have now.
And, if they were genuinely interesting in sustainability, they would be pursuing a reuse approach rather than looking for sites to start from scratch.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:28 PM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
If I was a downstream (for surface water) or down-gradient (for groundwater) water user that relied on the rain falling on those 150k acres for my water needs, I'd have a good case to point to that rainwater catchment system as an infringement. I'm not saying they can't get it built, but there are a lot of details that would have to be figured out beyond the pretty renderings that they have now.
And, if they were genuinely interesting in sustainability, they would be pursuing a reuse approach rather than looking for sites to start from scratch.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:28 PM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
California City seems to be another bit of prior art here, although the plan seemed to be more real estate scam than actual development.
posted by jimw at 3:32 PM on September 6, 2021
posted by jimw at 3:32 PM on September 6, 2021
MetaFilter: this could be a beautiful ruin after it fails
posted by lorddimwit at 4:40 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by lorddimwit at 4:40 PM on September 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Could there be one fucking billionaire out there who wants to donate their billions to voting rights?
posted by Anonymous at 4:47 PM on September 6, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 4:47 PM on September 6, 2021
If only they used the money to help fix actual cities' problems instead of building a giant metaphorical phallus in some random desert.
Further proof of the need to confiscate billionaires' assets.
posted by signal at 4:52 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Further proof of the need to confiscate billionaires' assets.
posted by signal at 4:52 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
If fossil fuel vehicles are banned, how will people get there?
Hyperloop!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:01 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Hyperloop!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 5:01 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Telosa sounds like the Tesla humanoid robot of urban design:
If it can fold up into a giant robot to go to war with other cities, I may be sold on it!
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:42 PM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
If it can fold up into a giant robot to go to war with other cities, I may be sold on it!
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:42 PM on September 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Watersheds are important! People who are thinking about them in this thread are probably likely to enjoy this map which shows some progress state boundaries based on, mostly, watersheds. It's from Atlaspro, who has an amazing YouTube channel. This is the video where the reasoning is discussed.
posted by Acari at 6:46 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by Acari at 6:46 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
all the land will be donated to a community endowment which will use the increasing land values to fund enhanced public services
My point exactly. Increasing land values don't make money ooze out of the ground; using increasing land values as a basis for public service funding means that funds have to be collected from landowners in some form, and as each landowner's assessed value increases, so do the amounts extracted from them. So unless landowners' income is growing faster than their land value is, there must come a point where paying those amounts to the community endowment fund becomes unsustainable.
posted by flabdablet at 8:06 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
My point exactly. Increasing land values don't make money ooze out of the ground; using increasing land values as a basis for public service funding means that funds have to be collected from landowners in some form, and as each landowner's assessed value increases, so do the amounts extracted from them. So unless landowners' income is growing faster than their land value is, there must come a point where paying those amounts to the community endowment fund becomes unsustainable.
posted by flabdablet at 8:06 PM on September 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
To be fair about using increasing land values as a basis for public services—this is an extremely standard way of financing public infrastructure, you see it most often associated with public transport and suburban railways. Municipalities and governments (can/should/do) tax unearned increments from increased land value when it's caused by public investment, or even act as their own land bank and developer, so that they can catch their own windfall gains. But there's only ever one bite of that cherry, as you say, it's no source of ongoing money.
Taxing any increasing value of private land, another Georgist favourite, is also good and cool and to be encouraged, but it only works so long as land actually is in private ownership and is an economic commodity—which does not seem to be what's proposed. You can have land in perpetual common trust, or you can have a taxable source of funds, but not both.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:04 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Taxing any increasing value of private land, another Georgist favourite, is also good and cool and to be encouraged, but it only works so long as land actually is in private ownership and is an economic commodity—which does not seem to be what's proposed. You can have land in perpetual common trust, or you can have a taxable source of funds, but not both.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:04 PM on September 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
But the economic problems are the least of the problems with this proposal, which is only the last in three or more hundred years of non-utopian utopias, which have 'abolishing politics' at the core of what they're about, and which do not want to engage with the problem of what happens when I, all my best mates, and enough numbers, and enough time and shamelessness, turn up to all the meetings, and put proposals to turn the well-meaning city into something else, let's say less like the Singapore of low taxes, high technology, cosmopolitanism, amazing food, and more like the Singapore of low unskilled wages, one-party rule, enforced familial policy, with permanent non-citizen classes...
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:17 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:17 PM on September 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
and is an economic commodity
which is arguably not what anybody's principal place of residence would be treated as in a just world, at least not until such time as the homeowner decided to sell up and move elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 1:53 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
which is arguably not what anybody's principal place of residence would be treated as in a just world, at least not until such time as the homeowner decided to sell up and move elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 1:53 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Haven't read the piece yet, just in to state that unless cars/trucks are outlawed in the city (so everyone HAS to take [disability accessible] public transport, then it's already set up to fail. Not even touching on water rights in the Southwest. Idiots should know better...
posted by sharp pointy objects at 9:17 AM on September 7, 2021
posted by sharp pointy objects at 9:17 AM on September 7, 2021
The book’s core argument is that private land ownership is to blame for rising inequality. Land in unoccupied areas is often worthless, George wrote, but gains value when people move nearby. [...] Lore is particularly attracted to the strain of Georgism that involves creating a trust that holds the land in a community and uses the income it generates to fund social services. From that idea, he’s come up with the modest proposal to start a private foundation
[...] Instead, Lore says, he just wants to supplement the existing system at a time when people have “The answer is not higher taxes. That’s socialism,” he says. “Let the land be owned by the people! But in a capitalistic sort of way.”
The American Psychiatry Association once published an op-ed by some white hippie psych in the 70s who criticized Frantz Fanon for being too radical with his justification for using violence against oppressors and I'm starting to think this was the wrong take.
posted by paimapi at 10:55 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
[...] Instead, Lore says, he just wants to supplement the existing system at a time when people have “The answer is not higher taxes. That’s socialism,” he says. “Let the land be owned by the people! But in a capitalistic sort of way.”
The American Psychiatry Association once published an op-ed by some white hippie psych in the 70s who criticized Frantz Fanon for being too radical with his justification for using violence against oppressors and I'm starting to think this was the wrong take.
posted by paimapi at 10:55 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've always felt that Georgism is round-about property tax, which is a worse and more easily gamed version than we currently have. Also, unless the property tax rates were confiscatory, it would still lead to sprawl at the edges because the property tax is not high enough to surpass the costs of developing the land. You can see this with ADUs in high land cost areas. Like 5% of the population builds one to defer the costs of their property because building them carries more risk and cost than adding on for the average person.
To be fair about using increasing land values as a basis for public services—this is an extremely standard way of financing public infrastructure, you see it most often associated with public transport and suburban railways.
It's pretty rare in the US, and only started gaining traction in the past few years. Yes, railroads did it historically, but most modern transit systems have rules against maxing property values and selling air rights or land rights. That's why so many transit stations are surrounded by parking.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:11 AM on September 7, 2021
To be fair about using increasing land values as a basis for public services—this is an extremely standard way of financing public infrastructure, you see it most often associated with public transport and suburban railways.
It's pretty rare in the US, and only started gaining traction in the past few years. Yes, railroads did it historically, but most modern transit systems have rules against maxing property values and selling air rights or land rights. That's why so many transit stations are surrounded by parking.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:11 AM on September 7, 2021
Speaking of getting there in general, fossil fuel free or not, and inclusivity... how are economically disadvantaged people supposed to get there in the first place? There are a lot of people who would benefit from this whatever plan, however fanciful and crazy it is, but couldn't afford to get there, period. It takes a lot of money to move a family. Do they have a relocation plan yet?
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:15 AM on September 7, 2021
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:15 AM on September 7, 2021
I actually think the water issues are overstated, and generally made worse by US-standard design and development guidelines, even in the desert. Toilet to tap recycling is already possible in multiple US cities, though most don't use it except in droughts because it's not popular nor generally necessary.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:16 AM on September 7, 2021
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:16 AM on September 7, 2021
Speaking of getting there in general, fossil fuel free or not, and inclusivity... how are economically disadvantaged people supposed to get there in the first place? There are a lot of people who would benefit from this whatever plan, however fanciful and crazy it is, but couldn't afford to get there, period. It takes a lot of money to move a family. Do they have a relocation plan yet?
There are highways and state roads everywhere. They can drive in and be dropped off at receiving stations, or take a bus. I don't get why this is a problem. People in the US do move around, even if it is expensive.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:18 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
There are highways and state roads everywhere. They can drive in and be dropped off at receiving stations, or take a bus. I don't get why this is a problem. People in the US do move around, even if it is expensive.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:18 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Cool...will the bus let me bring my couch and all my apartment stuff?
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:45 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:45 AM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
They can drive in and be dropped off at receiving stations....
There are lots of people who cannot afford to drive in, or take the bus, or move their things, etc. I mean really, there are people who can't afford enough food, let alone finance a move.
I was thinking more like a subsidized move paid for by the community, or a part of whatever public transportation system that could bring entire households into this place.
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:51 AM on September 7, 2021
There are lots of people who cannot afford to drive in, or take the bus, or move their things, etc. I mean really, there are people who can't afford enough food, let alone finance a move.
I was thinking more like a subsidized move paid for by the community, or a part of whatever public transportation system that could bring entire households into this place.
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:51 AM on September 7, 2021
Cool...will the bus let me bring my couch and all my apartment stuff?
Which makes me think of something else: will the people who own combustion engine vehicles be offered a free upgrade to a vehicle that is allowed? That might be in the links, I'm just not there yet.
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:57 AM on September 7, 2021
Which makes me think of something else: will the people who own combustion engine vehicles be offered a free upgrade to a vehicle that is allowed? That might be in the links, I'm just not there yet.
posted by Snowishberlin at 11:57 AM on September 7, 2021
There are lots of people who cannot afford to drive in, or take the bus, or move their things, etc
So what? This is not the only city in the US, nor will it be replacing the cities that people who cannot leave currently live in. I don't get this line of questioning. The latest census showed tons of people are still able to move around, even as the US gets less equitable. Not only that, the vast majority of college students in many cities in the US don't own personal transportation, but are still able to move across states.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:05 PM on September 7, 2021
So what? This is not the only city in the US, nor will it be replacing the cities that people who cannot leave currently live in. I don't get this line of questioning. The latest census showed tons of people are still able to move around, even as the US gets less equitable. Not only that, the vast majority of college students in many cities in the US don't own personal transportation, but are still able to move across states.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:05 PM on September 7, 2021
I'm pretty impressed this hasn't been slagged more by MeFi. It's one of the more ridiculous rich person fantasies I've personally ever heard.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:06 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:06 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
So what? The "so what" is that this sounds like it will hardly be equitable in the sense of who gets to live there. The lack of detail on that is sooo telling.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:08 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:08 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
I think the bears and the seasteads kind of raised our standards, tiny frying pan.
posted by clew at 12:09 PM on September 7, 2021
posted by clew at 12:09 PM on September 7, 2021
Slip! Standards w.r.t. mockery, not who gets to live there.
posted by clew at 12:10 PM on September 7, 2021
posted by clew at 12:10 PM on September 7, 2021
So what? The "so what" is that this sounds like it will hardly be equitable in the sense of who gets to live there. The lack of detail on that is sooo telling.
I mean, I don't get to live in Manhattan or San Francisco, and California, the most populous state in the US, is gaining higher income residents and losing lower income ones. I think you are assuming that where people live is currently more equitable than it actually is, and applying an expectation of equity that current cities do not abide by.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:20 PM on September 7, 2021
I mean, I don't get to live in Manhattan or San Francisco, and California, the most populous state in the US, is gaining higher income residents and losing lower income ones. I think you are assuming that where people live is currently more equitable than it actually is, and applying an expectation of equity that current cities do not abide by.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:20 PM on September 7, 2021
Which is fair enough, but I personally think your ire should be directed at existing places rather than some made up utopia that is nothing more than a thought in some guy's head.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:22 PM on September 7, 2021
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:22 PM on September 7, 2021
I admit I haven’t read every word on every page in the FPP, but none of what I’ve read has addressed how they would provide water, which is already a pretty fraught issue in the South West.
Up to 60% of the human adult body is water.
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:26 PM on September 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
Up to 60% of the human adult body is water.
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:26 PM on September 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
(They're drinking PEOPLE!)
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:29 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:29 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
mean, I don't get to live in Manhattan or San Francisco, and California, the most populous state in the US, is gaining higher income residents and losing lower income ones.
How is THIS city the most fair and inclusive city ever conceptualized then?
As for the other bit, I am unconcerned - I'm not harming this foolish idiot by saying his idea is foolish. My ire is directed, oh no!
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:54 PM on September 7, 2021
How is THIS city the most fair and inclusive city ever conceptualized then?
As for the other bit, I am unconcerned - I'm not harming this foolish idiot by saying his idea is foolish. My ire is directed, oh no!
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:54 PM on September 7, 2021
The question re. the poor isn’t how they get there; the question is what possible role they can have in a city where citizenship rights are defined by common ownership of a land asset that cannot grow (i.e. shareholding in the common stake). Presumably the city won’t infinitely give away a fraction of itself to any comer, so the poor will be as in any fantasy of this kind, docile workers on an hourly rate, making banh mi and pushing cleaning carts.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:42 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:42 PM on September 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
the question is what possible role they can have in a city...
This is a great question! I would ASSUME that in an inclusive city (their words, not mine) there would be opportunity for leadership, contribution, and growth for all that would celebrate and sustain their own cultures, cultural practices, and communities that they brought with them. Granted, new cultures and communities might arise in this project, but people are going to be where and what they came from.
As for the second half about land ownership... I have no idea. Maybe then it becomes a kind of stock option or something? I don't know a lot about those parts of things. Like dividends, maybe?
posted by Snowishberlin at 4:01 PM on September 7, 2021
This is a great question! I would ASSUME that in an inclusive city (their words, not mine) there would be opportunity for leadership, contribution, and growth for all that would celebrate and sustain their own cultures, cultural practices, and communities that they brought with them. Granted, new cultures and communities might arise in this project, but people are going to be where and what they came from.
As for the second half about land ownership... I have no idea. Maybe then it becomes a kind of stock option or something? I don't know a lot about those parts of things. Like dividends, maybe?
posted by Snowishberlin at 4:01 PM on September 7, 2021
I mean the problem of redistribution and services is not a technical problem to be solved, it's a political question where some people win and others lose. And there are really two options for a planned-city like this, one that has no political culture or community-in-place.
One of them is equitable and sharing, and welcoming of anyone who doesn't have any money, at which point every other municipality around looks at their underprivileged people and says to them, you've got problems with the law, drugs, drink? Between jobs? You're sick and a cost to our health budget? You retired without any savings? You're temporarily homeless? Why don't you fuck off to Telosa and die on their budget sheet? The other, far more likely, is a wealthyish city of people with enough money to buy their way in, and retain HOA-like rights on the basis of a cash stake, the first buyers-in becoming a new privileged class, pivoting instantly from wanting-in to 'I got mine' in the way of home owners across the developed world. It would behave exactly as a modern developed nation-state or city-Emirate does to outsiders; often welcoming, but on very firm terms.
The two options aren't mutually exclusive, either. The lack of detail about 'who gets to live there' isn't accidental, it's a silent pronunciation of very present ideas about what it means to be a 'citizen'.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:51 PM on September 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
One of them is equitable and sharing, and welcoming of anyone who doesn't have any money, at which point every other municipality around looks at their underprivileged people and says to them, you've got problems with the law, drugs, drink? Between jobs? You're sick and a cost to our health budget? You retired without any savings? You're temporarily homeless? Why don't you fuck off to Telosa and die on their budget sheet? The other, far more likely, is a wealthyish city of people with enough money to buy their way in, and retain HOA-like rights on the basis of a cash stake, the first buyers-in becoming a new privileged class, pivoting instantly from wanting-in to 'I got mine' in the way of home owners across the developed world. It would behave exactly as a modern developed nation-state or city-Emirate does to outsiders; often welcoming, but on very firm terms.
The two options aren't mutually exclusive, either. The lack of detail about 'who gets to live there' isn't accidental, it's a silent pronunciation of very present ideas about what it means to be a 'citizen'.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 4:51 PM on September 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
The lack of detail about 'who gets to live there' isn't accidental...
This, a lot.
posted by Snowishberlin at 2:20 PM on September 9, 2021
This, a lot.
posted by Snowishberlin at 2:20 PM on September 9, 2021
Another recent piece: A huge new city is being built in the US desert – but is it just greenwashing?
Which links to this piece about Vegas, re: water in the desert: ‘We live in a desert. We have to act like it’: Las Vegas faces reality of drought
posted by homunculus at 5:58 PM on September 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Which links to this piece about Vegas, re: water in the desert: ‘We live in a desert. We have to act like it’: Las Vegas faces reality of drought
posted by homunculus at 5:58 PM on September 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by GenjiandProust at 11:36 AM on September 6, 2021 [43 favorites]